WEBVTT 00:00:07.310 --> 00:00:10.710 Welcome to the Business Abundance Podcast, providing 00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:13.189 the tools and knowledge to help small business 00:00:13.189 --> 00:00:16.530 owners succeed. For additional resources, visit 00:00:16.530 --> 00:00:21.850 www .businessabundance .online. Welcome back 00:00:21.850 --> 00:00:24.510 to the Business Abundance Podcast. I'm Rhee. 00:00:24.870 --> 00:00:27.309 Oh, I'm Ian. I get to go this time. Cool. And 00:00:27.309 --> 00:00:30.129 welcome, I'm Rowan. Today, we'll be talking about 00:00:30.129 --> 00:00:33.030 micromanaging. I think most of us have probably 00:00:33.030 --> 00:00:35.490 experienced an overbearing manager at some point 00:00:35.490 --> 00:00:38.070 in our careers. When I worked in a call centre, 00:00:38.149 --> 00:00:40.649 we were constantly monitored. So our management 00:00:40.649 --> 00:00:42.549 always knew what we were doing at all times. 00:00:42.890 --> 00:00:44.770 Knew when I was on a break. Knew when I was on 00:00:44.770 --> 00:00:47.750 a call. Knew when I was finishing up. Knew if 00:00:47.750 --> 00:00:49.789 I tried to finish up early. Was there a toilet 00:00:49.789 --> 00:00:52.670 button? Oh yeah, personal break. I'm sorry, what? 00:00:53.130 --> 00:00:54.490 There's a button, particularly, that I'm going 00:00:54.490 --> 00:00:58.509 to the loo. No, you're having a lend. Really? 00:00:59.030 --> 00:01:00.909 Yeah, like whatever you were doing, it had to 00:01:00.909 --> 00:01:02.549 be monitored. There was a button for everything. 00:01:02.750 --> 00:01:04.310 Yep. Man, I've never worked in a call centre. 00:01:04.430 --> 00:01:06.590 This is awesome. Those that have been in a call 00:01:06.590 --> 00:01:08.810 centre once before, they're like, oh yeah, we 00:01:08.810 --> 00:01:10.250 know. And we need people listening right now. 00:01:10.329 --> 00:01:15.650 I've got PTSD. It's like hospitality PTSD, retail 00:01:15.650 --> 00:01:19.230 PTSD. Oh, you hear the call chimes, like the 00:01:19.230 --> 00:01:21.069 call chimes. They're like, they haunt me in my 00:01:21.069 --> 00:01:22.769 dream. When a call pops in, you'd hear like a 00:01:22.769 --> 00:01:26.750 chime. Sounds like a terrible place to work. 00:01:27.849 --> 00:01:30.430 That's why they have such high turnover. Yeah. 00:01:30.979 --> 00:01:33.439 It's also why they have such an ability to employ 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:35.799 so many people so quickly and get a pretty consistent 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:38.680 result for clients. But yeah, it's, I think I 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.120 lasted two and a half months. I think I already 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:43.219 told the story for the poll when I do it again. 00:01:43.219 --> 00:01:46.799 Eileen, I did a year and a half. But I dominated 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.500 my KPIs. Yeah, me too. And then they told me 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:51.079 I was a day late for my bonus period, so I didn't 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:53.120 get my bonus. And I was like, I'll see you later. 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:55.859 Oh, wow. This is terrible. So what's that got 00:01:55.859 --> 00:01:58.219 to do with micromanaging? That is micromanaging. 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.579 Oh, cool. What's an example? Yeah. Yesterday 00:02:00.579 --> 00:02:03.239 we were talking about micromanaging. Yeah. Yeah, 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:05.640 so there's cases where people would have been 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.379 micromanaged before. Yeah. And then there's probably 00:02:08.379 --> 00:02:10.699 some people out there going, gee, I'm not a micromanager. 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:13.500 That's not me. And maybe it is you. Maybe it's 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:17.060 not. Yeah. I never understood. Well, as I got 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:19.080 older, I think I understood when I was younger. 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.400 But then as I've got older, I've lost the understanding. 00:02:22.460 --> 00:02:24.139 Why would you hire someone who's really good 00:02:24.139 --> 00:02:25.560 at their job and then just tell them what to 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.960 do all the time? Because you like control. Control 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:31.960 freaks, you know the term? Straight to the answers. 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:33.580 So now you're saying if you micromanage you're 00:02:33.580 --> 00:02:35.520 a control freak. That is very aggressive to start 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:37.500 a podcast. I tell you what, every manager of 00:02:37.500 --> 00:02:39.699 every call centre right there is calling in. 00:02:39.939 --> 00:02:41.719 Lines have lit up if this was live. You might 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:43.139 be. Look at the stats of the podcast and it's 00:02:43.139 --> 00:02:45.539 going to be like one minute in, two minutes in 00:02:45.539 --> 00:02:47.620 and then everyone just drops off. Riann is insulted. 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:51.860 I can't believe you called most of our audience 00:02:51.860 --> 00:02:54.620 control freaks. It's just one option. It's not 00:02:54.620 --> 00:02:56.250 all the reason why you're a micromanager. Three 00:02:56.250 --> 00:02:58.030 reasons why you need to… Ree's out of control. 00:02:58.530 --> 00:03:00.710 Shocking. You should be a bit more of a micromanager. 00:03:01.009 --> 00:03:03.969 I should be. Yeah. I've said that before. He 00:03:03.969 --> 00:03:06.449 goes, oh, he's a micromanager. Then Ree's like, 00:03:06.669 --> 00:03:08.689 I've never seen her look so bewildered. Like, 00:03:08.789 --> 00:03:11.310 what on earth did you just say? Like, how? How 00:03:11.310 --> 00:03:15.310 did you get that out of this guy? She still can't 00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:17.599 talk. She's gone. We'll come back. We'll carry 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:19.460 her for a while. Yeah, I think we can. But yeah, 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.840 so what's micromanaging in? This is always the 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.699 hardest question when we can't continue for a 00:03:23.699 --> 00:03:25.960 while till we answer. I think the best way to 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.699 describe it would be to flatter you a little 00:03:28.699 --> 00:03:30.180 bit and say it's the complete opposite of you. 00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:32.319 That doesn't help anyone understand what it is 00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:33.539 because no one knows me. Yeah, but what's your 00:03:33.539 --> 00:03:35.539 management style? Basically let people figure 00:03:35.539 --> 00:03:36.979 it out and help them every now and then. Yeah, 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.159 so you employ the people that can do their job. 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:41.319 Hopefully. Yep. Yeah, you can get that wrong, 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.569 but yeah. You expect by the time you've employed 00:03:43.569 --> 00:03:44.629 them that you think they're going to be more 00:03:44.629 --> 00:03:47.250 than suitable, yes. And then not tell them every 00:03:47.250 --> 00:03:48.729 little bit of their job that they're doing wrong. 00:03:49.189 --> 00:03:51.449 All right. Yeah, so we've got to define micromanaging 00:03:51.449 --> 00:03:54.490 today by saying what it's not. Yeah. Yeah. I 00:03:54.490 --> 00:03:58.750 think that's a good way to define something. 00:03:59.069 --> 00:04:02.090 Well, I'll just define my way instead of micromanaging 00:04:02.090 --> 00:04:04.710 and then we'll go from there. But yeah, funny 00:04:04.710 --> 00:04:06.210 me what you said, you've chosen someone, you 00:04:06.210 --> 00:04:07.370 think they're going to be great at it, you've 00:04:07.370 --> 00:04:09.349 got them in that role. and then your job as a 00:04:09.349 --> 00:04:11.310 manager to give them the tools they need to succeed. 00:04:12.009 --> 00:04:14.250 And one of those is usually not been in the way. 00:04:14.629 --> 00:04:18.230 So you are taking everything out of the way that's 00:04:18.230 --> 00:04:20.870 going to make them their day less enjoyable, 00:04:21.269 --> 00:04:23.990 less productive, whatever it is, get all that 00:04:23.990 --> 00:04:26.009 stuff out of their way, which is usually the 00:04:26.009 --> 00:04:27.689 manager, which probably is me half the time, 00:04:27.990 --> 00:04:31.970 and then back them to succeed. But micromanaging 00:04:31.970 --> 00:04:33.970 is a very, very common thing. And there's lots 00:04:33.970 --> 00:04:37.389 of reasonable people might do it. And that's 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:39.810 just when you're constantly on people's backs. 00:04:40.430 --> 00:04:43.230 Just to backtrack for a second. How do you find 00:04:43.230 --> 00:04:45.810 good people? Where he's back. How do you find 00:04:45.810 --> 00:04:47.490 good people? I mean, she did need to backtrack 00:04:47.490 --> 00:04:49.149 after calling a lot of people to control her. 00:04:50.589 --> 00:04:53.870 We lost her again. How do you find good people? 00:04:54.009 --> 00:04:56.370 I feel like that's a whole podcast. Did we do 00:04:56.370 --> 00:04:58.430 that yet? If we haven't, it'll be coming because 00:04:58.430 --> 00:05:01.660 everyone wants to know. There's hours on, how 00:05:01.660 --> 00:05:03.060 do you get good people? Everyone's just going, 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.160 oh, tell me, please. How do you get good accountants? 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.939 How do you get good accountants? Yeah. Well, 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:09.600 it's not a whole podcast for accounting firms, 00:05:09.660 --> 00:05:12.139 but yeah, it's hard to get at the moment. Oh, 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:13.879 we've got a few, luckily. Sounds like a challenge. 00:05:15.699 --> 00:05:19.060 All right. So how do you get good people? We 00:05:19.060 --> 00:05:21.459 can definitely do another podcast in the future. 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.560 And then once that podcast comes out, we'll link 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:24.980 it down to the bottom of this so you can actually 00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:29.060 find it, jump to it. Yeah, you might need to 00:05:29.060 --> 00:05:30.779 micromanage if you haven't got the right people. 00:05:31.699 --> 00:05:34.360 Sounds exhausting, micromanaging. It's basically 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.259 like giving excessive supervision to people. 00:05:37.620 --> 00:05:40.680 Like, you're always handing out task after task 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:42.819 after task, making sure that you know what everybody 00:05:42.819 --> 00:05:46.180 is doing, sometimes doing it for them, because 00:05:46.180 --> 00:05:47.860 they may have already done it, but you're like, 00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:50.000 no, that's not how I want it done, so I'm going 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.620 to do it for you anyway. It kind of evokes like 00:05:52.620 --> 00:05:56.569 a sense of distrust in people. Unable to. Oh, 00:05:56.569 --> 00:05:59.170 OK, well, I'm not doing things the way I need 00:05:59.170 --> 00:06:01.649 to be doing them. Why aren't I good enough? I 00:06:01.649 --> 00:06:03.689 don't want to relinquish that control as well 00:06:03.689 --> 00:06:09.670 as a manager slash business owner. Control freaks, 00:06:09.889 --> 00:06:12.850 again. Rufus. Well, it's not necessarily control 00:06:12.850 --> 00:06:15.009 freaks. Maybe it is, I suppose. You can bring 00:06:15.009 --> 00:06:18.050 everything back to that. But if you've got, maybe 00:06:18.050 --> 00:06:19.529 you're not doing so well, you're not getting 00:06:19.529 --> 00:06:21.050 the right results. Maybe you've got the right 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:23.769 people. Maybe they were great and then they're 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:26.129 not anymore. and you're like, I've tried everything 00:06:26.129 --> 00:06:27.970 and nothing's working and you're just frustrated. 00:06:28.089 --> 00:06:30.009 So I've got to literally keep my eye on everything. 00:06:30.689 --> 00:06:32.490 That's going to cause micromanaging, isn't it? 00:06:33.250 --> 00:06:35.009 I think if you're already stressed, if you're 00:06:35.009 --> 00:06:38.009 already heightened to what's going on, if you're 00:06:38.009 --> 00:06:40.589 having cashflow issues or you're having, you 00:06:40.589 --> 00:06:41.930 know, you're not getting enough sales, not as 00:06:41.930 --> 00:06:46.089 many sales as you want to be getting. Sounds 00:06:46.089 --> 00:06:48.949 exhausting. So, you know, there's lots of reasons 00:06:48.949 --> 00:06:50.649 why people do it. Micromanaging fundamentally 00:06:50.649 --> 00:06:54.050 the answer to the question is that you're hassling 00:06:54.050 --> 00:06:55.930 people. you're managing things that you shouldn't 00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:58.050 be managing, you're looking at stuff that probably 00:06:58.050 --> 00:06:59.870 you don't need to, you don't want too much of 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:02.329 it. So we've talked about what is micromanaging 00:07:02.329 --> 00:07:04.310 now, and we mentioned a few reasons as why it 00:07:04.310 --> 00:07:07.610 might occur. But, you know, why do you think 00:07:07.610 --> 00:07:10.410 a call centre manages to that sort of degree? 00:07:11.269 --> 00:07:13.629 Probably because they're paid a lot of money 00:07:13.629 --> 00:07:17.629 by very large and important firms to consistently 00:07:17.629 --> 00:07:20.189 deliver the same results. Yeah, and how's that 00:07:20.189 --> 00:07:22.730 firm going to tell if they're delivering or not? 00:07:22.889 --> 00:07:24.550 Well, they're going to want reports on their 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:26.610 KPIs and things like that. And they want to know 00:07:26.610 --> 00:07:29.009 all these key numbers. So then the managers need 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:31.170 to know all those key numbers, which I'm not 00:07:31.170 --> 00:07:34.149 against whatsoever. Don't get me wrong. But then 00:07:34.149 --> 00:07:36.529 where does it become overbearing for an employee? 00:07:37.470 --> 00:07:40.569 Is there systems like call center systems and 00:07:40.569 --> 00:07:44.110 processes? Is that micromanaging? It could be. 00:07:44.290 --> 00:07:47.029 The thing is how it's laid out. If I'm looking 00:07:47.029 --> 00:07:49.769 at it and I remember what I did, we had to get 00:07:49.769 --> 00:07:53.540 off calls for half to two minutes. And that was 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:56.660 the definition of a success. So some people just 00:07:56.660 --> 00:07:59.579 would hang out and hope that they weren't having 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:02.639 a mystery listener in doing for a coaching, which 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:04.680 was probably one in a hundred calls. You just 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:07.180 pot luck. So, oh yeah, we'll get OK. We'll just 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:08.699 hang up on this person because they're not listening 00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:10.220 to me or I don't know what to do. And the next 00:08:10.220 --> 00:08:11.819 poor person will get on put no nose in the system 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:17.620 and no one knows me. We had in person. So there 00:08:17.620 --> 00:08:19.819 was like no mystery quality assurance. It was 00:08:19.819 --> 00:08:22.120 like. the quality insurance team member come 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:23.980 up and be like, I'm going to sit next to you 00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.160 and watch everything you do right next to you 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:28.480 for a whole engagement. That's much better than 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:30.560 us because we were like, we're going to sit in 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:31.920 another room, you're not even going to know with 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.960 the ear. Yeah, we had those as well, but we also 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.179 had the ones where they sit next to you. And 00:08:36.179 --> 00:08:38.960 it's like terrifying. You're like, oh, I made 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:40.919 more mistakes when I had someone sitting next 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.139 to me than I did on any of my other engagements. 00:08:44.179 --> 00:08:45.860 This is a downside to the micromanaging when 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:48.669 it gets... to overbearing, then you've got performance 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:51.710 issues. But, yeah, what is over the line? Because 00:08:51.710 --> 00:08:53.730 some of those metrics are required to know that 00:08:53.730 --> 00:08:56.129 people are doing a good job. And you can go, 00:08:56.250 --> 00:09:00.149 well, the time of a call is important, but maybe 00:09:00.149 --> 00:09:01.629 it's important to what they get paid, maybe it's 00:09:01.629 --> 00:09:03.009 important because it's an indicator of a good 00:09:03.009 --> 00:09:05.570 result, but maybe it's not. What if you can't 00:09:05.570 --> 00:09:08.009 answer a customer's questions in that time frame? 00:09:08.009 --> 00:09:09.490 Correct. And then you're not delivering good 00:09:09.490 --> 00:09:11.389 value to the client? And that's not a problem, 00:09:11.429 --> 00:09:13.389 but then you go, OK, well, what's micromanaging 00:09:13.389 --> 00:09:17.009 there? It's... To me, it would be when we're 00:09:17.009 --> 00:09:20.269 using those numbers and we're spending more time 00:09:20.269 --> 00:09:23.250 monitoring and coaching and checking and pushing 00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:25.610 it in front of people, we're spending too much 00:09:25.610 --> 00:09:27.750 time on that rather than, hey, here's your numbers 00:09:27.750 --> 00:09:30.690 just so you know, and they're good, and good 00:09:30.690 --> 00:09:34.730 work. Instead of going, okay, your average break, 00:09:35.190 --> 00:09:37.570 and I remember back to when I was young, Buck 00:09:37.570 --> 00:09:41.419 18, and I think this was a... from my recollection, 00:09:41.539 --> 00:09:43.159 which might've changed over the years, but I'm 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:45.679 pretty sure I remember it correctly, was, oh 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:47.720 yeah, really good numbers last week. Yeah, the 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:49.980 only thing, your breaks, you average 10 minutes 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:51.720 in one second. You don't want to get that below 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:53.539 10, like you should be, but you're back at 10 00:09:53.539 --> 00:09:56.700 minutes. One second. Yep. So that's when you 00:09:56.700 --> 00:09:57.740 go, okay, we're monitoring all these things. 00:09:57.820 --> 00:09:59.000 Hey, you know, everything's fantastic. That's 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:01.879 a little bit over. Yeah. You obviously had a 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:03.379 bit of a thing, something happened there, but 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:06.120 you know, you'll be fine. Rather than, hey, get 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:08.759 that back in line. See, for me, that sounds more 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:12.059 like a process than a micromanagement situation. 00:10:12.179 --> 00:10:14.100 Yeah, well, the process is to micromanage. Yeah. 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:17.000 And another case, I think Ria and I had different 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:18.659 experiences. Like once a month, we got told our 00:10:18.659 --> 00:10:20.620 numbers and told to ship in shape. But if we 00:10:20.620 --> 00:10:22.679 were back late for a break, like we're 12 minutes 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:24.740 instead of 10, your manager would be at your 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:27.000 desk five minutes later, like... Yeah, now that's 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:28.980 micromanaging. Push the... You go out of the 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:30.120 call queue and they're like, what's happening? 00:10:30.220 --> 00:10:32.679 That's micromanaging. We'd get messages if we 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.789 weren't in the call queue for... That's a word. 00:10:36.809 --> 00:10:38.870 Cork you. Cork you. That's two words. That's 00:10:38.870 --> 00:10:41.409 why I had trouble. Yes, it's not hyphenated. 00:10:43.529 --> 00:10:45.570 Yeah, so they check on you because they can see 00:10:45.570 --> 00:10:48.110 all your things. So that's where it becomes an 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:49.789 issue. You've got too many managers for the people 00:10:49.789 --> 00:10:51.450 and then the managers trying to justify their 00:10:51.450 --> 00:10:53.590 decisions or keep themselves busy because they're 00:10:53.590 --> 00:10:56.590 bored. We were displayed on a wall as well. So 00:10:56.590 --> 00:10:59.429 good. So we could see what each other was doing. 00:11:00.710 --> 00:11:03.639 No, you had seats. I'm slightly a leader, so 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:04.940 I kind of think that if everyone's on board, 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:06.759 I think it's fantastic. The competition doesn't 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:09.120 go astray. But then you have like this new recruit 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:11.120 sitting next to you and they're like, oh, why 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.080 aren't you back in a call yet? Yeah. I'm like, 00:11:13.220 --> 00:11:15.320 excuse me, you've been here five minutes. Yeah. 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:19.139 Don't you double on me. But yeah, you find like 00:11:19.139 --> 00:11:22.100 in the call set scenario, if someone's like they've 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:23.860 got 10 people to manage, like do they really 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:26.019 need to? The numbers are all there. It's there 00:11:26.019 --> 00:11:27.620 to be displayed. It's obvious someone can go 00:11:27.620 --> 00:11:29.259 once a week, look through them and decipher it 00:11:29.259 --> 00:11:31.299 all in an hour. Why do you need someone sitting 00:11:31.299 --> 00:11:33.259 there managing 10 people and just being on them 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:37.500 like a hawk? The danger becomes you end up with 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:40.379 a bureaucratic system of people justifying their 00:11:40.379 --> 00:11:43.590 position to maintain a wage. Yep. And then you 00:11:43.590 --> 00:11:45.190 look at that and you go, well, people burn out 00:11:45.190 --> 00:11:46.909 pretty quickly because they're on a call, on 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:48.669 a call, on a call, on a call. Everything's monitored. 00:11:48.830 --> 00:11:50.409 Everything's tracked. It's all down to the second. 00:11:51.570 --> 00:11:54.149 And what's the focus of what does the company 00:11:54.149 --> 00:11:57.389 want? Some companies want the lowest costs, which 00:11:57.389 --> 00:11:59.870 doesn't always work out. Some companies want 00:11:59.870 --> 00:12:02.210 the best result. So what's the metric for that? 00:12:02.289 --> 00:12:04.750 Sometimes you can't measure those things or you 00:12:04.750 --> 00:12:06.870 won't get the feedback. Happy clients won't do 00:12:06.870 --> 00:12:09.570 a survey. Fine, no worries. They're not there 00:12:09.570 --> 00:12:11.429 to do a survey. It's problem solved or whatever 00:12:11.429 --> 00:12:14.100 it is they need. it's been out of focus on the 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:17.019 right thing rather than the fine details. And 00:12:17.019 --> 00:12:18.879 so call centers need this level of detail, one, 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:20.480 to show, hey, we're doing our job and we get 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.240 paid. And that's what the customers are demanding. 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:23.740 And that's fine, I have no issues with that. 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:27.679 But they also need it because their staff probably 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.200 haven't been in the industry before. It's a lower 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.379 paid position. It's for a position for anyone. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:34.700 They take people in and inductions of 30 people 00:12:34.700 --> 00:12:38.220 at a time. And then after a week, They're in 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:39.580 the call line. They know nothing. They follow 00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:41.360 a script. They follow a process, which is a good 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.539 example of a systematized process business. If 00:12:43.539 --> 00:12:44.860 they can do it, well, you should be able to do 00:12:44.860 --> 00:12:47.240 it. But they also churn through those employees 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:49.700 really quickly because of the micromanagement. 00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:52.879 And you think if the recruitment cost would be 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.120 quite high, the turnover cost would be quite 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.720 high if they could maybe not micromanage so much, 00:12:57.759 --> 00:12:59.960 but still show a client the good results and 00:12:59.960 --> 00:13:02.519 still see if things are okay. They'll keep the 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:04.200 good people in the industry. Maybe they can pay 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:05.580 them a little bit more. Maybe they can get all 00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:07.600 those numbers down in a different way. Can you 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:10.259 think of any ways to try and find that balance? 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:12.679 Yeah, maybe just focus on the right numbers. 00:13:13.220 --> 00:13:15.759 But like, if they're doing coaching calls and 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:17.860 you've got people that 99 % of the time are doing 00:13:17.860 --> 00:13:21.480 a good job, like, leave them alone. That's just 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:23.100 one example. Like, we're talking about call center 00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:24.940 now, but for a lot of people, their businesses 00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:28.039 aren't call center. They aren't call centers. 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:31.259 So, you know, let's look at some other examples. 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.519 Well, let's, yeah, let's look at a mum and popping. 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.100 industry, for instance, and you might just be 00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:39.100 starting to employ people. This is your baby. 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:40.639 This is your business. This is your passion. 00:13:41.139 --> 00:13:42.740 Yep. And you've brought on a name on the door. 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.519 Yep. Your name on the door. You've got a fancy 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.679 logo that you've paid some legends to create 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.139 and it's all over the place and signage is up 00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:53.940 and you've just started employing people and 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:57.100 you can't let it go. It has to be done my way. 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:02.059 How do you minimize the opportunities or minimize 00:14:02.059 --> 00:14:05.409 the risk of Micromanaging in that situation when 00:14:05.409 --> 00:14:08.090 you all you want people who has reinvested in 00:14:08.090 --> 00:14:11.970 the job as you are but you own the place Yeah, 00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:14.470 how do you get away from that? Yeah, it's fairly 00:14:14.470 --> 00:14:17.549 to unpack. Yeah, it's big for a bit. Sorry about 00:14:17.549 --> 00:14:20.629 that. Yeah So hopefully I remember all the different 00:14:20.629 --> 00:14:22.950 ones to go back to but yeah, so you've got your 00:14:22.950 --> 00:14:25.049 own business as your pride and joy You know you 00:14:25.049 --> 00:14:27.090 do everything and you're taking employees in 00:14:27.090 --> 00:14:30.110 I think part of it has been out of a step that 00:14:30.110 --> 00:14:33.199 maybe it's not going to be your level but your 00:14:33.199 --> 00:14:35.740 level's probably reasonably high. If you've been 00:14:35.740 --> 00:14:37.379 doing a good job, you've got it perfect, you've 00:14:37.379 --> 00:14:40.720 got a damn hat, well, how is someone going to 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.980 do it perfect the first time? Like they're not. 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:45.559 So you want to try to recruit someone, which 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.820 obviously is a podcast episode coming up. You 00:14:49.820 --> 00:14:51.480 want to recruit someone who you think is going 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:53.080 to be good at the job, give them the best chance 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:55.120 of success, because everyone's got a role. You 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.559 don't put people in a role that they're not going 00:14:57.559 --> 00:14:59.240 to be suited for. So you choose someone that 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:00.950 you think is going to be the best. and hopefully 00:15:00.950 --> 00:15:03.450 they are, and if they're not, then find something 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:05.350 else for them or move them on and free up their 00:15:05.350 --> 00:15:06.610 future, as I say, because they'll be unhappy, 00:15:06.710 --> 00:15:07.929 you'll be unhappy, everyone will be happy, and 00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:09.809 they'll find something else, it'll be fine. They'll 00:15:09.809 --> 00:15:12.470 be happier. What's the system? What's the process? 00:15:12.570 --> 00:15:14.830 What's the framework? I'm big for sort of guidelines 00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:16.649 and frameworks. You can have a detailed process, 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:19.129 100 % that's fine, but once people understand 00:15:19.129 --> 00:15:20.909 that detailed process or they're new and they 00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:22.409 need to follow the detailed process, there's 00:15:22.409 --> 00:15:25.029 a guideline. Here's the five key things that 00:15:25.029 --> 00:15:27.289 our theory of what needs to be important, you 00:15:27.289 --> 00:15:28.950 know, for us is, yeah, you talk to the people. 00:15:29.929 --> 00:15:31.450 Yeah, number one, you talk to people. You don't 00:15:31.450 --> 00:15:32.789 just follow, do the job. You do the greatest 00:15:32.789 --> 00:15:34.090 job in the world. But if you didn't talk to them, 00:15:34.490 --> 00:15:36.990 like, we want to talk to people. So that would 00:15:36.990 --> 00:15:39.610 be a guideline. But then a process would be you 00:15:39.610 --> 00:15:41.610 go to the job, you open the job, you check the 00:15:41.610 --> 00:15:43.129 client's information is right in the system. 00:15:43.409 --> 00:15:44.809 You put this in the system, you put that in the 00:15:44.809 --> 00:15:46.649 system. You open this document, you put the details 00:15:46.649 --> 00:15:49.029 in, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is kind of 00:15:49.029 --> 00:15:51.629 micromanaging. But you have that process in place 00:15:51.629 --> 00:15:53.990 before you give it to someone. So then obviously 00:15:53.990 --> 00:15:55.870 you can go through that with them. You can show 00:15:55.870 --> 00:15:58.250 them how to do it. They can read how to do it. 00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:01.580 They can see you do it. then they can do it themselves 00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:04.980 with you. So potentially you've got a healthy 00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:08.279 level of micromanaging in the induction process. 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:10.240 What's called training? Induction. Yeah. That's 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.139 not micromanaging. No. That's learning. Yeah. 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.500 But then relinquishing that control could be 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:20.139 where it becomes a difficulty for some. Yeah. 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:22.179 And I feel like a lot of people would be listening 00:16:22.179 --> 00:16:23.500 right now. They're like, yeah, well, if they 00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:24.700 learned it and there was a process and they did 00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:26.820 it right, I wouldn't need to micromanage. That's 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:29.409 not what happens. I don't do it right. And there 00:16:29.409 --> 00:16:30.970 can be many reasons for that. It could be they 00:16:30.970 --> 00:16:33.210 physically can't or mentally they can't do it. 00:16:33.409 --> 00:16:36.649 It could be they don't care. And that could be 00:16:36.649 --> 00:16:37.789 because you're micro -engineering all the time. 00:16:38.210 --> 00:16:39.909 It could be because they're upset about something 00:16:39.909 --> 00:16:41.690 else or something about a day. There's a million 00:16:41.690 --> 00:16:43.570 different reasons, but it's identifying what's 00:16:43.570 --> 00:16:45.649 stopping that person from performing. So going 00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:48.789 back a few steps, management, your job as a manager 00:16:48.789 --> 00:16:52.129 is to remove roadblocks. Yeah. Help people get 00:16:52.129 --> 00:16:54.590 better. Empower people to be good at their job. 00:16:54.750 --> 00:16:57.309 Yeah. And sometimes people look at things like 00:16:57.309 --> 00:16:58.850 a receptionist. I've got a really good receptionist. 00:16:59.149 --> 00:17:02.509 She's so good. He's so good. Whatever. This person's 00:17:02.509 --> 00:17:05.289 so good. I don't want them to move on. I don't 00:17:05.289 --> 00:17:06.329 want them to do something different because I'm 00:17:06.329 --> 00:17:07.490 going to reception. It's not going to be as good. 00:17:07.930 --> 00:17:09.890 But why would that person do anything good for 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:11.769 you? Because you're holding them back. They're 00:17:11.769 --> 00:17:13.910 still the same thing. They're bored. Like, yeah, 00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:15.289 they're going to muck up mundane tasks because 00:17:15.289 --> 00:17:16.930 they're not paying attention. It's just mundane. 00:17:18.370 --> 00:17:20.329 So it's part of it is looking at it and go, okay, 00:17:20.390 --> 00:17:22.089 well, what's causing this person to not be able 00:17:22.089 --> 00:17:24.910 to do it and be realistic. And that's not, let's 00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:29.589 go crack the rib. But you've also got the side 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:31.490 and people probably listening and go, yeah, we've 00:17:31.490 --> 00:17:33.009 done that. We've tried to do this. We've tried 00:17:33.009 --> 00:17:35.390 to do that. And it's still not, but there's probably 00:17:35.390 --> 00:17:36.690 other things you haven't done. Maybe someone 00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:39.089 else at work is not doing their job and you don't 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:42.490 do anything about it. You've got no obvious plan. 00:17:42.950 --> 00:17:45.309 You just actively ignore it. Everyone knows it. 00:17:45.859 --> 00:17:47.440 So then why would they do their job when there's 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.579 other persons? So it might not be this person's 00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:51.819 actually the problem. You might be doing something 00:17:51.819 --> 00:17:55.539 else. There's lots of different factors that 00:17:55.539 --> 00:17:57.619 could cause someone to do it. And then it comes 00:17:57.619 --> 00:18:00.119 down to it that if they just can't do it for 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:04.140 the future. Yep. Yeah. What's the flip side? 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:05.960 You just need to sit there and micromanage them 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:07.359 all the time and you double check everything 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:09.079 all the time. Well, that's not practical. It's 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:13.160 not sustainable as a business. Move on, get someone 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:16.269 else. If you've gone through five people, probably 00:18:16.269 --> 00:18:17.390 need to look at yourself and what you're doing, 00:18:17.769 --> 00:18:20.930 and if you can't do that, get some help. That'd 00:18:20.930 --> 00:18:22.730 be a culture problem. Yeah, a culture problem 00:18:22.730 --> 00:18:24.529 or what you're doing problem, or whether there's 00:18:24.529 --> 00:18:26.490 no process or it's not possible or whatever. 00:18:27.069 --> 00:18:28.690 Maybe if you get to that point, you should think 00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:32.130 about employing a manager. Get a manager for 00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:34.809 your business. Yeah, and hope they're not a micromanager. 00:18:36.350 --> 00:18:37.970 You know what I mean? It's an interesting point. 00:18:38.109 --> 00:18:39.490 A lot of people in business are really good at 00:18:39.490 --> 00:18:40.690 what you do. You're good at talking to the clients. 00:18:40.769 --> 00:18:42.470 You're good at doing the job and you just don't 00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:44.130 get the people stuff. You don't get the management 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:45.950 stuff. You just can't do it. Well, no problems. 00:18:46.309 --> 00:18:48.049 Employ a manager. Employ someone to do a job 00:18:48.049 --> 00:18:49.829 for you. Do that. Then you don't have to do it. 00:18:49.849 --> 00:18:52.269 You've got to trust them though. Get the right 00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:53.670 people. And you've got to get the right numbers 00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:55.289 and the right metrics. Like the call center is 00:18:55.289 --> 00:18:57.049 saying, having those numbers isn't necessarily 00:18:57.049 --> 00:18:59.609 a bad thing, but it's using them realistically 00:18:59.609 --> 00:19:01.470 and being able to see what's going on and having 00:19:01.470 --> 00:19:05.700 that picture. That's required. But not been over 00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:07.480 the top with the manager every day on where's 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:08.900 this? Where's this? Where's this? Where's this? 00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:10.819 Like you something's gonna go bad You've got 00:19:10.819 --> 00:19:13.319 to let it go so they can learn they can improve 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:14.960 they can take it on board. They can be about 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.380 Yeah Yeah, so we got mom and dad's business and 00:19:18.380 --> 00:19:20.799 there's one there's one little thing going on 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:22.480 They can't let it go or can't let the books go 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:23.779 and we can't let this phone call go and we've 00:19:23.779 --> 00:19:25.539 got to deal with every client and all this person 00:19:25.539 --> 00:19:26.940 coming all that gonna be a big client I'm just 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:29.119 gonna ran and get them. I will take it off this 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:30.980 person. It's like well, how can that person grow? 00:19:31.299 --> 00:19:35.829 Yeah, so tell most people that start with us, 00:19:36.089 --> 00:19:37.890 like, yeah, sometimes you won't do anything for 00:19:37.890 --> 00:19:40.549 a day. Like, don't tell me you're working, just 00:19:40.549 --> 00:19:44.450 say I didn't do anything. I assume you want to 00:19:44.450 --> 00:19:46.750 do stuff. I assume you want to get better. If 00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:47.829 you never do anything, you're not going to have 00:19:47.829 --> 00:19:49.690 opportunities here. You know, it's obvious when 00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:51.589 you, it's really obvious when people don't work, 00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:54.329 you know, it's so obvious. You don't need numbers 00:19:54.329 --> 00:19:57.369 or anything to tell you that, but they need to 00:19:57.369 --> 00:19:59.970 learn how to do those things for themselves. 00:20:00.390 --> 00:20:02.730 You're talking about the... previous generation, 00:20:02.890 --> 00:20:04.549 the young kids these days and they need their 00:20:04.549 --> 00:20:06.490 dopamine and things like that. But yeah, they 00:20:06.490 --> 00:20:07.789 come out of school and everything's done and 00:20:07.789 --> 00:20:08.849 they've got to do this and they have to do this 00:20:08.849 --> 00:20:10.230 and they have to do this. So we don't want to 00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:12.450 say you have to do it. But if you're able to 00:20:12.450 --> 00:20:15.150 do things yourself, yeah, got a place here. Yep. 00:20:15.369 --> 00:20:18.470 So that comes at a cost where you're wasting 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:22.309 money that day. But at other times, what are 00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:24.410 you getting back? When the fund says learn how 00:20:24.410 --> 00:20:26.069 to solve that problem, you're making that money 00:20:26.069 --> 00:20:28.990 back. Most businesses don't need people to be 00:20:28.990 --> 00:20:30.950 at 100 % productivity all the time to make money. 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:33.720 So you've got to factor that in as a cost to 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.259 where people are learning. You know, even we 00:20:37.259 --> 00:20:39.720 give projects internally here to people and I'm 00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:41.019 probably not quite ready. They have guidance, 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:43.400 they have some things to follow. They can ask 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:45.140 questions at all times, like we're not going 00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:47.299 to let it go wrong. But we're happy for them 00:20:47.299 --> 00:20:48.539 to waste two days trying to figure something 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:50.980 out. Because how are you going to learn? How 00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:52.720 are you going to learn how things work and why 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:55.140 they work that way? If I'm always just telling 00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.119 Rhiannon, you do this and then you do this and 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:58.220 then you do this and then you send it to this 00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:00.940 person, it's fine, she did it. But the next time 00:21:00.940 --> 00:21:02.660 it comes along, she's got to remember that exact 00:21:02.660 --> 00:21:04.720 process. She won't understand why we do this 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.940 and this and this. So I say, oh, someone needs 00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:09.619 help with the cash flow. We've got all these 00:21:09.619 --> 00:21:11.940 reasons. This happened last week, actually. Maybe 00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:15.019 even this week, it's Friday. What's the plan 00:21:15.019 --> 00:21:16.819 for the cash flow? So here's some things we've 00:21:16.819 --> 00:21:19.059 already got in place. Forgotten, not all of them 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:20.680 implemented. Let's write them down, put them 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:22.460 in a plan. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Here you go. 00:21:22.539 --> 00:21:24.339 Here's some. Now you go research and add some. 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.220 They might be good. They might be bad. Doesn't 00:21:27.220 --> 00:21:28.519 matter. She's going to spend a couple of days 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:30.500 trying to figure out cash flow for herself. Is 00:21:30.500 --> 00:21:34.700 that good? I think so. But at least you get a 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:36.539 head around it, how it works and why things work 00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.460 that way. And you've got to think about people 00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:41.259 are people. They're independent. They have their 00:21:41.259 --> 00:21:43.680 own brains. So you've got to let them come to 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.980 their own way of doing things. And when you micromanage, 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.279 there's no opportunity for people to use their 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.859 own brains. So you brought up the older generation 00:21:51.859 --> 00:21:56.009 and before. it sometimes feels like it's a bit 00:21:56.009 --> 00:21:58.210 of a self -fulfilling prophecy. We've hired these 00:21:58.210 --> 00:21:59.789 young people and they can't do the job, so I'll 00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:04.009 do it for them. I've got to do it my way. Job 00:22:04.009 --> 00:22:05.210 done right, you've got to do it yourself? Yeah, 00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:08.769 that sort of mentality, which then creates dependent 00:22:08.769 --> 00:22:11.710 employees, which want to be micromanaged, or 00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:13.269 probably don't want to be, but are used to being 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:15.970 micromanaged and that's easy, instead of thinking 00:22:15.970 --> 00:22:17.980 for yourself. Yeah, it's interesting. Even that 00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:19.920 saying, it's probably misrepresented. If you 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:21.240 want something done right, you do it yourself. 00:22:21.619 --> 00:22:23.519 And it's not saying you do it yourself all the 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:25.740 time. It's saying if you want a guaranteed result, 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.819 do it yourself. But it's not saying you have 00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:32.940 to do it yourself all the time. So you're looking 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:35.859 to replicate yourself in your employees? Well, 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.440 yeah, we'll make them the best they can be. So 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:40.240 they might get to your level, they might get 00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.740 further. The way I view it is everyone that we're 00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:46.400 helping, whether it's a client or employee. how 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.440 good can they be? What do they want to be? Like, 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:50.299 can we help them get there? You wouldn't want 00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:52.240 to replicate yourself. If you're replicating 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:54.559 yourself, then you're limiting what the business 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.720 is going to do, because if people don't think 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:58.559 for themselves, they don't come up with new ideas 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.200 for you. And it's sometimes a really good idea 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.519 to have a new perspective on things that you 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:03.819 probably wouldn't have thought of on your own. 00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:10.000 100%. I hate myself anyway. But um, fire me in 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:15.220 a day. But no, you're 100 % right. So like, You 00:23:15.220 --> 00:23:17.319 don't know what you don't know. And by letting 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:20.200 people come to their own conclusions, obviously 00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:21.839 you want systems and processes. And this is how 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:23.380 we do it. We do a training, we do an induction. 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:25.420 You get people to a point, yeah, you know they 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:27.039 can do it. You can see that they can do it. You 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:28.420 can see that they've done it multiple times. 00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:30.500 You know they can do it. So after that, if they're 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:33.319 mucking up, there's something else. But after 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:35.519 that point, it's let people be people, let people 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:36.700 figure it out, because they'll figure better 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:39.839 ways. older generation, oh, so we do it because 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:41.720 it always works, you know, but we've got technology 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:42.900 coming through, we've got these other things. 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:44.720 So maybe they change it, maybe it doesn't go 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.059 wrong. What's the worst can happen? You just 00:23:46.059 --> 00:23:49.180 change it back. Yep. Does that mean you shouldn't 00:23:49.180 --> 00:23:51.259 try in the future? No. Does that mean you should 00:23:51.259 --> 00:23:54.059 manage, micromanage everything they do? No. But 00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:55.779 yeah, Ray, that's a really good point. If you, 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.480 if you micromanage, you are never going to get 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.000 good ideas out of people. Killing innovation 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.259 potentially. Yeah. Why do you think that is? 00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:06.470 I think that comes down to the difference between 00:24:06.470 --> 00:24:08.630 having a manager and having someone who leads 00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:11.849 people. Yeah, okay. That's actually two different 00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:13.990 roles, to be honest. But yeah, it's 100 % right. 00:24:15.230 --> 00:24:18.049 What's the difference? A manager tends to focus 00:24:18.049 --> 00:24:20.190 on systems and procedures and things that are 00:24:20.190 --> 00:24:22.609 already in place. Adherence. Maybe try and make 00:24:22.609 --> 00:24:25.289 them a bit better, but you're still fundamentally 00:24:25.289 --> 00:24:27.930 looking at the systems and procedures that are 00:24:27.930 --> 00:24:31.230 already in place. Yep. And just focusing purely 00:24:31.230 --> 00:24:33.900 on... them because they're tried and tested and 00:24:33.900 --> 00:24:35.819 they give you results. Yeah, make sure that the 00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:37.859 things that are meant to happen happen. Yep. 00:24:38.299 --> 00:24:41.259 So they manage. They spent all night thinking 00:24:41.259 --> 00:24:43.720 that title up didn't they? You're pretty good 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:45.619 at managing. What are we going to call you? How 00:24:45.619 --> 00:24:47.299 about a manager? Yeah, so if you want to make 00:24:47.299 --> 00:24:48.839 sure that things that are here to and the systems 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:50.279 and procedure that you set up in your business 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:52.339 are followed, manager. If you don't want to do 00:24:52.339 --> 00:24:54.440 the managing, get someone who can. If you can't 00:24:54.440 --> 00:24:55.960 do it without micromanaging, get someone who 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.619 can. I'm a garbage manager. I'd be terrible at 00:24:59.619 --> 00:25:00.819 the job. Okay, so what's the difference between 00:25:00.819 --> 00:25:03.500 - Are you a leader? I don't know, maybe. So what's 00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:04.420 the difference between a manager and a leader 00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:09.980 then? So leaders are more likely to inspire people. 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:13.319 To throw their pen across the desk apparently. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.299 Apparently Rhiannon's going to fidget with things 00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:17.539 while we're recording live. I know who would 00:25:17.539 --> 00:25:21.960 do that. Uncut, never edited. I think that's 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:24.180 a learnt train from her direct line manager. 00:25:24.500 --> 00:25:27.759 Yeah, she got that from me. So you're explaining 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.440 what a leader is, what's the difference? Yeah, 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:34.619 leaders tend to inspire people rather than, you 00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:36.299 know, focusing on things that are existing. You 00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:39.259 want to inspire people to want to be better and 00:25:39.259 --> 00:25:41.460 to come forth and give you new ideas as well. 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:44.680 Yeah, I think that's definitely right and it's 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:46.839 part of it. But, you know, managers are sort 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:48.779 of like, hey, let's do this. This is what we're 00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:50.880 doing. Let's make sure it's right. Let's, you 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.339 know, day to day. Leaders are like, let's go 00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:56.019 here. This is awesome. Change and innovation. 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:58.279 Yeah. Look at me. How good is this? Do leaders 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:01.680 create more leaders? You can do. Yeah, I suppose 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:04.819 managers can make more managers too. People look 00:26:04.819 --> 00:26:06.900 up to different things. But yeah, the leader 00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:08.940 and a manager is very different. So as a business 00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:11.019 owner, you can look at it two ways. You don't 00:26:11.019 --> 00:26:12.440 have to be managing everything in your business 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:14.799 to be the leader of the business. You might be 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.519 a terrible leader and you might be a terrible 00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:18.000 manager and maybe you should work on the tools. 00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:22.509 That's fine. You still own a business. that's 00:26:22.509 --> 00:26:24.210 a mechanism that can work without you and you 00:26:24.210 --> 00:26:25.549 still get a return on the side. There's nothing 00:26:25.549 --> 00:26:26.690 wrong with that. That's actually probably the 00:26:26.690 --> 00:26:28.269 best one because you're pretty redundant in that 00:26:28.269 --> 00:26:29.589 business if you're just on the tools. That's 00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:32.430 great. But yeah, as a manager, you're making 00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:34.869 sure things are right. As a leader, you're going, 00:26:35.089 --> 00:26:36.950 hey, this is where we need to get to. This is 00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:38.670 amazing. This is cool. This is the right thing 00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:41.950 to do. And then making people believe or we don't 00:26:41.950 --> 00:26:43.029 have to make people, we don't have to brainwash 00:26:43.029 --> 00:26:45.450 them. But here's the message, people. Who's in? 00:26:45.609 --> 00:26:47.930 Help them catch the vision. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe 00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:49.710 no one gets it or maybe it's a terrible idea. 00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:51.440 Like if you're standing here. In the middle of 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:52.920 the water and you can't swim, you say, hey, how 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:54.980 good is this? No one's going to follow you in 00:26:54.980 --> 00:26:57.640 there, that's fine. But yeah, if you've got the 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.000 vision of the business, like ours, just want 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:01.539 to help people, you know, as long as we're helping 00:27:01.539 --> 00:27:03.380 clients, I'm happy. As long as we're trying hard 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:04.599 and we're trying to do the right thing, like 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:07.579 if you muck it up, it's okay. We'll always be 00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:10.259 able to fix something. But the worst case is 00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:12.769 usually not that bad. The best thing we can do 00:27:12.769 --> 00:27:13.950 is we're helping them, we're trying to make it 00:27:13.950 --> 00:27:15.930 better, and for most clients is they can't make 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:18.289 it better anyway. So if we muck something up 00:27:18.289 --> 00:27:20.109 in the way, it's not going to get any worse, 00:27:20.609 --> 00:27:23.130 but at least we know that's not the path. But 00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:25.589 when it comes down to it, we don't want mistakes, 00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:29.190 that's bad. But if you've made a mistake and 00:27:29.190 --> 00:27:31.509 you haven't tried, that's one thing. If you've 00:27:31.509 --> 00:27:33.130 tried to help the client, you've done everything 00:27:33.130 --> 00:27:35.329 you can to make it better and it didn't work 00:27:35.329 --> 00:27:37.910 out, well, that's not a problem. No one's gonna 00:27:37.910 --> 00:27:41.680 be upset about that. you know for us I think 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.759 it's everyone in our business knows like we help 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:47.000 clients that's what we do. So if you're a person 00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:50.420 who suspects that they may or may not be a micromanager, 00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:54.359 they're a good manager or you're the owner of 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:55.880 a business and you've looked and you've gone 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:58.299 oh bugger I might be doing a little bit of this 00:27:58.299 --> 00:28:01.940 micromanaging stuff myself. Oh yeah. Do you hire 00:28:01.940 --> 00:28:04.660 leaders or do you develop leaders? Yeah good 00:28:04.660 --> 00:28:06.940 question you go either way if you don't know 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:09.059 how to develop one you don't have to. the culture 00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:11.799 or the size to develop them internally, then 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.200 yeah, get one in. But you want that leader to 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.099 believe what you believe. Yeah. There's lots 00:28:18.099 --> 00:28:20.000 of stuff on that and throughout the world and 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:22.279 different speakers. But yeah, the leader's got 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.420 to take you in a direction you're happy to go. 00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:26.500 And if you don't want that to be someone else, 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.880 you are the leader. So what's the direction that's, 00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:30.420 hey, guys, let's do this. This is how it works. 00:28:30.740 --> 00:28:33.880 And how cool is it? I love the word inspiration 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.519 that Ray used. Yeah. It's this. There's motivation 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.519 and there's inspiration. I mean, motivation is 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:43.500 quite temporary. You have to kind of re -motivate 00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:47.019 yourself, whereas inspiration is long -term. 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.099 Yep. And a good leader will inspire you into 00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:50.579 action and before you know it, you're doing it 00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:53.599 because you want to. Yep. Yeah, it's interesting. 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:56.619 So if you think about, if we translate that into 00:28:56.619 --> 00:28:59.920 something people see day to day, going back to 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:01.779 mum and dad's business, maybe it's the reception. 00:29:02.190 --> 00:29:04.869 You muck this simple system up. Well, if people 00:29:04.869 --> 00:29:07.569 have done this checklist 20 ,000 times, they've 00:29:07.569 --> 00:29:09.230 ticked that off, they're not inspired, they don't 00:29:09.230 --> 00:29:10.589 feel like they've achieved anything, they've 00:29:10.589 --> 00:29:12.250 just ticked something off. Going through the 00:29:12.250 --> 00:29:14.490 process. And we talked about imposter syndrome 00:29:14.490 --> 00:29:16.490 before and that mainly affects high achievers 00:29:16.490 --> 00:29:18.289 because they've done that awesome thing so many 00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:19.849 times, they don't even think it's that good anymore. 00:29:20.710 --> 00:29:23.150 So if you're managing people and you're expecting 00:29:23.150 --> 00:29:24.910 them to adhere to these little things and there's 00:29:24.910 --> 00:29:27.029 never that inspiration or that meaning behind 00:29:27.029 --> 00:29:29.509 what they're doing, they're going to get bored, 00:29:29.630 --> 00:29:31.579 they're going to muck it up. But if they can 00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:34.740 go, oh, this is why we do it. Like, I said hello 00:29:34.740 --> 00:29:37.279 and greeted the same person, the same people 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.059 hundreds of times. Every face looks the same 00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:43.720 now. How do I still smile? It's like, oh, because 00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:45.640 I know when people come in, we can make their 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:47.339 day. I just want them to be happy with it. My 00:29:47.339 --> 00:29:48.299 goal is when they come in, they're just going 00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:50.599 to be happy. That gives them a bit of a buzz. 00:29:50.700 --> 00:29:52.579 It gives them that bit of dopamine. And then 00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:54.660 we follow the systems and procedures along the 00:29:54.660 --> 00:29:57.440 way. You don't necessarily have to be a leader 00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:00.329 to inspire people. You could be a manager and 00:30:00.329 --> 00:30:02.509 inspire people as well, but a leader's job is 00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:05.769 definitely, what are we trying to do? There's 00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:08.930 a great story about an employee at a hotel chain 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:12.670 and he works at two different hotel chains. And 00:30:12.670 --> 00:30:17.190 at one hotel, he is bubbly and enthusiastic. 00:30:17.869 --> 00:30:21.750 And that's because his managers empower him to 00:30:21.750 --> 00:30:25.150 be his best self in that hotel chain. Go nuts. 00:30:25.529 --> 00:30:27.890 Yep. Just be yourself. Here's what we expect 00:30:27.890 --> 00:30:30.960 from you. go out and do it. And then at the other 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.799 one, he hates his job because every five minutes 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:35.599 someone's checking to make sure he's doing the 00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.519 right thing. Yep. Which one are you going to 00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:41.500 go to? Yeah. It's the same person. It's just 00:30:41.500 --> 00:30:43.240 different management styles. Yeah. And then you'd 00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:45.500 be thinking, you go to the one that gets paid 00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:47.980 the most, which is not true. No, definitely not. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:48.880 There's a certain amount of money where people 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:50.839 can live and it's going to be a fear, I hate 00:30:50.839 --> 00:30:52.750 this place and I like this place. I mean, there's 00:30:52.750 --> 00:30:54.630 an evolution of that, especially as a young person 00:30:54.630 --> 00:30:57.089 coming out of university or even in the trades 00:30:57.089 --> 00:31:00.150 or just unskilled labour. You're going for the 00:31:00.150 --> 00:31:02.250 dollar early, but it doesn't take long for you 00:31:02.250 --> 00:31:05.990 to realise that quality of life, for a couple 00:31:05.990 --> 00:31:08.509 of dollars, you're going to take the job that's 00:31:08.509 --> 00:31:11.109 less stress. Yeah. And then just going back a 00:31:11.109 --> 00:31:12.410 little bit, you could do pathways to people, 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:14.910 but the person you mentioned in there, so yeah, 00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:16.509 go nuts. You follow these things, you do a great 00:31:16.509 --> 00:31:18.849 job, be yourself, and as long as this end result's 00:31:18.849 --> 00:31:20.529 achieved within these guidelines, we don't mind. 00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:22.660 Is that person going to want to get better in 00:31:22.660 --> 00:31:25.680 that organisation and do more? More than likely. 00:31:25.900 --> 00:31:27.240 Absolutely. Are they going to learn other things 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:28.460 like, oh yeah, I really want to get better, I 00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:29.880 just love this organisation, I'd like to do this 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:31.019 and this, and they're going to try and learn 00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:32.700 and do something themselves off their own back 00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:34.579 to make something better or learn so they can 00:31:34.579 --> 00:31:37.440 do something more. It's much more likely than 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:39.660 if you're sitting there, you hate the job, you've 00:31:39.660 --> 00:31:40.759 got to do the same thing every day and there's 00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:43.480 no progression, no opportunity. Conversely, if 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.859 that person doesn't have any aspiration, How 00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:48.920 happy is he going to be coming in doing the same 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:50.900 job over and over and over again if he's just 00:31:50.900 --> 00:31:52.720 empowered to do the same job? Just have fun every 00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:55.160 day. Just be awesome. Just likes talking to people. 00:31:55.700 --> 00:31:57.539 Our customers love you. You're great at your 00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:00.500 job. There's plenty of pathways for progression, 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:02.339 but if you don't want to, we're not going to 00:32:02.339 --> 00:32:04.559 force you to. That's a great example of just 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:06.579 getting out of the way. So micromanagers, you're 00:32:06.579 --> 00:32:08.059 in the way. Sometimes you're part of the problem. 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:10.039 And you've got to be able to identify that. It's 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:11.519 like, oh, actually, I'm just this person all 00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:13.599 the time. I've got better things to do. Well, 00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:15.589 fine. You got better things. Go do them. get 00:32:15.589 --> 00:32:16.930 out of the way. But they go and do their job. 00:32:17.150 --> 00:32:18.970 Yeah, they're doing a pretty good job and, you 00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:21.150 know, unless it goes drastically wrong, go nuts. 00:32:21.369 --> 00:32:23.089 And if it's such a problem, you either change 00:32:23.089 --> 00:32:25.950 your processes and your systems, or if the person 00:32:25.950 --> 00:32:28.390 won't do it, you change the person. But yeah, 00:32:28.390 --> 00:32:30.390 if you're getting people to, like, people come 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:31.690 in, they do a great job for a while and they 00:32:31.690 --> 00:32:34.650 keep turning bad, it's probably not the people, 00:32:34.789 --> 00:32:37.150 there's something in your business that's making 00:32:37.150 --> 00:32:40.829 it go bad. And that's your job as an owner, as 00:32:40.829 --> 00:32:43.089 a manager, as a leader. People don't want to 00:32:43.089 --> 00:32:45.069 fail. No. They don't come into a job and go, 00:32:45.130 --> 00:32:46.690 geez, I'm going to be crap at this. No one goes 00:32:46.690 --> 00:32:48.329 to work this morning, goes, I'm just going to 00:32:48.329 --> 00:32:50.490 make sure this is the worst day of my life. I 00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:55.750 mean, eventually they do. There's plenty of workplaces 00:32:55.750 --> 00:32:57.529 where people just come in because they have to 00:32:57.529 --> 00:32:59.430 come in. No, no, no, but they don't go, oh, gee, 00:32:59.529 --> 00:33:01.410 I have to come today and I'm going to make this 00:33:01.410 --> 00:33:02.470 the worst day of my life. They're going to go, 00:33:02.490 --> 00:33:04.930 oh, this is going to suck. Yeah. Yeah. So no 00:33:04.930 --> 00:33:07.269 one has the intention of being as bad as they 00:33:07.269 --> 00:33:09.369 can be every day. No. Surely it doesn't start 00:33:09.369 --> 00:33:12.680 there. No. No, you have people actively sabotaging 00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:14.940 things like there's a few issues that happen 00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:17.220 on the way or you have someone that's got serious 00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:20.420 issues, which is super rare. And potentially, 00:33:20.420 --> 00:33:22.720 I mean, it's not a deliberate thing. You was 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.099 a business owner and that's happening in your 00:33:24.099 --> 00:33:27.779 business. You might have just lost focus there 00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:30.299 for a little bit. Yeah. And all of a sudden, 00:33:30.500 --> 00:33:33.279 whoa, what's happened to my business? Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.460 Yeah, sometimes and sometimes micromanaging too 00:33:36.460 --> 00:33:38.400 can be a little bit of the, we're talking about 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:42.930 imposter syndrome. Last podcast. But you're like, 00:33:42.950 --> 00:33:44.289 oh gee, I'm not there. I haven't checked in with 00:33:44.289 --> 00:33:45.549 these people. I don't know what's going on. I 00:33:45.549 --> 00:33:47.210 better do that because they might be thinking 00:33:47.210 --> 00:33:48.650 about leaving or they might be this or they might 00:33:48.650 --> 00:33:50.869 be that. But hang on, maybe just have a bit of 00:33:50.869 --> 00:33:53.910 confidence and trust that a bit of faith, faith's 00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:56.230 a good word, but just a bit of faith. Like, yeah, 00:33:56.289 --> 00:33:58.049 this person means, well, it's a nice person. 00:33:58.349 --> 00:33:59.970 I know they can do the job. They're signed off, 00:34:00.190 --> 00:34:01.730 they're trained. They've done a good job for 00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:03.950 two years. Let's just trust that that person's 00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:06.130 okay. And if they make a mistake, they do their 00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:09.929 bit there at level best. friends from the shop. 00:34:10.369 --> 00:34:13.989 Level best. Do your level best to fix it. And 00:34:13.989 --> 00:34:17.230 that's really all you can ask, isn't it? Support 00:34:17.230 --> 00:34:18.769 them when they make a mistake because they're 00:34:18.769 --> 00:34:20.590 a good employee. Yeah, correct. You're having 00:34:20.590 --> 00:34:22.090 a bad day. Maybe they're just having a bad two 00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:24.389 weeks, you know. Hey, is everything okay? Yeah, 00:34:24.389 --> 00:34:25.730 I'm having a bad few weeks. All right, cool. 00:34:25.829 --> 00:34:28.949 Let's see if we can get through it. Do your best. 00:34:29.429 --> 00:34:31.750 Just wait for them to come to you as well. Like 00:34:31.750 --> 00:34:33.570 a lot of the time if somebody needs help with 00:34:33.570 --> 00:34:36.769 something, if you just wait, they will come directly 00:34:36.769 --> 00:34:39.130 to you and ask you for help. And if you're going, 00:34:39.269 --> 00:34:40.590 gee, my employees never come to me, well, you 00:34:40.590 --> 00:34:42.369 mightn't be a bit unapproachable, whether you 00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:44.110 think you are or not. You think, I tell them 00:34:44.110 --> 00:34:45.670 I'm approachable, but yeah, it doesn't mean you 00:34:45.670 --> 00:34:48.449 are. The person who tells everyone they're approachable, 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:50.130 they're definitely not. Well, you're harassing 00:34:50.130 --> 00:34:52.070 them so much that they're like, I don't want 00:34:52.070 --> 00:34:53.530 to go to you because you're just going to tell 00:34:53.530 --> 00:34:57.869 me that I'm wrong. Like, you know, if you don't... 00:34:57.869 --> 00:34:59.530 The trust is in there basically, so you've got 00:34:59.530 --> 00:35:01.510 to work on trust. It sounds like it's a balancing 00:35:01.510 --> 00:35:04.429 act. Yeah. From micromanaging to good managing. 00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:07.300 Not good managing, but managing. I always like 00:35:07.300 --> 00:35:12.699 to liken things to larger businesses. Yep. And 00:35:12.699 --> 00:35:15.940 I had a snoring test or a sleep test, sleep test, 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:19.760 see how many sleep avenues I had. And the person 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.980 who showed me how to use the equipment did the 00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:26.460 checklist and everything. They had not been doing 00:35:26.460 --> 00:35:30.420 it very long. This is a company with 150 locations 00:35:30.420 --> 00:35:33.449 throughout Australia. Yep. She didn't really 00:35:33.449 --> 00:35:35.829 know how to answer any of my questions. They 00:35:35.829 --> 00:35:38.570 did bill me a lot of money and I did successfully 00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:42.110 complete the test. And everything was fine. Yep. 00:35:42.750 --> 00:35:45.909 So if they can do it, like I wasn't in the world, 00:35:45.949 --> 00:35:48.010 I was happy I got the result that I wanted. It 00:35:48.010 --> 00:35:50.449 all worked out. She would be fine later on. Like 00:35:50.449 --> 00:35:52.489 she's still a nice person. So even though we 00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:54.110 took a little bit longer to get some spots, like 00:35:54.110 --> 00:35:55.409 I was, you know, I was happy with her. I wasn't 00:35:55.409 --> 00:35:58.510 going to be. Like, oh, what are you doing? Once 00:35:58.510 --> 00:36:00.630 you choose this career, you're garbage. Yeah, 00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:03.070 but if you let people be people, in your example 00:36:03.070 --> 00:36:05.409 with your friend, if you let people be people 00:36:05.409 --> 00:36:07.250 and follow the guidelines and you've got it there, 00:36:07.349 --> 00:36:09.710 get out of their way and you'll find that it'll 00:36:09.710 --> 00:36:11.329 work itself out. If it takes them two months 00:36:11.329 --> 00:36:13.389 to get to the point where they actually can do 00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:16.210 it properly, that's good. But if you have harassed 00:36:16.210 --> 00:36:18.289 them for two months, they're going to be still 00:36:18.289 --> 00:36:24.849 at square one. Good point. This is amazing like 00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:26.449 one of the things some people come and they're 00:36:26.449 --> 00:36:29.190 like, oh, how do you get people? Good people 00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:30.570 and this that the other and you're like, oh have 00:36:30.570 --> 00:36:32.409 you got and what are you doing? What do you micromanage? 00:36:32.409 --> 00:36:34.710 I'm checking I'm checking everything checking 00:36:34.710 --> 00:36:36.170 everything. It's like do you need to check it? 00:36:36.170 --> 00:36:37.610 Yeah, because if it's wrong, it's a big problem 00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:39.750 Well, how often is it wrong? It's like I pretty 00:36:39.750 --> 00:36:44.909 much never Yeah, but they'll be that one time 00:36:44.909 --> 00:36:48.469 yeah when it's wrong do you give feedback and 00:36:48.469 --> 00:36:50.650 like I'm not saying that in a way like I'd die 00:36:50.650 --> 00:36:52.590 but People are like, oh, no, I don't really. 00:36:52.590 --> 00:36:54.190 I'll just fix it because it's easier to do it 00:36:54.190 --> 00:36:55.530 myself. It's nice and quick and it's just wasting 00:36:55.530 --> 00:36:56.570 everyone's time. Well, give them that little 00:36:56.570 --> 00:36:58.030 bit of feedback because they want to do a good 00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:00.690 job. They want to get better. So yeah, just make 00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:02.889 sure if you're micromanaging and you're like, 00:37:02.889 --> 00:37:04.610 how do you get out of it? Well, just look at 00:37:04.610 --> 00:37:07.349 what you're doing. Try to pull yourself out of 00:37:07.349 --> 00:37:09.650 the loop. Try to get out of the way. And I think 00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:11.829 the easiest way to look at managing is how can 00:37:11.829 --> 00:37:13.949 you make it easiest for this person? Tell you 00:37:13.949 --> 00:37:16.469 the best that they can be. That's your job. And 00:37:16.469 --> 00:37:18.550 when they start out, you can start with a low 00:37:18.550 --> 00:37:23.610 risk reward. areas of their job. So if they stuff 00:37:23.610 --> 00:37:25.090 this bit up, it's not really going to affect 00:37:25.090 --> 00:37:27.289 the bottom line. So let's give them that autonomy 00:37:27.289 --> 00:37:30.610 and let them go nuts. And then slowly they're 00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:32.550 going to grow into the role. And then, okay, 00:37:32.590 --> 00:37:34.590 this one's a bit riskier. If they make a few 00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:36.110 mistakes here, it could cost us a little bit, 00:37:36.590 --> 00:37:38.309 but they've shown that they can do it so far. 00:37:39.429 --> 00:37:41.590 Yeah. And as people will be going, okay, we've 00:37:41.590 --> 00:37:43.769 got people doing serious stuff, being paid a 00:37:43.769 --> 00:37:45.409 fair bit, they can't follow. They can't. They're 00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:47.570 still not doing their job. It's like, well, same 00:37:47.570 --> 00:37:50.039 rules apply. Yeah. Yeah. Training, your induction, 00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:51.480 you sign them off, you get them to a point where 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:53.460 you're as confident, happy, good, good, good, 00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:55.420 so we know they can do it. Yep. Then your job 00:37:55.420 --> 00:37:59.019 as a manager is to do whatever you can to help 00:37:59.019 --> 00:38:01.840 them do their job. Not make them do their job, 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:03.000 to help them do their job. Because they don't 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:04.119 want to do their job. Most people want to do 00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:05.360 their job. If they don't want to do their job, 00:38:05.380 --> 00:38:07.579 find someone that wants to do their job. Most 00:38:07.579 --> 00:38:10.719 people want to earn their wage. Yep. If people 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:12.599 just hate their job, well, no worries, that's 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.320 fine. Part ways, they'll find a job they like. 00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:16.059 Good for them, good for you. Give someone else 00:38:16.059 --> 00:38:17.760 an opportunity. They probably work in a call 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:23.559 centre. For a month. Or a year and a half. Some 00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:28.380 people have staying power. So micromanagement, 00:38:28.579 --> 00:38:30.099 I think we've covered that pretty well. What 00:38:30.099 --> 00:38:32.619 is it? Different ways to do things. But I think 00:38:32.619 --> 00:38:34.159 at the end of the day, if you just think people 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:36.880 are people, have a bit of faith that people want 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:40.400 to do well. How can you help them succeed? Look 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:42.320 at things from that way. Go back to your systems 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.340 and processes. If you don't have those, you can't 00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:47.460 manage someone. Let people know really clearly. 00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:51.269 what the expectations are is communicate yep 00:38:51.269 --> 00:38:53.170 if you know if everyone knows the expectations 00:38:53.170 --> 00:38:55.070 what needs to be done doesn't then you're all 00:38:55.070 --> 00:38:56.630 on the same page and that's probably where a 00:38:56.630 --> 00:38:59.469 lot of this breaks down the uh the biggest trust 00:38:59.469 --> 00:39:01.750 them yeah trust if they know it and you know 00:39:01.750 --> 00:39:04.130 that they know it then trust them to do it because 00:39:04.130 --> 00:39:07.929 they will do it yeah that's a big part and just 00:39:07.929 --> 00:39:09.670 be aware that just because you trust them doesn't 00:39:09.670 --> 00:39:12.130 mean they trust you the biggest the biggest problem 00:39:12.130 --> 00:39:14.710 with communication is the belief that it's happened 00:39:14.710 --> 00:39:18.719 oh yeah yeah oh tom it's a good one The illusion. 00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:22.199 Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, just trust for a second. 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:24.760 You can trust them. You say, oh, but I do trust 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:28.360 them. But if they don't trust you, it doesn't 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:30.019 matter because they're still nervous about something. 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:31.559 So the trust is a two way street. You've got 00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:32.880 to, they've got to earn it off you. You've got 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:34.699 to earn it off them. And, but you just got to 00:39:34.699 --> 00:39:36.119 have the faith, you know, people want to do the 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:37.940 right thing. Sounds pretty hard, this business 00:39:37.940 --> 00:39:40.800 thing. Who would want to run a business? Yeah. 00:39:41.219 --> 00:39:43.380 Nah, it's good. Sounds like it could be fun, 00:39:43.420 --> 00:39:44.679 but it sounds like a lot of hard work getting 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:47.519 there. It's pretty simple when it comes down 00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:51.199 to it. Just practice and get better. I think 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.099 Rowan did a really good job of summing up our 00:39:54.099 --> 00:39:57.400 topic today. That was your job? Yeah, exactly. 00:39:57.500 --> 00:40:00.380 Didn't he like how I managed you? Oops. Anyway, 00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:02.340 sorry. Getting back to my point, that gives me 00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:04.920 a bit more time to talk about our next topic. 00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:09.280 I know a lot of people probably missed out when 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:12.179 we were talking about how to recruit new people 00:40:12.179 --> 00:40:13.699 earlier in our podcast today because we've got 00:40:13.699 --> 00:40:16.530 a little bit off topic. So we're going to chat 00:40:16.530 --> 00:40:18.889 about that next time. So stay tuned. How do you 00:40:18.889 --> 00:40:21.150 find good people? Off topic, that doesn't sound 00:40:21.150 --> 00:40:23.130 like us. Definitely. How do you find good people? 00:40:23.389 --> 00:40:25.030 That's going to be a good topic of podcast, I 00:40:25.030 --> 00:40:26.670 think. Good. Listen next time and you'll find 00:40:26.670 --> 00:40:28.909 out. I will. Goodbye. So long.