Welcome to the Business Abundance Podcast, providing
the tools and knowledge to help small business
owners succeed. For additional resources, visit
www .businessabundance .online. Welcome back
to the Business Abundance Podcast. I'm Rhee.
Oh, I'm Ian. I get to go this time. Cool. And
welcome, I'm Rowan. Today, we'll be talking about
micromanaging. I think most of us have probably
experienced an overbearing manager at some point
in our careers. When I worked in a call centre,
we were constantly monitored. So our management
always knew what we were doing at all times.
Knew when I was on a break. Knew when I was on
a call. Knew when I was finishing up. Knew if
I tried to finish up early. Was there a toilet
button? Oh yeah, personal break. I'm sorry, what?
There's a button, particularly, that I'm going
to the loo. No, you're having a lend. Really?
Yeah, like whatever you were doing, it had to
be monitored. There was a button for everything.
Yep. Man, I've never worked in a call centre.
This is awesome. Those that have been in a call
centre once before, they're like, oh yeah, we
know. And we need people listening right now.
I've got PTSD. It's like hospitality PTSD, retail
PTSD. Oh, you hear the call chimes, like the
call chimes. They're like, they haunt me in my
dream. When a call pops in, you'd hear like a
chime. Sounds like a terrible place to work.
That's why they have such high turnover. Yeah.
It's also why they have such an ability to employ
so many people so quickly and get a pretty consistent
result for clients. But yeah, it's, I think I
lasted two and a half months. I think I already
told the story for the poll when I do it again.
Eileen, I did a year and a half. But I dominated
my KPIs. Yeah, me too. And then they told me
I was a day late for my bonus period, so I didn't
get my bonus. And I was like, I'll see you later.
Oh, wow. This is terrible. So what's that got
to do with micromanaging? That is micromanaging.
Oh, cool. What's an example? Yeah. Yesterday
we were talking about micromanaging. Yeah. Yeah,
so there's cases where people would have been
micromanaged before. Yeah. And then there's probably
some people out there going, gee, I'm not a micromanager.
That's not me. And maybe it is you. Maybe it's
not. Yeah. I never understood. Well, as I got
older, I think I understood when I was younger.
But then as I've got older, I've lost the understanding.
Why would you hire someone who's really good
at their job and then just tell them what to
do all the time? Because you like control. Control
freaks, you know the term? Straight to the answers.
So now you're saying if you micromanage you're
a control freak. That is very aggressive to start
a podcast. I tell you what, every manager of
every call centre right there is calling in.
Lines have lit up if this was live. You might
be. Look at the stats of the podcast and it's
going to be like one minute in, two minutes in
and then everyone just drops off. Riann is insulted.
I can't believe you called most of our audience
control freaks. It's just one option. It's not
all the reason why you're a micromanager. Three
reasons why you need to… Ree's out of control.
Shocking. You should be a bit more of a micromanager.
I should be. Yeah. I've said that before. He
goes, oh, he's a micromanager. Then Ree's like,
I've never seen her look so bewildered. Like,
what on earth did you just say? Like, how? How
did you get that out of this guy? She still can't
talk. She's gone. We'll come back. We'll carry
her for a while. Yeah, I think we can. But yeah,
so what's micromanaging in? This is always the
hardest question when we can't continue for a
while till we answer. I think the best way to
describe it would be to flatter you a little
bit and say it's the complete opposite of you.
That doesn't help anyone understand what it is
because no one knows me. Yeah, but what's your
management style? Basically let people figure
it out and help them every now and then. Yeah,
so you employ the people that can do their job.
Hopefully. Yep. Yeah, you can get that wrong,
but yeah. You expect by the time you've employed
them that you think they're going to be more
than suitable, yes. And then not tell them every
little bit of their job that they're doing wrong.
All right. Yeah, so we've got to define micromanaging
today by saying what it's not. Yeah. Yeah. I
think that's a good way to define something.
Well, I'll just define my way instead of micromanaging
and then we'll go from there. But yeah, funny
me what you said, you've chosen someone, you
think they're going to be great at it, you've
got them in that role. and then your job as a
manager to give them the tools they need to succeed.
And one of those is usually not been in the way.
So you are taking everything out of the way that's
going to make them their day less enjoyable,
less productive, whatever it is, get all that
stuff out of their way, which is usually the
manager, which probably is me half the time,
and then back them to succeed. But micromanaging
is a very, very common thing. And there's lots
of reasonable people might do it. And that's
just when you're constantly on people's backs.
Just to backtrack for a second. How do you find
good people? Where he's back. How do you find
good people? I mean, she did need to backtrack
after calling a lot of people to control her.
We lost her again. How do you find good people?
I feel like that's a whole podcast. Did we do
that yet? If we haven't, it'll be coming because
everyone wants to know. There's hours on, how
do you get good people? Everyone's just going,
oh, tell me, please. How do you get good accountants?
How do you get good accountants? Yeah. Well,
it's not a whole podcast for accounting firms,
but yeah, it's hard to get at the moment. Oh,
we've got a few, luckily. Sounds like a challenge.
All right. So how do you get good people? We
can definitely do another podcast in the future.
And then once that podcast comes out, we'll link
it down to the bottom of this so you can actually
find it, jump to it. Yeah, you might need to
micromanage if you haven't got the right people.
Sounds exhausting, micromanaging. It's basically
like giving excessive supervision to people.
Like, you're always handing out task after task
after task, making sure that you know what everybody
is doing, sometimes doing it for them, because
they may have already done it, but you're like,
no, that's not how I want it done, so I'm going
to do it for you anyway. It kind of evokes like
a sense of distrust in people. Unable to. Oh,
OK, well, I'm not doing things the way I need
to be doing them. Why aren't I good enough? I
don't want to relinquish that control as well
as a manager slash business owner. Control freaks,
again. Rufus. Well, it's not necessarily control
freaks. Maybe it is, I suppose. You can bring
everything back to that. But if you've got, maybe
you're not doing so well, you're not getting
the right results. Maybe you've got the right
people. Maybe they were great and then they're
not anymore. and you're like, I've tried everything
and nothing's working and you're just frustrated.
So I've got to literally keep my eye on everything.
That's going to cause micromanaging, isn't it?
I think if you're already stressed, if you're
already heightened to what's going on, if you're
having cashflow issues or you're having, you
know, you're not getting enough sales, not as
many sales as you want to be getting. Sounds
exhausting. So, you know, there's lots of reasons
why people do it. Micromanaging fundamentally
the answer to the question is that you're hassling
people. you're managing things that you shouldn't
be managing, you're looking at stuff that probably
you don't need to, you don't want too much of
it. So we've talked about what is micromanaging
now, and we mentioned a few reasons as why it
might occur. But, you know, why do you think
a call centre manages to that sort of degree?
Probably because they're paid a lot of money
by very large and important firms to consistently
deliver the same results. Yeah, and how's that
firm going to tell if they're delivering or not?
Well, they're going to want reports on their
KPIs and things like that. And they want to know
all these key numbers. So then the managers need
to know all those key numbers, which I'm not
against whatsoever. Don't get me wrong. But then
where does it become overbearing for an employee?
Is there systems like call center systems and
processes? Is that micromanaging? It could be.
The thing is how it's laid out. If I'm looking
at it and I remember what I did, we had to get
off calls for half to two minutes. And that was
the definition of a success. So some people just
would hang out and hope that they weren't having
a mystery listener in doing for a coaching, which
was probably one in a hundred calls. You just
pot luck. So, oh yeah, we'll get OK. We'll just
hang up on this person because they're not listening
to me or I don't know what to do. And the next
poor person will get on put no nose in the system
and no one knows me. We had in person. So there
was like no mystery quality assurance. It was
like. the quality insurance team member come
up and be like, I'm going to sit next to you
and watch everything you do right next to you
for a whole engagement. That's much better than
us because we were like, we're going to sit in
another room, you're not even going to know with
the ear. Yeah, we had those as well, but we also
had the ones where they sit next to you. And
it's like terrifying. You're like, oh, I made
more mistakes when I had someone sitting next
to me than I did on any of my other engagements.
This is a downside to the micromanaging when
it gets... to overbearing, then you've got performance
issues. But, yeah, what is over the line? Because
some of those metrics are required to know that
people are doing a good job. And you can go,
well, the time of a call is important, but maybe
it's important to what they get paid, maybe it's
important because it's an indicator of a good
result, but maybe it's not. What if you can't
answer a customer's questions in that time frame?
Correct. And then you're not delivering good
value to the client? And that's not a problem,
but then you go, OK, well, what's micromanaging
there? It's... To me, it would be when we're
using those numbers and we're spending more time
monitoring and coaching and checking and pushing
it in front of people, we're spending too much
time on that rather than, hey, here's your numbers
just so you know, and they're good, and good
work. Instead of going, okay, your average break,
and I remember back to when I was young, Buck
18, and I think this was a... from my recollection,
which might've changed over the years, but I'm
pretty sure I remember it correctly, was, oh
yeah, really good numbers last week. Yeah, the
only thing, your breaks, you average 10 minutes
in one second. You don't want to get that below
10, like you should be, but you're back at 10
minutes. One second. Yep. So that's when you
go, okay, we're monitoring all these things.
Hey, you know, everything's fantastic. That's
a little bit over. Yeah. You obviously had a
bit of a thing, something happened there, but
you know, you'll be fine. Rather than, hey, get
that back in line. See, for me, that sounds more
like a process than a micromanagement situation.
Yeah, well, the process is to micromanage. Yeah.
And another case, I think Ria and I had different
experiences. Like once a month, we got told our
numbers and told to ship in shape. But if we
were back late for a break, like we're 12 minutes
instead of 10, your manager would be at your
desk five minutes later, like... Yeah, now that's
micromanaging. Push the... You go out of the
call queue and they're like, what's happening?
That's micromanaging. We'd get messages if we
weren't in the call queue for... That's a word.
Cork you. Cork you. That's two words. That's
why I had trouble. Yes, it's not hyphenated.
Yeah, so they check on you because they can see
all your things. So that's where it becomes an
issue. You've got too many managers for the people
and then the managers trying to justify their
decisions or keep themselves busy because they're
bored. We were displayed on a wall as well. So
good. So we could see what each other was doing.
No, you had seats. I'm slightly a leader, so
I kind of think that if everyone's on board,
I think it's fantastic. The competition doesn't
go astray. But then you have like this new recruit
sitting next to you and they're like, oh, why
aren't you back in a call yet? Yeah. I'm like,
excuse me, you've been here five minutes. Yeah.
Don't you double on me. But yeah, you find like
in the call set scenario, if someone's like they've
got 10 people to manage, like do they really
need to? The numbers are all there. It's there
to be displayed. It's obvious someone can go
once a week, look through them and decipher it
all in an hour. Why do you need someone sitting
there managing 10 people and just being on them
like a hawk? The danger becomes you end up with
a bureaucratic system of people justifying their
position to maintain a wage. Yep. And then you
look at that and you go, well, people burn out
pretty quickly because they're on a call, on
a call, on a call, on a call. Everything's monitored.
Everything's tracked. It's all down to the second.
And what's the focus of what does the company
want? Some companies want the lowest costs, which
doesn't always work out. Some companies want
the best result. So what's the metric for that?
Sometimes you can't measure those things or you
won't get the feedback. Happy clients won't do
a survey. Fine, no worries. They're not there
to do a survey. It's problem solved or whatever
it is they need. it's been out of focus on the
right thing rather than the fine details. And
so call centers need this level of detail, one,
to show, hey, we're doing our job and we get
paid. And that's what the customers are demanding.
And that's fine, I have no issues with that.
But they also need it because their staff probably
haven't been in the industry before. It's a lower
paid position. It's for a position for anyone.
They take people in and inductions of 30 people
at a time. And then after a week, They're in
the call line. They know nothing. They follow
a script. They follow a process, which is a good
example of a systematized process business. If
they can do it, well, you should be able to do
it. But they also churn through those employees
really quickly because of the micromanagement.
And you think if the recruitment cost would be
quite high, the turnover cost would be quite
high if they could maybe not micromanage so much,
but still show a client the good results and
still see if things are okay. They'll keep the
good people in the industry. Maybe they can pay
them a little bit more. Maybe they can get all
those numbers down in a different way. Can you
think of any ways to try and find that balance?
Yeah, maybe just focus on the right numbers.
But like, if they're doing coaching calls and
you've got people that 99 % of the time are doing
a good job, like, leave them alone. That's just
one example. Like, we're talking about call center
now, but for a lot of people, their businesses
aren't call center. They aren't call centers.
So, you know, let's look at some other examples.
Well, let's, yeah, let's look at a mum and popping.
industry, for instance, and you might just be
starting to employ people. This is your baby.
This is your business. This is your passion.
Yep. And you've brought on a name on the door.
Yep. Your name on the door. You've got a fancy
logo that you've paid some legends to create
and it's all over the place and signage is up
and you've just started employing people and
you can't let it go. It has to be done my way.
How do you minimize the opportunities or minimize
the risk of Micromanaging in that situation when
you all you want people who has reinvested in
the job as you are but you own the place Yeah,
how do you get away from that? Yeah, it's fairly
to unpack. Yeah, it's big for a bit. Sorry about
that. Yeah So hopefully I remember all the different
ones to go back to but yeah, so you've got your
own business as your pride and joy You know you
do everything and you're taking employees in
I think part of it has been out of a step that
maybe it's not going to be your level but your
level's probably reasonably high. If you've been
doing a good job, you've got it perfect, you've
got a damn hat, well, how is someone going to
do it perfect the first time? Like they're not.
So you want to try to recruit someone, which
obviously is a podcast episode coming up. You
want to recruit someone who you think is going
to be good at the job, give them the best chance
of success, because everyone's got a role. You
don't put people in a role that they're not going
to be suited for. So you choose someone that
you think is going to be the best. and hopefully
they are, and if they're not, then find something
else for them or move them on and free up their
future, as I say, because they'll be unhappy,
you'll be unhappy, everyone will be happy, and
they'll find something else, it'll be fine. They'll
be happier. What's the system? What's the process?
What's the framework? I'm big for sort of guidelines
and frameworks. You can have a detailed process,
100 % that's fine, but once people understand
that detailed process or they're new and they
need to follow the detailed process, there's
a guideline. Here's the five key things that
our theory of what needs to be important, you
know, for us is, yeah, you talk to the people.
Yeah, number one, you talk to people. You don't
just follow, do the job. You do the greatest
job in the world. But if you didn't talk to them,
like, we want to talk to people. So that would
be a guideline. But then a process would be you
go to the job, you open the job, you check the
client's information is right in the system.
You put this in the system, you put that in the
system. You open this document, you put the details
in, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is kind of
micromanaging. But you have that process in place
before you give it to someone. So then obviously
you can go through that with them. You can show
them how to do it. They can read how to do it.
They can see you do it. then they can do it themselves
with you. So potentially you've got a healthy
level of micromanaging in the induction process.
What's called training? Induction. Yeah. That's
not micromanaging. No. That's learning. Yeah.
But then relinquishing that control could be
where it becomes a difficulty for some. Yeah.
And I feel like a lot of people would be listening
right now. They're like, yeah, well, if they
learned it and there was a process and they did
it right, I wouldn't need to micromanage. That's
not what happens. I don't do it right. And there
can be many reasons for that. It could be they
physically can't or mentally they can't do it.
It could be they don't care. And that could be
because you're micro -engineering all the time.
It could be because they're upset about something
else or something about a day. There's a million
different reasons, but it's identifying what's
stopping that person from performing. So going
back a few steps, management, your job as a manager
is to remove roadblocks. Yeah. Help people get
better. Empower people to be good at their job.
Yeah. And sometimes people look at things like
a receptionist. I've got a really good receptionist.
She's so good. He's so good. Whatever. This person's
so good. I don't want them to move on. I don't
want them to do something different because I'm
going to reception. It's not going to be as good.
But why would that person do anything good for
you? Because you're holding them back. They're
still the same thing. They're bored. Like, yeah,
they're going to muck up mundane tasks because
they're not paying attention. It's just mundane.
So it's part of it is looking at it and go, okay,
well, what's causing this person to not be able
to do it and be realistic. And that's not, let's
go crack the rib. But you've also got the side
and people probably listening and go, yeah, we've
done that. We've tried to do this. We've tried
to do that. And it's still not, but there's probably
other things you haven't done. Maybe someone
else at work is not doing their job and you don't
do anything about it. You've got no obvious plan.
You just actively ignore it. Everyone knows it.
So then why would they do their job when there's
other persons? So it might not be this person's
actually the problem. You might be doing something
else. There's lots of different factors that
could cause someone to do it. And then it comes
down to it that if they just can't do it for
the future. Yep. Yeah. What's the flip side?
You just need to sit there and micromanage them
all the time and you double check everything
all the time. Well, that's not practical. It's
not sustainable as a business. Move on, get someone
else. If you've gone through five people, probably
need to look at yourself and what you're doing,
and if you can't do that, get some help. That'd
be a culture problem. Yeah, a culture problem
or what you're doing problem, or whether there's
no process or it's not possible or whatever.
Maybe if you get to that point, you should think
about employing a manager. Get a manager for
your business. Yeah, and hope they're not a micromanager.
You know what I mean? It's an interesting point.
A lot of people in business are really good at
what you do. You're good at talking to the clients.
You're good at doing the job and you just don't
get the people stuff. You don't get the management
stuff. You just can't do it. Well, no problems.
Employ a manager. Employ someone to do a job
for you. Do that. Then you don't have to do it.
You've got to trust them though. Get the right
people. And you've got to get the right numbers
and the right metrics. Like the call center is
saying, having those numbers isn't necessarily
a bad thing, but it's using them realistically
and being able to see what's going on and having
that picture. That's required. But not been over
the top with the manager every day on where's
this? Where's this? Where's this? Where's this?
Like you something's gonna go bad You've got
to let it go so they can learn they can improve
they can take it on board. They can be about
Yeah Yeah, so we got mom and dad's business and
there's one there's one little thing going on
They can't let it go or can't let the books go
and we can't let this phone call go and we've
got to deal with every client and all this person
coming all that gonna be a big client I'm just
gonna ran and get them. I will take it off this
person. It's like well, how can that person grow?
Yeah, so tell most people that start with us,
like, yeah, sometimes you won't do anything for
a day. Like, don't tell me you're working, just
say I didn't do anything. I assume you want to
do stuff. I assume you want to get better. If
you never do anything, you're not going to have
opportunities here. You know, it's obvious when
you, it's really obvious when people don't work,
you know, it's so obvious. You don't need numbers
or anything to tell you that, but they need to
learn how to do those things for themselves.
You're talking about the... previous generation,
the young kids these days and they need their
dopamine and things like that. But yeah, they
come out of school and everything's done and
they've got to do this and they have to do this
and they have to do this. So we don't want to
say you have to do it. But if you're able to
do things yourself, yeah, got a place here. Yep.
So that comes at a cost where you're wasting
money that day. But at other times, what are
you getting back? When the fund says learn how
to solve that problem, you're making that money
back. Most businesses don't need people to be
at 100 % productivity all the time to make money.
So you've got to factor that in as a cost to
where people are learning. You know, even we
give projects internally here to people and I'm
probably not quite ready. They have guidance,
they have some things to follow. They can ask
questions at all times, like we're not going
to let it go wrong. But we're happy for them
to waste two days trying to figure something
out. Because how are you going to learn? How
are you going to learn how things work and why
they work that way? If I'm always just telling
Rhiannon, you do this and then you do this and
then you do this and then you send it to this
person, it's fine, she did it. But the next time
it comes along, she's got to remember that exact
process. She won't understand why we do this
and this and this. So I say, oh, someone needs
help with the cash flow. We've got all these
reasons. This happened last week, actually. Maybe
even this week, it's Friday. What's the plan
for the cash flow? So here's some things we've
already got in place. Forgotten, not all of them
implemented. Let's write them down, put them
in a plan. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Here you go.
Here's some. Now you go research and add some.
They might be good. They might be bad. Doesn't
matter. She's going to spend a couple of days
trying to figure out cash flow for herself. Is
that good? I think so. But at least you get a
head around it, how it works and why things work
that way. And you've got to think about people
are people. They're independent. They have their
own brains. So you've got to let them come to
their own way of doing things. And when you micromanage,
there's no opportunity for people to use their
own brains. So you brought up the older generation
and before. it sometimes feels like it's a bit
of a self -fulfilling prophecy. We've hired these
young people and they can't do the job, so I'll
do it for them. I've got to do it my way. Job
done right, you've got to do it yourself? Yeah,
that sort of mentality, which then creates dependent
employees, which want to be micromanaged, or
probably don't want to be, but are used to being
micromanaged and that's easy, instead of thinking
for yourself. Yeah, it's interesting. Even that
saying, it's probably misrepresented. If you
want something done right, you do it yourself.
And it's not saying you do it yourself all the
time. It's saying if you want a guaranteed result,
do it yourself. But it's not saying you have
to do it yourself all the time. So you're looking
to replicate yourself in your employees? Well,
yeah, we'll make them the best they can be. So
they might get to your level, they might get
further. The way I view it is everyone that we're
helping, whether it's a client or employee. how
good can they be? What do they want to be? Like,
can we help them get there? You wouldn't want
to replicate yourself. If you're replicating
yourself, then you're limiting what the business
is going to do, because if people don't think
for themselves, they don't come up with new ideas
for you. And it's sometimes a really good idea
to have a new perspective on things that you
probably wouldn't have thought of on your own.
100%. I hate myself anyway. But um, fire me in
a day. But no, you're 100 % right. So like, You
don't know what you don't know. And by letting
people come to their own conclusions, obviously
you want systems and processes. And this is how
we do it. We do a training, we do an induction.
You get people to a point, yeah, you know they
can do it. You can see that they can do it. You
can see that they've done it multiple times.
You know they can do it. So after that, if they're
mucking up, there's something else. But after
that point, it's let people be people, let people
figure it out, because they'll figure better
ways. older generation, oh, so we do it because
it always works, you know, but we've got technology
coming through, we've got these other things.
So maybe they change it, maybe it doesn't go
wrong. What's the worst can happen? You just
change it back. Yep. Does that mean you shouldn't
try in the future? No. Does that mean you should
manage, micromanage everything they do? No. But
yeah, Ray, that's a really good point. If you,
if you micromanage, you are never going to get
good ideas out of people. Killing innovation
potentially. Yeah. Why do you think that is?
I think that comes down to the difference between
having a manager and having someone who leads
people. Yeah, okay. That's actually two different
roles, to be honest. But yeah, it's 100 % right.
What's the difference? A manager tends to focus
on systems and procedures and things that are
already in place. Adherence. Maybe try and make
them a bit better, but you're still fundamentally
looking at the systems and procedures that are
already in place. Yep. And just focusing purely
on... them because they're tried and tested and
they give you results. Yeah, make sure that the
things that are meant to happen happen. Yep.
So they manage. They spent all night thinking
that title up didn't they? You're pretty good
at managing. What are we going to call you? How
about a manager? Yeah, so if you want to make
sure that things that are here to and the systems
and procedure that you set up in your business
are followed, manager. If you don't want to do
the managing, get someone who can. If you can't
do it without micromanaging, get someone who
can. I'm a garbage manager. I'd be terrible at
the job. Okay, so what's the difference between
- Are you a leader? I don't know, maybe. So what's
the difference between a manager and a leader
then? So leaders are more likely to inspire people.
To throw their pen across the desk apparently.
Apparently Rhiannon's going to fidget with things
while we're recording live. I know who would
do that. Uncut, never edited. I think that's
a learnt train from her direct line manager.
Yeah, she got that from me. So you're explaining
what a leader is, what's the difference? Yeah,
leaders tend to inspire people rather than, you
know, focusing on things that are existing. You
want to inspire people to want to be better and
to come forth and give you new ideas as well.
Yeah, I think that's definitely right and it's
part of it. But, you know, managers are sort
of like, hey, let's do this. This is what we're
doing. Let's make sure it's right. Let's, you
know, day to day. Leaders are like, let's go
here. This is awesome. Change and innovation.
Yeah. Look at me. How good is this? Do leaders
create more leaders? You can do. Yeah, I suppose
managers can make more managers too. People look
up to different things. But yeah, the leader
and a manager is very different. So as a business
owner, you can look at it two ways. You don't
have to be managing everything in your business
to be the leader of the business. You might be
a terrible leader and you might be a terrible
manager and maybe you should work on the tools.
That's fine. You still own a business. that's
a mechanism that can work without you and you
still get a return on the side. There's nothing
wrong with that. That's actually probably the
best one because you're pretty redundant in that
business if you're just on the tools. That's
great. But yeah, as a manager, you're making
sure things are right. As a leader, you're going,
hey, this is where we need to get to. This is
amazing. This is cool. This is the right thing
to do. And then making people believe or we don't
have to make people, we don't have to brainwash
them. But here's the message, people. Who's in?
Help them catch the vision. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe
no one gets it or maybe it's a terrible idea.
Like if you're standing here. In the middle of
the water and you can't swim, you say, hey, how
good is this? No one's going to follow you in
there, that's fine. But yeah, if you've got the
vision of the business, like ours, just want
to help people, you know, as long as we're helping
clients, I'm happy. As long as we're trying hard
and we're trying to do the right thing, like
if you muck it up, it's okay. We'll always be
able to fix something. But the worst case is
usually not that bad. The best thing we can do
is we're helping them, we're trying to make it
better, and for most clients is they can't make
it better anyway. So if we muck something up
in the way, it's not going to get any worse,
but at least we know that's not the path. But
when it comes down to it, we don't want mistakes,
that's bad. But if you've made a mistake and
you haven't tried, that's one thing. If you've
tried to help the client, you've done everything
you can to make it better and it didn't work
out, well, that's not a problem. No one's gonna
be upset about that. you know for us I think
it's everyone in our business knows like we help
clients that's what we do. So if you're a person
who suspects that they may or may not be a micromanager,
they're a good manager or you're the owner of
a business and you've looked and you've gone
oh bugger I might be doing a little bit of this
micromanaging stuff myself. Oh yeah. Do you hire
leaders or do you develop leaders? Yeah good
question you go either way if you don't know
how to develop one you don't have to. the culture
or the size to develop them internally, then
yeah, get one in. But you want that leader to
believe what you believe. Yeah. There's lots
of stuff on that and throughout the world and
different speakers. But yeah, the leader's got
to take you in a direction you're happy to go.
And if you don't want that to be someone else,
you are the leader. So what's the direction that's,
hey, guys, let's do this. This is how it works.
And how cool is it? I love the word inspiration
that Ray used. Yeah. It's this. There's motivation
and there's inspiration. I mean, motivation is
quite temporary. You have to kind of re -motivate
yourself, whereas inspiration is long -term.
Yep. And a good leader will inspire you into
action and before you know it, you're doing it
because you want to. Yep. Yeah, it's interesting.
So if you think about, if we translate that into
something people see day to day, going back to
mum and dad's business, maybe it's the reception.
You muck this simple system up. Well, if people
have done this checklist 20 ,000 times, they've
ticked that off, they're not inspired, they don't
feel like they've achieved anything, they've
just ticked something off. Going through the
process. And we talked about imposter syndrome
before and that mainly affects high achievers
because they've done that awesome thing so many
times, they don't even think it's that good anymore.
So if you're managing people and you're expecting
them to adhere to these little things and there's
never that inspiration or that meaning behind
what they're doing, they're going to get bored,
they're going to muck it up. But if they can
go, oh, this is why we do it. Like, I said hello
and greeted the same person, the same people
hundreds of times. Every face looks the same
now. How do I still smile? It's like, oh, because
I know when people come in, we can make their
day. I just want them to be happy with it. My
goal is when they come in, they're just going
to be happy. That gives them a bit of a buzz.
It gives them that bit of dopamine. And then
we follow the systems and procedures along the
way. You don't necessarily have to be a leader
to inspire people. You could be a manager and
inspire people as well, but a leader's job is
definitely, what are we trying to do? There's
a great story about an employee at a hotel chain
and he works at two different hotel chains. And
at one hotel, he is bubbly and enthusiastic.
And that's because his managers empower him to
be his best self in that hotel chain. Go nuts.
Yep. Just be yourself. Here's what we expect
from you. go out and do it. And then at the other
one, he hates his job because every five minutes
someone's checking to make sure he's doing the
right thing. Yep. Which one are you going to
go to? Yeah. It's the same person. It's just
different management styles. Yeah. And then you'd
be thinking, you go to the one that gets paid
the most, which is not true. No, definitely not.
There's a certain amount of money where people
can live and it's going to be a fear, I hate
this place and I like this place. I mean, there's
an evolution of that, especially as a young person
coming out of university or even in the trades
or just unskilled labour. You're going for the
dollar early, but it doesn't take long for you
to realise that quality of life, for a couple
of dollars, you're going to take the job that's
less stress. Yeah. And then just going back a
little bit, you could do pathways to people,
but the person you mentioned in there, so yeah,
go nuts. You follow these things, you do a great
job, be yourself, and as long as this end result's
achieved within these guidelines, we don't mind.
Is that person going to want to get better in
that organisation and do more? More than likely.
Absolutely. Are they going to learn other things
like, oh yeah, I really want to get better, I
just love this organisation, I'd like to do this
and this, and they're going to try and learn
and do something themselves off their own back
to make something better or learn so they can
do something more. It's much more likely than
if you're sitting there, you hate the job, you've
got to do the same thing every day and there's
no progression, no opportunity. Conversely, if
that person doesn't have any aspiration, How
happy is he going to be coming in doing the same
job over and over and over again if he's just
empowered to do the same job? Just have fun every
day. Just be awesome. Just likes talking to people.
Our customers love you. You're great at your
job. There's plenty of pathways for progression,
but if you don't want to, we're not going to
force you to. That's a great example of just
getting out of the way. So micromanagers, you're
in the way. Sometimes you're part of the problem.
And you've got to be able to identify that. It's
like, oh, actually, I'm just this person all
the time. I've got better things to do. Well,
fine. You got better things. Go do them. get
out of the way. But they go and do their job.
Yeah, they're doing a pretty good job and, you
know, unless it goes drastically wrong, go nuts.
And if it's such a problem, you either change
your processes and your systems, or if the person
won't do it, you change the person. But yeah,
if you're getting people to, like, people come
in, they do a great job for a while and they
keep turning bad, it's probably not the people,
there's something in your business that's making
it go bad. And that's your job as an owner, as
a manager, as a leader. People don't want to
fail. No. They don't come into a job and go,
geez, I'm going to be crap at this. No one goes
to work this morning, goes, I'm just going to
make sure this is the worst day of my life. I
mean, eventually they do. There's plenty of workplaces
where people just come in because they have to
come in. No, no, no, but they don't go, oh, gee,
I have to come today and I'm going to make this
the worst day of my life. They're going to go,
oh, this is going to suck. Yeah. Yeah. So no
one has the intention of being as bad as they
can be every day. No. Surely it doesn't start
there. No. No, you have people actively sabotaging
things like there's a few issues that happen
on the way or you have someone that's got serious
issues, which is super rare. And potentially,
I mean, it's not a deliberate thing. You was
a business owner and that's happening in your
business. You might have just lost focus there
for a little bit. Yeah. And all of a sudden,
whoa, what's happened to my business? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, sometimes and sometimes micromanaging too
can be a little bit of the, we're talking about
imposter syndrome. Last podcast. But you're like,
oh gee, I'm not there. I haven't checked in with
these people. I don't know what's going on. I
better do that because they might be thinking
about leaving or they might be this or they might
be that. But hang on, maybe just have a bit of
confidence and trust that a bit of faith, faith's
a good word, but just a bit of faith. Like, yeah,
this person means, well, it's a nice person.
I know they can do the job. They're signed off,
they're trained. They've done a good job for
two years. Let's just trust that that person's
okay. And if they make a mistake, they do their
bit there at level best. friends from the shop.
Level best. Do your level best to fix it. And
that's really all you can ask, isn't it? Support
them when they make a mistake because they're
a good employee. Yeah, correct. You're having
a bad day. Maybe they're just having a bad two
weeks, you know. Hey, is everything okay? Yeah,
I'm having a bad few weeks. All right, cool.
Let's see if we can get through it. Do your best.
Just wait for them to come to you as well. Like
a lot of the time if somebody needs help with
something, if you just wait, they will come directly
to you and ask you for help. And if you're going,
gee, my employees never come to me, well, you
mightn't be a bit unapproachable, whether you
think you are or not. You think, I tell them
I'm approachable, but yeah, it doesn't mean you
are. The person who tells everyone they're approachable,
they're definitely not. Well, you're harassing
them so much that they're like, I don't want
to go to you because you're just going to tell
me that I'm wrong. Like, you know, if you don't...
The trust is in there basically, so you've got
to work on trust. It sounds like it's a balancing
act. Yeah. From micromanaging to good managing.
Not good managing, but managing. I always like
to liken things to larger businesses. Yep. And
I had a snoring test or a sleep test, sleep test,
see how many sleep avenues I had. And the person
who showed me how to use the equipment did the
checklist and everything. They had not been doing
it very long. This is a company with 150 locations
throughout Australia. Yep. She didn't really
know how to answer any of my questions. They
did bill me a lot of money and I did successfully
complete the test. And everything was fine. Yep.
So if they can do it, like I wasn't in the world,
I was happy I got the result that I wanted. It
all worked out. She would be fine later on. Like
she's still a nice person. So even though we
took a little bit longer to get some spots, like
I was, you know, I was happy with her. I wasn't
going to be. Like, oh, what are you doing? Once
you choose this career, you're garbage. Yeah,
but if you let people be people, in your example
with your friend, if you let people be people
and follow the guidelines and you've got it there,
get out of their way and you'll find that it'll
work itself out. If it takes them two months
to get to the point where they actually can do
it properly, that's good. But if you have harassed
them for two months, they're going to be still
at square one. Good point. This is amazing like
one of the things some people come and they're
like, oh, how do you get people? Good people
and this that the other and you're like, oh have
you got and what are you doing? What do you micromanage?
I'm checking I'm checking everything checking
everything. It's like do you need to check it?
Yeah, because if it's wrong, it's a big problem
Well, how often is it wrong? It's like I pretty
much never Yeah, but they'll be that one time
yeah when it's wrong do you give feedback and
like I'm not saying that in a way like I'd die
but People are like, oh, no, I don't really.
I'll just fix it because it's easier to do it
myself. It's nice and quick and it's just wasting
everyone's time. Well, give them that little
bit of feedback because they want to do a good
job. They want to get better. So yeah, just make
sure if you're micromanaging and you're like,
how do you get out of it? Well, just look at
what you're doing. Try to pull yourself out of
the loop. Try to get out of the way. And I think
the easiest way to look at managing is how can
you make it easiest for this person? Tell you
the best that they can be. That's your job. And
when they start out, you can start with a low
risk reward. areas of their job. So if they stuff
this bit up, it's not really going to affect
the bottom line. So let's give them that autonomy
and let them go nuts. And then slowly they're
going to grow into the role. And then, okay,
this one's a bit riskier. If they make a few
mistakes here, it could cost us a little bit,
but they've shown that they can do it so far.
Yeah. And as people will be going, okay, we've
got people doing serious stuff, being paid a
fair bit, they can't follow. They can't. They're
still not doing their job. It's like, well, same
rules apply. Yeah. Yeah. Training, your induction,
you sign them off, you get them to a point where
you're as confident, happy, good, good, good,
so we know they can do it. Yep. Then your job
as a manager is to do whatever you can to help
them do their job. Not make them do their job,
to help them do their job. Because they don't
want to do their job. Most people want to do
their job. If they don't want to do their job,
find someone that wants to do their job. Most
people want to earn their wage. Yep. If people
just hate their job, well, no worries, that's
fine. Part ways, they'll find a job they like.
Good for them, good for you. Give someone else
an opportunity. They probably work in a call
centre. For a month. Or a year and a half. Some
people have staying power. So micromanagement,
I think we've covered that pretty well. What
is it? Different ways to do things. But I think
at the end of the day, if you just think people
are people, have a bit of faith that people want
to do well. How can you help them succeed? Look
at things from that way. Go back to your systems
and processes. If you don't have those, you can't
manage someone. Let people know really clearly.
what the expectations are is communicate yep
if you know if everyone knows the expectations
what needs to be done doesn't then you're all
on the same page and that's probably where a
lot of this breaks down the uh the biggest trust
them yeah trust if they know it and you know
that they know it then trust them to do it because
they will do it yeah that's a big part and just
be aware that just because you trust them doesn't
mean they trust you the biggest the biggest problem
with communication is the belief that it's happened
oh yeah yeah oh tom it's a good one The illusion.
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, just trust for a second.
You can trust them. You say, oh, but I do trust
them. But if they don't trust you, it doesn't
matter because they're still nervous about something.
So the trust is a two way street. You've got
to, they've got to earn it off you. You've got
to earn it off them. And, but you just got to
have the faith, you know, people want to do the
right thing. Sounds pretty hard, this business
thing. Who would want to run a business? Yeah.
Nah, it's good. Sounds like it could be fun,
but it sounds like a lot of hard work getting
there. It's pretty simple when it comes down
to it. Just practice and get better. I think
Rowan did a really good job of summing up our
topic today. That was your job? Yeah, exactly.
Didn't he like how I managed you? Oops. Anyway,
sorry. Getting back to my point, that gives me
a bit more time to talk about our next topic.
I know a lot of people probably missed out when
we were talking about how to recruit new people
earlier in our podcast today because we've got
a little bit off topic. So we're going to chat
about that next time. So stay tuned. How do you
find good people? Off topic, that doesn't sound
like us. Definitely. How do you find good people?
That's going to be a good topic of podcast, I
think. Good. Listen next time and you'll find
out. I will. Goodbye. So long.