Hello and welcome back to the Business Abundance
Podcast. I am here with Rowan and Ian. Hello.
Hello. And we're talking today about the motivation
of employees and how we can I guess help employees
and also help yourself to get the best output
of your employees. How can we all achieve more?
And also we're going to have a quick little review
in there of if you're a micromanager. So you
can ask yourself some questions. Look yourself
in the mirror. I wish we could have like a little
live thing here and we put your hand up. If you're
a micromanager, we can't. We should start filming
this. Maybe just think to yourself, do you think
you're a micromanager? Yes or no? There's no
maybes. There's no 80 % says you are, you aren't.
I wonder how many people would honestly say,
yes, yes, I'm definitely a micromanager. Or no,
and then they're going to think later. So, you
know, just think about that. Yes or no, lock
that in and we'll see you later. Review at the
end of this podcast. Keeping in mind the book
that most of our conversation is based off is
drive the surprising truth about what motivates
us by Daniel Pink and he explores the science
behind motivation and challenges of How people
are driven in the traditional sense I guess and
he talks about it being based on autonomy mastery
and purpose so Rowan Out of those three, which
one do you think best suits you? I don't think
there is a... I'd say all three, to be honest.
I like to improve, which is mastery, and feel
like I'm better than things that I was before.
Then their purpose is important. I don't like
to do things for no reason. I don't like to do
things that I don't like. Or for people I don't
like. And autonomy. Yeah, I'd like to be in control
of my own destiny. I don't have to be in control
of everyone, but I like to be in control of what
I'm doing. So yeah, it's probably all three for
me, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Um, he also talks,
I guess, on a second layer, being you're either
motivated by external rewards, like bonuses,
uh, or the fear of punishment. So there's two
layers. The stick or the carrot. Yeah. Yeah.
Probably more of a stick. I'm just processed
for elimination there, like am I motivated by
punishment? No. No, probably anti -motivated.
So I must be the other one. The carrot. Yeah.
Even though I don't really feel like the carrot,
but. Sometimes carrots are delicious. Cook them
up with a bit of sugar. Uh, yeah, it changes.
Uh, as you, as, as you, as us Gen X's not quite
boomers. Um. As you get a bit older, your motivations
change and I would have said when I was younger
that autonomy was very important to me. I wanted
to be in control of my own destiny while also
being told what to do. I worked in a few factories.
But purpose is a big motivator for me with a
family and having the freedom. Having the freedom
to work on projects that I think are making a
difference is a massive motivator for me, almost
beyond motivation and going into inspiration.
I guess if you could identify that better, do
you reckon you could improve your performance
at work? I think undoubtedly. If you're inspired
to work by your job, I've probably said it before,
but motivation needs to be topped up and inspiration
comes from within and is always going to be there.
So find something that inspires you. Whereas
motivation generally does need a stick or a carrot.
So find a happy medium in a workplace. And then
if you are motivated and repeatedly motivated
by whatever it takes to motivate you, I imagine
you're going to be a much better employee. Um,
but if you're inspired, the world's your oyster.
Yep. Yeah. Outside of this podcast episode, I
guess we were talking about autonomy in the workplace.
And generally you can say that you can give people
autonomy and they'll work better. But Rowan,
you were mentioning that some people don't want
autonomy. It's actually. the exact opposite of
what they want. Yeah. So if we look at autonomy,
that's just been self -directed, basically, the
ability to choose what you're doing. What were
the three things, Z? Mastery. I know for autonomy,
so I was like, sort of choose your task, how
you do your task and when you do your task. I
think was what you were saying. So for a lot
of people like me, that's 100 % what I'm looking
for. And then I think you're similar, Z. And,
um, you know, various people and probably in
our organisation, it's probably more that way.
But then you've also got people that don't want
to make the decision. So they might be fantastic.
They might be super clever. They might do a fantastic
job, but they want to be told what to do, when
to do it and how to do it. Because then they
can go take, I did my job and go home. They can
also, uh, psychology of sales stuff from many,
many moons ago back when I was a boy. People
do want to be told what to do because then they
don't have to think. Most people are quite lazy
thinkers. So from a sales perspective, the sales
process is, I'm going to tell you about the product,
I'm going to answer the questions that you have.
Now it's time to buy, sir, so please hand over
your credit card. It's amazing how many salesmen
don't ask for the sale or tell the person that
it's time to buy. We've covered all your objections.
We've covered all the risk now It's time to buy
and the person feels more comfortable and sometimes
that feels awkward as a salesperson when you're
first starting out But then when you do it you
go, actually people do really want to be told
what to do So we're talking again before mr.
Pink and what's his first name? Daniel and Daniel
Pink talking about he can be motivated by Autonomy
or purpose or mastery? So let's say you're motivated
by purpose you autonomy might be the direct opposite
of that. So I'm looking to learn stuff, do things,
you know, be sort of stimulated. That's fundamentally,
you know, I want some, something going on. I
think most people do, but is that with their
family at home or is that at work? So some people
are professional, like they want that sort of
thing. Some people want it to be in sporting
context or a hobby or whatever that is. Some
people might be the family. So then if you're
telling them to use all their brain power, make
all the decisions, do everything. blah, blah,
blah, at work, that's actually stopping them
from having go home and enjoy the family, which
is what they want to do. Play with the grandkids.
Only got so much bandwidth. Yeah. So that's in
a case where, you know, picking the right motivator,
um, you know, could be autonomy is great and
always sounds great for everyone. But at the
end of the day, what are they actually prioritizing
their limited amount of time and brainpower for?
Um, still do a good job. They might be the person
at home that has to make all the decisions and
they go to work to get away from that. Yeah.
So I think like the three categories to me, I
haven't read the book, but I think apply to everyone,
but it's not in a work context. So it might be
picking that in the work context. Yeah. Let's
focus on autonomy in the work context now. So
it talks about employees being able to have control.
over four aspects in their work, which is task,
what they work on time when they work technique,
how they approach it and team who they work with.
So having control over these makes them feel
empowered and makes them feel as though they
are having a meaningful contribution. I say makes
them feel like that seems like it's just a bit
of us versus them in control of their own destiny.
Well, yeah, it does mean that they will end up
with greater creativity because they're given
the flexibility and they're able to figure out
what works best for them, which likely will end
up in a better outcome. Do you think that could
be a positive of the recent pandemic? Well, it's
probably not recent anymore. It's four years
ago. But people were forced into an autonomous
situation in their workplaces where Okay, you're
working from home now or students were having
to learn from home and there's one thing I learnt
that teenagers and pre -teens aren't very good
at autonomously doing their schoolwork without
someone standing in front of the classroom saying,
you need to do this. And at the end of the day,
we're all just grown up children. Some of us
grow up quicker than others. Some of us take
50 years and still aren't grown up. But a lot
of people had to adapt to, here's my day. I didn't
clock in today. I woke up and now I have to do
my job. And then now we're seeing a lot of businesses
are trying to call their workforces back into
the office. I think you said Amazon. And there's
a bit of pushback because people have had that
freedom to design their work days. or not do
their work days as well. Well, that too. But
those that were successful in an autonomous situation,
you may see that there'll be some movement in
the workforce. You want me to now do this when
I'm really good at doing it like this? I don't
know if I want to work like that anymore. I think
the autonomy is quite an interesting one because
you can get people that are very good at it and
people that are very bad at it. but we're talking
about micromanagement at the same time. So if
we're looking at it from that point of view,
what's stopping you from letting people be autonomous
in your business? I think that would be the question
that Amazon would need to ask is, have we had
a drop in productivity because people are working
from home and then measure it after they bring
people back into the office? Some valuable metrics.
they can measure against there. So I think why
would a business owner not want people to be
autonomous? Is it the question they're asking?
Is it they don't trust their employees to do
it or they feel like something will go wrong?
Yeah. And is that the conclusion that your employers
would jump to straight away? Yeah, it might go
wrong. Now I'm afraid if I do it, I might get
it wrong and then I'll be in trouble or the business
will be in trouble. Not so much I. So, you know,
with a business, a small business, they sort
of stay small because there aren't systems and
processes to be repeated to make sure that things
go right. And we've talked about that in the
past, but I think there's a bit more to that.
The more you think about it, which is not necessarily
systems and processes, because a small business
has that. If you look at a lot of big businesses,
they have the systems of process and the training,
but it's a piece of paper with a dot points on
it. There's a fair bit of interpretation to have
it. And that goes to someone who's been in the
role for a week and then they start doing the
job. So what's the difference there? I think
in the small business is that the owner is a
micromanager, whether they sort of see themselves
as or not, and they require that, oh, this might
go wrong, it might cost me $500, I need that
$500, or I'm the business owner, I need to know
what's happening, it's my business, so I tick
boxes. So they're not actually letting people,
what's the four things in autonomy you mentioned
before? It's about task, time, technique, team.
Yep. So I'm not letting that person decide all
of those things. I'm having input at some stage
or all stages of that and then suddenly my business
can't grow because I'm becoming an essential
cog in all wheels. It'd be safe to say that if
you can't have a six month holiday and not touch
base with your business and the business collapses,
you're probably a micro manager. Not necessarily
true. You might have a role in that business.
So you could be the business owner and the salesperson.
Yeah, because we all have jobs too. But I think,
yeah, if you have some key people leave and you
can't replace them in your business, then you
probably, yeah. So I think if we're talking about
micromanaging, mentioned it before, but you're
afraid of things going wrong, but potentially
you're stopping a lot of things from going right.
and you're stopping a lot of growth. And innovation?
Yeah, which is something I've been trying to
work on. So I did a coaching course for cricket
and they showed wicket keepers, wicket keepers
catch the ball, Ian's a wicket keeper, a bit
of an old one now, but you know, still, yeah.
So they catch the ball and it showed at five
people from international level, so top of their
game, you know, very successful and showed their
techniques and they all look completely different
to the eye. like completely different and so
when we teach things this is how you do it this
is how I've done it you should do this and this
and this and oh this step you did a little bit
wrong correct and so whether that's with a child
or with a with a person or with an employee whatever
that's generally how we teach um and they broke
it back down to a few things so you've got to
at all times be able to see the ball so if someone's
in your way what do you do you move your head
doesn't matter where you move no you just need
to be able to see the ball and you need your
hands to be able to touch the ground and stay
low at all times and then I can't remember what
the last one was, hands out in front of you so
that when the ball hits it you can cushion it
and catch it instead of fumble it. That was pretty
much the... and then when you look back at the
five pictures they all had those things. But
looked drastically different. Massively different.
So outcomes are more important than process.
Yes and at various times they're all best in
the world. Yep. So if we think about how we teach
things often we are this is how we do it here
do this this this this to the nth degree but
can you break that back into some three or four
core things that think about that larger business
they have the tick box you know yeah it's pretty
basic but they're allowing that person to make
it put their mark on it as a wicket keeper i
think you've just created the ultimate metaphor
for success in business by using wicket keepers
and we are quite amazing well done And then I
have a couple of other stories, but... About
Wikipedia? No. Oh, I'm bored now. Just in different
sort of frames, but I think it helps you think
about the concept. But my son, two and a half
years old, had a conversation with me the other
day, and so it wasn't the whole dad juice, you
know, or I'd like some orange juice, please,
and that sort of conversation. He's sitting there
and he goes, Daddy, what's that noise? The only
thing, the only noise was the shower. So I said,
Dad, Mum's in the shower. Yeah, both of us. Mum's
in the shower. He just ignored me. Two minutes
later. Daddy, what's that noise? It's the shower,
buddy. Ignored me again. Two minutes later. Daddy,
what's that noise? So it was raining. So, okay.
Do you mean the rain? Ignored me. And then another
two minutes goes by. Daddy, what's that noise?
Thinking about it and I'm trying to personally
get out of people's way. and not tell people
what to do. I said, you tell me. He's Bailey
farted. So he's been like for a two and a half
year old sitting on that for 10 minutes. But
so now I learnt that he can actually have a conversation.
He can go, I'd like to talk about this. He had
a little bit of a sense of humour. That was a
bit of abstract as well. And you know, most parents
and me as well on that example, just answer the
question. And then they keep asking and you keep
answering. But if we just get out of the way,
what happens? He's learning how to impart his
knowledge on the world. Yeah. And if we keep
answering those questions. Correct. We stifle
that. And then another example from a sports
club, which is probably more business related.
Wiki keepers? No, no, no. So that's personal
performance. But, you know, obviously run a business
that helps businesses do things. So I know a
couple things. about how to do things in certain
ways but um there's two two young guys for both
18 running a program at the club and um they're
really keen to get a lot of people there so you
know i could seriously help with that um but
i thought oh we'll see how they go let them be
in charge they'll reap the rewards they'll learn
something and this is the junior program it's
junior but for you know four to seven year olds
young youngs anyway so once really really keen
he's like I'd like to like to market this more
than last year and I like to do this what's her
budget $300 what can we do can we do this so
you can do whatever you want I'll help you but
just you know tell me what you want to do now
you're in charge and so he wanted to do a social
media post he said we're gonna take a photo of
us and that photo is gonna be big and then I'm
gonna have I'll send you the words I want on
it but that's we want that posted up on social
media and it's gonna be great so I've taken a
photo of two eight -year -old guys with dirty
mustaches you know you and I were talking about,
I'm thinking, appearance with small children,
like, how's this appealing to them? And you're
saying that with your filter? Oh, 100%. Yep.
Yep. So if I was putting XYZ system and procedure
in, you know, I understand engagement, I understand
this, yeah, authenticity and all that sort of
stuff. Right. But like, no, it's fine. They're
in charge. We're doing it their way. The sky's
not going to fall if we post this. Not at all.
it'll be fine. We'll see how it goes. So anyway,
the week before we had a big club function and
it was season launched. There was a hundred people
there. This is the premier of the state, the
mayor. So it was pretty big. A professional photographer
there taking photos of people and it was nice.
There were photos, portraits of a lot of club
members, old and young. And obviously when that
goes up on social media, you get a lot of engagement,
people tagging, sharing and seeing faces they
hadn't seen for a long time. So that's... Everyone
gets the warm and fuzzies. Yeah, like that's
a pretty big standard good engagement social
media post. So that had been up for a week by
the time we posted this little flyer with their
face on it. And in 12 hours it had more views,
impressions and engagements than the photos did
in a whole week. And I wouldn't have expected
that. They didn't know anything about what was
going on, but they had rough guidelines and they
achieved an outcome that they can now use for
the rest of their life and great example. And
what could have happened if you you weren't able
to step back there and go oh I don't think this
is going to work I think we better do it a different
way. Might have been better might have been worse.
Yeah exactly. but yeah we will never know and
everyone was involved and now they're like oh
how many people we've got registered i've got
this and i'm really keen to get more people there
but if i was taking control they wouldn't be
keen to do it but like oh we want more people
what can we do so you've given them you've empowered
them they have ownership of the program and autonomy
and autonomy and probably purpose yeah and they
get to enjoy that yeah so that's a relatively
young age yeah Anyway, I talked a lot there so
sorry for my voice but that was you asking about
my thoughts on autonomy and I think there's three
examples there that they're completely different
but come back to that core if you don't know
what's going to happen until you get out of the
way. I was going to say the highlight for me
was how you turned Wicked Keepers into a metaphor
but actually the highlight is how you worked
your son farting into an awesome story for the
podcast. So good. There's lessons everywhere.
Who knew? He had a sense of humour and he could
carry conversation. He is quite eloquent. Smart
kid. Does that answer your question, Zee? It
does, always. What was the question? So we're
looking at if people need to... Can they recognise
if they are a micromanager, essentially? And
we've got some points. We went around the table,
didn't we? We sort of thought that people probably
couldn't. Yeah. Yeah, probably couldn't recognise
that they are micromanagers. Quick show of hands,
who said yes they are? Not I. I have a few so
I'll let you finish my hand, but yeah, maybe
in some areas of life. Yeah, it's definitely
like we all have things that we are and not like,
I can think about lots of things on micromanaging,
micromanaging half the podcast. But there's things
that we always like, our comfort zone. We like
things done in a certain way because we're human.
I'm not just going to hand over money to someone
and be like, oh yes, have free reign. Yeah, correct.
There's just some things that obviously you want
to know details about. However, if we're looking
at getting the best out of your employees, there's
some things you shouldn't be doing. essentially,
like being involved in every single detail or
not delegating tasks. There's some tasks you
can hold on to because you don't feel comfortable
handing that responsibility over to people. But
if you've employed them to do it, then... Let
them do it, get out of the way. And if they can't
do it, if you literally can never trust anyone
with anything, then you employ the wrong people.
And that could be a mindset thing as well. So
you might not be able to trust them yet. They
might not be quite there yet, but if you've got
that open mind to say that person actually could
do this, I just need to refine that a little
bit. Yeah, you can slowly transition them into
that role. But if you're sitting there feeling
anxious when you're not in control, something's
not quite right. That might be a you problem.
Make a list of what would need to change for
me to be able to do that. That's a really good
idea. So everything's possible. The world's a
big place. Lots of people achieve a lot of things.
Just what would need to change for me to feel
differently about that and then work on that.
Yeah. Yeah. The same, I guess this is reflecting
on the story you're told about the guys with
the social media posts. You need to focus on
how you can't focus. I'm losing my voice now.
You can't focus on how tasks are done. Yeah,
you've got to look at the outcome. So set those
guidelines. But the question is to ask yourself,
should you figure out if you're a micromanager?
Do I trust my team to get their work done without
constant input? So if you're unsure of your team's
abilities or need to step in often, you might
be micromanaging. If you find yourself giving
specific tasks, so very detailed tasks on how
to do something, You're not letting your team
figure out their own approach because you want
things to be done your way. This can be suffocating
for the people trying to get something done.
How annoying is it when someone says, can you
pick this up and can you just grab that? Make
sure you don't do that on the way when you've
done it a hundred times. Yeah, like you can sit.
That's why processes exist but when I encourage
people to make processes I always say give it
to the person who's going to be doing it because
they'll tell you if it's realistic or not. You
can set the expectations of how you want things
to be done, how clean you want the area to be
but let them figure it out. It's a fine line
between here's a process and here's me teaching
you how to suck eggs. You have to allow for some
common sense and I know that the people older
than me still maintain that common sense died
with their generation. But it's out there and
the kids coming through are the same as we were.
You just need to find it. They've still got common
sense. Get out of the way. Exactly, get out of
the way. You mentioned that when we were talking
before and you said your son, like, you know,
he doesn't know how to use utensils and you're
always on to him about that, but he's got a job
now. Yep. Yeah, he's in fast food, which is a
perfect example of autonomy and systems and processes.
Anyone who's seen the founder, the Ray Kroc story,
McDonald's, they started out as massive micromanagers.
It had to be done this way. The burgers will
be flipped at X amount of minutes. You'll be
making the fries at X amount of minutes and the
temperature will be X amount of degrees. And
then you will move like this and this is exactly
how it will happen. And then that developed into
processes which then developed into a seamless
automation of a process that used to take half
an hour to make a burger was done in a minute.
And now that's replicated and duplicated across
the entire world that if you walk into a burger
franchise it will be done the same here in Tasmania
as it will be done in New York. and you can teach
a 14 year old kid to do that and he will still
feel autonomous once he knows how to do his job.
You talk about, you know, they have logic and
old fellas and ladies don't think that kids these
days have logic. But going to the utensils thing,
when you said it, I may be thinking, it's like,
well, you know, what are we doing? We're telling
them they need to use the utensils, we're showing
them how to use the utensils, but he keeps not
doing it. But it's probably logical to him because
he doesn't know why, like it still works. So
he hasn't had a reason to do it your way. It's
still ending up in my mouth. Yeah, he's like,
why should I do it your way? It doesn't make
sense. So that is the logic fundamentally. Yeah,
absolutely. And I guess the thing is to find
a way to let that person learn this is why you
do it this way and come to that conclusion themselves.
Anyone? Sometimes I just feel good that I can
look at him and go, God, you're an idiot. You're
not an idiot on the floor. Yeah, exactly. I've
still got something I do better than you, son.
Sorry, Z. Are you frequently stressed about project
details that other people are handling? So if
you feel you need to detail everything. I guess
that's the thing that's going through my mind.
You can set expectations, but don't set expectations
for how you open your laptop and then how you
turn it on and then how to, like that, that's
micromanaging. That will drive you barmy. Level
off from that. You give me someone. to manage
a project, the project manager, and then you're
getting involved in how that project's managed.
So that's well past, how do you open your laptop?
And it's like, okay, what have you got? Have
you done this? Have you looked in the, can you
show me the project? Like you've got to get,
well, that's your project. If you've given them
that responsibility means they're capable. So
you don't give to someone that's not capable.
So they let the other way because they'll make
some mistakes and you've got to let people make
mistakes and people are okay when mistakes happen.
So they get fixed. But if you're not letting
that person make a mistake, then fix that themselves.
They're not going to learn to do that in the
future. Yeah. And are you still getting the outcomes
when you do step back? Yeah. There's the two
scores of thought. Like you don't fall to the
top of a mountain in success. Like you don't
take the helicopter up. You have to climb the
mountain. So the process is the most important
part. But At the same same token, there's more
than one way up the mountain Some people might
find if they walk around the side of the mountain.
There's an elevator And now we're up the mountain
a lot quicker You could even look at that as
the mountain is just one of those key things
here, right? You've got to walk up the mountain
Yeah, but how you fit enough to get up the mountain
everyone would do that different way. Yep So,
you know, you don't have to get that involved.
Can that help you then as a potential micromanager
to step back and go? Okay, what's the outcome
we desire here? Joe blogs over there and Mary
blogs over there are gonna get to the outcome
in two different ways and that's perfectly okay
And it's not my way so set expectations on the
outcome not necessarily the process and key milestones
Yeah, and and the final question is how often
do I give feedback on the process first the outcome?
So if you're not Yeah, yeah same thing expectations
on the outcome not the process. So if you figure
out that you are a micromanager, if you started
this podcast and said, no, no, not a micromanager,
but then you're like, oh yeah, no, definitely
a micromanager. Micromanaging tendencies. Yes,
micromanaging tendencies. If you've been sitting
here listening to this podcast and going, geez,
I would have done that differently, you're probably
a micromanager. So you need to set clear expectations
for outcomes and take a step back. That will
Feel very anxiety provoking and I know it's kind
of contradictory to the fact that we talked about
in earlier Conversation about are you stressed
about project details? You will be stressed when
you set clear expectations for the outcome and
not involved in the process So that will be a
bit contradictory, but it will wear off when
you see that the outcome is not as terrible as
you expected it to be without your input. And
you'll find a lot of people do things better
than you anyway. Especially if you've employed
them to do that job. Get out of their way and
let them do it. Delegate the tasks fully. So
start with small tasks because it will feel overwhelming
and gradually... Delegate to larger projects
and this doesn't have to happen over two days.
It can happen over months Any progress is good
progress. Just a brief one on that overwhelm.
So you got that overwhelms good. I mean a lot
of people look at that Overwhelm was being a
pain pain point and anxiety causing have a look
at that from a different lens and go, can that
overwhelm what I'm feeling right now or that
anxiety I'm feeling right now is actually my
brain resisting some change. And if I can embrace
that, I'm creating new neural pathways. So it's
not just a benefit to my business, it's a benefit
to me as a person. You're growing. Getting that
mastery. You're in the mastery, 100%. That was
a good segue. She's something segwaying like
crazy. Focus on feedback and development and
encourage your team to make decisions. And then
at the end, just regularly reflect on your management
style because you will fall back in. I say you
will, but likely. No, they will. You'll fall
back. Everyone will. There's always improvement.
We all do. There's always times you'll look at
something and learn more. Don't gloss over the
feedback either. The number one reason a customer
leaves a business is apathy. They feel like you
don't care anymore. And the number one reason
that employees leave a business is apathy. If
someone's doing a good job, and they're doing
it differently to you, but they're doing a good
job, let them know. You don't need to give them
$5 an hour extra. You can simply say, thanks,
you're doing a great job. And people will come
back. Yeah, so I guess... When you employ people,
allow them to do their jobs, do give them the
autonomy, recognise that they are capable, that
you employed them because they are capable, and
if you find yourself slipping into some micromanaging
tendencies with these people, recognise that
they won't find that very comfortable. And slap
yourself. You're only hurting yourself. If you
want some freedom, if you want a successful business,
if you want it to work when you're not directly
involved in everything, if you want people to
enjoy going there, then get out of the way. It's
okay to get it wrong while you're doing that
as well because you're changing things. If you
are one of the people that started this podcast
and said, no, no, there's no way I'm a micromanager,
and then you're like, oh, actually, maybe I am.
That's the first step of an amazing self -reflection
moment. And it's not an easy thing to do. And
then when you start to try and change things
for yourself, to try and grow, you're going to
get it wrong. And guess what? It's okay to get
it wrong. It's okay to fail. It's okay to fail.
As long as you're failing forwards. There's an
old saying, I can't even remember who said it.
It's probably someone like a Zig Ziglar. Fail
forwards, fail often. It's... Don't take things
so seriously like, you know, you fail at school
when you fail tests and you fail learning this,
you fail to cook the pavlova, you fail with this,
blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, if you play
sport, how many times you fail on that all the
time, but you're just always learning and getting
better. So if you're not failing, you're not
trying anything new. So grow, people, grow. God
damn it. Good luck All right, we'll wrap it up
here and we'll see you all in the next podcast
so long