Welcome to the Business Abundance Podcast, providing
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www .businessabundance .online. Hello and welcome
to the Business Abundance Podcast. I'm here with
Rowan. Hi everyone. And I am Zee. Today, we're
going to be chatting about rethinking business
or like... different ways to go about business.
And I just want to point out that we're not going
through extensive case studies. Every single
way that you can do business in a different way.
But we've picked a business to do a bit of a
case study on that is quite different from our
listeners businesses. And that is toilet paper.
So who gives a crap is the business. Sorry, language
warning. And there is a language warning. We
all do it. It's good to learn from this business.
They do marketing a little different, they do
profit a little different, they do business a
little different. I grew up buying toilet paper
from the shelves. in Woolies. And now you can
do it like Netflix. That's the best story of
crying over growing up. I was getting toilet
paper from the shelves in Woolies. I think I
hear that again. Talking about how many plies
you can get. And now you can have it delivered
to your door in shiny packages. In fact, I had
a Christmas present wrapped in who gives a crap
wrapping. So it's like Dollar Shave Club, but
for toilet paper. Yeah, yeah. and which is now
so pretty that you can wrap Christmas presents
in it. In the the wiping part or the wrapping?
No, no, no, no, not the actual toilet paper,
the wrapping around the toilet paper. Yeah, right.
Yeah, because they come in like a lot of different
colors. And so someone was like, oh, it'd be
cool if I just kept this and then I could wrap
toilet like toilet paper and I hang on presents
with toilet paper wrapping. Do you reckon someone
received a present like, oh, this is a bit crappy.
I'm a dad now, I can make dad jokes. That's shocking.
So, it gives a crap. They are a direct to consumer
toilet paper company and they were established
in 2012. They've developed quite the community
around their brand. And that's largely because
they have a commitment to environmental sustainability.
So I think it's around 50 % of their profits
go towards improving hygiene around the rest
of the world. So they make toilet paper, tissues,
paper towel, but it's all made from recyclable
materials or bamboo. I should also mention this
is a non -sponsored ad. If anyone's listening,
we're happy to receive free toilet paper. For
the rest of our lives. And by association, free
Christmas wrapping. Yes, save the planet. There
we go. So, yes, as I said, they give a lot of
their 50%, I think it's 50 % of their profits
way to improve world hygiene. and improving sanitation
globally. Oh, and building toilets as well. So
that's their business model. And when it comes
to their marketing, they do it through humor,
relatability. I mean, it's not a - Conversational.
It's not a glorious industry, I guess. It's not
pretty, but they've made it quite entertaining.
There's not a lot. No, Seth Godin, he, um, in
marketing, the theory there is to create a tribe.
And I know we've talked about that in one of
our podcasts before, and that's exactly what
they're doing. They're building a community of
toilet paper, worshipping Christmas present wrapping,
sanitation, improving. It's pretty much toilet
paper though. Everyone needs it. They do. and
especially during COVID. But yeah, they make
it quite pretty and in their marketing, they
are really transparent. So they actually share
detailed reports of their outcomes and their
charitable contributions and environmental savings.
And when it comes to customer involvement, their
customers are involved in voting on new designs
or products. They're very open, they're very
honest, they don't keep all the savings to themselves,
and they support a cause. Now, I have a lot of
friends that use this company and - How often
do you talk with your friends about the toilet
paper that they use? But it's, it's not, you
just see their stuff everywhere. Like it's just
like - Because it's like a subscription model
or something like that. And so you see that their
toilet paper gets like rocked up and they have
these huge boxes full of toilet paper. Yeah.
And so it'll like sit in the corner of their
bathroom. I'm not having trouble taking this
seriously, but I'm having trouble not making
stupid jokes. But what do you think the delivery
drivers? So like, let's say there's a huge box
of who gives a crap, right? And it's rocking
up. And then there's two neighbors. It's a subscription
model. So there's a frequency you choose I guess
like how often you need toilet paper So like,
you know, see you've got this gigantic double
box stack out the front of your house And then
I've just got you know, just one nice little
one What do you think? It doesn't matter it's
successful business Now why are we using them
for An example, well, I picked them because they
use their humor in marketing, you know how, but
they're not unprofessional about it. I mean,
it's not a pretty product, but we have a lot
of clients and I've talked to a lot of people
who say that they want to be professional in
their communication. And often that means quite.
What is professional that's something I've always
thought because I'm in a professional industry
and I get called professional and I do not think
I'm professional one bit I Would say like if
I were to think of professional I'd be like you
use does not instead of doesn't like you You
don't use your likes and you don't use emojis.
You don't things are quite direct and it's like
signing a contract. So that's what it feels like
when you're talking professionally. But yeah.
Who likes a professional? So let's turn that
into a different way of looking at it. So if
we're just having a chat and you're not going
to use an emoji, so you're not going to smile
at all, you're just going to like passport photo
the face the whole way through our conversation.
I think it's a step removed from friends. Yeah.
So, okay. So you should deal with our company
because we're awesome, but we're never going
to be your friend. Yeah. I can get like, you
know, with some things you want to deal with
the confidentiality and you don't want your friends
in your business. So that's sort of a level there
and make sure it's confidential. But it's like,
you know, it's a people's definition of professional
is different. So you're saying that's that's
what I mean by professional is we use does not
instead of doesn't and we don't emoji stuff.
But to me, professional is achieving certain
things. getting the right answers, you know,
boom, boom, boom, taking care of your business,
being discreet, being super good. Like there's
some key things around the actual value. Yeah.
But then to me, I see that if you don't want
to look at, doesn't, and that's going to mean
that you think my job's no good. Like you're
an idiot. Yeah, that's fair. Anyway, so you were
saying about their advertising though. So when
it comes to their marketing advertising, yeah,
it's humor, relatability. They understand it's
not pretty. They understand what they're doing
and what they're providing. I actually heard
a story about someone who was absolutely humiliated
that their boss caught them buying toilet paper
in Woolworths. So there's clearly a stigma. So
good. I was thinking of the delivery guy. Yeah.
And so there's clearly like this stigma that
exists around it. And I guess they address that
and kind of lighten the mood, which makes people
feel more comfortable. So it's an interesting
one from the business model perspective. So there's
a few subscription models that came out at a
similar time. and Dollar Shave Club, super familiar
with, that was just razors for dudes getting
delivered each month, each week. And they had
a super funny video ad. Yeah, put that in the
thing for people to watch. But, you know, that
just went nuts. I think four out of the eight
males in our office at the time signed up. Like
we just saw the video, we're around the office
and we all got our delivery, you know? But, you
know, the core thing is it's an existing market.
toilet paper sales. It's always been distributed
third way through supermarkets. You know, they
have a little bit of TV ads. They've all got
TV ads. It's the little dog and, you know, kids
smiling and all this sort of stuff and whatever.
We're wasting the toilet paper as much as possible.
So you use more and increase the sales. Yeah.
Where your toilet paper people's houses, you
know, it's all stimulating demand. But I'm just
on their website now. And so they've got, you
know, some nice photos of their box with different
nice colored toilet paper around it. It's pretty
pretty. That their clients have actually chosen.
Yeah, it's all pretty colors, you know, big and
bold. And it's saying there's little quotes on
every single different type. Yeah. It's like
a toilet paper that says leave this one for last.
Really happy lady. Leave this one for last. You're
right. That's a special one. Yeah. A lady opening
the box on her front doorstep and she's stoked
like she's checking out the colors. You know,
so it's pretty simple marketing. but it's quite
consistent. And then their fonts, you know, a
nice little fun, it's a nice clean website. You
can subscribe or ship every few months or you
can just buy. And then talking before about how
they communicate. So it's saying not your average
toilet paper and it's talking about where toilet
paper comes from and what's different about them,
but it's in like a conversational way. As I mentioned
before, it's not just very... formal, which I
think that professional undertone like it's,
it's formal, it's informal, but it's professional.
Yep. Um, and things like, wait, are you using,
sorry, wait, are you recycling used toilet paper?
So it says that we've recycled, we sell recycled
toilet paper. So do they recycle used toilet
paper? Yeah, that's the question. So that's the
thing. Maybe you're wondering. This is on the,
just the page to buy. It's clicked on that, right?
So we understand why you might think this, but
the answer is no. We use post -consumer waste
paper, which means recycled office paper, not
used toilet paper. Get your head out of the sewer.
That's good. Yeah. So, and I quite like that
sort of, it's, you can say it's unconventional,
but to me it's not. It's talking to your client
in a way your client can understand. So their
market is mass market. Yep. Yep. Everyone booze.
Literally on their about us page, there's a picture
of one of the founders on the toilet. Yep. Sure.
We love puppies and sunny days and walks on the
beach, but our real love is toilet paper. Why?
You might ask. First of all, it's funny. Lots
of room for toilet jokes, which we love, but
we really, but really we love toilet paper because
for us, it's our way of making a difference.
And I think that's what like is the most important
part here is there. Making something really light
-hearted but really bringing it back to what
they're what they're really trying to achieve
Yeah, they have a counter on the website that
says they've raised over 13 million dollars towards
improving sanitation and they go into Talking
about how toilets have changed more saved more
lives than any other invention. So it's probably
true actually. Yeah so Unconventional ways to
market the point is here. It's a it's a product
that there's not too much R &D or great breakthroughs
to have Everyone uses it very established market
and really it's just looking at it from a completely
different angle And getting it out there and
that's why people are buying it instead of just
grabbing what's easy at the supermarket Yeah,
they're just trading their customers like humans.
Yeah, correct. And I think that's really important
especially when it comes to any sort of I mean,
you could be in construction and someone just
wants to build a home, like treat that person
like a human being, not as if they're some strange
person that needs to be communicated with. Not
my friend. Well, yeah, just not my friend. To
put it simply. But you have to think like they're
emotionally invested. They want that home. So
what does that mean to them? Don't sit there
and be like, we provide the best quality timber.
And we do it this way because that's how we do
it. It's the best way to do it. Yeah. be like,
this is a home that we're going to create for
you, your family. And that's what people want
to buy invested in. Yeah. So I think that's probably
a really important point for everyone to take
away is just really, we, people always say, understand
who your customer is, but I think you need to
understand how to communicate with them and not
be too scared to go outside the mold of what
you see on Facebook. You see those, those ads
on Facebook that are so direct and impersonal
when it could be a business that is, you can
see what they're trying to do by being professional.
Um, but it does really remove that relationship
between you and the, in the buyer. And so you
could take that risk and treat them as though
they're another human being or do yourself a
disservice and remove yourself. It's been aware,
I say, there's no right or wrong way, I guess,
but it's been aware of what you want to. communicate
and doing it that way. So if we want to communicate
that we are a bit disconnected from you, where
are this level, you know, that's fine. But the,
I guess the unconventional way out of this is
that they probably use a lot of traditional ways
to market. But they're not talking about, do
I do Facebook or do I do radio or do I do TV
or, you know, do I go to the local networking
thing? They've gone, okay, well, what do people
want out of life? And they're going, oh, people
would like to give back to the community, but
how do people give back to the community? It's
door knockers, you find your cause, you donate
money out of your pocket, things like that as
a way as a, you know, it's coming out of your
budget. But what if we can just, they can spend
their money on the toilet paper and it's helping
them. Oh, that'd be cool. And then how do we
talk to them like people? And that's the key
to their marketing. So it's, I would say a lot
of their business comes through referral, people
talking about them like us today. Yep. And how
can you do that in your business? Yeah, it's
really interesting. The type and marketing that
they're doing, they're making you, I don't know,
toilet paper is just something you never thought
about. You just. They buy it all the time. Yeah.
They've got even a section in here. What's the
right toilet paper for me? Can we just go through
those questions real quick? Just for fun. Trust
us, we know a thing about toilet paper. I really
want to know what these questions are. Need help
finding the right toilet paper? We've got your
bum covered. Just answer a few easy questions
and we'll match you with your ride or ply. Let's
get rolling. What kind of toilet do you have?
This is less about the personality and more about
the plumbing. Yeah. If you're not sure about
what type of toilet you have, chances are it's
just a regular old toilet. Alternative system
or septic tank or regular? There you go. Let's
go septic tank. Okay. Cool. What's your idea
of comfy? Camping in the great outdoors or a
fluffy bed with room service? Let's pretend to
be pay the account and go camping. Oh dear. What's
your spending philosophy? Basic is best for my
budget. I'm willing to pay for premium. They're
all nice good to all of them. Premium? Yeah.
Okay. Pick your box size. 24 rolls is great or
40 rolls. No, 24 rolls is great for limited storage
space and smaller households. 48 rolls is great
for getting the best value or larger households.
Very big family. 48 rolls it is. Okay. 50 % of
profits donated. Yep. Showing us how much they've
raised. $13 ,378 ,000. Right. So before they're
telling us which toilet paper we should buy,
they're establishing that they're donating all
this money and letting us see that. Good. Yes.
They have 22 ,472 reviews. I thought you were
going to say options for us. No, one option.
100 % recycled toilet paper, biodegradable for
every toilet, soft and scrunchable, and best
bang for your budget. Just add it to the cart
there and we're good to go. 48 rolls. And it
has more sheet deets, recycled materials, Mama
Earth approved, plastic free rolls. Yeah. And
what's the price? $60 for 48 rolls. Just an interesting
theory there. So we just went through all that.
We went through the questions and what do you
like? What don't you like established? Here's
what we're doing that's different than all other
toilet paper companies. You can be part of this
too. Here's all the reviews, people all of it.
Which one do you want to order? Oh, and here's
the price. Which is what's different to the other
toilet paper companies. It's twice the price.
Wow. It's from reading before it's twice the
length. That was one of the questions on the
side. Twice the length. Yeah, correct. Per sheet,
it's the same. But in the supermarket, it is
literally a big price tag and it wishes on special.
Like this toilet paper price, toilet paper price,
price per sheet. It's all price per sheet. It's
anything in the supermarket now, it's price per
100 mils. So they're putting all that stuff in
front of it to establish the value, to sign you
up to a subscription. But it's communicating
that cool story. It's a really simple website,
really engaging. You just kind of want to look
through, there's fun facts everywhere. So to
me that's professional, because it's well done,
it's well thought out. And you know, it's consistent
and clear and definitely does the job. Yeah.
I just think probably moral of the story when
it comes to this business is just... know that
you don't have to do what everyone else is doing.
When it comes to small businesses, you see what
other businesses are doing that are in your field
and they might be doing quite well. They might
have more likes than you or they might have a
more follows and that sort of thing. It doesn't
necessarily mean that that's the best way to
go about it. It just might mean that they've
been in there longer the game, in the game longer.
Just to... Be yourself be a business know who
that is and communicate it and I think some additional
things to think about is Unconventional is just
explaining features or things that you do that
people don't know about There's a lot of good
things that you do and it could be building a
house like you remember you're building a home,
right? So if you're a builder and you yeah, I
remember building a home, but do you tell people
that? Do you like make it something you point
out halfway through? Oh yeah, this is going to
be a living room. We just want to make sure you
really enjoy it. Like, you know, where are you
going to put your TV? Like where's the kids going
to sit? Like if you frame it that way, people
know that that's what you're thinking about.
So they know the values there. Whereas if you
don't do that, but you were just thinking about
it and you don't communicate that to everyone,
then you don't get the value from it. And especially
before the sale, which I think that checkout
process before was really good. They've established
all the value points before you've got to the
end, not just said, oh, you bought this, congratulations.
Oh, and did you know we donate some of this money?
Like they're using that to make sales. So you
can say it's all a nicety and yes, they're doing
something good, but they're doing it to make
money as well. And we had a chat earlier today
about the eggs. So I've been buying a certain
type of eggs for... 12 years. I don't know a
long time, but the Tasmanian devil is save the
devil's it's you know It's a black egg container
save the Tasmanian devils all over it Tasman
devils on it cost Yeah, it costs two bucks more
than the other ones good eggs. Yeah, the eggs
are fine and Says what I can't read the exact
number, but it's like ten cents from everything
Maybe just look it up on your laptop. So I'm
not lying to everyone, but it's not much It's
not a dollar per packet or anything like that.
It's it's ten cents or five cents So it makes
me feel good because I'm buying the Tassie Devil
eggs. I'm saving the animal. But I also think
in the back of my head, knowing what I know about
marketing is that that's not much money that
they're giving to them. And I've put it all over
that their whole brand is Tassie Devil eggs,
you know, that's the way what I call it. So they're
not selling me a quality of egg. 30 cents from
every carton sold will be donated to save the
Tasmanian Devil's wheel. Could we check that?
So it's 30 cents. So 30 cents for every carton
goes and it's great. It's a great cause. But
I'm buying those eggs just because of that, not
because of anything else related to it. And that's
got shelf space. I've bought it for 12 years.
That's pretty cool. But they're using that for
their value. And then there's other eggs that
I've started buying recently instead. because
I watched a doco on like the food generation,
which you know, you see every few years and it
makes you feel bad. But anyway, but I looked
at on the packages, how many hens per hectare.
And so the Tassie Devil ones were 10 ,000 hens
per hectare, which I believe that's right. You
can fact check that since you're there. And for
the same price, I could buy one that has 1200
hens per hectare. That's correct. Which, you
know, I've got roughly a hectare at my house
and 1200 hens in that, like they are living the
life. So, well, for the same price, I'm supporting
a much better environment for where the food
comes from. Now I've changed my value. But those
companies, there's heaps there. Don't market
that whatsoever. There's some more eggs that
have 700 hens per hectare, which doesn't sound
like much less than 1200, but that's living.
That's way better. Yeah. That double the price,
like 14 bucks for 12 eggs. But no one's talking
about the lifestyle of the chickens, which a
lot of people care about. It makes them feel
warm and fuzzy. No one's marketing that. They're
just marketing their eggs with this number on
it. But then that Tassie Devil one, we don't
need 30 cents. Making sales competing with a
much lower cost base because I've got 10 ,000
like that's 10 times the hands Just because of
the promoting that message so I guess the point
is there was two points one by donating You can
be seen as being nice, but you can also be seen
as profiteering So you've a little bit careful
with that and being accountable I'll talk about.
Thank you. I think that's that's one that I've
noticed but then it's also promoting the bits
that you do that everyone in the industry mentions,
but no one really talks about what it means.
We were at a local cafe before the podcast and
I just asked out of interest, what are your thoughts
on eggs? What's your buying decision for eggs?
Is it a price? Is it quality? Is it conditions?
What is it? They got a story about how a local
owner was really upset during COVID because they
had to kill a thousand hens like mortified because
it was before their time, you know, um, but the
demand wasn't there and they didn't have the
feed and all that sort of stuff. So it just wasn't
going to work, but the quality is really good.
They've got an indoor outdoor environment to
be in there. Her son's gone out there. They really
like it and that's why they go. But that egg
brand, I've never seen that communicate it whatsoever
in their advertising, but that would be a really
cool story. And that's the reason the cafe uses
them. Um, but thank you. So thank you is a brand.
What do they sell now? They do personal hygiene
products. So body washers, soaps, just wallpaper
as well. Let's have a look. So personal care,
cleaning and baby products. So this is just my
opinion from my experiences. It's not, I don't
know their business super well, but we watched
a show and it was about the thank you company.
And it was talking about how they want it to
be low cost. So they've got the space in the
supermarkets, prime shelf, middle of the height.
And basically we're gonna make soap, we're gonna
do all these things, we're gonna do it for a
low cost and we're gonna donate back to people.
And a big part of it was that on the bottle,
you could see, you could scan a code and it showed
you how the money that you just spent was getting
used. So that's just awesome. But then... Four
or five years later, and this is not having a
crack at thank you, but every time we've bought
a body wash, you scan the code or there's no
code there and says code not available. So what
is that telling me as a consumer? That it's stopped
or the money's going to them. Yep. Or they don't
want to show it. Probably none of those things
are true, but that's where you've got to be a
little bit careful sometimes with unconventional
ways. You don't want to be giving, you think
I'm going to do this because of all these great
reasons, but you've also got to assess your market
and talk to your clients. And I think it's important
to get feedback and focus groups of why people
do that stuff. What do people actually see when
that happens? So now every time I look at that,
and I'm a bit unique understanding a bit of theory,
right? It says code not available. I'm like,
well, they had that system years ago. Why did
they just stop doing it? And why haven't they
updated their packaging? Yeah, it's in the sense
that you just need to be really accountable to
yourself if you're choosing to go down that road.
Social impact is awesome. I think if you have
the position, the power, the stand that you can
use your business to just make a bit of a positive
impact and your customers are going to get around
that too. Whether that be supporting a local
sports player, or whether that be supporting
in a big organization. In doing that, you do
have to keep yourself accountable and make sure
that you're all following. Transparent. Yeah,
transparent. That's the word I'm looking for.
That's the key. Yep. So make sure that you're
transparent. And I think you can do it really
well. I don't think it's that much of an effort.
No, not at all. And it's great to give back,
like you're creating that value they wouldn't
have had. They wouldn't have got that money if
you hadn't done that. So it is a good win -win.
Yeah, I think it's a great way to go about business.
So yeah, definitely encourage that one. So just
thinking about more general, because we're talking
about one particular case, which is cool. That
was just the case study to discussion today.
But, you know, they're looking for a bit of synergy,
something that's going to help one another. So
everyone uses toilet paper and everyone wants
to give back. Most people do. So they're looking
for something people can get behind and they
haven't just gone, okay, well, that's TV or that's
the standard thing people are doing. They've
gone, well, how can we get to our customers in
a way that they would like to do something that's
not even related to us whatsoever? It's not essential
to their business. It doesn't mean anything.
It's unrelated. And they've turned that into
some great value for, I guess, the world as a
whole. plus also their business. And then for
the day to day lives of their customers, because
they've got like, I'm part of something bigger,
and I'm getting these nice pictures. You know,
there's lots of little bits of happiness there.
Yeah, a lot of businesses would think, oh, well,
we'll just make our products higher quality or
our service just a little bit faster. Yeah. When
you could think outside the box and just go,
well, maybe our customers want something else
or they care about something else. And that's
why it's important to do a customer profile.
help understand what it is that they're actually
interested in. You know, you might be, um, your
customer base might be young families or middle
-aged families. And so you've got to think about
what they're doing at that stage of life and
how can you interact with them through that,
whether you be, uh, a roller door company or
an electrical company or a construction, I'm
just going trades, but as in if you're a construction
company and your primary audience is. young families,
you're not going to be wanting huge open staircases.
The kids are just going to like roll straight
down them. Like you've got to think about the
small things, but then you can also think about
well... they're going to footy games and what
are important for those kids footy games like
and then think about the charities and the organizations
that are around that and think about how that
can relate to your business. So just got to do
a little bit of thinking and just like top of
my head being creative for a second is like,
oh, if you're a building company, you're focusing
on young families. Well, what if you did like
a deal where everyone gets this free playground?
Yeah, you can make some really cool ones like
you make one in your own backyard and then put
a little video up in there and be like, wow,
that's sick, you know. It's going on their mortgage.
It's probably the price difference getting lower.
The fact is you're focusing on families. They
can see how you're doing that to a house. It's
not about the playground. It's just that they
see you've thought about a family before they
came to you, which has some perceived value.
And I think that's going back to the toilet paper,
that nice packaging that looks pretty. That's
not worth anything at all. It doesn't make your
bum feel better when you're wiping it but it
is perceived value that people were happy to
pay for because at that moment that little add
-on they're like oh that's nice. Yeah I wondered
how they got to that stage and the way I think
maybe the thought process might have been they
think about the people that sit there and read
things like the people traditionally read the
newspaper or news magazines which then turned
into the phones and then like everyone always
laughed about the fact that if they didn't have
their phone on the toilet, what are they going
to read? And one of my friends was like, I read
every single toilet paper wrapping. And I was
like, wow, you must have had a fun time. Reader's
Digest must have made a lot of money about being
the toilet paper reading, you know, back in the
day. But yeah, like you see, it could also be
that that's the time the customers see their
product. So let's think about the buying decision.
They're signing up to a subscription, so they've
got the process, they've got the credibility.
I've got the trust, I've got all the nice stuff.
But then after that, you're getting a monthly
bill and some toilet paper rocks up. So if it's
some boring packaging, it's just toilet paper.
You've forgotten about the donations. You've
forgotten everything. You get a bill and you
get toilet paper. So you've lost that whole fun
of the brand. So having that cool little bit
on the outside, it's not essential to anything,
but I was like, oh yeah, that's right. It's this
company and they do this. Yeah, no, I think it's
awesome. So it just adds to the whole package.
Yep. Yeah, so I think the key takeaway is here
is just be a bit creative. think outside the
box. Yeah, there's a lot of opportunities that.
Your audience will appreciate that you might
think just to be really simple, but it's definitely
worth at least giving it a shot. Yeah, it just
goes back to every time we talk about market,
but knowing who your customer is, knowing what
you want to communicate, but people are people.
whether they have a billion dollars or they have
10, they're still a person. So what to those
people? Yeah, treat them like one and talk to
them like one and what can you do to make their
life better? Let's think outside the box. Yeah,
absolutely. Good stuff. Thank you very much for
sitting and listening in or doing whatever you're
doing while you're listening. We'll talk to you
on the next podcast. Bye everyone. Bye bye.