Welcome to the Business Abundance Podcast, providing
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www .businessabundance .online. Hello and welcome
to the Business Abundance Podcast. Hello. I'm
Zee and today I'm here with Rowan. Hi. We're
missing Ian today, but I'm sure he'll be back
in future podcasts. Today, we're going to be
chatting about people pleasing specifically in
the business workplace. And there's a few reasons
why this is important. Mostly because of the
impact people pleasing can have on your relationships,
whether that be personal or in business, your
productivity in business. Basically, it can impact
anything. I mean, if you want to maintain good
relationships or you want to ensure that everything's
really happy and you don't like conflict, people
pleasing could be quite a bad thing. If you want
to make sure that you're like if you're if you're
a small business owner that just wants to help
people. It's likely that you're doing yourself
a disservice by whether that be in a financial
aspect by dealing with people who can't pay you
on time and so you just cover the cost for them.
Taking on the world's problems. Yeah, whether
you've become a counselor for your employees
because they can't deal with conflict resolution.
You're doing more work than you're meant to because
your employees won't pick up the slack. There's
so many reasons. why it's not helpful for you.
Yeah. It's not something you think about ever.
No one goes, do you think about if you're a people
pleaser or not? Yeah. You just kind of do the
stuff. So, uh, I mean, if we can define it, um,
it's just basically meeting the expectations
of other people at the expense of your own needs.
So it sounds way worse than, oh, a people pleaser.
That sounds nice. Just self -sabotage. Um, but
yeah, your self -worth is based on making other
people happy. So that's, uh, kind of where that
stems from. Um, and it's not good for your business
because in the end, you're going to lead to burnout
or financial stress or, um, brewing conflict
among your employees. There's so many reasons
that I could think of and we could go for days,
but basically want to talk about. identifying
those issues, figuring out what to do if you
are in that position. And yeah, like where you
can be if you do fix those. It's not necessarily
a bad thing to say no is kind of the moral of
this. It could be good for everyone. It could
be. Yes. It's good to take accountability and
set boundaries. I mean, I think that's just kind
of like the end. We can finish up there. Very
good. Just say no. No. Now I think we start off
with the consequences. I think just because they
seem to be straightforward. I've got one. Okay.
Let's go. Clients unhappy after you've done heaps
and heaps and heaps of things for them You've
done a great job and you've you've gone out of
the way to make it happen And then they're still
upset at the end and then you hate the world.
Yeah consequence consequence that is and Partly
you ought to blame for that. Yeah 100 % Yeah,
I think a lot of people have been in that position
Yes. So that's resentment, your relationships
becoming unbalanced and unsatisfying. You just
feel like you're carrying the load where they're
not doing much. It's like when you're in school
and you do those group projects and they all
make you do the most of the essay writing and
you're just sitting there and everyone takes
an A and you're just like, aw. That's really
interesting. I never thought about work like
school projects, but. That's pretty much would
sum up a lot of places where one person's carrying
everyone and everyone gets an A. Yeah. Painful.
People -pleasing. No fun. No, don't do it. Unless
you're one of the other people, I guess. Well,
that's not people -pleasing. Yeah, you're not
going to achieve anything on your own. It is
an interesting point though, and I think I am
jumping ahead, but while we're on it... We're
in discussion. Yeah, but if you're... If you're
a people pleaser, you see that the group's not
carrying their load and the deadline is two days
away. And you've realised that if you don't do
it, no one else will. How do you not be a people
pleaser in that situation? At that point, you're
probably limited. It would have to be changing
it well before that point. Knowing that you probably
going to put yourself in that situation because
you're sort of like, Oh yeah, it'll be fine.
We'll do this. And then suddenly it's not fine.
Yeah. And everyone knew except you. And they're
like, they were just calling it Z will sort it.
So you won't sort it, but she will. Yeah. Well,
we're talking about consequences. An example,
some other consequences. You have people in your
business that, you know, often take leave because
of whatever. Stress. And you keep, yeah, no,
it's fine. It's fine. You'd be supportive, be
supportive. And then you're frustrated because
nothing gets done or they're not available or
whatever. Or I suppose like a client too, if
they leave you, I'll put them through their apprenticeship,
blah, blah, blah. We did this for them. We did
this for them. And then they're left. And I've
heard that from so many clients and it's so frustrating.
But I think it comes from that people pleasing.
They're trying to make everyone happy. Yeah,
it really ends up in resentment and the theme
here is resentment. Yeah, you just end up not
liking this self loathing. Yeah resentment There's
also loss of identity because you're just kind
of caught up in there in the fact that you're
Doing all this work and you don't know if you're
doing it for yourself or for someone else Yeah,
that's a that's a shocker that one I guess like
your success or your failures are based on what
other people's decisions ultimately are not your
own. Yep Yeah. So you just then become a workhorse,
not really thinking for yourself. So yeah, that's
a big one. That's a deep rooted one. That's not
a good one. What else have we got? Um, I've already
talked about burnout, but I mean, touching on
that just a little bit more if you don't. if
you just keep going and going and picking up
the slack for each other, for other people and
for your employees, for example, and you're pulling
the really late nights because work just needs
to be done, which I'm sure. Or you're just doing
all the work all the time. You don't have to
be doing late nights, but if you're just doing
the day and everyone else is coasting. I mean,
why, why are you even employing people in that
situation? True. So you're just doing all the
work, picking up the slack. I can think of a
thousand reasons why that is an issue or where
that issue stems from, whether that be poor processes
or just bad employee management, but... Or people
pleasing. Yeah, or people pleasing. But it's
all pretty relevant. And then, yeah, you're pulling
the late nights and getting only a couple of
hours sleep and then waking up, doing it all
over again. So what's the thing, is it having
a line where that's not my problem, it's all
your problem, sort it, like none of my business,
leave me alone, I'm not going to help you? No,
I think you need to set clear boundaries for
yourself. I think that's probably the first one.
Understanding what your role is. I mean, if you're
a small business owner and you've got employees,
you've employed them to do something. You've
got an admin team to do the admin work. You shouldn't
be doing the admin work. That's not your role.
If you've got a general manager, leave them to
run the business. If you're there for growing
the business, that's your role. If you're taking
sales calls, pass that onto the sales team. It's
setting boundaries and just defining what you're
actually there to do. Yep. So let's say with
the admin team then, if we're taking over their
roles, like how are we people pleasing? Uh, because
they could be talking about how they've also
got marketing and everything else that they're
doing. I'm too busy. I'm too busy. Yeah. I've
got the social media posts to do. I've got that
lunch to make. I've got this to do. I've got
these people to follow up. I've got invoices,
blah, blah, blah. And you're just like, well,
it does really need to get done. So that's what
you should say. I'm the one that is going to
do it. And so that's how it becomes people pleasing.
Yeah. So it's not just you think like I'm a nice
person. So I'm helping people out. It's also
just not necessarily been willing to stand up
or you can't be bothered having the discussion.
So I'm just going to do what's easier. And I
think we're like sitting here and there's this
negative tone being like, you silly sucker, like
why are you the people pleaser? But they're invested.
Like as a small business owner, you need to get
that done. You feel that investment. Oh, I wasn't
calling anyone a silly sucker. No, but it seems
like that's like the negative undertone, I guess,
is just like... Or we're giving examples. Like,
you know, what's the... There's nothing positive
coming out of it. But it's just like... You're
invested, you need to see this get done. Um,
and so you, you do seriously feel that pinch
to get it sorted. And if they don't do it, then
you're like, well, no one else is, I've got to
sort it out. And I don't sympathize with them
in that sense because I would do that myself
too. Yeah. We want a good result, don't you?
Yeah. And it's your business, your money, your
risk that you've, you've put in there. Um, but
you've employed people for a reason. So I guess
your role would be more making sure that they're
accountable. For their roles. So I guess as a
manager, we're not trying to, I think there's
a book with the one minute manager that I can't
remember these exact details. And there's about
30 different versions. And also like the one
minute manager for high performance teams and
high forming teams and the new one minute manager,
which I bought someone the other day. And I was
like, well, this is different to what I remember
it being. But they talked about that your job
as a manager is to be available for everyone
when they need it and make sure that you're getting
things out of their way. Rather than if you're
busy doing everything, you have no time for managing.
So if you're a good manager, you should be available
and the discussion should be, well, how can we
solve these problems that you've got? Not let
me do that with you or for you to help. Don't
let me do it for you. Yeah. So I think that's
an interesting thought. If you think about that,
those scenarios from that perspective. then it's
not going, oh, I help because I'm a good person,
or I help because I can't be bothered having
the argument. But understanding your role as
a manager, in this case, is to help them do their
job. So that's how you can help and be nice is,
is okay, well, how can we solve these problems
that you're having? You know, you go to social
media posts, well, okay, well, why, why has that
become a scheduling issue? What's happened? Oh,
I had to do this, this, this. Okay, well, let's
look at... What are you doing overall? Do you
want to come back to Eve? Like how we can solve
this problem rather than let's get it done. Which
might be just a tiny bit more work, but over
the long term, it's not going to fall back on
your plate because they're taking responsibility.
So your work is then helping them solve that
problem, which takes a little bit longer than
just writing the social media posts, maybe. But
it's worth it over the long term. It means that
you're not responsible for that. And instead
of one post you're writing 10 or you solve the
problem and you never write one. Yeah. And I
suppose it takes a little bit of that. Oh, I
need to have the conversation even though I might
not want to do it because I don't know, you might
be afraid of the answer or you're busy or whatever,
but you've got to look at it. Okay. Well, we've
got to, I've got to do the job. I've got to enable
them to do their job rather than enabling them
to not do the job and then getting resentful
about it. Yeah. Yes. Which is Embrace constructive
conflict. Yes. Constructive. That's a good term.
Yep. So, uh, whether that be with employee management
or dealing with processes, just be able to have
those hard conversations about why it's not working
and... Yeah. And they don't have to be hard,
I guess. If you, if you're used to having them
and everyone's, you know, aware and everyone's
working in each other's best interests, then
it's not a, it's not a battle. No. But if you're
not used to it, then time to start. Yeah, but
I think too, when people are not doing their
roles or you're doing their roles for them, they're
not happy either. They feel like they're letting
it run down and then it's just constant, oh,
when am I going to get in trouble for this? Yeah.
The dreads, you know, that dreading something.
So that doesn't help them be productive either.
But I think this is like, it goes back to confidence
to some degree. assertiveness, um, some of its
theory, like the management thing, understanding
what your role is rather than thinking I need
to be a good person or I don't have time, but
knowing what's appropriate to stand up, not stand
up for yourself. It's not a battle, but to say,
that's not my problem. That's your problem. Um,
because I think for a lot of people, that's really
hard. It's like, Oh, we want to help. What are
we good people? But that's not my problem. Like
you've, you've caused that problem. Yep. Like
you could have found something different. You
can do something different right now. You're
just choosing not to. So now I have to sort it.
That's not fair to me. It can sound really harsh,
but I think it's really important, especially
if you like doing things with people, you've
got to go, well, if I do something for them,
I don't expect something back. That's because
then you're not upset that nothing happens in
return. But in the same regards that I don't
actually have to solve this problem. I'm not
going to feel bad about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's
really bad for you, but. You can change that.
You don't need me to do it. You just can't be
bothered. Yeah. Or you don't want to change.
So leave me out of it. Like that's fully appropriate.
Yeah. My head just went to like the very extreme
point of that, where it's just like, if I play
it, like if I have employees, but I do it myself,
why pay them? Like, why have them? Oh, a hundred
percent. Yeah. So like... People listen to that
and they're like, yeah, I've had that thought
yesterday. Yeah, like why are they even there
if you're doing the whole job? Yeah, correct.
So, yeah, I mean, put in extremes, just think
about that. Yeah. So why am I paying them? Because
I can do it myself. Well, sometimes there'll
be reasons as far as, yeah, I'm looking to look
for the future and we're trying to get them there,
but you've got to actually make the steps to
do that. But then if you continually don't do
that, it is fine to say, well, yeah, it's not
working out. I can't be bothered doing that anymore.
I'll just do it myself and happy days. It is
what it is, but you have more money for what
it is. rather than being something that it's
not and having no money because of it. You won't
have employee problems. You'll just be burnt
out. Well, you know, keep it a size that you
can manage. Yeah. Yeah. You don't need employees
to be successful. You can be successful by yourself.
It's just, you know, what you're aiming for,
I guess. Yep. Yeah. So then we can talk about
developing assertiveness. Yeah. Same sort of
theme, I guess, in the sense that you're setting
clear boundaries and. having that constructive
conflict, you need to say no, which you said
before, you need to be able to show that that's
not something that you're willing to do. Well,
you need to, yeah. Willing, need, whatever. Yeah.
Well, I guess what is assertiveness? Different
people have different, you know, because we're
either being nice to people or being harsh. That's
how most people view things. Yeah. I see it sort
of hand in hand with boundaries. Like this is
a boundary. I will not cross it. And so you've
got to be assertive with those boundaries, which
is using the word in a definition. Don't love
that. Um, you're setting, you're strong in your
opinion towards something or solid. In your opinion?
Solid opinion. I don't know, if you're strong
in your opinion, you can be like overwhelming,
which isn't really a bit of service like being
pushy. But I think it's being strong, confident,
like understanding that, yeah, that is appropriate.
You are allowed to say something. You don't get
to talk over people, but you're allowed to say
your opinion and they should listen to it. And
or saying, no, I don't want to do it. Like you
said, that's it. That's over my boundary without
them coming back. Oh, but it's not because of
all these things. And you're going, oh, I suppose
I see a point, you know, like, no, well. Yes,
I agree with all those things you said, but I
still don't want to do it. So that's fine. That's
okay. You're allowed to do that. Prioritising
tasks. I always love this one. I do it almost
every day and it's just basically figuring out
what you need to do. But how does that relate
to people pleasing? Well, if people are putting
more on your list and it's not a high priority,
if they're like, oh, I need to do this. Oh, what
would be a task? Yeah. Well, people putting things
on your list, I guess, if you're the boss, like
that's your first of all, you need to stop that.
Yeah. Yeah. Like it's you can choose to do it,
but you need to be aware that that's what you're
doing. Yeah. Yep. And if you're doing a budget
as opposed to proofreading a report someone's
written for you, which is, which holds more priority.
And if you're dropping that budget in order to
proofread that report, then your priorities aren't
right. And your jobs are just going to get pushed
down and down and down, even though they are
vital to the business's success. Yeah. So let's
talk about random scenario. I was just thinking
about when you're talking, let's say you've got
an employee that's fantastic and you know, whatever,
and they're like, oh, I want this and this and
this and this, or, you know, I'm going to leave.
So as the business owner, people pleasing, it's
like... You know, what can we do? Can we do all
these things that's going to suck or whatever?
Where's the line of assertiveness then? Cause
that's a pretty common problem for most businesses
is like retaining staff or, you know, there's
always, Oh, I'd like to go on holidays. I'd like
to do this. Or can we do this or blah, blah,
blah. It's like, how do you balance that? Like
it's pretty uncertain. I think. Yeah. Uh, my
head just jumped straight back to this book that
I've read over the weekend. value -based fees
by Alan Weiss. Nothing to do with people, but
good. Not at all. But the concept he talks about
is that there's a quote, the effort I put in
and the cost that I charge is compensation for
the value I bring to you and you're going to
receive that same amount basically. What you
receive I give to you, so I receive the same
in return. Or part of, yeah. Yeah. And I kind
of think of that in the business sense, like,
okay, if you're going to stay, what is in it
for me? Can we come to an agreement that works
for both of us? Yes. So instead of just going
on, we'll kick you out the door. Why is it not?
Or here's everything you want. And now I'm upset
because, you know. How about an alternative where
we talk about different ways that will meet your
needs? What is it that you actually need from
another job that we're not providing you? And
how can we reach that? Or do we want to provide
you? Yeah. Yeah, spot on. I think it's like having
that the kind of an assertive angle. It's like,
OK, well, you'd like all these things. That's
nice. This is what we'd like. what's the negotiation
from here. But I guess you don't have to give
in because I think from an employee point of
view and from a people pleasing point of view,
like there's always more people, there's always
more opportunity. Like everyone's different,
I get that. So everyone's unique and great. But
the world will go on and you'll have another
scenario where it'll be mutually beneficial with
someone else. So if you ever feel like, oh, I
have to give into all these things just to make
peace, like you probably don't. Like you'll be
uncomfortable afterwards either way. But if it's
past your limit or past your boundary and you
give in, you're going to feel upset the whole
time and that's not going to change. Whereas
if you go the other way, you're going to be upset
for a short period of time and then it will change.
But spot on what you said too, like the assertive
way is to go, okay, well, yes, you'd like all
these things. This is what we would like. How
can we? make those work, rather than just saying,
oh gee, if you left, I'll be in so much trouble.
So I'll give you everything I want. You want,
you know, but there's not a long -term solution
because that's going to happen again the next
month and the next month. And at what point is
the business getting looked after? Yeah. Why
are you so reliant on them staying? Yeah, correct.
Which is a little bit different to the day -to
-day example, but yeah, definitely a common one,
I think. It is definitely a common one. Yeah.
Having that, it goes back to confidence though,
doesn't it? Sounds like assertive. Yeah, it's
going okay. Well, I'm worth more than that. You
know, we'll be right there to be fine Yeah, we
we can solve it. Yeah protecting your interests.
Yeah, but the world always goes on Yes. Yes.
There's always more employees to yeah Ways to
do your business. Yeah. Yeah another another
kind of example, I guess that I could think of
is if Had a marketing client and they wanted
a marketing strategy. I promised within three
months and I knew that everyone around me or
working for me is over committed, but I'm like,
yep, we'll get it done within three months because
they're a high value client. I've just stressed
out all my employees. I am the problem in that
situation. I've just not really considered. Hmm.
Well, you got to solve it then you took it on.
um, stress yourself out or the employees, but
it's no different having a machine. If you've
got a machine that can make a hundred widgets
per hour and you decide to give a, say a client,
we can make you 200 widgets an hour. You don't
give another machine like, yeah. Yeah. It's giving
into, I guess, people -pleasing. That's from
a client perspective. We're agreeing to something
we, we can't quite deliver just because we want
to keep the pace or we want to get the job. And
then we create a lot of issues for ourselves.
That's why it's the theory, whether we call it
people -pleasing or not, is being aware of that
your actions. Cause you future issues that have
consequences that you have basically fully enabled.
Yeah. So I guess in time, in trying to reduce
the impact, like if you think, if you've been
listening to this podcast, for example, and you're
like, yeah, I'm definitely a people, please.
I've done that a hundred times, which I'm sure
almost everyone has, uh, maybe the first thing
you would want to do is understand what your
boundaries are. What, like, what can you actually
provide? Yeah. That might be. It's like you mentioned
at the start, like what your role is, what you
do do and what you don't do. Yeah. And how much
of that can you actually do? So for example,
with the actual client work, you know, you have
a hundred, a hundred employees don't promise
anything over that. Understand what your constraints
are. What are you promising with that? But no,
I think maybe reword that a little bit. But internally,
what's your role? What's your people's roles?
And then. been able to stick to, that's yours,
that's mine. And it's not necessarily blame the
people, blame the system. But then from a client
perspective is having the right engagements.
So that's not taking on a project you can't deliver
or that's having terms and conditions that not
only guarantee the client a good result, but
also guarantee your business a good result. So
it's not just like, oh, we need your work. We're
desperate, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know,
no one's going out saying that. They're like,
I really want this job. I really want this job
to do all these things to get it. And then then
you get screwed over by something. They're not
really screwing you over because they didn't,
they never agreed to it. They didn't expect it.
It was all stuff in your head you expected from
this job. It was going to be great. But just
making sure that you have a good clear expectations,
not just for yourself, but other people you deal
with. And then having the assertiveness too.
Stand up for your side Yeah, the thing that's
in my head is just like get creative like Don't
think that it's all on you. You have resources
use them. Yeah Yeah, especially when it comes
to You've got employees who you pay How can they
help you? Yeah, if you're pleasing them all the
time, they're not you're not letting them help
you Yeah, let them help you. Hmm. Yeah, so I
think it's the thing you're welcome to do it
just understand in hindsight. The consequences.
Yeah, like it's fine. It's a fine thing to do,
but it's not fine when you don't realize you're
doing it and you get upset about it and you don't
know how to change it. Yeah. But it's fine to
go, yes, I've done this and I did this to help
them and it didn't work out or they're annoyed
or whatever and now I'm annoyed. But I know that
was the outcome. It could have happened at the
start. So it's don't worry about it. I just want
to do that in the future. Yeah. And you mentioned
it just a little bit before when you talk about
asking them, how can they solve the problem?
Like if you're a manager and you're asking that
question of them, showing your leadership by
challenging them to do better or solve the problem
for you, which then helps them in turn grow.
And it's also destroy a line as far as you're
trying to give me a problem. This is one of the
one minute manager things. Good little book.
If you get the oldest one, it's just so basic,
so simple. It's big text. It's got like a hundred
pages. It's a little book. It's not an hour,
but it's good. But it's like if someone comes
to you with a problem, you always make them leave
with the problem. So like talks about like the
manager's desk, so they come into your office
and they're like, here's a problem and they leave
your problem. And the manager's like, yeah, leave
that with me and I'll sort it for you. Then you
keep getting all this stuff. That's a lot of
problems. So then what's the easiest thing for
people to do is just to go give it to you. And
you think like, if you're working in a shop,
I'll get the manager to solve that one for you.
You know, that's. Because the manager will sort
it, but no, the manager should be like, you can
do that. Here's the policy, you know, leave me
out of this. But the easiest thing is they take
it off them. And I think in that book, if my
memory serves me correctly, it was like, if someone
comes to you with a problem, you not only leave
them with it. So what would you do? Do you think
that's a good idea? What's your plan? Oh, that
sounds great. Go do that. You give them one of
yours as well. So you're actually teaching them
the way they come to you with a problem. Yes,
you'll help them. but they can solve themselves
most of the time, but they're leaving with one
of yours. So then it's highly likely before they
come and see you that they're going to make a
pretty good effort to solve the problem themselves.
And like they don't, no one's ever realised that,
oh yeah, you've come to me and I've given you
one. But it's just a, it's completely flipping
the whole, they're leaving problems with you
and you get annoyed and then too busy to, they
come in. and they take their problem with them.
Plus they take one of yours. Like, yeah, so flipping
the script. Yep, that's a different way to do
it. Yeah, I. I think people pleasing is easy
to do, but I think it is actually quite an easy.
Uh, easy thing to not do. Yeah. Easy problem
to solve. I think this was a good discussion.
Just it's a very simple theory, but people don't
generally think about it. No. And we discussed
a few different ways that aren't necessarily
people pleasing, but it's the exact same concept.
So, yeah, I think it just takes just like five
minutes of your day and think about, I mean,
for a week, just think about the ways that you
have people. done some people pleasing and write
them down and think about how you could do that
better for the next week. And it's just going
to take just a little bit of thinking. You get
so like caught up. And I know I have, is you
get so caught up in just getting the work done
that you don't stop and think and go, what am
I actually doing? Um, and yeah, all it takes
is five minutes to just think outside the box.
Um, there's a lot of things, um, people say like
writing journals, a great idea, not saying ever
should write a journal, but. I've started, it
helps. You've got the flight sorties, you know,
pilots go out and they have a briefing before,
which might take an hour, an hour and a half.
And then they do the actual flight and then they
come back and they do a debriefing, which might
take an hour, two hours. So like, why are they
having... four hours worth of briefings and debriefings
when they're only flying, which everyone's just
going flying is their job. But it's that whole
same thing as writing a journal at the end of
the day, a bit of reflection, a bit of what happened,
what was annoying, you know? But I think it's
the main thing people pleasing is just when you're
frustrated about something, look back and don't
just blame, oh, this person did this to me. It's
no fun. It's not fair to go, well, what actions
am I taking that I could do differently? And
yeah, exactly what you said. What could I do
differently in the future? Yep. Couldn't agree
more. Cool. Well, Tim, I hope that is helpful.
We'll leave this with you and some notes in the
podcast notes at the bottom. Episode notes. That's
the word. Very good. All right. Have a good rest
of your week. Bye. Bye.