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This week on the DonoBox podcast, we talk about narcissism, how to disarm narcissists and the

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narcissists we've dealt with in our lives. And we might have a guest feature from Chris's upstairs

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neighbors playing UFC, body slamming each other and doing MMA. Just like last week, we've heard

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them a little bit, but we might hear them again all on this week of the DonoBox podcast. Let's roll

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the intro. Hi, I'm Micah. And I'm Chris. And we've been friends for over 20 years. Surprisingly,

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we haven't killed each other yet. Years ago, we started our own variety show and it's now that

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we're adults, we decided to give it another try. And you know what it says like in the movie,

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life is like a box of donuts. You never know which one's going to be the next one.

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Wait a second. It's chocolates. Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're

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going to get. Oh, right. Okay. Well, let's start the show. This is the DonoBox podcast. Well,

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buddy, it's another week, another great episode, man. I'm so excited. We are officially season four

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episode 10. Man, we've hit double digits in this season. That's wild to me. It's crazy that we're

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three years in 10 episodes out of three years. That's crazy. We really appreciate all of our

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listeners out there are DonoBox OGs and that group is growing ever steadily. Man, I mean,

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our YouTube is popping off a little bit here. We're starting to gain some subscribers on that end.

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And the numbers on the audio end are fantastic. So we can't thank you guys enough from all over

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the country, all over the world. We never thought that it would get to this point. And we're just

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getting started, man. So we're really, really grateful. But man, as you alluded to it in the

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beginning of this episode, we have a great, great episode for you. A lot of life experiences that

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we're going to share with you and really just some hopefully some advice for some of you guys if

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you're going through some of those situations. But man, you want to talk more about what we're

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going to talk about today? Yeah. So we have talked a little bit about this and other episodes. And

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so we were talking about this this week and we talked about this on the, on a long drive that

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we just took, but we're talking about narcissism, kind of some narcissists that we have dealt with

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in our lives disarming narcissism. Because when you talk about narcissism, I feel like that's,

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that term is a lot of times overused. And let's, let's be honest, everyone to some degree is

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narcissistic. Okay. So everyone is self-centric because I heard this illustration when you look

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at a photo that you're in, you automatically look for who first yourself, right? And so I think

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everybody to some degree has some narcissism. Now the question I want to start with before we get

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into like the experiences and all that stuff, do you think that there are spectrums of narcissism?

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And do you think that narcissism, if like, if you're a narcissist, do you think that that can be

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helped and overcome? You know, I want to answer that question and say, I think there is, I'm still

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kind of in the discovery stage because if we're being honest, it's just been a few years since

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I've realized that some of these people in my life were narcissism or narcissists, I'm sorry,

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and have narcissism. What that term truly means because again, like you said, it is a term that

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is very overused and people go, oh, you're a narcissist. And it also can be used to gaslight

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people and say, oh, you're being narcissistic and you have narcissistic tendencies. Again,

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Chris says, yeah, you do. But when we're talking about full blown narcissism, we're talking about

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people who want to be in absolute control of every bit of your life. And we're talking about people

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who are, you know, if they were diagnosed by a medical professional, yes, narcissistic

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tendencies, do I believe there's a spectrum that I don't know. And it's just because we're, personally,

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I'm still in that discovery process of understanding just a few years in of, okay, these people are

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narcissists. So to me, at this point, and maybe ask me in a few years and it might be different,

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but at this point, I feel like, yes, some people have narcissistic tendencies, but if you are a

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narcissist, it is like a zero to 100 experience. It's either you are not a narcissist or you are

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a narcissist. So when you talk about a spectrum, I don't necessarily think so. I think that full

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blown narcissism is on its own, it's on its own plane. It's way over here personally. That's what

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I think. How about yourself? If you, if you think people do have narcissistic tendencies and they

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are self aware, right? Like you be like, Oh, wow, like I do notice that when I talk, I do tend to

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turn the conversation about me and you become aware. Do you think that can be helped? Do you

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think people can work on that? Now we're going to delve into full blown narcissism here and a

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little bit, but like, do you think that that can be helped and worked on and all that?

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Absolutely. And reason being is because, so I believe, and you've known me for years. So as we

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alluded to in the intro here, we've been friends for over 20 years. You've seen that even I had

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narcissistic tendencies, but a lot of that had to do is because I was in close contact with a

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narcissist and I believe that narcissism really spreads to other people. Whenever it's there

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within a person and they are a full blown narcissist, it is hard not to have that pot overflow

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per se, right? And so it overflows to everybody else. And so everybody else starts having these

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narcissistic tendencies because when you're in a narcissistic situation, the typical thing that

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tends to happen, or at least in my experience, it's happened is you look up to that narcissistic

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person and you think that all their ideals and values are absolutely right. And you think that

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that, Hey, I need to follow. Yep. Right. That is, that is the gospel truth. I need to follow what

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this person is saying because they're absolutely right. And so you start having these narcissistic

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tendencies as well. And like Chris said, we'll get into more of those things and kind of those

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triggers and some of the things that I followed along with. And I know Chris probably followed

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along with based on the things that these people have said, I do think that it's hard because

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just because you have narcissistic tendencies, that just means that maybe you're in touch with

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somebody who is a narcissist and you have bought into their ideals for the time being.

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Yeah. And it's really hard to recognize a full blown narcissist at first, if you have not been

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around a lot of them and Mike and I have been around a lot of them. So I'm not saying I can

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identify them like that, but like when you're in that and we're going to, I'm going to segue into

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your experience, right? So kind of setting up some backstory and Mike and I were both raised to be

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very, at least I was raised to be a very trusting person. What people tell you is the truth. Absolutely.

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And you believe that. So when someone would tell me something, and even to this day, I still find

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myself, if someone tells me something, I give them benefit out and I believe that. So, Micah,

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do you want to go ahead? I'm going to let you kick us off. Whatever you want to share about

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growing up with that, dealing with that, whatever you want to share.

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Yeah, absolutely. So my father was a narcissist. We'll just go ahead and start there. He was a full

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blown narcissist. And the things that he would say, and you know, I'm going to go ahead and start

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off in these points because these are moments that you are sitting here and for people like myself

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who are very trusting Chris alluded to, we were raised to be very trusting. I was also raised

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to be very trusting. And also, I think part of that had to do with also my grandparents,

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they lived in a different time. People trusted people way differently in my grandparents'

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generations than they did now. I mean, you can't really, the feeling now is you can't trust a whole

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lot of people. You can't even answer the phone. I was talking to some elderly people today,

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and they were just so frustrated like you can't even answer the phone for random phone numbers

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anymore and things like that used to be, and that is why they fall for so many scams and things is

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because there was so much more of a trusting generation. It was so much more of a trusting

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time. Whoever is calling you and says, Hey, this is who I am. And this is what is their word was

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their word and they were going to keep their word. And we live in a time where that is vastly

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different. That's one thing, but we were raised in a very old school environment. And so I feel

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that that old school environment again was okay, you can trust people at their word. So what they

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are saying is the truth and what they're saying is what they mean. And that is what it is. Now,

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on the contrary, growing up with a father who was a narcissist, he gave me a roadmap of everything

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that he was thinking in his mind and things like that. One of the biggest things that he taught me

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that really sticks to my mind of and I don't live this way and I see absolutely the opposite end of

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this way, but he would tell me all the time, listen, Micah, it is your world and everybody

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else is privileged to be around you. And that is how you have to think. And that is absolutely

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wrong. The further that I went into life, the understanding was right. The opposite of I am

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really, really blessed to be around the people that I am around and God has blessed me to be

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around the people who I'm supposed to be around. And he's blessed to have shown me the people that

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I'm not supposed to be around. And so the thought of, okay, everybody's blessed to be around you

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and you're the greatest things in sliced bread. Chris will tell you that is how I was raised.

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And for a long time, I had a very big complex of wanting to be the center of attention and to be

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very known because listen, I'm the pride and joy. I'm and it didn't also help. I think that I was

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also the only child. So I'm the only one being told this, right? And it also didn't help that you were

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a miracle child, right? Like it was that is true. I think that did add to it. You're the only child

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being a miracle. My parents are supposed to have children, right? They were not supposed to have

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children. And so automatically it's you're the miracle child. You're the best thing since sliced

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bread. And we so my father was in the military for a while, and we ended up moving to Georgia.

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And that's where I ended up meeting Chris. And around the age of eight, you know, I was very,

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very interested in aviation. And again, I'm going to plug my own channel, Trash Can Travel. So if

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you want to go over there, I'm still very interested in aviation. And as I alluded to in a video over

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on Trash Can Travel, I've been interested in it since I was five years old. I've been very interested

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in the world of aviation. And of course, my father knew that. And so he got me into flight lessons.

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And so this is where I'm going to start with narcissism, right? Because you sit here and go,

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well, that's a really good dad. That's a great dad who's going to support your hobbies and things

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like that. But it was about the intention of it. The intention that he had was not because that is

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Micah's interest. That is what he wants to do when he grows up. It was a bragging point of, hey,

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my kid at age eight knows how to fly a plane. Does your kid at age eight know how to fly a plane?

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No, they don't. And so it was a sticking point of, listen, I'm better than you. I have the control

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over you. And so those are the things that narcissists tend to do. I will add a story into

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that just to kind of illustrate the point that you're making. Maybe I've shared this before. This

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is probably, we're probably about the same time. I remember hanging out with you and you know which

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story I'm going to tell, but hanging out in your room. And I remember your maternal unit,

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she comes in and is like making this big deal. And she was like, oh my gosh, Micah, she was like,

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you have been invited to go join the Augusta Players Junior to be part of their program.

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She was like, that's an honor. So many kids would love to do this. And I remember being like,

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I got the same invitation in the mail. I think everybody like in the air, I got them and broke,

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she was mad when I said, she was like, well, she was like, wait, she was like, wait a disappoint

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things or whatever. Like it was almost like, and she, and she told everyone, I remember she would

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tell it. She was like, yeah, well, Micah was a baby. He looked just like the Gerber baby. And like,

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absolutely. Those points where it's like, I'm better than you. And like, I don't know. So

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continue. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Absolutely. No, no, no, great, great points.

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And so a lot of the things that happened were a lot along those lines of, oh my gosh, look how

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great my child is. So fast forward just a few years, I get into the fourth grade. And, you know,

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really, it wasn't my fault. It was made out to be my fault. But I moved from Germany, which was

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Department of Defense Education. And if anybody knows, unfortunately, Department of Defense and

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the government's form of education for military kids is behind what normal public school is.

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And that's saying something as public school, especially in Georgia is already not great.

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But if the Department of Defense is behind that whole thing, and I'll give you an example. So when

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I moved to Georgia, when I left, I was in the third grade and I moved halfway through the year in

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third grade. So I was finishing the back half of third grade. When I got to Georgia, we hadn't

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started on multiplication at all when we were in Germany at all. When we got to Georgia,

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they were already on division. So it was like, I was already vastly, as you know, multiplication,

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you have to know multiplication in order to do division. So it was like, I was already well

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behind the curve. And luckily, I had a third grade teacher who was very, very helpful. And I did a

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lot of tutoring with her. And she was very gracious enough to be like, help me out from school and

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all this other things. And so I, she, and I think really and truly, I probably should have failed

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the third grade. But she was like, you know what, he worked so hard, let's bump him forward. Right.

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So I get to the fourth grade. And the fourth grade teacher that I had was a first year teacher.

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She had never taught before. And she was also kind of a witch. Like she was not very a nice

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person. And in fact, I remember a PTO meeting, she used to give so much homework, she would give

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homework, like six, seven pieces of homework, I would call them pieces because it was six, seven

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different assignments worth of homework a night, not a week a night. And so the thing was I would

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always be working and working and working. And of course, my parents weren't the best ones to

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help me with homework either. But at the same time, it was hard because there's so much going on.

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And I remember being in a PTO meeting and her saying, listen, if your kid is not getting these

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pieces, because that was one of the complaints was listen, you're giving too much homework,

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they're kids, right? They need to go home, they need to have a little bit of homework, sure.

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But then they need to go out and play and things my kids work until seven, eight o'clock at night.

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And the vert and the thing I remember her saying was, no, if they can't do all this homework within

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an hour, something is wrong with your child. That is literally what she said. So that should tell

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you what kind of teacher she was. Anyways, different thing. It was put on me that, Hey,

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you're doing wrong, you're not getting things done, you're making bad grades, even though it

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necessarily wasn't my fault. That's another sign of narcissism. If it's literally your fault for

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everything, that, you know, that's not, that's not right. But anyways, so we get to that point.

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And that was probably the point where, because up to this point, from the time I was born to the

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time that I got to the fourth grade, the first time, I was the, my parents pride and joy,

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because they had nothing to do with, but to brag on me, they had nothing but to brag,

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like, Oh man, my kid knows how to fly. Oh man, my kid's making good grades. Oh, what?

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And so when I failed the third grade or the fourth grade, I'm sorry, it was detrimental.

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Like it was horrible. Like it was one of those things to where I got locked out of my own room.

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Like they literally locked me out of my room, moved me to the gas bedroom where I had nothing.

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You know, it's interesting. I watched a night at the Roxbury. If you've ever seen that movie,

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that SNL movie, and I haven't thought about this for years. I've watched that movie. I don't know

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how many times, but the only thing that I had in this guest bedroom was I had hidden a CD player,

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one of those portable CD players, and I had a night at the Roxbury CD in there. And that was

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the only contents that I had from my room at the time. And it was, I had hit it between the mattress

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and the box spring. And that's the only music that I would listen to. So listening to the soundtrack,

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I started remembering, oh man, because I thought to myself like, oh yeah, I remember the soundtrack

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very vividly. I can remember all the lyrics and everything else. Why is that? Because that's the

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only CD you had during that time. And so why that was is because I no longer was the pride and joy.

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They no longer can see me as a source of pride because I failed the fourth grade and that is

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not a source of pride anymore. That is detrimental. They can't sit here and say, oh, well, he

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knows how to fly and whatever because everybody knew that I failed the fourth grade. So it was to

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them, they're sitting here thinking, oh man, well, he failed. So that's an indication to us.

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And that is a pride issue with us. That's no longer a pride point to us. And so things got

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vastly worse during that time. And I was treated horribly during that time. And so things began

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to pick up. I get into fifth grade, everything's fine. I get into sixth grade, everything's fine.

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I started picking up my grades. I started playing football and football was a big motivator of,

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okay, I got to keep my grades good because of football and everything else. Other than that,

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I didn't have a huge motivation to keep my grades up. But once I got to that point, okay,

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things were good. But then that's when I became the pride and joy again. It's always playing

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football, he has good grades. And by this point, and something I didn't say, when I started

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when I failed the fourth grade, that's when the flight lessons also stopped. That's when the money

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stopped coming out. That is when I stopped getting money spent on me. And so it was, and Chris, I

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just want to stop right here. Do you remember those times I want to ask you as a friend who saw

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those times, what kind of was your perspective when that happened? My perspective was, I thought

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your parents were wealthy, to be honest with you, because like, I remember going over to your room

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for the first or going to your house for the first time, I went to your room and like you had like

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this like brand new sound system, you had those lights that were like, and it was like, oh, wow,

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like, I was like, you had an Xbox, like you had like all these things. And I was like, I'm like,

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you were getting like, I say this, and I've told Micah this to his face, but like, I was kind of

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envious of Micah during that time, because like he would always get like the newest clothes, all

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that stuff. And so during that time, like I was that's when we shared like I would get Micah's

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hand me downs because he was also growing. But I think around like, I don't know, they had to buy

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you clothes because you were like growing, right? But like constantly after like seventh grade, I

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don't I didn't get any more like reason being is because I stopped growing at that point. Like I

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had all my growth spurts and I was this you can't tell from the camera, but I'm six three, as far as

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height wise, and I was that tall in the seventh grade. So it you know, I was having all these

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growth spurts during that time. But it was very much and this will kind of put you in perspective

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and just kind of how Micah's friendship was. And we've we joke about it now, but Micah would tell

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me like I saved you like you were a little nerd boy, like I'm the reason you're not a nerd anymore.

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To be quite frank with you and they were pretty open about it, you know, they pretty much said my

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family was like lesser than your family because of where we lived and they were like, they didn't

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straight up call us trash, but they were just like, I like he's I felt like I was like the charity case.

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Yeah, you were your best friend. Absolutely. So like I would go on trips and like vacations with

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Micah because I was like, he's only kid. So like, he wants a friend to hang out with but it was always

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kind of like, well, they feel bad. Right. Well, like my whole life wasn't like my home life wasn't

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terrible, but like my parents were going through some things and like, yeah, it's kind of why it

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wasn't widely known, but people knew like my parents were, you know, having some things that

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they were going through. And so it was kind of like, Oh, we'll pray for Christopher and his family.

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They're you know what I mean? So it was and yeah, at the beginning when when y'all first moved, like

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that's when like it was like high end, like everything high end everything like that's a

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whole nother rabbit trail that we can get. But right. Much like, you know, Micah, Micah was like,

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Hey, I got to be the forefront of attention and like looking back at it. Now it's kind of like

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part of it is being in a narcissistic atmosphere, but part of it is also too like, it's like, I got

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a fight for attention because unless I'm getting attention, like you had the mines because there

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was a there was a period where Micah like, I would say probably from after he failed fourth grade,

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the first time to probably that seventh grade time, it was a trouble kid, I guess. And you were always

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getting in trouble for always getting trouble. I was always fighting for attention. And the reason

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being is because even though I had all this stuff at the beginning, all this stuff was because it

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was just for what Chris said is so that when Chris came over or when friends came over, they can go,

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Oh my gosh, Micah has all this stuff. Look how great of a life he lives. And again, that comes back

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on them that comes back on them and go look how great of parents we are because we bought them

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an Xbox, we bought them a sound system. The funny thing is going back to the whole sound system thing,

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I couldn't run it because my mother was all like, Oh my God, so loud and like you could barely turn

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that thing to nothing. So it was all for show like it was all a those are all showpieces. Like,

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yes, I was able to play the Xbox. But I remember so many nights where my father would come up to

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my room. I'd be trying to sleep like I'm trying to go to bed and do this other thing. And he's the

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one playing the Xbox. It really wasn't for me. Like it was for them. And not just that it was to show

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that Hey, yes, we got the money. We spoiled the crap out of our kid. My kid is better than yours.

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My life is better than yours. Like that's a lot of like, but they would use like, Oh yeah, like

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we we cut the cable off because you got bad grades. But reality was football season was just over

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and they didn't want to pay. Right. Exactly. Every time football season would be over. So,

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you know, just after February, February, March, it's like, Oh, well, you didn't get good grades

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this year. So we're cutting off the cable. It had nothing to do with me getting bad grades. It was

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literally, yes, they were trying to punish me for it. But at the same time, they're going to cut

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the cable off anyways, right? They were going to go down to basic cable anyways. And so a lot of

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what ended up happening, and what a lot of people don't know is between fourth grade and what Chris

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was saying, the eighth grade timeframe was I was not allowed unless they were home. I wasn't allowed

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to go outside. And during the summer times, they're not hiring babysitters. Like there was a to a

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certain point, like I remember the hired babysitters up until I always call it fourth grade, the first

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time, right? The first time I went through it. And then I went through it the second time. But

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fourth grade, the first time I remembered them hiring babysitters every afternoon. It was two

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sisters that lived down the road and, you know, they were in high school and they would help me

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with my homework and all sorts of stuff, which I was very grateful for because I had that wonderful

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experience. Just like some of y'all have, which y'all's parents have like, okay, Johnny's got two

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apples and you take what away? What does that mean? It's like, that beats three, go get my belt

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or something. You know what I mean? Like that was the experience I had. And so it's like, I was

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very grateful. Okay, they're going to do this. But once that second fourth grade came about, it was

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like, okay, you can handle yourself. We're not hiring anybody anymore. But you got to stay inside.

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If I catch you come home and you're not outside. And the whole thing was because it's like, you

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can get kidnapped, you can get whatever, you know, that was the whole guys that it was under.

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But it what it really was for was it was because of control. It was that whole control piece of you

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staying inside. If you go outside, we're going to get you like the belt's coming off and you're

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going to get your hide taken off. And I did a few times because I want to go outside and play with

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my friends. My parents wouldn't come home till 536 o'clock at night. And we got out of school at

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three. So sure. And then in the summertime, we're home all day long. We're home all day long. You

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think a kid wants to sit there all day long and do nothing but watch TV? Like they're going to get

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bored and you want to go outside and be with your friends. And so I got in trouble many times for

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that sort of thing. But this is why there was a lot of attention seeking as well is because I was

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left alone a lot. I was left alone a ton. And when you're being told, you're the greatest thing since

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sliced bread, the actions are showing differently. The actions are showing no, you're doing horrible.

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And what they're telling people. So what would be interesting is what they would tell me is like

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you're doing bad, your grades are bad, we're taking the cable away, we're taking this away,

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we're taking your room away, we're locking you in the guest bedroom. You're not going to have

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anything. You're not supposed to even have a CD in there. It's like, I remember there were several

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times that friends of my folks would come over with their kids and whatever, and they would unlock my

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bedroom. And it would be like one night of being back in my bedroom, like my official bedroom and

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be like, enjoy it while you can because you got like three, four hours in here and it's locked back

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up. Everybody didn't know. Everybody didn't know. Everybody still got the whole show of like, hey,

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you got the Xbox, hey, you got the sound system, hey, you got all this stuff. But I had no access to

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it because of this punishment that was going on because there was a lack of pride. And even it

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was very confusing because when they would tell me, hey, you're doing wrong, they would tell other

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people, oh, look how great Micah is. Oh, he's doing fantastic. And the story was always so vastly

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different. In fact, I used to enjoy when other people came over because it was like, hey, I'm

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actually something again, right? I'm something to them. I'm something to other people. But when it

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was not there, when people were not there, when Chris wasn't there, when other people weren't

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there, it was like, it was a vastly different experience than what they were seeing. And so it

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was, and it was based off of the whole fact that there was no pride in what I was doing at the time.

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It was about what I was doing and how well I was doing. And if that's not there, they have no pride

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and they have nothing to tell people. So they have to literally give a facade and a show. Again,

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another bits of narcissism there. So I, and again, this tell you, like, hey, I considered Micah's

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parents like my second parents for sure. So it's not like a, hey, Chris was, but like they, because

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when I looked up to them, I was like, man, they got a great marriage, like, especially with Micah's

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paternal unit, like, man, he's successful, like, because he would always be like, yeah, if you

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want something, you just go in there and take it. And he would have these stories of like, oh, yeah,

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well, like I wanted this at a discount and they were telling me no. And so I just kept on and on.

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I asked for the manager a good phrase he would always use is tell them that's not good enough.

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And so I was like, man, this guy is like successful, like, and he had like influence and people looked

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up to him. And so I maybe be like, man, like, this is what success is like. And so if I want to

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be successful, I need to be this way. Doing what he's doing. I gotta be doing the actions that he's

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doing, what he does. And, you know, and one thing that I will say about narcissism, and we'll go back

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to kind of the timeline and things like that. But one thing I will say about narcissists is they are

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very good at portraying a character. They're very good at portraying, look at me, I am the best

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thing since life's bred, I volunteer over here, I do this over here. But one thing that I will tell

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you, and this is a verbatim from something that my father, the narcissist has said is everybody

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has an agenda. Everybody is out and they have their own agenda, and they're looking to do their own

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things. And so just because of what is outward facing, that is not what they're after, you have

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to look beyond that and see the agenda that they have. As I've lived life, I've realized, no, not

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everybody has a hidden agenda of what is going on. That's just narcissistic people that have

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hidden agendas that are like, okay, how can I look good so that I can use the situation? And I can

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use the situation for my gain. And so that was, you know, and again, these are all lessons that

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have been learned over time. There would be, and we talked a little bit more, I'm kind of jumping

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ahead, but we talked a little bit of how the mica came related to this where it'd be like, I know

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you're lying to me, don't lie to me, tell me the truth. And it would be about something that you're

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like, completely blindsided by number one, right? It's just love to blindside you. The number two,

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if you don't give them the answer they want, then they're going to, it's like an interrogation. And

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so my cooking probably, yeah, that way it's like, yeah. And so we'll go into the next part, seventh

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grade. So it just like a lot of kids and a lot of other things, I went through a lying phase, I

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went through a phase where I was lying about everything. And the reason being is because I never

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felt good enough, right? I never felt like I was good enough. So I had to portray myself as something

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higher than I actually was. And Chris, all that even earlier in time, third, fourth grade, I used to

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say stupid stuff like, Oh yeah, I just hit my watch and dropped the mom and I rack and all this

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other crap, right? When I was stupid little. And the reason being is because I felt like I wasn't

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enough just being me sitting here being a friend. Like I felt like I had to be something larger than

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life because that's what I'm betrayed as is, Hey, you're a miracle child. Hey, you know how to fly

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a plane. Hey, and so you have to build yourself up to be this larger than life person. And so I

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always wanted to build myself up as this huge larger than life person who's doing things that

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nobody else is doing, right? And so a lot of what ended up happening and the instances that I'm

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going to go into is I started lying a ton. I started lying about everything and small things,

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big things, all sorts of things. And kind of what Chris is talking about, about, you know,

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going and saying, I know what you did and things like that. So during these times, yes, I was getting

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in a lot of trouble because I was also trying to get a lot of attention in school. I was talking a

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ton. I was like, Oh yeah, I know how to fight. I was fighting kids left and right because it was

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like, okay, I'm the best fighter out there. I'm the, you're trying to prove that you're the best

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at everything. You're the best at everything that you can do. And so because that is the only way

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that I felt like I was getting love from particularly my father. And what's interesting is at that

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time, that's when I really saw my mother more as an equal than actually a parent because we were

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almost in the same boat together. We were both vying for attention as well. And so a lot of what

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ends up happening is you're just vying for this attention. And so I was getting in trouble a lot.

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I was having all these problems. And so it's like, okay, I know what you did. I know what you did

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at school. Your teacher called me. They're lying to you nine times out of 10. It's like, he didn't

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hear from my teacher. He didn't know what was going on. But at the same time I'm sitting here

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going the other live that I was pumped was I'm your father. I will always know better than you.

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I'll always know before you. I will always know everything about what's going on. So you just

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mind as well just tell me what's going on, which was not the truth. That was not the truth. He

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didn't know what was going on. And a lot of the things that I was going through and doing at school

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were very small, minuscule items that the teacher really and truly was probably like, Hey, watch it.

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I'm going to give you this, you know, it wasn't like a full ride up or anything like that. It was

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like, I'm going to give you a demerit. Like I remember middle school demerits were like a big

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thing. And basically all that was was just like a brown, you know, as a black note on whatever. But

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if you got like three or four of those, then you'd get written up and go to the principal's

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office. But it's for minor things like, Hey, you're talking in class. Hey, you're making a nuisance

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out of yourself. Hey, you're doing this, you're doing that, or you're being disrespectful or

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whatever. It's like most teachers don't have time to send the kids the principal for every two seconds,

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right? And so they're not calling your parents either because they ain't got time for all that.

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But what would happen is you I'd be sitting there at dinner and go, and you know, it was always and

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what also was worse too was my father was also a psychiatry major. So he also knew all about how

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mentally things work, right? So he knew how to just really get things going. And so you'd be

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sitting there at dinner and I would be sitting there. I don't know how many times it'd be sitting

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there like, okay, he doesn't know what's going on. Like he doesn't know what I did at school today.

365
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:36,400
Like he doesn't know all this stuff that happened. And then all of a sudden we'd just be eating. He

366
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,520
wouldn't even look up from his plate. He'd just go, Yeah, your teacher told me exactly what you

367
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,320
did today. You want to go ahead and tell me about that before, because the whole thing that he told

368
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:51,520
me was if you tell me about it, you're in less trouble than if you don't tell me about it,

369
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,880
which was not necessarily true. It was you're going to be in trouble regardless. And you're

370
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,520
going to go through the same experience regardless, but I didn't know that at the time. So of course,

371
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,200
you're like, man, I don't want to get more trouble. I don't want to get the belt. Like I don't want

372
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,600
to get in trouble for what I'm not supposed to do. So you go, okay, and you tell the truth. And

373
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,600
so many times I would tell the truth and it's like, Nope, you're lying. That's a lie. And so what

374
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:22,400
ends up happening is you start a pattern of placating them by lying and going, You know what,

375
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:28,800
because they're pushing the issue so many times. For example, there was one time that and this is

376
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,600
kind of a weird example, but we had kind of a career day at school sort of thing where a bunch

377
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,800
of people came in and just with different careers and you had to like sign up for different

378
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,840
like the different classes. And one of the main like ones that everybody wanted to do, there was a

379
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,720
guy from Coca-Cola. And the reason that we wanted to go to that one was because they were giving

380
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:52,560
that cans of Coca-Cola. And like that might not sound like a big deal, but when you're in middle

381
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,640
school, you're like, Oh, I want to get a can of Coke for free and everything. So everybody wanted

382
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,880
to be it. Everybody did. And I remember I signed up and I got the last spot at the last class.

383
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,280
And I was like, Oh, yes, like this is great. I'm going to get a can of Coca-Cola and like, I'm going

384
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:13,200
to go see this guy. And I remember getting to that classroom and there was a guy who cut in front

385
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,000
of me and I was like, and they were counting the kids like they weren't actually going by the list.

386
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,280
They were counting the kids and go, Okay, this is 25. We're cutting off right here. And so that

387
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,080
kid was in front of me. And I said, man, like I'm, I'm in line and everything. And that guy said,

388
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,320
tough luck. I mean, I'm paraphrasing. He said something a lot worse than that. But I was a

389
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,960
big kid. I was this big at the time. And I was like, really dude, like I'm getting into that class,

390
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,520
whether you like it or not. And he goes, Oh, yeah, what are you going to do about it? So I checked

391
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,240
them into a locker, I just went right into the locker, right? And of course, a teacher sees me,

392
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,560
sees what happens. I get sent to the principal's office. I get this whole thing, right? And so

393
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:58,000
I tell, you know, I go to the principal's office, but it really wasn't that big of a deal. The principal

394
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,040
was like, dude, why are you doing this crap? Go back to class, right? Like seriously, don't be

395
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,160
checking people in the lockers. Because it really wasn't that big of a deal. It's not like we got

396
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,400
into a full fight or anything. It's just like, dude, don't, don't do that. Just, just go back to

397
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,200
class. So I ended up going back to class. It was no big deal. I get home for dinner. The whole thing

398
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,920
about, I know what you did at school, teacher called me, the principal called me, I know exactly

399
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:25,280
what ended up happening. And so I said, okay, yeah, no big deal. I was in line for this Coca

400
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,440
Cold thing. I checked this kid into a locker, you know, but it wasn't that big of a deal. It's like,

401
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,880
nope, nope, nope. That's not what ended up happening. That's not what ended up happening. I heard you

402
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,440
punch this kid in the face and all this other stuff. And like it was like, it was this whole thing.

403
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,280
It's like, you made this kid bleed and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just this

404
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:47,760
whole thing. And what ends up happening is it's like you have two choices. You can either fight it.

405
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,840
And with narcissists, that doesn't go too far. You can fight it all the live long day till you're

406
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,800
blue in the face. And you can tell them to be like, I'm telling you, this is the truth. This is exactly

407
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:02,560
how it happened. I'm not bsing about what is going on. I literally checked them into the locker

408
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,520
because I wanted to can a Coke. He sent me back to class. It was no big deal. That's not when it

409
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,360
ended up happening. You didn't tell me what's going on. And so that just keeps going and going.

410
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,680
And the punishments get worse, right? It's like, okay, well, you're getting, you're getting a whipping

411
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,680
for lying to me. You're getting a way and you're going, well, I don't want that. Like I'm not lying

412
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,880
to you. So what ends up happening is you placate that and go, all right, yeah, I punched the kid in

413
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:30,240
the face and I beat him up and his blood was, you know, and all this other stuff. And you're like

414
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:35,200
telling all this stuff. And nine times out of 10, you're going, that's not what actually happened.

415
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,640
But I'm just trying to keep myself safe because I don't want this to continue to go on because

416
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:46,720
you're not believing anything that I'm saying. And what's interesting is a lot of the things,

417
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:52,400
even as I got to be an adult and when I would ask my father like, Hey, why wouldn't you believe these

418
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,200
things when I would tell you these things every time it would be things I remember one of the

419
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,200
biggest excuses that I was given. It's like, when you were in the fifth grade, you remember when you

420
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:07,280
bought that Xbox, right? And I bought this Xbox with my own money of $50. I spent this, spent to

421
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,240
get this Xbox. And it was the original Xbox and 360 was already out and there was a sale and whatnot.

422
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:20,960
And I bought this Xbox and we got mad, right? And a kid unbeknownst to me, I got mad and you

423
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:26,000
know how you can go into Madden and the settings and like change the sliders. And basically you can

424
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,360
make like the kicker be super crazy and make 70 yard kicks and all this other crap. Like you can,

425
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:36,720
you can do all that stuff in Madden. And so what ended up happening, not knowing, not knowing that's

426
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:41,440
technically cheating because nobody ever taught me that, I ended up doing that. And so I play against

427
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:47,200
him and my kicker hits a 75 yard field goal and he's like, Oh, you're cheating. That's me.

428
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:52,800
Ta ta ta ta ta. Homie used that against me all the way into, I mean, even into adulthood.

429
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:59,760
But it's like ever since that point, it was like, I don't trust you anymore. And so everything that

430
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:05,360
you say is a lie. Everything that you say to me is a lie, whether it is or whether it isn't. And

431
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:11,280
the whole thing is, it wasn't even about Madden. It wasn't about Madden. It was about, I can tell

432
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:16,640
you those things and make you feel like a piece of crap to the point where you go, Okay, this guy

433
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:23,200
has to be right in what he is saying. Because listen, I don't have integrity. I don't have character.

434
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:28,640
I don't have anything that I have. And you have no morals. Like they will make you feel like you

435
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:36,880
have zero morals. Yes. And so the thing is, it's like that example just was always wild to me

436
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,400
because it's like, dude, I was like nine 10 years old, like I was in the fifth grade with that,

437
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,400
that scenario that you just talked about about checking the kid. He was probably like, well,

438
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,280
he's only telling me partially the truth. I heard you did X, Y and Z to see if you would

439
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:59,840
confess to it's like a second. Yeah, he detects like, okay, you're being you're being a liar,

440
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:05,200
but really and truly he's lying to himself and going, okay, that's not the full story and whatever.

441
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:11,120
I know the full story when he had no clue the full story. And you would lie to he would lie to

442
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:16,400
himself. And then all of a sudden that makes you the liar, you the bad guy. And again, that is one

443
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:22,800
of the big keys of narcissism is you're the problem, not me. I'm not the liar. You're the liar. I'm not

444
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,280
lying to myself. You're lying to yourself. But really and truly, he's the one doing that sort of

445
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:33,680
thing. And so these things happened over the years. And so I went through that lying phase for quite a

446
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:40,080
while, right? And some different things happened. And really what it came down to was he, you know,

447
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,960
I'm not going to delve into really deep into what happened. But there was a lot of corrective

448
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:50,320
action that he tried to take to try to not have me be a liar. And I'm sure that a lot of it was

449
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:55,280
because like, I don't want you to turn out to be the compulsive liar that I am. But at the same

450
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:00,240
time, that's not how it came out, right? That's not how it came across. And really and truly,

451
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:06,720
all that it became was, okay, I'm going to have to learn how to lie better to get around all of

452
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:11,440
this issue. And so that's the mindset that I ended up having instead of, Hey, I don't need to lie

453
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:17,680
about things. It's you need to be a better liar. You need to be a better because, you know, and a

454
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:24,160
lot of it was because you need to lie to be able to placate whatever he's doing, not necessarily

455
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:30,480
what the truth is, because you could tell him the truth doesn't matter. It's, and then even sometimes

456
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,640
if you're like, okay, no, you're right. This is what ended up happening. They're like, nope,

457
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,000
you're lying. See, I could tell that you're lying because of this, this and this. And you're going,

458
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,080
wait a second, I'm literally telling you what you want to hear. What do you mean I'm lying?

459
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,400
And so now it's like, okay, well, I got to figure out how to lie better because I want to get out

460
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:52,000
of these situations. I don't want to be in a discussion for three hours and get just interrogated

461
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:58,640
for three stinking four hours, right? And then still end up getting punished out the wazoo

462
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:06,240
for something that I didn't even do. And so it was a lot of those things that really was hard

463
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:12,000
during those times. And so it became one of those things where it shifted the mindset and I had to

464
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,760
unlearn that really hard when I became an adult because I started, I was lying to a lot of people

465
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:23,200
because I was worried about how, and you know, I still even fight that sometimes there's still

466
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,360
that little thing in my head of, oh, this is going to upset certain people. Maybe I should lie and

467
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:32,560
placate them and tell them what they want to hear so that I don't make them mad and I don't get the

468
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:38,640
consequences of their actions. And you know, that all comes from back then and dealing with that

469
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:42,400
sort of thing. Now I know we went through a lot, Chris. And I know I did a lot of the talking

470
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,920
because we're still on this track. I know. So we're kind of in our timeline, we talked about how

471
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:53,920
we took out hiatus from being friends and part of the reason why I moved out like, yeah, Micah

472
00:42:53,920 --> 00:43:01,680
and I were having like, not like kind of, but like what really caused me to move out was it would

473
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:08,240
be one of those things of, Hey, you can come in, you can tell us anything like, even if you wreck

474
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,240
the car, if you get someone pregnant, whatever, like we are expecting you to come in and have

475
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:21,440
this conversation. So whatever. And it was also like a, Hey, like you're young, you're 20, like

476
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:27,680
1920, like be free. You got your whole life to do all this. And then I remember this one family

477
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:32,160
meeting. And again, we've talked about how like anytime we would go out or get a burger or whatever,

478
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,360
it was always like, where are you at? What are you doing? You shouldn't be out this way, this

479
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,200
and that. So they would say like, Hey, go live your life. But then it was like, where are you at?

480
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,520
What are you doing? Type deal. And I remember this one family meeting, he came down hard on me and

481
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:50,880
Micah and was like, this isn't just a place for you to hang your hat. Like you need it. Y'all need

482
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:56,640
to start contributing and this and that. But like, we had gone through a period like, Hey, we'll cut

483
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,960
the grass, like all that stuff. And we kind of stopped doing that because we were like, we're

484
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:06,720
tired of just, I don't know, whatever. But so I remember being like, okay, well, this is his house.

485
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:11,840
These are his rules. I don't like them. So I'm going to move out. So my question for you, sorry,

486
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:17,440
that was a long way to get this. When did you start being like, Hey, I really am starting to

487
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:24,240
notice these signs. And as an adult, and you're like, Hey, like, this is not something I want to

488
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:28,720
be a part of. When did you start having that self awareness? Because during the, you don't know

489
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:33,360
any better, right? Right, right. It really took my wife coming into the equation to really help

490
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,360
me out. And of course, she was my girlfriend at the time and things like that. But part of the

491
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:45,280
things that I started seeing was, I did bring a few friends by like, we talked about Fat Cat before,

492
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,160
and things like that. He hated coming to my house. He refused to come to my house because he did not

493
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,720
like my parents like he did not like them at all. He didn't like anything they stood. I don't know

494
00:44:54,720 --> 00:45:00,880
necessarily what they did to make him not like them, but that was not a unique scenario. Right.

495
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:06,400
It was a lot of people that I would bring by they're like, Yeah, let's hang out other places and

496
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:12,160
let's not hang out around them and things like that. And, you know, there was a lot that I started

497
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,000
realized and it's like, man, I'm starting to offend them or not really starting. It's like,

498
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,360
I've been defending them a lot my entire life. And even some of the things that they would say,

499
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,840
even some of the things that my paternal unit would say, he used to say this one thing.

500
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,800
He's like, if something is going on, and there's all these people up here and you're the common

501
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:38,320
denominator, you're the one, right? You're the one who feels a certain type of way, then it's you,

502
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:43,840
that's the problem. And he used that a lot to make it like, okay, you're the problem. But I started

503
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:49,200
realizing, wait a second, there's all these numbers of people saying, Hey, they're the problem. And

504
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,720
they're the only one saying, Hey, everybody else is the problem, not me. So it's like, hold on,

505
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:59,680
that principle does math, but it's mapping in the other direction that you're telling me that it's

506
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:06,160
mapping. And so that's kind of how it started. I ended up meeting my girlfriend at the boot

507
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,200
corral. When I worked there the second time, Chris wasn't working there this that time. And I met her,

508
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,920
I brought her home. I mean, she was, I only brought two girls home. I brought a previous girlfriend

509
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:22,160
home and I brought her home. And I remember the first thing that happened. They liked her. They

510
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:27,360
thought that she was good and whatnot. But I remember they had said, you know,

511
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,160
do you think she's the one? And I said, Yeah, I do. And she said, Well, you think you thought

512
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,600
about that the last time you thought about that the last time you thought the last one was the

513
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,320
girl and whatnot. And it's like, both of them were very for both very serious situations, right?

514
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,400
The very first girlfriend that I ever had was the one that brought home. And of course, if you've

515
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,840
ever been in that first situation, of course, you think there's the one because you've never been

516
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,040
loved before. So of course, you think that's the one you're going to spend the rest of your life

517
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,240
with, right? But this one was vastly different. My wife was like, No, this is the one I know this

518
00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,560
is it like beyond the shadow of a doubt this the last time was whatever. But they were like, Oh,

519
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,240
no, you said that about the last one, you said about the last one. And not just that, but when

520
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:09,840
they would come over her name is Megan, they would call her by my ex's name, like they would be like

521
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:15,360
whatever just to screw with her. And they like, Oh, accident, it was on purpose. Oh, it was on

522
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,440
purpose. And they'd be like, Oh, yeah, well, is there really any difference, you know, da, da,

523
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:24,640
da, da, da, da, like, yeah, they would say things like that. Yeah, it was real messed up. And then

524
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:31,440
what ended up happening was, so the biggest thing where I really started seeing it was,

525
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,440
they were very much again, I'm very big on aviation, I wanted to be a pilot and things like

526
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,320
that. One of the biggest things that was happening at the time was I was going through college and

527
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,800
I was paying my own way through South Plains College, which is a community college at that point.

528
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,280
And so it was cheap, it was like $2,000 a semester, which some people that's like, Oh,

529
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,600
that's not cheap. But for college, that's pretty cheap. And so with the money that I was making

530
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:59,200
and living at home, I was able to afford to pay my own college tuition, even though I was told,

531
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:04,720
Hey, we're going to cover your college tuition. But the whole reason that they were not covering

532
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:10,240
the college tuition all of a sudden, whenever it came time was because you're not doing anything

533
00:48:10,240 --> 00:48:14,320
aviation related. So we're not going to cover that. You're just wasting your time. We're not

534
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:19,040
going to cover that. And the whole argument was, Okay, well, I'm just trying to get a degree.

535
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,080
Really, there's a lot of people who are pilots who have degrees and all sorts of other things.

536
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:29,520
It's just about getting the degree. And for me, this is my logical side of my mind. And this

537
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:35,520
is how I was thinking at the time at age 19 and 20. And I still feel this way is the aviation

538
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:40,160
industry is a very volatile industry. It goes up and down and up and down and up and down and up

539
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:47,280
and down. So if you get a degree in aviation, if aviation goes, then you're kind of SOL, right?

540
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,760
Like you're having a problem. And I remember trying to explain that to them. And my paternal

541
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,680
unit is like, well, you listen, you're, you're, and I'm not going to say my last name, but it's

542
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,720
like you're this last name and you're better than everybody else. And so what should happen is if

543
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:05,920
you're going to be like that, then, you know, you are going to have a job no matter what. And you

544
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,920
need to have the faith that you're going to be the best and the brightest and you're going to have

545
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:16,160
the job no matter what. I'm sitting here going like, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

546
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,800
Because as much as you can think that way, aviation is one of those things you could be out on.

547
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,280
It don't matter how many hours you have. It doesn't matter anything about you could be out on your

548
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:31,280
butt and have no job tomorrow. Like that is not how that works. So I knew I needed a backup plan

549
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:36,160
to where it's like, okay, because especially, and I think this was a very much of a God thing,

550
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,960
because at the time the aviation industry was down, like it was incredibly down to where there

551
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:46,720
was people just a few months before who had thousands of hours of flight time who are working

552
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:52,320
at McDonald's because they had no other experience besides flying. And they could not get back into

553
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,160
flying because of how the industry was now. Now the industry picked back up, they were able to get

554
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:01,760
back into it. But the thing is, it's like, listen, I need to be able to make good tangible money

555
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:08,640
if I get laid off in between these hiatus times. So I thought, okay, a business degree.

556
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:15,600
I even, you know, I didn't think about information technology at the time, but largely it was

557
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:21,120
business. It was, I think there was even like, I want to learn cultural studies or something

558
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:27,040
like that. There was like biology, marine biology, like there was all sorts of things, right? And so

559
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,720
my girlfriend and I, we were living out, she was living out of town. She was living in Central

560
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:36,480
Texas. I was living in Lubbock with my parents, and she came up for the weekend. And we had talked

561
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:40,320
about all this and she agreed with me. She said, listen, I understand where you're coming from.

562
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:46,480
And I think that's very smart of you to do that. And so let's print out a bunch of these degree

563
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,040
programs and a bunch of the flight schools and say, Hey, I will attend this flight school,

564
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:56,240
and I will attend this school and do a degree program at the same time. And so I can fly,

565
00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:02,240
I can get the degree. And so that I'm covered on both ends, right? And so I remember having that

566
00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:09,600
conversation with him. And that was a no go. My God, I, both of us got ripped, like you would

567
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:15,120
not believe because it was, Oh no, that's not good at all. That's not what you're supposed to do.

568
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,560
I'm not going to pay for that. I'm not going to support that. I can't even believe you would even

569
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:25,840
think like that. You are about aviation. Your passion is flying. You should be doing nothing

570
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:30,800
but flying. And it's like, listen, you don't know the industry like I know the industry. I am trying

571
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:37,360
to tell you that the industry is volatile. It is down right now. Even if I were to jump in right now

572
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:42,560
as a newbie, I couldn't get a job if I even wanted to. And even if it picks back up, it is going to

573
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:47,920
drop back off. That is just the ebb and flow of the industry. I need to be smart about these things.

574
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,240
Like I have to, and you, you don't know anything about that sort of thing. Don't tell,

575
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:57,440
don't tell a narcissist they don't know about a certain subject, by the way. And so it was that

576
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:04,240
at that point in that conversation, I knew, okay, he is only going to see what he wants to see.

577
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:08,960
He is only going to see what he wants to see. And what he wanted to see, it's because of the

578
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:14,880
narrative. Again, it goes back to the narrative of it sounds so much better of my kid is going to

579
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:20,000
school for an aviation degree and he's in flight school at the same time. Business degree in flight

580
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:26,720
school doesn't sound as good, right? Biology in flight school doesn't sound as good. So it's one

581
00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:31,760
of those things that's not what he wanted. In fact, what he wanted for the longest time, he wanted

582
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,600
me to go to the Air Force Academy and he wanted me to go into the Air Force. I did not want to go

583
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:42,560
into the Air Force. But at the same time, think about how good that sounds. My kid is going to

584
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:47,840
the one of the military academies, which are hard to get into. And so I even remember

585
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:55,040
I applied for the, for the Air Force Academy, got the little recommendation from whoever the,

586
00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:01,360
not Chip Roy, whoever the Congressman was up there at the time, like I got a recommendation

587
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:06,000
from him, but it was only for West Point and Merchant Marine. Like that was literally all that was

588
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:11,120
for. I'm like, man, I'm not going Coast Guard in Army. Like I really did not want to go do those

589
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,760
things. And so he was like, he even like made the plan for me. He's like, all right, so what you're

590
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,960
going to do is you're going to go to tech, Texas Tech, they're in Lubbock and we're, you know, you're

591
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,480
going to join the Air Force ROTC, you're going to make good grades. And then in two years, there's a

592
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:30,160
whole program like he'd looked all this up and he's like, there's this whole program where you can

593
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:35,600
transfer over and it's easier than getting in high school and all this. He really wanted me to go

594
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:42,640
Air Force ROT, Air Force Academy, all this stuff, right? And so again, when it's like, no, I'm not

595
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:48,880
going to do that sort of thing. It started getting, the relationship started going very, very far down.

596
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:54,560
That is one thing about narcissism is, you know, a lot of things, especially from parents, you're

597
00:53:54,560 --> 00:54:00,640
expecting an unconditional relationship. It was very conditional. It was very conditional of

598
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:06,320
you either do what we want you to do, or you are not getting the support. That's literally it.

599
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,800
That's literally it. And I'm going to kind of link those two again together. So I ended up,

600
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,840
I ended up saying, you know what, screw this, man, I'm not playing the games anymore. I'm not

601
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,680
doing any of this. And I was still talking with him, but I decided to move down to Central Texas

602
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:27,360
with my girlfriend and I decided to go and that was a big deal, especially growing up in the

603
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:32,400
religious space that we did. I went and moved in with my girlfriend, got an apartment with her.

604
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,800
And at the time they had a flight school down there that I was like, okay, I'm going to attend that

605
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,560
flight school. And of course it didn't end up happening because I couldn't afford it. But

606
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:46,240
because I had no financial support from them. It's like, you move down there, that's all on you.

607
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,440
So I remember saving up the money and I ended up moving down there because,

608
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:54,400
and especially towards the end, the narrative was, you're just a bum. You're just a bum. And I have

609
00:54:54,400 --> 00:55:01,200
this cousin who lived at home until he was 30. And they use that guy as an example left and right

610
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,200
of, oh, you just go live at home till you're 30. Like you're not doing nothing with your life. It's

611
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,560
like, dude, I have a job. I'm in college. I'm paying my own tuition in college. And that was not good

612
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:15,680
enough. Like that was not good enough. And so I was just like, man, I'm sick and tired of this

613
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,400
not being good enough ever. Like I'm helping around the house. I'm mowing the grass. I'm going to

614
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:25,600
school. I'm going to work. I'm doing all this stuff. And it's not good enough. So you know what?

615
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,600
I'm going to go be happy. I'm going to go with my girlfriend. I'm going to go down to Central

616
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,520
Texas and I'm going to go to flight school and I'll figure out a way to afford it then because

617
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,560
you're not paying for anything anyways. And so now that I talked about a lot. And of course,

618
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:42,880
there's a lot of in between that's, it would take a lot more than this podcast to delve through

619
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:47,920
everything that happened. But essentially that's what ended up happening. And I'm going to zoom

620
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:53,760
forward just in my experience, Chris, but what ended up happening, I still talked with them for

621
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:59,920
quite a while. But again, it was very conditional. And every time that I talked with them, I'll put

622
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:05,600
it to this way. I was scared to death. Like, okay, my father wants to talk to me on the phone. And

623
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:11,040
like my wife now who is my girlfriend will tell you that I would sit there for moments just like

624
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:15,280
shaking like, man, I'm going to have to talk to him because I knew the conversation was about to

625
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:20,320
be you're doing wrong. You're doing terrible. You're living with your girlfriend. That's sinful.

626
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,840
You're not you're not doing flight school like you're supposed to. You're going to school for

627
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:29,680
something else. That's not right. And just just rip you the entire time. And I told them, I don't

628
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:36,080
know how many times like, man, let me live my life. What I want from you right now is I want,

629
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:41,600
I want because I feel like at a certain point and what I try to convey to him is after the age of 18,

630
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:46,480
you've reared me enough to the point where at this point, you should be supportive of what I'm

631
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:51,120
doing, even if you don't agree with it, you should be supportive of what I'm doing. You should help

632
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:56,240
me through my life challenges. And it's not that I'm being a bad guy. I'm not even out of jail. I'm

633
00:56:56,240 --> 00:57:01,360
not doing I'm not on drugs. I'm not doing any of this stuff. So all I want you to do is I want

634
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,920
to pick up the phone and say, Hey, did you watch the tech game this weekend? Hey, did you watch

635
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:11,200
what the Cowboys were doing and have a relationship with you like that? And that was not possible

636
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:16,720
at all. It was literally you are doing wrong. You were the absolute worst thing that is going on

637
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:22,880
right now. And it was always wrong. And that happened for years. And you know, when it changed,

638
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:31,120
it changed. So I got into it, which was the same industry that he is in. And I worked my way up

639
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:37,600
and I had a friend of mine at the time, he's no longer a friend, but he was working. I had

640
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:44,160
got him a job with my father in it there in Lubbock at one point. And my father had left,

641
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,880
I had left Lubbock and everything like that. And I was still in contact with this friend and he

642
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,280
said, Hey, you know, we've got this position open. It's like two steps ahead of where you're at

643
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:57,840
right now, but we can't find anybody. And so I told the guy said, Well, why not me man? Like,

644
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:02,000
I'm a quick learner, like I'll get in there and I'll really work it out and things like that.

645
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:07,120
And so I get in there and he says, Sure, like absolutely, I think that's great. I interview,

646
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:15,760
I end up getting a job. I kid you not man, given my father that parental unit that call,

647
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,680
he's like, Well, yeah, you should thank me for that, you know, and you know, he was taking

648
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,600
the credit for for getting this. And I didn't think anything of it, man, I was just more happy

649
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:29,600
that he was happy with me. Right. And the relationship improved vastly. It improved greatly.

650
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:35,040
Like we had the best relationship we probably had in my entire life. Like we were close,

651
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,200
we would literally just talk on the phone and it would just be about, it wouldn't be about work.

652
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:44,080
Like sometimes it would be like, Oh yeah, someone's still still working there or whatever, but a lot

653
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:50,160
of it would be what I was looking for was the support was the, you know, Hey, football, we're

654
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:56,560
watching football this weekend, we're doing this, we're doing that, whatever. Suddenly that started

655
00:58:56,560 --> 00:59:02,160
changing in that job. And unfortunately, the other person I was working with was a narcissist as

656
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:10,080
well. And the biggest thing about narcissists is they demand loyalty, 100% loyalty. I started

657
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:15,840
coming across things that some people were doing over there based and I was doing my job, but I

658
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:22,160
started uncovering certain things that they did not like. And so they viewed that as, Hey, you're

659
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:27,760
not being loyal anymore. You're not being loyal because you are outing us for what we are doing.

660
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,840
We expected you to be in this position. They expected me to be a yes man. They expected me to

661
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:37,920
just play Kate and just go on with what they're doing. Yeah, exactly. And so what ended up happening

662
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:43,280
was I was like, no. And so they started pressuring me to get out. They started making meetings just

663
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,680
to pressure me and everything like that. And so I started calling my father and go, Hey, listen,

664
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:52,480
this guy is not what I thought he was supposed to be. He is starting to force me out. What do I do?

665
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:57,520
It was all about, it was all, well, that's your problem. You did something to screw this up. You

666
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,760
did something to screw this up. You did something. Well, you know, it was all about, it was my fault.

667
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:06,720
It was somehow my fault that I was doing all of this and just stick it out because, you know,

668
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,280
this, you know, it'll be, it'll be better. Do you know how many times I've had HR reports

669
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:16,160
filed on me? And it's like, but dude, I've never had an HR report filed on me because I've never

670
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:22,320
done anything crazy. I'm literally just doing my job. I had an HR report filed on me that I

671
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:26,560
had faked the drug test to get the job. And I knew exactly where it came from. It was from this other

672
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,200
guy because he's trying to force me out of this place. And so I'm like, dude, I've never had these

673
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:37,600
things happen in my life. So I need your help. Like I need your help as a father. Tell me how

674
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:42,480
to get out of this situation because this is not what I'm looking for. Every other job that I've

675
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:47,280
had, they've loved me because of how hard that I work. And it was all based off of my merits. This

676
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:52,720
is the first job that they're like, man, you suck your terrible HR reports left and right and all

677
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:57,200
this other stuff. And I know what they're trying to do. I need your help. No, it's your fault. It's

678
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:01,920
your fault. And so finally, I made the decision because it was really affecting my relationship

679
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:06,800
with my now wife, who was my still my girlfriend at the time, but it was really affecting that it

680
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:12,960
was really affecting every bit of my life. I was unhappy. Like, Chris will tell you he was this

681
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:17,680
is when we had reconvened his friends. I mean, we took so many drives or I'm just talking about

682
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:22,800
these things. And it's just like he's not bad, but it was to the point where you were you're

683
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:27,520
pretty paranoid, like you were constantly looking like, are they listening in to me like this and

684
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:31,120
that? I would turn off my phone when we had conversations because I'm like, I'm worried

685
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,560
that they're tapped into my phone and they're listening to me. And I'm worried that you know,

686
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:39,360
like it was it was just to a really, really bad point. I was also having health problems because

687
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:43,600
of it. I ended up having to have a surgery and I'm convinced those health problems are just the

688
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:48,560
sheer stress of the of the matter, right? And so finally, and this is definitely a God thing.

689
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:53,920
And this is how you know it's God is I called my former, my former job, my former boss and I said,

690
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,960
Hey, do you have any openings? And this was during COVID. And he said, Yeah, we do. And we're all

691
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:04,160
remote right now. And we would love to give you your job back. Like I gave one call, five minute

692
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:08,000
conversation. Like, dude, we will send you a laptop and you can start in two weeks.

693
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:13,360
Bet me, like I could be out of here and I could have another job. I mean, how many, how many

694
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:17,840
times in life have you had like a lineup like that happen? It typically does not happen like that.

695
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,840
So you know, it's a God of like, open the door, get the heck out of here because it's not the

696
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:29,040
place for you. And so I remember I gave my two weeks and again, all these people that were trying

697
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:33,600
to oust me also knew him as well. So I knew that, Hey, they're going to probably give him a call

698
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:39,120
and be like, your son is da da da da da da da da da. And so I wanted to be like, listen, I wanted

699
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:45,680
you to hear it for me first. And this is why. So I gave him the call. And I said, Hey, you know,

700
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:50,960
I'm leaving, I'm leaving this, this place. And here's the reason why I've already got another job

701
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:59,360
lined up. Like it's no big deal. He ripped me hours of just ripping me on the phone. And I remember

702
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:03,760
getting really heated and going, listen, you don't sit in my chair and you don't do what I do every

703
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,320
day and you don't face the pressures that I face every single day. You don't hear the things that

704
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:13,200
are being said, you don't have that happening to you. So you don't understand what's going on.

705
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,440
And the line that came out of that was, and this was when Donald Trump was doing the first thing.

706
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:23,200
And for all you Donald Trump fans, but he's literally said, you want to be like Donald Trump,

707
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,960
you want to be able to walk out in the street, shoot somebody in the head and get away with it.

708
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:34,720
And I'm, and that was the really defining moment for me to go, my gosh, this guy is a monster.

709
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:41,280
Like this, it's not just he's bad. He is a monster. Because if anybody that is going to say that,

710
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:48,480
that is the intentions and how they live. That is, he was giving me the exact way that he wants to

711
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:53,440
live. He wants to be able to do whatever he wants and be able to get away with it and have people

712
01:03:53,440 --> 01:04:00,000
just go along with it. And he's like, that's where you're going wrong is you're not doing things and

713
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:05,680
you're not being rude and mean enough and being able to get away with it. You need to figure out

714
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:10,720
how to do that. No, I don't. And that is when I made the decision to say, I'm not talking to you

715
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:17,920
anymore because I understood full on from then, his alignment and what he wanted to do and my,

716
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:23,840
and what I wanted to do was way on different fronts. They were in, and that's when I started

717
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:28,560
thinking about a lot of those other things, like those terms that I had said about everybody,

718
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,480
you're, you know, everybody's in your world and they're just privileged to be in it.

719
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,640
That sort of thing. You start thinking about all these things and go, oh my gosh, this is how he

720
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:43,040
is. He literally thinks this way. He's not, he wants that hidden agenda. Everybody's got a hidden,

721
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:48,560
no, he's got the hidden agenda. And so those are the things that were really like, oh man,

722
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:55,760
I got to get away from this guy. This guy is dangerous. And so that a long point to your

723
01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:01,760
answer or a long point to your question there, but yeah, that was everything that really led up to

724
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:08,480
that point. And once I got to that point, it really just, that's when I was like, oh man, this guy is

725
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:15,680
a textbook narcissist. He wants what he wants. He wants control the situation. He wanted me to be

726
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:21,520
at the same job that he was at because he had the pride of, I got him there. I got him to that point.

727
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:26,720
And not just that, but he had control the situation because he knew the other people at the place.

728
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:32,480
He had utter control of the situation by me leaving that pride is gone. The control is gone.

729
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:38,160
And so it's not about what I was doing. It's not about supporting his son. It's about what he,

730
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:44,000
what was on his end and that pride in the control. And a lot of a narcissist, they,

731
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:50,480
they will either treat you one or two ways. Most of the time, narcissists have to attach themselves

732
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:55,280
to people of power so that they can, and he would constantly do that. There were different

733
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:00,560
situations. Like there was a church that he attached himself to the senior pastor and was like,

734
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,160
he would joke. He was like, we're going to take over the church this and that. He called himself

735
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:08,640
Chancellor Palpatine. Like he called himself Chancellor Palpatine for like the Star Wars

736
01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:12,640
guy, right? Like he's like secretly kind of the puppet master before, you know,

737
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,040
anybody knew he was the puppet master behind the whole thing.

738
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:22,240
Yeah. He would, he would do that. And then narcissists, if they attach themselves to power,

739
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:27,600
but they can't control you, then they see you as a threat. So they're thinking of,

740
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:33,040
hey, are you a person that's going to either three groups, one, you're a person of power,

741
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:39,360
so you can help me to, are you someone that I can control or manipulate and loyal to me?

742
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:43,200
Or three, if you're neither one of those, you're a threat to me. And now I have to take you out

743
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:48,000
and I'm going to make up any lies that I can to take you out. I'm going to assassinate your character

744
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:54,960
and I will, because a lot of not all of them, but a lot of narcissists do have charisma and they do

745
01:06:54,960 --> 01:07:00,320
have, they're very believable. And so it's easy for them to be like, Oh yeah, did you hear Micah,

746
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:04,960
X, Y and Z, blah, blah, blah. And then other people are like, what? Like, I would have never

747
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:09,520
been like, yeah, but like this, that and the other. And so it's like, then people are like,

748
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:17,200
they, they are those puppet masters. And so it's, man, it's, it's hard because they're very dangerous

749
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:22,080
and very sneaky. And we've talked about this and you've talked about this with your therapist,

750
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:30,400
that if you are around a narcissist for prolonged periods of time, like, like what, I don't know

751
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:37,360
what the threshold is, like eight years plus, nine years, 10 years plus, then a, you start to develop

752
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:42,640
those narcissistic tendencies, but B, there's like something like mentally where you're just,

753
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:48,160
you know, that you just been so manipulated for so long, you just don't see it. And I like,

754
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:55,600
you know, I, I'm, I have come out of that being in a relationship with a narcissist before I met

755
01:07:55,600 --> 01:08:01,280
my wife and then to being around other narcissists. And I see their wise and I'm like, oh yeah, like

756
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,840
you have no idea. And it's like, I feel bad for you because you only believe what your spouse is

757
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,240
telling you. So you don't know any difference. So you think they're telling you the truth,

758
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:14,480
especially because these are the people who are supposed to love and protect you.

759
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:19,920
And they're also narcissists are very good. Most of them have very silver tongues, they're very

760
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:24,960
smooth, tongueed people to where they will say, listen, you're nothing without me, you're nowhere

761
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:31,440
without me. And so you really do feel like, Hey, if I come out of your umbrella, like I'm screwed,

762
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:38,000
like I have no shot at life. I don't, and you know, I, we're talking a lot about my father,

763
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:43,760
but we've had bosses like this, the bargain or the bootcoural guy that we're talking about before.

764
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:47,600
I forget what we called him, but our boss there was the same way. It's like, listen,

765
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:52,000
if you're not working here and you're not a lifer and you're like away from me, then you're

766
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:58,000
nothing. And like, and the thing is, it's hard when you experience one narcissist to not

767
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:04,880
full on buy into other narcissists because you already have, and especially when you grow up

768
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:11,520
in that environment, you already have that kind of hook in your mind, so to speak, to where you

769
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:16,240
sit here and go, well, maybe I'm not all that in the bag of chips. Like I think I am. And maybe

770
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:21,680
I'm not as good as I think I am. So maybe I should keep going with this, even though it's a bad

771
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:26,320
situation, but at least I'm protected, at least I'm protected and at least I'm loved and whatever,

772
01:09:26,320 --> 01:09:32,320
but you're really not, you're really not. It's all a facade. It is a facade. And that is like,

773
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:36,640
they didn't say it, but my ex-wife made me feel that way when I thought about like,

774
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,560
after we'd gone through the doors and we were like, still trying to like, you know, see if it

775
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:45,840
worked, like I was, the hopes were still like in there. And it was like, if I leave this situation,

776
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:51,200
then I'm going to, I'm not doing God's best for my life. No one's ever going to want me. No one's

777
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:56,800
ever going to love me. Like, no, I'm going to be like, I'm going to screw up God's plan for my entire

778
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:03,280
life. And that's how I thought. And it was just the narcissistic tendencies. Now, I want to ask

779
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:07,680
you a little bit about your situation. So we went through a lot of my situations and things like

780
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:12,960
that. And again, we could probably fill four or five episodes up with all of what we're going through.

781
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:20,480
But just want to talk about ex-wife, things like that. When did you start seeing, because I know

782
01:10:20,480 --> 01:10:26,560
that you saw when you moved out, right, of my parents situation, when did you start saying,

783
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,800
Hey, my ex-wife is having, is a narcissist and having narcissistic tendencies and treating me,

784
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:41,840
you know, and having that hindered the agenda as well. So I knew she treated me poorly, but I

785
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:48,000
thought I deserved it. You know what I mean? So I, so I fell into that trap of, because it was,

786
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:53,760
so I'll kind of try to give you a quick timeline, but if we go long, we go long. It's okay. So

787
01:10:54,880 --> 01:11:02,080
when we first got together, a lot of it was about control. And so she would, she did not like Micah,

788
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:08,240
right? So, um, and most people did like Micah. And I would, I would say there was no one that

789
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:14,160
like actively disliked you around that, even though you were like, yeah, kind of a lot.

790
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:20,000
I was very outgoing and I was still very much attention seeking and things like that. But

791
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:25,520
at the same time, Chris and I were a very good duo, right? I guess to say everybody knew we were

792
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:30,400
friends, everybody knew we were best friends. And I don't really remember anybody leading up to that

793
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:35,600
point being like, Micah is a problem and telling you like, Hey, I'm a problem. I mean, maybe they

794
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:40,800
didn't necessarily like my style and things like that. But typically I don't remember anybody being

795
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:45,200
like, okay, I don't like him and you being in friends together and things like that.

796
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:49,440
Yeah. And so a lot of it was she'd be like, Oh, well, I don't like when you hang around Micah,

797
01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:56,480
because when you hang around Micah, you act this way, like you act X way. When really it was me

798
01:11:56,480 --> 01:12:02,400
just like being myself. Cause even though I talked about like being in my shell, like me joking with

799
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:07,360
Micah and like laughing and like when I got in high school, I like, I was pretty much being myself.

800
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:11,680
And so she was like, I don't like that you're acting. Micah is a bad influence on you because

801
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:16,480
when you're around him, you, you act this way. And but she really just didn't like my, she didn't

802
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:24,320
like anybody really joking or even like teasing, like teasing her was like a big like, no, no, no.

803
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:30,080
So, so she was like, can I share a story? Like when y'all first started dating?

804
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:30,880
Yeah, go for it.

805
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:35,040
Share one or quick. So when he and he and his, when they just first started dating,

806
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:39,840
you know, before it got real serious, I remember being at our friend Fat Cat's house and there was

807
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:46,320
always again, I was, we were stupid kids at the time, 18, 19 years old. And I remember she called

808
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:50,080
and was like chewing them out. Like, where are you at? What are you doing? All this other stuff.

809
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:55,280
And one of the routines that I used to do is a quit and we were good little Christian boys.

810
01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:59,200
So of course this would kind of freak some people out, but I would go, Hey, Chris,

811
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:03,280
stop buying the cheap cigarettes and stuff like that. Like that was one of, do you remember

812
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:08,240
I used to say that all the time with people in the background? Oh my God, she'd lost it.

813
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:13,760
Like she lost it about the anyways, that was one of the things I remember a little stuff that it

814
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:19,120
would always turn into fights. It would always be like, well, and always it was, this was always

815
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:23,440
the thing. And this is what kind of like made me feel bad. It was like, Oh, well, if you were really

816
01:13:23,440 --> 01:13:28,560
a man of God, like you wouldn't be hanging around that you wouldn't be acting this way. Like the

817
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:33,040
men of like, I don't want to be with a man of God, like I'm looking for a man of God. And like,

818
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:37,040
if you're not going to be that, then I don't want to be with you. And it was like, it would attack

819
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:43,280
my character. And it was like, I was like, she controlled like who I hung out with, like I pretty

820
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:48,480
much had to spend like all my time with her all my free time. But like when it came to her, like,

821
01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:53,440
I was always like the second priority. Like I was always the sort of like school and choir and all

822
01:13:53,440 --> 01:13:58,400
that that came first. And then I was always on the back burner. So it was like, I don't like you

823
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:04,320
hanging around this person, that person, whatever. And I would get accused like all the time, like

824
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,880
all the time, like, why were you looking at that girl? And I was like, I'm not like she was like,

825
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:12,880
no, you were looking, do you know her? Like, I'm like, who are you talking about? Like, you know

826
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:17,040
who I'm talking about? Like stop trying to play dumb with me. Like it was that it was one of those

827
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:21,920
situations of like, dude, what are you talking about? So everything was a fight. I remember like,

828
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:29,360
there's those memes where it's like, that one guy who's always in an argument with his with his girl

829
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:33,280
when he's going to hang out with friends, like it would just be like anytime I would go out and

830
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:39,600
she wasn't there to like monitor me or track me or whatever it was, like, I couldn't have any

831
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:44,640
fun. Like I would get blown up. Like if I didn't text back like in like a couple minutes or so,

832
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:49,600
like, it was always like, who are you with? Like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just hanging

833
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:52,800
out with like, Oh, well, you're hanging out. Where are you going? You better not be going anywhere

834
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:58,000
bad or you better not be going to see this bad movie or that bad movie. Like she controlled like

835
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:04,800
what I what I watch. And so for me, I think the reason why I fell into it is because at the time,

836
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:11,760
I had not experienced that many girls who had been like interested in me. So like, she was interested

837
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:17,200
in me. And so it was kind of like, well, like, and I had the belief kind of like Mike and this

838
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:23,200
didn't come from what did come from her. But like, it was, I'm not good enough. I'm not good looking

839
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:30,000
enough. I'm not this and that. And like, there was that part where like, I had spent that time

840
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,480
where I did like was like, you know what, I'm not going to go to church, this and that. And so like

841
01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:41,360
when I did, it was kind of like, I trusted on what she defined as like a godly man and like,

842
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:46,880
how did that be my identity? So I'm like, if I'm making her upset or making her mad, then I'm not

843
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:54,000
doing my job as a godly man. So that's, that's what I thought. And she would do this thing of like,

844
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:58,560
you're not the same person you were. And she would like send me like screenshots of old texts that

845
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:02,960
I sent her when we were first dating. She was like, if you were really a man of God, like this is

846
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:08,880
when you are on fire for God, like I just missed that person. It was always about like, my potential

847
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:14,080
so it's like, you have the potential to be such a good godly man and do so many great things for

848
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:18,800
God. And like, you know, and so for me, I was like, man, I guess I'm really not being like,

849
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:24,000
and I would beat myself up. Like I'd get upset. It's like, man, like I did this, did that. So to

850
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:30,640
answer your question, I'm fast forwarding. So it was years of that and her family, her family would

851
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:36,080
always say like, it's just her being dramatic, like everyone in her family would say, Oh, she's

852
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:40,560
just being dramatic like this and that. And I should have listened to them, right? But she would

853
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:46,560
spend it like no one in my family understands me and they all choose to pick up, pick on me. Like

854
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:52,160
I'm the target of their jokes. And like, I wish my family would do like this and that. And so she

855
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:57,440
would always spend the family situation of like, it's their fault. They're targeting me. I'm the

856
01:16:57,440 --> 01:17:03,360
black sheep of my family. Nobody gets me. Let me put this in for two perspective for you guys. And

857
01:17:03,360 --> 01:17:08,560
some of you guys are not gonna like, you guys are not going to know what this is, but there's a movie

858
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:13,600
called Gone with the Wind. Okay. It's one of like the most famous move and the main character.

859
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:19,520
I hate that movie. Scarlett O'Hara is she is narcissistic. She is manipulative. Like she uses men

860
01:17:20,240 --> 01:17:25,040
basically to survive. And like she's like, she's a kind of a really terrible human being, like

861
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:30,320
really terrible for sure character. And so I remember watching that movie with her and she

862
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:35,360
never watched it. And most people like, yeah, like I hate Scarlett Scarlett's this and that.

863
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:39,600
And again, she was like, man, she was like, I really like Scarlett. She's just misunderstood.

864
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,520
Like she's like, I identify with her. She's just misunderstood. I'm not should have been my life.

865
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:49,600
But you know, it's so funny about that. I am we're not going to go all into that. But the

866
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:54,640
relationship that I had that I alluded to before my wife, the very first relationship that I had,

867
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:59,520
she loved that movie too. And it was the same exact. That was one of her favorite movies. And

868
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:04,880
she was like, Oh, I love Scarlett O'Hara. And she just misunderstood. And she had a lot of narcissistic

869
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:09,360
tendencies to we could dive in all her crap, but that would take forever. Yeah, it's the same thing

870
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:15,280
though. You know, and what's interesting is going back to the similarities between your ex-wife

871
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:21,120
and what my father did was it was a lot of the same thing is, well, I expected you to be a better

872
01:18:21,120 --> 01:18:26,080
man than this. And it was always attacking your manhood. It was always attacking your integrity,

873
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:31,360
character. And you know, even, you know, I was talking about the whole Madden example, where he

874
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:36,480
was like, you cheated at Madden when you were eight, it was they would always exploit those

875
01:18:36,480 --> 01:18:41,040
small things that were like character flaws, because we're all not perfect, right? We all make

876
01:18:41,040 --> 01:18:45,360
mistakes. There's all things that happen. And even as a kid, there's even things that you have to

877
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:50,000
learn and grow from. But those things are the things that they will attach themselves onto and

878
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:57,440
say, listen, you are not good and a terrible person because of this. And if you want help,

879
01:18:57,440 --> 01:19:01,040
you have to listen to what I'm telling you. And if you don't listen to what I'm telling you,

880
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:07,280
you are a terrible person. And it is very easy to believe because in a lot of situations, and I

881
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:11,600
knew your ex-wife and things like that, you know, and at first I did like her. I at first, I did

882
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:15,600
like her until I started seeing the way that she was treating you and the way that it was changing.

883
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:20,800
But it seemingly because what I say she was successful, no, but she was in school, she was

884
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:25,840
in choir. She was a very prominent member of the church that we had at the time. She like, if I'm

885
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:30,000
not mistaken, she was like involved in Sunday school, involved in the youth group and things like

886
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:36,160
that. And so you're sitting here going, okay, this is a godly person, seemingly you would think, okay,

887
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:41,200
this is a good example to follow after because she is doing all the right things. And then the same

888
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:46,800
thing with my father, it's like, okay, he has a really good job. He came from nothing, right? He

889
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:50,960
came from the middle of nowhere and came from nothing. And now he's got money and status and

890
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:58,000
success and all this stuff. But again, all of that is a facade. And all of that is it's kind of like,

891
01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:02,320
I remember the my cousin Vinny part where it's like, they could show you the cards and how it

892
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:06,960
has straight edges and how it has all this stuff. But if you look at it, it's all it's thin as a

893
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:11,920
playing card. And it's like, because it's not true, it's not there. And it's the same thing. It's

894
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:16,560
like, they'll show you every little thing. And it's very easy to go, okay, these are solid bricks,

895
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:21,040
like these are solid bricks that build a house. But it's really just as thin as that playing

896
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:26,320
card, there's not anything that is actually a substance there. And I think, and let me ask

897
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:31,840
you this question, as you started getting away from that situation, was that really when you

898
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:38,640
started seeing more? Because for me personally, I would say that being in the situation, it was so

899
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:43,360
hard to see out of the situation. Like even if there was people who were on the outside looking

900
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:48,000
in and saying, Hey, man, he's not treating you right. Or hey, that girlfriend is not treating

901
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:53,920
you right. Or hey, that boss is not treating you right. It's like, well, yeah, I get you. But

902
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:58,320
you don't really understand because they're just trying to help me out and they're trying to make

903
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:02,720
me successful. And they're trying to help me do these things. Was that a lot of the same feelings

904
01:21:02,720 --> 01:21:08,640
that you had as well? Yeah, so a lot of I can go into many stories, but fast forwarding it. So

905
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:13,840
when we're having our issues, right, they were like, okay, we're gonna go to you're gonna go to

906
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:19,680
counseling, she picked the counselor right because it was recommended. And so what happened is we

907
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:24,560
only ever went to one and this will tell you, I will not say the counselor's name, but the counselor

908
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:31,440
I had, she should have her license removed because there was only one time where she

909
01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:36,880
counseled us together and she counseled us separately while we were going through this.

910
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:42,160
And what was crazy was and I knew narcissistic tendency is I got to get the story out first.

911
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:48,080
So she actually had the visit with her first, right? The very first session. The counselor did.

912
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:52,480
And so I remember when I went to my session a couple of days later, I was kind of like sharing

913
01:21:52,480 --> 01:21:58,240
like, okay, this is what I'm experiencing. This is how she made me feel. And she stopped, she said,

914
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:03,680
well, it's so easy to focus on what other people are doing. You should focus on what you're doing

915
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:09,760
and take accountability for that. And it was like, okay. And so I remember and I feel like they were

916
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:16,080
working together, bro, like they were like working together because even, you know, when we were

917
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:20,640
talking after these sessions and stuff, my ex wife would tell me she was like, yeah, well, I talked

918
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:27,040
with our counselor. I'm not going to say her name. And she said that you, you are a closet

919
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:32,000
narcissist. You're a narcissist that doesn't realize they're a narcissist. And so that

920
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:37,440
projected onto you. And like, even now, still, there are times where that tries to pop in my head

921
01:22:37,440 --> 01:22:44,080
where it's like your closet. So she said the counselor said that the way for us to save our

922
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:52,560
marriage was to get a divorce. And so the only time we met, we met one time before we met a

923
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:58,800
second time and the second time was to sign divorce papers. So, which was a week later. So we, we

924
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:04,000
met and I remember just like sharing like, Hey, like, I poured my heart out, like I poured my

925
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:10,480
heart out. And as cold as like my ex wife said, well, I've heard you say all this before. And

926
01:23:10,480 --> 01:23:19,200
that was it. Like no, like, I was like, holy crap. And so it took me a while to go back to a second

927
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:23,840
counselor because the first counselor I had like a trauma thing, I was like, okay, if I have a

928
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:29,680
counselor, I'm gonna, and he helped me understand like, he was like, dude, that's not normal. He was

929
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:35,840
like, you don't deserve to be treated that way. He was like, this is not normal. Like that doesn't

930
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:43,360
like who made her the end all be all authority on who you are. Like, yeah, do you have flaws?

931
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:47,600
Yeah, but that's not who you are. And he was like, just from meeting with you, I can tell

932
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:52,560
that you're not that way because you have this and he started naming all the ways like, I know

933
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:56,080
that's what it counts like a good counselor supposed to do is supposed to help affirm you

934
01:23:56,080 --> 01:24:01,120
and supposed to help you. But like he said, you are literally like a good person. Like,

935
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:06,640
and when you said that like it made me and so when in those moments I would get in those fights,

936
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:11,760
I'd be like, because we've talked about it, Mike and I have talked about where it would be go back

937
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:18,080
a fourth where it was like, okay, I've tasted my freedom. But I'm also still feeling like, okay,

938
01:24:18,080 --> 01:24:23,280
God wants me to make my marriage work. But my marriage was over, right? She was the one who

939
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:28,800
chose not to be married anymore. And so I said, I got to do everything I can to fight for my marriage.

940
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:35,280
So I was like, okay, but then when I would do that, and then she would go back to the way that she

941
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:41,040
was before I was like, hold up, wait a second, like, I shouldn't be treated like this. I'm bringing

942
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:47,520
things up from six years ago, like, okay, but like, smooth on a different person now.

943
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:57,520
And so then whenever I would stand up, it was like a, well, your anger is getting out of control,

944
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:02,320
or I'm not going to talk to you if I'm going to be disrespected. And I'd be like, and I'd be like,

945
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:08,720
you know what? No, so that's when I started to see like, because my mom, my mom said,

946
01:25:09,440 --> 01:25:13,440
you know, during all that, she was like, yeah, she's a narcissist. And that's when the term first

947
01:25:13,440 --> 01:25:19,760
real, the term narcissists and toxic was first starting to be used before people were using it.

948
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:24,800
And I was like, yeah, like, no, like, yeah, I think this is right, because people like people

949
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:29,360
would tell me all the, all the time, like, hey, like, she, you know, she's kind of an issue. Like,

950
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:33,520
and I was like, Oh, well, people just think she's dramatic, but you don't know her like,

951
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:37,760
you just don't understand her. Yeah. And so it's one of those things like people tell you,

952
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:44,080
but until you see for yourself, you're like, hold up, like, and everything with her, it was always

953
01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:47,920
someone else's fault, like with her working in the school is like, Oh, yeah, this person,

954
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:53,040
they've got a heart issue because this and that, and I've got a problem out to get me out to get

955
01:25:53,040 --> 01:26:00,240
me because of this or that. And yeah, and everybody that was competition because she was a singer.

956
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:04,560
So like anybody that was competition, it was like, Oh, they're, they're bad. They may be a good

957
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:08,480
singer, but they don't have a good heart. And this and that, like I wouldn't do it this way. And so

958
01:26:08,480 --> 01:26:15,040
it's like, yeah, you just look back and you have all those things. And you know, so Mike, Mike,

959
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:18,240
do you have any more questions on that? Cause I was going to kind of shift gears. Do you have

960
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:23,120
any more questions? Yeah, I was, I was thinking about shifting gears as well. The only question

961
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:27,680
that I had, cause I was going to wrap it up something that I think too, I didn't realize how

962
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:33,200
much content we had on here and how much we had to say, because I definitely think we needed to

963
01:26:33,200 --> 01:26:37,920
part two and talk about some things in a part two. I don't know when that part two will happen,

964
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:43,280
maybe a few episodes from now, but I definitely think we need a part two on this. But personally,

965
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:49,920
my last question was going to be, okay, so say that we have somebody who's watching this episode

966
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:56,880
and they're like, holy crap, I'm with a narcissist or these tendencies are exactly what I see in

967
01:26:57,440 --> 01:27:02,480
whatever relationship capacity that you have with another person. What would you say,

968
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:09,760
how would you say is the best way to either combat that and get out of that or

969
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:15,760
and heal from it? I mean, that's, that's what, what would you say? I know that's a really

970
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:20,400
loaded question. But what do you think? That's hard because, and it's funny, this is why we're

971
01:27:20,400 --> 01:27:26,160
friends because I have as a question I was going to ask you. So I think a lot of it is you, depending

972
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:34,080
on who it is in your family, right? For you as your dad, right? If you're married to one, I'm not

973
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:43,120
saying get a divorce. Okay, hear me out. Okay, but you also, I would recommend a counselor,

974
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:47,440
you need to talk this through and see, Hey, is this person really a narcissist because everyone

975
01:27:47,440 --> 01:27:51,840
is labeled a narcissist, right? Like people use that and people use that as they get out of jail

976
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:56,800
free car. So I would say narcissist will use that as a get out of jail free card. They'll call

977
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:01,680
other people narcissists. These are kind of tendencies that you can see with a narcissist.

978
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:08,960
Do they affirm you as a person or are they constantly trying to tear you down? Is everything,

979
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:16,960
when you bring up accountability, do they deflect or do they take ownership of it? Because a narcissist

980
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:22,640
will always deflect and say, you're the problem. But a person who really and truly says, you know

981
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:30,560
what? I did mess up. I'm sorry. Now, narcissists can have the trick of, I'm sorry, but you may

982
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:37,680
need to react this way. So then they're turning it back on you. I would also say narcissists also

983
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:43,360
tend to try to control and manipulate situations. And if you're in close proximity with one,

984
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:49,760
they will try to control and dictate who you can and can't hang out with. So ask people around you,

985
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:54,480
like ask your friends, if all your friends and your family are saying, yeah, that person is

986
01:28:54,480 --> 01:29:02,240
like kind of a narcissist. Then that's probably true. But I would say counseling man and you,

987
01:29:02,240 --> 01:29:08,240
the thing with narcissists, full blown narcissist, it's going to take an act of God for them to

988
01:29:08,240 --> 01:29:13,120
change. It is going to take a heart change that only the Holy Spirit can provide. And so you can

989
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:19,360
pray for them. But at the same time, narcissists are very dangerous. So you're going to have to

990
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:25,760
draw boundaries. Okay. So if it's with a family member, you're going to say, okay,

991
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:31,840
maybe not cut off the whole relationship because, but say, Hey, these are our boundaries.

992
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:37,680
And if that person crosses your boundaries, cut them off. Like they have a related, you say,

993
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:41,680
Hey, here's a line and they keep stepping over the line. They're not going to, because that's

994
01:29:41,680 --> 01:29:46,560
something with narcissists, they're going to test you and say, Hey, like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

995
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:52,240
you said there were boundaries, but that doesn't apply to me. Because right. So I don't know.

996
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:58,480
It's kind of like case by case situation. Some time you're just going to have to put it on

997
01:29:59,280 --> 01:30:06,800
distance. Counseling helps. I mean, drawing boundaries is a huge one. So what would you say?

998
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:13,040
So I want to piggyback everything that you said is 100% correct. The other thing that I would

999
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:18,080
say, and I think this is the same thing just kind of rephrased. If you're in a situation and you

1000
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:24,160
want to look at these situations and say it is a 50 50 relationship, if you're not having a symbiotic

1001
01:30:24,160 --> 01:30:30,240
relationship. And what I mean by symbiotic is everybody is giving the same amount of effort,

1002
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:37,680
love, support, caring, both ways. If you're not having that, if it's literally and because what

1003
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:42,640
will happen in a lot of these situations and every narcissistic relationship that I've been in,

1004
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:47,840
is they will tell you, Hey, I'm giving your part. In fact, I'm giving more than what you're giving,

1005
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:53,280
but really and truly you're the one working the hardest. You're the one giving 110% and they're

1006
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:58,080
giving negative 10. All they are telling you is that you're the problem and that you need to work

1007
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:05,040
harder. That is a clear sign that Hey, something is wrong. They keep moving the goalposts for you to

1008
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:11,840
earn their love or earn their affection or earn their praise. And that is again, why we're friends

1009
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:17,600
because the next point that I was going to say, if the love is conditional, if the love is conditional,

1010
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:22,400
and you know, this goes beyond narcissism, like there are other people who have conditional love

1011
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:27,840
too. So this is on that same front, but if the love is conditional, right? Okay, you need to do

1012
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:35,040
this or I'm not giving you this. That is not true love. That is not true love. Like, yeah, they may

1013
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:39,600
love the idea of you, but a lot of what they're loving the idea of is the fact that either they

1014
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:44,880
can control you or what they can get out of you. That is literally all that it is. And so if you're

1015
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:50,560
finding yourselves in those situations, I think a lot of those are the biggest keys of seeing.

1016
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:55,520
And that's what I saw was Hey, these relationships are not symbiotic. It is not a two way street is

1017
01:31:55,520 --> 01:32:00,560
a one way street. I am literally doing all the work and you know, again, going back to the whole

1018
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:06,160
telephone call, and my father never called me. I called him, right? And I was the one who had to

1019
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:11,600
call him. He would text me and be like, call me. It was always you have to be the one to take the

1020
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:17,360
actions. You have to be the one to do these things. And then you're still the problem at the end of

1021
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:22,160
the day. I think the biggest thing if you find yourselves in those situations, and this is way

1022
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:27,440
easier said than done way easier said than done from somebody who has gone through it and has

1023
01:32:27,440 --> 01:32:34,320
stepped away from this scenario. It is incredibly hard. You have to find a way to get some sort of

1024
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:39,280
space like Chris was talking about with the boundaries that is you set the boundaries,

1025
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:44,560
right? That's step one, you set the boundaries and say, Hey, this is the level that I'm comfortable

1026
01:32:44,560 --> 01:32:49,920
with you cross this line. It's not good. That is putting the ball in their court. If you put the

1027
01:32:49,920 --> 01:32:55,040
ball in their court and you tell them, Hey, this is the boundary that I've said, and they supersede

1028
01:32:55,040 --> 01:32:58,880
that and say, I don't really care about your boundary. I don't really care about what you think.

1029
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:04,560
And you're the problem for putting a boundary up. It's time to recede even further back. Keep them

1030
01:33:04,560 --> 01:33:10,080
at arms distance because now they're showing you, Hey, I don't care about you. I don't care about

1031
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:14,880
because anybody and this is what I learned from my therapist. This is what I've learned. Even my

1032
01:33:14,880 --> 01:33:19,040
grandmother has told me this and you know, we have our own thing. But the thing is, it's like,

1033
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:25,440
if you have a relationship that is worth any sort of value and they value the relationship,

1034
01:33:25,440 --> 01:33:30,480
if you put a boundary in place, say, I don't want you to go anywhere past this point. I don't want

1035
01:33:30,480 --> 01:33:35,440
you like, for instance, I talked to my family and I was like, listen, I'm having problems with my

1036
01:33:35,440 --> 01:33:40,480
parents. I'd rather not talk about it is a problem between me and them. We're not talking about it.

1037
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:46,880
The majority of my family was like, I honor and respect that because they want to keep the relationship.

1038
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:53,040
I'll even give another example. There was a, and one of the things that blew my mind back in the

1039
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:58,080
day was we had across the street neighbors who were lesbians, right? And for religious folks,

1040
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:04,480
that is huge, right? Especially nowadays, it's no big deal. But for old school people, like we

1041
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:10,080
were, that was a really big deal. And so I met there, one of the ladies' mothers. And I remember

1042
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:15,280
sitting there talking with her and she was Southern Baptist, very traditional Southern Baptist,

1043
01:34:15,280 --> 01:34:20,640
very hardcore, but she loved her daughter and still spent time with her daughter, loved daughter's

1044
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:27,040
wife, all this stuff, right? And I remember asking her like, how, because all of my family's

1045
01:34:27,040 --> 01:34:32,160
experience and a lot of things, it's like, if I turn out to be gay, oh my God, I'd be ostracized,

1046
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:36,880
they wouldn't love me. It'd be, I'd be out way over here, right? And so how did you get to that

1047
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:40,960
point? And she says, well, I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I believe that they're going to

1048
01:34:40,960 --> 01:34:46,080
hell. But at the same time, I love my daughter enough to where I want to have the relationship.

1049
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:50,240
And that's the way that she wants to live. I've already told her I don't agree with what it is.

1050
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:55,360
But I told her once, she knows how I feel. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that I love her

1051
01:34:55,360 --> 01:34:59,680
any less, and then I'm not going to have a relationship with her. And that's the key difference.

1052
01:35:00,240 --> 01:35:06,800
It's, are they going to put you out here and say, no, and have that condition in place of you put a

1053
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:11,120
boundary here, and you're living your life and whatever, and I'm going to throw you out over

1054
01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:15,840
here until you do what I want you to do. Or are they going to say, Hey, I disagree with what

1055
01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:20,320
you're doing, but I love and support you. And I wish you wouldn't. But at the same time, that's

1056
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:25,440
not going to affect the way that I treat you. That's a huge thing for me. Now, I will have to

1057
01:35:25,440 --> 01:35:29,920
follow up with this because with narcissists, everything is a game. So make sure you give

1058
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:34,800
yourself that free space, but also make sure you don't get sucked back in because you can put up

1059
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:40,800
that boundary and they will appear to change. But really and truly, if they can get you back into

1060
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:47,440
their clutches, they'll do anything. They'll be nice or show you a little bit of change enough

1061
01:35:47,440 --> 01:35:51,840
for you to be like, okay, I can let them back in. Yeah. And when you're back to turn, it's like,

1062
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:56,880
Oh, they snapped right back. That happened. That happened to me where it was like, Oh, yeah, like,

1063
01:35:56,880 --> 01:36:01,200
maybe they've changed, but then it's like, hold up, wait, they go back to them. They get you.

1064
01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:06,880
And it's once they get you in, it's not that much harder to get out. It's that whole thing about,

1065
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:10,800
you know, how it talks about in the Bible, God breaks you free of the chains and, you know,

1066
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:15,120
you get back into it. It comes back sevenfold. It really does. I mean, it's so much harder to

1067
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:21,200
get back out of it after you're back in it. I think a lot of that is, and how to combat that as

1068
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:26,960
well. Again, don't say too much. You put those boundaries in place. Bank those boundaries very

1069
01:36:26,960 --> 01:36:31,760
simple. Don't tell them the intent behind the boundaries because if you tell them the intent

1070
01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:36,000
behind the boundaries, they will twist that and go, okay, I know what they're looking for.

1071
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:41,520
I know what they're looking for. And so now I will give them what they're looking for to get back in

1072
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:47,440
that situation and go, okay, because there's a lot of situations that I've been like, you know what,

1073
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:52,880
I'm going to keep it very discreet. I'm not going to say anything. And they end up showing their

1074
01:36:52,880 --> 01:36:57,520
hand. They end up showing their hand and go, okay, we haven't changed at all. And so if you give them

1075
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:02,080
too much information, that's what gets very hard is if you give them too much information, they

1076
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:07,200
can really, it's almost like a chameleon, they can change their color to be like, oh no, I'm in

1077
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:12,240
alignment with you and I want to have this whole thing. But all it is is about control. The other

1078
01:37:12,240 --> 01:37:17,120
thing and the last thing that I'm going to say because we are way over time is you do not want

1079
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:23,760
to give them any sort of ultimatum. Do not give a narcissist ultimatum. I've seen that happen

1080
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:30,160
multiple times. They view that as a challenge. Okay, you don't ever want to talk to me ever again.

1081
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:36,080
Challenge. Now I'm going to get you back. Now I'm going to get you back. And so they will fight

1082
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:41,840
everything because that's a source of pride. That is a weird sick thing that's like you were out.

1083
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:46,720
And now you're back in. Now you're my trophy. I got you back. Look what I did. I'm in control of

1084
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:52,400
you. I got the hook in your mind. And so you have to be very careful about these people. And again,

1085
01:37:52,400 --> 01:37:56,880
we really need to part two. We really need to part two. Yeah, maybe next week or two weeks after.

1086
01:37:56,880 --> 01:38:00,480
But yeah, going on, Micah and Chris's therapy session.

1087
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:07,280
Of narcissism and all the crap we've dealt with. That helps someone. And so thank you guys for

1088
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:14,320
listening. Speaking of aviation and Micah being a prodigy pilot at two years old. Go check out

1089
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:19,360
Trash Travel. He's got a lot of aviation stuff. He's coming up with some really good ideas. He told

1090
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:22,720
me about them. I'm not going to share with them. You guys are just going to have to watch for them

1091
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:27,280
and go subscribe. Yeah, man. Over at Trash Can Travel and over here at the Trash Can Network,

1092
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:31,840
or you can search at the Donut Box podcast and come see your gorgeous faces. If you're not seeing

1093
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:38,960
us already on YouTube, if you're ever on Spotify. And again, that is D O U G H in UT Box podcast.

1094
01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:45,680
And we're, we're really rocking and rolling. I'm enjoying, you know, being on camera. I was

1095
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:50,880
really nervous about doing it before. Kind of because the narcissist in life and some of the

1096
01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:55,680
things that have gone on before, but at the same time, I'm really enjoying being on camera. I'm

1097
01:38:55,680 --> 01:39:01,760
enjoying this aspect of things. And so come check us out over there. Trash Can Travel is, is really

1098
01:39:01,760 --> 01:39:06,480
got some great stuff coming up, you know, in some really good videos. Go check that out as well.

1099
01:39:06,480 --> 01:39:11,760
But, you know, we really love and appreciate you guys. We love our fans out there. We're growing

1100
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:16,720
ever so steadily and I'm super excited the direction that we're going. And again, kind of like Chris

1101
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:21,760
said, I really hope this helps somebody, even if this helped one person in their situation,

1102
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:26,720
understand the situation, maybe get out of their narcissistic situation. I'm happy for you. If

1103
01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:31,360
that is what ends up happening from this, I really hope so. And I do firmly believe that

1104
01:39:31,360 --> 01:39:36,720
there's somebody out here who can use that to this information and help you. So, you know,

1105
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:40,800
please, if you're hearing this and you're like, man, this really resonates in my heart, you know,

1106
01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:46,320
listen to what we have said and, you know, take the lessons that we have gone through and try

1107
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:50,960
to not go through as hard of times because everything that we've said has come out of

1108
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:56,080
really hard experiences. So, you know, we love you guys. That's pretty much all I got to say.

1109
01:39:56,080 --> 01:40:01,200
You can do it. You can get out of that situation and have my pastor Jedi power. So,

1110
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:05,920
drop in the comments and you can text here too. No, I'm just kidding. All right. Well,

1111
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:11,120
it's one or two, one or two. It's time for the Starship to take it. So, I'm Chris.

1112
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:17,120
And this is it. We'll see you later.