Hey everyone, Asa here with RSS.com. In today's episode, we're chatting with Talib Jasir,
founder of Afros and Audios. We'll be chatting about the organization, its community, the
upcoming podcast festival, and so much more. Enjoy the show.
Alrighty. Okay, well, welcome Talib to the show. I'm so excited you could be here. How
are you today?
I'm great. Thank you, Ashley.
So tell me a little bit about your organization and how you got into the podcasting space.
Sure. So in 2017, I created a very, very short, limited, round-com series called The Fussings
Until One of Us is Dead. It's a fiction series. And I didn't, at that time, it was something
that I had been introduced to audio, radio dramas back in the day. You know, Ralphie
sitting in front of the radio on the Christmas story. And it's kind of like my first initiation
where I was just like, wow, he's sitting there listening to a story and he's so invested
in all of this. And that piqued my interest. And then as a teenager, I would be sitting
in the back of my mother's car on the way to school, what have you. And there was always
this, it's called Rustpar Morning Show. And they had this very short, I would say it was
about 60 second, maybe two minute clip daily, which was a soap opera. And I literally hated
this thing. It was audio, you know, and you could use your imagination to see everything
that was happening. They were very, very skilled at that and getting these characters and these
environments and everything across an audio platform and just intrigued me. And so it
was something I wanted to do for many years. But, you know, like most humans, I didn't
know what to do. So I did nothing at all for several years. And one day I involved my
self into kind of a program to help me get out of my own way, to start thinking of myself
as the creative that I actually am instead of trying to hide behind curtains. And so
one of the things that they asked was what kind of goals do you have and what would you
like to create in this course of 90 days? And I put the audio drama on there because
it was something I'd wanted to do for years, but I just couldn't get myself off the starting
block. And so immediately I wanted to say, you know what, let's just take that off because
I don't think I can do it. And I was challenged to stick with it. And so it literally took
the last month of that 90 days for me to cast, produce it, publish it and all these things.
And I got it done. And so that was something that, again, because I didn't know what to
do and I know where to start, it prompted me to one, two, one, see more black creators
creating audio dramas. And 2017 is not what it looks like now in 2023. It's a lot of folks,
but it wasn't then. And so I wanted to create a space where I could not only create community
and resources and support, but I can also encourage people to join and do the same.
And again, wasn't what it's like today. So 2017, 2018, I established Afros in Audio and
a very niche opportunity. And 2018, 2019, nothing happened. Not one thing. So I was
getting ready because I'm a creative, throw it all away. Like I do pick it up, put it
down, say I tried, it didn't work, moving on. But for some reason, Afros in Audio just
seemed like permanent. It seemed permanent for me. It didn't seem like something that
I wanted to just stop. And so I reached out to a friend of mine who was in podcasts and
said, you know, I really want to keep this going, but I don't know where, how to pivot.
And he said, you know, you should think about events. And Tuesday, and people have heard
me say this, I think he met a two hour meetup. It was a 20 minute meeting and I left there
saying, okay, I'm going to create a two day conference for black podcasts, creatives,
and audio professionals. And that's how it started. In 2019, we had our first conference
in Brooklyn, New York in person. And then COVID happened and we had to pivot very prematurely,
not really having that as a thought. The first conference was hybrid. It was live streamed
and in person, but it was never intended to be a virtual only conference. And so 2020,
2021 virtual. And then we just were able to have an in person again, a hybrid conference
this past October in Philly, Pennsylvania.
So okay, you mentioned the, the challenge and how it kind of lit a fire under you. So
I'm curious, like, do you feel like that was the same case whenever you went to that meetup
and they just gave you that idea and you're like, okay, now I'm locked in, now I got to
do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm a firm believer in anybody that, you know, knows me and has
worked with me over the years. One, this community was built because I was seeking it. Right.
So I consider myself as much as I am the leader and the founder and the CEO, still very much
a part of the membership of what it is that we're creating. I'm learning every day from
the folks around me. And I'm hoping that I'm, you know, supporting others and understanding
podcasting and all that. But this was just a singular meeting with, with a friend of
mine that I just kind of asked. And I, if I say I'm going to do it, then that's what
has to happen. So there were times where it was that Homer Simpson, Jeff, where he goes
back into the bushes. Like, what was I thinking? I've never done anything at this scale before.
I know my intention is there, but what was I thinking? I don't know how to do this. But
yeah, once I say it out of my mouth, it's got to happen. So if other people hear me.
So, so yeah, it absolutely lit a fire to make sure that I showed up in the way in which
the responsibility is to show up for other people and to create a conference that provides
the support and resources that our community deserves.
So whenever you announced it, what was the like first thing that happened? Like what
was the experience like? Were people excited or was there a lot of please come to my thing?
Of course there's, there's still a please come to my thing. Because one of the, one
of the issues is the access to marketing engines and funding and that sort of thing. And so
I consider ourselves, Afro as an audio, the little engine that could, because despite
it all it happens every year. And, and, and there's challenges, there's challenges with
marketing is challenges for funding it because it's expensive to, to run a conference, especially
a two day conference. And so just to answer your question, the first thing I did was I
reached out to people who are already in this space. A lot of times people tend to create
and being a public policy graduate and social justice and all these sorts of things. A lot
of times people create saying, this is what I think you need. And this is what I think
you want. But we have to step back when we are in the business of building something
with talking to the folks who are already doing the work and who already know their
pain points and the things that they need in order to be successful. And so that's my
first step. I sat and I talked with people who already had communities based around their
podcasts, directories, that sort of thing. And then I organized a team to support me
and pulling off the first conference.
Well with something that big of a scale, I mean, like for instance, the guy who started
podcast movement, Jared Easley, we had him on the show and he was saying that, you know,
that first year there was no profit. There was, in fact, he said that it was only recently
they became profitable. And that's not why you start it. You start it because you're
building the community, you start a podcast, you're creating a community. Would you say
that that was kind of the situation you felt like you were in?
Absolutely. I'm still in it. Yeah, I've yet to and it's just transparent and I'm fine
with saying it, although I'm sure that people couldn't even fathom it, but I haven't profited
from it one time yet. And so if that was the point, then we would have stopped year one,
you know. So I know that with business, you know, I have the acumen to know that things
scale and it's the work that we do and the continuous work that we do and the consistency.
So we aren't there yet, but year after year, our support grows, our resources grow and
the more we have, the more we can provide and give to our community. And so that's the
goal.
Whenever it feels tough though, what keeps you going?
The people. When we have the conference, those two days really ignite and validate why we're
here and more so why I'm here in the first place. So it's a struggle, you know, year
after year, it's one of those things where I do contemplate quitting. I do and not because
it's not working, quote unquote, it's that I have limited resources and those limited
resources make it very challenging and it gives truth to the idea of the unequal playing
field and the value add that people don't, people, when I say people, I would say companies,
businesses, what have you, invest in communities and or missions that are not something that's
aligned with them, whether they have a blind spot of the importance of it and or just don't
see the value in it. And so it's something that is a constant, I guess, wall we're up
against, but something that I'm committed to making happen regardless of all of those
obstacles that are just there and it's not just there for my conference, it's there for
podcast movement as well. We're still educating people on the power of podcasting and the
opportunity and the viability of it. And so it takes all of us to make sure that we, that
is our message, that this is a viable industry, it's an evolving industry and we all have
to do our part.
There's something so beautiful though about being driven by a purpose and it seems like,
you know, you're very much driven by a purpose. And so even though you may not be getting
the revenue yet, there's so much like profitability in terms of community and getting to know
people. And so I'm curious, what exactly is for anybody who's listening who doesn't know,
what exactly is the mission of your organization?
So our mission, Afros and Audio Podcast Festival is really, I had a few goals when I started.
One of them was that the event happens, it's great, we all have a good time, but I really
was committed to the day after, the impact, the connections, the networking, the ability
to continue to work together, support one another and really, again, understand that
it's going to take all of us to make sure that the podcast industry stays alive. There
is no industry without podcasts. So that makes the content creators some of the most powerful
people in the room. And so really to understand that also that people who are contributing
to this industry that wouldn't exist without us get to be a part of the decision making
and the success of it and really wanting folks to understand that.
The other thing is, again, I'm a community builder who was seeking community. And so
I know that part of it. I know the create from the creative space. I know from the organizer
space, I know from all these spaces, how important community when it's done with integrity and
done right and not based on capitalism and trying to poach from our members, but so that
our community has access to one another, not that creating a community so that I have access
to them. That is the mission. It really is to create a space where people feel safe,
feel seen, feel championed, but also get the opportunity to grow their skills and up level
the quality of their podcast and their content and have the resources and support year round
that again, they deserve and is the true connector for sustainability.
Well, in terms of podcasting itself as a medium, in your opinion, what is the value, the actual
value of starting a podcast in the first place?
Well there's so many. There's so many in my opinion. I think that podcasting definitely
has an entrepreneurial spirit about it. And that is just taking the initiative to stand
on whatever it is that your messages or your voice is and being willing to put that out
in the world. So it's output, it's a production, right? And so just the ability that a creative
has to create something, complete something and stay with something is it's in and of
itself as a fellow creative, an accomplishment.
That's true.
So that in and of itself, but there's also for me, and this is my own personal message
and I actually just got off a call before this where I say that I have this conference
and this community, but it's all a front, it's all a guise for people to really get
that we are actually laying down a record of our lived experiences. We're laying down
a record of our own perspectives. And it's something that will be a historical aspect
of it. It's something that becomes a resource for future generations and for understanding
where people are and were in this century, in this decade and since podcasts started.
So I think it's a personal mission for me. And that is based on our history of oral tradition
and storytelling. And so we have to, I think that podcasting and our stories are much like
language when you have a mother tongue and it's not being passed down to your generations.
Once that elder passes with that language, it's gone from that family. And so our stories
are the same way.
So in a way, our podcasts are our time capsule.
It really is.
I've never really heard of it put that way, but putting it that way, like that's really
beautiful. So where do you see the future of podcasting going?
I see it going the way that it's been going, but I also see that it's evolving. And again,
I think that for once in the creator's life that we understand how powerful that we are.
Again, the industry doesn't exist without podcasts. And so with that said, we have to
have some autonomy and some agency over how this industry benefits the content creator.
And so one of the things that we're working really hard to do is empower the content creator
to know that how this works, how this industry shapes our listenership and all of this. We
have a responsibility around that to make sure that one, we are increasing active podcasts
in the global market by black creatives and people of color in general, but also that
we say, I have a podcast, so that we can make sure that other people are we bringing that
listenership and that data that then informs advertising and all these sort of things.
Again, I just believe that the content creator has the power to really shape this. And that's
what I'm hoping happens for the future of podcasts.
I hope so too. I hope that more advertisers start to recognize just how important it is
for smaller creators and even medium and bigger ones. But what's interesting is I've started
to see just how many celebrity podcasts are starting to come out. And I hope that they
don't start overlooking the smaller creator because yes, there are more than 5 million
podcasters at this point in 2023, but of those only 400,000 are active. And when you compare
that to the 80 million or 800 million, I can't remember how many it is websites, we're still
like small fish in a big pod. So we have this opportunity to really get our messages out
there. So what would you say to the person who's thinking about starting a podcast, but
hasn't quite done it yet?
Well, one, I think that most of our societies, whether you are American or another society,
it's a deliberate act to believe that there's to operate in a scarcity. And what I mean
by that is that, okay, there's already 5000 podcasts on how to make money and podcasts
on this or that. But there's only you with your voice and your perspective and your experience.
And so really do that. People think about the podcast industry being saturated. It's
not at all. You just gave a great statistic about how many state remain active. And that's
one of the some of the work that we're doing to make sure that there's sustainability and
providing that support and those resources. So, you know, YouTube is saturated, but that
doesn't stop the million people who are going to upload a video today. And so we've got
to really get out of a space of there's too many of them or too much of something. We
all get to create and express in whatever way and you will find your audience. There's
this there's that opportunity for that. And so for people who want to start start, that's
how you finish. I'm a life coach to creators and entrepreneurs as well. So it's 2015 certified
and that again, that was my mission to support creators and entrepreneurs of just getting
out of their own way and understanding that their talent and what makes them great and
what makes them great communicators and what have you is really not about that one person
or the individual that's creating it. It's about all the people that are going to now
see possibility in you and in your message and in the perspectives and experiences that
you have. So it's actually important work to start a podcast and to make sure that whatever
it is that's inside is able to come out. And I think podcasting is a perfect medium for
that because it also for me is a great piece of content that becomes a cornerstone. So
many things can happen from a podcast. There are so many ways in which you can go, whether
it's becoming a resource for different organizations or creating your own business or becoming
you know, an expert on whatever topic that you have and speaking engagements and all
these sort of things or building a business. There's so many ways in which that podcast
can become an extension of who you already are and what you're already creating and or
those goals. So I think this medium is something that will remain and it's important that people
jump in and get into it.
I agree completely. And you're reminding me of a quote from Marie Forleo. She always ends
her MarieTV episodes with the world needs that gift that only you have. And it kind
of speaks to what you were saying about how you're kind of robbing the world of your gift.
If you don't at least put your message out there. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think that everyone
should start a podcast, but I'm biased.
Me too. Because again, there are there eight. We used to say seven billion. Now we just
got the recent report. There's eight billion people in the world. Yeah. And so you have
an audience, you know, as my wife likes to say, there's a lid for every pot. So I like
that. Yeah, yeah. It's it's there is an opportunity. There is there are people who are listening
to you and podcasting is such an intimate medium in that the listeners are choosing
you. They're choosing what they want to listen to. They're choosing you as a personality,
your production, whatever it is. And so get out of the way, you know, create create what
it is that you want to create. And if you need support and resources and opportunities,
there's more than enough out there to be had, whether it's our organization or others like,
like podcast movement and pot fest and all these other great conferences and communities
that are out there already.
Well, yeah, because I mean, the reality is, we're all looking for someone like us that
can talk to us. And so I think that's why it's so important for every ethnicity, every
race, every country to have a podcast, because we all need to hear those messages of everyone.
Absolutely. So now you said that you kind of got started in the fiction world. How does
that how does that look to you today with all these different storytelling podcasts
that are are still fiction based? What do you think about them? Like, what's your favorites?
Yeah, I love them. I have a I have a lot of favorites. Harlem Queen. There's a there's
a bunch I could I could name them all. But there's there's I actually would love to point
people to a resource. And it's called Black Audio Dramas Exist. And it's a directory of
black audio dramas, if there's any interest in that. Also podcasting color, which is run
by very and has been for quite some years. And that is a directory of people of color
podcast is of color. And women of color. Community is another space. But I love I still love
fiction podcasts is still something that's very near and dear to my heart. I'm still
creating and creating in that space. I'm also doing biopic nonfiction podcasts. So storytelling
from the the nonfiction perspective. And so we have one out right now and actually recorded
like 20 hours of my grandmother to create her own podcast. Now, she's 92 years old.
I don't know, she'll she'll be interested in listening to herself talk back. But it
but but I know that it's going to be impactful. And so I encourage people to do that, too.
Again, this is an opportunity. So even if it never gets that mainstream scale that most
people dream of in the celebrity culture of podcasting is kind of mixing up people's understanding
of what the opportunity is here for independent podcasters. But the opportunity to tell your
story and to tell the story of people who you care about and reach the audience that
matters to you is Israel.
I want to circle back to something that you said. You had said that you never know what
could come out of podcasting. Now, one of the things that we talk about all the time
at RSS is repurposing our content. Do you see a lot of that happening in in creators
that you speak with like that they're repurposing their content into more than just a podcast?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we have video we have people who write, we have people who,
again, use their podcasts, license their episodes and that sort of thing as resources for different
organizations. So if you have something that's about women's empowerment, the opportunity
is to to collaborate and have your some of your podcasts as a resource for these women
and these or these men or what are these youth, whatever it kind of speaks to. I'm really
big on on prison reform and and, you know, youth that are that are labeled at risk. And
so the podcast that I just did by the biopic that I did, that's become a resource for not
only people who are incarcerated, but also at you at risk youth and different organizations
that that can go into because it provides relatability, it provides possibility, it
provides all these things. So I think that there is so much opportunity for repurposing.
And it's just about having that exposure and understanding that that is possible because
as creatives, we tend to kind of go in and work in silos and don't really look to our
left and right for what else is possible, but also the support and making that happen.
And so that's what we're here to do. And so every conference, we have a session or two
about repurposing and what that can look like. I never thought of licensing your episodes.
Like, I mean, I thought of like, you know, putting it in YouTube or I've seen, you know,
turning into a blog post, but licensing that that's brilliant. That's a really good idea.
Now, speaking of like licensing and doing different things with your podcast, I noticed
that your organization has started selling merch. Now, one of the excuse me, one of the
blog posts that we did on our assess was like the do's and don'ts of how to sell merch to
your audience. What did it look like when you guys were preparing, you know, to sell
merch? Well, we've been, well, actually, I guess it wasn't selling. I was giving them
away at our first conference. Okay. I thought you were selling them, I apologize. Right.
Right. No, no, no, no, we're selling now. You're right. But the point is, is that it's
brand identity. I mean, after the first conference, I got images from people who had went to,
Africa and they were standing there in their Afros, you know, the Afros and audio t-shirt
and you know, and someone sitting in a board meeting across from another person who they
might not have connected, but they're like, look at what I'm seeing right now. This person
has an Afros and audio shirt underneath their suit jacket. It's super cool. So of course,
brand identity is the main purpose for the merch. But, you know, people love things.
They want a piece of it. They want to have that as something that's a lasting memory
from, you know, I have tickets from places that I went, you know, concert tickets and
stuff. I still have those things because it meant something to me. I still have my daughter's
stuff, you know, my, you know, things that matter and, and, and it made me feel good
while I was there. People tend to want something they can hold onto that's tangible. Cause
the memories are just that, you know, memories fade, but your Afros and audio shirt, hopefully
it's quality and it won't, it won't fade on you. And it's also badge of pride, something
that you can share with others. Yeah, absolutely. Well, is there anything that I haven't asked
you yet that, that you kind of want to make sure gets out to people? Sure. Well, the Afros
and audio podcast festival, the fifth annual event, which we're super proud to make that
milestone. I will be happening October 21st and 22nd in Baltimore, Maryland, and also
on the Huba virtual conferencing app. We do have a community called Black Podcasts Association.
And that is something that was existing prior to, to us becoming partner, community partners.
But we've been in partnership now for almost two years and we have a great group of people
and community members. And so that's been amazing. We have a new initiative for black
college students and black youth organizations to really introduce again, podcasting, educate
podcasting to the newer generation who deserves to be a part of this industry in real ways,
whether it's entrepreneurial or even, or even a career path. We are tired of the conversation
around we don't, we can't find qualified people to work at a production company or a platform
or services. There are plenty of us out here and you could just look on our roster of speakers
to know that, that they exist, we exist. And so just the opportunity of building what we
need to do, building our own table, but also making sure that we're at the existing tables
and letting people know that we're here. And there's opportunity inside of this industry
for people to, to build a career. There's also transferable skills that people have.
I used to only think in the entertainment industry and technology, but I've been talking
to lawyers and, and, and, you know, educators who also brought those skills to podcasting.
And so there's so many ways in which to get involved. And so we're simply doing our part
to make sure that we increase the podcast in the market and increase listenership, but
also introduce podcasting to folks who, who don't have a clue about it because they're
not, believe it or not, there's a lot.
Yeah. Did you believe it? Now, so speaking of what is, what is stuff that people can
do that are listening that they can do to support your call us?
Sure. Well, definitely follow us on social media channels at Afros and audio and to understand
what we're doing. You can visit Afros and audio.com to, to get more information about
it as well as, you know, we're looking for facilitators and trainers for our programs.
We're looking, always looking for funding. Our sponsorship campaign just started March
1st and we'll actually be going out publicly March 13th. And so supporting on in that,
supporting and just getting the word out, letting people know that we exist, our community
exists, our conference exists. And it is, it has become one of the most anticipated conferences
in the industry for black independent podcast creators and audio professionals. I'm really
proud of that. And so however you can support us, we're here to receive it.
So are you guys just on social media or where can people find you online?
Yes. Instagram is our main space. We're also on, on Twitter. We're also on Facebook as
well. But yeah, just letting people know that our tickets are going on sale the middle of
March. Our sponsorship campaign is already going and we mostly people come to our conference.
They love our conference and, and that's how we just continue to grow and become some people,
an event that people want to be a part of every year. Yeah.
I love everything that you've shared and I got to ask you one question before I let you
go. I always ask everyone this. What's one question? It's kind of just a fun one, but
what's one question I didn't ask you, you really wish I had. It can be anything.
Sure. Well, one of the things I won't, do I have to say it back in question form? Like
your note?
Nope. You can say it however you want.
All right. Well, one of the things I really always like to amplify is that when I say
that I built a community I was seeking, I always love to give props to my great grandmother
who taught me community. And we grew up in a very small area in on the Eastern shore
of Maryland. I grew up on a farm and we were surrounded by people who were aunts and uncles
and cousins and all this sort of thing that weren't at all. But it really taught me what
community looks like and feels like when it's not forced, it's not based on bull. And it's
truly the opportunity for us to share our resources, support one another, amplify one
another and make sure that we all win at the end of the day, meaning that we're all sustainable,
we're all eating and we all feel safe. And so what we've created is an inclusive space.
There are no identity politics here. If you're biased, it's in on our website. I need you
to go to another conference because that's not what we're doing here. We include everybody
because all spaces, communities, events, what have you should represent the society in which
we live and it's not monolithic. And so that is important to us and that's important for
safe spaces and communities like ours.
I think one of the big things that's come through this entire interview is you didn't
see the community you were looking for, so you built it. And so I feel like anyone who's
listening to this, if you feel that way, build your community, start a podcast. Absolutely.
This was fantastic. Well, I want to thank you so much for being here with me today and
I love everything that you've shared and I can't wait for people to hear what we talked
about.
I really appreciate it Ashley and RSS. I thank you so much for having me and presenting this
opportunity.
We were happy to have you.
Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this
episode. To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to RSS.com
backslash blog. And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started
for free with your first episode on us. Thanks for tuning in.