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Hey everyone, Asa here with RSS.com. In today's episode, we're chatting with Talib Jasir,

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founder of Afros and Audios. We'll be chatting about the organization, its community, the

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upcoming podcast festival, and so much more. Enjoy the show.

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Alrighty. Okay, well, welcome Talib to the show. I'm so excited you could be here. How

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are you today?

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I'm great. Thank you, Ashley.

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So tell me a little bit about your organization and how you got into the podcasting space.

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Sure. So in 2017, I created a very, very short, limited, round-com series called The Fussings

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Until One of Us is Dead. It's a fiction series. And I didn't, at that time, it was something

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that I had been introduced to audio, radio dramas back in the day. You know, Ralphie

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sitting in front of the radio on the Christmas story. And it's kind of like my first initiation

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where I was just like, wow, he's sitting there listening to a story and he's so invested

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in all of this. And that piqued my interest. And then as a teenager, I would be sitting

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in the back of my mother's car on the way to school, what have you. And there was always

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this, it's called Rustpar Morning Show. And they had this very short, I would say it was

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about 60 second, maybe two minute clip daily, which was a soap opera. And I literally hated

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this thing. It was audio, you know, and you could use your imagination to see everything

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that was happening. They were very, very skilled at that and getting these characters and these

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environments and everything across an audio platform and just intrigued me. And so it

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was something I wanted to do for many years. But, you know, like most humans, I didn't

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know what to do. So I did nothing at all for several years. And one day I involved my

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self into kind of a program to help me get out of my own way, to start thinking of myself

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as the creative that I actually am instead of trying to hide behind curtains. And so

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one of the things that they asked was what kind of goals do you have and what would you

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like to create in this course of 90 days? And I put the audio drama on there because

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it was something I'd wanted to do for years, but I just couldn't get myself off the starting

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block. And so immediately I wanted to say, you know what, let's just take that off because

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I don't think I can do it. And I was challenged to stick with it. And so it literally took

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the last month of that 90 days for me to cast, produce it, publish it and all these things.

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And I got it done. And so that was something that, again, because I didn't know what to

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do and I know where to start, it prompted me to one, two, one, see more black creators

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creating audio dramas. And 2017 is not what it looks like now in 2023. It's a lot of folks,

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but it wasn't then. And so I wanted to create a space where I could not only create community

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and resources and support, but I can also encourage people to join and do the same.

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And again, wasn't what it's like today. So 2017, 2018, I established Afros in Audio and

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a very niche opportunity. And 2018, 2019, nothing happened. Not one thing. So I was

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getting ready because I'm a creative, throw it all away. Like I do pick it up, put it

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down, say I tried, it didn't work, moving on. But for some reason, Afros in Audio just

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seemed like permanent. It seemed permanent for me. It didn't seem like something that

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I wanted to just stop. And so I reached out to a friend of mine who was in podcasts and

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said, you know, I really want to keep this going, but I don't know where, how to pivot.

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And he said, you know, you should think about events. And Tuesday, and people have heard

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me say this, I think he met a two hour meetup. It was a 20 minute meeting and I left there

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saying, okay, I'm going to create a two day conference for black podcasts, creatives,

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and audio professionals. And that's how it started. In 2019, we had our first conference

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in Brooklyn, New York in person. And then COVID happened and we had to pivot very prematurely,

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not really having that as a thought. The first conference was hybrid. It was live streamed

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and in person, but it was never intended to be a virtual only conference. And so 2020,

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2021 virtual. And then we just were able to have an in person again, a hybrid conference

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this past October in Philly, Pennsylvania.

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So okay, you mentioned the, the challenge and how it kind of lit a fire under you. So

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I'm curious, like, do you feel like that was the same case whenever you went to that meetup

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and they just gave you that idea and you're like, okay, now I'm locked in, now I got to

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do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm a firm believer in anybody that, you know, knows me and has

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worked with me over the years. One, this community was built because I was seeking it. Right.

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So I consider myself as much as I am the leader and the founder and the CEO, still very much

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a part of the membership of what it is that we're creating. I'm learning every day from

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the folks around me. And I'm hoping that I'm, you know, supporting others and understanding

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podcasting and all that. But this was just a singular meeting with, with a friend of

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mine that I just kind of asked. And I, if I say I'm going to do it, then that's what

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has to happen. So there were times where it was that Homer Simpson, Jeff, where he goes

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back into the bushes. Like, what was I thinking? I've never done anything at this scale before.

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I know my intention is there, but what was I thinking? I don't know how to do this. But

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yeah, once I say it out of my mouth, it's got to happen. So if other people hear me.

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So, so yeah, it absolutely lit a fire to make sure that I showed up in the way in which

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the responsibility is to show up for other people and to create a conference that provides

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the support and resources that our community deserves.

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So whenever you announced it, what was the like first thing that happened? Like what

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was the experience like? Were people excited or was there a lot of please come to my thing?

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Of course there's, there's still a please come to my thing. Because one of the, one

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of the issues is the access to marketing engines and funding and that sort of thing. And so

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I consider ourselves, Afro as an audio, the little engine that could, because despite

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it all it happens every year. And, and, and there's challenges, there's challenges with

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marketing is challenges for funding it because it's expensive to, to run a conference, especially

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a two day conference. And so just to answer your question, the first thing I did was I

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reached out to people who are already in this space. A lot of times people tend to create

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and being a public policy graduate and social justice and all these sorts of things. A lot

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of times people create saying, this is what I think you need. And this is what I think

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you want. But we have to step back when we are in the business of building something

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with talking to the folks who are already doing the work and who already know their

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pain points and the things that they need in order to be successful. And so that's my

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first step. I sat and I talked with people who already had communities based around their

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podcasts, directories, that sort of thing. And then I organized a team to support me

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and pulling off the first conference.

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Well with something that big of a scale, I mean, like for instance, the guy who started

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podcast movement, Jared Easley, we had him on the show and he was saying that, you know,

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that first year there was no profit. There was, in fact, he said that it was only recently

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they became profitable. And that's not why you start it. You start it because you're

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building the community, you start a podcast, you're creating a community. Would you say

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that that was kind of the situation you felt like you were in?

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Absolutely. I'm still in it. Yeah, I've yet to and it's just transparent and I'm fine

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with saying it, although I'm sure that people couldn't even fathom it, but I haven't profited

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from it one time yet. And so if that was the point, then we would have stopped year one,

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you know. So I know that with business, you know, I have the acumen to know that things

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scale and it's the work that we do and the continuous work that we do and the consistency.

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So we aren't there yet, but year after year, our support grows, our resources grow and

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the more we have, the more we can provide and give to our community. And so that's the

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goal.

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Whenever it feels tough though, what keeps you going?

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The people. When we have the conference, those two days really ignite and validate why we're

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here and more so why I'm here in the first place. So it's a struggle, you know, year

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after year, it's one of those things where I do contemplate quitting. I do and not because

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it's not working, quote unquote, it's that I have limited resources and those limited

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resources make it very challenging and it gives truth to the idea of the unequal playing

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field and the value add that people don't, people, when I say people, I would say companies,

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businesses, what have you, invest in communities and or missions that are not something that's

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aligned with them, whether they have a blind spot of the importance of it and or just don't

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see the value in it. And so it's something that is a constant, I guess, wall we're up

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against, but something that I'm committed to making happen regardless of all of those

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obstacles that are just there and it's not just there for my conference, it's there for

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podcast movement as well. We're still educating people on the power of podcasting and the

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opportunity and the viability of it. And so it takes all of us to make sure that we, that

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is our message, that this is a viable industry, it's an evolving industry and we all have

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to do our part.

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There's something so beautiful though about being driven by a purpose and it seems like,

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you know, you're very much driven by a purpose. And so even though you may not be getting

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the revenue yet, there's so much like profitability in terms of community and getting to know

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people. And so I'm curious, what exactly is for anybody who's listening who doesn't know,

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what exactly is the mission of your organization?

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So our mission, Afros and Audio Podcast Festival is really, I had a few goals when I started.

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One of them was that the event happens, it's great, we all have a good time, but I really

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was committed to the day after, the impact, the connections, the networking, the ability

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to continue to work together, support one another and really, again, understand that

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it's going to take all of us to make sure that the podcast industry stays alive. There

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is no industry without podcasts. So that makes the content creators some of the most powerful

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people in the room. And so really to understand that also that people who are contributing

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to this industry that wouldn't exist without us get to be a part of the decision making

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and the success of it and really wanting folks to understand that.

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The other thing is, again, I'm a community builder who was seeking community. And so

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I know that part of it. I know the create from the creative space. I know from the organizer

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space, I know from all these spaces, how important community when it's done with integrity and

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done right and not based on capitalism and trying to poach from our members, but so that

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our community has access to one another, not that creating a community so that I have access

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to them. That is the mission. It really is to create a space where people feel safe,

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feel seen, feel championed, but also get the opportunity to grow their skills and up level

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the quality of their podcast and their content and have the resources and support year round

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that again, they deserve and is the true connector for sustainability.

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Well, in terms of podcasting itself as a medium, in your opinion, what is the value, the actual

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value of starting a podcast in the first place?

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Well there's so many. There's so many in my opinion. I think that podcasting definitely

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has an entrepreneurial spirit about it. And that is just taking the initiative to stand

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on whatever it is that your messages or your voice is and being willing to put that out

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in the world. So it's output, it's a production, right? And so just the ability that a creative

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has to create something, complete something and stay with something is it's in and of

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itself as a fellow creative, an accomplishment.

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That's true.

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So that in and of itself, but there's also for me, and this is my own personal message

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and I actually just got off a call before this where I say that I have this conference

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and this community, but it's all a front, it's all a guise for people to really get

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that we are actually laying down a record of our lived experiences. We're laying down

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a record of our own perspectives. And it's something that will be a historical aspect

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of it. It's something that becomes a resource for future generations and for understanding

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where people are and were in this century, in this decade and since podcasts started.

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So I think it's a personal mission for me. And that is based on our history of oral tradition

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and storytelling. And so we have to, I think that podcasting and our stories are much like

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language when you have a mother tongue and it's not being passed down to your generations.

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Once that elder passes with that language, it's gone from that family. And so our stories

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are the same way.

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So in a way, our podcasts are our time capsule.

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It really is.

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I've never really heard of it put that way, but putting it that way, like that's really

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beautiful. So where do you see the future of podcasting going?

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I see it going the way that it's been going, but I also see that it's evolving. And again,

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I think that for once in the creator's life that we understand how powerful that we are.

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Again, the industry doesn't exist without podcasts. And so with that said, we have to

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have some autonomy and some agency over how this industry benefits the content creator.

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And so one of the things that we're working really hard to do is empower the content creator

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to know that how this works, how this industry shapes our listenership and all of this. We

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have a responsibility around that to make sure that one, we are increasing active podcasts

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in the global market by black creatives and people of color in general, but also that

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we say, I have a podcast, so that we can make sure that other people are we bringing that

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listenership and that data that then informs advertising and all these sort of things.

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Again, I just believe that the content creator has the power to really shape this. And that's

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what I'm hoping happens for the future of podcasts.

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I hope so too. I hope that more advertisers start to recognize just how important it is

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for smaller creators and even medium and bigger ones. But what's interesting is I've started

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to see just how many celebrity podcasts are starting to come out. And I hope that they

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don't start overlooking the smaller creator because yes, there are more than 5 million

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podcasters at this point in 2023, but of those only 400,000 are active. And when you compare

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that to the 80 million or 800 million, I can't remember how many it is websites, we're still

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like small fish in a big pod. So we have this opportunity to really get our messages out

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there. So what would you say to the person who's thinking about starting a podcast, but

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hasn't quite done it yet?

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Well, one, I think that most of our societies, whether you are American or another society,

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it's a deliberate act to believe that there's to operate in a scarcity. And what I mean

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by that is that, okay, there's already 5000 podcasts on how to make money and podcasts

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on this or that. But there's only you with your voice and your perspective and your experience.

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And so really do that. People think about the podcast industry being saturated. It's

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not at all. You just gave a great statistic about how many state remain active. And that's

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one of the some of the work that we're doing to make sure that there's sustainability and

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providing that support and those resources. So, you know, YouTube is saturated, but that

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doesn't stop the million people who are going to upload a video today. And so we've got

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to really get out of a space of there's too many of them or too much of something. We

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all get to create and express in whatever way and you will find your audience. There's

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this there's that opportunity for that. And so for people who want to start start, that's

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how you finish. I'm a life coach to creators and entrepreneurs as well. So it's 2015 certified

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and that again, that was my mission to support creators and entrepreneurs of just getting

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out of their own way and understanding that their talent and what makes them great and

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what makes them great communicators and what have you is really not about that one person

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or the individual that's creating it. It's about all the people that are going to now

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see possibility in you and in your message and in the perspectives and experiences that

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you have. So it's actually important work to start a podcast and to make sure that whatever

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it is that's inside is able to come out. And I think podcasting is a perfect medium for

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that because it also for me is a great piece of content that becomes a cornerstone. So

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many things can happen from a podcast. There are so many ways in which you can go, whether

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it's becoming a resource for different organizations or creating your own business or becoming

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you know, an expert on whatever topic that you have and speaking engagements and all

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these sort of things or building a business. There's so many ways in which that podcast

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can become an extension of who you already are and what you're already creating and or

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those goals. So I think this medium is something that will remain and it's important that people

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jump in and get into it.

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I agree completely. And you're reminding me of a quote from Marie Forleo. She always ends

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her MarieTV episodes with the world needs that gift that only you have. And it kind

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of speaks to what you were saying about how you're kind of robbing the world of your gift.

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If you don't at least put your message out there. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think that everyone

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should start a podcast, but I'm biased.

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Me too. Because again, there are there eight. We used to say seven billion. Now we just

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got the recent report. There's eight billion people in the world. Yeah. And so you have

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an audience, you know, as my wife likes to say, there's a lid for every pot. So I like

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that. Yeah, yeah. It's it's there is an opportunity. There is there are people who are listening

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to you and podcasting is such an intimate medium in that the listeners are choosing

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you. They're choosing what they want to listen to. They're choosing you as a personality,

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your production, whatever it is. And so get out of the way, you know, create create what

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it is that you want to create. And if you need support and resources and opportunities,

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there's more than enough out there to be had, whether it's our organization or others like,

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like podcast movement and pot fest and all these other great conferences and communities

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that are out there already.

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Well, yeah, because I mean, the reality is, we're all looking for someone like us that

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can talk to us. And so I think that's why it's so important for every ethnicity, every

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race, every country to have a podcast, because we all need to hear those messages of everyone.

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Absolutely. So now you said that you kind of got started in the fiction world. How does

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that how does that look to you today with all these different storytelling podcasts

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that are are still fiction based? What do you think about them? Like, what's your favorites?

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Yeah, I love them. I have a I have a lot of favorites. Harlem Queen. There's a there's

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a bunch I could I could name them all. But there's there's I actually would love to point

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people to a resource. And it's called Black Audio Dramas Exist. And it's a directory of

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black audio dramas, if there's any interest in that. Also podcasting color, which is run

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by very and has been for quite some years. And that is a directory of people of color

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podcast is of color. And women of color. Community is another space. But I love I still love

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fiction podcasts is still something that's very near and dear to my heart. I'm still

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creating and creating in that space. I'm also doing biopic nonfiction podcasts. So storytelling

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from the the nonfiction perspective. And so we have one out right now and actually recorded

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like 20 hours of my grandmother to create her own podcast. Now, she's 92 years old.

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I don't know, she'll she'll be interested in listening to herself talk back. But it

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but but I know that it's going to be impactful. And so I encourage people to do that, too.

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Again, this is an opportunity. So even if it never gets that mainstream scale that most

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people dream of in the celebrity culture of podcasting is kind of mixing up people's understanding

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of what the opportunity is here for independent podcasters. But the opportunity to tell your

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story and to tell the story of people who you care about and reach the audience that

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matters to you is Israel.

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I want to circle back to something that you said. You had said that you never know what

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could come out of podcasting. Now, one of the things that we talk about all the time

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at RSS is repurposing our content. Do you see a lot of that happening in in creators

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that you speak with like that they're repurposing their content into more than just a podcast?

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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we have video we have people who write, we have people who,

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again, use their podcasts, license their episodes and that sort of thing as resources for different

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organizations. So if you have something that's about women's empowerment, the opportunity

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is to to collaborate and have your some of your podcasts as a resource for these women

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and these or these men or what are these youth, whatever it kind of speaks to. I'm really

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big on on prison reform and and, you know, youth that are that are labeled at risk. And

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so the podcast that I just did by the biopic that I did, that's become a resource for not

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only people who are incarcerated, but also at you at risk youth and different organizations

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that that can go into because it provides relatability, it provides possibility, it

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provides all these things. So I think that there is so much opportunity for repurposing.

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And it's just about having that exposure and understanding that that is possible because

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as creatives, we tend to kind of go in and work in silos and don't really look to our

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left and right for what else is possible, but also the support and making that happen.

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And so that's what we're here to do. And so every conference, we have a session or two

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about repurposing and what that can look like. I never thought of licensing your episodes.

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Like, I mean, I thought of like, you know, putting it in YouTube or I've seen, you know,

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turning into a blog post, but licensing that that's brilliant. That's a really good idea.

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Now, speaking of like licensing and doing different things with your podcast, I noticed

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that your organization has started selling merch. Now, one of the excuse me, one of the

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blog posts that we did on our assess was like the do's and don'ts of how to sell merch to

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your audience. What did it look like when you guys were preparing, you know, to sell

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merch? Well, we've been, well, actually, I guess it wasn't selling. I was giving them

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away at our first conference. Okay. I thought you were selling them, I apologize. Right.

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Right. No, no, no, no, we're selling now. You're right. But the point is, is that it's

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brand identity. I mean, after the first conference, I got images from people who had went to,

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Africa and they were standing there in their Afros, you know, the Afros and audio t-shirt

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and you know, and someone sitting in a board meeting across from another person who they

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might not have connected, but they're like, look at what I'm seeing right now. This person

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has an Afros and audio shirt underneath their suit jacket. It's super cool. So of course,

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brand identity is the main purpose for the merch. But, you know, people love things.

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They want a piece of it. They want to have that as something that's a lasting memory

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from, you know, I have tickets from places that I went, you know, concert tickets and

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stuff. I still have those things because it meant something to me. I still have my daughter's

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stuff, you know, my, you know, things that matter and, and, and it made me feel good

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while I was there. People tend to want something they can hold onto that's tangible. Cause

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the memories are just that, you know, memories fade, but your Afros and audio shirt, hopefully

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it's quality and it won't, it won't fade on you. And it's also badge of pride, something

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that you can share with others. Yeah, absolutely. Well, is there anything that I haven't asked

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you yet that, that you kind of want to make sure gets out to people? Sure. Well, the Afros

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and audio podcast festival, the fifth annual event, which we're super proud to make that

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milestone. I will be happening October 21st and 22nd in Baltimore, Maryland, and also

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on the Huba virtual conferencing app. We do have a community called Black Podcasts Association.

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And that is something that was existing prior to, to us becoming partner, community partners.

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But we've been in partnership now for almost two years and we have a great group of people

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and community members. And so that's been amazing. We have a new initiative for black

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college students and black youth organizations to really introduce again, podcasting, educate

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podcasting to the newer generation who deserves to be a part of this industry in real ways,

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whether it's entrepreneurial or even, or even a career path. We are tired of the conversation

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around we don't, we can't find qualified people to work at a production company or a platform

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or services. There are plenty of us out here and you could just look on our roster of speakers

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to know that, that they exist, we exist. And so just the opportunity of building what we

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need to do, building our own table, but also making sure that we're at the existing tables

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and letting people know that we're here. And there's opportunity inside of this industry

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for people to, to build a career. There's also transferable skills that people have.

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I used to only think in the entertainment industry and technology, but I've been talking

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to lawyers and, and, and, you know, educators who also brought those skills to podcasting.

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And so there's so many ways in which to get involved. And so we're simply doing our part

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to make sure that we increase the podcast in the market and increase listenership, but

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also introduce podcasting to folks who, who don't have a clue about it because they're

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not, believe it or not, there's a lot.

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Yeah. Did you believe it? Now, so speaking of what is, what is stuff that people can

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do that are listening that they can do to support your call us?

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Sure. Well, definitely follow us on social media channels at Afros and audio and to understand

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what we're doing. You can visit Afros and audio.com to, to get more information about

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it as well as, you know, we're looking for facilitators and trainers for our programs.

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We're looking, always looking for funding. Our sponsorship campaign just started March

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1st and we'll actually be going out publicly March 13th. And so supporting on in that,

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supporting and just getting the word out, letting people know that we exist, our community

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exists, our conference exists. And it is, it has become one of the most anticipated conferences

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in the industry for black independent podcast creators and audio professionals. I'm really

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proud of that. And so however you can support us, we're here to receive it.

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So are you guys just on social media or where can people find you online?

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Yes. Instagram is our main space. We're also on, on Twitter. We're also on Facebook as

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well. But yeah, just letting people know that our tickets are going on sale the middle of

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March. Our sponsorship campaign is already going and we mostly people come to our conference.

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They love our conference and, and that's how we just continue to grow and become some people,

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an event that people want to be a part of every year. Yeah.

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I love everything that you've shared and I got to ask you one question before I let you

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go. I always ask everyone this. What's one question? It's kind of just a fun one, but

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what's one question I didn't ask you, you really wish I had. It can be anything.

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Sure. Well, one of the things I won't, do I have to say it back in question form? Like

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your note?

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Nope. You can say it however you want.

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All right. Well, one of the things I really always like to amplify is that when I say

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that I built a community I was seeking, I always love to give props to my great grandmother

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who taught me community. And we grew up in a very small area in on the Eastern shore

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of Maryland. I grew up on a farm and we were surrounded by people who were aunts and uncles

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and cousins and all this sort of thing that weren't at all. But it really taught me what

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community looks like and feels like when it's not forced, it's not based on bull. And it's

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truly the opportunity for us to share our resources, support one another, amplify one

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another and make sure that we all win at the end of the day, meaning that we're all sustainable,

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we're all eating and we all feel safe. And so what we've created is an inclusive space.

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There are no identity politics here. If you're biased, it's in on our website. I need you

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to go to another conference because that's not what we're doing here. We include everybody

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because all spaces, communities, events, what have you should represent the society in which

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we live and it's not monolithic. And so that is important to us and that's important for

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safe spaces and communities like ours.

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I think one of the big things that's come through this entire interview is you didn't

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see the community you were looking for, so you built it. And so I feel like anyone who's

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listening to this, if you feel that way, build your community, start a podcast. Absolutely.

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This was fantastic. Well, I want to thank you so much for being here with me today and

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I love everything that you've shared and I can't wait for people to hear what we talked

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about.

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I really appreciate it Ashley and RSS. I thank you so much for having me and presenting this

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opportunity.

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We were happy to have you.

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Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this

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episode. To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to RSS.com

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backslash blog. And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started

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for free with your first episode on us. Thanks for tuning in.