1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,960 Hey everyone, Ashley here with RSS.com. 2 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:20,000 In this episode, we're chatting with Jeremy Enns about whether or not there is an actual 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,240 roadmap in a person's podcasting journey. 4 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:27,400 Join us as we dive into the world of content creation, building in public, and finding 5 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,080 clarity and purpose as a podcaster. 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:38,560 Enjoy the show. 7 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,160 But I'm very excited to have you here. 8 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:42,760 I can't wait to chat about all the things. 9 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,640 So let's just dive into it. 10 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,320 So Jeremy, welcome to the show. 11 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,020 Can you do us a big favor and tell us what it is that you do? 12 00:00:50,020 --> 00:00:51,640 So my name is Jeremy Enns. 13 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,040 I'm the founder of Podcast Marketing Academy, where essentially we help business owners 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,800 who are never going to be like the Mr. Beasts of the world, but develop really profitable 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:01,800 podcasts. 16 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,920 And here I'm using a YouTuber, but I think a lot of people in the creative space are 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,640 aspiring to be the best in the world, whatever that might be. 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,200 Joe Rogan's a little polarizing, so we'll go with somebody maybe a little less polarizing, 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,200 Mr. Beast. 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,600 But use content and podcasts specifically to build really profitable and sustainable 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:18,600 businesses. 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,400 And so I have a course based around that, a membership, and then also write the Scrappy 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,840 Podcasting Newsletter, where every week I share one kind of two minute tip to help you 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,280 punch above your weight as a small scrappy underdog podcaster. 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,080 Yes, and your Scrappy Podcasting Newsletter is actually kind of how you came onto my radar. 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,280 I'm not really sure how I ended up on that newsletter list. 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,000 But once I started reading it, I was just like, okay, this guy seems to know what he's 28 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,000 doing. 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,720 So that's why I just had to get you on the show because I'm just like, man, this guy 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,320 knows the stuff about podcasting. 31 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:49,000 And I'm kind of excited that you said Mr. Beast. 32 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,480 I'm a huge fan of his. 33 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,080 I saw today, like we're recording this in August, I'm about to go on a big road trip. 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,000 That's why we're recording it so early. 35 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,200 But I just saw today that he's actually being sued by the Mr. Beast Burger Company. 36 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:07,360 And it's just like, it's wild how he started with no viewers, no listeners, and people 37 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,360 listening right now might be in the same boat. 38 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,720 And now he's worth enough money that he's being sued for $100 million. 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,280 And it's just, it's insane to think his grassroots, how he began. 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,960 And now he's this like multi-million dollar conglomerate dude that like, and you wouldn't 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,920 think of that because it just, he was just on the internet doing his thing. 42 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:27,480 But that's kind of what we're all doing here. 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,800 So what I wanted to bring you on for is to talk about kind of the roadmap of what it 44 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:39,000 takes to go from scrappy podcaster to actually making some success. 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Yeah. 46 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,080 So that's, I mean, that's a hundred percent what I love talking about. 47 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:49,120 And I think, you know, I think one of the things like talking about the idea of like 48 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,640 being scrappy was, I don't know where I initially came up across that kind of conception of 49 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:55,320 it or that word somewhere else. 50 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,320 I think in like startups, you often hear about like being a scrappy startup. 51 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,000 And I thought, ah, that's an interesting like mentality to bring into podcasting as well. 52 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,160 And one of the things is I think the most successful creators, business owners, like 53 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,740 keep that scrappy mentality forever, for always. 54 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:14,200 And so I think it's almost like not about like, you want to start with that mentality, 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,840 but it's not something that then you reach some level of success and you're like, well, 56 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,560 now I can just like coast on this. 57 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,880 And you know, some people do that and a lot of times they pay the price for that because 58 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,200 they're not like looking for, they're not continuing to experiment and looking for, you 59 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,360 know, well, this thing that is working right now might not work forever. 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,800 And which is almost always the case in marketing. 61 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,360 And so they're not looking at that next thing that's coming. 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,520 And when you get complacent, a lot of times, you know, you might've had some success to 63 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,400 get to this point and then you can't kind of maintain that in the long run. 64 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,480 That is definitely so true. 65 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,840 So let's kind of go backwards then for a person who is trying to get to that, but that end 66 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:54,360 destination of being successful where they maybe could coast on it someday, but not really. 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:55,760 Let's be honest. 68 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,400 What would you say to someone who comes to you and they're like, Jeremy, I want to start 69 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,400 a podcast. 70 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:01,880 What do I do, man? 71 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,880 Yeah. 72 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,900 So for me, I think it depends a lot on who the person is and what their goals are. 73 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:12,240 So I think somebody who is wanting to start a show that might become more of like a content 74 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:13,680 creator type show. 75 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:18,260 And so their goal is to create content that then attracts sponsors and advertisers. 76 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:21,640 That's a bit of a different roadmap from somebody who says, okay, I've got this business over 77 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:22,640 here. 78 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,300 I've got a product that I want to get people into. 79 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:28,540 And I know people talk about content marketing, you know, how do I make use of a podcast to, 80 00:04:28,540 --> 00:04:32,160 you know, both grow an audience, but also convert an audience into customers or clients. 81 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,660 Those are two, you know, fairly different ways of approaching it. 82 00:04:35,660 --> 00:04:39,480 But I think at the start, like it all boils down to the idea. 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,960 And I think that a lot of times, almost a hundred percent of the time, the idea that 84 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:50,160 you come up with for a show is not nearly good enough or polished enough to sustain 85 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,700 a show in the long run and actually achieve success with. 86 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:58,120 And so this is something that I think a lot of us indie creators, we look at, especially 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:04,320 in podcasting is kind of a weird medium because you have this like industry side of things 88 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,420 that is not really what most of us are plugging into where there are networks and there's 89 00:05:09,420 --> 00:05:11,080 like NPR and the New York Times. 90 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,280 And like, we are not creating shows the way that they're creating shows. 91 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:18,060 And we don't have access to that whole, you know, existing reach and marketing apparatus 92 00:05:18,060 --> 00:05:19,360 and budget. 93 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,140 And so a lot of us, because we're still in the same medium, though, that's what we compare 94 00:05:22,140 --> 00:05:23,140 to. 95 00:05:23,140 --> 00:05:26,780 And a lot of times indie podcasters and creators will take their cues from these big shows 96 00:05:26,780 --> 00:05:28,620 and think, well, they're doing it that way. 97 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:29,620 And they're the best. 98 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:31,220 And so I should do it that way. 99 00:05:31,220 --> 00:05:35,620 And that is you are entirely doing yourself a misservice if you are approaching that, 100 00:05:35,620 --> 00:05:37,780 because like we don't have the resources to do that. 101 00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:42,140 And I can think personally of like looking at years ago, Gary B and thinking like, oh, 102 00:05:42,140 --> 00:05:45,740 that's the way to do content marketing where that is the way to do content marketing. 103 00:05:45,740 --> 00:05:49,820 If you have a huge budget and you are looking to go beyond hundreds of thousands of people 104 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:54,060 and reach millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people with your brand, 105 00:05:54,060 --> 00:05:57,320 that's a very different thing from getting your first thousand people to follow you and 106 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:58,460 buy into your message. 107 00:05:58,460 --> 00:06:02,740 And so I think the first thing we need to do is say like, OK, I'm not trying to do that. 108 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:05,900 That is something that is not attainable for me at this point, probably will never be. 109 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:07,020 And that's OK. 110 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:09,660 That's not the roadmap I need to follow. 111 00:06:09,660 --> 00:06:15,180 And so that said, the thing about going back to this idea of like focusing on the idea, 112 00:06:15,180 --> 00:06:20,740 one of the things that shows from those big networks will do and you can read, I think 113 00:06:20,740 --> 00:06:24,420 Eric Newsom's book, Make Noise talks about this in a little bit more depth behind the 114 00:06:24,420 --> 00:06:25,420 scenes. 115 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:30,420 He has worked with tons of these shows from Amazon to Audible is Amazon, all these studios 116 00:06:30,420 --> 00:06:35,900 making like really expensive, highly produced shows that are very story driven, things like 117 00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:36,900 that. 118 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:39,820 And one of the things he talks about and anybody else in that world will tell you is that a 119 00:06:39,820 --> 00:06:45,340 lot of times they spend multiple years developing these shows before they ever get to launch 120 00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:46,340 day. 121 00:06:46,340 --> 00:06:50,500 And so I think us as creators, we see this amazing show that is incredibly polished. 122 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:52,100 It gets immediate traction with an audience. 123 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,820 And of course, part of this is due to the marketing resources they have available. 124 00:06:55,820 --> 00:06:59,460 And we think, oh, like they launched on day one with this incredible idea that immediately 125 00:06:59,460 --> 00:07:00,540 took off. 126 00:07:00,540 --> 00:07:04,100 And what we don't see is the two to three years of development behind the scenes of 127 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:07,780 like testing it with audience and like writing scripts and rewriting and getting all this 128 00:07:07,780 --> 00:07:11,580 feedback and like trying it out on small numbers of people and like teams working together 129 00:07:11,580 --> 00:07:15,780 to like craft this into a show that is actually worth listening to. 130 00:07:15,780 --> 00:07:20,020 And that is something that we certainly could, as indie creators, do that behind the scenes 131 00:07:20,020 --> 00:07:21,680 as well. 132 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,940 But I think a lot of us, what we end up doing is doing that in public, which I actually, 133 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:26,820 I think that speeds that up a lot of times. 134 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:31,780 But I think that what's missing is that that work, that development work needs to be done 135 00:07:31,780 --> 00:07:33,340 somewhere. 136 00:07:33,340 --> 00:07:36,620 And it can either be before the show is live or it can happen after the show is live. 137 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:41,300 But to get to the point where you have a show that is capable of really building sustained 138 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:44,020 traction is not an overnight process. 139 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:47,500 And so I think that's the first thing is like the first idea that you come up with, there 140 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:52,620 might be something there, but it's probably not polished enough to the point where you 141 00:07:52,620 --> 00:07:56,420 get it in front of somebody and they're immediately like they get it instantly and they're compelled 142 00:07:56,420 --> 00:07:57,660 to listen to it. 143 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:01,420 And I think that that's something that most people give up before they ever get to that 144 00:08:01,420 --> 00:08:04,940 point of like polishing and molding that idea. 145 00:08:04,940 --> 00:08:08,740 And so that's where, you know, for me, when I, when I start working with somebody, it's 146 00:08:08,740 --> 00:08:11,780 kind of like, okay, you've got, there's, there's something here in this idea. 147 00:08:11,780 --> 00:08:16,340 There is a good idea buried here, but now we need to figure out like, how do we mold 148 00:08:16,340 --> 00:08:20,020 this into something that is actually a compelling show that's beyond just a good idea, but how 149 00:08:20,020 --> 00:08:24,700 do we actually like convey this in the best way possible, both from the content itself, 150 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:28,260 but also how we market it and talk about it and package it and all those things. 151 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:32,780 So I think that's like really at the starting point where everything needs to, the focus 152 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:35,100 needs to be. 153 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:36,580 I think that's great advice. 154 00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:40,180 And now one of the things that you said though was that, you know, we don't see the behind 155 00:08:40,180 --> 00:08:41,180 the scenes. 156 00:08:41,180 --> 00:08:45,780 We don't see the multiple years of all the, all like the groundwork and the, you know, 157 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:51,100 the research and the, there's probably, I would imagine a lot of marketing research 158 00:08:51,100 --> 00:08:55,580 where they're doing like network groups and focus groups and all that good stuff. 159 00:08:55,580 --> 00:09:00,100 But what do we do when we want to achieve that level of success, but we, like you said, 160 00:09:00,100 --> 00:09:02,820 we don't have those resources. 161 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:09,940 How can we hit the ground running, but maybe not necessarily do it quite at the level of 162 00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:12,780 a Gary V or a, you know, Amazon. 163 00:09:12,780 --> 00:09:18,380 Yeah, so this is, I think where this idea of like building in public comes in, which 164 00:09:18,380 --> 00:09:23,740 is again, it's kind of like an idea that's bigger in the software maker space rather 165 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:24,740 than content creators. 166 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:28,240 Although it has come over to the content space in the past few years as well. 167 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,380 And I know Austin Kleon's book, Show Your Work kind of really popularized this among 168 00:09:32,380 --> 00:09:36,760 kind of general creators and creatives depending on how you kind of identify. 169 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,020 But I think this idea of like building in public and like showing your work regularly 170 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:44,580 is what helps you understand what do people resonate with. 171 00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:50,000 And I've heard, so there's these two guys, Dickie Bush and Nicholas Cole have a course 172 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,940 called Ship 30 for 30. 173 00:09:51,940 --> 00:09:54,980 And it's a 30 day writing challenge type course. 174 00:09:54,980 --> 00:09:56,620 And then they have a bunch of stuff on the back end. 175 00:09:56,620 --> 00:10:00,780 So I went through that a while ago and they had this phrase in that course that it was 176 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:05,220 something like make noise and or what was it now? 177 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:07,260 Make noise, listen for feedback, I think something like that. 178 00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:10,580 And so it's essentially like put stuff out there and see what bounces back to you. 179 00:10:10,580 --> 00:10:15,740 And this is something that you hear a lot in the creator space, but what you don't hear 180 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:18,820 so much that they've talked about more is that a lot of us, the way we do this is wrong. 181 00:10:18,820 --> 00:10:22,460 And so I certainly made this mistake a decade ago when I started blogging. 182 00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:26,380 I heard like, okay, the way you're supposed to do it is create content and then people 183 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:29,580 will resonate with certain stuff and you'll know you should double down on that. 184 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:32,000 I think we've all heard that advice before. 185 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:37,700 But where we go wrong sometimes is we publish content in a closed kind of forum. 186 00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:40,600 And so a podcast would be like, we don't start out with any audience. 187 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,940 It's not publishing to anywhere that anybody's going to find it. 188 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:46,760 Maybe we're doing a newsletter or a blog or like these are all channels that nobody is 189 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:48,340 ever going to find that work. 190 00:10:48,340 --> 00:10:50,420 And so we have no chance of actually getting feedback on it. 191 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:56,540 And so part of Dickie and Nicholas's premise was that they built their course around publishing 192 00:10:56,540 --> 00:11:00,540 on Twitter for 30 days, because you know, there is an audience of people on Twitter 193 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:03,860 that if you're publishing your content there, it's in an existing ecosystem. 194 00:11:03,860 --> 00:11:06,400 And that's where you're actually going to get feedback on your ideas. 195 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,540 And so I think a lot of times if you are saying like, want to come out of the gate strong 196 00:11:10,540 --> 00:11:15,420 with a podcast, I would start come up with a content list and whatever your social platform 197 00:11:15,420 --> 00:11:20,700 is, whether that's Instagram or TikTok or Twitter or X, as I suppose it's called now 198 00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:24,020 LinkedIn, like whatever it is, it can be any platform, pick one. 199 00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:27,740 And if you have a community there already, that's going to be much easier. 200 00:11:27,740 --> 00:11:32,660 But like just start like in the months before you start really developing your show content, 201 00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:35,580 like come up with the ideas first that are going to be a part of that show and just start 202 00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:38,220 like writing about those and publishing content about them. 203 00:11:38,220 --> 00:11:40,660 And that could be writing, could be video, whatever it is. 204 00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:44,620 But like get the ideas out there and see, you know, what gets other people's ears perking 205 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:45,620 up. 206 00:11:45,620 --> 00:11:48,460 And that's going to give you a much better starting point for, oh, I know there's interest 207 00:11:48,460 --> 00:11:49,460 in this. 208 00:11:49,460 --> 00:11:52,740 I've already seen, you know, that people that resonated with this and responded well to 209 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:53,740 this. 210 00:11:53,740 --> 00:11:56,020 It maybe opened up some conversations that I wouldn't have had otherwise. 211 00:11:56,020 --> 00:11:59,460 That gives me a more nuanced perspective on the content or on the idea. 212 00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:03,660 And then now I'm able to make a much better episode from day one on that topic leading 213 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:04,660 up to it. 214 00:12:04,660 --> 00:12:07,340 And, you know, a potential side effect as well is that you start to build, even if it's 215 00:12:07,340 --> 00:12:10,540 a fairly small audience that you can then launch to on launch day. 216 00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:16,220 So I think like for me, it, a hundred percent of the ideas, both from the show itself, but 217 00:12:16,220 --> 00:12:20,620 also the episodes are way undervalued, the importance of ideas. 218 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:24,700 And so I would like start working on the ideas and like the medium that they come out could 219 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:25,700 be anything. 220 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:30,020 You know, the same idea that could go behind a great, you know, many true crime podcasts 221 00:12:30,020 --> 00:12:32,820 could also be great investigative journalist articles. 222 00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:36,340 Then a lot of investigative journalists move to podcasting because it's an interesting 223 00:12:36,340 --> 00:12:37,500 medium, but they could also be written. 224 00:12:37,500 --> 00:12:38,900 They could also be visual. 225 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:42,960 And so I think the ideas behind your show can come out in many ways and bite-sized forms 226 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,340 and you know, longer blog posts, newsletters, whatever. 227 00:12:45,340 --> 00:12:49,900 I think there are ways to test those earlier on than before you putting the time into the 228 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:50,900 production. 229 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:57,180 That makes a lot of sense, but I'm curious whenever it comes to, you know, actually starting 230 00:12:57,180 --> 00:13:00,900 the podcast, if we're, you know, obviously we're talking about podcasting. 231 00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:05,140 So if you're actually starting a podcast, do you think it's better to start a podcast 232 00:13:05,140 --> 00:13:09,220 with all your ideation and trying to get, you know, feedback and figuring out what people 233 00:13:09,220 --> 00:13:14,820 think and then possibly fail and move on to pivot to a new podcast? 234 00:13:14,820 --> 00:13:19,420 Or should you keep what it's currently called, get all that feedback and then just kind of 235 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:20,420 ride with it? 236 00:13:20,420 --> 00:13:21,420 What do you think is better? 237 00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:26,500 Yeah, I think it depends on your savviness and experience around content creation. 238 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:32,140 So I added this up the other day and what are we in? 239 00:13:32,140 --> 00:13:33,140 2023 right now. 240 00:13:33,140 --> 00:13:37,940 So I think I've been creating content in some form or another for 15 years probably. 241 00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:42,580 And I think I've done something like 10 blogs, at least five newsletters. 242 00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:43,860 I've had four podcasts. 243 00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:48,420 I have done a couple of YouTube like mini series, things like that. 244 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:50,700 And most of them haven't really gained traction. 245 00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:54,060 Like it's only in the past few years that I've actually like understood. 246 00:13:54,060 --> 00:13:55,060 There's been two things for me. 247 00:13:55,060 --> 00:13:59,580 I've understood the mechanics of creating a good premise of a, we'll call it a show, 248 00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:01,540 but it could be a newsletter as well. 249 00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:05,180 Could be a YouTube channel, but like having a premise around your work that is hooky and 250 00:14:05,180 --> 00:14:06,460 engaging to people. 251 00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:08,460 That was a big thing I was missing for a long time. 252 00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:13,260 Also just like developing the skills to do something well takes a long, long time. 253 00:14:13,260 --> 00:14:20,180 So like I have probably written 500 to a thousand blog posts over the past 15 years. 254 00:14:20,180 --> 00:14:23,680 I have, I haven't created, I've written much more than I've podcasted, but I've done probably 255 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,660 several hundred podcast episodes. 256 00:14:25,660 --> 00:14:30,660 Like getting the reps in, I think there should be an expectation of anyone who wants to create 257 00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:31,800 content. 258 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:37,320 Let's just call it professionally that you don't become a professional in any field imaginable 259 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,240 without significant time investment. 260 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,820 And so for me, I would say if you're just getting into podcasting and you're excited 261 00:14:42,820 --> 00:14:47,420 about the medium and you want to explore it, I would spend less time worrying about getting 262 00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:48,420 it perfect. 263 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:51,260 And I would just want to figure out like, what are the mechanics of doing this well? 264 00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:54,540 So I want to pick a topic I'm interested in that I like interviewing people. 265 00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:57,680 I know I'm not going to be that good an interviewer early on it, or maybe I'm doing narrative 266 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,640 or solo or whatever, but I just know I'm not going to be the best at this right now, but 267 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,460 I'm going to get in my first hundred episodes and I'm just going to like do this. 268 00:15:05,460 --> 00:15:08,620 And maybe this show becomes something that's really interesting and I can like mold this 269 00:15:08,620 --> 00:15:09,620 over time. 270 00:15:09,620 --> 00:15:12,620 But I think this is totally something you can do is that the place you start does not 271 00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:14,540 need to be the place you end. 272 00:15:14,540 --> 00:15:19,220 And like I've gone back and listened to the initial episodes of this American life, you 273 00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:25,480 know, one of the cultural touchstones of podcasting, certainly the culture as a whole as well. 274 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:26,740 And they are almost unlistening. 275 00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:32,660 If you start out with the newer episodes, the it is, it is not really interesting content. 276 00:15:32,660 --> 00:15:37,320 Like it's, you can see that, okay, I can see the DNA of what it became, but it took a number 277 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,300 of episodes and I think I gave up, I like listened to the first like two or three and 278 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,860 I was like, okay, this is not actually by today's standards. 279 00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:45,860 Maybe it was better back then. 280 00:15:45,860 --> 00:15:48,860 Like certainly there's something here, but then I skipped ahead to like episode 40 and 281 00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:51,800 I was like, okay, now it's getting closer to what we know as this American life. 282 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,700 And so of course, like with anything you start, even what I found is like I've started like 283 00:15:56,700 --> 00:16:01,060 creative projects that had a solid premise had, you know, I was a skilled writer or whatever. 284 00:16:01,060 --> 00:16:05,460 And I realized like 50 episodes later, I think of my one newsletter that took me like a hundred 285 00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:08,900 issues of writing it where I was like, oh, I actually understand what this finally is 286 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:09,900 now. 287 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:13,180 This was not my podcasting newsletter, but my other one, uh, creative wayfinding. 288 00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:15,380 It took me two years of writing it every single week. 289 00:16:15,380 --> 00:16:16,820 I maybe I never missed a week. 290 00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:20,800 I think I like took a couple off for holidays, but it was like finally kind of like, oh, 291 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,360 this is what this was always meant to be. 292 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,840 And I just couldn't see it until I got some perspective on it and got a bunch of stuff 293 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,840 out there. 294 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,900 And so I think like that's a totally viable path to take. 295 00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:35,500 And to me, I think that expectation management is a huge part of like success in being a 296 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:37,420 creator or a business owner or anything. 297 00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:41,380 And just like understanding that like you wouldn't expect to pick up the cello today 298 00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:45,180 and six months from now be playing, you know, to an audience of a thousand people. 299 00:16:45,180 --> 00:16:48,580 Like that just seems ridiculous to any of us or pick up a set of golf clubs and you're 300 00:16:48,580 --> 00:16:52,300 going to be playing professionally five years from now even. 301 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:56,180 And so I think like thinking about content in that perspective where there's so much 302 00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:59,620 competition, there's so many incredibly skilled people out there. 303 00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:03,700 Like we all need to put in the work and learn like what actually makes this good and find 304 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:04,780 the way to hone our ideas. 305 00:17:04,780 --> 00:17:09,300 So I sometimes feel like a bit of a downer for saying that, but I think I personally 306 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:12,900 would always rather like know that if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to see results 307 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:16,640 overnight and I would rather expect going in that like this is going to take me a few 308 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:17,640 years. 309 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,260 So I better pick something that I'm actually excited to do on a daily basis before I get 310 00:17:21,260 --> 00:17:24,220 to whatever my idea of success is. 311 00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:26,100 I don't think that's a downer at all. 312 00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:29,060 I think it's important that people know the facts because you know, when people get into 313 00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:30,740 this, it has a lot of work. 314 00:17:30,740 --> 00:17:35,340 And so I guess my question for you would be, you know, going back to the American life 315 00:17:35,340 --> 00:17:36,520 example that you brought up. 316 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,620 So it sounds like what they did is they kept all their early episodes up and they kept 317 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:42,980 the name over time. 318 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:47,700 But what do you think about like, should someone really focus that much on the name or should 319 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:53,100 they just kind of just start and if they need to start a new one with a new name, that's 320 00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:54,100 okay too. 321 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:56,660 Which do you think is the better camp to go into? 322 00:17:56,660 --> 00:18:03,340 Yeah, I think I usually err on the side of don't overthink anything. 323 00:18:03,340 --> 00:18:05,260 I think like the idea. 324 00:18:05,260 --> 00:18:09,860 Yeah, it's I feel like nothing really matters early on. 325 00:18:09,860 --> 00:18:15,920 Like if you say if you're going to make the decision, say like, okay, I'm a creative person 326 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,980 and I need to express myself or I have a business and I need to market it. 327 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:21,420 And that is always going to be true. 328 00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:23,160 Both of those things are always going to be true. 329 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,140 So I'm going to be doing this for a while. 330 00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:29,500 There's no like exit here where I achieve this incredible success and now I never do 331 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:30,500 it again. 332 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:33,780 Like I think anybody who's done had any kind of like creative success knows like you do 333 00:18:33,780 --> 00:18:36,780 something and the reward is getting to do more of it. 334 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:39,460 And so I think that's where this idea comes back in. 335 00:18:39,460 --> 00:18:41,900 Part of it is like picking something that you just want to do more of. 336 00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:45,540 The reward for it being successful is not that you can now never have to do it again. 337 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:48,580 It's that you get to do more of it and you get to spend more time on it. 338 00:18:48,580 --> 00:18:52,620 And so I think thinking about that kind of sets you up. 339 00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:55,980 Like, okay, if I'm going to be doing this for a long time, then probably I'm going to 340 00:18:55,980 --> 00:18:57,100 change as a person. 341 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:58,300 The world is going to change around me. 342 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:00,460 There are going to be changes that happen here. 343 00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:03,740 And so I'm going to make the best choice that I can make right now. 344 00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:08,520 Knowing what I know for title, for cover art, for episode content, for premise of the show, 345 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,520 all that kind of stuff. 346 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,940 I'm going to like make a decision and just start doing it and see how it fits out and 347 00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:15,000 works out for me. 348 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,180 And sometimes you'll notice early on that like, okay, some of this feels kind of awkward. 349 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:20,980 I don't really like the way these interviews are going or I don't really like talking about 350 00:19:20,980 --> 00:19:21,980 this content. 351 00:19:21,980 --> 00:19:25,900 I think I could sustain it, but either, you know, this show is not the right show for 352 00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:27,980 me, which I've certainly done. 353 00:19:27,980 --> 00:19:31,580 Or the show is like needs some tweaking and I'm going to keep the same name and everything, 354 00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:33,740 but I'm going to steer it in a different direction. 355 00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:37,260 Or maybe there's somewhere in between where it's like, okay, like I think I'm going to 356 00:19:37,260 --> 00:19:41,420 rebrand the show and it's still kind of related, but it's not as focused as I'd like to be. 357 00:19:41,420 --> 00:19:44,500 We're going in the same audience, but slightly different direction here. 358 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:48,780 And I think a new name would actually serve better and do a kind of brand refresh. 359 00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:55,140 And I think like for most people where the more successful you are, the more risk there 360 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:56,780 is in rebranding. 361 00:19:56,780 --> 00:20:00,860 And so for a lot of people, like if you've built it up to the point where it's actually 362 00:20:00,860 --> 00:20:04,420 really risky to change the brand name, it's kind of, you could make the argument a good 363 00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:06,820 problem to have because you've already found traction. 364 00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:08,820 You have an audience and things like that. 365 00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:13,120 Whereas I think for most people, I always think back to the, there's a quote by one 366 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:14,120 of the Google founders. 367 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:18,620 Like, I don't know if it was a Sergey or Larry, but it was kind of like early on at Google, 368 00:20:18,620 --> 00:20:23,860 they didn't, they actively did not want people to discover Google because they knew that 369 00:20:23,860 --> 00:20:26,440 Google tomorrow is going to be better than Google today. 370 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,060 And so I'd rather they discovered me tomorrow when it's actually better. 371 00:20:29,060 --> 00:20:32,820 And I think about that every single day where I'm just like, yeah, I know my brand isn't 372 00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:33,820 where I want it to be at. 373 00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:35,380 My content isn't as good as I want it to be at. 374 00:20:35,380 --> 00:20:36,800 So I'm kind of like, okay. 375 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,700 And I can see the vision in my mind, like, man, a year from now it's going to be so much 376 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:41,700 better. 377 00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:45,300 So like on one hand, I would love to have the listeners and the subscribers now, but 378 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:49,300 also I know I'm going to make a better first impression, you know, further into the future 379 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:51,220 and like things are going to be tighter. 380 00:20:51,220 --> 00:20:54,820 And so keeping that in mind, I think is like another, at least for me, it's helpful in 381 00:20:54,820 --> 00:20:58,120 thinking about, you know, playing the long game and not putting too much stock in where 382 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,100 things are at right now, because hopefully it's going to be better in the future. 383 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:06,380 So it sounds like we almost need to stop focusing so much on what's going to happen in several 384 00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:11,060 years, but just get out there, fail fast and get the feedback. 385 00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:12,740 Yeah, a hundred percent. 386 00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:16,180 And I think like one of the things, you know, this brings up the topic of engagement, which 387 00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:17,900 every podcaster struggles with. 388 00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:22,720 I personally am a huge fan of initiating engagement rather than waiting for it to come to you. 389 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,440 So whether or not they're existing listeners of your show, putting yourself and being an 390 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,700 active member of a community around that your topic of your show is revolves around, like 391 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:34,800 not creating your own community, going out and being a part of someone else's. 392 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,260 I think that's the way to just embed yourself in the conversation that's happening. 393 00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:40,880 And like people will naturally find their way to your show through that, but you'll 394 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:46,040 also be able to, you know, be plugged into what's happening in that space and it's going 395 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,040 to shape your own content. 396 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,660 You're going to be able to like have more ideas more readily that come up with the show. 397 00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:53,860 And I think that, you know, then you're able, you're kind of like, you're not waiting for 398 00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:57,740 listeners to, to come to you and respond with you because like, if you're already a member 399 00:21:57,740 --> 00:22:01,880 of that community and then those people discover your show, you already have a relationship 400 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:02,880 with them. 401 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,660 And so they're probably going to much more naturally talk about your show because they 402 00:22:04,660 --> 00:22:06,760 already know you now they know your content. 403 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,520 And I think that that's where things start to like click a lot more and it becomes a 404 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,460 lot, a lot less like you're, you know, broadcasting, you know, into the void and you're kind of 405 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:19,460 just like plugging into an existing conversation that's already happening. 406 00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:22,740 Can you give me an example of what you mean by plugging into a community you're already 407 00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:24,020 part of? 408 00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:27,220 So for me, this has really happened through Twitter. 409 00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:30,420 It has also happened in other places as well. 410 00:22:30,420 --> 00:22:34,340 And I suppose I'm just going to defiantly go ahead and keep calling it Twitter at this 411 00:22:34,340 --> 00:22:35,340 point. 412 00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:42,020 Um, so a few years ago, I, I had always, and I know that a lot of the data shows that podcasters 413 00:22:42,020 --> 00:22:46,480 are most active on Instagram, but I just like hated Instagram myself. 414 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,700 And so I like tried hard to make Instagram work for me to build a community of podcasters 415 00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:52,700 there. 416 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,940 Instagram as a platform is also less communal than Twitter. 417 00:22:55,940 --> 00:22:58,060 And so I moved to Twitter just for my own. 418 00:22:58,060 --> 00:23:00,660 There were people I liked on there, even if they weren't in the podcasting space, but 419 00:23:00,660 --> 00:23:04,860 it seemed like around the same time, 2020, 2021, there's a lot of like the podcasting 420 00:23:04,860 --> 00:23:06,500 community on Twitter was growing. 421 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:10,460 And so I just, I talked about podcasting on Twitter, but I also interacted with a ton 422 00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:13,540 of other people who were in the podcasting space on Twitter. 423 00:23:13,540 --> 00:23:16,340 And there's this kind of natural community that forms around that. 424 00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:19,900 When the people you follow, you're just like, and you know, I do this on LinkedIn now too, 425 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,700 is like, there's a bunch of people I find genuinely interesting. 426 00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:23,700 They're friends. 427 00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:24,700 I like their content. 428 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:25,700 They're smart people. 429 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:26,700 They have interesting things to say. 430 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:27,940 And so I spend a lot of time. 431 00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:32,740 I typically spend more time engaging with their content than I do coming up with creating 432 00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:33,740 my own. 433 00:23:33,740 --> 00:23:36,940 And so like I became friends with tons of people in the podcast space, which is what 434 00:23:36,940 --> 00:23:38,420 I create content around. 435 00:23:38,420 --> 00:23:42,340 And so what happens is like, I've got exposure to their audiences who are also interested 436 00:23:42,340 --> 00:23:46,180 in podcasting, who then may subscribe to my newsletter, but also all the other people 437 00:23:46,180 --> 00:23:50,740 who are also publishing content will do cross promotions together, or we'll do panels together, 438 00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:52,960 or we'll shout out each other's newsletters and things like this. 439 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,320 And so that's kind of like, it's not a gated, like Facebook group type community. 440 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,740 It's just like an open conversation happening out there in the world because other people 441 00:24:00,740 --> 00:24:04,300 are also creating content that you can chime in on and they'll chime in on yours. 442 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:08,300 And there's all this kind of like web of just discussion around, you know, whatever your 443 00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:09,300 topic is. 444 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:13,420 And I think if you can find that or I would, I was going to say, or create it, I would 445 00:24:13,420 --> 00:24:17,180 recommend early on finding that because it's really hard to kickstart that yourself and 446 00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:18,460 just like plug into that. 447 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:21,900 Even if you're like offering a different kind of unique take on this, which, you know, hopefully 448 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:25,380 you should be, that's going to be that way that you can like find something that's already 449 00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:27,460 going on and just like plugging yourself into it. 450 00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:31,580 And it's kind of like, you already know there's a tension concentrated around those, that 451 00:24:31,580 --> 00:24:32,580 conversation. 452 00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:36,660 And so now you've like put yourself in the way of people's eyeballs and ear holes so 453 00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:40,300 that they're much more likely to find you and your show as a result. 454 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:41,300 That makes complete sense. 455 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:45,460 And I mean, you know, there's so many groups out there in every different niche and so 456 00:24:45,460 --> 00:24:46,700 many forums you could go on. 457 00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:51,060 I mean, you know, something completely random like taxidermy, there's a whole Reddit thread 458 00:24:51,060 --> 00:24:54,940 on taxidermy and, and you could create an entire podcast all about that. 459 00:24:54,940 --> 00:24:56,300 And I'm sure someone already has. 460 00:24:56,300 --> 00:25:01,500 And so I like the idea of going and finding what already exists and seeing how you can 461 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:06,020 not dominate the conversation, but participate in it and figure out, you know, what your 462 00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:10,580 audience even wants to hear, because I'm sure that's a great place to get all that research 463 00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:13,500 for what you're going to even talk about. 464 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:21,100 And I think, yeah, for me, the, I highly promote audience research and I also highly resist 465 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:25,340 it as a creator because it sounds boring and you know, I don't really want to do it and 466 00:25:25,340 --> 00:25:26,740 I don't make time for it all the time. 467 00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:30,100 I'll do sprints of it sometimes when there's something I know, like I don't really know 468 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:35,060 this and I need to find out so that I can, you know, do this test over here or whatever. 469 00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:39,100 But I think when you focus on, for me, like what, what unlocked it for me was like, okay, 470 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:40,700 my goal here is not networking. 471 00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:41,920 It's not audience research. 472 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,040 It's making friends. 473 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,080 And like, I'm going to go where there are people who are interesting to me, who I like 474 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,940 and I admire and I respect, and I'm going to hang out with them. 475 00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:53,140 And you end up both doing audience research and networking while actually kind of it's 476 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:56,780 like packaged in this like Russian nesting doll of like making friends. 477 00:25:56,780 --> 00:25:58,180 And it's like, oh, I can make friends. 478 00:25:58,180 --> 00:26:00,260 I like talking with people about podcasting. 479 00:26:00,260 --> 00:26:03,740 I like talking with people about marketing, about course creation and product creation 480 00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:05,140 and all these things. 481 00:26:05,140 --> 00:26:09,340 And by just being a person who contributes to those conversations and is regularly active 482 00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:13,540 there, whether that's creating my own content, you know, be that, you know, posts on LinkedIn 483 00:26:13,540 --> 00:26:18,540 or Twitter or newsletters or podcasts or whatever it is, like that just like increases people's 484 00:26:18,540 --> 00:26:20,140 exposure to me. 485 00:26:20,140 --> 00:26:23,860 But also it increases my exposure to like what's going on in the space and the general 486 00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:27,940 vibe so that I can kind of create content that is more relevant to what people are asking 487 00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:32,080 about and looking for and how people are feeling and all that kind of stuff. 488 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,820 So everything you're describing though, sounds like it's going to take so much time. 489 00:26:36,820 --> 00:26:40,740 So what do you say to the would be podcaster who comes to you and is like, man, I don't 490 00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:42,380 know how I'm going to have time for all this. 491 00:26:42,380 --> 00:26:44,620 What would you say to them? 492 00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:49,420 I mean, I think that's like a real thing that people need to understand is like there is 493 00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:50,660 no shortcut. 494 00:26:50,660 --> 00:26:55,380 Like you need to be able to invest a certain amount of time to have success in most fields. 495 00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:58,900 Like there are certainly some niches where there's just nothing else. 496 00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:01,940 And so like if you can create just like a half baked show, like you're going to get 497 00:27:01,940 --> 00:27:03,440 your listeners there. 498 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,840 Those are very, very, very rare niches that, you know, there aren't very many of those. 499 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,260 So I wouldn't like put my hopes on any of that. 500 00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:13,080 But I think that that's one of the big reasons that people quit is because they get into 501 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,020 podcasting and they realize this is takes way more. 502 00:27:16,020 --> 00:27:19,220 I thought I was going to be like, I show up for an interview, like do you know, maybe 503 00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:20,260 I do an hour on the interview. 504 00:27:20,260 --> 00:27:24,220 I do an hour of editing and then half an hour of like publishing and whatever else. 505 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:26,420 And it usually does not work out that way. 506 00:27:26,420 --> 00:27:31,220 And so I think why one of the reasons like a lot of people who have success podcasting, 507 00:27:31,220 --> 00:27:35,220 they're creating shows around topics that they're already active members of the community. 508 00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:38,000 So they don't have to like, it doesn't become work at that point. 509 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,040 And so like for me with Twitter, like that was not time spent researching. 510 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,900 That was time spent procrastinating on other stuff because I like enjoyed being on there. 511 00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:49,420 And it's like, I would rather like shirk off work and just go like chat about my favorite 512 00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:51,420 topic here for 30 minutes. 513 00:27:51,420 --> 00:27:53,860 And you know, 30 minutes a day isn't a huge amount. 514 00:27:53,860 --> 00:27:57,540 It's not nothing, but when it feels actually fun to catch up with people that you like 515 00:27:57,540 --> 00:28:01,940 and you know, enjoy talking about topics that you like, it's not like an onerous thing. 516 00:28:01,940 --> 00:28:05,580 And so I think part of that is like finding a topic that you actually feel that for that 517 00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:10,060 you want to spend more time thinking about and talking about it, which I think most podcasters, 518 00:28:10,060 --> 00:28:12,540 they are creating shows about those topics. 519 00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:17,540 But then there's also just like this recognition that usually the people I see who are trying 520 00:28:17,540 --> 00:28:22,580 to cut every corner imaginable from a time perspective are not the successful ones. 521 00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:28,440 And so I think, I mean like I spend, I don't know, many hours a week creating content. 522 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,340 My one newsletter, and now I've kind of like shaved it down a little bit because it was 523 00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:34,500 getting, I do two newsletters, which is a little bit overwhelming. 524 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:38,660 The one for many, the first year and a half, I probably spent like 12 hours a week creating 525 00:28:38,660 --> 00:28:39,660 that. 526 00:28:39,660 --> 00:28:43,500 And then the other shows that I created, it took like 20 hours per episode, which ultimately 527 00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:47,660 ended up being unsustainable for, because I was also doing the 10 to 15 hour a week 528 00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:50,260 newsletter at the same time, plus running a business. 529 00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:55,380 But I think like sometimes I know I as a creator, which is, you know, a lot of people get into 530 00:28:55,380 --> 00:29:00,380 this mistake who identifies creators as well, want to do, start too many things. 531 00:29:00,380 --> 00:29:03,840 And so one of the things that I've over the past kind of three years really been whittling 532 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,980 away at like, okay, what's the one thing I really want to commit to and do that really 533 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:12,380 well and invest the time there rather than trying to do all these different things and 534 00:29:12,380 --> 00:29:13,380 actually running out of time. 535 00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:17,340 And so like I've, at least for the summer said, okay, I'm not doing social media anymore 536 00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:18,340 at all. 537 00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:21,420 I'm just like, I spent so much time on there, but, and it's been, I've got a lot of benefits 538 00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:25,240 out of it, but it's reached the point where it's inhibiting the newsletter and other things 539 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:26,240 like that. 540 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,560 And so I'm going to like for the next few months, like really focus on the newsletter 541 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,360 and make like optimizing that and you know, getting that to where I am, you know, feel 542 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,840 like it needs to be right now. 543 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,240 And then maybe once that becomes kind of muscle memory, building some like out some new things 544 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,460 around that, then I can expand into something else. 545 00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:46,660 But I think a lot of times like I would focus on, you know, if you are starting out with 546 00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:51,240 a podcast, like focus on creating a great show and talking with people and like, don't 547 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,300 worry too much about repurposing content and all this other stuff that can easily add up 548 00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:59,180 hours and hours and hours, because probably that's not going to have a huge effect right 549 00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:03,640 now until you get to the point where when you talk to somebody who is your ideal listener 550 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,620 and you like give them your one sentence description of your show and they're like eyes light up 551 00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:11,080 immediately and they like pull out their phones to subscribe on the spot so that they don't 552 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:12,080 forget about it. 553 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,680 Like if you can, when you get to that point, that's the time when it's like, okay, now 554 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,040 I just need to really ramp up my exposure because if I'm getting that reaction consistently, 555 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,960 that means that I'm not having to work really hard at all the other marketing stuff. 556 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,900 It's like I can get this in front of people, they get what the show is about and now I'm 557 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:30,360 going to spend more time on all the discoverability and exposure side of things. 558 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:36,120 Wow, so it sounds like, I mean, because when we sat down, we were talking about a roadmap 559 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,220 to success, but it sounds like there's so many decisions that have to be made before 560 00:30:40,220 --> 00:30:43,120 you can even figure out what your destination even is. 561 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,920 Would you say that's appropriate? 562 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:51,520 Yeah, I mean, just like, so my one newsletter that's not podcasting related is called Creative 563 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:57,240 Wayfinding and really what, this is the one that took me like two years to figure out 564 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,840 what it's about and I still struggle to talk about it, which makes it hard to market, which 565 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,760 is one of the ongoing things now three years in almost 200 issues in, still working at 566 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:06,760 it. 567 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,780 But really it's more about like the internal side of like making and marketing creative 568 00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:17,480 work and there are so many tactical things that we all latch onto and I kind of think 569 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,080 of this as like there's this flip side, this like above ground and below ground and the 570 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,080 above ground is all the stuff we can see, the tactics, the strategies and the below 571 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,720 ground is all the internal stuff that totally does kind of influence everything that we 572 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,240 do and we're kind of on this like this journey where we need to make the journey on both 573 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,940 sides of that equation, that line, the above ground and the below ground. 574 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:43,380 And I think a lot of times we try to compensate for a lack of clarity about what we want or 575 00:31:43,380 --> 00:31:48,480 like what the content that we are uniquely capable of creating and should be creating 576 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,280 and we see, oh, this is popular right now, so I should create something like that or 577 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,840 oh, podcast collaborations, that's the way to grow. So we latch onto all these things 578 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,120 and we're not actually in tune with like, why am I doing the show and like what about 579 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,800 me is going to come out in the show that will make this the show that only I could possibly 580 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,360 create and so I think a lot of times like coming back to doing a lot of the work to 581 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,000 figure out first, like you mentioned the destination, I think that's a really a question that we 582 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,920 should have some idea when we're starting out, like why am I doing the show in the first 583 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,720 place and why am I the right person to be doing the show? Why is a podcast the right 584 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:26,160 medium for this idea? I think a lot of people don't have clarity on those answers, which 585 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,520 makes for like when you don't, those are all like the internal side of things and when 586 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,480 you don't have those answers, nothing you do on the other side of the equation will 587 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,920 actually work. Like because you don't have clarity at the core of like, what makes this 588 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,680 worth listening to? Why should somebody pay attention to me and this show and why is this 589 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:47,280 the right decision for me? And so I think a lot about like sorting that stuff out. It's 590 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,520 usually not possible to get a absolute clear answer on that probably ever. If anybody is 591 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,740 ever who's listening to this, like just had absolute clarity on everything on the internal 592 00:32:56,740 --> 00:33:00,720 side of things in their life, I would love to hear from you and what your secret is, 593 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,720 but I feel like for me, it's always like a best guess in like a general direction. Like 594 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,740 I know I want to go in this direction and I can see how this podcast might be a good 595 00:33:07,740 --> 00:33:11,700 vehicle to help me get there, but then you do it for a year and you realize, ah, well, 596 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,760 that actually wasn't quite where I wanted to go. So I need to course correct a little 597 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,320 bit and take it in a different direction. So a lot of times I just think about it as 598 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,840 such a, like a fluid process and I think we don't tend to like that. I don't think like 599 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,280 people don't like uncertainty. They don't like discomfort, which is what this is. And 600 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,880 so I think that's a huge part of the challenge is being able to tolerate uncertainty and 601 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,240 discomfort and still put something out there that is good and that you believe in, but 602 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,760 that you know is like always going to be evolving and changing and that you're never going to 603 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,880 have the absolute answer on it, even though sometimes we do think we stumble onto it. 604 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,320 And then probably six months later, we realized, oh, that wasn't quite it. 605 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:55,120 So it sounds like everything that you've said, and again, back to the map analogy, sounds 606 00:33:55,120 --> 00:34:00,040 like you're having one of those journey matters more than the destination moment. 607 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,960 Oh, yeah. Don't even get me started on the journey and expedition metaphors. So that's 608 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:13,880 my whole one newsletter basically. But I think like when I think about like, what does creative 609 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,000 success look like to me? And so I identify both as a creator and an entrepreneur and 610 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,280 a marketer and all these things. And I think about like, okay, so let's say that I was 611 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,580 able to build up my company and sell it for whatever huge number, huge amount of money 612 00:34:27,580 --> 00:34:31,120 that means I never have to work again. What am I going to do the very next day? What does 613 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,520 that mean? I am as a creative person, I am going to find a creative project to work on 614 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,400 immediately. And I'm not going to be able to like, I will feel uncomfortable not doing 615 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,360 that. And so for me, part of that is like, well, how do I take that energy, whatever 616 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,880 that is that if I didn't have to work, what would I be doing? And maybe I don't have the 617 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,640 time or the budget or whatever it is to do that exact version of it right now. But how 618 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,840 can I work some of that into what I'm doing right now? And in my experience, like that 619 00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,880 actually creates the shows, even if they're like a business marketing tool that are actually 620 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:05,080 worth listening to because there's something unique about like you and your energy that 621 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,560 you're bringing to this that people can't find anywhere else. And so I think, no, I 622 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,960 don't think we any of us actually wants the destination. I think we think we do. But like 623 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,760 what the only not to get like morbid here, but the only final destination is death here. 624 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,200 Like whether we have some we are going to fill that time with something. And I think 625 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,840 if you're a creative person, you're going to be doing creative work. So how can you 626 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,880 just start doing that now so that you don't even want to get to the destination? It's 627 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,200 like that, like I said before, the benefit is getting to keep doing more of that thing. 628 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,680 And so I think too many of us like sometimes come up with this idea of like, well, if I 629 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,280 do this really well, then I'm going to reach the end point and then I won't have to do 630 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,520 it again, which is kind of like, well, why are we doing it in the first place? If part 631 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:49,180 of this is like a hobby or something we enjoy, like we should want if you don't want to keep 632 00:35:49,180 --> 00:35:53,400 doing this, probably you're working on the wrong show is usually how I think about it. 633 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,200 That's a really interesting way to think about it actually, because I mean, you know, one 634 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,680 of the biggest things that I've been reading about lately is celebrities that finally achieve 635 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,400 all their dreams and goals and then they become depressed. They worked so hard to get there. 636 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,440 And then once they were there, it was like, now what? So I like the idea of, well, making 637 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,720 your destination almost a moving target. 638 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:18,800 Yeah. And yeah, I think there's like one of the things that I, one of the things that 639 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:25,240 I like about content creation, which is like both attached to my business and also I have 640 00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:28,080 like one newsletter that's much more attached to my business, which is scrappy podcasting. 641 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,680 And then I have another newsletter, which has no products or services or monetization 642 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,600 attached to it at all. And one of the things that I've realized is like, I enjoy doing 643 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,280 scrappy podcasting way more when I bring over the stuff from creative wayfinding and some 644 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,760 of the ideas that feel kind of like we're talking about here that they're less about 645 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,460 like podcast marketing, but they're more about this, like, we're all trying to create stuff 646 00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:53,800 and build audiences while also trying to like be fulfilled as creative people and, you know, 647 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,600 feed our families and all that kind of stuff. 648 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,240 And I think that that can all live together. And I think that's the really hard part of 649 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:05,720 marketing and content creation is like finding out because you like almost by definition, 650 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,680 you can't take somebody else's template for that because you're a different person. You 651 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,120 have a slightly different audience, you have different goals. And so figuring out how to 652 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,800 blend all of that together in a unique and compelling way, that's both fulfilling for 653 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,560 you, but also beneficial to other people. Like that's some of the art and like magic, 654 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:26,480 I think of marketing and creative work. But I think like, if you can land on that, that's 655 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:32,080 I think the sweet spot that we're all looking for. And I know that I've done this countless 656 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:38,240 times is that we look at what is already successful and we think I need to be more like that rather 657 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,440 than saying like, what do I want to see? And like, what would be fulfilling for me to create 658 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:48,200 that is also, you know, belongs in this world that like other people in this space might 659 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,800 also be interested in. And like, that's actually the thing that's probably more likely to be 660 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,360 successful. And like, I'll give you an example. I have had so many people who've joined my 661 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,600 course who got inspired to start podcasts by Amy Porterfield. Now hers was one of the 662 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,880 first shows that I ever listened to. And I owe a lot of my like, online business career 663 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,880 to her and to Pat Flynn and all these people. Tim Ferriss is another common one where people 664 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:15,840 like get inspired by his show and basically create copycat shows. And what nobody realizes 665 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:20,880 is why would I listen to your Amy Porterfield clone show when I could just listen to the 666 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,820 real thing over here? Like if you're not doing anything differently or Tim Ferriss, a Tim 667 00:38:24,820 --> 00:38:29,440 Ferriss clone show, he has access to way more interesting people. He's a much better interviewer. 668 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,280 He has a much broader field of knowledge and like, nobody can possibly compete with that. 669 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:39,120 And so what would be more interesting is to say like, okay, well, she has, you know, some 670 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,560 format here. Tim has some format here that's maybe a little bit interesting, but I don't 671 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,200 have any of these advantages that they have. I don't have their personality. And the reason, 672 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,920 a big part of the reason that it works for them is because of something that's entirely 673 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:55,520 non-replicable. And so I need to find out what is that that I can bring to my show that 674 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,320 is going to differentiate that. And so I think that's, you know, that's the thing that I 675 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:04,300 like working with people with. It's not something you can like write a blog post on and say 676 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:08,320 like, here's the five steps to like, figure out that unique thing within yourself that 677 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,440 is like entirely magic and like, can't, you can't even put words to, I think like that's 678 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,180 a much more like interpersonal thing sometimes that we can get sometimes reflections from 679 00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:21,100 people around us. I often recommend like, just, you know, send an email to people, five 680 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,160 people that who really know you well and say like, you know, what do you think my unique 681 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,040 like strengths or abilities are that, what would you say that like is my kind of like 682 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,480 magic? And I would sometimes even put like words like that, even they might feel a little 683 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,240 like soft, but I think that sometimes when you put more tangible words to it, people 684 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,960 will give you, oh, you're really good at, you know, whatever hard skill. Whereas like, 685 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,840 when you almost frame it as a way of like, what's the intangible things about me that 686 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,600 like, you know, you find interesting or compelling or that I'm good at that other people aren't, 687 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,480 you'll get some really interesting things back from people. And that's, I think when 688 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,400 you can start to hear, when you start to hear the same things, then you say like, oh, this 689 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,520 needs to be the center of my show. Like this needs to be, the show needs to be built around 690 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,400 that skill or talent because it's the thing that's unique to me. And if it's compelling 691 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,160 to these people, probably it is to other people as well. 692 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,400 Wow. I mean, you've shared so many golden nuggets and I bet we've barely scratched the 693 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,120 surface of what you could riff on. So with that in mind, where can people find you online 694 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,240 to learn more all about your podcasting philosophies? 695 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:26,280 Yeah. So the best place is at podcastmarketingacademy.com. And so there you can find the Scrappy Podcasting 696 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,680 newsletter that we mentioned. I also have a free kind of self-serve audit of your marketing. 697 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,900 So you answer 20 questions and it'll give out a personalized kind of rating on each 698 00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:38,960 of the categories of your marketing and then give you some tips on what you can do to improve 699 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,760 in each of those areas. So podcastmarketingacademy.com is the best place. 700 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,840 Yeah. And people definitely need to subscribe to your newsletter. Because like I said, that's 701 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:53,080 where I first stumbled upon you and you share a lot of golden nuggets, more than we could 702 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:58,480 possibly fit into a quick podcast episode. So, but before I let you go, I got to ask 703 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,360 you the one question I ask everyone before I let them go. And that is what is one question 704 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,440 I didn't ask you really wish I had. 705 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:14,440 Hmm. And I feel like I really enjoyed this conversation. We got into a lot of like, usually, 706 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,160 so the typical question is I love, as you, as everybody here can now probably notice, 707 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:26,360 I love riffing on all the non-obvious, non-tactical internal stuff. And so that's usually my answer 708 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:33,560 to that type of question is all that stuff tends to get ignored. And I think it's basically 709 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,640 the whole of the challenge of doing creative work and marketing. I just came across a quote 710 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,680 this week that was, there's no such, or I think it's like, there are no business problems. 711 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,840 There are only mindset problems. I was like, oh, that feels pretty accurate hit home as 712 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,320 I'm like thinking about, I'm struggling with some kind of business problem. And I'm like, 713 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,840 oh yeah, it's probably all me mindset and emotional. So that would be my, you did, we 714 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,120 did get into that, but that's what I would say is worth thinking more about than a lot 715 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,160 of the tactical things. 716 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,280 That's really good stuff. I mean, one of my favorite mentors, Denise Duffield Thomas, 717 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,600 she always says, it doesn't matter what level of success you get to, it's new level, new 718 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,480 devil. And so no matter where you are in your business, you're going to have something that 719 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,040 comes up that you're going to have to think about. And so I like that we kind of went 720 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,560 all over the map. Back to the map analogy. I just want to thank you for being here because 721 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,080 everything you said, I think it's awesome. And I hope that people that are listening 722 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,140 to this, that they got something out of this that they can kind of take and use towards 723 00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:36,760 their own podcasting journey. Because in my opinion, podcasting is one of the best mediums 724 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,180 out there right now. And it's so, it's such an intimate medium. Like you learn so much 725 00:42:41,180 --> 00:42:46,420 from people and they're in your ears and I love the medium. So I really appreciate you 726 00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:48,920 being here and thank you. Just thank you. 727 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,080 Yeah. Thank you so much for having me Ashley. 728 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,400 We'll have to do it again sometime. 729 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,160 Yes, definitely. 730 00:42:55,160 --> 00:43:06,400 Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this 731 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:12,160 episode. To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to rss.com 732 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:17,240 backslash blog. And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started 733 00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:20,640 for free with your first episode on us. Thanks for tuning in.