Hey everyone, Ashley here with RSS.com.
In this episode, we're chatting with Jeremy Enns about whether or not there is an actual
roadmap in a person's podcasting journey.
Join us as we dive into the world of content creation, building in public, and finding
clarity and purpose as a podcaster.
Enjoy the show.
But I'm very excited to have you here.
I can't wait to chat about all the things.
So let's just dive into it.
So Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Can you do us a big favor and tell us what it is that you do?
So my name is Jeremy Enns.
I'm the founder of Podcast Marketing Academy, where essentially we help business owners
who are never going to be like the Mr. Beasts of the world, but develop really profitable
podcasts.
And here I'm using a YouTuber, but I think a lot of people in the creative space are
aspiring to be the best in the world, whatever that might be.
Joe Rogan's a little polarizing, so we'll go with somebody maybe a little less polarizing,
Mr. Beast.
But use content and podcasts specifically to build really profitable and sustainable
businesses.
And so I have a course based around that, a membership, and then also write the Scrappy
Podcasting Newsletter, where every week I share one kind of two minute tip to help you
punch above your weight as a small scrappy underdog podcaster.
Yes, and your Scrappy Podcasting Newsletter is actually kind of how you came onto my radar.
I'm not really sure how I ended up on that newsletter list.
But once I started reading it, I was just like, okay, this guy seems to know what he's
doing.
So that's why I just had to get you on the show because I'm just like, man, this guy
knows the stuff about podcasting.
And I'm kind of excited that you said Mr. Beast.
I'm a huge fan of his.
I saw today, like we're recording this in August, I'm about to go on a big road trip.
That's why we're recording it so early.
But I just saw today that he's actually being sued by the Mr. Beast Burger Company.
And it's just like, it's wild how he started with no viewers, no listeners, and people
listening right now might be in the same boat.
And now he's worth enough money that he's being sued for $100 million.
And it's just, it's insane to think his grassroots, how he began.
And now he's this like multi-million dollar conglomerate dude that like, and you wouldn't
think of that because it just, he was just on the internet doing his thing.
But that's kind of what we're all doing here.
So what I wanted to bring you on for is to talk about kind of the roadmap of what it
takes to go from scrappy podcaster to actually making some success.
Yeah.
So that's, I mean, that's a hundred percent what I love talking about.
And I think, you know, I think one of the things like talking about the idea of like
being scrappy was, I don't know where I initially came up across that kind of conception of
it or that word somewhere else.
I think in like startups, you often hear about like being a scrappy startup.
And I thought, ah, that's an interesting like mentality to bring into podcasting as well.
And one of the things is I think the most successful creators, business owners, like
keep that scrappy mentality forever, for always.
And so I think it's almost like not about like, you want to start with that mentality,
but it's not something that then you reach some level of success and you're like, well,
now I can just like coast on this.
And you know, some people do that and a lot of times they pay the price for that because
they're not like looking for, they're not continuing to experiment and looking for, you
know, well, this thing that is working right now might not work forever.
And which is almost always the case in marketing.
And so they're not looking at that next thing that's coming.
And when you get complacent, a lot of times, you know, you might've had some success to
get to this point and then you can't kind of maintain that in the long run.
That is definitely so true.
So let's kind of go backwards then for a person who is trying to get to that, but that end
destination of being successful where they maybe could coast on it someday, but not really.
Let's be honest.
What would you say to someone who comes to you and they're like, Jeremy, I want to start
a podcast.
What do I do, man?
Yeah.
So for me, I think it depends a lot on who the person is and what their goals are.
So I think somebody who is wanting to start a show that might become more of like a content
creator type show.
And so their goal is to create content that then attracts sponsors and advertisers.
That's a bit of a different roadmap from somebody who says, okay, I've got this business over
here.
I've got a product that I want to get people into.
And I know people talk about content marketing, you know, how do I make use of a podcast to,
you know, both grow an audience, but also convert an audience into customers or clients.
Those are two, you know, fairly different ways of approaching it.
But I think at the start, like it all boils down to the idea.
And I think that a lot of times, almost a hundred percent of the time, the idea that
you come up with for a show is not nearly good enough or polished enough to sustain
a show in the long run and actually achieve success with.
And so this is something that I think a lot of us indie creators, we look at, especially
in podcasting is kind of a weird medium because you have this like industry side of things
that is not really what most of us are plugging into where there are networks and there's
like NPR and the New York Times.
And like, we are not creating shows the way that they're creating shows.
And we don't have access to that whole, you know, existing reach and marketing apparatus
and budget.
And so a lot of us, because we're still in the same medium, though, that's what we compare
to.
And a lot of times indie podcasters and creators will take their cues from these big shows
and think, well, they're doing it that way.
And they're the best.
And so I should do it that way.
And that is you are entirely doing yourself a misservice if you are approaching that,
because like we don't have the resources to do that.
And I can think personally of like looking at years ago, Gary B and thinking like, oh,
that's the way to do content marketing where that is the way to do content marketing.
If you have a huge budget and you are looking to go beyond hundreds of thousands of people
and reach millions or tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people with your brand,
that's a very different thing from getting your first thousand people to follow you and
buy into your message.
And so I think the first thing we need to do is say like, OK, I'm not trying to do that.
That is something that is not attainable for me at this point, probably will never be.
And that's OK.
That's not the roadmap I need to follow.
And so that said, the thing about going back to this idea of like focusing on the idea,
one of the things that shows from those big networks will do and you can read, I think
Eric Newsom's book, Make Noise talks about this in a little bit more depth behind the
scenes.
He has worked with tons of these shows from Amazon to Audible is Amazon, all these studios
making like really expensive, highly produced shows that are very story driven, things like
that.
And one of the things he talks about and anybody else in that world will tell you is that a
lot of times they spend multiple years developing these shows before they ever get to launch
day.
And so I think us as creators, we see this amazing show that is incredibly polished.
It gets immediate traction with an audience.
And of course, part of this is due to the marketing resources they have available.
And we think, oh, like they launched on day one with this incredible idea that immediately
took off.
And what we don't see is the two to three years of development behind the scenes of
like testing it with audience and like writing scripts and rewriting and getting all this
feedback and like trying it out on small numbers of people and like teams working together
to like craft this into a show that is actually worth listening to.
And that is something that we certainly could, as indie creators, do that behind the scenes
as well.
But I think a lot of us, what we end up doing is doing that in public, which I actually,
I think that speeds that up a lot of times.
But I think that what's missing is that that work, that development work needs to be done
somewhere.
And it can either be before the show is live or it can happen after the show is live.
But to get to the point where you have a show that is capable of really building sustained
traction is not an overnight process.
And so I think that's the first thing is like the first idea that you come up with, there
might be something there, but it's probably not polished enough to the point where you
get it in front of somebody and they're immediately like they get it instantly and they're compelled
to listen to it.
And I think that that's something that most people give up before they ever get to that
point of like polishing and molding that idea.
And so that's where, you know, for me, when I, when I start working with somebody, it's
kind of like, okay, you've got, there's, there's something here in this idea.
There is a good idea buried here, but now we need to figure out like, how do we mold
this into something that is actually a compelling show that's beyond just a good idea, but how
do we actually like convey this in the best way possible, both from the content itself,
but also how we market it and talk about it and package it and all those things.
So I think that's like really at the starting point where everything needs to, the focus
needs to be.
I think that's great advice.
And now one of the things that you said though was that, you know, we don't see the behind
the scenes.
We don't see the multiple years of all the, all like the groundwork and the, you know,
the research and the, there's probably, I would imagine a lot of marketing research
where they're doing like network groups and focus groups and all that good stuff.
But what do we do when we want to achieve that level of success, but we, like you said,
we don't have those resources.
How can we hit the ground running, but maybe not necessarily do it quite at the level of
a Gary V or a, you know, Amazon.
Yeah, so this is, I think where this idea of like building in public comes in, which
is again, it's kind of like an idea that's bigger in the software maker space rather
than content creators.
Although it has come over to the content space in the past few years as well.
And I know Austin Kleon's book, Show Your Work kind of really popularized this among
kind of general creators and creatives depending on how you kind of identify.
But I think this idea of like building in public and like showing your work regularly
is what helps you understand what do people resonate with.
And I've heard, so there's these two guys, Dickie Bush and Nicholas Cole have a course
called Ship 30 for 30.
And it's a 30 day writing challenge type course.
And then they have a bunch of stuff on the back end.
So I went through that a while ago and they had this phrase in that course that it was
something like make noise and or what was it now?
Make noise, listen for feedback, I think something like that.
And so it's essentially like put stuff out there and see what bounces back to you.
And this is something that you hear a lot in the creator space, but what you don't hear
so much that they've talked about more is that a lot of us, the way we do this is wrong.
And so I certainly made this mistake a decade ago when I started blogging.
I heard like, okay, the way you're supposed to do it is create content and then people
will resonate with certain stuff and you'll know you should double down on that.
I think we've all heard that advice before.
But where we go wrong sometimes is we publish content in a closed kind of forum.
And so a podcast would be like, we don't start out with any audience.
It's not publishing to anywhere that anybody's going to find it.
Maybe we're doing a newsletter or a blog or like these are all channels that nobody is
ever going to find that work.
And so we have no chance of actually getting feedback on it.
And so part of Dickie and Nicholas's premise was that they built their course around publishing
on Twitter for 30 days, because you know, there is an audience of people on Twitter
that if you're publishing your content there, it's in an existing ecosystem.
And that's where you're actually going to get feedback on your ideas.
And so I think a lot of times if you are saying like, want to come out of the gate strong
with a podcast, I would start come up with a content list and whatever your social platform
is, whether that's Instagram or TikTok or Twitter or X, as I suppose it's called now
LinkedIn, like whatever it is, it can be any platform, pick one.
And if you have a community there already, that's going to be much easier.
But like just start like in the months before you start really developing your show content,
like come up with the ideas first that are going to be a part of that show and just start
like writing about those and publishing content about them.
And that could be writing, could be video, whatever it is.
But like get the ideas out there and see, you know, what gets other people's ears perking
up.
And that's going to give you a much better starting point for, oh, I know there's interest
in this.
I've already seen, you know, that people that resonated with this and responded well to
this.
It maybe opened up some conversations that I wouldn't have had otherwise.
That gives me a more nuanced perspective on the content or on the idea.
And then now I'm able to make a much better episode from day one on that topic leading
up to it.
And, you know, a potential side effect as well is that you start to build, even if it's
a fairly small audience that you can then launch to on launch day.
So I think like for me, it, a hundred percent of the ideas, both from the show itself, but
also the episodes are way undervalued, the importance of ideas.
And so I would like start working on the ideas and like the medium that they come out could
be anything.
You know, the same idea that could go behind a great, you know, many true crime podcasts
could also be great investigative journalist articles.
Then a lot of investigative journalists move to podcasting because it's an interesting
medium, but they could also be written.
They could also be visual.
And so I think the ideas behind your show can come out in many ways and bite-sized forms
and you know, longer blog posts, newsletters, whatever.
I think there are ways to test those earlier on than before you putting the time into the
production.
That makes a lot of sense, but I'm curious whenever it comes to, you know, actually starting
the podcast, if we're, you know, obviously we're talking about podcasting.
So if you're actually starting a podcast, do you think it's better to start a podcast
with all your ideation and trying to get, you know, feedback and figuring out what people
think and then possibly fail and move on to pivot to a new podcast?
Or should you keep what it's currently called, get all that feedback and then just kind of
ride with it?
What do you think is better?
Yeah, I think it depends on your savviness and experience around content creation.
So I added this up the other day and what are we in?
2023 right now.
So I think I've been creating content in some form or another for 15 years probably.
And I think I've done something like 10 blogs, at least five newsletters.
I've had four podcasts.
I have done a couple of YouTube like mini series, things like that.
And most of them haven't really gained traction.
Like it's only in the past few years that I've actually like understood.
There's been two things for me.
I've understood the mechanics of creating a good premise of a, we'll call it a show,
but it could be a newsletter as well.
Could be a YouTube channel, but like having a premise around your work that is hooky and
engaging to people.
That was a big thing I was missing for a long time.
Also just like developing the skills to do something well takes a long, long time.
So like I have probably written 500 to a thousand blog posts over the past 15 years.
I have, I haven't created, I've written much more than I've podcasted, but I've done probably
several hundred podcast episodes.
Like getting the reps in, I think there should be an expectation of anyone who wants to create
content.
Let's just call it professionally that you don't become a professional in any field imaginable
without significant time investment.
And so for me, I would say if you're just getting into podcasting and you're excited
about the medium and you want to explore it, I would spend less time worrying about getting
it perfect.
And I would just want to figure out like, what are the mechanics of doing this well?
So I want to pick a topic I'm interested in that I like interviewing people.
I know I'm not going to be that good an interviewer early on it, or maybe I'm doing narrative
or solo or whatever, but I just know I'm not going to be the best at this right now, but
I'm going to get in my first hundred episodes and I'm just going to like do this.
And maybe this show becomes something that's really interesting and I can like mold this
over time.
But I think this is totally something you can do is that the place you start does not
need to be the place you end.
And like I've gone back and listened to the initial episodes of this American life, you
know, one of the cultural touchstones of podcasting, certainly the culture as a whole as well.
And they are almost unlistening.
If you start out with the newer episodes, the it is, it is not really interesting content.
Like it's, you can see that, okay, I can see the DNA of what it became, but it took a number
of episodes and I think I gave up, I like listened to the first like two or three and
I was like, okay, this is not actually by today's standards.
Maybe it was better back then.
Like certainly there's something here, but then I skipped ahead to like episode 40 and
I was like, okay, now it's getting closer to what we know as this American life.
And so of course, like with anything you start, even what I found is like I've started like
creative projects that had a solid premise had, you know, I was a skilled writer or whatever.
And I realized like 50 episodes later, I think of my one newsletter that took me like a hundred
issues of writing it where I was like, oh, I actually understand what this finally is
now.
This was not my podcasting newsletter, but my other one, uh, creative wayfinding.
It took me two years of writing it every single week.
I maybe I never missed a week.
I think I like took a couple off for holidays, but it was like finally kind of like, oh,
this is what this was always meant to be.
And I just couldn't see it until I got some perspective on it and got a bunch of stuff
out there.
And so I think like that's a totally viable path to take.
And to me, I think that expectation management is a huge part of like success in being a
creator or a business owner or anything.
And just like understanding that like you wouldn't expect to pick up the cello today
and six months from now be playing, you know, to an audience of a thousand people.
Like that just seems ridiculous to any of us or pick up a set of golf clubs and you're
going to be playing professionally five years from now even.
And so I think like thinking about content in that perspective where there's so much
competition, there's so many incredibly skilled people out there.
Like we all need to put in the work and learn like what actually makes this good and find
the way to hone our ideas.
So I sometimes feel like a bit of a downer for saying that, but I think I personally
would always rather like know that if I'm going to do this, I'm not going to see results
overnight and I would rather expect going in that like this is going to take me a few
years.
So I better pick something that I'm actually excited to do on a daily basis before I get
to whatever my idea of success is.
I don't think that's a downer at all.
I think it's important that people know the facts because you know, when people get into
this, it has a lot of work.
And so I guess my question for you would be, you know, going back to the American life
example that you brought up.
So it sounds like what they did is they kept all their early episodes up and they kept
the name over time.
But what do you think about like, should someone really focus that much on the name or should
they just kind of just start and if they need to start a new one with a new name, that's
okay too.
Which do you think is the better camp to go into?
Yeah, I think I usually err on the side of don't overthink anything.
I think like the idea.
Yeah, it's I feel like nothing really matters early on.
Like if you say if you're going to make the decision, say like, okay, I'm a creative person
and I need to express myself or I have a business and I need to market it.
And that is always going to be true.
Both of those things are always going to be true.
So I'm going to be doing this for a while.
There's no like exit here where I achieve this incredible success and now I never do
it again.
Like I think anybody who's done had any kind of like creative success knows like you do
something and the reward is getting to do more of it.
And so I think that's where this idea comes back in.
Part of it is like picking something that you just want to do more of.
The reward for it being successful is not that you can now never have to do it again.
It's that you get to do more of it and you get to spend more time on it.
And so I think thinking about that kind of sets you up.
Like, okay, if I'm going to be doing this for a long time, then probably I'm going to
change as a person.
The world is going to change around me.
There are going to be changes that happen here.
And so I'm going to make the best choice that I can make right now.
Knowing what I know for title, for cover art, for episode content, for premise of the show,
all that kind of stuff.
I'm going to like make a decision and just start doing it and see how it fits out and
works out for me.
And sometimes you'll notice early on that like, okay, some of this feels kind of awkward.
I don't really like the way these interviews are going or I don't really like talking about
this content.
I think I could sustain it, but either, you know, this show is not the right show for
me, which I've certainly done.
Or the show is like needs some tweaking and I'm going to keep the same name and everything,
but I'm going to steer it in a different direction.
Or maybe there's somewhere in between where it's like, okay, like I think I'm going to
rebrand the show and it's still kind of related, but it's not as focused as I'd like to be.
We're going in the same audience, but slightly different direction here.
And I think a new name would actually serve better and do a kind of brand refresh.
And I think like for most people where the more successful you are, the more risk there
is in rebranding.
And so for a lot of people, like if you've built it up to the point where it's actually
really risky to change the brand name, it's kind of, you could make the argument a good
problem to have because you've already found traction.
You have an audience and things like that.
Whereas I think for most people, I always think back to the, there's a quote by one
of the Google founders.
Like, I don't know if it was a Sergey or Larry, but it was kind of like early on at Google,
they didn't, they actively did not want people to discover Google because they knew that
Google tomorrow is going to be better than Google today.
And so I'd rather they discovered me tomorrow when it's actually better.
And I think about that every single day where I'm just like, yeah, I know my brand isn't
where I want it to be at.
My content isn't as good as I want it to be at.
So I'm kind of like, okay.
And I can see the vision in my mind, like, man, a year from now it's going to be so much
better.
So like on one hand, I would love to have the listeners and the subscribers now, but
also I know I'm going to make a better first impression, you know, further into the future
and like things are going to be tighter.
And so keeping that in mind, I think is like another, at least for me, it's helpful in
thinking about, you know, playing the long game and not putting too much stock in where
things are at right now, because hopefully it's going to be better in the future.
So it sounds like we almost need to stop focusing so much on what's going to happen in several
years, but just get out there, fail fast and get the feedback.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think like one of the things, you know, this brings up the topic of engagement, which
every podcaster struggles with.
I personally am a huge fan of initiating engagement rather than waiting for it to come to you.
So whether or not they're existing listeners of your show, putting yourself and being an
active member of a community around that your topic of your show is revolves around, like
not creating your own community, going out and being a part of someone else's.
I think that's the way to just embed yourself in the conversation that's happening.
And like people will naturally find their way to your show through that, but you'll
also be able to, you know, be plugged into what's happening in that space and it's going
to shape your own content.
You're going to be able to like have more ideas more readily that come up with the show.
And I think that, you know, then you're able, you're kind of like, you're not waiting for
listeners to, to come to you and respond with you because like, if you're already a member
of that community and then those people discover your show, you already have a relationship
with them.
And so they're probably going to much more naturally talk about your show because they
already know you now they know your content.
And I think that that's where things start to like click a lot more and it becomes a
lot, a lot less like you're, you know, broadcasting, you know, into the void and you're kind of
just like plugging into an existing conversation that's already happening.
Can you give me an example of what you mean by plugging into a community you're already
part of?
So for me, this has really happened through Twitter.
It has also happened in other places as well.
And I suppose I'm just going to defiantly go ahead and keep calling it Twitter at this
point.
Um, so a few years ago, I, I had always, and I know that a lot of the data shows that podcasters
are most active on Instagram, but I just like hated Instagram myself.
And so I like tried hard to make Instagram work for me to build a community of podcasters
there.
Instagram as a platform is also less communal than Twitter.
And so I moved to Twitter just for my own.
There were people I liked on there, even if they weren't in the podcasting space, but
it seemed like around the same time, 2020, 2021, there's a lot of like the podcasting
community on Twitter was growing.
And so I just, I talked about podcasting on Twitter, but I also interacted with a ton
of other people who were in the podcasting space on Twitter.
And there's this kind of natural community that forms around that.
When the people you follow, you're just like, and you know, I do this on LinkedIn now too,
is like, there's a bunch of people I find genuinely interesting.
They're friends.
I like their content.
They're smart people.
They have interesting things to say.
And so I spend a lot of time.
I typically spend more time engaging with their content than I do coming up with creating
my own.
And so like I became friends with tons of people in the podcast space, which is what
I create content around.
And so what happens is like, I've got exposure to their audiences who are also interested
in podcasting, who then may subscribe to my newsletter, but also all the other people
who are also publishing content will do cross promotions together, or we'll do panels together,
or we'll shout out each other's newsletters and things like this.
And so that's kind of like, it's not a gated, like Facebook group type community.
It's just like an open conversation happening out there in the world because other people
are also creating content that you can chime in on and they'll chime in on yours.
And there's all this kind of like web of just discussion around, you know, whatever your
topic is.
And I think if you can find that or I would, I was going to say, or create it, I would
recommend early on finding that because it's really hard to kickstart that yourself and
just like plug into that.
Even if you're like offering a different kind of unique take on this, which, you know, hopefully
you should be, that's going to be that way that you can like find something that's already
going on and just like plugging yourself into it.
And it's kind of like, you already know there's a tension concentrated around those, that
conversation.
And so now you've like put yourself in the way of people's eyeballs and ear holes so
that they're much more likely to find you and your show as a result.
That makes complete sense.
And I mean, you know, there's so many groups out there in every different niche and so
many forums you could go on.
I mean, you know, something completely random like taxidermy, there's a whole Reddit thread
on taxidermy and, and you could create an entire podcast all about that.
And I'm sure someone already has.
And so I like the idea of going and finding what already exists and seeing how you can
not dominate the conversation, but participate in it and figure out, you know, what your
audience even wants to hear, because I'm sure that's a great place to get all that research
for what you're going to even talk about.
And I think, yeah, for me, the, I highly promote audience research and I also highly resist
it as a creator because it sounds boring and you know, I don't really want to do it and
I don't make time for it all the time.
I'll do sprints of it sometimes when there's something I know, like I don't really know
this and I need to find out so that I can, you know, do this test over here or whatever.
But I think when you focus on, for me, like what, what unlocked it for me was like, okay,
my goal here is not networking.
It's not audience research.
It's making friends.
And like, I'm going to go where there are people who are interesting to me, who I like
and I admire and I respect, and I'm going to hang out with them.
And you end up both doing audience research and networking while actually kind of it's
like packaged in this like Russian nesting doll of like making friends.
And it's like, oh, I can make friends.
I like talking with people about podcasting.
I like talking with people about marketing, about course creation and product creation
and all these things.
And by just being a person who contributes to those conversations and is regularly active
there, whether that's creating my own content, you know, be that, you know, posts on LinkedIn
or Twitter or newsletters or podcasts or whatever it is, like that just like increases people's
exposure to me.
But also it increases my exposure to like what's going on in the space and the general
vibe so that I can kind of create content that is more relevant to what people are asking
about and looking for and how people are feeling and all that kind of stuff.
So everything you're describing though, sounds like it's going to take so much time.
So what do you say to the would be podcaster who comes to you and is like, man, I don't
know how I'm going to have time for all this.
What would you say to them?
I mean, I think that's like a real thing that people need to understand is like there is
no shortcut.
Like you need to be able to invest a certain amount of time to have success in most fields.
Like there are certainly some niches where there's just nothing else.
And so like if you can create just like a half baked show, like you're going to get
your listeners there.
Those are very, very, very rare niches that, you know, there aren't very many of those.
So I wouldn't like put my hopes on any of that.
But I think that that's one of the big reasons that people quit is because they get into
podcasting and they realize this is takes way more.
I thought I was going to be like, I show up for an interview, like do you know, maybe
I do an hour on the interview.
I do an hour of editing and then half an hour of like publishing and whatever else.
And it usually does not work out that way.
And so I think why one of the reasons like a lot of people who have success podcasting,
they're creating shows around topics that they're already active members of the community.
So they don't have to like, it doesn't become work at that point.
And so like for me with Twitter, like that was not time spent researching.
That was time spent procrastinating on other stuff because I like enjoyed being on there.
And it's like, I would rather like shirk off work and just go like chat about my favorite
topic here for 30 minutes.
And you know, 30 minutes a day isn't a huge amount.
It's not nothing, but when it feels actually fun to catch up with people that you like
and you know, enjoy talking about topics that you like, it's not like an onerous thing.
And so I think part of that is like finding a topic that you actually feel that for that
you want to spend more time thinking about and talking about it, which I think most podcasters,
they are creating shows about those topics.
But then there's also just like this recognition that usually the people I see who are trying
to cut every corner imaginable from a time perspective are not the successful ones.
And so I think, I mean like I spend, I don't know, many hours a week creating content.
My one newsletter, and now I've kind of like shaved it down a little bit because it was
getting, I do two newsletters, which is a little bit overwhelming.
The one for many, the first year and a half, I probably spent like 12 hours a week creating
that.
And then the other shows that I created, it took like 20 hours per episode, which ultimately
ended up being unsustainable for, because I was also doing the 10 to 15 hour a week
newsletter at the same time, plus running a business.
But I think like sometimes I know I as a creator, which is, you know, a lot of people get into
this mistake who identifies creators as well, want to do, start too many things.
And so one of the things that I've over the past kind of three years really been whittling
away at like, okay, what's the one thing I really want to commit to and do that really
well and invest the time there rather than trying to do all these different things and
actually running out of time.
And so like I've, at least for the summer said, okay, I'm not doing social media anymore
at all.
I'm just like, I spent so much time on there, but, and it's been, I've got a lot of benefits
out of it, but it's reached the point where it's inhibiting the newsletter and other things
like that.
And so I'm going to like for the next few months, like really focus on the newsletter
and make like optimizing that and you know, getting that to where I am, you know, feel
like it needs to be right now.
And then maybe once that becomes kind of muscle memory, building some like out some new things
around that, then I can expand into something else.
But I think a lot of times like I would focus on, you know, if you are starting out with
a podcast, like focus on creating a great show and talking with people and like, don't
worry too much about repurposing content and all this other stuff that can easily add up
hours and hours and hours, because probably that's not going to have a huge effect right
now until you get to the point where when you talk to somebody who is your ideal listener
and you like give them your one sentence description of your show and they're like eyes light up
immediately and they like pull out their phones to subscribe on the spot so that they don't
forget about it.
Like if you can, when you get to that point, that's the time when it's like, okay, now
I just need to really ramp up my exposure because if I'm getting that reaction consistently,
that means that I'm not having to work really hard at all the other marketing stuff.
It's like I can get this in front of people, they get what the show is about and now I'm
going to spend more time on all the discoverability and exposure side of things.
Wow, so it sounds like, I mean, because when we sat down, we were talking about a roadmap
to success, but it sounds like there's so many decisions that have to be made before
you can even figure out what your destination even is.
Would you say that's appropriate?
Yeah, I mean, just like, so my one newsletter that's not podcasting related is called Creative
Wayfinding and really what, this is the one that took me like two years to figure out
what it's about and I still struggle to talk about it, which makes it hard to market, which
is one of the ongoing things now three years in almost 200 issues in, still working at
it.
But really it's more about like the internal side of like making and marketing creative
work and there are so many tactical things that we all latch onto and I kind of think
of this as like there's this flip side, this like above ground and below ground and the
above ground is all the stuff we can see, the tactics, the strategies and the below
ground is all the internal stuff that totally does kind of influence everything that we
do and we're kind of on this like this journey where we need to make the journey on both
sides of that equation, that line, the above ground and the below ground.
And I think a lot of times we try to compensate for a lack of clarity about what we want or
like what the content that we are uniquely capable of creating and should be creating
and we see, oh, this is popular right now, so I should create something like that or
oh, podcast collaborations, that's the way to grow. So we latch onto all these things
and we're not actually in tune with like, why am I doing the show and like what about
me is going to come out in the show that will make this the show that only I could possibly
create and so I think a lot of times like coming back to doing a lot of the work to
figure out first, like you mentioned the destination, I think that's a really a question that we
should have some idea when we're starting out, like why am I doing the show in the first
place and why am I the right person to be doing the show? Why is a podcast the right
medium for this idea? I think a lot of people don't have clarity on those answers, which
makes for like when you don't, those are all like the internal side of things and when
you don't have those answers, nothing you do on the other side of the equation will
actually work. Like because you don't have clarity at the core of like, what makes this
worth listening to? Why should somebody pay attention to me and this show and why is this
the right decision for me? And so I think a lot about like sorting that stuff out. It's
usually not possible to get a absolute clear answer on that probably ever. If anybody is
ever who's listening to this, like just had absolute clarity on everything on the internal
side of things in their life, I would love to hear from you and what your secret is,
but I feel like for me, it's always like a best guess in like a general direction. Like
I know I want to go in this direction and I can see how this podcast might be a good
vehicle to help me get there, but then you do it for a year and you realize, ah, well,
that actually wasn't quite where I wanted to go. So I need to course correct a little
bit and take it in a different direction. So a lot of times I just think about it as
such a, like a fluid process and I think we don't tend to like that. I don't think like
people don't like uncertainty. They don't like discomfort, which is what this is. And
so I think that's a huge part of the challenge is being able to tolerate uncertainty and
discomfort and still put something out there that is good and that you believe in, but
that you know is like always going to be evolving and changing and that you're never going to
have the absolute answer on it, even though sometimes we do think we stumble onto it.
And then probably six months later, we realized, oh, that wasn't quite it.
So it sounds like everything that you've said, and again, back to the map analogy, sounds
like you're having one of those journey matters more than the destination moment.
Oh, yeah. Don't even get me started on the journey and expedition metaphors. So that's
my whole one newsletter basically. But I think like when I think about like, what does creative
success look like to me? And so I identify both as a creator and an entrepreneur and
a marketer and all these things. And I think about like, okay, so let's say that I was
able to build up my company and sell it for whatever huge number, huge amount of money
that means I never have to work again. What am I going to do the very next day? What does
that mean? I am as a creative person, I am going to find a creative project to work on
immediately. And I'm not going to be able to like, I will feel uncomfortable not doing
that. And so for me, part of that is like, well, how do I take that energy, whatever
that is that if I didn't have to work, what would I be doing? And maybe I don't have the
time or the budget or whatever it is to do that exact version of it right now. But how
can I work some of that into what I'm doing right now? And in my experience, like that
actually creates the shows, even if they're like a business marketing tool that are actually
worth listening to because there's something unique about like you and your energy that
you're bringing to this that people can't find anywhere else. And so I think, no, I
don't think we any of us actually wants the destination. I think we think we do. But like
what the only not to get like morbid here, but the only final destination is death here.
Like whether we have some we are going to fill that time with something. And I think
if you're a creative person, you're going to be doing creative work. So how can you
just start doing that now so that you don't even want to get to the destination? It's
like that, like I said before, the benefit is getting to keep doing more of that thing.
And so I think too many of us like sometimes come up with this idea of like, well, if I
do this really well, then I'm going to reach the end point and then I won't have to do
it again, which is kind of like, well, why are we doing it in the first place? If part
of this is like a hobby or something we enjoy, like we should want if you don't want to keep
doing this, probably you're working on the wrong show is usually how I think about it.
That's a really interesting way to think about it actually, because I mean, you know, one
of the biggest things that I've been reading about lately is celebrities that finally achieve
all their dreams and goals and then they become depressed. They worked so hard to get there.
And then once they were there, it was like, now what? So I like the idea of, well, making
your destination almost a moving target.
Yeah. And yeah, I think there's like one of the things that I, one of the things that
I like about content creation, which is like both attached to my business and also I have
like one newsletter that's much more attached to my business, which is scrappy podcasting.
And then I have another newsletter, which has no products or services or monetization
attached to it at all. And one of the things that I've realized is like, I enjoy doing
scrappy podcasting way more when I bring over the stuff from creative wayfinding and some
of the ideas that feel kind of like we're talking about here that they're less about
like podcast marketing, but they're more about this, like, we're all trying to create stuff
and build audiences while also trying to like be fulfilled as creative people and, you know,
feed our families and all that kind of stuff.
And I think that that can all live together. And I think that's the really hard part of
marketing and content creation is like finding out because you like almost by definition,
you can't take somebody else's template for that because you're a different person. You
have a slightly different audience, you have different goals. And so figuring out how to
blend all of that together in a unique and compelling way, that's both fulfilling for
you, but also beneficial to other people. Like that's some of the art and like magic,
I think of marketing and creative work. But I think like, if you can land on that, that's
I think the sweet spot that we're all looking for. And I know that I've done this countless
times is that we look at what is already successful and we think I need to be more like that rather
than saying like, what do I want to see? And like, what would be fulfilling for me to create
that is also, you know, belongs in this world that like other people in this space might
also be interested in. And like, that's actually the thing that's probably more likely to be
successful. And like, I'll give you an example. I have had so many people who've joined my
course who got inspired to start podcasts by Amy Porterfield. Now hers was one of the
first shows that I ever listened to. And I owe a lot of my like, online business career
to her and to Pat Flynn and all these people. Tim Ferriss is another common one where people
like get inspired by his show and basically create copycat shows. And what nobody realizes
is why would I listen to your Amy Porterfield clone show when I could just listen to the
real thing over here? Like if you're not doing anything differently or Tim Ferriss, a Tim
Ferriss clone show, he has access to way more interesting people. He's a much better interviewer.
He has a much broader field of knowledge and like, nobody can possibly compete with that.
And so what would be more interesting is to say like, okay, well, she has, you know, some
format here. Tim has some format here that's maybe a little bit interesting, but I don't
have any of these advantages that they have. I don't have their personality. And the reason,
a big part of the reason that it works for them is because of something that's entirely
non-replicable. And so I need to find out what is that that I can bring to my show that
is going to differentiate that. And so I think that's, you know, that's the thing that I
like working with people with. It's not something you can like write a blog post on and say
like, here's the five steps to like, figure out that unique thing within yourself that
is like entirely magic and like, can't, you can't even put words to, I think like that's
a much more like interpersonal thing sometimes that we can get sometimes reflections from
people around us. I often recommend like, just, you know, send an email to people, five
people that who really know you well and say like, you know, what do you think my unique
like strengths or abilities are that, what would you say that like is my kind of like
magic? And I would sometimes even put like words like that, even they might feel a little
like soft, but I think that sometimes when you put more tangible words to it, people
will give you, oh, you're really good at, you know, whatever hard skill. Whereas like,
when you almost frame it as a way of like, what's the intangible things about me that
like, you know, you find interesting or compelling or that I'm good at that other people aren't,
you'll get some really interesting things back from people. And that's, I think when
you can start to hear, when you start to hear the same things, then you say like, oh, this
needs to be the center of my show. Like this needs to be, the show needs to be built around
that skill or talent because it's the thing that's unique to me. And if it's compelling
to these people, probably it is to other people as well.
Wow. I mean, you've shared so many golden nuggets and I bet we've barely scratched the
surface of what you could riff on. So with that in mind, where can people find you online
to learn more all about your podcasting philosophies?
Yeah. So the best place is at podcastmarketingacademy.com. And so there you can find the Scrappy Podcasting
newsletter that we mentioned. I also have a free kind of self-serve audit of your marketing.
So you answer 20 questions and it'll give out a personalized kind of rating on each
of the categories of your marketing and then give you some tips on what you can do to improve
in each of those areas. So podcastmarketingacademy.com is the best place.
Yeah. And people definitely need to subscribe to your newsletter. Because like I said, that's
where I first stumbled upon you and you share a lot of golden nuggets, more than we could
possibly fit into a quick podcast episode. So, but before I let you go, I got to ask
you the one question I ask everyone before I let them go. And that is what is one question
I didn't ask you really wish I had.
Hmm. And I feel like I really enjoyed this conversation. We got into a lot of like, usually,
so the typical question is I love, as you, as everybody here can now probably notice,
I love riffing on all the non-obvious, non-tactical internal stuff. And so that's usually my answer
to that type of question is all that stuff tends to get ignored. And I think it's basically
the whole of the challenge of doing creative work and marketing. I just came across a quote
this week that was, there's no such, or I think it's like, there are no business problems.
There are only mindset problems. I was like, oh, that feels pretty accurate hit home as
I'm like thinking about, I'm struggling with some kind of business problem. And I'm like,
oh yeah, it's probably all me mindset and emotional. So that would be my, you did, we
did get into that, but that's what I would say is worth thinking more about than a lot
of the tactical things.
That's really good stuff. I mean, one of my favorite mentors, Denise Duffield Thomas,
she always says, it doesn't matter what level of success you get to, it's new level, new
devil. And so no matter where you are in your business, you're going to have something that
comes up that you're going to have to think about. And so I like that we kind of went
all over the map. Back to the map analogy. I just want to thank you for being here because
everything you said, I think it's awesome. And I hope that people that are listening
to this, that they got something out of this that they can kind of take and use towards
their own podcasting journey. Because in my opinion, podcasting is one of the best mediums
out there right now. And it's so, it's such an intimate medium. Like you learn so much
from people and they're in your ears and I love the medium. So I really appreciate you
being here and thank you. Just thank you.
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me Ashley.
We'll have to do it again sometime.
Yes, definitely.
Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this
episode. To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to rss.com
backslash blog. And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started
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