1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:19,760 Hey everyone, Ashley here with RSS.com. 2 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,120 In today's episode, we're chatting with Bryan Barletta of Sounds Profitable. 3 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,960 We'll be discussing how to monetize your podcast and the best way to get started with it. 4 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:39,400 Enjoy the show. 5 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,000 So let's just get into it. 6 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,160 First of all, let's just jump right in and tell me a little bit about what it is that 7 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:47,940 you do, even though I know that's a very, very loaded question. 8 00:00:47,940 --> 00:00:49,680 What is it that you do? 9 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,160 So first off, my favorite part about that is we have podcast movement coming up in August, 10 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,100 about a month away from now. 11 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:59,600 And I love when I get to interact with people who know what we do. 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,480 And then they introduce us to other people because they're just like, they take a shot 13 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:04,480 at it. 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,200 And I just sit back and I was like, what's their favorite part about what we do? 15 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,200 So I'm Brian Barletta. 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,080 I've been working in ad tech about 14 years. 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,960 I am a failed college, like a history teacher. 18 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:15,840 I did not succeed in that path. 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,640 I fell into advertising, mobile advertising originally, and got to be involved in the 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,280 initial specs of advertising and mobile apps. 21 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,680 It was a lot of fun. 22 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,360 Halfway through my career, I ended up working in podcasting. 23 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:33,160 We were an attribution company as a subset of an ad company called Ad Theory. 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:34,800 And we split off the team, Barometric. 25 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,920 I was one of the founding members there. 26 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,480 And we eventually sold to Claretos. 27 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,360 We were the first attribution company in podcasting. 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,400 And it was an absolute blast. 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,320 I stayed through the acquisition for a little bit. 30 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:49,240 And then I went over to Megaphone where I was the senior product manager of data and 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,240 monetization. 32 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,120 I was hired to help rewrite the ad server and improve flow. 33 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,880 They got an awesome opportunity to sell to Spotify. 34 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,660 I don't know if you know this, but it's incredibly difficult to sell a house when someone's ripping 35 00:01:59,660 --> 00:02:00,660 up the carpet. 36 00:02:00,660 --> 00:02:04,560 So we parted ways in August 2020 because they couldn't easily tell me that they were trying 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,880 to sell and I'm not great at taking hints. 38 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:12,340 What happened then was I had the opportunity, thanks to James Cridlin, to start writing 39 00:02:12,340 --> 00:02:14,560 a little bit about podcasting. 40 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,400 I realized that the space had grown so massively. 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,200 And I think it was four or five years at that point that I've been working in it. 42 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,800 And there were people who didn't understand a download, a listen or stream and why the 43 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,300 three of those were different. 44 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:26,400 So James platformed us. 45 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,520 We ended our relationship with them earlier this year. 46 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,160 So two great years working together and we started writing. 47 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,880 Well, I should say I started writing. 48 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,760 It was a weekly newsletter all about podcasts, more focused on ad tech, but grew into the 49 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,160 business of podcasting, which is what it is today. 50 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,080 And so now today, which when is this episode going to air? 51 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,080 Maybe I can. 52 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,120 I believe it's going to air in September. 53 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:49,120 Okay. 54 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,440 Well, now today we have a Wednesday newsletter and a Friday newsletter. 55 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,600 The Wednesday is more of a thought piece, things to grow the whole space, educate you 56 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,760 on what's going on, give you material to work with and think through how we all collaboratively 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,480 lift the industry. 58 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,360 Friday is a recap, what we call the download. 59 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:13,680 And that is three articles basically that we've expanded on and some quick hits for 60 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,180 what you need to know to stay informed in the business of podcasting. 61 00:03:17,180 --> 00:03:21,680 But considering this episode is coming out in September on August 2nd, we're watching 62 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,240 our daily newsletter. 63 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,560 We're recording this in July, by the way, for everybody out there keeping chronological 64 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:28,560 order. 65 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,320 Our newsletter is going to come out Monday through Thursday. 66 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,320 It's going to come out around three or four PM Eastern. 67 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:39,380 And the intent is for it to be an ad free newsletter, coalescing everything about the 68 00:03:39,380 --> 00:03:41,440 business of podcasting that happened that day. 69 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:48,320 So really focus on advertising, content and marketing, all these key things. 70 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,640 And not only just what's happening in podcasting, but like what's happening in YouTube, right? 71 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,640 Currently right now, there's a huge issue about viewability in YouTube. 72 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:57,180 It's a closed market. 73 00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:02,060 Everybody's telling people in podcasting today, you need to get into YouTube because that's 74 00:04:02,060 --> 00:04:04,600 where additional monetization is additional discovery. 75 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,280 But YouTube's got its own problems. 76 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:07,480 The grass is always greener. 77 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:12,680 So we're trying to arm people with very quick explanations of what the article is and how 78 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,320 it relates to podcasting so people can share it, copy and paste it, or they can read it 79 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,480 and they can use it with clients. 80 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,440 It's very, it's a very thin newsletter, right? 81 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,200 It's like five to 10 points, a data point, and then there you go. 82 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,380 And that's our goal is to respect everybody's time and empower them. 83 00:04:28,380 --> 00:04:30,540 But sounds probably has been so much more than written content. 84 00:04:30,540 --> 00:04:32,340 We do podcast versions of all that. 85 00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:33,840 We do live events every quarter. 86 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:38,120 Tom Webster left 18 years at Edison Research to come be my business partner. 87 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:39,960 And now we do quarterly live research. 88 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,600 All of that is freely available. 89 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,040 And we work really, really hard to just drive the industry forward. 90 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:51,560 So we have, as of right now, over 140 partners and we kind of fashion ourselves as a trade 91 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:52,560 association. 92 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:59,120 We provide them with consulting every month and access to our Slack channels and a little 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:00,760 bit more granular stuff. 94 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,080 People who are enterprising and are looking to just learn from everything we have out 95 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,680 there or ask us questions, we're here for it. 96 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,160 And we encourage everybody to do that. 97 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,880 But we price our structure and how we have 140 partners is sometimes people just need 98 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,960 to ask a really direct, unique question to them. 99 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,200 Sometimes they need help with a project. 100 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,440 And we are very, very thankful for everybody's support and growing our ability to help improve 101 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:23,440 this industry. 102 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,180 Well, and one of the things that struck me recently is, you mentioned that you like to 103 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:29,400 empower podcasters. 104 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:35,040 And that is so accurate because you guys just released an awesome glossary of terms. 105 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,000 And when you did that, it was just like, oh my goodness, these are things that I spout 106 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,240 off some of these terms all the time. 107 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,560 But a new person coming in, hearing all this jargon, it can get overwhelming. 108 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,560 And so that's just one of those things that I like the website because of all the things 109 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,080 that you guys share that actually helps a podcaster become more knowledgeable. 110 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,160 And so one of the things that comes up a lot of times whenever we start talking about monetization 111 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,120 is, you know, they're asking for, what are your click-through rates? 112 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,560 They're asking for, what are your downloads? 113 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,280 They're asking for all these numbers, you know, when sponsors are coming to you or you're 114 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:07,680 going to them. 115 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,320 How in the world does a podcaster, the little guy that just got his microphone, how does 116 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,520 he or she begin the crazy world of monetizing a podcast? 117 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,520 What would you say to them? 118 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,240 Well, let's first divide it, right? 119 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:27,120 If this is intended to be a career and to earn revenue and you to quit your job, you 120 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,520 to treat it like starting a business. 121 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,880 If somebody told me that they had zero investment and investment can be money or time and they 122 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,120 were going to start like a clothing business, I don't know how I would respond to them. 123 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,640 So when someone tells me that they've recorded 10 podcast episodes and they want to know 124 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Brian, how do I quit my job? 125 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,060 I don't have feedback, right? 126 00:06:46,060 --> 00:06:51,200 Because that's a big, that's a grand canyon of a jump you have to make there. 127 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,920 Referencing back to our road tripping and hiking stuff. 128 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,320 I think that people really need to separate it. 129 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,360 If you're doing podcasting because you love it, just do it, right? 130 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:01,400 It's a killer art form. 131 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:02,640 It's a great way to connect with people. 132 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,640 It's a great way to have fun. 133 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,180 If 20, there was a quote on Reddit at one point, like what would 20 or 30 people in 134 00:07:08,180 --> 00:07:10,000 your living room look like? 135 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,300 That's a, that's a big crowd. 136 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:12,840 So be happy with it. 137 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:20,200 Our podcast only gets 300 downloads an episode and I'm not even remotely stressed about that. 138 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,560 Monetization there's so many different avenues. 139 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:27,240 If it's going to be valuable to you, you need to really just kind of figure out your priority. 140 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,800 Todd Cochran from blueberry said something that really, I really latched onto a long 141 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:38,320 time ago, which was, is it going to earn you burger money, car payment money or mortgage 142 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:39,320 money, right? 143 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:43,200 Like the three levels, if you think about it and you need to just determine how much 144 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,920 effort burger money is worth because advertising can be jumping through a lot of hoops. 145 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,720 So that's all to say that like, let's, we'll talk through a bunch of models here. 146 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,920 If you want me to dig into it, like all the different ways people can monetize. 147 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,720 But the thing I want to say is like, when you're small, the best thing you can do is 148 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,460 direct bundled relationships, right? 149 00:08:04,460 --> 00:08:09,300 It is, there are shows out there that have a thousand listeners per episode that talks 150 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:15,500 specifically to incredibly important IT individuals at major companies. 151 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:19,240 And that podcast might earn half a million dollars a year because all the advertising 152 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,800 needs to do is close one sale to make a million dollars. 153 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:28,080 So half a million dollars to land a million dollar client for some in advertising, like 154 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,460 the margins there for that. 155 00:08:31,460 --> 00:08:35,820 So when you come up with that, when what your content is, if you can figure out advertisers 156 00:08:35,820 --> 00:08:39,500 that make sense there, but approach them, offer them something, make sure that that 157 00:08:39,500 --> 00:08:43,680 dollar amount works for you, try and back it into a CPM to understand their value of 158 00:08:43,680 --> 00:08:44,680 it. 159 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:47,800 If you believe you have an audience that can convert or that can provide them value that 160 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,800 is uniquely positioned, take your shot. 161 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,640 That's my first suggestion there. 162 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:58,240 The second is I think it's very smart to have ways for people to pay you directly. 163 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:03,040 I don't know why, but I got bit with the bug of learning more about what was happening 164 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,680 to Britney Spears during her trial. 165 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:13,840 And I found the toxic podcast and I binge listened to every episode and I would have killed for 166 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:19,000 like a buy me a coffee or something in their episode descriptions because I found easily 167 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,360 10 or $20 worth of value of that. 168 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,360 And I wasn't given the opportunity to do that. 169 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,560 I couldn't even subscribe to their podcast and Apple or directly. 170 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:30,320 There was nothing available or nothing in my face for me to say here is money. 171 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,120 And while I'm not a fan of like the Patreon model necessarily the monthly reoccurring 172 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,460 to do like a one time, right? 173 00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:40,960 Just pick the $20 option, do one time and then cancel future months. 174 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,400 I think giving people the options to pay you is really smart. 175 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:48,240 I think that can be a real quick way to get support and to find your audience and then 176 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:49,720 not compromise on your values. 177 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,640 I mean, if you think about sounds profitable, well, the 140 partners that we work with help 178 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,520 finance our ability to speak our mind. 179 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,200 They have no editorial impact on our content. 180 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:00,600 So that's very similar there. 181 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,240 That Patreon that subscription is someone saying, keep doing this, please. 182 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,560 It entertains me and has value. 183 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:08,760 They may want to add free. 184 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,200 I don't necessarily think you need to go that way if you're big enough to have ads, but 185 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,400 they want to support you and they kind of just want to be included, right? 186 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Read their name at the end of the episode. 187 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:18,760 Final one is ads. 188 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,320 You know, there's so many different ways to go about it. 189 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,640 It is harder when you're smaller, right? 190 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:30,560 If you have 250 downloads an episode and you have four ad impressions or ad insertion points 191 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:36,080 available, so four ads, and let's say you are just a rock star, you sold out at $25 192 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:42,440 CPM all four ad reads, that is a hundred dollars for that episode, right? 193 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,560 That's four different clients that you're having conversations with. 194 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:48,280 That's four different ad reads that you're getting approved, that you're providing them 195 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:49,800 reporting to at the end of it. 196 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,880 And each of them are only paying you $25. 197 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,020 Like for me, I don't think I could handle, I don't think it could justify a hundred dollars 198 00:10:56,020 --> 00:10:57,920 to work with four people through email. 199 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,660 I think that that very quickly eats into your time. 200 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:05,700 So as you get bigger, there are more advertising opportunities, but I really push people to 201 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,000 explore the other ones, right? 202 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,840 The way to ask for money from the audience, the way to do sponsorship instead of advertising. 203 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,800 And I really want to differentiate. 204 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,200 Sponsorship is in the benefit of the publisher creating a bundle that someone, an advertiser 205 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,800 buys into. 206 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,800 Advertising is a CPA or CPM like a, or CPC, CPA, whatever. 207 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,480 Cost per thousand is cost per million is CPM. 208 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,720 Cost per acquisition is CPA. 209 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,680 Cost per click is CPC. 210 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:32,760 I always skip over them. 211 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,240 So I want to make sure I explain them there. 212 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,600 Advertisers like to work in that model because then they can buy across thousands or tens 213 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:40,920 of thousands of shows. 214 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,040 And that's how they buy everywhere. 215 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,800 So it is in a publisher's best interest to explore sponsorship. 216 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:47,800 Absolutely. 217 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,160 And one of the things that you said that really struck me is you said that with all of your 218 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,900 partners, none of them have an impact on your editorial. 219 00:11:54,900 --> 00:12:00,480 And I think that's an important point to stress is I see far too many content creators. 220 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:06,760 They will let the sponsorship money influence what it is that they are creating about. 221 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,720 And this actually just came up recently because, you know, I was telling my husband we're working 222 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:16,360 on starting a food blog and I was saying that I can't stand lemon flavored anything. 223 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,600 And you know, one of the jokes was, well, what if a lemon company wanted to come and 224 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:20,600 sponsor me? 225 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:21,800 What would I do? 226 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,360 And I can't say that I would just be like, oh, well, let me just start writing about 227 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,300 lemon flavored everything because that's not authentic. 228 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:33,640 And so will you speak to me a little bit about what it's like to have a sponsor come on and 229 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:38,600 work with you, but not let it impact what it is you're saying? 230 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,800 So that's, I mean, like the lemon example is really fun. 231 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,160 If you look at some of the great bigger names and they can only do this because they've 232 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,080 established themselves or whatnot. 233 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,680 Like there are podcasters out there who could say like, I hate lemons, but this lemon company 234 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:54,360 has paid us to talk about lemons. 235 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,880 I know lemons won't kill you, but that doesn't mean I'm going to eat them. 236 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,960 But maybe you should because that, you know what I mean? 237 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:01,160 That people can have fun with it. 238 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,920 There are so many interesting ways to go about it. 239 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,880 It's very different than like an oil company wanting to sponsor a podcast about the environment, 240 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,840 you know, the lines are there. 241 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:11,900 It's not easy. 242 00:13:11,900 --> 00:13:13,160 Like it's, it's really not easy. 243 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,160 I think the truth is, is the podcast advertisers don't expect you to change your content, especially 244 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,520 if you're smaller, they're buying into you because of what you have and they're trying 245 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:22,880 to see if it works, right? 246 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,520 They've either proven out that category or your archetyped, like, you know, female hosted 247 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:29,800 sports podcasts, right? 248 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:35,560 They know that those convert well for them or audiences that do really well with the 249 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:40,760 drive a lot of adult women listeners because they have more disposable income or all these 250 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,360 different things, right? 251 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,840 I don't think a lot of them are going to challenge you on your content, but I think it's incredibly 252 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,120 important for publishers to also be listeners or podcasters to also be listeners of their 253 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,120 show. 254 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:53,920 I, I don't know. 255 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,720 I mean, there's a handful of shows that I, I really want to listen to that just have 256 00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:59,720 too many ads. 257 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:04,420 Like the team at iHeart does some really great stuff, but I think, you know, they're a little 258 00:14:04,420 --> 00:14:08,600 bit on the, like we joke about how many ads are in an iHeart podcast, right? 259 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,440 It's usually four insertion points of three to four ads each. 260 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,200 Some of those ads are over a minute each, right? 261 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,560 I think this year I called it being whams when you're washing the dishes and you end 262 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,720 up in an, like an iHeart ad break, because what do you do? 263 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,560 You can skip it. 264 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,080 You got to be a listener to your show too. 265 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:29,800 You got to, you got to determine what's like, what's going to stop your momentum. 266 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,440 Momentum is the most important thing. 267 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:37,020 I mean, we have, there are a handful of people who are partners now, who, when we started 268 00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:43,260 three years ago, likely passed on partnership because I didn't offer them anything editorial. 269 00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:46,880 But now because we've become so neutral and valuable, they understand that by working 270 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:52,200 with us and talking to me and my subject matter is related to them, the more we spend time 271 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,800 together, the more I can reference them and bring them up and promote them organically 272 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,480 because I find the value in it, not because I was paid to do it. 273 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,760 So I think momentum is the key there. 274 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:09,200 I think that if you do not feel like you have enough momentum to, to skip that advertiser 275 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,120 and keep growing to get the advertisers you want, if you can't take that little bit of 276 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,840 a drought, it's probably not a good business model. 277 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,760 Well speaking of, you know, you were talking about how like you can't skip the ad. 278 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,040 What do you think about the podcasters who are opting for, they'll have the, you know, 279 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,320 the traditional RSS feed where it has all the ads on it, all the sponsorship things. 280 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,480 But then if you want a ad free version, you pay a little bit extra and you get it directly. 281 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,120 What do you think about those? 282 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,880 So I love bonus content. 283 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,040 I listened to a lot of actual play Dungeons and Dragons and tabletop role playing game 284 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,040 podcasts. 285 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,840 And then I also listened to a bunch of kids podcasts. 286 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,200 So whenever someone's like, have you listened to the really cool pop culture one? 287 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:52,480 I was like, no idea, man. 288 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,640 Like I listened to, I listened to junk and I love it. 289 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,680 One of the ones I listened to did something really cool. 290 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,480 They have their bonus feed, which is paid for only has their bonus content. 291 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:08,040 It doesn't contain their ad free version of their main show. 292 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,880 And then you have to still subscribe to their main feed in the podcast directories. 293 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,800 The reason why I think this is so clever is that if you like another one, I was to do 294 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,320 Dungeons and Daddies puts everything in the Patreon feed. 295 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,000 That means that Apple and Spotify and wherever else I would listen doesn't recognize me listening 296 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,540 to the directory listing. 297 00:16:26,540 --> 00:16:30,000 So their ranking isn't benefited by how rabbit of a fan I am. 298 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,640 I, they get my money, they get my attention, but their, their discoverability is hurt. 299 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,920 So this one world beyond numbers, it, uh, worlds beyond numbers, it, you still have 300 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,240 to listen to the main feed to get the show. 301 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,840 And then the, the, uh, subscription feed only gives you the bonus content. 302 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,680 My suggestion is follow that model. 303 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:49,680 Absolutely. 304 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,240 If someone's interested enough in paying you, they're happy to have two of your feeds in 305 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,240 the library. 306 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,080 It also gives you two options to be visible when people are scanning through things. 307 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,240 And I think that the thing to keep in mind is that the people who are willing to pay 308 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,000 for your content are also your most engaged audience. 309 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,660 I think it is generally a bad idea to go ad free with them. 310 00:17:09,660 --> 00:17:13,800 I think people should do sponsorship models with that. 311 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,880 Um, back in the day when Hulu started, one of the things they did was you could, and 312 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:18,880 maybe they still do it. 313 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:23,480 Uh, you can watch like a seven minute ad at the beginning, or you could watch 17 minutes 314 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:24,800 of ads throughout the show. 315 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,920 And I'd be like, yeah, seven minute ad and I'll walk away. 316 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,520 Sponsored, like when you buy that feed, right? 317 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,480 When you buy into the ad free feed, if we, if the episode started off saying this episode 318 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,960 is brought to you ad free by state farm, I love my safe farm rep. 319 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,740 They've saved my life multiple times. 320 00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:43,420 Check it out with this promo code. 321 00:17:43,420 --> 00:17:45,760 Now back to the uninterrupted show. 322 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,760 Thanks to state farm. 323 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:52,680 It's kind of a, you know, an easy way to make sure that you are still getting to that audience 324 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,500 without really violating that trust. 325 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:57,440 And so I'm, I'm all for it. 326 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:58,440 I listened. 327 00:17:58,440 --> 00:17:59,440 Let's see. 328 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:00,440 What do I subscribe to? 329 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,820 I think I'm going to subscribe to the 330 00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:06,820 one. 331 00:18:06,820 --> 00:18:07,820 Dory plus kids. 332 00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:10,400 Oh, my wife subscribes to one Dory plus kids because even though we have Amazon music, 333 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:16,720 she does not want to listen to podcasts anywhere, but Apple music, Apple podcasts, Apple podcasts. 334 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:17,720 Wow. 335 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,720 What, why is that? 336 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:21,720 This is a fun one. 337 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:26,420 I think that podcast players are like browsers and not like streaming video destinations. 338 00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:31,960 I think Spotify spent millions of dollars to prove that to us in the course of a year 339 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,200 that people are not really interested in having multiple podcast players or multiple music 340 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,920 players on their phone. 341 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,400 I have Amazon prime video, Netflix, Hulu. 342 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:49,120 I think I have paramount, uh, max Disney plus I have all of those because half the other 343 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:51,200 things that I pay for give me one of those three. 344 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,200 Oh, Apple TV. 345 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:53,200 Right. 346 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:54,200 But those are destinations. 347 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,240 They're not browsers. 348 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,840 I stubbornly use Safari. 349 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,640 We're on Chrome right now so we can record on Riverside, but it doesn't work very well 350 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:03,640 on Safari. 351 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:08,480 But like, I will stop going to certain websites because it doesn't work well with Safari because 352 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,280 I have a browser. 353 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:11,480 I like the performance. 354 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,680 How I like, I use it that way. 355 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,120 That's what I think podcast players are. 356 00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:19,560 That's where I think, you know, when people are upset about how much Spotify damage quote 357 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,160 unquote Spotify did to this face. 358 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,920 No, I think they bought us five years of knowledge real early. 359 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,160 It's interesting because some people say like the opposite that Spotify is ruining podcasting. 360 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,800 So it's an interesting take. 361 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,120 I never thought of it that way. 362 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:34,880 I guess they bought that a little bit more. 363 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:35,880 I guess they're not a try. 364 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,280 Like just, just imagine that we also focus with Spotify too much on the content, right? 365 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:41,280 Like sure. 366 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:42,640 They've made some wild content plays. 367 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,560 They inflated the price. 368 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,320 They convinced production companies that they also needed to do growth and sales and all 369 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,040 these things. 370 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,160 People with not enough business acumen, we did their business plans during that boom 371 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:59,680 saying that this 10 X growth we saw can last for five more years. 372 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,420 That was bad, but they bought, uh, with it, they bought anchor huge, right? 373 00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:09,360 They bought megaphone, whooshka, um, uh, pod sites, chartable. 374 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,140 Their ad tech game is on point. 375 00:20:11,140 --> 00:20:14,840 Megaphone was one of the best ad sellers in podcasting period. 376 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:15,840 I mean, they used to be Pina. 377 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,600 They used to be a production company. 378 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,240 And then by getting further into ad sales and building a hosting platform or acquiring 379 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,120 rather, um, they, they pivoted the entire company away from production because in one 380 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,060 quarter they made what Pina made in the previous year. 381 00:20:29,060 --> 00:20:30,400 So I don't know. 382 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,480 I think we're really hard on Spotify because it's easy to post, uh, point to archetypes 383 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,800 or Joe Rogan or, you know, call me daddy or call her daddy. 384 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,040 And like that, yeah, that's what my mom reads about. 385 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,360 But when I read about pod sites being acquired and attribution being free and podcasting, 386 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,560 it's a big deal. 387 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:49,560 Hmm. 388 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,520 Yeah, I guess I really do need to think about that a little bit more. 389 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:53,520 Fast. 390 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,520 It's okay to have someone. 391 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,240 Yeah, but if you want to have a demon, have a demon, have somebody to blame, it's super 392 00:20:58,240 --> 00:20:59,240 okay. 393 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,720 Like it doesn't, I don't think if it drives people to be better and motivate themselves, 394 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:03,720 it's great. 395 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,240 But yeah, I mean, this was pirate radio. 396 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,720 This was podcasting hit 20 years and now at the 20 year point, like we've been disrupted 397 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,200 by major money in this space. 398 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,540 We're held hostage by the podcast players who won't give us more data, won't send us 399 00:21:17,540 --> 00:21:22,400 any additional signals about listens and or agree on what a listen is between them. 400 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,080 It's a yeah, it can be really overwhelming, but there's no other channel like this. 401 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,560 Like I guess I can self host videos on my website, but if it's not on YouTube, no one's 402 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,760 going to watch it or tick tock or anything like that. 403 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:42,280 What other like besides a blog or a newsletter really, this is the most animated medium I'd 404 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,640 say that can exist on an open channel. 405 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,440 I guess my big fear was that like they'd wake up one day and be like, Oh, well podcasting 406 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:51,440 is not profitable. 407 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,440 Let's just kill it. 408 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,680 Cause they have, there's such a numbers game people. 409 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,680 Sure. 410 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,760 I think it costs them very little to support podcasting in their app. 411 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,000 I think that it's revenue positive. 412 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,200 And I think that worst case scenario, the podcast, uh, it, it gets them out of royalties 413 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,920 and it gets them away, uh, gets them more types of audio to sell. 414 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,800 So I think Spotify is a solid sales house. 415 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,560 I think there are a lot of people who just spend in audio on Spotify and I think they'll 416 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,120 continue to have options there. 417 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:23,400 Do I expect them to innovate at the same rate that they were before? 418 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,520 Um, not in ways that I'm excited about their, their visions around AI and what they could 419 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,840 do there are terrifying to me. 420 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,160 Um, but you know, uh, I don't think, I don't think they're going to wake up and turn it 421 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,160 off. 422 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,400 I also don't think that they have the engineering resources to just pull it out without damaging 423 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,440 the whole app at this point. 424 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,720 Well that's at least good news. 425 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,840 So now you had mentioned burger money or mortgage money. 426 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,940 Um, with the whole business plan thing, do you think podcasters need a business plan 427 00:22:55,940 --> 00:22:58,040 in order to get there? 428 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,040 Well I don't have a business plan and I'm three years into this and just kind of winging 429 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,040 it. 430 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,040 Um, I don't know. 431 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,640 I mean, I think that if it is a business and your goal and it's a competitive market, like 432 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,180 what we started, there wasn't anybody else doing it. 433 00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:10,180 So I'm trying to figure it out. 434 00:23:10,180 --> 00:23:13,880 I'm trying to find peers in other industries and I'm still struggling on that end. 435 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,740 Um, I think in podcasting you have tons of peers, you have millions of peers. 436 00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:22,520 And I don't think that it's any different than book publishing or, uh, you know, creating 437 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,200 YouTube content. 438 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,480 So I think that you should have a strategy and you should have benchmarks. 439 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,040 You should have a bare minimum that you're willing to do even if the number is zero or 440 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,280 negative and then you got to have lines. 441 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:34,480 You have to have a reassess it. 442 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,400 It is absolutely okay. 443 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,800 Three months into it to go, this is no longer fun. 444 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,600 And I'm negative money from it, but you need to determine like, how do you keep it fun? 445 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,240 How do you keep it light on the money? 446 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:52,580 I think, you know, uh, recently, maybe recently, maybe about a year ago, Aaron Manke of lore 447 00:23:52,580 --> 00:23:56,640 remastered his first episode, like re-edited the whole thing, redid it. 448 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,040 And it was astounding the difference between the two. 449 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,400 And if you listen to his recent stuff, it's so great. 450 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,400 And it's of the same caliber. 451 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,860 If you went back to the original, like, you know, it's, it's a sign of its times. 452 00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:12,560 It's not a negative, but I think, I think perfection is the enemy of good. 453 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,520 I think, uh, I think momentum matters a lot more than anything else. 454 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,880 And I think that people just need to be realistic. 455 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,040 I think commitment is the most important thing. 456 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,720 So it sounds like to you done is better than perfect. 457 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:27,720 Oh yeah. 458 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,600 Where are we right now? 459 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,600 I'm literally using AirPods using the Mac book microphone, which I'm incredibly embarrassed 460 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,480 about in what looks like basically a gray dungeon closet at a co-working space because 461 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:40,880 I wanted to record this with you. 462 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,840 I wanted to make sure that we could get this out here and I won't be back at my very nice 463 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,240 studio setup until the last week in August. 464 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:54,920 So to me, it's really, really important to take advantage of what you can own your shortcomings 465 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,640 and then figure out how you fix it. 466 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,080 Or maybe that's just part of your style. 467 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,080 Yeah. 468 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:01,080 Wow. 469 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,080 That this is fantastic. 470 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,080 So far. 471 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,540 I've taken, I've taken more notes than I care to admit, but, uh, I do have to ask you. 472 00:25:07,540 --> 00:25:12,320 So when it comes to, like I said, the, the person who's just started, if they wanted 473 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,240 to get to that mortgage money, what's the very, very, very first thing that you would 474 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:21,360 say to them other than like, okay, yeah, you have your goal, but where would you tell them 475 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:22,360 to start? 476 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,600 Because the big thing is so many people like the, we froze. 477 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,000 You said if they want to get to that and then it froze everything out, if they want to get 478 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,920 to that mortgage money, if they want to get that mortgage money, you want to start your 479 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:33,920 part over again on that? 480 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:34,920 Sure. 481 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:35,920 Sure. 482 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,680 So we've talked about a lot and I've taken a lot of notes and I'm super, super excited 483 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,680 about everything that you've said, because everything you said has been gold so far. 484 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,200 But I kind of want to go back to, you know, the people that come to us, they're scared. 485 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,200 They're just beginning. 486 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,960 They're nervous about, you know, going up and try and get their first sponsor because, 487 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,480 you know, like, like you were saying, you know, if you, if you don't have any track 488 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,080 record, if you don't have any episodes in the hopper, how do you begin getting towards 489 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,080 that mortgage money? 490 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,320 But you know what, like how do you, how do you get there so you can get out of that day 491 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,240 job and do this full time? 492 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,320 You know, so first thing I would say is like, here's a great example. 493 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,960 Let's talk about your story for a second here. 494 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,920 You're working with RSS.com, right? 495 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:17,920 Yes. 496 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:18,920 Okay. 497 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,400 How many other podcasts do you have? 498 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,400 One right now. 499 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,400 Okay. 500 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:24,400 And it's bloggy friendship. 501 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:25,640 How many more do you want? 502 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,040 I would love to do a bunch more, but I don't know what I mean by that because I have all 503 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:36,480 these ideas and that it's figuring out the execution of all of it. 504 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,040 Does working with RSS enable you to work on your own podcasts and have fun with it? 505 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,040 Yes. 506 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,040 Yes. 507 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:50,280 So Evo Terra at the last podcast Academy Awards or whatever it is, like the podcast Hall of 508 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,960 Fame, I think it was. 509 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:59,720 Evo Terra has, Evo Terra said something really interesting that the best way to earn money 510 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,240 in podcasting is get a job in podcasting. 511 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,020 And so if you want to be close to the action, let me tell you the business side, we need 512 00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:06,080 tons of people. 513 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,360 We need people who understand content. 514 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:09,840 We need people who want to learn more about advertising, all of that. 515 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,480 There's always jobs available and tons of opportunity there. 516 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,480 The FU money, I don't know if it exists. 517 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,820 I think like today for someone to have that, I would say that they would have to have been 518 00:27:19,820 --> 00:27:27,600 an established creator somewhere and have the following to drop something and it just 519 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,000 explode, right? 520 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,880 I think that's the only way to get there from like zero to 60 real quick. 521 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:39,000 I think that the most important thing is that if you're not having fun, I think Justin Jackson 522 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,840 or of Transistor shared this or something, if you're not having fun, your audience isn't 523 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,400 likely not having fun consuming it. 524 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,320 So that's really important. 525 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:54,760 You need to create something really good and it can be the same as everybody else. 526 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,760 There's a handful of stuff that my wife consumes that I consume as well, but we consume it 527 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,960 from different creators because we like how they present it, right? 528 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,960 That's really important. 529 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,520 Like it is okay to not make something unique, but if your passion is there and people can 530 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,320 buy into it, it'll build, but it's a slow build, right? 531 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,400 It's like trying to build a snowman over the course of several years. 532 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,240 You roll that ball bigger, bigger, bigger. 533 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,960 You try your best to keep it from melting. 534 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,720 You hope that the winter is good next year and you keep trying to build it and build 535 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:26,800 it and build it. 536 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,320 And I think that at a certain point it becomes weather resistant. 537 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,600 So I think the biggest thing is consistency. 538 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:38,080 I think that if my true advice would be not to monetize for a year unless someone comes 539 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:44,140 to you and if you are so excited and so having so much fun and naturally marketing it and 540 00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:48,740 people are talking word of mouth and an advertiser comes to you, yeah, sell your soul, sign 541 00:28:48,740 --> 00:28:51,280 away, whatever, do whatever you're going to do, right? 542 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,800 If they say they want to license your podcast and it's enough to quit your job, do it. 543 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,520 If they say they want you to do brand new content that gives you a three month runway 544 00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,840 to quit your job, do it. 545 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:06,280 But I think that the next set of dollars in this space are either going to be people who 546 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:12,480 know how to create, who have a track record, people who build something net new, interesting. 547 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:19,160 I mean, everyone's talking about the Who's Chat on the Floor at My Wedding podcast. 548 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,760 And that podcast has gotten a lot of attention, right? 549 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,240 It's such a neat new thing that everyone's like, wow, I got to try that out. 550 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,360 I think going those routes, like I think that that's the way to go. 551 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,840 I think be a creator and then let it happen. 552 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,080 There's so many interesting people out there. 553 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,220 Jay Klaus, I read a lot of his stuff. 554 00:29:39,220 --> 00:29:44,200 He talks candidly about how much money he makes every month as a creator and how it 555 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,700 is gone from like he easily had years where he was like eating ramen, right? 556 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:52,340 And then now he's like at half a million a year and he's killing it. 557 00:29:52,340 --> 00:29:54,400 And that's phenomenal. 558 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,400 These things aren't easy. 559 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:56,400 They don't happen overnight. 560 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,600 And the people who are looking to spend money are looking for your track record. 561 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,920 Yeah, it's the, what is it? 562 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,600 The 15 year overnight success story. 563 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:05,600 Yeah. 564 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Yeah. 565 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,480 I mean, that's like literally people are like, wow, Brian, you got you lucked out with this 566 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:10,480 and sounds profitable. 567 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,940 And look, I think luck is opportunity plus preparedness. 568 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:14,940 There was a hole. 569 00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:16,240 There was room for us to do that. 570 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:23,400 I also have 13 years of like causing substantial ad tech damage in other industries. 571 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,160 And so I messed up. 572 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,360 It's not that I know the successes of it. 573 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,160 I know we're not to mess up again. 574 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,640 So it's like fail until you win. 575 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:33,640 I think so. 576 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,640 I just keep moving forward. 577 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,560 Well, speaking of one of the things that kind of amused me is earlier in our conversation, 578 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,600 you said that you were a failed history teacher. 579 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:45,400 And a little known fact about me is I was actually on track to be a social studies teacher 580 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:52,320 myself and then I took a class on beginning reporting and changed my major to mass comm 581 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,320 and I never looked back. 582 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,560 I, I, it's interesting that the paths we take. 583 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,320 I'm excited that you changed yours. 584 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,980 I just dragged out my student loans for an extra year taking BS classes and then then 585 00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:09,600 just left and moved to New York to get into ad tech because I got the opportunity there. 586 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,800 So at least you finished your degree. 587 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,840 I am a five year college dropout. 588 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,400 Hey, I, you know, it's funny cause like going back, like if I could, if I could go back, 589 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,040 I don't know if I even would have graduated. 590 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,800 I would have just kept staying in school because when I said I was a student, I got more yeses 591 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:26,800 than when I graduated. 592 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,520 So it's, it's interesting the way that things work with that kind of stuff. 593 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,800 See for me, it's the food court and then access to the gym and the knowledge that I probably 594 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,840 should have worked out a little bit more in college. 595 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,040 Well not only that, all the discounts they give to students. 596 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,040 I mean, come on. 597 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,600 I mean, I've even often joked that I was going to go back to school just so I could tap into 598 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:47,680 some of those student. 599 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,400 Just get that ID, sign up for that Apple discount. 600 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,400 Exactly. 601 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,400 Just get that. 602 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,400 What is it? 603 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,320 It's like, Oh, you know, one class a semester, the one credit that you take and it's cheaper 604 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,360 than like your gym, your library, all the things. 605 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,360 100%. 606 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:01,360 100%. 607 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:07,320 Well, we've covered a lot, but is there anything in the advertising and marketing and not marketing, 608 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,000 advertising and monetization space that we haven't covered that you really want to make 609 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,160 sure we tell our listeners? 610 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:19,720 I mean, look, at the end of the day, just like, whew, someone comes and offers you something 611 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,440 and it's interesting and it's not going to hurt you and you can move away from it. 612 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:24,440 Do it. 613 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,360 Take the opportunity. 614 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,760 Don't get upset if you're trying to promote yourself and people are not willing to listen 615 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:31,760 to who you are. 616 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,760 Like just keep creating. 617 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,160 Like everybody talks about how your hobby should never become your job. 618 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,880 And that's it's true because if you start to hate your hobby, then your job suffers, 619 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:44,880 right? 620 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,520 Like if chasing advertisement and being able to quit your job is the only way you'll be 621 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,440 happy podcasting, I don't think that that's healthy. 622 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,880 I don't think that that's a good idea today. 623 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,200 There's so much content out there. 624 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,220 If I was an advertiser, I could use a number of tools out there to find shows from 50 downloads 625 00:33:01,220 --> 00:33:07,000 to 500,000 downloads an episode a month, and I could spend money with them and figure that 626 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,000 out. 627 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,520 But the idea of your content is can't miss. 628 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,520 It's a long process. 629 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,440 And I mean, look, we're looking at a writer's strike and an actor's strike and, and all 630 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,440 of that. 631 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:18,800 A lot of that is about IP and ownership. 632 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:24,960 I honestly hope that podcasting receives the benefit of all that and that to the people 633 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,480 we're talking to that makes your job harder. 634 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,520 But if you love what you're doing at a minimum, like think about this, how do you, how do 635 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,020 you get enough value from your podcast to want to keep doing it? 636 00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:41,320 If you're in sales and it's a B2B style podcast and you're able to have an interview with 637 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,200 someone that usually wouldn't take a sales call from you, that's huge, right? 638 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,240 Like being able to engage with that person in an environment that you make them look 639 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,240 good. 640 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,560 You help them market and build content and then you get to talk to them. 641 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,160 You've just expanded your circle. 642 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,720 That, that's worth it. 643 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,320 That costs money in a post. 644 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:04,600 Well, I mean, a still COVID world, a post lockdown world networks are smaller. 645 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,860 So if literally all your podcast does is allow you to expand your network pays off in spades 646 00:34:09,860 --> 00:34:13,360 six years down the road when that person's looking for a job and you can help them out 647 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,980 or vice versa or some opportunity pops up and they remember how could you made them 648 00:34:18,980 --> 00:34:21,760 look and feel like that's really it. 649 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,520 And as someone who has so many friends around the country that I don't spend enough time 650 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:31,520 with, we've thought about just starting a podcast so that we have consistent requirement 651 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,320 to hang out and engage with each other, even if we never publish it. 652 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:36,960 So I don't know. 653 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,160 I think, I think if you want to make money in podcasts and get a job like Ashley and 654 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:46,480 I have in the industry of podcasting and then also make podcasts, if you want to create 655 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,140 a small business, go for it. 656 00:34:48,140 --> 00:34:53,080 But I think, I think that you should expect the barrier to be when you're doing that, 657 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,600 you're competing with every single person out there who calls themselves a creator in 658 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:03,080 a side of the industry that is still fighting for attention. 659 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,080 Such good stuff. 660 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,400 And you know, ironic that I'm about to say what I'm about to say considering this entire 661 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,880 episode is how to make money podcasting. 662 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:17,200 But to me, one of the big things is it's okay to not even make money podcasting. 663 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,760 It's okay for this to just be your hobby. 664 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,280 You know, one of my favorite mentors, Denise Duffield Thomas, she always says that she's 665 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,160 like, you're allowed to have hobbies. 666 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,160 You're allowed to have a hobby that doesn't make you any money at all. 667 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,800 And you know, just as something that's been coming through this entire interview, that 668 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,480 just keeps coming up in my mind is like, yeah, you could, you know, work on this and make 669 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,160 this your slow burn until you finally make money at it. 670 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,600 But at the same time, it's okay if you just, like you said, just want to get together with 671 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,440 some people and talk to them on camera as your, as your incentive to just hang out. 672 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,440 I like that. 673 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,040 I like that a lot actually. 674 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,920 Ray Palermo at Megaphone, one of the best like reps I've ever interacted with, the pleasure 675 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,440 working with her when I worked at Megaphone has at least one podcast under a different 676 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,120 name and she won't tell anybody about it. 677 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,280 She's been working in podcasting forever. 678 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:13,280 She loves it, but her podcast is hers and her listeners. 679 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,240 And it's not something she shares with potential clients or anything, anybody like that, but 680 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:21,460 it allows her to be in touch with the industry, get her points across and do the things she 681 00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:23,840 wants to do, be creative and express it. 682 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,680 And they're two separate things. 683 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,920 And that love of the industry is visible in everything she does. 684 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,880 And like that, she is a shining example of that. 685 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,680 And so, you know, I just, I really hope just people have fun with it. 686 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,920 My oldest son is five years old. 687 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,680 I have recordings. 688 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,120 The first few episodes of the Sounds Profitable podcast, I would have him, when we did the 689 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,640 narrated articles, I would have him read, I would be like, Theo, can you say wrapping 690 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:47,640 it up? 691 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,640 And he'd say, wrapping it up. 692 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,840 But I have a recording where, what do we say? 693 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,520 I said, Theo, anything else you want to tell the audience? 694 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:54,520 And he says, tubes. 695 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:55,520 So what? 696 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,680 He goes, tubes in the bathtub, because we just got him like tubes to do like the water 697 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,400 stuff, where you pour water in the tubes. 698 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,800 And he was like three years old and he was over the moon to tell my 300 listeners, who 699 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,360 I'm often convinced is just my mom 300 times, you know, that he got this new thing. 700 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:13,360 And it's amazing. 701 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,360 I'll have that forever. 702 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,360 It's stuck on my phone, right? 703 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:16,360 Like it's- 704 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:17,360 It's like a little time capsule. 705 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,640 It's like, think of audio and all that stuff. 706 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,680 We, I just lost some family recently. 707 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:28,680 I think constantly about giving a microphone to my parents to have them read my kids' favorite 708 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:29,680 stories. 709 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,920 So when they have kids of my parents aren't around, their kids can hear their grandparents' 710 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,000 voice and or great grandparents' voice. 711 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,120 And I don't know, audio is amazing. 712 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:44,520 I, I just, I feel bad for the people that lose excitement in it because they can't make 713 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,000 the money they want and I encourage them to just find out what they love about it. 714 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,240 Because if you love it and it's visible, people listen, you grow a following and then it all 715 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,320 works out. 716 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,320 It's not perfect. 717 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:01,800 It doesn't happen for everybody, but I, I feel that that will work easily 75% more of 718 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,560 the time than a manufactured thing. 719 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:04,560 All right. 720 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,200 I refuse to let you get me emotional, but that was really beautiful. 721 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,360 All of that was, I'm fine. 722 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,480 I'm fine. 723 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,480 Everything's fine here. 724 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,520 So that was kind of deep. 725 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:20,840 I didn't intend for it to go that way, but some of the stuff you were saying just really 726 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:21,840 like struck a nerve. 727 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:27,320 And because, you know, we had to leave this year from Afros and Audios on recently and 728 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,640 he was talking about how, you know, his audio is like a time capsule. 729 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,600 It's, you know, that joke that's been going around, like my mom has a private podcast, 730 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,600 but it's really just her leaving me, you know, 45 minute voicemails. 731 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:45,520 But it's like, you kind of want to have that audio just so it's like a moment in time that 732 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:46,520 you can keep. 733 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:47,520 It's yours. 734 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,520 Yeah. 735 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,520 Yes. 736 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,120 Oh, this is so good. 737 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:52,120 So good. 738 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,520 Well, before I let you go, I have to ask you the one question I ask every guest before 739 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:56,760 I let them off. 740 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,720 And that is what is one question I didn't ask that you really wish I had. 741 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,560 Oh my God. 742 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,720 That's not- That's usually the response I get. 743 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:10,600 No, now, now the best part about this is I'm going to ask you to cut this long pause here, 744 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,840 but you're not going to do that because that would be unfair to everybody else. 745 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,240 I'm the one thing. 746 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:23,280 That's so unfair. 747 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,240 We didn't even touch about YouTube. 748 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:26,240 I think that's it. 749 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:27,600 And I'm not going to answer it. 750 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,480 You didn't ask me about my thoughts on YouTube. 751 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,920 And now, and folks, stay tuned for the part two where Ashley is now forced to bring me 752 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,640 back so we can talk about YouTube. 753 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:38,640 That was slick. 754 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,760 That is the most brilliant marketing I've had of any guests we've ever had. 755 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,480 Everybody take notes because that is brilliant. 756 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,480 I love it so much. 757 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,520 I can't even explain to you how much I love that. 758 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,560 I'm not even going to answer it. 759 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,880 I'm not going to force it at all. 760 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,440 I will bring you back for a part two. 761 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,160 We will definitely do this again. 762 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,820 And Brian, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me and 763 00:39:59,820 --> 00:40:00,820 everything you've shared. 764 00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:02,800 Like I said, took a lot of notes. 765 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,440 Can't wait to look over all of them and definitely harass you down the line. 766 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:07,440 Please, anytime. 767 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:12,160 And listen, folks, anybody who is listening to this, soundsprofitable.com, you can subscribe 768 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,160 to all of our stuff for free. 769 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,080 Bryan at soundsprofitable.com. 770 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:17,520 I spell it with a Y. 771 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,920 I obviously set an alias to do it with an I. 772 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,080 Literally, if you hit reply to any of the newsletters and ask a question, it goes to 773 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,080 me. 774 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,120 You email me, it goes to me. 775 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:26,840 I would like all of you to succeed. 776 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,340 I would like this industry to be 10, 20 times the size it is right now. 777 00:40:31,340 --> 00:40:34,240 We are not overwhelmed with the number of podcasts. 778 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:35,240 Look at the number of books. 779 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:36,740 Look at the number of YouTube channels. 780 00:40:36,740 --> 00:40:39,720 Look at the number of blogs out there, right? 781 00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:41,280 Don't let anybody get in your head. 782 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,480 I would like all of you to feel successful in whatever that means in podcasting. 783 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:46,680 And I'm here for it. 784 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,320 If I can't answer your question easily, I'll pass you to someone who can. 785 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:51,940 And you know, please reach out. 786 00:40:51,940 --> 00:40:54,000 Do not suffer in silence. 787 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,240 We're here to help each other. 788 00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:57,240 I love that so much. 789 00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:58,240 Well, thank you again. 790 00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,480 And I look forward to part two. 791 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:06,520 I don't know when we'll record it, but we will definitely make it out. 792 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,360 Yeah. 793 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:15,760 Well, my fellow podcasters, we hope you enjoyed the insights, tips and ideas shared in this 794 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,760 episode. 795 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,000 To learn more about launching and growing your own show, head over to rss.com backslash 796 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,000 blog. 797 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,320 And if you're ready to launch a podcast of your own, you can get started for free with 798 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:28,840 your first episode on us. 799 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,640 Thanks for tuning in.