WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.720 Welcome to episode 241 of the G2 on 5G. It's 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:06.120 the latest insight scoop on everything 5G and 00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:09.460 6G. Cover six topics in about 20 minutes, and 00:00:09.460 --> 00:00:10.939 it's brought to you by More Insights and Strategy. 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:13.140 I'm Will Townsend, and joining me again this 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:15.820 week is fellow analyst Anshul Sag. Let's get 00:00:15.820 --> 00:00:17.859 started, but before we do, I have some news to 00:00:17.859 --> 00:00:20.160 share. After nine years of More Insights and 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.440 Strategy, I've decided to strike out on my own 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:25.120 in the new year. It's been a great run, and our 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:27.100 podcast, unfortunately, is going to be coming 00:00:27.100 --> 00:00:30.179 to an end. But I'll share more details soon about 00:00:30.179 --> 00:00:33.020 my new adventure. So stay tuned to that. And 00:00:33.020 --> 00:00:35.100 with that, let's get started with my first topic. 00:00:35.140 --> 00:00:37.740 I want to talk about Verizon. And until recently, 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:42.000 Verizon issued some pretty deep price cuts. This 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:44.539 applies to its unlimited ultra, unlimited plus, 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.899 and unlimited welcome plans, where subscribers 00:00:47.899 --> 00:00:51.960 can lock in for three years. And by many measures, 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.000 these are some of the most aggressive rate plans 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:56.479 available out there. There's a lot of concern, 00:00:56.619 --> 00:00:59.479 including from myself, that this could spark 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:02.719 a price war. And is this really what Verizon's 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.459 new CEO should have done as his first move? I 00:01:05.459 --> 00:01:07.159 know you're going to talk about something they're 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:10.299 doing for enterprise and FWA, but what do you 00:01:10.299 --> 00:01:12.379 think about this pretty aggressive move? They're 00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:14.180 typically not the low cost leader, are they? 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:19.280 Yeah, I think this is a consequence of them not 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.219 being the market leader they once were and them 00:01:22.219 --> 00:01:26.920 wanting to find growth. and maybe increase some 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:29.840 of their competitors' churn. And I think we're 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.859 in a place where everyone's essentially battling 00:01:32.859 --> 00:01:36.760 for the same market share. And yeah, price is 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:38.900 a great way to do that. If Verizon believes that 00:01:38.900 --> 00:01:42.040 they can do it and that their investors won't 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:45.079 balk at this, then by all means, I think it would 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:47.019 be very interesting because let's be honest, 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:49.920 T -Mobile started kind of their growth with a 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.340 price war. In the end, consumers win, and I can't 00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:55.420 really see it as a bad thing. But it really comes 00:01:55.420 --> 00:01:57.099 down to whether or not investors will allow this 00:01:57.099 --> 00:02:01.120 to sustain itself. Yeah, Verizon's ARPU was already 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:03.799 under tremendous pressure. They've been shutting 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:06.640 subscribers left and right. And that's based 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:08.699 on the fact that they've really been in last 00:02:08.699 --> 00:02:11.780 place with respect to delivering, from my perspective, 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:16.000 5G standalone. It's interesting how this will 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:18.960 affect the bottom line. And it's one thing to 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.620 claw back customers, but if you don't do it profitably. 00:02:22.189 --> 00:02:23.550 I don't know. It could be a challenge to your 00:02:23.550 --> 00:02:25.229 point. So it'll be interesting to watch this 00:02:25.229 --> 00:02:27.889 and see how it rolls out. But let's go to your 00:02:27.889 --> 00:02:29.789 first topic. You want to talk about Ookla and 00:02:29.789 --> 00:02:33.210 something about cellular is better than Wi -Fi 00:02:33.210 --> 00:02:37.949 in airports? Yeah. So Ookla did a report where 00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:44.060 they compared cellular carriers to Wi -Fi. And 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:46.960 they did this at major airports in the country. 00:02:47.300 --> 00:02:49.280 So they had, let's say at Midway International 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.539 in Chicago, AT &T had almost a gig while the 00:02:52.539 --> 00:02:56.659 airport had 120 megabits per second. John Wayne 00:02:56.659 --> 00:03:02.379 in Orange County, 711 megs on AT &T, 115 over 00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:04.740 Wi -Fi. They were showing the top five and bottom 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:07.280 five for mobile versus Wi -Fi. They did have 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.479 some occasions where Wi -Fi was faster than 5G, 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:15.419 like in George Bush in Orlando. at DFW, at least 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:17.780 on AT &T. But they also showed all, they showed 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:21.719 Verizon, they showed T -Mobile. And yeah, in 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:25.759 a lot of cases, 5G at airports is better than 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:27.460 Wi -Fi. There's also plenty of cases where it's 00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:30.780 worse, but they also showed arrivals. And also 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:32.979 they even had some, they showed different carriers 00:03:32.979 --> 00:03:36.259 performance in different airports. And they showed 00:03:36.259 --> 00:03:39.039 that T -Mobile and Verizon are tied while AT 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:41.639 &T lags a bit. And then they also showed where 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.349 their mobile providers win and then where they 00:03:44.349 --> 00:03:47.270 lose and how many airports it is. So in most 00:03:47.270 --> 00:03:49.889 cases they win and they even have the color coded 00:03:49.889 --> 00:03:52.289 chart on their website. So if you go to the website, 00:03:52.569 --> 00:03:54.909 you can find this. The article is called cellular 00:03:54.909 --> 00:03:57.949 faster than wifi in US airports. And yeah, it's 00:03:57.949 --> 00:03:59.650 just, it's very interesting to see that there's 00:03:59.650 --> 00:04:01.629 very specific airports that are problematic. 00:04:02.150 --> 00:04:04.889 And then there's certain carriers that are just 00:04:04.889 --> 00:04:07.550 better overall. But it was really interesting 00:04:07.550 --> 00:04:10.370 that all three carriers were better than the 00:04:10.370 --> 00:04:13.599 wifi. and george bush airport for example except 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:18.220 for at &t it's just we live this every day and 00:04:18.220 --> 00:04:20.740 it's very interesting that like they even compared 00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:25.500 like wi -fi 5 wi -fi 6e wi -fi 7. unsurprisingly 00:04:25.500 --> 00:04:29.560 wi -fi 7 is non -existent in top u .s airports 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:33.259 yeah there's a lot of wi -fi 5 which is probably 00:04:33.259 --> 00:04:36.699 one of the reasons why yeah and about 25 is wi 00:04:36.699 --> 00:04:41.019 -fi 6 just wi -fi 6 at the top airports Global, 00:04:41.139 --> 00:04:44.860 across the US, it's almost 50%. But it definitely 00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:46.519 seems like there's a modernization that needs 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.019 to occur, which might have been the incentive 00:04:49.019 --> 00:04:52.819 for Ookla to do this. But it's really interesting 00:04:52.819 --> 00:04:56.360 data. I love data. And yeah, I just think that 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:59.439 we're in a place where Wi -Fi needs to improve 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.459 in places that are venues. And we're about to 00:05:03.459 --> 00:05:06.800 be on Wi -Fi 8. Yeah, I think it's a function 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.000 of two things. Number one, you highlighted... 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.860 The age of the infrastructure. My assumption, 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.279 and it sounds like you've confirmed it, is that 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.500 there's a lot of older, I don't want to call 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:18.980 it legacy Wi -Fi infrastructure, but it's quite 00:05:18.980 --> 00:05:22.079 a few generations old. And I would say the second 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:25.439 challenge is lack of densification. What's happening 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.079 with this older infrastructure? Because I experienced 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.259 it, you experienced it, because I traveled half 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:32.579 a million miles this year, and I still have a 00:05:32.579 --> 00:05:36.480 few more to go. It's just not properly, the access 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:39.000 points aren't properly scoped to handle. the 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.000 number of people that are required. And then 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:42.579 you've got older infrastructure and it just makes 00:05:42.579 --> 00:05:44.439 for a terrible Wi -Fi experience. Other than 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.040 like when I'm able to get into American Airlines 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.959 lounge. Yeah, I'm on my smartphone. I'm not even 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:52.759 trying to pull my notebook out unless it's correct. 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.360 Yeah, let's do a 5G notebook. Yeah, there you 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:57.540 go. I need a 5G notebook. Yeah, I hope this really 00:05:57.540 --> 00:06:00.480 provides an impetus to airports that are modernizing, 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.220 especially like my airport that's going through 00:06:02.220 --> 00:06:05.279 a major renovation. Let's factor in the guest 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:08.519 Wi -Fi as well, not just for... back office operations 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.000 and that sort of thing, but actually for passengers 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:12.740 as well. I think it'd be a great idea. I was 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:14.980 just there. I saw the construction happening 00:06:14.980 --> 00:06:18.079 in the middle of the airport. It's definitely 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.399 a lot going on. And we just got a new airport 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:25.279 terminal in San Diego. And I actually haven't 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:27.740 used the wifi yet. Now that I think about it, 00:06:27.819 --> 00:06:31.540 but I guarantee you it's at least wifi six. Yeah, 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:33.660 I'm sure it is. Can't wait to experience that 00:06:33.660 --> 00:06:36.579 next time I go to San Diego, buddy, because I 00:06:36.579 --> 00:06:39.339 was not impressed. Yeah, that old terminal is 00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:42.560 dust. Oh, dude. I already leveled it. That's 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:45.279 amazing. Congratulations on that. Hey, let's 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:47.459 go to my second topic. I'm going to start, I'm 00:06:47.459 --> 00:06:49.180 going to continue to talk about mobility as well. 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:52.660 And I want to talk about NTT DoCoMo. And in November, 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:55.819 I had another opportunity to go to Tokyo and 00:06:55.819 --> 00:06:58.660 attend NTT's R &D forum. And then I got to spend 00:06:58.660 --> 00:07:01.350 a day with DoCoMo. And we got to see some of 00:07:01.350 --> 00:07:04.149 the same demos that I saw the year before. But 00:07:04.149 --> 00:07:06.629 what I learned was that they've been demonstrating 00:07:06.629 --> 00:07:09.910 something around sensing technology. And this 00:07:09.910 --> 00:07:11.389 is something I think you and I have talked about 00:07:11.389 --> 00:07:14.089 on prior podcasts. They presented, at least to 00:07:14.089 --> 00:07:17.810 our group, that sensing technology as part of 00:07:17.810 --> 00:07:22.410 their future 6G stack, if you want to call it 00:07:22.410 --> 00:07:25.899 that. And they're calling it like a human augmentation 00:07:25.899 --> 00:07:29.160 platform with radio sensing. And so let me just 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.680 provide some of the high level points here. They've 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:35.839 worked with some academia to develop this, but 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:38.439 they're calling it field tech. And what's really 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:41.439 cool is that over a very low latency, high throughput 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:45.079 network, you can actually manipulate robotics. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.060 But what's really cool, there's also a haptic 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:51.550 capability to it. where i participated in this 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:54.610 demo where someone moved something and it made 00:07:54.610 --> 00:07:57.629 me twitch the hand that was wearing the sensor 00:07:57.629 --> 00:08:00.110 and it gets you thinking like what could obviously 00:08:00.110 --> 00:08:02.389 there's some medical applications for this there's 00:08:02.389 --> 00:08:05.290 some physical therapy applications for this but 00:08:05.290 --> 00:08:07.810 it's quite interesting and i don't want to go 00:08:07.810 --> 00:08:09.709 into all the details because it gets pretty technical 00:08:09.709 --> 00:08:13.660 but You heard it first here on our last podcast, 00:08:13.779 --> 00:08:17.139 unfortunately, that that's how NTD Docomo is 00:08:17.139 --> 00:08:18.720 going to somewhat differentiate what they're 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.420 doing from a 6G perspective. You and I have talked 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:24.019 about what other carriers and operators are thinking 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:26.980 about. There's a lot of AI -infused capabilities 00:08:26.980 --> 00:08:29.860 in the RAM and the core infrastructure that I 00:08:29.860 --> 00:08:32.000 think we'll see with 6G. It'll be interesting 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.139 to see what the spectrum profiles look like for 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:36.759 6G. But I thought it was interesting. I don't 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:38.679 know if you spent any time with Docomo and know 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:41.330 anything about this field tech. What do you think? 00:08:41.370 --> 00:08:42.970 Could there be some pretty cool applications 00:08:42.970 --> 00:08:46.169 from your perspective? Yeah. The way I look at 00:08:46.169 --> 00:08:48.529 it is the networks are already going to be sensing 00:08:48.529 --> 00:08:55.350 on their own. Yeah. And being able to sense other 00:08:55.350 --> 00:08:59.009 objects and people and things, I think that makes 00:08:59.009 --> 00:09:01.409 sense if the network is even lower latency, because 00:09:01.409 --> 00:09:04.149 it's basically impossible without super low latency. 00:09:04.409 --> 00:09:06.230 But I also think it would be really interesting 00:09:06.230 --> 00:09:09.950 if that sense capability flows through some kind 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:14.629 of AI that determines which sensory outputs or 00:09:14.629 --> 00:09:16.629 inputs you should be feeling or be aware of, 00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:18.049 because there's probably going to be lots of 00:09:18.049 --> 00:09:20.870 inputs and it's going to be important to be able 00:09:20.870 --> 00:09:23.590 to understand which ones are relevant. So I think 00:09:23.590 --> 00:09:27.610 that that will be interesting, but I also, I'm 00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:30.970 also cautious because they, they really tried 00:09:30.970 --> 00:09:34.210 to pitch robotics or 5g specific robotic surgery. 00:09:34.429 --> 00:09:38.649 They did that never panned out. So. I think it's 00:09:38.649 --> 00:09:40.690 also important to understand what things are 00:09:40.690 --> 00:09:43.590 realistic and what things will actually get taken 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:45.789 advantage of. And I still think we haven't even 00:09:45.789 --> 00:09:48.830 scratched the surface with 5G. But I think, unfortunately, 00:09:49.029 --> 00:09:50.830 a lot of those use cases will probably roll into 00:09:50.830 --> 00:09:52.990 6G, even though they're very technically feasible 00:09:52.990 --> 00:09:56.490 in 5G. Yeah. Initially, when I was exposed to 00:09:56.490 --> 00:09:59.169 this technology through Docomo, they were positioning 00:09:59.169 --> 00:10:03.049 it within their 5G stack. But now it's decidedly 00:10:03.049 --> 00:10:04.590 it's going to be a part of what they do with 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:07.940 6G. And it's smart. Because it gives them a level 00:10:07.940 --> 00:10:10.879 of differentiation that's not exactly like everyone 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:13.240 else. Interesting stuff. But hey, let's move 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:15.200 to your second topic. And I know that you got 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:17.779 to spend some time with T -Mobile. And you were 00:10:17.779 --> 00:10:20.500 in Las Vegas for the F1 Grand Prix, correct? 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:22.399 And you want to share some of your experiences 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.120 from that. Yeah, I actually have a write -up 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:29.259 that's publishing pretty soon. And it talks about, 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:33.179 one, T -Mobile's expanded partnership with Formula 00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:35.940 One. They're going to be the... infrastructure 00:10:35.940 --> 00:10:39.799 provider in Las Vegas and in Austin. I think 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:42.480 you and I talked about on Twitter. That's going 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:45.480 to be huge for Coda because that place is a nightmare. 00:10:45.820 --> 00:10:48.220 And it seems like the only infrastructure improvements 00:10:48.220 --> 00:10:51.120 they've made were for private 5G deployments 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.259 for commercial uses, not for consumers or broadcast. 00:10:54.500 --> 00:10:57.379 So that'll be huge, especially with Apple moving 00:10:57.379 --> 00:10:59.799 to take over the entire Formula One license. 00:11:00.139 --> 00:11:02.620 They're probably going to want to shoot 4K everything. 00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:04.779 And that's going to require a lot of bandwidth. 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:07.299 So I think T -Mobile doing that would be great. 00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:09.879 In addition to that, T -Mobile has a huge area 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:13.019 of the Las Vegas Grand Prix that's basically 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:16.460 their zone right around the sphere. And they're 00:11:16.460 --> 00:11:20.299 doing lots of cool activations. They had a 5G 00:11:20.299 --> 00:11:23.059 concert there where the people on stage were 00:11:23.059 --> 00:11:25.460 performing and had people walk around with smartphones 00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:28.559 that were basically live cameras feeding straight 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.279 into the video on stage. So it's like a fan cam 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:34.230 for a concert. which was cool they also had some 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:37.950 drones using 5g but also just like enabling the 00:11:37.950 --> 00:11:40.289 teams to be cable and then also broadcast cameras 00:11:40.289 --> 00:11:42.570 they're really taking advantage of what they 00:11:42.570 --> 00:11:44.629 can do with 5g to improve the fan experience 00:11:44.629 --> 00:11:46.590 but also the broadcast which i think is good 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:50.049 for people and there was a lot of illusion to 00:11:50.049 --> 00:11:56.090 xr and ar and it sounds like they want to potentially 00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:58.929 enable that both for people at home and people 00:11:58.929 --> 00:12:01.159 who are there and i will tell you I brought my 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:04.360 Meta Ray -Ban display glasses with me. And while 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.820 I did get some photos and video and I heard something's 00:12:07.820 --> 00:12:10.480 too loud for that, there are multiple times where 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:12.779 like true AR glasses would have actually been 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:14.899 incredible here. Because you can see where the 00:12:14.899 --> 00:12:16.820 cars are on the track while you're at the track, 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:19.759 right? Who wouldn't want that? At least a fan 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:22.799 that cares. But in addition to that, there was 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.700 a lot going on. They talked about the whole un 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:28.840 -carrier move and how they're going to... make 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.899 it easier for people to switch. Since that announcement, 00:12:32.139 --> 00:12:35.179 TNT has pushed back saying that T -Mobile is 00:12:35.179 --> 00:12:37.159 violating their terms of service. So that's going 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:40.279 to be a battle that occurs. But ultimately, this 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:42.779 is one of those things where it's a real pain 00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:45.879 point for consumers. of any carrier and being 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.539 able to reduce that friction is a net positive 00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:50.919 for the industry. It may be a net negative for 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:53.080 T -Mobile's competitors, but people will start 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:54.740 to have an expectation that switching should 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:57.159 be easier and faster and it will push Verizon 00:12:57.159 --> 00:12:58.980 and AT &T to catch up. And that's ultimately 00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:01.600 what I think matters. And in addition to that, 00:13:01.700 --> 00:13:04.580 to enable that feature and that capability of 00:13:04.580 --> 00:13:07.500 their new service, they're also allowing people 00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:09.899 to have their phones delivered via DoorDash, 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.279 which is an expansion of T -Mobile's. partnership 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:14.139 with DoorDash where they offer free DoorDash 00:13:14.139 --> 00:13:16.639 memberships to their customers. T -Mobile is 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:19.860 doing a lot to reinvigorate the whole un -carrier 00:13:19.860 --> 00:13:23.200 move because they're getting a little bit stale. 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.159 If you ask me, I think the most compelling un 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.940 -carrier was probably the satellite connectivity. 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:32.659 And that was a couple of years ago now. Obviously 00:13:32.659 --> 00:13:34.279 it took them a while to roll it out, but the 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:36.639 announcement at least. I think this un -carrier 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.509 move is much more. compelling and it fits more 00:13:39.509 --> 00:13:41.809 into the ethos of changing the way the cellular 00:13:41.809 --> 00:13:44.990 industry works which was i think how uncarrier 00:13:44.990 --> 00:13:47.889 was originally supposed to be and yeah i think 00:13:47.889 --> 00:13:52.129 t -mobile kind of deepening its partnership with 00:13:52.129 --> 00:13:55.429 f1 and the las vegas grand prix is big because 00:13:55.429 --> 00:13:58.149 it's a growing sport in the u .s popularity is 00:13:58.149 --> 00:13:59.970 growing and that's just like a great marketing 00:13:59.970 --> 00:14:02.990 opportunity but also it's a great way to grow 00:14:02.990 --> 00:14:06.009 with the sport and to continue to be relevant 00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:08.870 and they have perks for T -Mobile customers. 00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:11.669 They have a whole magenta lounge people can use, 00:14:11.769 --> 00:14:13.750 and they have free battery banks you can borrow 00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:15.769 for the day. So it's a pretty good experience. 00:14:15.850 --> 00:14:17.730 And I'll say that they did a good job so far. 00:14:17.889 --> 00:14:19.470 And I think it's only going to continue to grow 00:14:19.470 --> 00:14:22.090 with Apple kind of being the exclusive partner. 00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:25.710 Yeah, I like what T -Mobile is doing from a sports 00:14:25.710 --> 00:14:27.950 activation perspective. We've talked about MLB 00:14:27.950 --> 00:14:30.529 as well, right? Because you and I are big baseball 00:14:30.529 --> 00:14:34.509 fans. And going back to that switching tool, 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:38.340 I understand that AT &T's concern was that they 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.980 were scraping customer data without opt -in. 00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:45.759 And I believe that for at least for AT &T customers, 00:14:46.139 --> 00:14:49.799 T -Mobile deactivated that auto, that kind of 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.000 that auto scrape capability. I believe it's still 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.200 activated for Verizon customers. But I do know 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:57.860 what T -Mobile's doing. They're being aggressive. 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.840 They're recognizing, to your point, the friction 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.379 that's associated from moving from carrier to 00:15:03.379 --> 00:15:06.200 carrier. It's gotten better over the years, but 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.039 there's still a lot of friction there. Yeah, 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.279 so I agree with you. They're leaning back into 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:13.500 their own carrier routes, and I like it. So good 00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:15.639 stuff. But hey, let me hit my third and final 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:17.659 topic. I want to talk about Nokia. We haven't 00:15:17.659 --> 00:15:19.259 done a podcast in a while. There's been a lot 00:15:19.259 --> 00:15:21.600 going on, a lot of travel between you and I, 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:24.820 and just a lot of work in general. But this was 00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:26.720 back in November. It was right before Thanksgiving, 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:29.740 and obviously Nokia's under new leadership. They 00:15:29.740 --> 00:15:31.799 announced that they're splitting its business 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:34.899 into two. No surprise, they're betting really 00:15:34.899 --> 00:15:38.379 big on AI with the partnership with NVIDIA and 00:15:38.379 --> 00:15:39.899 the billion dollars that's being plowed into 00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:43.620 that. But what's really puzzling is that they 00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:48.440 are basically parking their whole focus on private 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.100 enterprise cellular networking. And that's really 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:53.200 interesting. For years, you and I have been talking 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:56.120 about this. It's been a slow tail from an adoption 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:59.779 perspective. But when you looked at Nokia relative 00:15:59.779 --> 00:16:02.919 to Ericsson and there are other players there, 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.519 you could argue that they've been the most successful 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:07.440 if you look at number of customers, number of 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.960 wins, that sort of thing. And so it's really 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.000 puzzling that just, I'm not going to say just 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:14.679 now, this year we've seen really the momentum 00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:18.419 shift with the adoption of private cellular networking. 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.399 And now Nokia is going to park it. And I just 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:24.279 find that really interesting. I think a lot of 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:26.179 other analysts find it interesting and a little 00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:31.200 puzzling. What is your take on all that? I find 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:34.120 it equally puzzling, but I would say that it 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:39.919 also may be a factor in they have a new CEO in 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:43.299 Justin Hotar, right? Yeah. It seems like they're 00:16:43.299 --> 00:16:46.399 trying to go in a different direction. And the 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.600 truth is, I think private 5G is just too slow 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.559 for what they're trying to achieve. I think private 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:55.080 5G to me feels like something that would be much 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.039 more. You would give someone like a Siemens to 00:16:58.039 --> 00:17:01.779 deploy, right? Ten -year contracts. Or an NTT. 00:17:02.179 --> 00:17:06.740 Yeah. Somebody who has the ability to stick with 00:17:06.740 --> 00:17:10.500 it and service the customer and ensure like a 00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:13.400 solid bring up. And it just seems this is another 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:17.660 knock on Nokia's constant changes, right? Yeah. 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.980 People, I think one of Nokia's biggest weaknesses. 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:24.980 is that they're constantly changing, whether 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:29.640 it's for good or for bad. And it's not great 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:31.940 in the business world because people want dependability. 00:17:32.420 --> 00:17:35.160 Stability. Yeah, they want stability and dependability. 00:17:35.299 --> 00:17:38.160 I think that's probably the biggest mistake I 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:40.279 think they're making here, is that they're just 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.960 not engendering much confidence in their future 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.859 if they are dropping one of the businesses that 00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:49.519 have been successful for them. Yeah. Yeah, it's 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:51.440 been a very bright point for them. You could 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:53.779 also argue, What they've been doing with their 00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:55.660 autonomous networks platform, something that 00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:59.299 I've been involved in with Nokia, has been successful. 00:17:59.660 --> 00:18:01.940 But you're right. I think there's a perception 00:18:01.940 --> 00:18:05.099 that at a corporate level, they're going guardrail 00:18:05.099 --> 00:18:07.039 to guardrail. So if you remember it a couple 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:11.019 of MWCs ago, when Pekka, the CEO at the time, 00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:14.440 was at the helm, there was this whole new rebrand 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:16.960 and all this excitement around that. And then 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.059 a couple of years later, we're down. And also... 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:23.359 with that rebrand it was a declarative that they 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:26.099 were serious about enterprise but the challenge 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:29.200 has been for nokia their route to market into 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:34.019 enterprise is not as strong as say a cisco or 00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:38.900 an hpe aruba now with juniper that has alphanet 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:42.519 5g core and they're doing private 5g so the route 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.220 to market's been a little more difficult for 00:18:44.220 --> 00:18:46.880 them and their significant expense and their 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.359 significant friction that goes along with that 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:52.589 I'm not counting them out, but I agree with you. 00:18:52.609 --> 00:18:54.769 This guardrail to guardrail, at least at the 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:56.930 corporate level, it really makes a lot of people 00:18:56.930 --> 00:18:58.650 wonder, hey, is there going to be staying power 00:18:58.650 --> 00:19:01.809 here? So it'll be interesting to see. And Justin's 00:19:01.809 --> 00:19:04.650 still fairly new in the role. Big announcements 00:19:04.650 --> 00:19:08.269 with NVIDIA. Everyone's betting big on agentic 00:19:08.269 --> 00:19:12.309 and generative AI and physical AI and how that's 00:19:12.309 --> 00:19:16.319 all going to progress. I was going to say, you 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.960 mentioned HPE. It's not one of our topics, but 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.559 I wanted to call out that they sold their telco 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:27.279 unit to HCL Tech. Yeah, that was $160 million 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.119 deal. That was another surprising thing. I wasn't 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:33.279 expecting HPE to just unload their whole telco 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.279 business. So that was the group, CTG, that was 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.339 focused on Carrier. And so they had divested 00:19:40.339 --> 00:19:43.640 some assets. They were looking for a buyer for 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:45.480 that for quite some time. So now they're focused 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.380 on enterprise and private cellular within the 00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:49.900 enterprise. But that's interesting news. Thanks 00:19:49.900 --> 00:19:52.000 for bringing that up, man. Hey, let's hit your 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.859 third and final topic, and we're going to close 00:19:53.859 --> 00:19:56.619 it out with Verizon. And you want to talk about 00:19:56.619 --> 00:20:00.019 what they're doing with an enterprise class FWI 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:05.119 solution. Yeah, so they are deploying another 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.720 network slice in addition to the ones that they've 00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:11.599 already announced. And this one is... enhanced 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.500 internet which is specifically targeted towards 00:20:14.500 --> 00:20:17.619 enterprise customers which it considers as large 00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:20.960 corporations with 500 or more employees and this 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.500 will leverage some of the new c -band spectrum 00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:27.839 but they are not saying how much of the spectrum 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.920 they're dedicating to this and verizon has a 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:34.140 pretty big fixed wireless business they were 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.059 actually one of the first ones to deploy with 00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:38.440 millimeter wave initially and they're saying 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.539 that they're going to offer that this offering 00:20:41.539 --> 00:20:45.279 will have 200 megabits down and 45 megabits up 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:48.680 with prioritized access during instances of network 00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.079 congestion we have deprioritization for prepay 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.599 and cheap lines and then we have prioritization 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:59.079 for the customers who pay for the slice and this 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:01.619 is something that i think they want to offer 00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:04.019 i'm really curious to see how they're going to 00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:07.380 actually offer it to enterprises, but they're 00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:09.559 talking about media construction and healthcare 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.299 as being target markets. So I could see definitely 00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:15.259 for broadcasting that can be useful to guarantee 00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:18.619 a certain level of coverage and SLAs, actual 00:21:18.619 --> 00:21:22.000 SLAs for FWA. And then on top of that, there 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.500 could be use for backups or for mobile healthcare 00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:28.119 applications. So I think there's definitely some 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:30.079 opportunities there, but it sounds like it's 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:31.880 more of an offering for people who are already 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.599 Verizon customers. Just another business connection 00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.019 that they can offer to these people because their 00:21:39.019 --> 00:21:42.859 pre -existing not enhanced network slice for 00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:46.539 5G business internet offered speeds of 8 megabits 00:21:46.539 --> 00:21:49.319 to 30 megabits, depending on tier and other factors. 00:21:49.460 --> 00:21:53.700 This is a much more enhanced offering for FWA 00:21:53.700 --> 00:21:56.380 that I think actually feels a lot more compelling 00:21:56.380 --> 00:22:01.900 in terms of speeds, but no word on price. Interesting. 00:22:01.900 --> 00:22:04.019 Yeah, I'm wondering, as you talk through that, 00:22:04.180 --> 00:22:06.779 it made me think about like edge AI use cases 00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:09.420 as well, because you're going to need quality 00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:14.299 of QoS for that sort of application. But yeah, 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:16.839 I know we opened the podcast with my sort of 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.920 dogging Verizon on these price cuts. But then 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:20.759 on the flip side for enterprise, they're doing 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:22.299 something that's a little more innovative. I 00:22:22.299 --> 00:22:24.680 don't know, maybe their new CEO has got this 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:27.859 push -pull plan going on. to win back consumers 00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:31.059 and enterprises. Yeah. And continue to service 00:22:31.059 --> 00:22:33.900 their enterprise customers, which have been some 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:35.640 of their bread and butter for quite some time, 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:39.200 but it's a, Hey buddy, it's bittersweet, man. 00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:42.279 We've been doing this for five and a half years, 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:44.779 almost six years now. And I just want to thank 00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:46.740 you. It's been a lot of fun doing this with you. 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.299 I'm not going away. We're going to see each other 00:22:49.299 --> 00:22:51.480 at events and that sort of thing, but I just 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:53.740 really want you to know like how much I've enjoyed 00:22:53.740 --> 00:22:57.059 working with you over the years. and how much 00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:58.839 I've enjoyed doing this podcast with you. So 00:22:58.839 --> 00:23:00.559 thanks for the opportunity. And who knows, there 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:02.140 may be something new that we can do together 00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:04.119 in the new year. We'll just have to wait and 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:07.539 see. Appreciate it, Will. It's been a long journey 00:23:07.539 --> 00:23:10.839 of making these podcasts work with our schedules 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:14.619 and random things getting in the way or acts 00:23:14.619 --> 00:23:18.720 of God. Babies, you're a father, you're twice 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.109 over now, right? Yep. Yeah, awesome. I've had 00:23:22.109 --> 00:23:24.609 two kids over the period of this podcast. I know, 00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:26.970 man. So we've lived through a lot together. But 00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:30.150 this was a great podcast. Why don't you take 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:33.710 us home? Yeah, and I will say that I'm not sure 00:23:33.710 --> 00:23:36.230 I'm going to let this podcast die on its own. 00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:39.289 All right. I will try and revive it as something 00:23:39.289 --> 00:23:42.529 maybe new and interesting. Yeah. Maybe some 6G 00:23:42.529 --> 00:23:46.470 focus. So that's the plan right now. Cool. But 00:23:46.470 --> 00:23:49.349 nothing too concrete because I refuse to let 00:23:49.349 --> 00:23:52.619 this die. I know. We've both invested a lot in 00:23:52.619 --> 00:23:55.599 it and I hope to see it continue. Almost 250 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:58.539 episodes. Yeah, man, it's crazy. And I'm actually 00:23:58.539 --> 00:24:00.839 talking to someone about doing something in the 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:02.700 new year that's telco related as well. I don't 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:06.259 want to compete with you, but yeah, keep it going, 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:09.880 my friend. Keep it going. Thanks a lot. And thanks 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:12.359 a lot to our listeners. We hope you have a great 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.779 weekend and we'll be back hopefully soon with 00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:18.119 some more updates on what's next for both of 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:19.240 us. Thanks a lot. Happy holidays.