WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.720 And we are live. Welcome to episode 233. Boy, 00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:06.780 that's a lot of episodes, Anshul. Of the G2 on 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:09.179 5G. It's the latest Insight Scoop on everything 00:00:09.179 --> 00:00:13.619 5G and 6G. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes 00:00:13.619 --> 00:00:15.000 and it's brought to you by More Insights and 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:17.160 Strategy. I'm Will Townsend and joining me again 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.039 this week is fellow analyst Anshul Sag. Let's 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:22.120 get started with my first topic. I'm talking 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:24.179 about a lot of infrastructure because that's 00:00:24.179 --> 00:00:26.660 my coverage area. I want to talk about Telefonica 00:00:26.660 --> 00:00:30.420 and no surprise. They are phasing out Huawei 00:00:30.420 --> 00:00:34.399 in Spain and Germany, but not Brazil. This is 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.140 very interesting. Most mobile network operators 00:00:37.140 --> 00:00:40.119 are selling wholesale across the board with the 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.179 rip and replace of Chinese infrastructure. Obviously, 00:00:43.219 --> 00:00:45.679 in the EU and in Spain and Germany, that is a 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:48.820 requirement. Telefonica is heeding that requirement. 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:51.700 But Brazil doesn't have those same stipulations, 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:53.460 and so they're keeping Huawei infrastructure 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:56.859 in place. So I find this really interesting from 00:00:56.859 --> 00:01:00.009 my perspective. And I haven't spoken with Telefonica 00:01:00.009 --> 00:01:03.509 management, but they're obviously not concerned 00:01:03.509 --> 00:01:06.989 about Huawei using its infrastructure in Brazil 00:01:06.989 --> 00:01:11.049 for spy activity and nefarious other sorts of 00:01:11.049 --> 00:01:14.049 things there. So I just, I find it really interesting 00:01:14.049 --> 00:01:16.689 that they're one of the few European operators 00:01:16.689 --> 00:01:19.890 that are cherry picking what they do regionally. 00:01:19.930 --> 00:01:22.989 And obviously there's significant expense in 00:01:22.989 --> 00:01:25.519 ripping and replacing this infrastructure. One 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:27.879 of the ways that ZTE and Huawei did get their 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:31.760 foothold in places like Europe and places like 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.000 the African continent was that they came in with 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:37.680 just incredibly low cost core infrastructure 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:39.959 and rent infrastructure and transport infrastructure 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:43.060 to do that. So what do you think about this whole 00:01:43.060 --> 00:01:47.239 cherry pick scenario with Telefonica? The way 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.599 I describe it is peachy. I think that when you 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:54.859 look at what they do, it's very much about cost. 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:58.760 and regulatory environment, and the regulators 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.939 don't have a policy in place, why wreck and replace? 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:04.939 Why subject yourself to the cost? But apparently 00:02:04.939 --> 00:02:07.200 they're not concerned in Brazil about any sort 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:10.620 of concerns around spying and sweeping and that 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:14.659 sort of thing. I think every carrier, whether 00:02:14.659 --> 00:02:16.620 they're a multinational or a single national, 00:02:16.900 --> 00:02:20.060 they have different strategies based on the countries 00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:23.710 that they operate in. Yeah, based on ARPU, right? 00:02:23.810 --> 00:02:25.870 Some country, it's going to be the average revenue 00:02:25.870 --> 00:02:30.770 per user is going to be lower, right? Yeah, and 00:02:30.770 --> 00:02:33.409 not just that, but also the regulatory environment. 00:02:34.169 --> 00:02:36.629 AT &T operates differently in the U .S. than 00:02:36.629 --> 00:02:39.449 they do in Mexico. And, you know, I'm sure Vodafone 00:02:39.449 --> 00:02:42.169 operates differently in every single region that 00:02:42.169 --> 00:02:44.710 they're in. So I think that's part of it, is 00:02:44.710 --> 00:02:47.310 like Telefónica is actually quite large. And 00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:51.449 they are... following the lead of what the regular 00:02:51.449 --> 00:02:55.030 regulators have pushed them. No, that's a good 00:02:55.030 --> 00:02:57.169 point. It's a cost balance. It's a regulatory 00:02:57.169 --> 00:03:00.409 balance. Yeah. And it's interesting because we've 00:03:00.409 --> 00:03:02.969 been talking about this for many years. It's 00:03:02.969 --> 00:03:05.090 one of those situations where, you know, when 00:03:05.090 --> 00:03:07.270 the U .S. government first brought this up and 00:03:07.270 --> 00:03:11.150 the concern, it was we have grave concerns, but 00:03:11.150 --> 00:03:13.250 we can't share those concerns. It's one of those 00:03:13.250 --> 00:03:16.069 situations where they could tell us they'd have 00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:18.729 to kill us. One of those, you first buy. type 00:03:18.729 --> 00:03:20.550 scenarios. So we, you know, we may never know 00:03:20.550 --> 00:03:23.669 the extent. Bottom line, I'm not going to defend 00:03:23.669 --> 00:03:27.710 Wale, but the infrastructure providers don't 00:03:27.710 --> 00:03:29.530 manage the daily operation of infrastructure. 00:03:29.930 --> 00:03:32.250 It's mobile network operators that do that. And 00:03:32.250 --> 00:03:35.770 there are tons of tools, observability tools, 00:03:36.129 --> 00:03:40.210 monitoring tools that allow them to monitor anomalous 00:03:40.210 --> 00:03:43.110 activity. And there's also a huge scrutiny on 00:03:43.110 --> 00:03:45.509 cybersecurity controls as well within mobile 00:03:45.509 --> 00:03:47.979 networks because They're just so massive and 00:03:47.979 --> 00:03:49.960 there's so many devices and they are difficult 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:53.159 to secure. You and I recently, we spent time 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:56.039 with Zscaler on our standalone episode and we 00:03:56.039 --> 00:03:58.020 were talking about what they're doing with a 00:03:58.020 --> 00:04:01.159 secure SIM. But yeah, it's all super interesting. 00:04:01.379 --> 00:04:03.120 You want to go to your first topic and I did 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.219 catch some news on this and also caught some 00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:08.659 news from the FCC, but once again, EchoStar and 00:04:08.659 --> 00:04:13.650 DISH are avoiding default. Yeah, so. I'm going 00:04:13.650 --> 00:04:16.610 to use the term that our friends at FierceNet 00:04:16.610 --> 00:04:20.290 did, which is Echo Star Dish Boost Mobile. And 00:04:20.290 --> 00:04:22.730 yes, they made a payment that was originally 00:04:22.730 --> 00:04:25.529 due on July 1st, which avoids default because 00:04:25.529 --> 00:04:30.550 it's within 30 days. This was yesterday. Truly, 00:04:33.069 --> 00:04:37.230 if I were someone giving debt or financing debt, 00:04:37.470 --> 00:04:40.970 I would not be dealing with them. But their stock 00:04:40.970 --> 00:04:44.709 did pop 8 % yesterday. as a result of an 8K filing 00:04:44.709 --> 00:04:48.649 that said that Dish was the entity that made 00:04:48.649 --> 00:04:50.430 the scheduled interest payment that was originally 00:04:50.430 --> 00:04:53.790 due on July 1st. And they also said that they're 00:04:53.790 --> 00:04:56.810 still negotiating with the FCC related to the 00:04:56.810 --> 00:04:59.910 Chairman Carr's concern. And I see this as a 00:04:59.910 --> 00:05:04.069 negotiating tactic and as a stalling tactic. 00:05:04.670 --> 00:05:08.110 And it's quite clear that they are negotiating 00:05:08.110 --> 00:05:12.730 because... Kars mentioned his discussions with 00:05:12.730 --> 00:05:16.889 Dish and Charlie Ergen, but also it might be 00:05:16.889 --> 00:05:19.009 that the Trump administration sees Dish as an 00:05:19.009 --> 00:05:22.069 opportunity to free up more spectrum for auctions. 00:05:22.569 --> 00:05:26.829 It's really unclear what will happen here because 00:05:26.829 --> 00:05:29.089 a lot of people are saying that the AK filing 00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:31.750 is pretty vague, but I think we're really in 00:05:31.750 --> 00:05:34.470 a place, I think the company as a whole is in 00:05:34.470 --> 00:05:36.750 limbo. We've even talked how they might even 00:05:36.750 --> 00:05:39.490 be considering merging their mobile business. 00:05:40.110 --> 00:05:43.329 with Mobile X and MVNO. So we'll see what actually 00:05:43.329 --> 00:05:46.350 ends up happening. But I think there's a reality 00:05:46.350 --> 00:05:48.990 where they get some kind of capital infusion 00:05:48.990 --> 00:05:53.709 to stave off the FCC. But truthfully, it feels 00:05:53.709 --> 00:05:56.970 like the FCC wants to take Spectrum from them 00:05:56.970 --> 00:05:59.470 regardless of what they do. I think they might 00:05:59.470 --> 00:06:01.490 give away some Spectrum that they're not using 00:06:01.490 --> 00:06:03.990 because they do have a lot of it. Maybe that 00:06:03.990 --> 00:06:07.069 850 that they had already. They obviously didn't 00:06:07.069 --> 00:06:09.250 buy the 850 that they were supposed to get from 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:12.290 T -Mobile. So I don't really know. It's not like 00:06:12.290 --> 00:06:14.709 they hoarded that spectrum. They just let it 00:06:14.709 --> 00:06:17.370 go. So I'm in a weird place because I don't really 00:06:17.370 --> 00:06:20.129 like the FCC belaying anyone. But I really just 00:06:20.129 --> 00:06:22.129 feel like the FCC is belaying them at this point. 00:06:22.209 --> 00:06:24.769 But again, they have a track record of being 00:06:24.769 --> 00:06:27.310 a spectrum squire. I don't think either party 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:29.589 is really in the right here. And I'm not really 00:06:29.589 --> 00:06:33.430 sure if Dish is no longer a competitive carrier 00:06:33.430 --> 00:06:37.209 that will be good for consumers. Yeah, I'm pretty 00:06:37.209 --> 00:06:39.519 divided on this too. They have been sitting on 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.019 Spectrum for quite some time. I don't think the 00:06:42.019 --> 00:06:44.420 tactics, because I did read a statement from 00:06:44.420 --> 00:06:48.459 Carr. They're trying to put pressure on Dish. 00:06:48.459 --> 00:06:50.079 And Carr is stating, it's like, hey, we need 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.560 to claw back the Spectrum. And hey, it's super 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.779 valuable. This could be a reaction to your point 00:06:54.779 --> 00:06:58.319 in additional, potentially billions of dollars 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.720 could be put back into U .S. government's bank 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.720 account here. The whole notion of DISH and what 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.600 Teamable had to do to invest itself and provide 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.560 them sort of a level playing field was a good 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:13.319 thing. It was going to be a good thing to have 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.699 a fourth competitive MNO, but DISH is clearly 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:21.439 not executed at all. And there's clearly a financial 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:25.800 issue here. And you and I have been talking about 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.579 this for how many years, Ron? Almost as long 00:07:28.579 --> 00:07:31.699 as the whole... Apple modem thing. And that finally 00:07:31.699 --> 00:07:34.500 happened after switch, right? Yeah. It'll be 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:37.139 a shitload of happening squad. Ray, let me go 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:39.139 to my second topic. I want to talk about Nokia 00:07:39.139 --> 00:07:42.160 and they've scored multiple subsea cable deals 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.120 recently. They're two. The most recent one is 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:48.500 to power a connection between Jakarta and Singapore 00:07:48.500 --> 00:07:52.879 in this supporting surge. And surge is an Indonesian 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.240 digital infrastructure provider. And a few weeks 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:59.350 ago, Or actually, no, a few days ago, Nokia announced 00:07:59.350 --> 00:08:02.449 that they would be used in the Medusa submarine 00:08:02.449 --> 00:08:04.370 cable system, which is going to connect North 00:08:04.370 --> 00:08:07.110 Africa and Europe. And that's expected to be 00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:10.189 fully operational by the early part of next year. 00:08:10.370 --> 00:08:13.290 I'm not surprised to see this from Nokia. And 00:08:13.290 --> 00:08:15.050 I think I've mentioned this on prior podcasts. 00:08:15.310 --> 00:08:19.069 They have considerable strength in optical. And 00:08:19.069 --> 00:08:21.290 you can also include Huawei. We were just talking 00:08:21.290 --> 00:08:22.990 about Huawei. They've got strength in optical 00:08:22.990 --> 00:08:25.959 as well as Cisco. But I think this is a great 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:28.740 deal for Nokia because we've been talking about 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:32.419 how both Nokia and Ericsson need to find new 00:08:32.419 --> 00:08:35.740 ways to expand the revenue base. The RAND piece 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:39.840 for 5G has wound itself out. And now the standalone 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:42.720 network are getting deployed with core infrastructure 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.659 deployment. So I think this is super strong. 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.419 I caught this recent article about the Jakarta 00:08:48.419 --> 00:08:51.019 -Singapore undersea cable and light reading. 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:53.960 I don't really see numbers here and what this 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:56.639 deal is going to be worth to Nokia. But it's 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.019 significant because there's another kind of thing 00:09:00.019 --> 00:09:03.440 percolating. And we were just talking about the 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:06.620 rip and replace of cellular infrastructure with 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:08.659 Teleplanica, with Huawei in Spain and Germany. 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:11.879 But there are also concerns about Chinese infrastructure 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.039 that's tied to subsea cables. And that could 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:16.940 trigger a rip and replace. That would be pretty 00:09:16.940 --> 00:09:19.360 considerably expensive when you think about the 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.809 leap. of these undersea cables and what's involved 00:09:22.809 --> 00:09:25.570 in laying them and that sort of thing. Time will 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:28.330 tell if you will see, you know, the rip -remove 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:30.590 place of Chinese infrastructure there. But on 00:09:30.590 --> 00:09:32.330 a high level, I think this is a great news for 00:09:32.330 --> 00:09:35.169 Nokia. It'll be interesting to see how this rings 00:09:35.169 --> 00:09:37.769 the cash register for them. But what are your 00:09:37.769 --> 00:09:40.659 thoughts before we go to your second topic? Do 00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:43.700 you know how big this business is for Nokia already? 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.960 So optical is a huge business for Nokia. And 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.120 so this is obviously a part of their optical 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:51.919 business. And again, it plays to one of their 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:56.580 ranks in optical. So it's significant. It's significant. 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:58.820 It's potentially significant from a revenue standpoint, 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.559 although I don't see the numbers there. But again, 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.120 it does play to their strength and their capabilities. 00:10:04.659 --> 00:10:07.480 So it's very easy to coin your term that you 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:10.470 just used a second ago. I do think optical cables, 00:10:10.529 --> 00:10:14.049 specifically deep -sea cables, are super important. 00:10:14.450 --> 00:10:18.809 Because I think if we were to another global 00:10:18.809 --> 00:10:21.809 war of any sort, that might be one of the first 00:10:21.809 --> 00:10:24.789 things that countries start to nip -snip. It's 00:10:24.789 --> 00:10:29.110 been happening. But those are like warning shots. 00:10:29.450 --> 00:10:32.929 So I think it's important to have these kinds 00:10:32.929 --> 00:10:35.750 of things with backups in place, is what I'm 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:39.299 saying. More deep sea cables are, I think Key 00:10:39.299 --> 00:10:41.240 West could probably use a good deep sea cable. 00:10:41.379 --> 00:10:43.960 So there's going to be more demand for this kind 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.700 of work and both Nokia is at the forefront of 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:49.460 it. Yeah, for sure. And this is supporting the 00:10:49.460 --> 00:10:51.779 whole notion of connecting AI data centers as 00:10:51.779 --> 00:10:54.179 well. And I agree with you. I think we're going 00:10:54.179 --> 00:10:56.940 to see more and I think we could see some activity. 00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:59.940 A lot of this is in the Atlantic and obviously 00:10:59.940 --> 00:11:02.340 when we're talking about Indonesia, we're talking 00:11:02.340 --> 00:11:04.919 about Southeast Asia. But I think there are opportunities 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:07.220 for undersea cables in the Pacific as well. But 00:11:07.220 --> 00:11:09.860 what I like about this particular deployment 00:11:09.860 --> 00:11:12.480 is that it's going to help bridge connectivity 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:16.179 for Indonesia, which has challenges just like 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:18.220 we do in rural parts of America and rural parts 00:11:18.220 --> 00:11:20.279 of Europe and the rest of the world. But hey, 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:22.059 let's go to your second topic. And you want to 00:11:22.059 --> 00:11:25.100 talk about Wi -Fi 8. So the spec details have 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:28.490 been released. And so what's Wi -Fi 8 all about? 00:11:28.830 --> 00:11:32.450 Actually, there's a lot of discourse about this. 00:11:32.509 --> 00:11:38.929 It's known as 80211BN, which is the IEEE designation. 00:11:39.889 --> 00:11:46.769 Kind of like 80211AC, AGN, all letters AY, AD, 00:11:46.990 --> 00:11:49.129 et cetera, right? So these are all the IEEE standards. 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:53.509 And this is going to be next generation. There's 00:11:53.509 --> 00:11:58.200 more of a focus on quality. over peak throughput. 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:04.279 This is like what we with wave two AC, if you 00:12:04.279 --> 00:12:07.220 remember that, which is Wi -Fi 6. Wi -Fi 6 had 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:12.440 two waves and then we got 6D. So this is what 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.940 they're calling this for a high reliability. 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.620 This is about using Wi -Fi for more applications 00:12:18.620 --> 00:12:21.620 than consumer and building Wi -Fi to be more 00:12:21.620 --> 00:12:27.399 robust for robotics. AGVs, drones, and automobiles. 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.120 So that there's more anticipation that this is 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.419 going to be used for enterprise use cases. This 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:36.100 will actually have a great, I think, opportunity 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:39.639 for growth in enterprise. They're saying that 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:42.419 it will have at least 25 % higher throughput 00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:45.820 in challenging signal conditions, which is pretty 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:49.519 much everywhere. It will have 25 % lower latency 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.779 at the 95th percentile of latency distribution. 00:12:53.789 --> 00:12:58.809 lower latency, and 25 % fewer drop packets, especially 00:12:58.809 --> 00:13:01.210 when roaming between access points, which is 00:13:01.210 --> 00:13:03.389 again an enterprise use case. If you think about 00:13:03.389 --> 00:13:05.350 anybody who has a mesh in their home, that's 00:13:05.350 --> 00:13:07.710 going to help them too. But also people who have 00:13:07.710 --> 00:13:10.450 enterprise deployments, these will all translate 00:13:10.450 --> 00:13:13.850 to better real -world performance numbers. So 00:13:13.850 --> 00:13:19.750 I think the focus is on reliability and taking 00:13:19.750 --> 00:13:24.120 advantage of... the existing radio in a better 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.899 way. And there's also talk about using it for 00:13:26.899 --> 00:13:30.179 AR glasses, health monitors, other wearables, 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.700 low latency, peer -to -peer links. So then you 00:13:33.700 --> 00:13:36.000 also think about AI and like how does AI want 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.019 to use Wi -Fi? You also want it to be more reliable 00:13:38.019 --> 00:13:40.779 and have better real world performance. The timeframe 00:13:40.779 --> 00:13:46.179 for this is we got draft 1 .0, which is what 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:51.279 we got. Then the Wi -Fi Alliance will start certification 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:55.259 in January of 2022. Oh, it's pretty far off. 00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:58.480 Yes, there's still quite a job to be had for 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.580 Wi -Fi 8, but we're going to be with Wi -Fi 7 00:14:00.580 --> 00:14:02.879 for quite some time. If you remember the Wi -Fi 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:07.159 7 journey, it wasn't really perfect. We already 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.840 had hardware in place a year before the certification. 00:14:10.340 --> 00:14:14.279 Yeah, there was a lot of pre -cert. So most likely 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:16.480 we're going to start getting hardware in 2027. 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:20.879 Early 27, maybe even late 2026. And we'll start 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:22.899 getting hardware in place and then the certifications 00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:25.379 will come after. I believe that's how it happened 00:14:25.379 --> 00:14:28.019 with Wi -Fi 7. Wi -Fi 7 is a great standard. 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.860 I also think a lot of people haven't made the 00:14:30.860 --> 00:14:33.860 transition to it yet. I think long -term Wi -Fi 00:14:33.860 --> 00:14:36.460 7 will be really good for a lot of reasons. But 00:14:36.460 --> 00:14:39.080 what's interesting is we're not really seeing 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.379 talk of the unification of millimeter wave Wi 00:14:42.379 --> 00:14:45.950 -Fi and sub -6 Wi -Fi, which is... what we've 00:14:45.950 --> 00:14:48.970 had for a long time. No talk about introduction 00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:51.690 of new bands either, but those might come down 00:14:51.690 --> 00:14:54.570 the road. But yeah, I was really expecting Wi 00:14:54.570 --> 00:14:58.429 -Fi 8 to incorporate both millimeter waves and 00:14:58.429 --> 00:15:01.250 sub -6 Wi -Fi, and we're not seeing that here. 00:15:02.649 --> 00:15:05.029 Anyways, lots of interesting stuff to talk about. 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:09.370 He actually has a really long blog that kind 00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:11.610 of details all the things that are coming in 00:15:11.610 --> 00:15:13.710 with Wi -Fi 8, and I think it's actually a pretty 00:15:13.710 --> 00:15:16.409 good read. It's not too technical, but it's technical 00:15:16.409 --> 00:15:18.789 enough that you can understand what's going to 00:15:18.789 --> 00:15:21.129 be the benefit there. They're very clearly showing 00:15:21.129 --> 00:15:24.070 it as an enterprise and industrial, connected 00:15:24.070 --> 00:15:27.970 home, public space and venue benefit. And truthfully, 00:15:28.090 --> 00:15:30.909 let's be honest, Wi -Fi has a lot of room for 00:15:30.909 --> 00:15:32.769 improvement when it comes to high density and 00:15:32.769 --> 00:15:35.990 roaming experiences. Yeah, no, I totally agree. 00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:37.870 So I had a couple of questions for you because 00:15:37.870 --> 00:15:40.850 you're always on. the bleeding edge of all these 00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:43.730 standards, whether it's cellular or Wi -Fi. So 00:15:43.730 --> 00:15:46.909 is there any sort of mention around improving 00:15:46.909 --> 00:15:50.909 the number of devices and security? Because I 00:15:50.909 --> 00:15:53.710 agree with you, what it seems to be is very oriented 00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:57.210 towards a lot of enterprise use cases. I think 00:15:57.210 --> 00:15:59.909 one of the challenges, even in Wi -Fi 7, is that 00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:02.909 the encryption is pretty basic. So is there any 00:16:02.909 --> 00:16:06.750 mention of improving not only the overall number 00:16:06.750 --> 00:16:09.350 of devices per channel? but also the security, 00:16:09.570 --> 00:16:12.330 the encryption tied to it? I did not see anything 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:15.210 related to security. Okay, that's interesting. 00:16:15.509 --> 00:16:19.750 Yeah, but I think that might also be how different 00:16:19.750 --> 00:16:23.789 Wi -Fi vendors differentiate. But you can actually 00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:26.950 go to the IEEE Sanders Association's website 00:16:26.950 --> 00:16:34.210 and read the entire 802 .11 in Wi -Fi and what 00:16:34.210 --> 00:16:37.539 they're doing with EN. It's like a four -year 00:16:37.539 --> 00:16:41.059 journey for them. And they started this journey 00:16:41.059 --> 00:16:45.519 in 2022 and in parallel with Wi -Fi 7 worked 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:47.879 on Wi -Fi 8. There was already a lot of talk 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:50.220 about Wi -Fi 8 before Wi -Fi 7 even came out. 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:55.759 But that's also anticipating the needs of enterprises. 00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:58.980 And I think a lot of people weren't really too 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:03.100 impressed with Wi -Fi 6E. So I think maybe we'll... 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:05.700 I think we did get some security enhancements 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:07.980 with Wi -Fi 7, but to your point, like maybe 00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:10.779 not enough. And yeah, I didn't really see anything 00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:14.019 about security, but I do think that's probably 00:17:14.019 --> 00:17:16.660 where we'll see the vendors differentiate. Yeah, 00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:19.640 I agree. Yeah, and Wi -Fi 6E was for Twitter, 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.819 especially in enterprise environments, you've 00:17:21.819 --> 00:17:25.559 got to validate these solutions, right? And so 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:27.920 I think there were a lot of folks that went through 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.599 that process with the generation before. Skip 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.619 6E and went straight to 7. So it'll be interesting. 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:36.599 This is going to be a long, it's like a long 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:41.319 runway for 8. But I like it. You heard it first, 00:17:41.380 --> 00:17:44.200 our viewers and listeners. Anshul is always on 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:46.380 top of the standards when they pray. But hey, 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.200 buddy, let me hit my third and final topic. And 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:50.519 I want to talk about AT &T and Ericsson. And 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.259 they've reached an open RAN milestone. I was 00:17:53.259 --> 00:17:56.420 unaware that they were working on that. So it's 00:17:56.420 --> 00:18:00.940 called our app. Little R, big A, PP. And so AT 00:18:00.940 --> 00:18:03.559 &T is claiming to be the first communication 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.180 service provider globally to deploy third -party 00:18:07.180 --> 00:18:09.519 R app to optimize its live production network. 00:18:09.779 --> 00:18:13.859 And so what an R app is basically is it's an 00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:18.859 open standard open RAN application. And the reason 00:18:18.859 --> 00:18:21.200 why AT &T and Ericsson are pointing to this and 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:24.460 excited about this. is that it marks a significant 00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:27.059 advancement in the potential for multi -vendor 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:29.660 programmability. We've talked about AT &T and 00:18:29.660 --> 00:18:33.000 Ericsson many times on our podcast, how AT &T 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:35.640 is embracing a fully programmable autonomous 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:39.059 network. I spent time recently with Igalibes, 00:18:39.099 --> 00:18:42.660 that is the AT &T Network CTO. It is actually 00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:46.359 in support of EM Forum and what they are doing 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.539 on a number of different projects, but driving 00:18:48.539 --> 00:18:51.180 the whole notion of autonomous networks. Yeah, 00:18:51.220 --> 00:18:53.440 they're claiming the first, you know, in this. 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.380 And when you look at Open RAN, it's been a start 00:18:56.380 --> 00:18:59.839 and stop effort. And the whole notion and the 00:18:59.839 --> 00:19:03.900 whole idea around Open RAN was, number one, domesticate 00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:06.859 the supply chain, right? Wean ourselves off of 00:19:06.859 --> 00:19:08.779 Chinese infrastructure. But also, ironically, 00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:11.859 Ericsson and Nokia, at least in the United States. 00:19:11.859 --> 00:19:16.920 But in the whole idea was to have this multi 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:20.549 -vendor opportunity. But the reality today. has 00:19:20.549 --> 00:19:23.210 been single vendor open ring. And this is interesting. 00:19:23.329 --> 00:19:26.890 So I'm wondering if this demonstration may lead 00:19:26.890 --> 00:19:30.569 other M &Os to work with, whether it's Ericsson 00:19:30.569 --> 00:19:34.789 or Nokia or Samsung or even Huawei in those parts 00:19:34.789 --> 00:19:36.890 of the world where Huawei still has a footprint 00:19:36.890 --> 00:19:41.470 and see if something like this really gets us 00:19:41.470 --> 00:19:44.910 to a true sort of multi -hander open ring. Because 00:19:44.910 --> 00:19:47.349 from my perspective, it's been single vendor. 00:19:48.109 --> 00:19:50.650 And hey, in AT &T and Ericsson are single vendor. 00:19:50.750 --> 00:19:53.390 But what's interesting, you know, as I've spoken 00:19:53.390 --> 00:19:56.930 with Egal and he and I met in person at the AT 00:19:56.930 --> 00:20:00.450 &T analyst day last December. He and I met at 00:20:00.450 --> 00:20:02.509 a mobile world Congress and I'll probably see 00:20:02.509 --> 00:20:04.670 him at some point in a lot too distant future. 00:20:05.430 --> 00:20:08.170 But to really, from my perspective, to realize 00:20:08.170 --> 00:20:10.309 that the true promise with open rights, it's 00:20:10.309 --> 00:20:12.289 got to be multi -vendor. And I know you've got 00:20:12.289 --> 00:20:14.230 an opinion on this as well. So what's your opinion? 00:20:14.390 --> 00:20:16.450 I think we are in a place where we should have 00:20:16.450 --> 00:20:20.440 multi -vendor. Because it's open RAN. It seems 00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:25.539 like the MNOs haven't really taken a risk on 00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:29.599 vendors that they don't really have trust in. 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.759 I think that's the challenge. And obviously there's 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:35.460 also a huge software environment as well. They 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:38.359 obviously want some kind of open RAN deployment 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.559 that's still going to be compatible with their 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.119 existing infrastructure, which I think causes 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:45.460 them to gravitate to the same vendors. Which 00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:48.529 is funny because... We're not really seeing this 00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:51.849 diversity of vendors in this open rents that 00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:54.730 we were supposed to get. Maybe that changes with 00:20:54.730 --> 00:20:59.529 XG and with what NVIDIA is doing. But truthfully, 00:20:59.589 --> 00:21:01.890 it feels like we're just working with the same 00:21:01.890 --> 00:21:05.490 companies, even though we're supposedly in this 00:21:05.490 --> 00:21:09.289 open rent. It's just this diversity. I think 00:21:09.289 --> 00:21:11.869 we may eventually get there. It's a multi -vendor, 00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:14.799 but obviously they're significant. development 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:17.200 resources that have to be put in place to work 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.740 with an infrastructure provider. So with respect 00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:22.859 to AT &T data, and we talked about that Nokia 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:25.519 was supplying infrastructure to AT &T, but AT 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:27.819 &T, a lot of people thought they doubled down 00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:32.180 on just exclusively Ericsson or the CapEx piece 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:34.539 of it. But there's development that has to go 00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:36.660 with it. And if you talk to AT &T executives, 00:21:37.099 --> 00:21:39.619 they are very transparent and open in saying 00:21:39.619 --> 00:21:41.259 that, hey, we're driving towards an ecosystem. 00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:44.009 There may be other infrastructure players like 00:21:44.009 --> 00:21:45.690 coming in the full down the road, but we needed 00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:49.329 to focus with one partner. And so that decision 00:21:49.329 --> 00:21:52.410 was made right, wrong, or indifferent. But the 00:21:52.410 --> 00:21:54.410 final thing I'll say before we move to your final 00:21:54.410 --> 00:21:58.210 topic is that what I really like about OpenRAN, 00:21:58.450 --> 00:22:01.109 it's just the whole notion of software defined. 00:22:01.490 --> 00:22:04.309 And it's not just ending up hardware. There's 00:22:04.309 --> 00:22:07.250 always a software component to deploy an infrastructure, 00:22:07.490 --> 00:22:10.630 but truly what like AT &T and Ericsson are doing. 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:13.579 is truly software -defined, and it's going to 00:22:13.579 --> 00:22:16.440 make that network programmable. And there's also 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.660 a focus on just the whole notion of exposing 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:22.819 API to bring additional vendors and to drive 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:26.259 innovation on top of the network. Because traditionally, 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:30.259 that's where the MNOs have not done a great job. 00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:32.700 They've done a great job spending billions of 00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:35.660 dollars on Spectrum, billions of dollars on Core 00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:39.769 and RAN, and then it's just access. And then 00:22:39.769 --> 00:22:42.890 the over -the -top players come in and they ride 00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:45.410 on that investment and they monetize what they're 00:22:45.410 --> 00:22:47.910 doing. So I do think there is a lot of promise 00:22:47.910 --> 00:22:50.769 with the whole notion of Open RAN and how software 00:22:50.769 --> 00:22:54.309 -defined it is and how there's a focus on API, 00:22:54.849 --> 00:22:57.630 closing APIs. And this is something that Ericsson's 00:22:57.630 --> 00:22:59.730 been talking about for quite some time, as well 00:22:59.730 --> 00:23:02.009 as Nokia with their autonomous networks and Samsung 00:23:02.009 --> 00:23:05.630 to a lesser extent. But with that, Samsung is 00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:07.329 a great segue to your third and final topic. 00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:10.960 You want to talk about the Fold 7 and Flip 7, 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:14.000 and apparently they're selling like hot cake. 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.299 Yes, I have my Fold 7 right here. You can tell 00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:21.519 it's actually a foldable. Case on it, but it's 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.819 the fittest foldable I have ever used. And truthfully, 00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:26.420 I will have my review pretty soon, but I already 00:23:26.420 --> 00:23:28.859 published my thoughts on the initial announcement. 00:23:29.019 --> 00:23:32.039 It's really just an incredible, fantastic phone, 00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:35.019 and so is the Flip 7. But what Samsung reported 00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:38.700 is pre -orders, which... They have pretty generous 00:23:38.700 --> 00:23:40.779 pre -orders. Pre -orders don't really change 00:23:40.779 --> 00:23:42.460 that much from generation to generation. They're 00:23:42.460 --> 00:23:45.339 all pretty much free memory upgrades and decent 00:23:45.339 --> 00:23:47.000 trade -ins. I would say the trade -ins this year 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:48.539 are not as generous as they have been in the 00:23:48.539 --> 00:23:51.640 past. And even so, they said that they saw a 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:54.759 25 % increase in total pre -orders across both 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:58.579 devices. And they said that their carrier partners 00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:02.539 saw a nearly 60 % increase in pre -orders for 00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:05.220 the Z Fold 7. The one that I was just holding. 00:24:05.299 --> 00:24:08.119 And truthfully, it is a generational upgrade 00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.519 from the Fold 6, the Fold 7. Any Fold that predates 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.799 it. It's just so much thinner. The camera is 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.039 so much better. Battery life is quite good. It's 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:18.619 not as good as it could be. It's still pretty 00:24:18.619 --> 00:24:21.640 good. They also said that the Fold 7 is outpacing 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.619 its previous model by nearly 50%. Availability 00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:29.099 opened on July 23rd. So it's not even been a 00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:32.019 week. And they're already just blowing past. 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.319 All of their sales numbers. And that's what they 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:37.839 were seeing in Korea as well. That the Fold 7 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.720 was, in some cases, outselling the Flip. That's 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.920 how big of a jump the Fold is. And I haven't 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.740 had a foldable for maybe six months now. And 00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:51.779 I miss it. And I love it. And I love having dual 00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:54.140 screen. And you can have up to three apps running 00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:57.160 side by side. I usually use two. But like my 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:00.460 number one use is just email and calendar. Side 00:25:00.460 --> 00:25:04.009 by side. It's so simple, but there's so many 00:25:04.009 --> 00:25:05.549 of them. They have a restaurant and then you 00:25:05.549 --> 00:25:08.150 open while you're ordering or look for restaurants, 00:25:08.450 --> 00:25:09.990 but also look at the menus at the same time. 00:25:10.589 --> 00:25:13.150 And then also my wife and daughter both like 00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:15.670 this a lot. I take pictures. They can see a preview 00:25:15.670 --> 00:25:18.690 of themselves on the screen before they chose 00:25:18.690 --> 00:25:22.349 pose themselves properly. And then there's the 00:25:22.349 --> 00:25:23.950 whole thing where you can set it down on a table 00:25:23.950 --> 00:25:26.089 and take a video and record things without having 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:28.930 to need a tripod. Those are not new features. 00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:32.210 What is new is this thing is absurdly thin. It's 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:35.109 as thin as my regular smartphones. Essentially, 00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:37.349 it's folded, and then unfolded, it's even thinner. 00:25:37.490 --> 00:25:39.890 You know, I've had people react. I was at a soccer 00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:42.309 game taking pictures with my foldable open, and 00:25:42.309 --> 00:25:44.690 the guy behind me was losing his mind. Right. 00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:47.569 I don't want my iPhone anymore. I want one of 00:25:47.569 --> 00:25:51.410 those. It's too grand. It's not cheap. You can 00:25:51.410 --> 00:25:53.710 trade your phone in. If you're on a three -year 00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:56.369 plan, it's probably not that expensive. But yeah, 00:25:56.410 --> 00:25:58.750 in general, things are going really well for 00:25:58.750 --> 00:26:00.920 Samsung with these new foldables. And that's 00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.779 just in time for Apple to potentially release 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:07.460 their new foldable next year. I read that. What's 00:26:07.460 --> 00:26:11.079 your take on that? Will I see it during the regular 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.460 sort of Apple kind of case? Yeah, so I think 00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:18.240 we'll see it next fall. And it'll probably be 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.039 very similar to the Fold 7 in terms of thickness 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.099 and form factor. Because the truth is, you know, 00:26:24.099 --> 00:26:26.339 both Apple and Samsung worries they're super 00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:28.940 thin. Well, Apple hasn't released a thin iPhone 00:26:28.940 --> 00:26:32.319 yet. They will. Both of these super thin phones 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.539 are just a technical engineering exercise in 00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:37.779 making super thin phones that you can then make 00:26:37.779 --> 00:26:40.839 a super thin foldable. And the truth is, like, 00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:43.000 some people have gone out and measured, and there's 00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.259 a lot of claims about thinness on this, and some 00:26:45.259 --> 00:26:46.779 people have gone out and actually measured the 00:26:46.779 --> 00:26:49.339 thickness, and the Samsung is the thinnest, and 00:26:49.339 --> 00:26:51.559 it's thickest. It's like, ignoring the camera 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:53.420 bump, which is a super thick part of the phone, 00:26:53.660 --> 00:26:57.180 at its thinnest, like, 8 .8 millimeters combined. 00:26:58.089 --> 00:27:00.190 When it's folded. So that's basically the same 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:02.549 thing that says like a regular phone. And yeah, 00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:05.150 I still have the S 25 ultra. I love that camera. 00:27:05.269 --> 00:27:07.910 The camera on the fold is not as good as S 25 00:27:07.910 --> 00:27:10.369 ultra. Like my biggest complaint is that the 00:27:10.369 --> 00:27:12.170 camera still has room for improvement, but I 00:27:12.170 --> 00:27:14.630 will say with the exception of zoom, most of 00:27:14.630 --> 00:27:16.369 the camera capabilities in the phone are quite 00:27:16.369 --> 00:27:19.210 good. I feel like I'm choked off not having. 00:27:20.890 --> 00:27:24.329 Yeah. People love thin, right. And it would make 00:27:24.329 --> 00:27:26.390 sense. I just speculated about Apple that I was. 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.960 They would do like an iPhone Air or whatever 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:30.920 they're going to call it first and then follow 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:34.240 that up with a foldable. I think you were posting 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:36.619 some insights. I think it was last week when 00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:39.660 I was traveling. I think I replied to one of 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:41.759 your posts and I said, Apple, take my money because 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.539 I've been waiting for an Apple foldable. I had 00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:47.700 an Android for a while, and I love it. I've got 00:27:47.700 --> 00:27:50.359 lots of Samsung hardware, and I test it and all 00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:52.920 that, but I'm an Apple ecosystem guy. I'll be 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.019 waiting, you know, with my wallet in hand when 00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:58.160 that drops and probably get my order in. But 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:00.680 hey, buddy, it's been another great podcast this 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:02.519 week. Why don't we take it home? We hope our 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.220 viewers and listeners found this week's talk 00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.480 interesting. If anyone out there would like to 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.200 provide insights on a specific 5G or 6G topic 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.819 for a future podcast, please reach out to us 00:28:11.819 --> 00:28:14.140 on social media. Well, is that well done? And 00:28:14.140 --> 00:28:16.140 I'm on I don't feel sorry I was trying to point 00:28:16.140 --> 00:28:18.119 to you and I failed. And we hope you have a great 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:19.819 weekend and please tune in again next week and 00:28:19.819 --> 00:28:21.059 don't forget to rate us and subscribe.