WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.059 And we are live. Welcome to episode 225 of the 00:00:04.059 --> 00:00:07.419 G2 on 5G. It's the latest Insight Scoop on everything 00:00:07.419 --> 00:00:10.359 5G. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes, 00:00:10.400 --> 00:00:11.779 and it's brought to you by More Insights and 00:00:11.779 --> 00:00:14.119 Strategy. I'm Will Townsend, and joining me again 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:16.839 this week is fellow analyst Anshul Sai. Before 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:19.140 we get started, we've got a pretty big milestone 00:00:19.140 --> 00:00:21.440 coming up, don't we, my friend? Yeah, we are 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:25.140 about to hit our five -year anniversary of starting 00:00:25.140 --> 00:00:28.100 this podcast. We originally wanted to start it 00:00:28.379 --> 00:00:31.539 in February of 2020, and then I caught COVID. 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.560 So we pushed it back and we started, I think, 00:00:34.579 --> 00:00:38.100 May 30th of 2020. So we've been doing this for 00:00:38.100 --> 00:00:41.200 almost five years. We're about to hit five years 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.359 a week from today. We're hoping to keep on doing 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:47.159 this for another five years until 5G is done 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:50.359 and dusted and we've moved on to 5G. Yeah, five 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.179 years for 5G. Man, it's been a lot of fun doing 00:00:53.179 --> 00:00:55.000 these with you, buddy. And it's hard to believe 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:56.939 it's five years. And I've been at the firm. I 00:00:56.939 --> 00:00:58.560 know you just passed your 10th year anniversary. 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:01.840 I'm on nine, going on 10. It's my longest gig, 00:01:01.899 --> 00:01:04.599 I think, ever, even compared to what I did in 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:06.620 corporate America. And it's a lot of fun. I think 00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:08.980 you and I are blessed to do what we love. And 00:01:08.980 --> 00:01:11.599 without further ado, let's jump into it. So I 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.219 want to talk about my first topic. And I had 00:01:14.219 --> 00:01:16.219 received this news when I was over in Paris, 00:01:16.340 --> 00:01:19.319 so it was a little time delayed. Big news with 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:23.579 AT &T doubling down on fiber with its Lumen acquisition. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.359 And I'm sure you're going to have some things 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.719 to share about this, but this is pretty massive. 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:31.680 So basically AT &T is acquiring the fiber portion 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.760 of Lumen's mass markets business unit for nearly 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:38.140 $6 billion. And you and I have talked on numerous 00:01:38.140 --> 00:01:41.939 podcasts about AT &T investing in fiber. You 00:01:41.939 --> 00:01:44.280 use their service. I've used their service in 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:48.590 the past. Fiber is foundational. It provides 00:01:48.590 --> 00:01:51.209 the best experience when it comes to broadband 00:01:51.209 --> 00:01:55.129 support, backhaul that's needed for mobile services. 00:01:55.450 --> 00:01:58.709 And this just really cements what AT &T is doing 00:01:58.709 --> 00:02:01.409 from a fiber investment. The company's had very 00:02:01.409 --> 00:02:04.890 bold plans, a goal to reach 60 million locations 00:02:04.890 --> 00:02:08.250 by 2030. And certainly this, from my perspective, 00:02:08.389 --> 00:02:12.169 helps in that regard. And what more can we say 00:02:12.169 --> 00:02:14.349 about this? This is big news. What do you think 00:02:14.349 --> 00:02:18.050 about all this? Yeah, I was a bit surprised to 00:02:18.050 --> 00:02:20.870 hear this news, but it makes tons of sense. AT 00:02:20.870 --> 00:02:23.889 &T is expanding their fiber business. This gives 00:02:23.889 --> 00:02:27.110 them even more customers, predominantly on the 00:02:27.110 --> 00:02:30.310 West Coast. And I think I was a bit surprised 00:02:30.310 --> 00:02:33.110 because I didn't think Lumen was trying to divest 00:02:33.110 --> 00:02:35.750 from their consumer business. They do still get 00:02:35.750 --> 00:02:39.030 to keep their copper wireline business for customers 00:02:39.030 --> 00:02:42.639 that don't have fiber. I think it's a great thing 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:44.599 because I think AT &T Fiber is a great service. 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:48.159 I continue to use it. And if I move, there's 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:50.340 now a much higher probability that I'll still 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:53.680 have AT &T Fiber. Yeah, it certainly looks like 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.659 that. And the consumer footprint is massive that 00:02:56.659 --> 00:02:59.960 comes along with this acquisition. I believe 00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:02.780 like over 4 million locations. Yeah, I mean, 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:05.750 it's certainly... From my perspective, it's a 00:03:05.750 --> 00:03:08.210 consolidation play. This is also, I wasn't aware 00:03:08.210 --> 00:03:10.030 of the geographic location. You're indicating 00:03:10.030 --> 00:03:13.110 that it's West Coast, but this certainly helps 00:03:13.110 --> 00:03:18.050 with what AT &T is doing to focus on converged 00:03:18.050 --> 00:03:21.050 connectivity services. Converged being obviously 00:03:21.050 --> 00:03:25.169 fixed and wireless broadband to the home with 00:03:25.169 --> 00:03:28.400 its internet 5G air service. as well as mobility 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:30.840 as well. And we've talked about that. I wrote 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.479 a Forbes article after speaking with Jen Robertson 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:36.719 that leads mass markets. This is a huge business 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.419 for AT &T. I'm not surprised. Before this deal, 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:43.539 about $90 billion of top -line revenue comes 00:03:43.539 --> 00:03:46.240 out of the mass markets consumer business for 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.099 AT &T. So this will continue to add to that. 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.400 And it'll be really interesting to see how creative 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:55.750 this is over time. In other words, Not being 00:03:55.750 --> 00:03:58.430 just a share sort of consolidation for AT &T, 00:03:58.469 --> 00:04:00.849 but something that the company can meaningfully 00:04:00.849 --> 00:04:04.770 grow, having these additional locations. Congratulations 00:04:04.770 --> 00:04:08.050 to AT &T. It's a huge announcement. And I'll 00:04:08.050 --> 00:04:09.930 be sharing some insights on social media. I'm 00:04:09.930 --> 00:04:11.650 a little behind just getting back from Paris 00:04:11.650 --> 00:04:14.909 after a delay last night. But with that, let's 00:04:14.909 --> 00:04:16.910 go to your first topic. And I don't think you'll 00:04:16.910 --> 00:04:19.370 get too political on this, but you want to talk 00:04:19.370 --> 00:04:22.269 about President Trump wanting to auction 600 00:04:22.269 --> 00:04:26.040 megahertz spectrum. or 5G and eventually 6G deployment. 00:04:26.180 --> 00:04:29.459 Yes. Our dear leader, President Trump, whom I... 00:04:29.459 --> 00:04:33.000 You say that so affectionately. ...whom I have 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:36.600 opinions about, tweeted out that the big, beautiful 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.360 bill... I'm just going to do this verbatim and 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.519 use the quote. We must maintain our status as 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.180 the worldwide leader in Wi -Fi, 5G, and 6G, connecting 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:47.379 every American to the world's best networks, 00:04:47.540 --> 00:04:50.699 while also keeping everyone safe. We can do both 00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:53.240 at the same time. Bottom line, I'm going to free 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:55.819 up plenty of spectrum for auction. So Congress 00:04:55.819 --> 00:04:59.189 must put 600 megahertz in the big. In the one 00:04:59.189 --> 00:05:01.610 big beautiful bill, let's make sure all options 00:05:01.610 --> 00:05:03.670 are on the table. Never bet against American 00:05:03.670 --> 00:05:06.110 ingenuity. Make America great again. Okay. The 00:05:06.110 --> 00:05:08.810 problem with that is 600 megahertz. There are 00:05:08.810 --> 00:05:11.610 no contiguous 600 megahertz bands. So this is 00:05:11.610 --> 00:05:15.189 really a call to auction whatever potential frequencies 00:05:15.189 --> 00:05:19.269 might be available in the 1 .5 to 10 gigahertz 00:05:19.269 --> 00:05:22.110 band. So this is really also what they've been 00:05:22.110 --> 00:05:23.649 talking about in the lower three gigahertz band 00:05:23.649 --> 00:05:27.569 as well. There were no actual details because 00:05:27.569 --> 00:05:31.329 the actual legislation says 600 megahertz in 00:05:31.329 --> 00:05:33.790 the 1 .3 to 10 gigahertz band. So clearly it's 00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:36.449 not a millimeter wave call. It's very much about 00:05:36.449 --> 00:05:39.569 mid band, low band, and even mid to high band. 00:05:39.730 --> 00:05:43.189 But the reality is this is very like surface 00:05:43.189 --> 00:05:46.910 level, but it does show that there are lobbyists. 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.740 who have been in the Trump administration's ear 00:05:49.740 --> 00:05:54.579 on freeing up more spectrum for 5g and 6g and 00:05:54.579 --> 00:05:57.120 potentially wifi. And while I did not have this 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.839 as a topic, I saw a LinkedIn post from some of 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:02.000 the people I follow at Intel where they have. 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:06.839 started to test some Wi -Fi spectrum in the 7 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:09.319 gigahertz band, low 7 gigahertz band, and they 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:11.220 were doing this with Broadcom. It's really interesting 00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:13.439 to see these spectrum discussions occurring, 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:16.959 but I think it's fairly low stakes at this point. 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:20.040 And if anything, I hope that any spectrum auctions 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:23.220 that do occur will occur in a better fashion 00:06:23.220 --> 00:06:25.420 than the last one under the Trump administration. 00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:29.769 I'll also just add that I think there's... some 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:32.829 appetite to generate revenue like they did with 00:06:32.829 --> 00:06:34.829 the last auction. And I think they're more focused 00:06:34.829 --> 00:06:37.870 on the fact that there is an opportunity to monetize 00:06:37.870 --> 00:06:41.029 government spectrum and to force people off of 00:06:41.029 --> 00:06:43.709 it as the government. And I think that they're 00:06:43.709 --> 00:06:47.290 once again attracted to this idea. I agree with 00:06:47.290 --> 00:06:49.230 you. There's a huge monetization opportunity 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:52.730 here. There is benefit. And from my perspective, 00:06:53.050 --> 00:06:54.829 the FC, and I'm going to talk about Spectrum 00:06:54.829 --> 00:06:56.879 here in a minute as well. in a different vein, 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.819 but there needs to be a better process just for 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:02.519 the allocation spectrum in general. And it just 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.899 seems like we need to be, it just seems to be 00:07:05.899 --> 00:07:09.560 that the FCC is not proactive in managing this. 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:11.459 And then all of a sudden our elected officials 00:07:11.459 --> 00:07:14.220 look at something and say, oh, here's an opportunity 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:16.519 to put more money in the treasury coffers. Yeah. 00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:19.819 I mean, from my perspective, it'll be interesting 00:07:19.819 --> 00:07:22.079 to see how this winds out, but that's a great 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:25.089 segue to my second topic. And I want to talk 00:07:25.089 --> 00:07:28.490 about the upper 12 gigahertz spectrum band. And 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:31.750 can low Earth orbit satellite connectivity get 00:07:31.750 --> 00:07:34.670 a boost with it? CAR, the current chairperson, 00:07:34.949 --> 00:07:38.509 has been speaking to the opportunity to free 00:07:38.509 --> 00:07:41.910 this up, to facilitate service providers like 00:07:41.910 --> 00:07:44.850 AST Space Mobile and Starlink. And the challenge 00:07:44.850 --> 00:07:47.370 is that these companies are having to work with 00:07:47.370 --> 00:07:49.610 mobile network operators and the terrestrial 00:07:49.610 --> 00:07:52.250 spectrum holdings that are already in place to 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:56.350 enable this. Now there's discussion around, hey, 00:07:56.470 --> 00:07:59.670 looking at this upper 12 gigahertz spectrum profile 00:07:59.670 --> 00:08:03.730 and allocating that to all of these low Earth 00:08:03.730 --> 00:08:06.389 orbit satellite companies that are getting into 00:08:06.389 --> 00:08:08.970 the game. Amazon is getting into the game. OneWeb, 00:08:08.970 --> 00:08:10.810 I think they're still after it to some extent. 00:08:10.930 --> 00:08:13.250 But what do you think about all this? Is this 00:08:13.250 --> 00:08:15.870 sort of a kind of a non -news thing, your first 00:08:15.870 --> 00:08:18.769 topic? Or can this really move the needle and 00:08:18.769 --> 00:08:22.259 maybe accelerate? services from AST Space Mobile 00:08:22.259 --> 00:08:25.500 and Starlink and everyone else? I think there's 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:29.120 potential. I think it's important that if this 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:34.220 band is made available, that it's fairly accessible 00:08:34.220 --> 00:08:38.220 and that the auction is not heavily weighted 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:41.340 towards one player or another. So I think fair 00:08:41.340 --> 00:08:43.779 rules would be important to enable startups to 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:46.299 be successful because I hate to admit it, but 00:08:46.299 --> 00:08:48.960 I just think that Starlink and SpaceX are going 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.360 to get favorable. treatment every time. And I'm 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:55.600 just not about that. Yeah. And we've talked about 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.840 this in the past too. Starlink has been very 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:00.100 aggressive in trying to lobby the federal government 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:04.200 with respect to DISH and Echo Star sitting on 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:06.720 spectrum. And that's a topic that you and I have 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:08.679 probably discussed a dozen times on this podcast. 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:12.399 And so it will be interesting given Elon's current 00:09:12.399 --> 00:09:15.730 participation or maybe that's ended now. with 00:09:15.730 --> 00:09:18.669 the Trump administration. But if this does happen, 00:09:18.750 --> 00:09:21.110 it's going to have to be fairly divvied up from 00:09:21.110 --> 00:09:22.909 my perspective. But it will be interesting to 00:09:22.909 --> 00:09:25.429 see how this all winds out. But hey, let's go 00:09:25.429 --> 00:09:27.230 to your second topic. You want to talk about 00:09:27.230 --> 00:09:32.029 Apple. I love what you do. You like to read between 00:09:32.029 --> 00:09:34.450 the lines and do the research, but you've done 00:09:34.450 --> 00:09:38.029 some research and you believe that Apple may 00:09:38.029 --> 00:09:42.889 be preparing its focus on 6G. Yeah, I actually 00:09:42.889 --> 00:09:45.299 believe that. They probably already have people 00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:47.840 working on 6G. I think they're trying to hire 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:51.519 more people. Whether those people are already 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:54.259 experienced in the realm, it seems like that's 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:55.879 their focus. They want people who are already 00:09:55.879 --> 00:10:00.000 developing 6G. And I think they want to be a 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:02.779 bigger player in 6G than they were in 5G. Especially 00:10:02.779 --> 00:10:04.759 now that they have a 5G modem, they're going 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:07.559 to need a 6G modem as well. And I think that 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.179 they're going to need to build an IP portfolio. 00:10:10.700 --> 00:10:13.269 I also think they're going to need to... have 00:10:13.269 --> 00:10:16.570 a patent portfolio so that they can actually 00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:20.450 negotiate royalty rates with someone like a qualcomm 00:10:20.450 --> 00:10:22.830 to get better rates so that they don't have to 00:10:22.830 --> 00:10:24.450 pay as much even though they're using their own 00:10:24.450 --> 00:10:26.570 modem i think there's a lot of factors in this 00:10:26.570 --> 00:10:28.870 i think they also need to be prepared for 6g 00:10:28.870 --> 00:10:31.210 when it comes yeah i don't think they want to 00:10:31.210 --> 00:10:34.309 be as late to 5g as they were you know they're 00:10:34.309 --> 00:10:38.870 about five years late so i think they're we're 00:10:38.870 --> 00:10:42.570 really in a place where 6g They should already 00:10:42.570 --> 00:10:45.330 have had people involved. As far as I understand, 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:47.289 they haven't really been that involved in the 00:10:47.289 --> 00:10:49.830 standard setting. I think that they are already 00:10:49.830 --> 00:10:52.610 late to a certain degree, but that has never 00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:54.889 really stopped Apple. But I do believe that they 00:10:54.889 --> 00:10:58.590 should be doing more active involvement in setting 00:10:58.590 --> 00:11:02.190 the standards and creating new IP, enabling new 00:11:02.190 --> 00:11:05.090 features, and hopefully they'll be a driver of 00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:07.710 things like XR. into the standard even though 00:11:07.710 --> 00:11:10.889 3gpp release 18 which is known as 5g advanced 00:11:10.889 --> 00:11:13.509 already has a lot of them i think apple as a 00:11:13.509 --> 00:11:16.769 smartphone manufacturer and modem creator should 00:11:16.769 --> 00:11:18.909 have a lot more influence in the 5g standard 00:11:18.909 --> 00:11:21.690 than they currently do today i agree and like 00:11:21.690 --> 00:11:24.149 you mentioned five years to 5g there there are 00:11:24.149 --> 00:11:26.110 a lot of challenges within that journey they 00:11:26.110 --> 00:11:29.529 probably learned a lot But there are examples 00:11:29.529 --> 00:11:32.649 of even like Qualcomm getting in front of, too 00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:35.269 far in front of lower orbit satellite connectivity, 00:11:35.549 --> 00:11:39.690 right? Before the standards were baked and they 00:11:39.690 --> 00:11:41.669 eventually had to abandon that, right? Yeah, 00:11:41.750 --> 00:11:44.450 it'll be interesting to see how this materializes. 00:11:44.470 --> 00:11:47.110 Obviously, Apple is a huge player when you just 00:11:47.110 --> 00:11:49.370 look at their very dominant market share and 00:11:49.370 --> 00:11:51.769 in smartphones, but that's not going to get the 00:11:51.769 --> 00:11:54.330 job done at the end of the day. So I totally 00:11:54.330 --> 00:11:55.669 agree with you. They're going to have to be. 00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:59.820 become more participant in helping steer the 00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:03.379 3GPP standards here for 6G. But hey, let's hit 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:05.500 my third and final topic. We're being very efficient 00:12:05.500 --> 00:12:08.279 today. I want to talk about AWS. And in 2021, 00:12:08.580 --> 00:12:11.379 they launched a private 5G solution. Just this 00:12:11.379 --> 00:12:15.200 week. AWS has announced that it is ending its 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:19.480 efforts in that regard. And I had several journalists 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:21.600 reach out to me. And fortunately, it was when 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:24.379 I was flying back to Paris. So you may not see 00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:26.299 any of my insights in any of those articles that 00:12:26.299 --> 00:12:29.480 are being written. But I'm not surprised to see 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:34.019 this because it was very competitive with what 00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:36.639 the carriers like T -Mobile and AT &T are trying 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:41.350 to do, number one. Number two, it wasn't complete 00:12:41.350 --> 00:12:44.629 and it was very complex when compared to offerings 00:12:44.629 --> 00:12:49.269 from, say, NTT in Salona as well. So from my 00:12:49.269 --> 00:12:50.889 standpoint, there were just too many hurdles, 00:12:51.009 --> 00:12:54.590 too much complexity to already navigate what's 00:12:54.590 --> 00:12:57.990 already a very complex endeavor with private 00:12:57.990 --> 00:13:01.049 cellular. But any additional thoughts from your 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:05.590 perspective on where maybe AWS failed to deliver? 00:13:07.149 --> 00:13:10.850 I'm not totally surprised. I never really heard 00:13:10.850 --> 00:13:14.009 that much traction for this solution. I think 00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:15.929 this was more of a solution looking for a problem. 00:13:16.029 --> 00:13:20.950 I agree. And I think that there might be some 00:13:20.950 --> 00:13:23.190 opportunities down the road, but I'm not sure 00:13:23.190 --> 00:13:25.230 that it would be enough to stand up an entire 00:13:25.230 --> 00:13:28.720 business within AWS. And more likely, it's better 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.580 served by startups and utilizing AWS infrastructure 00:13:31.580 --> 00:13:33.720 potentially, because I think that's what this 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:36.019 play was. And I think it was just a little bit, 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:38.120 to your point, too complicated for people to 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:41.919 deploy as is. But I think they'll be back probably 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.139 with something else and potentially partnered 00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:47.259 with a startup in the space. Yeah, telco is difficult, 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:50.879 man. It is typically a low margin business. And 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.799 that's evidenced by... sort of the hits or misses 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:56.340 and really the longer tail adoption with private 00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:59.320 cellular in general and yeah when you look at 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.139 microsoft azure and the fact that they've pretty 00:14:02.139 --> 00:14:04.960 much and they weren't necessarily focusing on 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.580 private 5g services but they had a whole telecom 00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:12.139 group that's basically been disbanded. And so 00:14:12.139 --> 00:14:13.940 I think the hyperscalers have figured out, and 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:16.259 there's all this promise around telco cloud as 00:14:16.259 --> 00:14:19.000 well. But at the end of the day, you've had the 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.740 incumbents in the space, the infrastructure incumbents 00:14:21.740 --> 00:14:24.879 in the space from the likes of Ericsson and Nokia 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:27.559 and Huawei that are doing telco clouds. From 00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:30.700 my perspective, hey, I understand the rationale 00:14:30.700 --> 00:14:33.480 for the hyperscalers to want to participate in 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:35.419 this, but at the end of the day, it was probably 00:14:35.419 --> 00:14:37.860 just not a great fit for them. So interesting 00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.639 stuff. Let's hit your third and final topic. 00:14:40.700 --> 00:14:43.399 You want to talk about Xiaomi and they've launched 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:47.980 a, I believe an SOC with ARM, right? Yeah. So 00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:50.419 we were talking about this, I think last week. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.100 Yeah. And it was my third and final topic that 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:55.980 week too. So this is Xiaomi's new X -Ring 01. 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.639 It's interesting because the rumors were that 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:01.980 this was going to be more of a mainstream SOC, 00:15:02.059 --> 00:15:08.720 but it will utilize ARM's... ARM V9 Cortex CPUs 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:11.779 and their Immortalis GPUs. What's interesting 00:15:11.779 --> 00:15:14.620 is that ARM posted a blog about this on their 00:15:14.620 --> 00:15:17.860 own website. And so they've been promoting it 00:15:17.860 --> 00:15:21.179 quite a bit as well. And yeah, it's really interesting 00:15:21.179 --> 00:15:25.419 because it's going to be debuted in Xiaomi's 00:15:25.419 --> 00:15:30.220 S15S Pro smartphones and their Pad 7 Ultra. So 00:15:30.220 --> 00:15:32.820 this is not necessarily their flagship phones 00:15:32.820 --> 00:15:35.230 and tablets, but it's more of a... upper middle 00:15:35.230 --> 00:15:37.429 tier and it's yeah it's really interesting because 00:15:37.429 --> 00:15:40.370 get different perspectives of how this competes 00:15:40.370 --> 00:15:44.370 with the rest of the market but truthfully i 00:15:44.370 --> 00:15:48.210 think this is a more of a play to potentially 00:15:48.210 --> 00:15:51.250 satisfy the chinese government with homegrown 00:15:51.250 --> 00:15:55.870 silicon it has a 10 core cpu with two of arm's 00:15:55.870 --> 00:15:59.230 latest x925 cores and then and then a bunch of 00:15:59.230 --> 00:16:02.299 other low power lower power cores and then it 00:16:02.299 --> 00:16:05.980 has a 16 core immortalis g925 so it's not using 00:16:05.980 --> 00:16:08.519 custom cpu cores it's using off -the -shelf cores 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.720 from arm which are competitive but they're not 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.700 top tier like apple and qualcomm's but yet so 00:16:15.700 --> 00:16:18.299 it's really interesting to see that this is happening 00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:21.460 at the same time that this happened xiaomi also 00:16:21.460 --> 00:16:25.059 announced a long -term agreement with qualcomm 00:16:25.059 --> 00:16:28.720 to continue to buy their chips for their flagship 00:16:29.289 --> 00:16:32.450 phones and for their cars it's really interesting 00:16:32.450 --> 00:16:35.129 the timing of these announcements and to see 00:16:35.129 --> 00:16:39.029 how these companies are jockeying for position 00:16:39.029 --> 00:16:42.909 in silicon space but i think that really what 00:16:42.909 --> 00:16:46.750 this is more of a an agreement to for xiaomi 00:16:46.750 --> 00:16:48.389 to build their own chips to keep the chinese 00:16:48.389 --> 00:16:50.909 government happy but also to work with qualcomm 00:16:50.909 --> 00:16:53.090 to get the latest fastest most advanced chips 00:16:53.090 --> 00:16:55.549 for the products because they've been working 00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:59.179 together for 15 years and This announcement was 00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:02.580 another extension of that partnership. They didn't 00:17:02.580 --> 00:17:05.140 really say how many years. It says multi -year 00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:07.799 agreement, but generally these tend to be three 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.799 to five year agreements. And I think we will 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.359 probably see Xiaomi continue to ship Qualcomm 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.599 at the high end. And if anything, this might 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.059 be more of a threat to media tech than Qualcomm 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:21.519 specifically in terms of the high end. Although 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:23.980 I will say Xiaomi does use both in their phones, 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:28.250 but I do think that Xiaomi. wants to keep the 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:30.690 Chinese government happy, but also still get 00:17:30.690 --> 00:17:33.150 the best chips. Yeah, they're a very prominent 00:17:33.150 --> 00:17:36.009 Chinese brand. And so I think it checks the box 00:17:36.009 --> 00:17:38.589 on Chinese domestic supply chain, number one. 00:17:38.730 --> 00:17:40.990 It also gives them some supply chain diversity, 00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:44.190 I would think. And then the third thought I have 00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:47.809 is that it could be a margin enhancement opportunity. 00:17:47.930 --> 00:17:50.750 As you mentioned, it's in the mid -tier, right? 00:17:50.869 --> 00:17:53.490 It's not the low end, but it's in the mid -tier. 00:17:54.430 --> 00:17:56.210 that it might be a margin enhancement opportunity 00:17:56.210 --> 00:17:58.769 for them as well. Yeah, I mean, I think it's 00:17:58.769 --> 00:18:01.990 always good to be supply chain diversified, even 00:18:01.990 --> 00:18:04.210 at the silicon level. Yeah, and I'll just add 00:18:04.210 --> 00:18:08.910 one thing. It's being fabbed at TSMC on the N3E 00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:11.990 node, which is actually a current node, which 00:18:11.990 --> 00:18:15.329 is the same as MediaTek's 9400. So it would actually 00:18:15.329 --> 00:18:17.609 be pretty close to performance to the MediaTek 00:18:17.609 --> 00:18:21.529 Dimensity 9400. But oddly enough, I don't know 00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:24.869 that Xiaomi... is on the banned entity list. 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:28.869 So they can produce these at TSMC for the foreseeable 00:18:28.869 --> 00:18:31.990 future until someone decides that they are dangerous 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:35.670 enough to be banned from using TSMC and other 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.029 fab entities. So I don't know how they managed 00:18:39.029 --> 00:18:41.569 to get this done, but it might be that this is 00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:44.269 low enough volume that it's not a concern. And 00:18:44.269 --> 00:18:46.910 they're also a consumer brand, right? And so 00:18:46.910 --> 00:18:50.549 you don't... They don't do anything from an enterprise 00:18:50.549 --> 00:18:53.150 infrastructure perspective like ZTE and Huawei 00:18:53.150 --> 00:18:56.670 do, right? Correct. So I think because it's consumer, 00:18:56.769 --> 00:18:59.369 it's low risk. I own a couple of their scooters. 00:18:59.930 --> 00:19:02.349 Because they bought Ninebot, which then bought 00:19:02.349 --> 00:19:05.490 Segway. Yeah, yeah, that I keep at my condo in 00:19:05.490 --> 00:19:08.150 Isla Morada. But I think it's probably because 00:19:08.150 --> 00:19:11.049 they're a consumer kids company primarily, if 00:19:11.049 --> 00:19:14.670 not entirely, and it's low risk. But yeah, interesting 00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:16.509 stuff. Hey, my friend, we got through that pretty 00:19:16.509 --> 00:19:18.750 quickly. Given it's a three -day weekend upon 00:19:18.750 --> 00:19:21.549 us, why don't you take us home? Absolutely. We 00:19:21.549 --> 00:19:23.230 hope our viewers and listeners found this week's 00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:25.170 topics interesting. If anyone out there would 00:19:25.170 --> 00:19:27.009 like to provide insights for a specific 5G topic 00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:29.269 for a future podcast, please reach out to us 00:19:29.269 --> 00:19:31.849 on social media. Will is at WillTown Tech, and 00:19:31.849 --> 00:19:34.630 I'm at Entre Saug. We hope you have a great holiday 00:19:34.630 --> 00:19:36.710 weekend, and please tune in again next week, 00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:39.349 and don't forget to rate us and subscribe. And 00:19:39.349 --> 00:19:42.069 we wish all the best to all the veterans that 00:19:42.069 --> 00:19:44.250 have fought in all of these wars over the years. 00:19:44.349 --> 00:19:46.289 So happy Memorial Day. Thanks.