WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.580 Welcome to episode 224 of the G2 on 5g. It's 00:00:03.580 --> 00:00:06.179 the latest insight scoop on everything 5g and 00:00:06.179 --> 00:00:09.039 more. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:10.480 and it's brought to you by more insights and 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.740 strategy. I'm Will Townsend and joining me again 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:15.740 this week is fellow analyst Anshul Saag. We've 00:00:15.740 --> 00:00:17.300 been a little dark for the last couple of weeks, 00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:19.079 but Anshul and I have both been traveling quite 00:00:19.079 --> 00:00:22.559 a bit. This is the 5g bat phone in the Moxie 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:27.250 lower east hotel in Manhattan. And so that's 00:00:27.250 --> 00:00:29.109 where I'll be recording our podcast today. But 00:00:29.109 --> 00:00:31.949 I want to start with my first topic, AST Space 00:00:31.949 --> 00:00:34.929 Mobile announcing a new consumer satellite service. 00:00:35.149 --> 00:00:36.570 And so, Anshul, I don't know if you caught this, 00:00:36.729 --> 00:00:39.990 but it was on the company's recent earnings call 00:00:39.990 --> 00:00:44.070 where AST CEO Abel Avilian, one of my good friends, 00:00:44.229 --> 00:00:47.289 talked about having a beta service available 00:00:47.289 --> 00:00:50.210 sometime by the end of this year, then a commercial 00:00:50.210 --> 00:00:54.960 service available in 2026. And this would include, 00:00:55.140 --> 00:00:59.320 according to Abel, potentially text, internet 00:00:59.320 --> 00:01:03.119 data, and access to applications like video conferencing. 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:06.480 So this is really interesting because when I 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:08.739 first weighed in on all of this a couple of years 00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:11.739 ago, what I was really impressed with was that 00:01:11.739 --> 00:01:14.000 AST Space Mobile was taking more of a middleware 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:17.480 approach, right? And enabling solutions and not 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:21.439 competing. And I contrasted. that with Starlink 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:24.099 because they obviously have a satellite service. 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:27.640 But now it seems AST Space Mobile's strategy 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:30.159 is changing a little bit. I can't find fault 00:01:30.159 --> 00:01:33.159 with that because it's just a tremendous opportunity 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:37.000 for the company to monetize a service. But what 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.760 do you think? I'm assuming you caught this news. 00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:43.060 I actually didn't. I've been buried. I've been 00:01:43.060 --> 00:01:46.260 quite buried across many things. So I actually 00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:49.659 did miss this. What I do think that's interesting 00:01:49.659 --> 00:01:52.579 is that you're right. It does sound like they're 00:01:52.579 --> 00:01:56.519 trying to become a bit more horizontal. And the 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.379 truth is, I think they started horizontal. Now 00:01:59.379 --> 00:02:01.219 they're trying to move more vertical. But I think 00:02:01.219 --> 00:02:03.519 what's interesting is this might be a function 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.540 of the agreements that they've put in place with 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:08.919 all of the different carriers. Because the thing 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:12.240 is that while AST does have the satellites and 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.020 the ground stations, they still have to also 00:02:15.020 --> 00:02:18.270 have the spectrum. And I think maybe their agreements 00:02:18.270 --> 00:02:21.569 with all of these carriers enables them to potentially 00:02:21.569 --> 00:02:25.449 utilize these carriers spectrum around the world, 00:02:25.590 --> 00:02:27.650 which would then potentially give them the opportunity 00:02:27.650 --> 00:02:31.330 to use that spectrum for their own customers 00:02:31.330 --> 00:02:35.050 and give those customers global coverage. Obviously 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:37.110 there would have to be, there's probably still 00:02:37.110 --> 00:02:40.449 have to pay for that bandwidth, but I think it's 00:02:40.449 --> 00:02:43.319 just. an opportunity for them to better utilize 00:02:43.319 --> 00:02:45.919 the network they've already implemented make 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:47.879 the most of their satellite network because the 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:50.580 truth is if you look at the economics of a lot 00:02:50.580 --> 00:02:53.080 of these satellite networks that predate all 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.139 these leo constellations that the number one 00:02:56.139 --> 00:02:59.300 driver of profit for these networks is utilization 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:02.300 if they can get utilization as high as possible 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:05.500 without affecting the user experience i think 00:03:05.500 --> 00:03:08.439 that's a real good thing for their long -term 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:10.960 viability as a satellite company because we've 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:12.919 seen a lot of satellite companies come and go 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.740 a few of them have gone bankrupt multiple times 00:03:15.740 --> 00:03:19.400 i think that's really an important thing to consider 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.020 when it comes to ast is long -term viability 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:26.360 and and being that bridge between different parts 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.419 of the world parts of the world or world however 00:03:29.419 --> 00:03:32.919 you want to say yeah yeah and hey a at t and 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.439 vodafone have both made a financial investment 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.379 in the company right You could think that, hey, 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:41.060 those carriers are not going to get in necessarily 00:03:41.060 --> 00:03:45.740 to providing a discrete satellite -based broadband 00:03:45.740 --> 00:03:48.539 service. But they will benefit with AST Space 00:03:48.539 --> 00:03:50.680 Mobile doing that on their own because they've 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:52.560 made financial investments in the company. So 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.699 the strategy has changed a little bit. Last year, 00:03:54.699 --> 00:03:57.240 the investments occurred by those two big MNOs, 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:00.560 including Google. So, yeah, I agree. They're 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:03.740 going to have to monetize the investment that 00:04:03.740 --> 00:04:07.000 they're making. putting more and more satellites 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.860 in the air. So it makes perfect sense to me. 00:04:08.979 --> 00:04:11.199 But hey, let's go to your first topic. And you 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:12.680 want to talk about Echo Star. I wasn't aware 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.139 of this, but they're potentially being investigated 00:04:15.139 --> 00:04:19.180 by the FCC. Yeah, so this is an interesting development 00:04:19.180 --> 00:04:22.240 because this actually started a few weeks ago. 00:04:22.579 --> 00:04:26.480 And then it became clear that SpaceX's complaints 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:30.120 around Echo Star were very similar to what the 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.160 FCC. was investigating them about specifically 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:36.879 about their ability to deliver 5g services across 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:39.319 the us and whether they're using all their spectrum 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:42.899 licenses so this is really about echo star and 00:04:42.899 --> 00:04:45.480 its boost mobile 5g network which i actually 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.399 recently got a tablet from boost to test out 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:50.620 their network so i'm excited to try that out 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:51.920 because it's been a while since they've launched 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:54.639 and i haven't had a chance to try it but really 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:58.800 what it is it's they're trying to say that Boost 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:03.040 isn't making their terms correct. And what's 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:05.680 really interesting is that there's a lot of political 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:09.660 back and forth because Erdogan is trying to get 00:05:09.660 --> 00:05:13.920 the Trump administration to give them more wiggle 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.980 room like they did with Biden. And the FCC chair 00:05:16.980 --> 00:05:21.149 Carr... has an investigation into Echosar specifically 00:05:21.149 --> 00:05:24.810 regarding their their spectrum and the availability 00:05:24.810 --> 00:05:29.910 to utilize a two gigahertz band. So it's interesting 00:05:29.910 --> 00:05:32.449 as SpaceX wants to use this two gigahertz band. 00:05:32.689 --> 00:05:34.790 Some people are wondering whether or not it has 00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:38.069 to do with Trump's involvement with Elon and 00:05:38.069 --> 00:05:41.610 whether or not SpaceX is part of this. It's really 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:44.680 unfortunate. And I really hope that. echo star 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.699 and boost do actually have a successful network 00:05:47.699 --> 00:05:50.879 for for a lot of reasons but also they do have 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:53.920 a reputation for being a spectrum squad charlie's 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.680 got the biggest reputation doing that so i don't 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:58.600 care if we're talking about dish or echo star 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:03.180 it's the same thing it is but yeah it really 00:06:03.180 --> 00:06:05.939 seems to be there's a lot of interest in the 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:09.459 spectrum that they have yeah but i i don't know 00:06:09.459 --> 00:06:12.709 if i can really trust that it will be an objective 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:14.970 investigation, which is really my biggest concern. 00:06:15.370 --> 00:06:17.089 Because it's not like we're the biggest fans 00:06:17.089 --> 00:06:20.009 of Echo, Star, and Dish. But I just think that 00:06:20.009 --> 00:06:22.689 it would be really unfair and unfortunate if 00:06:22.689 --> 00:06:25.149 SpaceX was the one to be able to take advantage 00:06:25.149 --> 00:06:28.430 of this technology, of this spectrum. So it'll 00:06:28.430 --> 00:06:29.829 be really interesting to see how this investigation 00:06:29.829 --> 00:06:33.990 moves forward and whether it will be a fair investigation. 00:06:34.730 --> 00:06:37.350 So what's the expected sort of conclusion on 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:39.670 all this, Anshul? Has that been shared publicly? 00:06:41.599 --> 00:06:44.339 expect when does the fcc expect to wind its its 00:06:44.339 --> 00:06:46.600 investigation down and come to some decisions 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:50.560 they just said that they will they've started 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:53.579 their investigation yeah and there's a quote 00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:56.180 in this light reading article it says carr said 00:06:56.180 --> 00:06:59.500 he would do so to help inform the fcc's thinking 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:02.620 about echo star's use of spectrum so there's 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:05.620 A lot of really interesting things in here. The 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:08.220 context ahead of time is that there's some stuff 00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:10.740 about SpaceX trying to convince FCC to take the 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:13.360 spectrum from Echo Star and give it to SpaceX. 00:07:13.699 --> 00:07:17.019 SpaceX recently alleged in an FCC filing that 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:19.339 the 5G network built by Echo Star's dish network 00:07:19.339 --> 00:07:21.420 in some cases operates at power levels that are 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:25.620 just 1 to 5 % of what would be expected as compared 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.019 to operations by its rivals. So they're trying 00:07:28.019 --> 00:07:30.420 to say that they're not even trying to build 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:34.560 a network. And it's AWS four band. So it's two 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:38.240 gigahertz. It's 20, a block of 20 megahertz. 00:07:38.420 --> 00:07:42.160 And then another block of 20 megahertz in the 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:46.120 2200 and 2000 megahertz bands. So there's a decent 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:48.920 amount of spectrum there. And it just, it seems 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.899 like SpaceX really wants a spectrum. And while 00:07:51.899 --> 00:07:56.610 I think it's valid to question Echo stars. 5g 00:07:56.610 --> 00:07:58.810 network i do think there should be an impartial 00:07:58.810 --> 00:08:01.209 investigation to determine whether or not this 00:08:01.209 --> 00:08:04.110 is spectrum squatting which we know they've been 00:08:04.110 --> 00:08:06.730 responsible and caught doing before yeah i also 00:08:06.730 --> 00:08:08.649 think other operators should have a chance at 00:08:08.649 --> 00:08:11.110 that spectrum maybe it goes to auction i agree 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:13.230 but i don't think spacex should be the only ones 00:08:13.230 --> 00:08:15.910 that have access to it i agree i agree and you're 00:08:15.910 --> 00:08:19.639 right the optics on elon His involvement with 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:22.139 Doge, even if that's officially been concluded 00:08:22.139 --> 00:08:25.980 or not, it puts a lot of things in question as 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:27.879 to whether is there going to be a fair evaluation 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:30.120 here. So I get it. We're not going to get political. 00:08:30.579 --> 00:08:32.899 But yeah, it'll just be interesting. So we will 00:08:32.899 --> 00:08:36.679 definitely monitor this situation. I wasn't aware 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:38.639 of this, and we might want to come back on a 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:40.860 future podcast and update our viewers and listeners. 00:08:42.009 --> 00:08:43.929 Let me go to my second topic. I'm going to be 00:08:43.929 --> 00:08:46.529 really quick with this. I hate to be cruel, but 00:08:46.529 --> 00:08:48.850 I both got the email on Mobile World Congress 00:08:48.850 --> 00:08:53.149 Las Vegas and its evolution, right? I think most 00:08:53.149 --> 00:08:57.049 people know that MWC Las Vegas was a reconstituted 00:08:57.049 --> 00:09:01.549 CTIA event. And the CTIA, wrong or indifferent, 00:09:01.730 --> 00:09:04.830 just hasn't done a good job of getting people 00:09:04.830 --> 00:09:10.230 to their event. So the GSMA folks came in, hoped 00:09:10.230 --> 00:09:13.100 to save it. and turned it into a regional event 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:17.139 it was in la it was moved to vegas and i've attended 00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:19.960 over the last few years and it's just never gotten 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:22.000 the momentum that it's needed and so now this 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.559 year you and i in our inboxes get this note around 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:27.720 how it's the events being rebranded to be focused 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:31.379 on more of an enterprise -led show and hey i 00:09:31.379 --> 00:09:34.379 get it when you look at sort of private cellular 00:09:34.379 --> 00:09:36.820 we are beginning to see the adoption ramp a little 00:09:36.820 --> 00:09:38.879 bit although i did read some news recently from 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:41.820 another market research company that that kind 00:09:41.820 --> 00:09:44.700 of they beg to differ they don't see the robustness 00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:47.120 and the uptake on private cellular but wrong 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:48.820 or indifferent it's just really interesting and 00:09:48.820 --> 00:09:52.000 just it makes me wonder and i think you and i 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.240 had a sidebar on this is it time just to put 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.159 a fork in this event because it's obviously it's 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.000 not getting the attendance that the other mwc 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.080 events get such as barcelona and singapore and 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:08.710 we're not singapore the asia events Shanghai 00:10:08.710 --> 00:10:10.830 event as well. What do you think? Is it time 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:13.509 for folks to put a fork in it and move on? I 00:10:13.509 --> 00:10:16.809 do think that this event should go away. But 00:10:16.809 --> 00:10:20.330 I will also say, moving from LA to Vegas, I don't 00:10:20.330 --> 00:10:22.389 think that really did anything for it. I think 00:10:22.389 --> 00:10:24.110 it just made it easier for them to find hotels. 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:27.889 But what I do think is, I saw some recent news 00:10:27.889 --> 00:10:30.610 that Verizon is going to start pivoting away 00:10:30.610 --> 00:10:32.629 from talking about their network and more talking 00:10:32.629 --> 00:10:36.029 about their services. And we've seen that from 00:10:36.029 --> 00:10:38.490 T -Mobile and AT &T as well. So I think maybe 00:10:38.490 --> 00:10:40.769 this is a change of sentiment from the carriers 00:10:40.769 --> 00:10:43.350 who have been to the drivers of the CTIA event, 00:10:43.509 --> 00:10:46.210 saying that maybe they want to turn this into 00:10:46.210 --> 00:10:50.289 more of a telecom enterprise show where enterprise 00:10:50.289 --> 00:10:54.830 companies and buyers and services can meld together 00:10:54.830 --> 00:11:00.009 with telecoms to deploy appropriately. I'm not 00:11:00.009 --> 00:11:02.919 really sure, but that's like... My only reasoning 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.379 why this might make sense is that operators are 00:11:05.379 --> 00:11:08.759 trying to turn into enterprise solution providers 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:12.120 and that this might be their way of saying that. 00:11:12.340 --> 00:11:15.539 Yeah, I know clearly with T -Mobile, what they're 00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:16.980 doing with their advanced network solutions, 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.440 they are focused on outcome, not access. And 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:21.779 we're going to talk a little bit more about that 00:11:21.779 --> 00:11:24.139 with my third and final topic. But I think it's 00:11:24.139 --> 00:11:27.789 an accurate observation. And let's see if the 00:11:27.789 --> 00:11:30.629 third time's a charm here, but I have your sentiment. 00:11:30.690 --> 00:11:32.950 It's like, I don't plan to attend this year. 00:11:33.210 --> 00:11:36.029 In fact, I've worked with the T -Mobile team 00:11:36.029 --> 00:11:38.429 on the unconventional awards. This is part of 00:11:38.429 --> 00:11:41.850 T -Mobile for business. And they've actually 00:11:41.850 --> 00:11:46.350 moved that award celebration to a different event. 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:49.549 And so it won't be at MWC Las Vegas. And yeah. 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:51.820 So it'll be interesting. I don't want to throw 00:11:51.820 --> 00:11:55.279 the baby out with the bathwater, but this event 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:58.279 just hasn't found its footing for many years. 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:00.019 So it'll be interesting to see what happens. 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.539 But hey, let's go to your second topic. You want 00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:05.679 to talk about T -Mobile. They've got some information 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.860 that they posted from Ookla around the performance 00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:10.559 of their network, and it's pretty impressive. 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:12.840 I did catch this news, but why don't you share 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.600 that with our viewers and listeners? Yeah, so 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.200 it's actually like a double whammy here. The 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.100 first was that they announced that they were 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:24.620 able to do 550 megabits per second uplink on 00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:27.279 a sub -6 connection. So that's not with any millimeter 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:29.539 wave at all. So that's a pretty big achievement. 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.340 But then on top of that, there was an article 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:35.600 that I saw online reading that was about looking 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.419 at network performance. And there's a graph that 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:42.029 obviously I... I still have to figure out how 00:12:42.029 --> 00:12:44.250 to use this platform, but in the future, I will 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:46.549 be able to show graphs as we do these live streams. 00:12:46.929 --> 00:12:49.769 They showed the 21 Ultra, 22 Ultra, 23 Ultra, 00:12:49.870 --> 00:12:52.730 24 Ultra, and 25 Ultra from Samsung and how those 00:12:52.730 --> 00:12:56.190 perform on all three networks and how much better 00:12:56.190 --> 00:12:59.370 your performance can improve as you upgrade to 00:12:59.370 --> 00:13:02.090 a newer high -end smartphone. And the truth is 00:13:02.090 --> 00:13:05.850 the S20 whatever Ultra is going to be the best 00:13:05.850 --> 00:13:10.000 network performance device you have. That's why 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:12.639 obviously T -Mobile would benefit from this. 00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:17.519 They were showing on the S25 Ultra that T -Mobile's 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:22.139 median download speed was 442 megabits per second. 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:28.519 That's compared to Verizon's 315 and AT &T's 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:34.269 216. But what's crazy is if you get like... let's 00:13:34.269 --> 00:13:37.830 say you've got the s25 ultra on verizon you would 00:13:37.830 --> 00:13:42.470 be as fast as the 22 ultra on t -mobile you know 00:13:42.470 --> 00:13:45.830 now so it's really interesting because people 00:13:45.830 --> 00:13:47.909 this is a conversation i always have with people 00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:50.610 is if you're not having a good experience on 00:13:50.610 --> 00:13:54.289 your phone it's probably your phone And it's 00:13:54.289 --> 00:13:57.190 not the network. In fact, in some cases, you're 00:13:57.190 --> 00:14:00.009 being left behind by the network because the 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:02.690 network's being upgraded. There's new bands being 00:14:02.690 --> 00:14:03.870 introduced, new technologies. And your phone 00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:05.870 doesn't have the capability. And your phone doesn't 00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:08.789 support them. So if you had an S21 Ultra, your 00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:13.850 peak speed on T -Mobile is almost half of what 00:14:13.850 --> 00:14:17.450 it would be on a 25. So that's median download, 00:14:17.549 --> 00:14:20.629 not even peak. So I just think that I live in 00:14:20.629 --> 00:14:23.149 a world where I'm getting the latest S. S series 00:14:23.149 --> 00:14:25.950 from Samsung. I'm lucky to be like that, but 00:14:25.950 --> 00:14:28.230 the truth is it improves coverage, it improves 00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:31.870 speeds, and it just shows when you have the right 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:34.149 equipment, you can really make the most of the 00:14:34.149 --> 00:14:37.090 best network. And even on Verizon, you're getting 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:39.990 315 if you have the latest S25 Ultra. I think 00:14:39.990 --> 00:14:42.330 it's really important that equipment makes a 00:14:42.330 --> 00:14:45.090 difference. Modems make a difference. I'm actually 00:14:45.090 --> 00:14:49.629 working on assessing the Apple C1 modem on the 00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:52.879 new 16E and seeing how that compares to like 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.580 an S25 Ultra or maybe even a base 25 just because 00:14:56.580 --> 00:15:00.139 those are more close in price. But anyways, just 00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:02.659 something I'm working on, but also really shows, 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:05.399 you know, what you can do on a really good network 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.519 with a really good phone. Yeah. Yeah. You got 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.279 to have both, right? You got to have the phone 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:11.460 that's going to be compatible and you've got 00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:15.299 to have a kick -ass network and T -Mobile's built 00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:18.529 a kick -ass standalone network, right? But Verizon 00:15:18.529 --> 00:15:21.610 and AT &T are closing the gap there. But yeah, 00:15:21.690 --> 00:15:23.409 it's been interesting. Hey, and we'll just take 00:15:23.409 --> 00:15:25.669 that victory lap again. You and I, like years 00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:29.690 ago, when the whole notion of T -Mobile acquiring 00:15:29.690 --> 00:15:34.210 Sprint was fading very quickly and we flash forward 00:15:34.210 --> 00:15:36.669 now. It's been, boy, it's been about five or 00:15:36.669 --> 00:15:38.889 six years, but it's been fun to watch for sure. 00:15:39.149 --> 00:15:41.909 But hey, let me hit my third and final topic. 00:15:42.090 --> 00:15:44.090 And I alluded to this. We were talking about 00:15:44.090 --> 00:15:47.669 how mobile network operators really... In order 00:15:47.669 --> 00:15:50.070 to monetize the billions of euros and billions 00:15:50.070 --> 00:15:52.110 of dollars that are invested in these networks 00:15:52.110 --> 00:15:55.009 from spectrum acquisition and infrastructure 00:15:55.009 --> 00:15:57.070 perspective, they've got to move beyond access, 00:15:57.289 --> 00:16:00.669 right? Security is a big deal. The nature of 00:16:00.669 --> 00:16:04.590 mobile networks or the threat surfaces are massive 00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:06.750 when you think about the number of subscribers, 00:16:07.169 --> 00:16:11.110 the number of devices per subscriber. And it's 00:16:11.110 --> 00:16:14.330 interesting that both AT &T and T -Mobile within 00:16:14.330 --> 00:16:16.470 just a few weeks of one another have announced 00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:19.490 partnerships with Palo Alto Networks. And Palo 00:16:19.490 --> 00:16:21.549 Alto Networks does a number of different things 00:16:21.549 --> 00:16:23.710 very well from a security standpoint. They've 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:26.509 really, Palo Alto Networks has really driven. 00:16:27.259 --> 00:16:31.179 what I call the power platform, and moving away 00:16:31.179 --> 00:16:35.500 from best of breed bespoke solutions to a cluster 00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:39.720 of highly effective solutions that cover the 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:43.279 majority of security needs for enterprises and 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.080 organizations. There's a lot of advantages there 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.080 from a licensing perspective and from a management 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.029 perspective. And what I really like about Palo 00:16:52.029 --> 00:16:54.070 Alto Networks is that they've been very focused 00:16:54.070 --> 00:16:58.190 on secure access service edge, so SASE, but a 00:16:58.190 --> 00:17:02.429 5G flavor of that. And so at RSA conference, 00:17:03.009 --> 00:17:06.289 TNT announced a partnership with Palo Alto Networks 00:17:06.289 --> 00:17:10.450 where TNT's dynamic defense is being leveraged 00:17:10.450 --> 00:17:14.269 with Palo Alto Networks Prisma access solution. 00:17:14.750 --> 00:17:17.849 And what this does is it enhances cybersecurity 00:17:17.849 --> 00:17:22.509 posture from Both owned and own network. So an 00:17:22.509 --> 00:17:24.710 enterprise that's managing the infrastructure 00:17:24.710 --> 00:17:27.829 and all of that on their network, but also unowned 00:17:27.829 --> 00:17:31.869 as, as traffic comes over the internet and there's 00:17:31.869 --> 00:17:35.130 it enters into a private enterprise network. 00:17:35.849 --> 00:17:39.710 Having a level of visibility and security with 00:17:39.710 --> 00:17:42.769 that is, is very important. And security is all 00:17:42.769 --> 00:17:44.769 about a layered approach, right? The more layers 00:17:44.769 --> 00:17:49.539 you can bring to bear. from a very highly manageable 00:17:49.539 --> 00:17:52.200 perspective, the better security posture you 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.759 can maintain. So that's the nature of AT &T's 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.099 announcement with Palo Alto Networks. Now, just 00:17:57.099 --> 00:18:00.339 today, T -Mobile announced a similar partnership, 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.819 again, enhancing what they're already doing with 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:08.779 their 5G SaaS solution. And just to refresh our 00:18:08.779 --> 00:18:11.640 viewers and listeners on this, T -Mobile has, 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:14.480 they're in the midst of deploying 5G Advanced 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.720 on their standalone network. They have a T -SIM 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.299 secure solution, which is a SIM -based clientless 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:23.579 authentication, something that leverages what 00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:26.660 they've been doing with their TIOT solution as 00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:29.180 well. And then you and I have talked about the 00:18:29.180 --> 00:18:31.559 T -Mobile security slice as well. And that was 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:33.759 announced. It's been at least a year or longer. 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.460 And I've written about that and have commented 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:39.500 on how I think that's very unique and different 00:18:39.500 --> 00:18:42.609 because, again, Because T -Mobile has the only 00:18:42.609 --> 00:18:45.450 nationwide standalone network, they can do network 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:47.410 slicing. And so they've done the security slice 00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:49.730 that's tailored to complement what they're doing 00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:52.250 from the SASE perspective. So I really like this 00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:55.609 because. For the longest time, T -Mobile was 00:18:55.609 --> 00:18:58.269 just someone else's SD -WAN solution and SASE 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:01.690 solution. So this really brings a lot of, I think, 00:19:01.730 --> 00:19:04.369 differentiation and value to what T -Mobile for 00:19:04.369 --> 00:19:06.329 Business is doing with their 5G SASE solution. 00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:08.869 And also, and I'm not going to throw water on 00:19:08.869 --> 00:19:11.410 what AT &T is doing as well, dynamic defense 00:19:11.410 --> 00:19:14.650 is a tremendous effort to embed security controls 00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:17.950 directly into the network fabric. So it's a different 00:19:17.950 --> 00:19:20.849 approach than T -Mobile's. Yeah, so I think this 00:19:20.849 --> 00:19:22.769 is great. It's going to bring monetization up. 00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:25.740 opportunities for Palo Alto Networks, AT &T, 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.859 and T -Mobile. And it's going to deliver just 00:19:27.859 --> 00:19:30.119 stronger security for customers that utilize 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.119 it. And I know security is not a big strength 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:34.420 of yours. You don't focus on that too much. But 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:36.700 what do you think about the monetization opportunities 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:40.900 here? I would say most of my security focus is 00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:43.180 client -based. It is. Versus infrastructure. 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:46.420 I would say that to me, it's interesting because 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:48.799 one of the biggest challenges I've seen with 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.019 5G networks And something like, let's say standalone 00:19:52.019 --> 00:19:56.240 is just like industry adoption. So I think if 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.000 more operators are offering differentiated security 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.700 capabilities, I think what that does is it sets 00:20:03.700 --> 00:20:08.019 enterprises and developers up for a better understanding 00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:10.839 of the environment. And I think maybe it's one 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:12.640 of those things where it's like standardization 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.339 might be something that would benefit the operators 00:20:16.339 --> 00:20:19.400 and the industry. And maybe a more standardized 00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:21.079 approach for these kind of security solutions 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.460 would be great. But it also sounds like this 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:26.660 is something that the operators want to offer 00:20:26.660 --> 00:20:29.779 as a differentiated offering and give themselves 00:20:29.779 --> 00:20:34.099 a little bit of a unique approach to security. 00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:37.359 I think in net, it's a good thing. And I think 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:38.839 it also builds on what I was saying earlier, 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:41.240 where these operators want to become more of 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:45.809 like a solution. as opposed to just a dump pipe 00:20:45.809 --> 00:20:48.529 because they hate being called a dump pipe. So 00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:51.930 it's like moving in the opposite direction. Yeah, 00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:54.269 yeah. And I agree and didn't mean to cut you 00:20:54.269 --> 00:20:57.069 off there, but I think AT &T and Verizon have 00:20:57.069 --> 00:20:59.630 probably done a better job in the past in focusing 00:20:59.630 --> 00:21:03.450 on enterprise solutions. versus T -Mobile, but 00:21:03.450 --> 00:21:05.950 I got to give the TFB credit and Cali Field. 00:21:06.329 --> 00:21:08.509 They're really upping their game. And I really 00:21:08.509 --> 00:21:10.190 like this announcement. I really like the AT 00:21:10.190 --> 00:21:12.609 &T announcement as well. And it really demonstrates 00:21:12.609 --> 00:21:15.650 the depth and breadth and the strength of Palo 00:21:15.650 --> 00:21:18.490 Alto Networks to be able to work with two of 00:21:18.490 --> 00:21:20.569 the largest mobile network operators in the United 00:21:20.569 --> 00:21:24.069 States. So I think it's great. But hey, let's 00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:25.970 wrap things up. Let's go hit your third topic. 00:21:26.170 --> 00:21:27.789 You want to talk about, I'm probably going to 00:21:27.789 --> 00:21:30.970 mispronounce the company. Is it Jami? Am I pronouncing 00:21:30.970 --> 00:21:35.630 that correctly? Xiaomi. And they are going to 00:21:35.630 --> 00:21:37.970 announce their own smartphone SOC. And so you 00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:41.529 want to provide some highlights on that. Yes, 00:21:41.529 --> 00:21:45.470 this is going to be called the X -Ring 01. It 00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:49.109 is their first smartphone SOC that they've built 00:21:49.109 --> 00:21:52.990 in -house. It was announced by the CEO himself 00:21:52.990 --> 00:21:59.549 on China's version of Twitter. And that whole 00:21:59.549 --> 00:22:04.109 like... announcement on Weibo, which is the Chinese 00:22:04.109 --> 00:22:06.609 version of Twitter. They said that they'll announce 00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:12.089 it in late May and that some leaks have indicated 00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:14.630 that it will be built on TSMC's four nanometer 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:17.990 process, which is not its most recent three nanometer. 00:22:18.089 --> 00:22:20.190 It's actually been on like three generations 00:22:20.190 --> 00:22:22.950 of three nanometer now. So it's a little bit 00:22:22.950 --> 00:22:25.829 of an older node. It will be a seven core setup. 00:22:26.230 --> 00:22:29.410 It will probably use standard ARM cores from 00:22:29.410 --> 00:22:32.059 what I would assume. There haven't been very 00:22:32.059 --> 00:22:36.019 many clear indications on what the specs will 00:22:36.019 --> 00:22:38.500 be. They haven't really confirmed it. But what's 00:22:38.500 --> 00:22:41.359 interesting is that people are already acknowledging 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.400 that it likely won't be close to the most current 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.680 flagships from Qualcomm and MediaTek, but that 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:50.559 it will probably be closer to something like 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.000 a couple of generations behind. So this won't 00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.640 be a flagship SSE for flagship phones. But what 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.839 I'm hearing... from the market is that this is 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.519 a continuation of government efforts to push 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.420 chinese smartphone manufacturers to have their 00:23:05.420 --> 00:23:08.920 own socs and what i find really interesting is 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.740 huawei has been banned from using tsmc but it 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:16.799 seems that xiaomi hasn't so i'm very curious 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.000 about how that's going to work out and what the 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:22.059 administration is going to do and How TSMC is 00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:24.079 going to have to explain that, we'll see when 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:26.700 the launch happens later this month. But I do 00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:29.279 think it's really interesting because they haven't 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:31.700 done their own in -house chipset since 2017. 00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:35.079 It's been eight years. So I'm pretty sure most 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:36.700 of the people who built that first one aren't 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:39.259 with the company anymore. And it's just really 00:23:39.259 --> 00:23:40.640 interesting because I think we're going to see 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.690 more homegrown Chinese SoCs. but they're not 00:23:43.690 --> 00:23:45.289 going to be able to compete with the likes of 00:23:45.289 --> 00:23:47.589 MediaTek and Qualcomm because they're probably 00:23:47.589 --> 00:23:49.369 not going to have access to the latest process 00:23:49.369 --> 00:23:53.269 nodes nor licenses. to the most recent ARM cores. 00:23:53.569 --> 00:23:54.970 This is going to be an interesting development 00:23:54.970 --> 00:23:57.309 that I think we should follow and continue to 00:23:57.309 --> 00:23:59.410 pay attention to because it could also find its 00:23:59.410 --> 00:24:01.210 way into wearables and other segments of the 00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:03.609 market. But it's an interesting development just 00:24:03.609 --> 00:24:05.650 because I think we're going to see more Chinese 00:24:05.650 --> 00:24:07.829 OEMs having to do their own chips because the 00:24:07.829 --> 00:24:10.329 Chinese government's probably mandating it. And 00:24:10.329 --> 00:24:12.829 yeah, it's just a cool, interesting update. And 00:24:12.829 --> 00:24:14.670 I'll stay on top of it because I'm our semiconductor 00:24:14.670 --> 00:24:18.490 guy. You are. And I'm leaning into that as well 00:24:18.490 --> 00:24:21.720 when it comes to interconnects. I've published 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:24.599 some stuff with Intel and Marvell and Broadcom 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.339 had a big co -packaged optics announcement today. 00:24:28.740 --> 00:24:30.700 Hopefully I'm not breaking the embargo on that. 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:33.980 I just flew across the country and I'm a little 00:24:33.980 --> 00:24:37.720 tired. Everybody has some kind of co -packaged 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:40.640 optics solution now. It's the hottest thing. 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:46.079 Credit NVIDIA GTC for launching. Intel, NVIDIA, 00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:49.339 Broadcom. I'm sure we're going to see it from 00:24:49.339 --> 00:24:51.549 AMD. And you're going to see a bunch of startups 00:24:51.549 --> 00:24:54.509 as well. I just got off a call with someone that 00:24:54.509 --> 00:24:57.069 you and I know that used to be at Qualcomm that's 00:24:57.069 --> 00:24:59.329 at a startup now. And they took me through what 00:24:59.329 --> 00:25:01.690 they're doing with Copack and Joptics as well. 00:25:01.789 --> 00:25:05.569 But hey, my friend, it's been another great podcast. 00:25:05.990 --> 00:25:08.369 We need to be doing these weekly. I'm to blame, 00:25:08.369 --> 00:25:10.130 I think, for a lot of that with my crazy travel. 00:25:10.210 --> 00:25:12.500 But why don't you take us home? Absolutely. We 00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:14.279 hope our viewers and listeners found next week's 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:16.299 topics interesting. If anyone out there would 00:25:16.299 --> 00:25:18.440 like to reach out and provide insights on a specific 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:21.140 5G topic for a future podcast, please reach out 00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:23.680 to us on social media. Will is at WillTownTech, 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:25.940 and I'm at OnShell. We hope you have a great 00:25:25.940 --> 00:25:28.000 weekend, and please tune in again next week.