Welcome to Episode 215 of the G2 on 5G. It's the latest Insight Scoop on everything 5G, cover six topics in about 20 minutes, and it's brought to you by More Insights and Strategy. I'm Will Townsend, and joining me again this week is fellow analyst Anshul Sag. Let's get started with my first topic, and this is pretty big news. Nokia recently named Former Intel executive, Justin Hotard as its new CEO. So apparently Pekka Lundmark, who has been CEO at Nokia since 2020, made the decision to move into an advisory role, move to the board. And Mr. Hoddard, it's going to take over on April 1st. And this is big news, but I think the timing is is serendipitous for Nokia. We've talked about Nokia, what they're doing with autonomous networks, how they're going after data center business. A few years ago, the company refocused its efforts on enterprise, and Hodder brings a lot of experience from Intel to bear because he was responsible both for Intel's AI strategy as well as their data center strategy. From my perspective, this is great timing for Nokia, and it may allow them, to have a new set of eyes, some new leadership in place. To take it to the next level, by all intents and purposes, this did not look like it was anything that was pressured on Mr. Lundmark to to lead the organization. It's just an opportunity for the company to move to the next level. It's mobile business has stabilized some we've talked about that on prior podcasts, but, Justin as well, right on chill. And what are your initial thoughts of this big move? I think it's interesting. I'm a little bit surprised to be honest with you. Mostly because he's only been at Intel for a year. Yeah. What was he before Intel? He was at HPE. Okay. And he was doing a lot of AI stuff there. He, his position at Intel made sense to me primarily because he was doing AI at HPE and he moved to to Intel that made sense switching over to Nokia, I think is a little bit different. Obviously he's still very much doing infrastructure. And dealing with a lot of the same customers, but if anything, to me, this is a signal from Nokia that they are trying to move more in the direction of AI and they want a CEO who understands AI better than previous CEOs. Also he's not Finnish which is very different for Nokia. So this is very clearly a sign from the board that they are looking outside of their usual bubble. And I think it will probably be a positive thing for Nokia, but I want to see how things are going to change strategically within Nokia. Obviously, they've tried to diversify their business and do more things, but I think that also requires a new CEO with different thinking and Yeah, I just, it feels a little bit weird, but I also think that it makes sense if this is the direction trying to go in, What's also interesting is that Nokia is on, on a growing basis, adopting Intel into its infrastructure stack as well. And this could be also another reason why they're bringing someone from Intel into Nokia. Nokia has had a track record with with us trying to do their own S. O. C. S. And, it's been hit or miss, and they're leaning more into Intel for a lot of that. And the other benefit here is that, bringing in someone that's coming from Intel. But to your point, that's only been an Intel for a year might help in that regard. So it's interesting. Time will tell. But we've been talking about Nokia on the last several podcasts, and I think Ultimately, this could be a very positive thing for the company, but we will continue to monitor things. And I'm sure we'll be talking about this even further down the road. But with that, let's go to your first topic and big news, Superbowl Sunday. And unfortunately my chiefs, they just didn't show up, but T Mobile showed up with SpaceX. And they had a really big announcement related to their partnership. And you want to talk more about that? Yeah. So we teased this a little bit on last week's podcast. We weren't able to talk about it cause we were under NDA and now we're able to talk about it. Initially when I wrote this up, it was 451 satellites. They're now up to 464 as of today. I think that's going to be a continually updating number as more satellites go up. I think they just had a launch in the last couple of days. That was on a Falcon Heavy rocket, and that makes sense. Basically they did some Super Bowl ad they also worked with Mark Rober the beta is launched and it will be available to anyone and everyone on any carrier in the U. S. until July. Up until that point, it will then be A 15 a month service for T Mobile customers and 20 a month service for non T Mobile customers. And you and I have pretty much gone over all the details. I plan on actually doing a write up about this. I just haven't had time. But yeah, it was, it's really cool. I think the one thing that's really interesting about it is it doesn't require any specific hardware. It just runs on your phone. And not only does it just run on your phone, it'll run on a pixel nine on a 2024 moto, Samsung galaxy series, T Mobile's rebel series, iPhone 14 and newer. So it's like very much, compatible with a lot of the latest flagship devices. I think with time, there's a chance that it will be available with lesser smartphones. But it has to do with the modem and its capabilities. And they work really closely with AT& T, oh sorry, with Apple and and Google to ensure that this would be the primary service on people's phones if they have it. So that way it doesn't kick back to the other satellite services. And T Mobile's Basically wants to have as many possible customers on this as they can to enable its capabilities. Network will continue to improve and add features. So it starts out with messaging and then we'll move over to data voice, potentially video at some point. And, From my perspective, Some interesting things going on. They're going to, they're going to try and continue launching more satellites. But also there's going to be a discount for T Mobile users who wants to add it early. It'll be 10 bucks a month there, but if you have the most expensive plan on T Mobile, it'll be free, which is the Go Next 5G, which is like the constant upgrade phone plan. It's the most expensive one. I don't even have that one. But it's a lot, there's a lot going on. The beta program is. I think it'd be a good opportunity for people to test it out. But the one thing that I think is really important about this service is you don't have to install an app. You don't have to launch any kind of calibration software. It's good to go right off the bat. All you have to do is do one software update, and that will do everything for you. And essentially the way it works is an LTE network, so it's not actually a 5G network. But when you lose terrestrial service, it will then connect to the satellite service as if it were an LTE network that just magically popped up out of nowhere. So I think that's the cool part is it's designed to be Really easy to use and brainless in terms of how you use it. And it just operates like a cell tower. I think there were some animations where they show like launching satellites in the sky and or launching cell towers in the sky and then them covering the, the sky with cell towers in the sky, which is effectively what these are now. But yeah, I'd love to hear what you think. I blabbered enough. No, you did a great job. I think I tried to cut you off earlier, two observations. I have number one the sort of the frictionless approach that they're taking, I think, is brilliant. When you and I were pre briefed and held under double secret NDA, they compared, their experience to what you have to do currently with apples where you have to. Point your phone in the sky and, align it to a satellite and they knew that would create friction. And so I really like what they're doing to basically make it seamless number one. And then I also find it very interesting that they're opening the beta. To customers beyond T Mobile. So if you're on Verizon and if you're on AT& T and you have the right equipment, you have the right modem, obviously, as you were discussing you can participate in the beta as well. And that's interesting because they could have kept the beta just. For T Mobile customers is a perk, but they really want to get this out, very broadly in the market. And hey, I, I don't know if someone would necessarily move to T Mobile that's on AT& T and Verizon after, experiencing the beta, but I just think it's a very interesting marketing tactic on their part. But, as you and I have discussed for many years now, T Mobile tends to be very aggressive and very innovative when it comes to marketing to consumers. But those are two of my main observations there. But with that, let's move to my second topic. And I'm going to talk about something that you've been talking about on the last couple of podcasts. And it's been the subject of RedCap. And I caught some news recently that OT Telefonica, and this is the part of the mobile network operator that operates in Germany is trialing 5G RedCap with Germany's energy sector. And this is a perfect Use case, right? You and I have been talking about the various things that, reduced capacity 5G can do, and I'm just going to, this was an RCR wireless article that I caught recently, but basically in the press release what O2 Telefonica is stating is that they believe that this is going to enhance mobile connectivity for utility companies by enabling seamless integration of smart meters, Smart grid components, sensors and other essential devices with power grids and supply systems. And this is a great example of how municipalities and energy companies can leverage something like 5G very pervasively versus typically how smart, grid management has been executed, deployed and managed has been through bespoke different types of solutions like LoRaWAN and that sort of thing. And this is the first trial of its kind. So it's going to be really interesting to see the results from this and and see what comes next. But what do you think, this has got to validate your passion for 5g red cap recently. Yeah. Here's the thing I'm passionate about 5g red cap because it, it does a lot of things for a lot of people, which is what 5g needs to be. And it does things that 4g did. better than 4G did for those applications. It's going to be more programmable. It's going to be faster. And it's also going to just be cheaper, right? The cost is a huge problem for a lot of industries and being able to deploy, 5G RedCap in places like Energy are going to be huge. And I think 5G will have a very long tail, probably a longer tail than, 3G or 4G did just because there's going to be so many industries that will eventually transition to 5G and just, keep using RedCap in perpetuity. So I think it's great and I think we're going to see more applications of 5G RedCap in places that just needed connectivity but couldn't get it reliably. Yeah, I think we're going to see more IOT applications as well. And, Bill Curtis is our analyst in residence at more insights and strategy that covers IOT. So I'm not going to steal any thunder, nor do I profess to be as deep in IOT as he is, but at a very high level. This is what LoRaWAN has been promising, and it's, LoRaWAN has really been focused on narrowband IOT. They've been focused on the economics of it as well, and they've carved themselves out of a very nice niche, and in the energy sector is one of those niches that they've been focused on. I think it's going to be interesting to see as 5G RedCap matures. And it comes out of the labs and out of PMCs and the production how it impacts lower land adoption, if it slows it, whatnot. But again, this is a trial, so it's not production. But it's it's exciting to see the application and the use case here from my perspective, but with that let's go to your second topic and you want to talk about the CTIA and 5G Americas and what they are doing from a coalition perspective to fight cable. This sounds pretty impressive. So the truth is. CTIA doesn't have cable operators. They're a mobile operator business. That's one thing to consider. Also 5G America is a little biased, right? Little bias. Yes. And so is 5G America is they're focused on cellular operators. This is a specific lobbying organization for spectrum for broadband competition. And they're also trying to focus specifically on fixed wireless. Yeah. And they want to basically the first campaign is titled and the cableopoly which is aggressive. But truthfully they have shown time and time again, that fixed wireless is creating real competition for cable and that the cable industry has been inherently anti competitive in so many ways. Oh, and if you look at how quickly these cable operators suddenly have friendly pricing when they have competition it's amazing and it's awful. And, I think it's just one of those things where there was this hope and dream that AT& T U verse was going to do that with a lot of these cable operators. And in some places it did but Google Fiber also tried to do the same thing and in some places it did. Bye. Fiber is expensive to dig and it hasn't really manifested itself particularly well. However, I will say in places where AT& T fibers exists, cable is much more affordable and pricing is much more competitive. So I think, fixed wireless is a good alternative to that, where fiber might not be deployable or the economy of scales don't work. Whatever it might be, nevertheless. We know Fixed Wireless is working because one, Spectrum and Cox and Charter are, and Comcast are actively You know, fighting T Mobile fixed wireless of Verizon's wireless services. And, they have ad campaigns against them and let's be real. If they, if it wasn't working, they wouldn't have those ad campaigns. And we see the, subscriber numbers keep growing for fixed wireless that said there are weaknesses of fixed wireless, cell coverage being one of them. But there are a lot of places where. Having a router in the window may not be ideal. And I think it's not the, end all be all solution to all problems. But I do think having more options, more solutions available to people, some people were using Starlink in places just because Like they couldn't get good cable service and then they discovered they had fixed wireless available and they're like, they kicked Starlink to the curb because it wasn't as fast or as reliable. So I think there's a lot of places where, you know, making every technology available to consumers is ultimately what we should be doing and letting consumers choose and have the choice. And I think that's really where we should be moving whether or not we actually move in that direction with. Elon being in the position that he is, I think we're going to see a lot of use of Starlink in places where probably we should see fixed wireless. But I hope that eventually we reach a point where you get a mixture of cable, fiber, fixed wireless, and satellite, and the user gets to decide what's right for them. based on cost performance. So we'll see what happens. But this is great because, I think there needed to be a little bit more momentum behind these efforts. And it's good to see that there's some lobbying happening. And the truth is the cable companies have, they've been around so long that their lobbying is very heavily entrenched. And that there needs to be regulatory competition as well. I have a huge opinion about this. Um, And I'll, we'll talk about the Florida Keys. So I've talked about this before. I have a home there in Isla Morada and Comcast is really the only game in town and they have progressively increased the price of cable broadband over the years to the point that this year I'm paying over 85 a month and it's ridiculous. And one of the challenges in the Florida Keys is that. That archipelago is solid coral. So think about the difficulty in trenching fiber and you can't go, you cannot go aerial because it's a hurricane risk area, right? So cable has had a monopoly and that part of Florida for many years. But now guess what? AT& T their air service is now available in the Florida Keys. So I will be canceling the Comcast and and deploying my AT& T internet air service. I'll share, my thoughts on what I think about the quality of the service and that sort of thing. But yeah, I think, FWA, we've talked about it being the 5G killer app. We've recently talked about how AI could be, the killer enabler for the use of 5G as well as it goes to network edges and there's a need for mobility and that sort of thing. Yeah. I think this is good. Big cables need to be challenged and, one of my other frustrations has just been on, just the outages, right? There's, there are cable cuts, it seems like every week. Down there. And even though I don't spend the majority of my time down there. I get alerts almost, once every, two or three weeks that there's an outage. Yeah, I'm just, again, I'm very passionate about this. It's great to have alternatives that drives competition that drives innovation. I'm hoping at some point we get fiber. But it may be quite some time before we do. But anyway, that's my opinion on things. But I'll be a lot more succinct on my third and final topic. I want to talk about Erickson and what they're doing to deploy a private cellular network across 68 Texas counties. And as our viewers and listeners are, our regular viewers and listeners know, I live in Bastrop just outside of Austin. I'm a Texas native. I've actually talked about this on a prior podcast. So this is what the lower Colorado river authority. And what they do to manage energy and water and that sort of thing. So about a year and a half ago, there was a very small pilot to determine the feasibility of doing this. Now this is the news that it is going into production. So this is pretty exciting. Again, Erickson is going to lead this. And this is going to happen, over the course of this year and next year. And it's a pretty large Texas utility more than 30 retail utilities, 40 national parks are going to be covered by this private network. I'm personally excited about it because in Bastrop, I live near the Colorado river, and there's a lot of opportunity to fish and, hike and do all of that. And even though we do have cell coverage. It is spotty at best along the river there. So I think it's exciting. It's a great use case and demonstration for the power of cellular networking, just from a coverage perspective. What do you think, my friend? One of the challenges in, in national parks is just this. Do you think this is, something that we're going to see at the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, where you live in California? No, but yes. No, because I think the way you're talking about it sounds very consumer. This is a private 5G network. So I think this is mostly going to be for park rangers, for utilities, whoever might actually need to use connectivity for work purposes. Yeah. It's decidedly back office support, but I do want to clarify. Yeah. But I do envision that that at some point as capacity, increases that. It could also be used, by, by people that frequent parks and that sort of thing. Sure, you could pay for a five dollar day pass or something. Yeah. Yeah, we could see that. I just, maybe the operators will work together to boost coverage and things like that. If it's such to be successful, we'll see. But I think this was going to be, this isn't, this is an opportunity to improve coverage in places where it's not good. And increase applications, maybe it, it offers emergency services. There's a lot of things I can think about with a private network that I think would be really useful. But yeah, it sounds like it's a really fun thing that could be. Now commercial. I would love to see like a list of who's who and what is being deployed. So maybe you can share that with us, but yeah, that's, it sounds like it's a really interesting application for private 5G. Yeah, I'm going to dig into it further. Ericsson does have a pretty large presence in North Texas outside of Dallas. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna be working with with the team there to determine if I can get some time with the the LCRA to learn more about this, maybe do a field trip and and report back on, on what I learned. Good stuff. Let's hit your third and final topic. And I know what, I know a little bit about, what you're going to discuss here, but, you want to discuss Orange and its partnership with Mistral. With respect to A. I. Use cases and I know about it because I just got back from Amsterdam and Cisco is also a part of all of this, but I don't want to steal any of your thunder and let you share the details with our viewers and listeners. Yeah, this is a big part of Europe's A. I. Push working with Mistral which is obviously a European company as well. Honestly, France seems to be the most forward thinking when it comes to A. I. Europe. And, Orange is a big French carrier and Orange has 300 million customers worldwide. Orange is the carrier I use when I'm in France. And yeah I just think this is a really interesting collaboration. It's gonna, take advantage of all of the different things that Mistral has to offer. And I think it will. Bring together one of the world's leading operators of one of the world's leading a I companies to help Europe catch up on a I and I think this is one of the reasons why we maybe saw Europe slow down on a I regulation as opposed to, plow forward because I think they are realizing that, It's a very fast moving space and regulating it a little too aggressively too early is a mistake. That's what I believe. I think we should have regulation. I think the Biden administration was doing a good job of trying to like, at least put some guardrails in place. But the reality is that things are moving fast. And I think it's great to see Orange being one of the leaders in partnering with Mistral. Doing stuff like generative AI, live intelligence, turnkey offerings, featuring the codestall platform which is their LLM. And then they're also going to do like stuff with orange bins business. And yeah it's really interesting. The one thing I love is that they have a product called lay chat, which is Charles product, but it fits perfectly with orange as well. Yeah. Sorry. They call it lay chat pro, but whatever it's but yeah, it's, I think this is a big deal for both companies. And it's a kind of like a vote of confidence in France's ability to be competitive. Really I agree with you. France is really leading the charge within the European Union on AI investigations. And it's smart because when you look at who's leading and driving the bus, it's really the United States, right? Obviously with Nvidia, with open AI, with all of these startups, project Stargate, we've talked about that, but I got a question for you Mr. All like. Can you spend just a little, can you spend a little bit of time on, on their depth? You talked about Gen AI, you talked about some other use cases. It's a company that, our viewers and listeners may not be familiar with. Yeah. It's probably one of the top AI LLM providers. Okay. They have AI infrastructure they have AI tooling. They have lay chat. So they're doing all kinds of fundamental research on models. And they have different APIs to take advantage of that. And most of the big French companies are using them in one way or another. One of their most popular models is the Mistral 7B model, which is very performant. And can run on a lot of different devices and is actually used. for a lot of benchmarks. So it's a it's a world class model. And they do a lot of fine tuning and distillation. And it's it's competitive with what open AI and Google are offering. It's maybe not necessarily always as performant, but it's competitive up there. And their foundational models and their frontier models are quite good. But the big ones are codastrol and minstrol large and then they also have a minstrol these are different parameter models, right? Yes, and that's how big they sit on memory. Obviously you can't have a really large 100 billion plus parameter model sitting on a client device that has to sit in the cloud. But yeah they, I think they're the right choice for Orange, especially if you want to keep data within the borders and keep the regulatory scheme consistent. Yeah, very cool. Like I mentioned, Cisco was a part of this announcement as well. I might, when we edit the podcast, we might drop a link in there. I believe it was around what Cisco is doing around AI defense and that sort of thing, guardrailing these models and, model validation and that sort of thing. But we'll drop some additional context into the edited version. Since we're we're live now on these and we've got no net to catch us. Hey buddy, it's been another great podcast. I'm in Kansas city this week. It's going to be negative 10 tomorrow. I don't know why I let my wife drag me to Missouri in the middle of the winter. But pray for me. We drove from Texas 12 hours. We head back Friday. I hope it's a lot warmer in San Diego as well. You drove the wrong direction. You should have been going this way. You drove to Kansas City. I know. It's 70 degrees here. I'm wearing shorts. Oh man. I'm not complaining. I'll be in New York next week though. So I'll have to wear my coat for that, but yeah I think we, we hope our viewers and listeners found this week's topics interesting. If anyone out there would like to provide insights on a specific 5g topic for a future podcast, please reach out to us on social media. Wills that will contact and I'm at on show side. We hope you have a great week and please tune in again later this week. Hopefully send, don't forget to rate and subscribe.