and more live.
All right.
To our viewers and listeners, welcome.
We're broadcasting these podcasts live and this is episode 212 of the GT on 5G.
It's the latest in site scoop on everything 5G.
We cover six topics in about 20 minutes and it's brought to you by more insights and strategy.
I'm Will Townsend and joining me again this week is subtle analyst Anshul Sag.
Let's get started with my first topic and it is around open round and could the second
Trump administration boost open round deployment.
So there's been a lot of discussion recently.
This week is inauguration week and our friend Mike Dano at Light Reading and an article
it just to review things under Trump's first administration, $1.5 billion were earmarked
for open round.
There was a lot of activity against the open round policy coalition.
They drive a billion dollars in infrastructure investment and I don't know, China likes,
Trump likes to pronounce China.
That's the way he, he pronounces the country's name.
And this was something that was very important to him to eliminate Chinese infrastructure
in the telecommunications industry, given that it is critical infrastructure.
So that's just the question I wanted to pose with you Anshul.
Do you think that open round could see a boost now that Trump's been reelected?
Here's my take.
I think that was already going to happen.
I think let's say Harris won instead of Trump.
I still think we would have gone down this path.
I think with Trump, we might go down this path a little faster.
I think there might be a little bit more money and a little bit more political capital behind
making this happen.
So I think it'll happen faster under Trump, but I don't think it will, it'll necessarily
be different.
I think the only thing that might be different is maybe the terms of how it gets done might
be more beneficial to Trump and his colleagues, but that's about it.
I think, I think realistically we've already seen this shift happening with AT&T and Ericsson.
And I just think that the industry is moving in that direction.
And I think it'll just, it'll move there faster under Trump.
I want to talk a little bit in my second topic about doubling down on AI and what the administration
is going to be doing there as well.
I'll just make it a political podcast this week.
But from my perspective, speeding it, moving most of these deployments from single vendor
to multi-vendor could drive economic gain.
And that's certainly what I think Trump's going to be focused on is job creation and
that sort of thing.
In addition to domesticating the supply chain for 5G and future 6G and other deployments
down the road, but yeah, it's an interesting topic.
I think you and I have talked about the fact that a billion and a half dollars doesn't
significantly move the needle, especially when you look at the prevalence of Chinese
infrastructure, primarily in rural populations.
But yeah, it'll be super interesting to see how it all plays out.
But let's move to your first topic.
One of the reasons why you're dressed so nicely for this recording and you're in a hotel
room is that Samsung held its unpacked event that you attended and you want to provide
your insights into what you found most compelling.
Yeah, I also just got out of recording a video for the 6.5 as well.
We did a recording with Brad Pezinski from Samsung, head of their business side of Samsung.
And it was a very interesting launch because they announced the 25 series.
I actually have mine already in hand.
This is the S25 Ultra.
And they obviously they upgraded the processor to the latest Snapdragon, but it's like semi
custom Snapdragon.
So it's actually the Snapdragon 8 Elite, but it has a custom ISP for special camera features
that Samsung wanted.
And it also has a integrated display controller that's normally not on the chip, but for saving
power purposes is on chip.
It's also clocked a little bit higher than the standard Snapdragon 8 Elite.
So Samsung does have a very specific unique processor.
And as a result of that, this processor is going to be in all 25 phones.
So 25, 25 plus and 25 Ultra all get the Snapdragon 8 Elite and it's globally Snapdragon 8 Elite.
So there's no Samsung Exynos in any region.
And that's going to be really good for AI performance because AI is once again at the
center of things, but Samsung is actually really leaning into AI in a way that I don't
think anybody has done so far because last year they obviously announced and introduced
Galaxy AI, but it lacked some things.
And the most popular feature was circle to search and that feature was available on multiple
phones.
So it wasn't really that unique, but it was first on Samsung and Pixel.
And now they have this on-device agent that provides this capability that it works with
Gemini, but it also works with your on-device apps.
And it protects it with this personal data engine.
It provides these like now briefs and these daily summaries and morning summaries and
it will perform actions for you.
And then on top of that, there's a call transcripts and writing assists and there's all these
different AI capabilities that are going to make things more enjoyable.
And actually I'm the most excited about because I think I'm very forgetful.
And I think there's a lot of ways that this could really help me improve my life.
And I think that you don't really know what it's like until you try it.
But on top of that, they did upgrade the camera.
So the ultra wide, which I think is up here, that's now a 50 megapixel camera.
And the reason why that's a big deal is because a lot of the cool camera features utilize
multiple lenses and sensors and having the ultra wide be a higher resolution means macro
photos are better.
Low light photos are better.
Digital zoom is better and like in-camera stabilization for videos also better.
So it's going to be missed by some people that the ultra wide has a higher resolution
on the ultra, but it's actually a big deal.
So I'm really excited how that's going to pan out.
Top of the line 5G, X80 modem from Qualcomm.
What's really interesting and this kind of got buried.
There's going to be Snapdragon satellite lives.
It's not dead like we thought it was.
And Snapdragon satellite is launching on this phone.
I'm still trying to get some details from Qualcomm.
Is it SOS like Apple's solution?
So from what I gathered in my conversation with Qualcomm, I asked them about this specific
feature and I got like a pretty detailed response saying that it is NTN from Skylo and it's
using narrow band.
It does support native satellite messaging in Android and that it's a standards based
implementation, which would the previous Snapdragon was not.
It seems like it's a messaging platform as well and it's going to compete with all the
other solutions out there.
But I do feel like this might just be Samsung solution in places where the carrier doesn't
offer it.
Okay.
It really seems to me that given the widespread deployment of that custom semi custom Qualcomm
Snapdragon solution that Samsung really wants to lean very aggressively into AI.
Is that sort of your interpretation as well?
Yeah, I think they recognize that the Snapdragon solution for the SOC is superior in GPU, it's
superior in CPU and it's superior in AI.
So they really wanted to lean into the more performant power efficient and this is our
first three nanometer chip as well.
So it's the best of both worlds for Samsung.
And if they can get a few features that they would have otherwise had on this semi custom
SOC, then I think they're much happier.
Yeah.
And I think being uniform, like you said, on a global basis, that greatly simplifies
the supply chain, right?
Totally.
And it also helps developers know that they're going to have to only build to one SOC globally
and they won't have to do an Exynos with whatever GPU they say to use and then a Snapdragon.
So I think that's a net positive as well.
Yeah, I know for sure.
Yeah.
Supply chain simplification is super important in cost optimization that comes along with
that, but making it easier for developers to develop applications as well and time to
market because correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that given the market
share developers tend to code to iOS first and then Android second.
Is that still the case?
It's less the case now than it used to be, but that definitely was the prevailing way
that developers launched a new application.
I think it still does happen from time to time, but generally speaking, a very competent
developer usually launches on both.
Got it.
Cool.
Hey, let's go to my second topic and this is really big news and you got to believe
that this was in the works before Trump was sworn in this week, but Stargate, the Stargate
project, this is a really ambitious AI infrastructure program.
It's actually the Stargate project is a company.
It's a joint venture and initially there's going to be a hundred billion dollars in investment
and building out AI enabled data centers with a long-term goal of getting to half a trillion
dollars.
This is huge.
I read the press release on this first broke.
I just shared it on my social media channels, but one of the underlying considerations is
the creation of over a hundred thousand new jobs.
This is a huge, from my perspective, pivot from the prior administration that wanted
to put guardrails on AI and have model validation through the federal government, which would
probably have been a huge disaster.
I think with the signals that Trump wants to double down, certainly it's a gold mine
for the United States when you look at the ecosystem players and everyone that's participating
in this, it's primarily American companies as well.
It just got me thinking, and because you and I have talked about this, can 5G be pivotal
in a part of what's going on here?
Certainly the networks have already been built out, but certainly the Trump administration
wants to ensure American leadership when it comes to modern AI generative, and there's
already a focus and discussion around agentic AI, which automates a lot of that functionality.
You and I have talked about on prior podcasts how as AI moves hybrid and it moves from large
language models in the cloud to network edges, that 5G mobility could be really pivotal.
I think it will be.
I think hybrid will come into play here.
It's decidedly going to be probably a longer tail deployment, but let me ask you this.
I'm going to put you on the spot.
How in your mind could 5G play a pivotal role in all of this?
I'm so glad you asked because I've been teeing this up answer since you started at the beginning
of this topic.
I think it's going to be 5G ran.
We're going to see all these AI rands in 5G and 6G.
More likely it's going to be a 6G thing, but I think we're already starting to see a lot
of open-rand acceleration.
I think what we've seen with NVIDIA and T-Mobile is just the beginning.
I think those kinds of projects and those kinds of ambitions are going to be where I
think this investment will happen.
Verizon's already starting to embrace NVIDIA as well.
I think what's going to happen is we're going to see the US operators take AI by the horns
and use AI to accelerate 5G and 5G to permeate AI everywhere.
I didn't actually tell you this before we started the podcast.
I'm running this entire setup, including our current live stream through standalone 5G
on the TCL modem with the red cap inside of it.
So we're running this on a red cap right now.
Super stable, like 30, 30 megabits.
But I just wanted to add that this current podcast is live in 5G.
That's incredible, man.
We're sipping our own champagne and eating our own dog food.
In fact, I'm so confident that I am grabbing it right now and holding it.
And this is it right now.
It's powered through the USB port of my laptop.
What's also incredible, you're in a hotel and hotels are fraught with metal and things
that can create...
That's my window right there.
I made sure I had an outward-facing window.
Okay, good.
Good signal.
But yes, this is on T-Mobile.
Super impressive, my friend.
Hey, let's go to your second topic.
And I caught this news.
In fact, I had suggested this topic to you.
But T-Mobile announced its T-Priority last year.
And this is a slice that's dedicated for first responders.
And we have talked about this on prior podcasts.
But I learned this week that T-Mobile activated it for the LA firefighters and first responders.
Yeah, so this is in addition to what they've already been doing with lighting up satellite
services.
I don't know if you saw...
I think we talked about this in the last podcast, that they had turned on satellite services
for specifically people and first responders.
They said that this was a 5GSA network slice specifically for 350 members of the LA Fire
Department.
And this would be the second largest deployment of T-Priority since they announced it within
New York City first responders.
And yeah, they already have the standalone network.
And they said that they already got a lot of requests for Wi-Fi routers and hotspots
and devices on the network, and that the speeds have been so good that they're really happy
with it.
So it seems like it's making a difference.
And the truth is connectivity is always trying to solve problems.
And communications really need to happen over connectivity.
They're also doing lots of things to improve their network as a result of the fires and
getting the network back up and running in that area and making sure that people who
live or lived there are able to communicate with each other and their families and be
able to take advantage of T-Priority and the bandwidth it provides.
Well, and what I like about it is certainly we've talked on numerous podcasts about AT&T
and FirstNet.
That is a dedicated separate network for first responders.
What I like about T-Priority, it provides another layer of connectivity rights for these
first responders to be able to use their personal devices to contact loved ones, friends and
family.
And it just supplements what FirstNet is providing.
I think it's a great demonstration of what a 5G standalone network can deliver.
And it is proving in my mind the promise of network slicing.
And I think there's more to come here as well.
Definitely.
Yeah, but hey, let's move to my third and final topic and I'll be quick about this.
I've been spending time with Nokia recently and understanding what they're doing around
autonomous networks.
And this applies for both traditional communication service providers and for the enterprise.
And initially, Nokia's vision was to bring higher levels of automation to network infrastructure
to reduce operational costs, but also improve outcomes through the application of modern
AI, like generative AI.
Analytics is a big part of that.
Security is a big part of that.
And the network programmability is the fourth leg of the table in all of this.
And I recently published a research paper that is available on the More Insights and
Strategy website for our viewers and listeners.
If you want to learn more about my insights related to Nokia's autonomous network vision,
go download that paper.
But with all of that said, that was in flight before all of the hoopla around Stargate and
that sort of thing.
So a lot of pundits in the industry, including myself, are theorizing that even though Nokia
was focused on doing this to bring operational efficiency to enterprises and operators, this
actually the timing is perfect to position them to participate in this gold rush that's
going to be this AI infrastructure build out with Stargate.
I'll also mention that late last year or earlier this year, I think it was late last year,
Microsoft announced a commitment to invest $80 billion on its own in building AI data
centers to support Azure AI workloads.
We've talked about Nokia.
They've been up and down from a financial performance perspective, but it just gets
me thinking, and I want to get your thought on this.
Is this a ripe opportunity for Nokia to participate in all of this AI infrastructure spend?
Think about their fiber business.
That's an opportunity there.
They have optical strength, right?
Yeah.
And the transport.
Yeah.
And then there's also, there's tons of networking opportunities.
And I just think, yeah, they would be foolish not to take advantage of it.
But you reminded me that when you brought up Stargate, I didn't mention the infighting
between Elon and OpenAI and saying that they don't have the money.
What?
You missed that Twitter.
When did you post that on Reddit?
In the Reddit thread?
No, OpenAI posted about Stargate and then Elon responded saying they don't have the
money.
And then Sam Altman responded saying, actually, we're building the first one already and you
can take it.
You can come over and check it out.
The children are fighting, but I think that the reality is that this is a big opportunity
and everybody wants a piece of it.
Hey, you know what's really interesting, if you dig into it and you look at who the initial
partners are in this joint venture, Oracle is a partner.
And it's interesting because they're the only hyperscaler.
Obviously, Oracle does a lot more than Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, but they do through
OCI, they do have a telecom presence and they deliver telecom solutions.
But the other hyperscalers aren't a part of this.
And so it's interesting when you look at the stocks tied to these initial founding companies
within the JV, they were arm-popped.
Arm-popped big time too.
Oracle popped, Arm popped, they all popped, right?
Nvidia, by the way, Nvidia is back up, but everyone was expecting that given the direction
that we seem to be heading is a reversal of the Biden administration's guardrails on safe
and secure AI.
So a lot of reversals to say the least.
I was also going to say, since you were pitching your paper, I have my non 5G related RTX 5090
review coming tomorrow morning, which is interesting because that's also an AI GPU that uses neural
rendering and it's going to be a very fun read if you're interested, but it is not 5G
related, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
Hey man, shameless plug.
I'm going to plug a couple other things too.
This is AI related, not necessarily 5G related, but I attended Cisco's AI Summit.
I have a more insights and strategy research note hopefully posted by the end of this week.
And this is telecom related.
I got to sit down with Jennifer Robertson that manages AT&T's mass markets business.
That's $90 billion of AT&T's annual revenue.
And we talked about how the company is up leveling the subscriber experience.
That is a Forbes piece that is probably going to post next week.
So two more gratuitous plugs for me.
So do you have another one you want to plug before we hit your third and final?
No, not quite, but I will have a review of this pretty soon.
There's no embargo.
So I'm going to be posting pretty frequently online.
Maybe I'll have a review up next week, but I'm destroying our editor and you are like
last year, you made us all embarrassed, man, that you set the bar.
So I'm getting my act together in the new year.
It's one of my new year's resolutions.
But okay, with all that said, let's talk about Nokia Final Time and they've launched a 5G
360 camera that you want to talk about.
Yes.
So a lot of people don't remember this, but Nokia actually bought a 360, actually they
didn't even buy, they built a 360 camera for VR and it was not very successful.
They wanted to use it for film.
But then today, literally today, actually, sorry, yesterday, they announced a 5G 360
camera for industrial and commercial applications.
And it makes sense because it uses 5G to stream the data.
It's 8K resolution at 30 FPS.
It's IP67 hardened in terms of thermals.
It uses their real time extended reality multimedia software, which they had already built.
And if you think about it, it's perfect for like monitoring work sites and just like having
information out there and being able to use AI to identify the right people that need
to be on site or don't need to be on site.
And it's just like a pretty small camera, self-contained, powered over PoE, and it can
even, it uses cellular 5G or ethernet depending on what you need.
It's really cool.
It's compact.
I would love to see how this works in person.
I didn't see any pricing, but they did say that it will start shipping in Q2.
And the camera was actually already announced in December and I think just flew under everybody's
radar.
Yeah.
So it's completely self-contained, right?
So it does all the compute, all of that on the camera itself.
Cool.
Cisco has had something out there for quite some time through the Meraki portfolio.
I believe it's Snapdragon powered.
Dina, if this one's Snapdragon powered as well.
I didn't see, but it's entirely possible that it is.
I didn't really delve super deeply into what it can do and what its capabilities are.
I think that they're trying to have this be kind of part of their whole real time reality
and being able to have zero latency and just have something that's really powerful and
capable of monitoring in a complete solution.
I'm trying to pull up the data sheets on this as we speak.
And it looks like they're not telling us what processors inside of it, but it's got AK resolution
and all the 5G band support you could ask for.
But yeah, I can't find what processor is in it.
I've been digging.
I think this, I mean, it makes sense.
They're going to end with a lot of stuff.
We've talked about Nokia drones as well, 5G enabled drones and now cameras, and they're
building out a portfolio so they can provide a total solution to customers.
And I'm sure there's some synergies.
I'm sure there's some sort of management console where you can manage not only the underlying
infrastructure, but these attached devices as well.
Yeah, man, big news coming from Nokia over the last several weeks here.
But hey, my friend, it's been another great podcast.
This is our second live one.
I think I'm shaking all the cobwebs off because there are no redos or retakes here when we
do these, but why don't you take us home?
Absolutely.
I just want to say, I feel like we usually do these in one take anyways.
So it's not a huge deal if we make a small mistake, but then I have to edit it out later.
So the less mistakes we make, the better for my editing.
Yeah, I just want to say thanks a lot for everybody who's listening and that if anyone
would like to reach out on a future podcast for a future topic, we're always listening
and we will hopefully be back next week.
I'm traveling this weekend.
Hopefully I'll be back next week.
But yeah, we really appreciate you guys and hope to have more 5G podcasts throughout the
year.