Welcome to Episode 170 of the GT on 5G. It's the latest Insight Scoop on everything 5G. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes, and it's brought to you by Moor Insights and Strategy. I'm Will Townsend, and joining me again this week is fellow analyst Ancel Sag, and we're going to get started with our inaugural 2023 5G Turkey Awards.

So it's the day after Thanksgiving. I had this this epiphany and and also had the epiphany to buy a prop. We're styling. What do you think? 

 It just really fits my gigantic head. It's choking me a little bit here, but.  

It fits the theme.  Yeah, so if you typically listen to the audio version of our podcast, you'll probably want to tune into the video version this week.

But let's get started. So we're going to talk about 6 of the biggest 5G turkeys in our opinion for this year. And the year's not even over yet. So there'll probably be a few more before we end the year. But my 1st Turkey award goes to Dish Wireless and how it's fumbled its 5G deployment plans. We've talked about this on numerous podcasts, my friend. 

There's been management shuffles.  It's just been a revolving door there, Charlie has sat on spectrum for many years. We talked about this, sale of spectrum, to T Mobile and, we're purchased from T Mobile and how they don't have the dollars to do it and boy, it was, DISH was so promising.

It seemed like everyone was involved in their efforts. Cloud native, fully disaggregated 5G deployment, but we've seen that accomplishing that objective is not simple. And and to complicate matters, this whole echo star thing coming together, but dude, I got to, put dish wireless right up there with 1 of the biggest 5G turkeys of the year.

So what do you think? 

I definitely agree, even though technically their network launched last year. Yeah, realistically, it wasn't really a nationwide launch until this year. I completely agree I would probably put dish.  Up there, as far as these turkeys go to reiterate some of the things you said, but also add to it.

They don't have enough money to buy spectrum that they supposedly need  that spectrum that was offered to them.  bEfore they actually launched, this has been a multi year effort to sit for them to have the spectrum  and it was supposed to go to them. Whenever T Mobile divested, right?  That's a huge problem.

And then also they really, to your point, the concept shuffling of people is not a good move. They had a pretty big hack that affected them as well.  I, I don't think that I think the Echo Star is a Hail Mary to be honest with you. I think that the Echo Star is like Plan G. 

Not plan a so I just think that we're at a point where  we were really hoping for a competitive 4th carry to enter the ring to put pressure on T Mobile, AT& T and Verizon, and I can't really say that they have. Or even  made a valiant effort, to be honest,  um, 

yeah, and this store, this saga or story is not over yet.

So it'll continue to play out, but yeah, interesting stuff. But let's go to your 1st Turkey award of the year. And I think we talked about this most recently on a prior podcast, but it's, you love kind of finding those conspiracy theories. This was your favorite one of the year, right?  

Yes. I would say the big 5G turkey is  all of them. 

 Because  I, I don't really know how these people rationalize these thoughts.  Holy crap. None of them came true.  I'll even take a piece out of this and... Take a bite. It's  I'm not a zombie, right? None of us. All right.  The reality is that people were afraid of technology that they don't understand.

I think that's a part of why. These things happen and education is important. And I think we are.  Probably going to get a new crop of conspiracy theories with 6G. I think we're a little too far out still.  But I have a strong feeling we'll get 6G conspiracy theories in the next year.  No, 

I agree.

I think, yeah, go ahead, sorry. I was 

going to say they'll probably find something in the number of the beast and start, 6G is 6 times as powerful and 6 times as power 

efficient. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. And, we've been talking about these conspiracy theories for a few years now.

We're well into, the throes of the deployment of 5G and, early on, my thought was, hey, millimeter wave is something new and, it's be much higher, And spectrum and the propagation and performance is pretty intense. But honestly, man, if we look back at where we're at, there hasn't been a ton of millimeter wave deployment.

It's just been in pockets for specialized use cases, like in stadium venues and that sort of thing. That was my theory a couple of years ago, but I just think to your point, it's just it's with any new technology. There's just going to be hysteria. 

You could almost align this with the 5G Turkey of millimeter wave. 

Okay. Yeah, that's a turkey, 

right? I don't think we technically listed that one as a turkey, but I do think millimeter wave and, venue operators failure to capitalize on the pandemic to deploy millimeter wave where it's going to be necessary or is necessary. And we don't have it today is very disappointing. 

So I will say I'll even when we edit this, I'll add this to millimeter wave as the. The real turkey with the millimeter that with the zombie issue because yeah, 5g message testing wasn't 5g, but ended up probably sending mostly over 5g. National message test was supposed to be a big 5g zombie apocalypse and it never happened.

But I do think millimeter wave is actually the real turkey here. And yeah, it's disappointing, but I do think we will get millimeter wave. In a lot of places, it just won't be everywhere. It will just be where it's necessary, which was supposed to be how it was supposed to be deployed to begin with  

for sure.

For sure. Let's go to my 2nd 5G Turkey award of 2023. and this is a horse that, I've beaten on numerous occasions. So this is the whole, FCC  and fighting over the possibility of 5G interference with commercial aircraft altimeters. And there were exclusion zones set up and, clearly, the transportation secretary and, and unfortunately at the FCC, there's just been such a lack of,  I won't say cohesive leadership, but it's been ebb and flow.

And we've talked about that on other podcasts as well. But, this gets, in my, in my opinion, a vote for one of the biggest 5G turkeys of the year. And at the end of the day, it was a non issue. Yeah.  Yeah,

the sad part is  it was a 5g turkey because  it didn't have to be right.

But it ended up being one because it impeded everybody's ability  to deploy c band i'll say it probably didn't impede t mobile much because they didn't have any a block right  definitely verizon  And I think  could have possibly delayed their rapid deployment. Obviously, it's mostly around airports,  but there's a lot of airports in America.

And  there's a lot of airports that are near where people live.  I do think it affected the experience and maybe set, AT& T and Verizon back 6 months at least. To your point, I do think we have a resolution and it was a very  I don't know how to put it. Oh and to a very heated debate. 

Yeah, all the way down to AT& T and Verizon placing, I believe, a full page out in the Wall Street Journal right before Christmas. If you remember, I think that was last year. Man, the year is just flown by for us. I feel  was it last year or this year? I thought it was Christmas of last year, but I could be mistaken.

We've talked about this topic so often on the podcast and I bet it raises its head again at some point before it's truly dead.  But let's go to your 2nd topic and. There was a use case that was really valued around around 5G and it really, it has applicability to both consumer and enterprise.

So you want to talk about that unmet expectation and that 5G Turkey.  Yeah, 

so this is something that is to your point more been more than a single year thing,  but it's really about 5G and AR. VR because, I covered the VR and AR space pretty closely  and,  um, if you look at all the AR and VR headsets that are out there, not a single one of them has 5g  period.

There was a headset that was announced like two years ago. That was supposed to have 5g built in, never came to fruition. And if you look at like the messaging and the industry talk 5g is less of a component of that. Even though for AR specifically to work the way it needs to  5G is going to be absolutely critical.

But the expectation is that 5G modems and 5G connectivity. are too power hungry and, PCB intensive to fit in a wearable. So right now the most industry is talking about having AR glasses tethered to your phone that might have a 5G connection. So that's the closest that we'll get, I think, in the near future to 5G with XR at all.

I don't really see meta implementing it in any of their headsets today. But something to consider is that there's going to be a shift eventually towards these immersive standards and technologies. And 1 day, we will get 5G in devices, but it's a very long ways away. And it will very likely happen in AR first, if only in AR just because AR, for it to really be useful, you've got to get out there and do it. 

 That said there's a chance, there's a chance that RedCap could improve that with integrations, but all the conversations I've had with people on the RedCap side they don't really see RedCap modems being implemented in AR VR headsets for the foreseeable future.  

Yeah, maybe it may be a latency and throughput thing.

I've seen some really interesting demos. I spent time with Verizon. This is probably 3 years ago at the alley, which is their 1 of their proof of concept labs and Chelsea and there was a medical startup that was using augmented reality and surgical, procedures and settings and they were talking about how, untethering.

That headset in an O. R. and using 5 G as that is that connection because obviously, medical imagery is really heavy weight and that sort of thing. And we might see some applicability to very specialized and vertical. Type use cases, but yeah I'm super surprised that, this has become, one of our Turkey recipients this year, because I would have certainly thought, all the talk and the excitement was around, Hey, bringing edge and bringing next reality together with 5g to really create some powerful use cases.

And it just hasn't happened. And to your point, you're the expert in the firm around mixed reality. There's, doesn't seem to be anything over the horizon. Yeah, it's interesting.  But let's go to my third and final turkey of the year.  And I'm going to talk about Rakuten, not the mobile network operator division of Rakuten, but actually Symphony.

And so we've talked about this on prior podcasts. Rakuten has been a very early poster child, further ahead of  deploying highly disaggregated open. Cellular networks than that of dish. They bloodied, their toes and their knees and that sort of thing over, over the over time.

But they hoped, about a year and a half ago to pull those lessons, those learnings together and help other operators that were embarking on VRAN and Open RAN. Simplify and streamline their operations and somebody, it got off to a pretty solid start. They had, 1 big mobile network operator that had committed a significant amount of dollars to doing this that deployment you know.

It got implemented, but more of, proof of concept, but then flash forward recently to this year. Basically, something he was unable to find any additional customers. There was a complete reorganization. Tarek ended up leaving the company they've appointed new leadership and it just seems like things have stalled.

I haven't really heard a lot of new news out of the symphony group and, some world is a part of that as well. And hey, give them credit for doing this, but I was very doubtful because,  As you and I know, we spent a lot of time with mobile network operators, not only in the United States, but in Europe and in Asia. 

These are very competitive companies. Just look at when John was year was with T Mobile and, like, all the ribbing that he pointed towards AT& T and Verizon.  It's very highly competitive and, a lot of, a lot of these mobile network operators and communication service providers they're vying for a competitive advantage.

And I thought, hey, it was, it was a great effort, but certainly this becomes. Probably my 3rd, 5G turkey of the year. Docomo, I spent time with Docomo last week when I was in Tokyo at the NTT R& D forum they have launched a platform called OREX, O R E X, which which hopes to do replicate what Symphony tried to do.

With blueprints, in a focus around open round and building an ecosystem of different partners. Dell technologies is doing the same thing, but certainly, and I'll add open around as a runner up to a 5G Turkey award. We haven't seen the adoption and open around that.

I think everyone hoped and I've shared lots of theories on prior podcasts. They're different ways to get to market with open around and they're, they're different solutions that are being provided by the traditional infrastructure providers as well as software only companies, startups and those sorts of things.

So there are lots of different paths to get there where I do think open around. Thank you. Will play a significant role will be in private cellular deployments LTE has enjoyed. I think great momentum. We still haven't seen the adoption around 5G. I think that's going to change.

And I think I've predicted that on other podcasts. I think as we move into 2024.  I think you're going to see more 5G network adoption with Cisco out there offering solutions, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, Dell Technologies, as well as other companies like Celona and NTT that are focused on it there.

At the end of the day, sorry, Rakuten Symphony and SunWorld, I've got to give you my 3rd and final 5G Turkey award. But hey, you know what I think it was a valiant effort. But at the end of the day,  what the company did was just reshuffle management and they pushed out who I think he's a real visionary.

And I think, he's landed at a Ramco, I believe. He's he's in the Middle East, and he's helping with their effort. And so it'll be interesting to see what does next year, but  I'll leave it, but I'll throw it back to you for final thoughts before we go to your 3rd and final 

Turkey.  Yeah, I agree with this take.

I think it's quite clear that they missed the mark because Tarek is gone.  I think that was,  that was their indication that things are not good and that they want change. But I gotta be honest with you, I don't think getting rid of Tarek is the solution. I just think that's the the Japanese way of managing through a crisis.

Not even the Japanese, but the Japanese business way of managing through a crisis.   And yeah, I think they've obviously spent a lot of money on this and lost a lot of money on it. So they want results, which I get,  but I think they could have handled it better. And I think that's the reality of the situation.

And to your point, it wasn't really what people had hoped it would be. And they didn't really get enough customers, which is a good point. I also think that maybe this effort was a little late. In terms of the, the uptake of 5G networks, that said, there are still lots of 5G networks that have to be deployed.

So there's still an opportunity for this to be successful down the road. But it very much has not been successful yet. And I agree with that.  

Yeah. Like I mentioned, and it'll be interesting to see as they move into next year what the adoption in the uptake will be with their platform, because again, they're following a similar recipe that Symphony was following, but let's move to your 3rd and final topic.

And you want to talk about go. And we have talked about go and prior podcasts. Yeah.  

Yes, so GoGo gets my final 5G turkey  because they were supposed to have launched their 5G service  in 2021 when they first announced it. Yeah. Now, near the end of 2023,  and their service is still not available.

Nothing. Supposedly, they have deployed the coverage component of their 5G network,  but they have not deployed. The in plane equipment 

yet. Isn't that important? It isn't  . 

bUt the reason for that is because they have had multiple chip delays Yeah. Due to outsourcing chip design to a firm that was probably designed to save them money,  but Sounds like ended up costing them a lot of money.

Yeah. And yeah, I'm honestly, I'm surprised they never worked with a Qualcomm or a media tech to  get a custom silicon solution. Media tech literally has a portion of their business that does this.  If they weren't happy with what call calls offering, they could have gone to media tech.

beCause this is a terrestrial solution, it's not like they're doing satellite.  NTN or anything like that, and it wouldn't be fast enough. But yeah, we are paying more for in plain services because there's less competition  because this service isn't available. Hopefully it will come out in 2024.

The expectation is mid 2024. I think that at this point go is  not a go but we'll be next year.  No, yeah, exactly. But, they're a well known entity. They're a well known quantity and,  it's just really disappointing that they, they continue to 

slip. 

We do need, we do need competition. And what I'm hoping as we see the maturity of what Starlink is doing and AST Space Mobile, that there'll be different options that leverage low Earth orbit as well. But, time will tell there. But.  Hey, man, it's been this is a fun sort of concept.

I'm looking forward to doing this every year. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving and anything special.  

Not really went to my mom's house. Family gathering. She almost messed up the Turkey this year.  Last year, she actually messed it up. We did have Turkey, but we also had backup chickens.

And my wife and I made a pie and brought that over. So  it was, a pretty traditional Thanksgiving, just spending time with family and friends. 

Nice. Nice. I did the same. So I spent the 1st, half of the day with my good friend, Leslie. I worked with it down 20 years ago and. We're still friends and her family and then we went over to my brothers in the evening and we saw lots of cousins and and ants and we had a great time.

I stopped trying to do turkeys many years ago because I always screw them up. And so we would just order from, which is a very large grocery chain here in Texas based in. San Antonio, they do a great job, but I do smoke a duck and I grind it for the first time and it came out fantastic. And so I was a hero with with my youngest daughter.

He spent some time with me, but it's, Thanksgiving is just all about spending time with with family and friends. And it sounds like you had a great time and I did too. And we hope that our viewers and listeners also had a great Thanksgiving and we hope that you've enjoyed. This special 2023 inaugural 5G Turkey award edition.

So with that, Anshul, why don't you take us home? 

Absolutely. I'll also add, we hope that you all have a safe and productive Black Friday, whether you choose to  buy electronics and I'll throw this out there. Don't buy sub 500 laptops. You will regret it. I promise 

you. Yeah. I read your tweet on that, or it was a LinkedIn post.

And I would encourage viewers and listeners to go check out Anshul's handle because solid analysis there. Don't get suckered in with the low price 

point.  Absolutely. We hope our viewers and listeners on this week's topics. Interesting. If anyone out there would like to provide insights on a specific 5G topic for a future podcast,  Please reach out to us on social media.

Will is at whale. tech and I'm at Autral Sog. We hope you have a great weekend and please tune in again next week. And don't forget to rate us and subscribe.