Welcome to episode 165 of the G2 on 5G. It's our latest Insight Scoop on everything 5G. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes, and it's brought to you by Moor Insights and Strategy. I'm Will Townsend, and joining me for a second time this week is fellow analyst Anshul Sag. Let's get started with my first topic, and I want to talk about John Deere, and they've announced plans to deploy a private 5G network in their factory in Brazil. So this was a story. I was, I believe it was a mobile world live story, but actually I met with Jason Wallen. He's the principal architect of infrastructure and operations at John Deere. I met him at mobile world Congress on my last day there, and we spent about 30 minutes talking about what they're doing here. They've deployed LTE. And many other manufacturing facilities that produce those famous green and yellow combines and tractors and my riding lawnmower. I actually bought a riding lawnmower. My 1st and it's a John Deere. And I think Jason was happy when I mentioned that. But what they're doing is. Factory automation industry 4. 0, whatever you want to call it. And in Brazil is going to be a test bed. And if you're not familiar with Brazil it's a country that's typically been very protectionist. They impose a lot of tariffs if you bring finished goods into that country. And so obviously John Deere is manufacturing and country to avoid all of that. And they're going to lean heavily into private 5g to to automate. Those capabilities. We talked about a number of different use cases involving computer vision and and using smart cameras to inspect welds and they can actually use sonic tests as well, which I didn't know to test the world. As metal is being welded, the sound that's emitted can indicate whether the world is going to hold or not long term. But. I think, again, it really showcases what I believe to be for private 5G the killer application, which is manufacturing automation. And I'll mention that I may not be able to get them to sponsor a visit for me to Brazil. But I do next year plan to travel to some of their facilities to see what they're doing. We also talked about autonomy for its larger equipment. Today they've used GPS to do that. But they are looking at cellular connectivity, LTE, and eventually 5G to do that. But one of the challenges, obviously, is that when you think about it many large, ranching and farming operations are in rural parts of the United States. And then The same could be said in other parts of the world as well, where, you're not going to have the same density of subscribers and you're not going to have the right cell tower. Who knows? Maybe you're going to talk a little bit about space mobile. I typically do, but leveraging terrestrial spectrum and public networks and satellite could could also tie things together. But I don't know if you caught this news, but any thoughts. Okay. I did not catch this news. However, a topic I chose not to include for today's series of topics does relate to this, and that's that Malaysia's public oil company is also deploying a 5G network in Malaysia. I think I wrote this paper two weeks ago, and more and more, big... Enormous enterprises, multinational enterprises are adopting private 5G networks to enable, either rapid manufacturing, a disaggregated communications, proof telemetry. There's so many different things, last week we talked about, the the Ryder Cup. It just seems like private 5G is really taking off in a lot of ways. Yeah, the problem is that it's so invisible to people that they're not even aware that it's a thing which is, a blessing and a curse because it's a blessing that it works so well that it's invisible, but it's a curse because it's invisible. It's really important for people like you and I to publicly communicate all these different 5G private networks that are enabling new use cases that otherwise just wouldn't exist. Yeah, what's really great about private deployments is that there's no non standalone. So you can deploy 5G core and and 5G ran and really realize the true promise of 5G. And I think on prior podcasts, I've spoken to the fact that private cellular in general, hasn't seen the adoption curve to match the hype. Around 5G in general, and I have speculated in the past that was based on multiple paths to market and that sort of thing, as a service, as a total solution, but I really believe as the public mobile network operators, they begin to deploy standalone more aggressively on public networks that I think is going to also drive momentum and interest in private as well. There'll be that kind of that carry over because truly at the end of the day. Standalone unlocks the true promise of 5G you can't get to network slicing. You and I have talked about that on multiple podcasts without standalone. And so I think it's great. And and I think on other podcasts, I've also mentioned the fact that I do believe that 2024 is really going to be the year for private 5G. And I think, there's a huge install base of LTE. For many use cases and applications advanced will do the job, but really where, standalone 5g will shine will be with that ultra low latency for very tactile control of robotics and automation through manufacturing facilities and also mentioned transportation and logistics. For things in motion 5 G's superpowers really mate and match well with those use cases. But let's move to your 1st topic. And typically, I'm the 1 talking about a space mobile, but I did catch this news that there was an article in Gizmodo and there were some other. Some other writing around this, but I think concerns around AST SpaceMobile's BlueWalker 3 satellite that's currently in the air and that there's concern that it might be shining too brightly. Yeah, so I tracked down what the source of all these stories was because I was curious. I first saw that, this object in the bright in the sky is the brightest object you might see in the night sky or blah, blah, blah. I was like, okay, with your naked eye to not like, I was like, okay, I'm going to go and look into this deeper. And then I realized it was AST Space Mobile's Blue Walker 3. And then I like dug deeper and found that there's an article in the journal nature, which is a, scientific journal. And it references. It's a study by different astronomers and specifically I think it quotes some astronomers who found that it outshines 99 percent of the stars visible from a dark location on Earth. Yeah, and that story is essentially a, it's a publication that's in the journal nature. And it talks about the high optical brightness of Blue Walker 3. So it's a explicit call out of the AST space mobile satellite talking about how large constellations. of LEO pose significant challenges to ground based astronomy. So this is like a a battleground between astronomers and people looking to increase, cellular coverage around the world. They specifically called Blue Walker 3 saying that it's a phase of 10 array with a launch vehicle adapter and the peak brightness of the satellite reaching apparent magnitude of 0. 4 which I don't know what that actually means. And that this new satellite is one of the brightest objects in the night sky and that the LVA, which is the large vehicle adapter, reach an apparent V magnitude, V band magnitude of 5. 5 Four times brighter than the current International Astronomical Union Recommendation of Magnitude. Clearly they are unhappy with how bright this is. And there's a pretty strong community in support of AST SpaceMobile and it's Blue Walker 3. But it will be interesting to see how, the industry works with. Astronomers. Because I think, there have been similar concerns around Starlink and how it affects people's ability to see the night sky. And I think these issues will only continue to grow as more constellations go up, which we'll be talking about later. And my third topic because Amazon is starting to launch its low Earth orbit satellites. So we're going to be having more objects in the sky. This article also talks about space debris. And breakaway debris and how that might be a concern as well. The interesting thing is that AST SpaceMobile already responded to this Nature article inside the Nature article itself and said that they're working with NASA and astronomy groups to address these concerns. And then, and even the art. Then the article in nature talks about SpaceX and its space satellites and how it surprised astronomers then. I think there's still room for conversation and things like that. But I will say that, a s t space, mobile satellite is probably one of the largest objects in the sky. Yeah. And maybe there's gonna be some kind of coatings that they apply to future satellites. To reduce the brightness of the satellite in the sky. Yeah. Yeah. I read that as well. And I guess 1 of 1 of the challenges is that when Blue Walker threes antenna array is fully deployed, it is considerably larger than anything that Starlink or Amazon is planning to put in the sky. I read the Gizmodo article, it was a clickbait, headline and and, I tweeted, something out on that. But, AST SpaceMobile, their plans, once they go into production, you have to understand BlueWalker 3 is a prototype. When they go into production, their plan is to have about a hundred. Satellites in the air. Now that compares to tens of thousands that are planned that Elon Musk is planning to launch with Starlink. And then, and then we're going to, we're going to save a project Cooper your for your final topic. We'll talk about Amazon as well. But space debris is going to have to be something that the space force, the space agency. Yeah. That division of the FCC that has been set up they're going to have to focus on the oversight. And oh, by the way, I read some news this week that that there were some current concerns with dish and clutter and, satellites burning up on reentry and starlings even admitted that they've lost satellites. They can't account for that. Probably burned up in the atmosphere. As this low Earth orbit space race continues to heat up, there is going to have to be oversight and regulation, but. Yeah. At the end of the day, the ability to use satellite communications to help bridge the digital divide, I think, far outweighs how many objects we put in the sky, but we just have to be good now space citizens. And manage this and ensure safety and, and observation as well. That's an incredible area of research that continues with these long range telescopes and that sort of thing. But. Let's move to my 2nd topic and I want to talk about Nokia and they're adding some new solutions to its private 5G as a service portfolio. And I've spoken with about Nokia on numerous podcasts and they were really the 1st traditional infrastructure provider. To really aggressively embrace private networking, and so they're extending that into as a service. And what I like about it is that they're creating a solution for smaller enterprises because oftentimes what Nokia delivers is, very carrier grade and it's very it's multi segmented and that sort of thing for. For very sophisticated use cases. What they're doing is they're taking their digital automation cloud solution and they're doing a more, what they call a more compact version of that for the smaller deployments. It's going to leverage no surprise CVRS spectrum and and they're partnering with companies like DXC technology, future technologies, Gray bar and trilogy next generation to do this. I like the fact that they're employing an ecosystem approach. And certainly those integrators, those companies that I mentioned have a pretty decent footprint within the I. T. distribution channel. And so that's going to be key to making this all successful is Nokia can't for, smaller, organizations, the volume of those deployments are going to go up. There's no way that Nokia could do that on a direct basis. And so I. I really like the fact that they're going to leverage an ecosystem of integrators and partners to go do that. So I don't know if you caught the news, but any thoughts or comments? I did catch the news. But I don't really have any specific thoughts because it just feels like an expansion of their portfolio. And just, adding more services to, to address market demands. But yeah, nothing really earth shattering there for me. Yeah, that's cool. I think for the, for Nokia. It's just going to provide scale and more and more revenue opportunity upside for them. So that's my, my kind of top level take on it. But let's go to your 2nd topic and you want to talk about and a 5 G smart helmet. What is that all about? Yeah, at t worked with Gallo de, I don't know how to pronounce it. Yeah. Gallo de University. It's actually a private university for the deaf and blind. And they worked with them to develop a five G connected football helmet that allows for on-field communications with student athletes. And essentially allows them to communicate through A. S. L. And be able to get, commands from their coaches through their helmet. And they said that this helmet will actually be used this weekend in the game against Hilbert College. That's really exciting cause it, improves access to more people using 5G. And this university has been in place since 1894. So they're really like a, they have a long history of. Of working to improve inclusiveness and on top of that, the quarterback will be wearing the helmet will receive the plays in augmented reality on a digital display located within the visor. So it's like an actual, HMD helmet. And then on top of all that, AT& T will be donating new helmets to the university. For the team. So all the players get new helmets, plus they're donating 500, 000 to the school's football program. So this is a really cool story where, AT& T is helping with 5G and augmented reality to, improve communication between the quarterback and the coach, probably the offensive coordinator realistically. But yeah they're talking about how it eliminates a gap for deaf and hard of hearing athletes to be able to play football and, maybe one day we'll have a a star quarterback in the NFL who's deaf. But that gets all this plays through the OC sending them to a display in his headset because realistically. Quarterbacks are not really about hearing, they're more about sight, right? And seeing the play that's going on around them. Part of their job is to tune out the crowd, right? It would be really interesting to see how this helps players progress and increase access. And maybe this ends up even helping players who will have hearing, but maybe can't hear anything during the game. And would be able to get plays clearly communicated to them through a headset. I'm not sure how long it'll take for this to waterfall to the NFL, but there's a possibility this could this is technology as possible. And this is an extension of a lot of the cool things that AT& T is already doing to improve access and inclusivity. I recently discovered that AT& T powers. The city of San Diego's library program where they hand out hotspots that you can check out. Yeah, they offer it as a service and it's powered by AT& T and AT& T branded hotspots. This is just a cool thing for AT& T to be doing and investing in. And working with the community. I agree. And it's really exciting to see an application that's leveraging 5G to provide, inclusivity like you were mentioning, and, today, the NFL is already leveraging 5G for on field communication. So this extends that capability even further. And I'm glad you touched on some of the the initiatives that AT& T is focused on, like with San Diego. And I've spent time with the management team in Dallas. And I learned earlier this year that they are, they're making investments through nonprofits to focus on bridging the digital divide. There's lots of funding out there that, I've talked about in prior podcasts, but also focusing on digital literacy as well putting the devices in the hands of people that need them because it's, so much of it is chicken and egg and, it's an impoverished area, a region. Underserved community. You need more than just, deploying the infrastructure, you've gotta provide the devices as well. You have to prime the pump there. At and t's doing a lot of great things there. And yeah, I, kudos to them for taking what's already being deployed and, the N F L and then taking that down into the collegiate ranks and really allowing student athletes that have disabilities vision and hearing disabilities. To participate because that's so huge for the college experience. My youngest just graduated from college and she was very involved in extracurriculars and that's that was really important as she was looking for her 1st off that she could demonstrate that she had those extracurriculars. So I think it's great. But let's go to my 3rd and final topic. I'm going to hit this really quickly, but I want to talk about reliance and India. And recently they've taken out a couple of credit facilities that are quite large. This week, there was an announcement that they had secured a 2Billion dollar credit facility and that follows on the heels of another 2Billion dollar credit facility. That was established several, several weeks ago. And this is all basically to focus on deploying infrastructure. Borrowing money so that they can get the 5G, hardware, deployed. I think, 4 billion. That's a lot of money, but, in the United States, the the public network operators have gone on record stating that the deployments just hardware alone, not even spectrum are north of 20 billion us dollars. And you think of India, India is a huge market. They have a huge population. They have to cover 4 billion, is a lot of money, but in the big scheme of things, relatively small compared to those numbers that I just shared. But you also have to remember to that reliance has demonstrated that they lean very heavily into disaggregated infrastructure. Open RAN like core network solutions that leverage common off the shelf servers with software from companies like Athenet and Druid and that sort of thing. I think it's interesting, but it continues to point to reliance as being very dedicated to that market and and deploying their next generation network. So what do you think before we move to your 3rd and final topic? I think it's interesting because they have the cash. So they're clearly choosing to take credit where they can. And that's probably because they're doing all a lot of other things and they probably want to have as much capital as possible available to them. To, build out their network because they're not done building out their network. They're still very actively deploying that. So I think in their situation, they want to have as much capital available to them as possible. And a big component of that is taking out credit facilities like this one. I'm excited to see what the final geo network will look like. I truly believe that they will probably be, one of the world leaders in deploying 5G completely and enabling both private and public applications of 5G that are considered to be next generation. And I think that Geo has clearly had a plan in place and they're executing on it now. Yeah, I'm hoping to see, the fruits of that probably next year. But yeah, they're very aggressive, and I think they've made up a lot of time not to their own fault, really I think a lot of that comes down to the Indian government spectrum auction. They were delayed. Remember, we talked about that. They were really late. So I think GEO has planned accordingly, and they seem to be executing very aggressively. And I hope to see those fruits next year. And I think we're already starting to see a lot of momentum moving in their direction with all the things that are happening in China and with the slowdown and the restrictions, I think India will become the new market of choice for growth in 5G. Yeah, no, I agree. And reliance is just demonstrated that they're very disruptive. So they're coming in. They're making these investments and they are delivering, I think, extreme value relative to some of the traditional incumbents like Bartier tell and others, but let's move to your 3rd and final topic. And you're going to double down on Leo and I've been following, Amazon's designs here and you want to talk about. Where they're headed and their plans around launching to prototype Leo satellites. Yeah, so Amazon as, has their creeper. I actually don't know how to pronounce it correctly. Yeah, I mispronounced it earlier too. And it's their lower orbit satellite system, which will eventually be made up of 3200, actually 3, 236 satellites. Yeah, full constellation. And they will be launching the first two satellites today at around 2 p. m. Eastern time. Very soon, hopefully we'll get this out before they launch, but basically it's their first two satellites that are going to be their test satellites. They expect these ones to, help them figure out a lot of the next phase, which will be next year, where they'll be launching two, two big volleys of satellites that will help them build their beta network and they will be spreading their launches across Ariane, Blue Origin, and ULA. ULA, I believe, is the one who's delivering these first two satellites. Yeah, first half of next year, there'll be launching enough satellites to actually launch a beta service at the end of next year. So they're saying that it will take a total of 6 more years to actually fully launch this constellation, which means that by mid 2029, they will actually be ready with a complete constellation. And that's why they obviously had to split across three different launch partners, but as you'll notice there is no mention of SpaceX. So they are not using SpaceX to launch this service. I wouldn't think they would, man, because, they, Jeff's got Blue Origin, right? Sure. But, there's, there's only so many satellite launches available. And SpaceX has a lot of them, and they have reusable rockets. So they, so does Blue Origin, but SpaceX is ahead of the curve on a lot of ways, and as a result of that, it's cheaper to launch with them as well. But they are competitors I don't think they really want to work with a competitor to launch their service. If they don't have to the only other details I have here are that their LEO will be using ground stations operating at 17. 8 to 18. 6 gigahertz and 28. 6 to 29. 1 gigahertz. So those are the frequencies that they'll be using and they're working with Vodafone on this network as well as Verizon. Verizon is a partner for them. It will be really interesting to see how this shakes out next year as the beta service starts to come to fruition. I assume they'll probably be covering the U. S. first and foremost and expanding to global coverage later on. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. So now, we're going to have to if you want to call it fixed wireless access, satellite earth services that, both both Amazon and SpaceX Starlink want to monetize versus ASD space mobile serving as. The middleware, I'll also mention, because it's relative I met or I had a call recently with the CEO of saddle light. O. T. and that's a company that we've we've talked about on prior podcast. Jamie was talking about how. They're very discreetly focused on narrow band cases and using satellite communication. So it's really interesting to see, like, all of these companies coming into the fold and. And how things are shaking out. And at the end of the day, with Amazon wanting to put, 2 or 3000 satellites in the air with Starlink with ASD space, mobile satellite OT. There's going to be a lot of stuff flying around lower orbit, right? So it'll just it'll be really interesting, but I think it's exciting. The opportunity to close the digital divide is huge from my perspective, but it's been another great podcast our second this week, but why don't you take us home, Arsham. Yeah, absolutely. We hope our viewers and listeners found this week's topics interesting. If anyone out there would like to provide insights on a specific 5G topic for a future podcast, please reach out to us on social media. Will is at Whale Town Tech, and I'm at Onshell SOG. We hope you have a great weekend, and please tune in again next week, and don't forget to rate and subscribe.