Welcome to episode 163 of the G2 on 5G. It's the latest inside scoop on everything 5G. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes, and it's brought to you by Moor Insights and Strategy. I'm Will Townsend, and joining me again this week is Federal Analyst Anshel Sag from New York City. So let's get started.

You and I have been buddies for Both on the road. I just got back from London. So if I sound a little tired, that's my excuse, but there was some big news and we didn't want our listeners and viewers to be wanting for our 5g podcast. But let me jump into it. So big news, AST Space Mobile and AT& T, as well as Vodafone conducted the first 5g broadband session from space.

And this is big, both voice and data. And it represents a huge milestone. With respect to satellite communications and the opportunity to bridge the digital divide. It's funny, I posted this update. I got a lot of feedback on this. I always do. 1 of the comments was around just the size of the array of the space mobile low Earth orbit satellites and and I had a, I had a pretty spirited discussion around.

What they're doing. There are eventual plans to launch 100 satellites versus Starlink, which is doing 10, on the neighborhood of thousands of satellites. And, from my perspective, the difference really is around the fact that ASD space mobile wants to be that middleware that infrastructure.

That supports monetization for mobile network operators versus Starlink and some others that want to monetize the service. I know you've got some comments here. I would love to hear them. 

Yeah, 

I think this has really shown, I think a lot of people in the industry that AST SpaceMobile. Is a bigger player in the industry than I think people realize.

I think it's really enabled them to make it a clear position as a leader in the space, but also that their technology works and that it's not just, a pie in the sky dream. And I think they may have been one of the first in Europe. To make this capable. Obviously, maybe not in North America, but it sounds like, they're operating both in Europe and in North America.

So they clearly have, that global coverage. I think a lot of people are expecting from satellite companies. And I'll also add we also learned recently that Huawei's satellite connectivity is empowered by China mobile. I think it's trying to mobile might be trying to telecom, but they're using geo for theirs.

I wouldn't necessarily expect to see yeah. A s t working with a with a Huawei necessarily. Yeah. But it was just something that I thought would be a good fit considering that we're talking about, satellite connectivity and smartphones. 

No, it's super relevant and it's interesting.

So the relationship with with a s t space mobile is with a number of mobile network operators. I think they're over 40. And we've talked about Rakuten. Obviously this is Vodafone. And what was really interesting about this demo, was that it was conducted in a completely dead zone in Hawaii, and and that connectivity was between Hawaii and Spain with Vodafone.

It's exciting, to see what they're doing here and really enabling device support that doesn't require, any modification. And it was a Samsung device and, Samsung has been participating in these prior demos as well. The other milestones around. I believe it was an LTE voice call and so I think, they're making great strides and great progress and certainly a space mobile, they, they have a lot of work to do.

They've only got a few birds in the air, but, their goal again, over time is to have 100. And, but that's, relative to SpaceX that I think today has 000 satellites in the air and they have designs to launch more in the future. Yeah, I know it's super exciting. And I think, there are other satellite companies that are wanting to mimic.

What AST Space Mobile is doing, but it's super, super exciting. But with that, let's go to your first topic. And you want to provide an update on something that we talked about and we took a victory lap on around Apple and some of the stumbles they've had with developing their own 5G modem. So I'll let you take it away.

Yeah this thing keeps evolving. It's really interesting because I believe this was a Wall Street Journal story if I'm not mistaken. And they basically went out and talked to a lot of people who were involved in Apple's modem development from the early on phase as well as. Current and you know got a lot of sources I think there were some things that may have been missed in the Analysis that I think would have been valuable like talking more about how intel was partnering with apple And supplying them and failed to do so Which eventually caused Intel to sell office division to Apple and how Intel was continually failing to deliver and continually failing to compete with what Qualcomm was offering.

And eventually Apple dumped them. So that's, I think a really valuable thing to know when you see the Apple struggling to deliver its own modem, IP. I feel now at this point, they're probably, pretty deep into developing their own IP. But I think one really crucial thing that I think some people are missing is Apple needs to be spending more money on wireless R and D if it wants to contribute to the IP that exists within the standard and to potentially pay less royalties.

Because even once they dump Qualcomm to the, to the curb, they're still gonna end up having to pay royalties for IP. Yeah. And developing new IP is a good way to avoid having to pay out because you need to cross license and, do a lot of things and save some money. But, yeah, I think it's really interesting.

1 of the most interesting lines that I saw in that article. I think a lot of people really attached to was the fact that, some insiders were saying that apples modem is. Three years behind Qualcomm's designs and, they did some testing and verifying last year and they saw that, the size, power, performance were all underwhelming.

And they decided to delay, which is what we talked about last year when we knew that Apple was going to delay their modem. And then once again, we hear again that they're delaying it again. Wireless technologies are not easy. 5G modems are especially hard, especially global 5G modems, like with what Apple needs to deliver.

Qualcomm is uniquely positioned to deliver that. I also believe MediaTek is a viable option, but I think that Apple very much wants a partner that can scale to the size that they have. And I'm not sure MediaTek's modem business is there yet. But, it is TSMC, so we'll see what happens.

I will say that. There's a possibility that they could be having talks already with media tech. I don't have any inside knowledge, but I would be surprised if they weren't. And yeah, I just think that this was a really interesting report because it says that Apple's modem is five years or three years behind Qualcomm's 5G.

And that's a pretty significant number when you consider how fast the mobile industry moves. 

It's a huge number when you just equate it and technology, right? So I equate, 1 year and technology is the equivalent to 10 years in another industry. You can call it dog years and that sort of thing.

And, Apple has a history of being very closed. That's beneficial because it ensures very high compatibility. Yeah, with respect to hardware and apps and that sort of thing. But I really think, with respect to developing a 5G modem that they're finally realizing that to your point, it's difficult.

It's not easy. And a partnership, even with Qualcomm, who they've had a very storied history with is necessary so that they can remain viable. We've seen the damage that the the entity listing has done to Huawei and prevented them from accessing technology and that sort of thing.

And certainly, iPhone is, a very formidable, platform. When you compare it to Android, and and they're going to continue to have to, maintain a leadership position and, a partnership as far as it comes, with with 5G is going to be, completely necessary to their success long term.

Just my personal opinion there, but again, my jet lag is kicking in here. I'm going to try to struggle through this and we'll get through our podcast, but I want to go to my 2nd topic this week and I'll be at a mobile world Congress, Las Vegas next week. And be doing a number of things there. 1 of them is spending time with T Mobile.

I'm a judge for their unconventional awards. This is for T Mobile for business. And I am a judge with 3 others, and it includes, 2 industry luminaries as well as a a T Mobile executive. And, we're going to really recognize, very unconventional thinking and. Thank you. The way that municipalities and companies in general are leveraging and leaning into 5G technology.

So I'm super excited about that. But, as far as my expectations, no surprise. I think is going to be on the forefront. There's been a lot of discussion around AI and its application to telecom and how that can improve not only the subscriber experience, but provide efficiencies within telecommunications operations.

I think AI will be a big highlight. At the event. And I know that you've got a conflict and you won't be able to attend this year, unfortunately, but I just want to get your, your thoughts and insights on what you're expecting to see 

at the show. I have multiple conflicts actually.

I would love to be in three places at once, but unfortunately I can't be. So I will also be missing the Oculus Connect event while they'll be announcing the Quest three. But sorry, medic connect. I forgot. Oculus is dead. But basically, I think we're going to see a lot more talk about sand alone because 18 T and Verizon are going to really make a big push next year.

I believe now that they're 5G networks are. Near completion in terms of spectrum availability and rollout. And I just think you're going to see standalone, 18 team Verizon are going to join the T Mobile symphony talking about standalone and what that enables. 

Yeah, no, I'd agree with you.

Standalone should be huge. I think we're also going to hear a lot about private networking and specifically, double clicking into private networking. I'm expecting to hear some things from industry leaders like Salona and that sort of thing around neutral host. That, neutral host is really emerging as a very compelling private.

5G use case, and I got a little bit of exposure to that when I was with circuit with the Americas, about a week ago before I was in London last week at connected Britain. But I think it'll be an interesting event. Too bad. I won't see a buddy, but, I'll make sure that I'm on our next podcast that I provide a full sort of read out on what I found compelling, and there'll probably be a Forbes article that follows there as well.

But let's go to your 2nd topic. You want to talk about Qualcomm's Wi Fi day and 5G fixed wireless access. 

I attended Qualcomm's Wi Fi day last week and, the. Announcement came out this week, so I was able to get an idea. This was a lot of Wi Fi 7 technology. So obviously, this is not necessarily relevant to 5G in a certain way.

But the thing is that a lot of what Qualcomm's talking about with Wi Fi 7 is related to fixed wireless and service providers. So there was a lot of talk about 1, Their 5G fixed wireless platform and how that, can deliver multi gig performance to the user without having to dig any fiber, but also leveraging Wi Fi 7 along with 5G in these fixed wireless gateways to enable new use cases and kind of change the landscape.

They also talked about some fiber related stuff with 10 gig with a 10 gig gateway that has Wi Fi 7 in it. Which I thought was really interesting. But that's not necessarily a 5g application, but it was just interesting to hear them talking about all the different ways that wifi seven is being utilized.

And one thing to consider is also that they're looking to reduce the latency of wifi to enable more 5g use cases like AR and VR. There are just some really interesting things that are going on with wifi seven that I think will compliment what's going on with 5g and make. Both more useful to active developers and users.

Well, 

And correct me if I'm wrong, but there, there's a lot of leverage between, next generation of Wi Fi and, the 5G, 3GPP standard, right? From an architectural standpoint there's some leverage, right? Between the 2. So that makes sense. Wi 

Fi 7 finally takes into account The ability to aggregate spectrum for the first time, right?

So you can actually aggregate 2.4 with five gigahertz or five gigahertz with six or multiple bands within five gigahertz. If you're in China where there is no six gigahertz for wifi. . So that is called m l o. And that is a really interesting technology 'cause it gives you up to 320 megahertz of spectrum depending on, what your spectrum.

Roadmap looks like, or what your availability is in your region. So there are some things, but in general, I think they're very complimentary to each other and it'll be a great thing to see that momentum grow into next year. 

I agree, I think, 5G and Wi Fi are better together. I think I've talked about that on prior podcasts.

But let me hit my 3rd I want to talk about Ericsson and they acquired Vonage a few years ago. I'm not exactly sure when, but it was a big announcement. It was, 6 billion dollars. And, at 1st on the surface, it was like, Vonage, you think of IP phones and why would that fit into Ericsson's, wheelhouse and.

What, Ericsson saw from a value perspective with Vonage was its platform and its capability to bring programmability into what Ericsson is doing from an infrastructure standpoint. And Ericsson set a vision of offering, programmability within its network and really without was designed to do is really spur developer innovation.

And, provide a sandbox to develop the next, compelling 5g application. And flash forward, recently this week. Ericsson announced a tie up with Deutsche Telekom, basically Deutsche Telekom is signing up, to provide basically an API app store scenario and there was a light reading article that was written about this and, the kind of the headline on it was around.

Why, it's taking Ericsson this long to do it. They've only got, one operator signed up. Is it a failure? And I think, what, from my perspective, broadly thinking about it is that, Ericsson's vision to make its network programmable is sound and that's going to spur developer innovation.

That's going to accelerate. That next killer application, I've often talked about how right sharing was birth, with with GPS and with, very predictable connectivity from a throughput standpoint and so I think, mornings to be done along these lines to, to spur innovation.

Now, obviously, Erickson is not a nonprofit company, and they paid 6 billion to acquire Vonage. So you could argue that on the surface, are they getting the right, return on investment, maybe not in the short term but this could be a longer term play for Erickson. So I'm not sure if you caught Ian Morse's article, but would love to get your input on it.

I 

did not sorry, I did not catch his article, but I would agree with your assessment that I don't think in the short term that it's been realized. I think that it will probably take a lot longer to make that assessment. And I hope that. Erickson is patient enough and their investors are impatient enough to allow that to realize itself long term.

But I will say, it's still pretty good fit. I'm not sure it's as good as the fit of, say Cisco with Splunk, but it's a good, I still think it's a pretty good fit. I think the Cisco Splunk thing is like a marriage made in heaven. But yeah I don't have any opinions in the short term.

I do think it's hard to justify any kind of investment when it's that big in the short term, but in the long term, I think, a few years, I think maybe we'll have a better idea. 

That's a good point. You got to think long term and I'm glad you brought up Cisco and Splunk. It's not directly related to our 5G podcast, but although Cisco does have a significant service provider business, I will let our viewers and listeners know that I'll be publishing a Forbes article likely on Monday.

Robert Kramer, our newest analyst that's joined more insights and strategy did contribute. He's our enterprise data expert. And I penned an article around observability and where I think the value lies with a Splunk. And Cisco tie up. It is quite compelling. This broke when I was in London. I was actually, dude, I was sitting in a pub having a beer when I got the note.

So I was not predisposed on this. Obviously, there were rumors that were circulating around, who might buy Splunk. Apparently Splunk was shopping itself, but it is a great fit. There is a service provider play, and I would encourage our viewers and listeners. To check out that Forbes article when it posts on Monday at Willtown Tech is where you can find it.

But let's go to your third and final topic. You want to talk about Reliance in India, and they're launching a fiber service. It's an FWA 5G service, and it's leveraging a standalone network. Now, dude, this is crazy because India has been pretty far behind, right? And, when you look at, when their 5G auctions occurred, we've been talking about this for years.

And then all of a sudden, they're launching an FWA service with standalone. I didn't catch this news. I'm dying to hear your 

thoughts. Oh, it's really interesting. I saved the best for last, in my opinion, other than my earlier rant for about Apple. But the interesting part is, you're right.

They have made up a lot of ground very quickly. AT& T launched their fixed wireless service not too long ago. They've made up a lot of time. What's really interesting about this is, The company thinks that they'll be able to reach 200, 000, 000 potential households with the service. They launched it in 8 cities, including Dell in Delhi, Minnabeg, Bengaluru, Chennai, Hyderabad and Kolkata, Mumbai and Pune.

They've, they've hit the big cities and what's interesting about the service is it's a tiered service. So they're calling it geo air fiber, which is very similar to what AT& T is doing with their service and how they're calling it that. 

Internet. Yeah. ATT is calling theirs and they are claiming ATT is claiming that they're standalone.

That's a part of that deployment for them. Exactly. I 

saw that too. So what's interesting is they're offering a 30 megabit service for 7 a month. And then they're also offering a 100 megabit service for 10 a month. And then they're also offering a service that, that can, you can opt in for some OTT channels as well.

And then. In addition to that, they have an air geo air fiber max program, which is 300, 500 and 1000 megabits per second. The gig speed is 40 bucks a month. 40 bucks a month for a gig. Not bad at all. Obviously, in India, that's probably pretty pricey when you consider what other people are used to paying for Internet service there, but even then, 300 is 18 bucks a month and 500 is 30 bucks a month.

So those are very affordable, reasonable price. Yeah. And, yeah, they're, they're really moving fast with this. And I think they're gonna, give a lot more people access to Internet that maybe they wouldn't have been able to have otherwise. Because in India, there's obviously a lot of fiber, but there's a lot of places that don't have fiber.

So I think they're going to actually be able to fill a lot of gaps with the service and they're already. 1 of the biggest fibers providers, in the country with 9, 000, 000 subscribers for just for fiber service. So I think this actually might end up being a lot bigger than their current fiber service.

And I think their fiber services around the same size as 18 teases right now. It's really interesting to see how they are leveraging five, five G fix wireless to accelerate their growth and, increase access to customers and give customers choice. And, they have competition in India, so they're not going to, jack up prices on people.

Like we wouldn't rather markets, but, realistically, this is a huge win for them. And I think it's going to only continue that fixed wireless momentum for the industry and pump up those numbers in addition to what T Mobile and Verizon are doing in the U. S. 

Yeah, FWA continues to be a killer 5G use case and Reliance Jio.

They continue to be disrupted in that, that India market and, they're leaning into disaggregated infrastructure and open RAM and, cloud native architectures to deliver the service and, it's quite compelling and there are, more entrenched competitors like the Barty, air towels of the world.

And, from my perspective, reliance is like this disruptor, with T Mobile in the U. S. Delivering tremendous value. Those prices are very aggressive. And obviously in India, it's a developing, geography and nation but it's still very compelling on the surface.

So it's exciting to see what reliance is doing in that market. And again, competition breeds innovation. I always like to state that on these podcasts. So exciting stuff, but. I know you've been on the road. I just got back from London. I'm about to do a turnaround. I'll be in New York with vastly and then with T Mobile and mobile world Congress.

So probably not my best performance on the podcast, but you know what, buddy, we got 1 in, you're in New York, and I'm back in Austin just for a day or so, but, another great podcast. Why don't you take us home? 

Absolutely. We hope our viewers and listeners found this week's topics interesting.

If anyone out there would like to provide insights on a specific 5G topic for a future podcast, please reach out to us on social media. Will is at Willtown Tech and I'm at On Shell Sog. We hope you have a great week and please don't forget to rate and subscribe.