Welcome to episode 162 of the G2 on 5G. It's the latest insight scoop on everything 5G. We cover six topics in about 20 minutes and it's brought to you by Moor insights and strategy. I'm Will Townsend and joining me again this week is fellow analyst Anshel Sag. Let's get started with my first topic.

And Deutsche Telekom this week announced the launch of a 5G private network offering with Microsoft. This isn't new. Both companies have been working together in the past, but the difference with this announcement is that Deutsche Telekom is basically leveraging Microsoft Azure's private multi access edge compute platform to deliver a full stack solution.

And you and I have talked on prior podcasts about how mobile edge computing can supercharge 5G use cases. Basically putting computational capabilities where data is actually created to speed things like latency and that sort of thing. I think it's very compelling and what I like about this, Azure continues to grow its footprint within telecom and, you could argue that AWS is the leader.

From just from a hyperscaler perspective, AWS is the leader. But what I really like about this is that it continues to demonstrate Azure's rise and they're very quickly in my mind, closing the gap AWS has offered a private 5G solution. But it's been somewhat bespoke, and they've AWS has put it out there, waiting for opportunity to come its way.

What I like about this is, Deutsche Telekom has been working with Microsoft, over, the last few years. And this is just a nice, from my perspective stair step to provide additional functionality. I know you, you found this article as well this week. What are your thoughts?

Deutsche Telekom is arguably one of the largest carriers in the world and, they have a very interesting position because of all of the manufacturing that happens in Germany and how much of that they enable or actually hoping to enable maybe so I think there is something there and I think this could be a big opportunity for Microsoft.

If it comes to fruition with all the manufacturing in Germany. 

Yeah, there's no doubt. When you look at. The luxury automobile manufacturers that are based there, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, it certainly lends itself to those applications and. Yet Germany in general they are one of the most technology forward leaning countries in the world and certainly in Europe.

And it's no surprise that this has some German, flavor to it. But hey, let's go to your first topic. And today was or this week was one of the biggest ones for Apple. Typically in September, Apple has its big reveals. And so the iPhone 15 was announced.

You want to talk about that? You also want to talk about the Qualcomm licensing deal that we spoke about last week.

I'm going to take a quick pivot there and say, I'll lead with the modem licensing deal. Cause we talked about it last week, actually. And that was an interesting thing because we predicted that they would have to sign a new licensing deal. If their modems weren't ready and it very much looks like their modems are not.

And the best way for this, usually what happens since this has become a pattern of behavior, I would say because modems are hard. What ends up happening is Qualcomm in its financials has to disclose that it has a lead customer that it no longer will have, or that it's reduced capacity to its investors, and then that ends up being extrapolated as Apple is, moving on from Qualcomm, but that has not happened.

They reversed their statement. With this release. Of a joint licensing deal with Apple, which also extends the chip supply agreement for an additional three years. Now we're all the way out to 2027. And Apple is going to likely make the transition. As expected to happen in 2025.

Now we've now slipped from the initial 2023 date to 2024 and then to now to 2025. Two, two slips, which might be attributable to Intel's modem design team that Apple acquired in 2019 when it ceased to be an Intel customer and then moved on to buy all of its IP and assets in that space.

This is not a surprise. I would say it's a little surprising in the sense that, they've made it seem like they're going to be ready, but they're not, and I expect what, from what I've seen on all these documents and all these releases Apple will likely transition. Majority of its modems in 2025, but there will still be about 20 percent running on Qualcomm and in 26 and 27 is when you can expect the full transition.

But that is once again, assuming they don't have any more delays, which they now are more delayed than they are on time. And yeah, I just think modems are really difficult. MediaTek has a pretty good modem out there that competes with Qualcomm. Huawei might have a 5G modem. That's competitive.

We don't actually know. Lots of details are very murky around that mate 60. But in general, I think this is a a clear vote of confidence in Qualcomm's abilities and another unfortunate misstep on the modem side for Apple. Now moving to the iPhone 15 they did announce the new iPhone on Tuesday.

They had a big Apple event. They did not announce any new minis, so there is only an iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 plus there's an iPhone 15 pro and an iPhone 15 pro max. The base level iPhone 15 gets The 14 pros processor. So it's an a 16 ionic. It also gets the dynamic island from the pro of last generation.

So the way I look at is the 15 is very similar to the pro of last generation in terms of capabilities. And it also gets a lot of the camera capabilities from that as well. If you have a 14 pro, there's no reason to get a 15 unless you go to the pro line, which the pro line has a new a 17 processor.

They're calling it a 17 bro. And on top of that, it gets new CPU, new GPU, more AI performance and. There's upgraded cameras as well as a 5X optical zoom, which Apple has never had. It's a, in my opinion, that's a true telephoto zoom. It will be really interesting to see how that works. They also are adding ray tracing for the first time in Apple's history following the ARM and Qualcomm ray tracing capabilities that were announced last year.

So Apple's trailing a little bit there. Samsung obviously also has telephoto 10x on their phones. So I'm gonna already pre ordered my iPhone 15 Pro Max. So I'll be comparing it here to my S23 Ultra and seeing how that works. I also have an iPhone 14 Pro Max here. So I'll be comparing both the generational improvement as well as what the competition has to offer.

Other than that, they did not talk about 5G whatsoever, even though they clearly do have a 5G modem, which I found really interesting, especially considering the whole licensing deal being signed the day before. Timing was very interesting on that agreement. And yeah, Apple also announced an Apple Watch.

Series nine with a new processor does not have 5G connectivity, so I didn't really lead with that. But it does have a 4G modem option. I do think down the road, we'll probably get a 5G modem from Apple with red cap, and that will probably be a derivative of what they do on the phone side. Also, what's really cool, and this is, I think, maybe a little bit of Jason, not really 5G related, but the watch does add a new capability to do gesture control.

So when you double tap like this with your finger index. With your thumb and your index finger. You can actually actuate like the primary button on the watch in case both your hands are occupied. But I actually think what's really interesting about that is it's going to end up being like an XR application where when you're wearing the Vision Pro, you can double tap and the watch will recognize it as well as the optics.

And the AI on the headset. So that's going to be an XR application. I've already seen other companies doing these kinds of haptic gesture controls for XR. So this is a clear iPhone thing. The other cool thing, just since I mentioned AVP, which is Apple vision pro the iPhone 15 pro and the pro max will have a spatial camera, which captures 3d video.

That you can watch on the headset so you don't have to use the headset to capture a 3D video, which is what they talked about during the launch. Because everyone's I'm not going to walk around my headset to capture video while I'm doing things. The solution is they're using the wide angle and the ultra wide cameras to create a 3D video that you can then watch later on in the headset.

That's cool, man. Initially, you're the device expert. I'm the infrastructure guy. I wasn't too wowed by that, but you brought, that to my attention. Oh, I forgot. Type C. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's big, right? That's the big one. 

But, it's for our audience. I'm an Android guy.

I always have been. Type C has been the standard for 7 or 8 years on Android. Like, when I say standard everybody's been using Type C for that long. It was really funny when Apple eventually came on stage and they were You know, iPhone type C is, has been a globally accepted standard. I'm like, yeah, except for on the iPhone because Apple has a type C on literally everything else.

Yeah but they introduced type C on the last generation iPad because I, I upgraded my iPad and, it was right. It was the European Union that was forcing Apple into this position, right? Because they were requiring standardization and, there was no way that Apple was going to maintain separate skis.

That would just look really poor. And, but, hey, what, when I reminded some of my friends, because they were commenting on the U. S. B. C. it's oh, big innovation from Apple, but you got to keep in mind that with lightning. Apple is making a ton of money on that.

Licensing lightning to my 

certification. Yep. 

Yeah. Yeah, so also there are 

motivations behind the 1. the 1 thing I forgot to mention is if you want. USB 3. 0 speeds on type C. You have to have a pro or pro max. Otherwise, USB 2. 0 speeds for data transfer. On the iPhone 15, unless you have a pro or pro max.

There's no point in using USB for data transfer. You're better off using Wi Fi. But if you're connected on a Pro or a Pro Max, you've got a 10 gig connection. You just have to make sure you have a USB 3. 0 capable connector. 

Got it. Got a final thing on the new iPhones they, they've changed the case construction to titanium, right?

Kind of, so only the pros get titanium, but it's like a titanium bond to aluminum. So it's like a titanium shell with an aluminum frame. And I will say, they've really gone, leaned in into recyclable and repairable. So they, first of all, it's the first time I've actually mentioned that the iPhone's repairable.

So we'll see how I fix it decides in terms of what, how repairable it is. But it seems like they're actually making it more repairable and more modular. And they're also using more recycled materials. So I think they're using a hundred percent recycled copper in the PCB. And like the aluminum is like a hundred percent recycled aluminum.

Obviously that even, maybe even the titanium is recycled, but they're really leaning into recycled materials, which I really can't knock. And I would love to see the rest of the industry follow them in that sense. But I do think repairability is actually more important than recyclability, but recyclable plus repairable.

That's the peak of being conscious about the environment. 

Yeah, certainly Apple is a leader on it comes to sustainability. So that's all good to see. So I may have been a little too harsh initially. In my evaluation, but, the fanboys and the fan women like to come out, and drugs, around these apple announcements but, there's some compiling, feature bumps.

I don't think there's anything earth shattering here, but, compelling stuff. And I think a lot of people are going to seeing Apple, move to USB type C as well. But hey, let's let's go to my second topic this week. And this is actually something that you found in the news, but it's interesting.

So AT& the

5G Open Innovation Lab. And I thought it was interesting that you found this article, because I've actually spoken with the 5G Open Innovation Lab as they like to refer to themselves sometimes. And I'll actually be publishing a Forbes article. It's going to be several weeks out, but just sharing some general impressions.

The 5G open innovation lab, it is not a nonprofit. It is a for profit and they are incubating very, compelling use cases and. Facilitating, startups that are not, not at early stage, but that have solid, minimally viable products. I believe there are over there are nearly 120 companies that they're helping to incubate their T Mobile historically participated there.

Helping to provide test beds and that sort of thing, obviously but T Mobile is leading because they want to focus more on what they're doing within their accelerator, their tech experience hub and Bellevue, and as we've spoken about in the past they have a, they have this dev edge, initiative where they've been providing their.

And beginning to provide network slicing for application developers to develop on top of. AT& T and Comcast. Are stepping in, they're going to be inaugural members and AT& T really brings a wealth of knowledge from a lab and incubation perspective, because of AT& T labs and their former foundry program.

And back in 2020, I spent a lot of time, I traveled to several foundry locations, including 1 in Israel. To really understand what, AT& T was doing to incubate these efforts. But that foundry program was folded into kind of the more kind of broader AT& T labs effort, but I really like the fact that AT& T is jumping in here.

It's going to help extend what they have done historically in the past, through their lab effort. They certainly have a lot of credibility here. And I think, for the 5g up and innovation lab it's great that they're adding them and, hey, Comcast, they're a cable provider that has designs on on mobility, all the big, the 3 C cable providers.

Are engaged in delivering, mobility services to augment their bottom line. They're also recognizing the fact that lots of people are cutting the cord. And in order to pivot. And seek new profit pools and that sort of thing. The cable companies are getting into this, primarily through MDNO relationships, but but it'll be interesting to see over time how, Charter and Comcast and, and others, advance here.

But any thoughts here before we move to your next topic? Yeah, 

I was actually surprised. I didn't know that Open Innovation Lab was a for profit. I do think it's interesting that T Mobile is leaving. Or has already left and that Comcast and AT& T are replacing them. I thought about this a little bit.

I think it makes sense if you think about where T Mobile is in its evolution of its network. I think that they've used the open innovation lab and other things to explore ideas and work with new companies. And I think now that their network is a lot more mature, and they've figured out a lot of.

Use cases. I think they want to maybe keep those a little bit closer to their chest now. And I think that's really what it is if you look at, like, how industries evolve new industries, they usually start out very open and collaborative and then eventually they start to become a little bit more insular and more tightly integrated.

And I think that's probably what we're looking at. But I was a little bummed to hear that they were leaving because I think it would have been cool to have. A place where a lot of the biggest carriers are collaborating with each other. But I don't know, we'll see how it pans out. But in general, I, it's a good thing to hear that, they're going to continue to work with.

AT& T and Comcast and I have some talk some something to talk about in my next topic related to Comcast. Happy to transition. 

Yeah, let's transition. I'll just I'll say 1 final thing. So I've been catching the actually the TV spots where T Mobile speaks about Pano AI, right? And you and I have spoken about them on prior.

Podcasts and they're leveraging T Mobile's 5G network to predict wildfires and improve response times and that sort of thing. And that's been a big, huge issue in California. It's been a big, huge issue in Texas with our drought. We finally got some rain. In Austin and Bastrop over the last couple of days.

So that's been great. But that, that panel, that was something that AT& T when you and I were at their analyst event last year in Bellevue that they really highlighted and spoke to is a very compelling use case, but that is a great transition to your 2nd topic. On both T Mobile and Comcast, and I caught this week, and I shared some insights over X or Twitter or whatever we're calling it these days, but but it looks like T Mobile is going to buy some, if not all of Comcast's 600 megahertz spectrum, and you want to talk about that.

Yeah, so basically Comcast was the third biggest bidder on the 600 megahertz auction. First was T Mobile, then it was DISH, and then it was Comcast. So I believe that Comcast bought the spectrum because they wanted to have a very good coverage spectrum for their network but it seems as though they have moved away from this 600 megahertz spectrum and are happy with 3.

5 gigahertz CBRS. As the backbone for their network, they say that it exceeded their expectations and found the band to be highly efficient and significant and a significant part of a 5G network. I think this is a component of the fact Comcast has a pretty broad Wi Fi footprint as well. However, I am not convinced that 600 megahertz Is not doing something for them.

I think it's actually going to bite them in the ass later on. Because I think, I truly believe 600 megahertz is like the best spectrum to have. If you want to actually have coverage on a 5G network. And I totally get why DISH got it, and I totally get why T Mobile got it, and heck, I even understand why Comcast got it.

I don't understand why Comcast is divesting. I don't think CBRS is going to give them enough coverage. I genuinely believe that this is a confirmation that they're not trying to do nationwide. And in fact, they're probably trying to stick to the densest areas where 3. 5 can propagate well enough. With a combination with Wi Fi I really believe that the the charters and the Comcasts of the world are going to heavily leverage Wi Fi 7 to build out their networks in combination with whatever Spectrum holdings they do have but the interesting thing is that they are selling this Spectrum to T Mobile at a to the tune of 3.

5 or 3. 3 billion, no, 3. 3 billion. 

3. At the high end but the range I read was between 1. 3 and 3. 3 or something. Yeah, and 

I believe that I don't know what the actual final terms of the deal are, but I have seen that strange as well. The Verge says 3. 3 billion because it's like a a lease and then a buy.

So I'm not really sure what it is. It's a lease to own almost, one of those scenarios. But the truth is, I think this will eventually bite Comcast in the ass long term. And it will be great for T Mobile because it will help them have more spectrum on the low end. Which is really valuable because, with 600 megahertz, you won't, you have a maximum 100 megahertz of spectrum and realistically there's not that much spectrum, especially when you consider that dish was the 2nd biggest buyer and having that low band spectrum will help them, create a really solid base.

And they can probably allocate more of that to uplink. So they can actually have better upload speeds on 5G. Because realistically the best scenario for T Mobile's network is you use 600 megahertz for uplink and 2. 5 for downlink. And by doing that you actually improve 2. 5 gigahertz. Coverage because your coverage is dependent on your uplink.

So by using 600 for your uplink, you actually improve 2. 5 coverage. And they say that the spectrum will cover major cities in New York, Orlando, Kansas City, and others. And those are very big cities for T Mobile, Kansas City is their old 

headquarters 

for Sprint. Orland Park. Yeah, 

Orland Park.

That's a big one. And so is New York City. That's one of T Mobile's best networks in terms of coverage and improvement. So they're going to use that for uplink for sure. In Orlando, it's a huge entertainment hub, tons of places where it's good. And honestly, I was actually at Disney World at Epcot, and I had incredible performance on T Mobile.

I was very surprised. So I really think this is about improving uplink speeds. It's, And improving 2. 5 coverage as a result of that. But also, I think there's going to be tons of people who use fixed wireless service and maybe 600 megahertz is the only thing they've got. And by, adding more spectrum there, I think it will help a lot.

I don't know what the spectrum numbers are in terms of amount of spectrum. I think it varies from license to license. But I can imagine it's probably in the 10 to 20 megahertz range, depending on, the locale. 

Yeah, no I think it's a smart move by T Mobile for all the things that you mentioned.

I do have a quick theory on why I think Comcast is divesting this and wanting to lean into CBRS. It's interesting. So I wrote a Forbes article several weeks ago about Charter and Nokia working together and how Nokia is providing a mobile offload solution. That is a very unique kind of solution in a box that uses CBRS for mobile offload.

For our viewers and listeners that don't know this the big cable companies, the 3 C's is what I like to call them. They are using horizons network and an MD and a relationship and, obviously with an MD, you get less priority, and so potentially the performance is degradated, but it's also quite expensive.

And this is just a theory, but what, what Comcast may be thinking is, hey, we'll continue that in a relationship, but then you see, and they own. I believe they own power licenses, just like charter BRS for mobile offload. So that because they have all these points of presence, right?

For their cable deployment for with consumers. And so they can install this, like a Nokia, like solution and and then do mobile offload. And so that reduces the bill that they pay to, to Verizon for that Indiana contract and it improves performance. So it's a, it's a cost mitigator and it's a performance enhancer.

I'm only guessing, but but because they do have power licenses and honestly, to build out 600 megahertz spectrum, the capex involved in that is, is tremendous. And so they can sell it. They can get a couple billion, put it in their pocket, and then they can use that. And I'm just guessing.

I don't have any knowledge whatsoever. But my theory is that, maybe they're going to go a mobile offload route and, with and continue their relationship with with Verizon. Because at the end of the day. The cable companies, that's not their core competency building mobile networks.

That's the core competency that T Mobile and AT& T and 

Verizon have. And anyway, I think really, I personally don't think their mobile plays. Are a direct competition to T Mobile and, AT& T and Verizon. I think they're more of a competitor to Dish or any tier, but I think they're only doing, I feel like they're only doing this because they're losing subs on the wired side.

And I think they're just trying to diversify as a result of that. Also, I will make a note, I had this tab open and I didn't realize I did. I'm looking at the Comcast FCC license. And for the New York area, which is a, it's actually like the tri state area, so it's like New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, actually Connecticut as well.

Yeah. It has it's 10 megahertz. So it's 25 megahertz blocks. So it's not a lot of stuff. It's not that much. But if you add that 10 megahertz on top of what they have, that actually helps them quite a bit because to your point, it's not a lot. So by potentially doubling their spectrum, it does actually improve what they can do on the airplane quite a bit.

Yeah, no, cool. That was a great conversation. My friend. I'm going to make my 3rd topic very short and succinct because I'm planning to write a Forbes article about it. But I was able to get a VIP tour of the circuit of the Americas. This is where in Austin, we've hosted F1 for the last, I believe, 12 years.

And formula 1 is expanding to other markets Miami and Las Vegas, but I had an opportunity to spend a couple hours with the team out there and they are partnered with X to net. They are a mobility integrator and they actually, they don't, they only just don't only integrate, other people's solutions, but they have their own solutions as well.

They have their own core and software stack and that sort of thing. But. Long story short I've been pretty critical of my experiences at Coda with the mobile networks bombing out and not supporting things like concessions that are wirelessly, connected fan experiences and applications that just don't function.

I had an experience with my cousin walking up, for the F1 a few years ago, where he had forgotten to download his tickets and despite the fact that. AT& T and Verizon and Timo had, Colts and cows in the parking lot. We couldn't download our tickets and so we couldn't get on a Wi Fi network.

So anyway I met with the facilities executive vice president. And and also with their their vice president of of marketing. And we did a tour. We jumped in a a sprinter van. We went around the facility accident was showing what they are doing to upgrade a lot of the antenna.

Infrastructure there and how they're paving the way for future connectivity needs because if you didn't catch this circuit of the Americas is actually beginning to construct an amusement park. The closest 1 is in San Antonio. There's a 6 flags there and there's a C world in San Antonio.

But, and then, Dallas is Dallas, there's 6 flags over Texas and Dallas. But so what, circuit of the Americas wants to do is basically create an entertainment complex where, fans can go and see concerts and go see, races but they, but then have an amusement park for, for the kids as well.

They're gonna have 5 major attractions. Leo their facilities executive was showing me some of the plans there and it's very ambitious. It's very grand. But at the end of the day, they're going to need better connectivity and they recognize that it's a partnership with so it's not just a supplier.

Client is actually making investments. They're a company that was Based in Chicago for many years, but they moved to to Dallas, actually Frisco to be closer to the telecom quarter there so they can recruit talent, and be, more central in the country so that they can get to, either coast as well.

But but I was just my initial impressions were that finally, and I've been critical of Coda. In the past, but does recognize that it needs to make this investment. And but also what, what the executives explain to me was, it's not an easy task because traditionally they have several races a year and that's it.

And then that's when they have the influx of people. During the last, F1 on race day on Sunday, they had over 400, 000 people. And so the economics of taking a footprint that's geographically massive and densifying it, it just, it's not cost effective. So they're going to do this in phases.

They're going to start with areas like the paddock their amphitheater where they do concerts. They have an open air area where the Rolling Stones played two years ago. They're gonna, they're gonna put some infrastructure out there. And then phase it. And then over time, they're also evaluating what they're doing with wifi.

They are a Cisco shop, so they're using a lot of system technology out there. But all in all, after that tour, I had a different appreciation for the challenges that they were facing and now I feel a little. Bad about some of those mean tweets, but I think those tweets got their attention.

And again, it was a fantastic experience for me to go up there and I'll be writing a Forbes article and hopefully publishing that in the next couple of weeks. It's not news. It was just an experience. I had a day on a Friday, but any thoughts around venue management and some of the challenges that they're faced with.

I think everybody's late. They should have done their upgrades during the pandemic when nobody was using infrastructure. But I'm sure their finance departments wouldn't have justified it because they wouldn't get the payback fast enough. And now I think everybody's biting their, their tongues after, making that mistake.

Also, I had the same experience at Coda. In 2019 or 2018. So I completely understand where you're coming from. And I agree with you completely. The experience was atrocious. Yeah, I agree. And I'm glad to hear that something's actually getting done. And it'll probably be, to your point, a multi year phase.

But yeah, I think maybe my next topic might be a good opportunity to address some of those issues. At coda. 

Yeah, no, it's a great topic. So we've talked about this in the past, 5G broadcasting. And so you want to talk about a test at w. O. and they're partnering with Qualcomm, which is not surprising to me, but there's some pretty compelling 

results.

Yeah, I'm gonna make this quick because we're running out of time. But basically, they're continue to run these tests. They showed this 5G broadcast technology, which is part of the standard operating with Qualcomm smartphones to demonstrate live TV. But also to use this 5G broadcast to send out messages for, emergency services, they get delivered in under a second, which could actually be used for stuff like earthquakes.

And I think that's actually a really cool idea where, we're actually able to predict earthquakes six to seven seconds before they happen now. And if you can let people know six to seven seconds before they happen to get out of their building, like that actually could be huge for saving lives.

But in addition to that this would be something that TV stations could use to save money. It's an open access technology, so it doesn't require a SIM card. But it sounds like a T. S. C. three is a real competitor for this. And it seems like a T. S. C. three might have more features and capabilities.

However Sinclair is very opposed to it and it's pushing a T. S. C. three, which means, they're a big broadcaster and they have a lot of influence, but I also don't fully trust them as an organization. They are the ones behind the Diamond group who went bankrupt and was no longer able to pay like 16 MLB teams for their licenses.

I'm not really a big fan of Sinclair Media for a lot of reasons, ignoring the political aspect of what they do. But FCC is supporting both, both ATSC3 and Broadcast 5. 0. And that's why we're seeing these demos because FCC had to approve this test. And I personally believe that there are opportunities for broadcast on 5G to actually be useful.

But we'll see what ends up taking and maybe broadcast ends up being something gets, gets used in other countries and eventually gets used here. But ATSC3 is the standard right now. 

Yeah, no, I think 5G broadcast is very interesting and, and I think, again having, different flexible, solutions will just, raise the water level from the innovation perspective.

But it's been a great podcast. We've had a lot to talk about. We ran a little bit over, but why don't you take us home buddy. 

Absolutely. We hope our viewers and listeners found this week's topics interesting. If anyone out there like to reach out and provide insights for a specific topic for a future podcast, please reach out to us on social media.

Will is at Welltown Tech and I'm at Anshel Sag. We hope you have a great weekend and please tune in again next week and don't forget to rate and subscribe.