1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 Hi, I'm Zach and I am a writer on an elephant. 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:06,900 That'll make sense. 3 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:08,080 Keep listening. 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:09,320 It sounds weird now. 5 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:10,640 It'll make, it's still weird, 6 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,360 but it'll make sense in about 20 minutes. 7 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,480 My name's Caitlin and I can't wait to figure out 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,680 how emotionally moral I am. 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,120 I have a feeling you are. 10 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,680 I have a feeling I'm very moral. 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,960 My moral direction points to right. 12 00:00:34,740 --> 00:00:39,740 But moreover, I think everybody is based on 13 00:00:39,980 --> 00:00:41,520 the research we're doing today. 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,160 So you are a part of everyone. 15 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:49,560 And with that, welcome to Manipulating the Masses. 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:50,800 You are the masses. 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:55,760 Don't give yourselves to brutes. 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,840 Men who despise you and slave you, 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,320 who regiment your lives, 20 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:00,520 tell you what to do, what to think, 21 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,200 or what to feel, who drill you, 22 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,120 diet you, treat you like cattle, 23 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:05,780 use you as cannon fodder. 24 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:08,440 Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men. 25 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,880 Machine men with machine minds and machine hearts. 26 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,280 You are not machines. 27 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,440 You are not cattle. 28 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,480 You, the people, have the power. 29 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:21,200 Okay. 30 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:26,200 All right, so we are back with another episode 31 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,480 of our Bracing for 2024 series, 32 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,320 talking about political campaigns 33 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:33,840 and bouncing back to the psychology behind 34 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,280 why these things work. 35 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,760 Last week we discussed attack ads. 36 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,960 We went through a bunch of attack ads. 37 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:43,480 And you and I, Caitlin, went back and forth. 38 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:44,560 How did they make us feel? 39 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,480 What was our thoughts from the marketing end? 40 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:49,160 Now we're gonna break it down a little more 41 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,360 and talk about the theory of emotional morality 42 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,800 and how really our moral code 43 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,440 and the things that drive us in what right and wrong 44 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,520 is really based on our emotions and our knee-jerk reaction 45 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,520 and our fast-thinking reaction to different situations. 46 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,800 Look at me like layering in our other episodes. 47 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,000 This is like a pro podcast now. 48 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,440 I'm like impressed with ourselves. 49 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,960 If only someone would pay us to do this. 50 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:24,920 God damn it. 51 00:02:24,920 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaking of that, my Venmo is, I'm just kidding. 52 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,160 We're waiting on that. 53 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,560 We're just giving it to you free 54 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,360 because we love doing it until someone offers to pay us 55 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,920 and then we'll do it because someone's paying us. 56 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:40,800 But in our discussion today, 57 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,960 I do think it's very relevant in politics and in marketing 58 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:46,680 because marketing companies do this as well, 59 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,920 but we vote for someone every four years, two years, 60 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:53,680 in the election cycle for president 61 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:55,640 because we think they're the right candidate 62 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:58,640 or we think the other person is the wrong candidate. 63 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,840 So I think it's important to address 64 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,040 how we come up with those decisions 65 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,800 and what little ticks in our brain drive that. 66 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,400 So Caitlin, we're gonna kick off this episode on morality 67 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,720 with a few scenarios. 68 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,200 You're gonna love these. 69 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:18,200 Your job is to tell me, is this right or is this wrong? 70 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,080 We're gonna all together figure out Caitlin's moral code. 71 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,800 So the first one, a family's dog is killed by a car 72 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,320 in front of their house. 73 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,320 Very sad day, hit by a car. 74 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,600 The family has heard that dog meat is delicious. 75 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:40,440 Come on. 76 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:41,440 So they cut up the dog. 77 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:42,280 Come on. 78 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:43,160 They cook it. 79 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:44,000 Come on. 80 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,040 And they eat it for dinner. 81 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:45,880 Stop it. 82 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,760 Nobody saw them do this. 83 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,120 Nobody saw them do this. 84 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,040 Nobody else eats it. 85 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,280 You've already come to your moral conclusion 86 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:54,440 before I finished it. 87 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,280 Gross. 88 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,080 So why would you say, can you elaborate? 89 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,640 Why is that wrong to do? 90 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,760 Can I just ask? 91 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:02,920 Okay, my first instinct was like, 92 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,640 a dog is a part of your family. 93 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,240 You might as well have chopped up Aunt Betty 94 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,480 who died last year and cooked her over a frying pan. 95 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,800 Is there any difference between the two? 96 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,360 Is there a difference to you? 97 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,160 I mean, that's what we're coming up with. 98 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:24,000 No, there's no difference. 99 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,360 You see no difference in eating the dog and eating the food. 100 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,360 Cooking Aunt Betty and cooking a dog over your frying pan. 101 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,320 Asked Jeffrey Dahmer. 102 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,160 Do you? 103 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,000 Ha ha. 104 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:38,680 Okay, okay. 105 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:39,520 That's fair. 106 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:40,800 That's fair. 107 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,240 I would say the main difference, 108 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,520 at least in American culture, 109 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,040 is there are laws against eating other humans. 110 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:48,880 Is there? 111 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:49,720 I just have to ask. 112 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:50,560 Is there? 113 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,400 A dog. 114 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:54,480 Like seriously asking. 115 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:55,320 Like, seriously follow up. 116 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,560 I would hope so. 117 00:04:58,560 --> 00:04:59,920 So we don't even know. 118 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:00,760 We don't know, okay. 119 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,760 I'm not entirely sure to be perfectly honest with you. 120 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,960 But to that point, laws don't define morality, right? 121 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,080 Like laws are an offshoot of morality. 122 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,240 We think what's right and we create laws 123 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:18,880 to enforce what we think is right, 124 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,480 but they could be wrong as well. 125 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,560 So your reaction is disgusting. 126 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:26,800 Okay. 127 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,320 You are in line with 97% of people. 128 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:31,760 97, okay. 129 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,240 97% of people. 130 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,080 In this scenario, I'm okay being a part of the masses. 131 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,600 Yes. 132 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,760 Well, we're just getting started. 133 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,080 So I mean, if you're listening to this in the morning, 134 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,000 maybe just take a pause, bookmark this, 135 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:49,840 you know, wait until a little later 136 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:54,400 because we're breaching some moral concepts here. 137 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,080 Okay, next. 138 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,400 And you are gonna know where I'm going over with this 139 00:05:58,400 --> 00:05:59,880 right off the bat. 140 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Let me finish. 141 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,160 Let me finish. 142 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,240 Jack and Jill are brothers and sisters. 143 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:08,240 No, brother and sister. 144 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:09,080 Done. 145 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:12,720 I'm out. 146 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:13,800 I'm playing Ubers here. 147 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:14,880 I gotta go. 148 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,320 Their parents decide to send them on a trip to Paris 149 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,000 for a summer vacation before they go to college. 150 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,560 It's a beautiful night in the city of love. 151 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:28,400 Okay, I'm sorry. 152 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,440 Do you have to set up this scene? 153 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,400 Like we know where you're going with it. 154 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,040 Let's just get to the bottom. 155 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,520 I am literally taking these verbatim. 156 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,400 There's a wonderful book, The Righteous Mind 157 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:43,800 by Jonathan Hadel. 158 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,160 He does these experiments and he's talking about 159 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:47,480 why people are divided. 160 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,520 I'm not taking ownership of it. 161 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,360 I did not. 162 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,200 That's a good call. 163 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,680 I wanna say I did not create these scenarios. 164 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:54,680 I did not. 165 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,720 I am taking them verbatim 166 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,280 from a psychological study. 167 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:01,360 Yes, thank you. 168 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:02,600 I wanna qualify. 169 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,480 It's maybe a little too late to do that, 170 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:05,520 but I wanna qualify. 171 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,800 I did not come up with these. 172 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,040 So it's a beautiful night in the city of love. 173 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:10,880 Great, we're back in Paris. 174 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,280 Jack and Jill are brothers and sisters. 175 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,000 They're in Paris. 176 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,200 They decide that they'd like to sleep together. 177 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,200 It's a one-time thing. 178 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,040 And they feel like it would bring them closer together. 179 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,480 Jill is on birth control. 180 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:27,040 Jack uses protection. 181 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,960 They tell no one about this 182 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,000 and it helps their relationship. 183 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,440 In the future, they feel much closer 184 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:35,840 as brother and sister. 185 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,720 And it never happens again. 186 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,760 One-time thing, but it brings them closer together. 187 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:41,920 Right or wrong? 188 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,880 Jack, do you have a sister? 189 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:44,720 Nope. 190 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,880 Okay. 191 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,200 Well, let me just be the first to say. 192 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,160 Don't drag me into this. 193 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,240 This is Jack and Jill. 194 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:52,800 Don't drag me into this. 195 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,120 There is no brother and sister duo 196 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,080 in the entire world that would be like, 197 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,080 you know what? 198 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,360 I really want to get closer to you. 199 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,640 And then you find a method to do that. 200 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:05,120 Like, nobody is like, 201 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,880 I really need to get closer to my brother tonight. 202 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,120 And like, I don't care how we do it, 203 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,120 but I need to get closer. 204 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,280 It's like, no, every brother, sister, duo 205 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,280 in the entire world is just fine hating each other. 206 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:17,440 It is what it is. 207 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,560 It's the dynamic. 208 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,080 Everybody's fine with it. 209 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,040 So is it wrong? 210 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,840 Absolutely. 211 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,920 I don't even think I have to go into that. 212 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,320 It's incest. 213 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:29,600 That is a law. 214 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,080 Is it? 215 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,240 Yes. 216 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,120 Incest is for sure a law. 217 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:35,200 For sure a law. 218 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,320 I'm not sure about cannibalism, 219 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,840 but incest is a law. 220 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:40,800 Is it? 221 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,840 Marriage, because marrying incest is a law, 222 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,040 but is like relations a law in France? 223 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,240 I'm just kidding. 224 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:50,280 I don't know. 225 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:51,840 That's a genuine question. 226 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:52,960 Like, is it a law? 227 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:57,200 OK, well, so we're not sure about laws on this podcast. 228 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:57,840 Nope. 229 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:58,280 Nope. 230 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,320 But as I said, laws do not define morality, right? 231 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,360 I think what we have to do is determine. 232 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,000 OK, tell me how many people I'm in line with. 233 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,720 Oh, 94% of people. 234 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,960 OK, that's disappointing. 235 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,640 You're telling me less people would rather 236 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,560 eat their dog than sleep with their sibling. 237 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:20,600 That's exactly what I'm telling you. 238 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:21,760 Yes. 239 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,080 There's a reason. 240 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,640 And we will get into that. 241 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,320 But there is a reason that people 242 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,200 feel more compelled to protect an animal than they 243 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,520 do human to human. 244 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:41,000 Feel compelled to protect from humans. 245 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,840 There is a foundation, a moral foundation, 246 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,760 which I'll touch on that we have that 247 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,280 speaks to that difference, that little bit of difference. 248 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,160 Yeah, and I think it's wrong, too. 249 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,920 I'll put that out there, too. 250 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,400 But it is, I do want to qualify that, 251 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,640 that it's hard to say why it's wrong, right? 252 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,400 Do you feel that? 253 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,080 Like, you went, your counter to why it was wrong 254 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,680 was like, this is unrealistic in the first place. 255 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:15,440 There's no brother and sister that would do that. 256 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,960 Like, that was your reasoning, right? 257 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,000 It wasn't anything about the nuance of right and wrong. 258 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,040 It was like, no, this is unrealistic. 259 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,160 No way, it's just wrong. 260 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,520 My second reason was it's incest. 261 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:30,880 But why is incest wrong? 262 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,560 Because you make strange babies. 263 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,880 OK, I agree. 264 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,680 I'm like, I want to qualify. 265 00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:42,920 Do you use this question mark? 266 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,200 I'm fully on the same page as you, Caitlin. 267 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:47,960 I agree with you 100%. 268 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,560 But this is what we're pushing for, 269 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:53,240 is like really exploring the morality, right? 270 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:58,640 Because just saying incest is wrong is, in my opinion, correct. 271 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,400 But it is an emotional feeling that we're feeling. 272 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,320 We're feeling disgust, right? 273 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,720 We're feeling like that emotional tug on ourselves 274 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,520 to say, that's wrong. 275 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,800 When we have to remove ourselves from that, 276 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,160 it is difficult to explain in a reasoned way why it's wrong, 277 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,880 even though we feel like it is very, very wrong. 278 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,360 And that's what emotional morality is, right? 279 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:28,200 Like, it's just that feeling that we get that's like, that's 280 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,440 wrong. 281 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,200 I'm not advocating for incest. 282 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,240 I just feel like I'm digging myself a hole here. 283 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,680 I'm just, I am prompting discussion, Caitlin. 284 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:39,000 I am prompting discussion. 285 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,160 I get it. 286 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,680 In no part of my brain was like, Zach's advocating for this. 287 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,520 I guess you felt like you need to say that. 288 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,280 I needed to, because I know you would get it. 289 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,560 We're here face to face. 290 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:52,600 I know there's going to be thousands of people 291 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:53,640 listening to this. 292 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:54,640 This is the internet. 293 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,760 It's going to stay on forever in perpetuity. 294 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:00,200 I need to qualify it. 295 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,920 I need to be very clear. 296 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,920 People, celebrities have gotten burned for way worse 297 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,920 than me prompting a psychological discussion about incest. 298 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:10,480 I can't wait. 299 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:10,840 What's next? 300 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:11,720 OK, last one. 301 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:12,600 Yes, hit me. 302 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,280 Last one. 303 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,240 A woman is cleaning out her closet. 304 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,680 She finds an old American flag folded in her closet. 305 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:23,600 She doesn't want the flag anymore. 306 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,240 So she cuts up the flag and uses it as a rag 307 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,240 to clean her bath. 308 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Right or wrong? 309 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,840 I mean, oh, fuck. 310 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,560 OK, I'm going to say wrong. 311 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:38,560 I'm going to say wrong. 312 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:42,480 A, because since the dawn of time, 313 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,640 since Caitlin was two years old, you've 314 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,320 been taught to not disrespect the flag 315 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:49,840 and do not burn the flag. 316 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,080 Do not do anything with the flag. 317 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:53,440 What? 318 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:54,320 Why are we laughing? 319 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,240 I just love that your daughter time is when you started. 320 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,760 Like, if the daughter time is when you were born. 321 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:00,880 I love that. 322 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,760 BC, Caitlin, and after Caitlin. 323 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:09,600 I love that so much. 324 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:10,920 OK, keep going. 325 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:11,720 I just love that. 326 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,200 So there was no world prior to Caitlin. 327 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,920 And so since the dawn of time, we've 328 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,840 been taught to not disrespect the flag. 329 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,760 So when you told me that, it was like very much 330 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,840 a visceral reaction. 331 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,800 And now you're going to ask me, but why is it a visceral reaction? 332 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,720 And I'm going to tell you, I don't know. 333 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,080 I don't know. 334 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:33,480 I'm confused. 335 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:34,840 OK. 336 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,040 I cannot have a good weekend anymore. 337 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,840 You're going to be thinking about eating dogs, incest, 338 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,240 and just desecrating the flag. 339 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,120 And actually, you are a perfect example of this, 340 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,400 because when Jonathan, hey, did these experiments 341 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,640 with people, he actually writes about it in the book. 342 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,640 He says, at some point, they did exactly what you did. 343 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,200 They're like, I don't know why this is wrong. 344 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,920 It's just wrong. 345 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,080 Just someone told me it was wrong. 346 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,920 That is the reaction. 347 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,800 Yeah, they would just get exhausted by being prompted of, 348 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,320 well, why do you think this is wrong? 349 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,800 Well, isn't the American flag just a piece of fabric? 350 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,320 Like, why is it wrong to use it as a rag? 351 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,400 And they just get beat down to the point that they say, 352 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,800 it's just wrong. 353 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,360 And that is the validation that this is just our morality 354 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:40,080 is justified by emotional tugs and pulls of our brain. 355 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,240 It's this idea that when we feel discussed 356 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,720 or when we feel disrespect, that's wrong. 357 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,000 Can I say, though, it's almost as if my morality was 358 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,960 defined by my upbringing. 359 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:02,040 So if I were, and I am in no way, shape or form, 360 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,560 disrespecting any sort of culture. 361 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,280 But I am going to say, in other cultures, 362 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:12,280 eating a dog is not looked down upon. 363 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,680 And often, it is like a means to an end. 364 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:17,600 It's survival. 365 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:23,560 And in that mindset, I would say, 366 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:29,480 a dog is not a household family member. 367 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,840 It doesn't belong in the house. 368 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,000 And so I am OK eating it, just as I am OK eating cow 369 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,680 or chicken or whatever. 370 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,800 So it's almost as if this isn't my own moral compass. 371 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,800 This is somebody else's morality defined for me. 372 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,080 That's so astute. 373 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,640 And I think that they do, he does talk about it. 374 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,840 There are differentiators between cultures. 375 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,920 As far as these scenarios are concerned, 376 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:05,920 but there are some cultures where even saying no to an elder 377 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,760 is blasphemy. 378 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:14,960 If someone's older than you, it is ultimate and respect. 379 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,640 And if any counter to their thought 380 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,480 is completely just immoral, and it 381 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,320 brings up that same feeling of disgust when they see people 382 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,240 disrespecting their elders like that. 383 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,680 So there is these elements and these cultural differences 384 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,560 between these particular scenarios. 385 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,240 But what he finds is there are six key components 386 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,840 to our emotional morality that drive us. 387 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,080 And we will later in the episode talk about them. 388 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,240 And then we're going to actually dive into each one 389 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,760 throughout the season, really try to talk about each one 390 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,160 of these six moral foundations. 391 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,160 So I'll leave that there. 392 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,320 I'll touch on them later. 393 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,480 But it is very key. 394 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,240 There's a common feeling between all of us 395 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,320 and reactions to certain things that drive it, 396 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,840 even though the scenarios will differentiate 397 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,240 between cultures. 398 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,360 It's a great point. 399 00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:15,280 You should write this book, Caitlin. 400 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,600 Well done. 401 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,240 So bringing it to the political sphere, 402 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,960 we see politicians on both sides using these emotional 403 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,800 morality type of reactions to get people to either like them 404 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,560 and hate the other side. 405 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,400 And I pulled three examples. 406 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,800 Republicans claiming that the Democrats are 407 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:42,880 running a pedophile ring is my first one. 408 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,680 Pedophiles, we've talked about it, 409 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,960 take care of the children. 410 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:54,760 That just elicits such a strong emotional reaction 411 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:02,120 that they get people to be fully on board with the Republican 412 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,840 platform because they say Democrats are running a pedophile 413 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:07,160 ring. 414 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,560 And how can you be four pedophiles? 415 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,840 How do you get that same disgust 416 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,360 you mean that you had when someone was using the American 417 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:17,760 flag as a rag? 418 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,400 It's that same feeling where you can't before that. 419 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,760 Democrats on the other side claiming Republicans 420 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,160 are forcing back alley abortions. 421 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,640 And it's tough. 422 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,440 Like that is an emotional reaction that we have. 423 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,920 That one's a little bit harder because people can argue that 424 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,920 because they're serious. 425 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:43,640 God, I don't know. 426 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,520 The more I thought about it, the more I was like, 427 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:54,000 it's like, oh, my thoughts are going in circles about that one. 428 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:54,880 What is up? 429 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:55,800 What is down? 430 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,160 When we're thinking about morality, yeah, no. 431 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,160 We're on the same side of the political spectrum. 432 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,360 I think there's many arguments for that. 433 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,800 The Republicans are always going to argue we're pro-life. 434 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,240 And so nobody should like there is no scenario where there's 435 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,480 back alley abortions happening. 436 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,680 But the Democrats are claiming Republicans are forcing this. 437 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,400 And then the Republicans would say. 438 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:22,200 Yeah. 439 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,720 And then the Republicans would say, like, yeah. 440 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:28,560 That one's a bit. 441 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,400 That one doesn't feel. 442 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,080 That one. 443 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:31,480 Yeah. 444 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,560 That one doesn't feel as black and white as like Pizza 445 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,440 Gate, for example, where it's like, yeah, none of us 446 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:38,720 are for pedophilia. 447 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,080 None of us are for cutting open babies and drinking their blood. 448 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,360 Nobody's for that. 449 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:49,320 The back alley abortion feels like there might be a gray area. 450 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,320 But I don't think that's the topic of discussion. 451 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:52,880 I think I just had to say that. 452 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,800 No, I think you make a good point 453 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,120 because what we discuss on the podcast in previous episodes 454 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:06,800 is there's a fervent, dedicated audience to the Republicans. 455 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,240 And you and I both are on the other side 456 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,720 of the political spectrum. 457 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,640 But I would not say I'm hardcore Democrat. 458 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,280 I don't root for the Democrats every time 459 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,080 because I just have values, my own moral values, 460 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,520 that align with them. 461 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,760 And maybe that's what Republicans are doing better 462 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,960 is they're drawing these hard moral lines 463 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,880 saying Democrats are pedophiles while on the blue side, 464 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:34,840 it's more ambiguous. 465 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:40,080 They're like, yeah, they're not pulling 466 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,600 on our emotional morality to say we need to vote Democrat 467 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:49,080 or this country is going to totally go to shit. 468 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,160 Maybe that's a piece of the marketing 469 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,400 that we can discuss later. 470 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,040 But I will say in that vein, both sides 471 00:20:55,040 --> 00:21:00,080 are claiming that the other one is completely destroying 472 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960 the American culture. 473 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,480 What it is to be American, both sides 474 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,720 are saying vote for us. 475 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,360 The other person is taking the American flag, cutting it up, 476 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:13,360 and using it as a bathroom cleaner. 477 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,880 They are both saying that from different sides 478 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,480 to try to tug on that emotional morality. 479 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,280 And you made a good point. 480 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,600 You said your mind was spinning. 481 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,080 And it's like what we talked about, that fast and slow 482 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,600 decision making, this emotion and reason. 483 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,280 It's enough to send you in circles. 484 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,320 You don't know what's up and down. 485 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,200 And it is disorienting to some degree. 486 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,480 And the political parties, both of them 487 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:45,080 play on this to try to get you to feel very strongly about one 488 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,640 party and hate the other party. 489 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,600 In order to even get you to vote, 490 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,280 you got to feel a moral compulsion to vote. 491 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,480 And you need not only a moral compulsion to vote, 492 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,680 but to vote for them. 493 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,640 And I think a good example of this as well is gun control, 494 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,360 when we're talking about politics. 495 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,880 The Democrats argue reason. 496 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:13,120 And they argue, hey, less guns, less access to guns, 497 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:14,440 equals less shootings. 498 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,720 Here's the statistics. 499 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,280 Here's how we compare against other countries. 500 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,040 They throw a lot of numbers out. 501 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,200 They throw a lot of patterns out. 502 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:28,000 Republicans utilizing emotion say gun control is in our rights. 503 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,080 It was written as the Second Amendment in our Constitution. 504 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,800 You cannot take that away from us. 505 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,080 This is sacred. 506 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,920 This is something that was written into our Constitution. 507 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,800 Limiting guns is limiting our sacred rights as Americans. 508 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:50,680 And that is why I feel they get tons of support on the gun lobby. 509 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,560 Gets massive support because it's an emotional moral thing. 510 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,320 While Democrats, while we feel emotional or while gun control 511 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,760 advocates feel very emotional about it, 512 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,480 their argument is very steeped in reason. 513 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,760 And the only time they get leverage 514 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,440 is when there's a mass shooting. 515 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:13,000 And that obviously emotional pull of innocent people dying. 516 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,680 Do you have any thoughts on that? 517 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,960 I know I'm touching on tough subjects right now. 518 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,840 Yeah, I think there's a difference 519 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,080 between taking something away from someone. 520 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,880 People are going to be so much more inclined to hold on to that. 521 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,480 There's so much more inclined to say, 522 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,880 don't take away my rights versus the left side 523 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,640 is where we want to institute new laws. 524 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,160 We want to institute better background checks. 525 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,240 So it's harder to get on board with that because people 526 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,040 don't feel like anything is getting taken away from them 527 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,560 versus the Republican and the right is like, 528 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,280 I'm losing something. 529 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,280 That is a perfect segue. 530 00:23:58,280 --> 00:23:59,800 I could not agree more. 531 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,160 And that's a perfect segue into my next moral scenario for you. 532 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,800 So here's the scenario. 533 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,040 And this one does involve me and you. 534 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,920 But it's not OK. 535 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,080 I'll just get into it. 536 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,080 I hand you, Caitlin, a piece of paper. 537 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,880 The piece of paper is a contract. 538 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:27,680 It says, I hereby sell my soul after my death to Zach Phillips 539 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,360 for $50. 540 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:34,680 So I give you $50, you give me your soul. 541 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:35,480 You have it. 542 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,200 I include a footnote. 543 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,040 Good luck. 544 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,960 I include a footnote that says, this is not 545 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,720 a binding legal document. 546 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,600 But it's a piece of paper that you would say, 547 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,760 hey, I will sell my soul to you for $50. 548 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,400 I get $50, you get my soul after my death. 549 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:52,000 Boom, done. 550 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:52,960 Would you sign it? 551 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,840 If I got $50. 552 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,000 You got $50. 553 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,440 For my soul. 554 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,200 I mean, first of all. 555 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:03,040 Do you sign it? 556 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:04,440 If I'm giving you? 557 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,800 You should have put a higher dollar amount on that. 558 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,840 Is anybody doing anything for $50? 559 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:11,920 Any more? 560 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,320 So you're at least debating it. 561 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,000 Like, do I even want to do this for $50? 562 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,240 Because the dollar amount, I upped it to $50 to be clear. 563 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,000 Like, in his experiment, he said $1. 564 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 I love debating to make it a little more reasonable. 565 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,240 $1. 566 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,160 When was this written? 567 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,480 Like, when they were exchanging rocks for currency? 568 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,160 The dollar amount doesn't matter. 569 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,320 I'll give you that hint. 570 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,520 Like, the dollar amount does not matter. 571 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,760 It does. 572 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,360 Because A, I don't care what you do with my soul afterwards. 573 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:52,120 I do not care. 574 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:56,200 It is, you are not, you're getting nothing out of that deal. 575 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,440 But I have to make sure I get something from that deal. 576 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,240 And that something is money. 577 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,480 I want money. 578 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,240 But you're giving away nothing. 579 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,640 Who cares if it's a dollar or $50? 580 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,080 But you think it's worth something. 581 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,120 You think it's worth something. 582 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:13,920 So now I'm telling you it's worth more. 583 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,440 And I'm saying, yeah, you can have it. 584 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:15,920 I don't care. 585 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,560 But it's actually worth a million. 586 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,280 You're going to negotiate the price of your soul? 587 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:21,720 OK. 588 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:22,880 I mean, that's a fair answer. 589 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,320 Spoken like a true business owner. 590 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,200 Well played. 591 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,280 Well played. 592 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,360 But you're even debating it. 593 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,480 Like, for me, that's my fast thinking brain too. 594 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,560 At first, I'm like, give me more money. 595 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:36,360 And fuck yeah. 596 00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,240 But at the end of the day, when I think through it, 597 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,640 I'm like, personally, I don't believe in a soul. 598 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,400 I don't think I have anything after death. 599 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:44,560 Give me the $50. 600 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:44,960 Sure. 601 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,560 I'll sign a fucking bullshit piece of paper. 602 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,400 And I'll just cash in $50 for free. 603 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:50,920 Why not? 604 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,600 Go have myself a nice dinner. 605 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:53,120 You know? 606 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,600 Like, who cares? 607 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:54,880 Right? 608 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,920 Yeah, that's the easiest $50 I've ever made. 609 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,560 And so now I think I can make more. 610 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,560 You're going to milk it for more. 611 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:06,560 Do you want my spirit? 612 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:07,060 That's fair. 613 00:27:07,060 --> 00:27:09,240 Well, you are not in the masses. 614 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,200 Yeah. 615 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,280 You want my consciousness? 616 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:12,780 You know? 617 00:27:12,780 --> 00:27:13,560 My consciousness? 618 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:14,360 My ghost. 619 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:15,840 My habit. 620 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,120 Yeah, my ghost. 621 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:19,560 They're like, what's on the menu? 622 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,200 What's is on the menu? 623 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:22,120 I love it. 624 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:27,000 Well, we didn't get into the typical, 625 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,720 you're not in the masses on that one. 626 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,840 You're not in the masses. 627 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,000 That doesn't surprise me. 628 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,920 Because typically people will. 629 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,480 Sorry to interrupt. 630 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,800 But that doesn't surprise me because religion, it's 631 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,000 so prevalent, and there is belief of an afterlife. 632 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,480 And God, all religions, I think. 633 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,000 Yeah. 634 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,400 Well, that's why you put the qualifier in there 635 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,040 that footnote that says this is not a binding legal document. 636 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,920 So at the end of the day, even if you still believed in that, 637 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,840 it's not a binding legal document. 638 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,880 It's just signing a random piece of paper for $50. 639 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:04,560 But people are still. 640 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,240 But it plays on that. 641 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,240 So protective of their souls. 642 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,960 And that's the emotional morality of it. 643 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,320 Our rational brains, our slow thinking brains say, 644 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,600 yeah, who gives a fuck? 645 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,680 It's not a legal document. 646 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,760 Maybe I don't even believe in a soul. 647 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,040 Give me the $50. 648 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,480 But our initial reaction, that fast thinking emotional brain, 649 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,720 says, my soul's worth more than $50. 650 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,280 Or I don't want to give that up. 651 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,160 I don't want to give up my soul. 652 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,960 What is going on here? 653 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,960 So hate creates this wonderful analogy 654 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,440 that I love that I said in my intro. 655 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,560 He calls it the elephant and the rider. 656 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:53,960 And this idea that our fast thinking emotional brain 657 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,480 is the elephant. 658 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,840 And it's big. 659 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,000 And it's moving. 660 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,400 And it's just lumbering along, really truly out 661 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,240 of our own control. 662 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,720 Our rational brain, that slow thinking brain, is the rider. 663 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,280 We can learn how to navigate it. 664 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,120 We can tell the elephant which direction to go. 665 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,160 We can learn the elephant's ticks and tricks 666 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,040 to guide the elephant. 667 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,640 But at the end of the day, that elephant's 668 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,880 going to go where it wants to go. 669 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,400 And there's some element of our brain 670 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,080 that if we're riding this elephant 671 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,160 and it starts moving towards the water hole, 672 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,680 we can say, oh, the elephant's thirsty. 673 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,840 We can rationalize the elephant's movements 674 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,040 as the rational brain. 675 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,000 But the elephant in its emotional state 676 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,920 is going to do what it wants to do. 677 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:46,760 Do you have any thoughts? 678 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,640 I think that's a great analogy of what 679 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,840 we've been experimenting with. 680 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,080 Do you have any thoughts on that? 681 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,800 Where does morality fit in that scenario? 682 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,120 That's a great question. 683 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:06,920 So rolling with this analogy, riding with this analogy, 684 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,560 the rider, it's the two working together. 685 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,320 The rider benefits the elephant in the sense 686 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,200 that the rider can see further into the future. 687 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,600 It can see trappings laid ahead and guide the elephant 688 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,280 around it. 689 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080 So it can make better decisions for the elephant. 690 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,000 The rider can learn new skills and tactics, 691 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,400 which can help the elephant reach its goals and avoid 692 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,040 disaster. 693 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,200 And most importantly, the rider acts as a spokesperson 694 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,280 for the elephant. 695 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,080 So this is where morality comes in, 696 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,000 where our moral, that feeling of disgust, 697 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,440 is something innate with us. 698 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,600 That's the elephant, and that rider 699 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,480 is us trying to rationalize why it's bad to eat a dog. 700 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,000 The rider is acting as a spokesperson 701 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,000 for that emotional reaction. 702 00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,960 But that doesn't mean the elephant's dumb. 703 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:01,440 It's really smart. 704 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,840 That's why he uses an elephant. 705 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,360 Elephants are really smart. 706 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,000 The idea that your emotions are stupid is ridiculous. 707 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,240 It is very smart. 708 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,560 The rider is just like the PR firm for the elephant. 709 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,720 The rider reacts and rationalizes and guides 710 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,320 the elephant in the right direction as best it can. 711 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,960 Wait, so in the dog-eating scenario, 712 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,080 your my reaction to that was like, was the elephant 713 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,240 or was it the rider talking? 714 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,240 It was the elephant and the rider trying to justify? 715 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,200 Exactly. 716 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,360 Oh, so the elephant was my emotion 717 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,880 and the rider was the morality. 718 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,440 Yes, the rider was you trying to explain, 719 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,720 like this is why the dogs are part of your family. 720 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,560 Like you saying a dog's a part of the family. 721 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,760 I feel like that's the same as eating Aunt Betty. 722 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,200 That's the rider. 723 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,240 The elephant is that emotional gut disgust of like, 724 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,680 oh, that's wrong. 725 00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:59,600 You know what I'm saying? 726 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,720 And then the rider just rationalized. 727 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:02,560 OK, gotcha. 728 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:03,840 Yep. 729 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,440 Yeah, so I think it's a great analogy. 730 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,640 And to tie this to the 2024 election, 731 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,560 we need to be aware, particularly on both sides, 732 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,080 when politicians are speaking to the rider 733 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:18,880 or they're speaking to the elephant. 734 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,520 When we see ads that just try to tug, 735 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,280 as we saw in the attack ads, right? 736 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,600 Like the one I think of is Hillary Clinton's attack 737 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:33,000 ad that we reviewed that was like having the kids watching 738 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,440 Donald Trump say terrible things, right? 739 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,280 Like there really wasn't a substance of what Hillary 740 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,080 was trying to do differently. 741 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,840 It was really speaking to our elephant of like, oh, 742 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:46,840 protect the kids. 743 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,880 Don't let them see a world where Donald Trump becomes 744 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,200 president, right? 745 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,720 And we can beat that manipulation that politicians 746 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,080 try to do by understanding the difference and recognizing it 747 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,920 and saying, OK, I'm feeling this way. 748 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,480 Why are they trying to get me to feel this way? 749 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:12,600 And what rationalizations can I make to counter that? 750 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,080 So with that, I lost it. 751 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:16,480 I had a thought and I lost it. 752 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,960 I know I lost my elephant. 753 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,320 You lost your rider. 754 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,040 Your elephant's still going strong. 755 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,200 You never lose the elephant. 756 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:25,560 The rider took a break. 757 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,280 My rider's gone. 758 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,280 But that's really all I have. 759 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,440 It's kind of a heavy thinking episode, 760 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,880 so we'll keep it kind of short. 761 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,080 But do you have any gut reactions to that? 762 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,400 Like, what is your elephant? 763 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,760 What do you need to speak for your elephant? 764 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,120 The rider is checked out, gone for the day. 765 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,160 He jumped off. 766 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,480 He tied up the elephant at his watering hole. 767 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:57,560 And the elephant is just at the watering hole on a Friday. 768 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:04,000 Well, in that sense, I will how we're going to break this out. 769 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,960 Next episode, we're going to talk about campaign slogans 770 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,840 and kind of how they pull on some 771 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,320 of those emotional moralities. 772 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,560 But I do want to give you the six directions, 773 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,360 the six moral foundations that are common across all of us. 774 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,960 So first, we have the Care and Harm Foundation, 775 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,520 the idea that we either need to care for someone 776 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,400 or the reaction when someone's being harmed. 777 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,240 That is a key component and a key moral foundation. 778 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:36,480 And we'll actually be talking about that in two episodes. 779 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,960 The other moral foundation, the direction that the elephant 780 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,520 goes, is the fairness-cheating moral foundation. 781 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,920 We have very strong reactions to being fair to people 782 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,880 and very strong reactions when we feel like someone is cheating 783 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,480 us or cheating someone we care about. 784 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:53,400 I might have missed that. 785 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:54,520 The other one is. 786 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,680 But can you, when you're talking about these opposites, 787 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:04,680 what are you saying that we should be prepared for this 788 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:10,320 in 2024 to look for ads that are either appealing to care 789 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:11,520 or harm? 790 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,760 And you should be aware of whether your elephant is 791 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,080 being pulled in one direction or the other? 792 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,360 Yes. 793 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,600 So solely by playing on these moral foundations. 794 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,160 OK, so these moral foundations. 795 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,040 Gotcha, gotcha. 796 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,640 So people will play on these moral foundations. 797 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,800 Either they're playing on harm and causing a reaction from you 798 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,160 or they're playing on care and trying 799 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:39,600 to cause a reaction from you. 800 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,880 Either way, it's a moral foundation 801 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,160 that you need to be cognizant of. 802 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:44,960 Exactly. 803 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,680 I think the perfect example is the one 804 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:52,440 that we talked about, the Pizza Gate, deep QAnon people 805 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,360 playing on the Care Harm Foundation 806 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,760 by saying children are being manipulated, 807 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,560 their blood is being drank in the basement of this pizza 808 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,720 seller and it's run by this Democratic cabal when the pizza 809 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:08,760 place didn't even have a basement. 810 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,560 So they're playing on that moral foundation so hard, 811 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,000 it's devoid of any fact. 812 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,920 And there's no rationalization of that fact. 813 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,160 It's completely wrong. 814 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,280 But they are just manipulating that moral foundation 815 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,520 to get people to be on their team and be on their side 816 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,720 and advocate for what they're doing. 817 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:32,240 Nice. 818 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:32,740 OK. 819 00:36:32,740 --> 00:36:37,720 So it's devoid of all reason and fact and solely. 820 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:39,720 And politicians on both sides do this. 821 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:41,960 And they're doing this more and more frequently 822 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,840 because people don't want to do research. 823 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,120 They're just playing on this. 824 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,360 So I think the goal of this series that we're going to do 825 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,240 is really getting people to understand. 826 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,480 And the first part is just understanding 827 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,160 that they're trying to do this. 828 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,400 And then your rational, your slow thinking, your rider, 829 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,640 brain can kick in and start to break it down a little bit 830 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,200 and make either a rational decision rather than 831 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,480 an emotional one. 832 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,000 Gotcha. 833 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,320 So there's kind of a problem. 834 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:08,000 No, no, no. 835 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,600 You explained it so brilliantly because I was a little, 836 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,560 like I said, the rider is left of the station. 837 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:18,720 A Friday afternoon. 838 00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:19,640 It's been a long week. 839 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,280 OK. 840 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:21,520 So no, that's great. 841 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,000 So Karen Harm, what was the other one? 842 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,400 Fairness and cheating. 843 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:26,840 Yep. 844 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,640 So the idea that if someone's getting cheated or it's not 845 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,880 fair, we have a very strong reaction to that. 846 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,160 Loyalty and betrayal is another one. 847 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,400 Having loyalty to someone or betraying someone 848 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,280 is a common moral foundation. 849 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,040 This one I think is going to be very interesting to talk about. 850 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,720 But the authority and subversion moral foundation, 851 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:56,120 there is a moral reaction to authority and a moral, 852 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,800 we get these kind of emotional gut reactions 853 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,400 to subversion of authority as well. 854 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,120 I think that one's going to be a very interesting one. 855 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,760 That one plays into the next one. 856 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,720 So authority subversion, I think that one's 857 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:11,080 straightforward in politics, the authoritative, 858 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,120 whatever. 859 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,880 The next one is sanctity and degradation. 860 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,600 Now that is the emotional moral foundation 861 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,440 that I was playing on with the American flag. 862 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,960 Like there's the American flag. 863 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,680 We're degrading the American flag by using it as a bathroom, 864 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:32,280 rag, there's some sanctity, there's some like, 865 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,840 it can't be messed with because it is the American flag. 866 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,120 That's the moral foundation. 867 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,040 And then the last one is liberty and oppression. 868 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,840 So the idea of freedom and liberty and the idea 869 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,040 of being oppressed have very strong moral foundation 870 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,040 gut reactions from us as well. 871 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,360 So like I said, we'll give political examples. 872 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,520 Exactly, exactly like that kind of, 873 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,640 we want our freedom versus you are oppressing us by taking 874 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:03,920 it away. 875 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,480 Exactly, you're 10 steps ahead of me per usual, Caitlin. 876 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,080 So we will be giving political examples of this as we go on. 877 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,120 And then we will be diving into each one of these and saying, 878 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,960 OK, here's how you can tell that they're 879 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,360 playing on this particular foundation. 880 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,800 And here's how you can rationalize out of that. 881 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,840 And hopefully maybe even rationalize your peers, 882 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,360 family, whoever you're talking about with the election 883 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,760 to try to get a sensible conversation that doesn't 884 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,360 devolve into screaming at each other. 885 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,640 That's all I got. 886 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:40,480 That's all I got. 887 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,840 Anything else? 888 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:42,680 No one really wants. 889 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,440 Are we morally right? 890 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,680 Are we still in the right? 891 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,200 Have you had second thoughts? 892 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,800 No, I'm just kidding. 893 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,920 I'm always on the right. 894 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,040 In the right. 895 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,280 I feel the same. 896 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640 Maybe not on the right, but in the right, for sure. 897 00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,920 I was going to say, I'm going to let you finish that sentence 898 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,160 and then cut it off right there. 899 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:02,840 All right. 900 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:03,400 Well, thanks. 901 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,800 Stay tuned for our next episode. 902 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,760 If you like this one, please like, subscribe, 903 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,920 follow us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, the whole. 904 00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:12,840 You guys know the deal. 905 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:13,920 You listen to podcasts. 906 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,960 Just find us, Google it, manipulating the masses. 907 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:17,480 Bye. 908 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:37,640 See you next week.