Yeah, even thinking about this made me a little nostalgic. So all right, let's do it
Hi, I'm Zach and I'll meet you by the orange Julius
You motherfucker
Why was orange Julius like the one commonality between our intros okay, well, I'm gonna go my name is Caitlin and
Today we're gonna go pick up an orange Julius get our ears pierced at Claire's
And get some glamour shots
Don't give yourselves to brutes men who despise you enslave you who regiment your lives
Tell you what to do what to think of what to feel who drill you diet you treat you like cattle use you as cannon fodder
Don't give yourselves to these unnext-row men machine men with machine minds and machine hearts
You are not machines. You are not cattle you the people have the power. I
Forgot about the glamour shots part of a mall like you're right like there is there is always some kind of glamour shot
Section I know did you ever did you ever go into that?
Do I seem like a person that would go into that store? No, I but I see oh, you know, do you think I went into that store?
I
Think maybe as a young teenager. Am I right? I think you're being really nice
Absolutely, I got my picture taken any any chance I get
Absolutely, I went in there and I even Zach I tried so hard to dig up. Well, I didn't try hard
I was like damn if I had more time, I would dig up some of those photos. Oh my god, that'd be amazing
We all spend some time on Sunday. So by the time this podcast comes out. We'll post it on our Facebook group
I love it and I want to see them and I will hold it over
Like I'm gonna put those pictures as like all your reference for me like if you text me that picture
Like I'm
Integrating those glimmer shots in the every part of our conversations
I just have the best idea. We should do glamour shots for our company profile pictures
I love it. Okay. I'm into it. It's always the weird like it's always like awkward poses though
Yeah, yeah, yeah, have you hold like awkward poses? Yeah. Yeah. Well the backdrops are the best
I had a friend or I have a friend and
Well, she's actually one of our designers that works for us kind of
Sporadically contractually
And there's like a store in LA that's all the rave that does glamour shots
And it's just one of those things that is like that vintage aesthetic that people are just like gravitating towards again
So this place is just booming with business and she got her headshots taken there and they're fucking amazing. They're
I would love that
With her permission, maybe I'll post those on our group
Yeah, bring it back because I've seen like it like in Toronto one of my favorite cities like that
I was walking down the street and they had like a selfie store
Whereas like all these different backdrops and you could like go in and pay 20 bucks and it's like like they'll like take your pictures
And like you'll get it. It's it's a market. I guess it's a business, you know
2020s of glamour shots
2.0
Well, if you haven't guessed already we are gonna be talking about the rise and the fall of the American malls
Fascinating Zack did you have a mall job?
No, I actually didn't have but I applied to a lot of you are cool enough
I was not cool enough and I was I applied so many times
I thought it'd be so cool to work in a mall. Can we pause here and tell our listeners what your first job actually was?
Oh, yeah, so my first job was working in a farm
I was like detastling corn. I'd sit in a tractor all day
They take us up and down the cornfield and I tell you all the time
Like I had to like pull the little like like the little furry thing at the top of the corn and just throw it on the ground
Like to this day, I still have no idea like zero idea why I was doing that
But it was all day thing going up and down up and down and my favorite part of the story was
All the bosses were like on a prison work release program. So it was like all these inmates
I was like 14 is like these inmates were my bosses. You're like, let's get your ass out there
Like and I'm like, okay, I guess I'm not messing with these guys
I just love the era that we grew up when your parents were like, this is a great life experience for
You should go work for prison inmates and do something that you're not really quite sure of why you're doing it
Like this is a great life experience. Yes. Yes. I completely agree
And like there was one day where they were like Zach
there's a special assignment for you today and like they took me into this barn and there was like a
10-foot pile of goat manure just sitting in the barn and then I had to like take a pitchfork and like move it to the other
side of the barn and
This day, I still don't know why I was doing that
I was like, why am I just moving this pile of shit 20 feet and that's when I knew I was like, I'm a city person
I'm never gonna make it as a farmer. I don't get it
But if any listeners know why you move shit 10 feet from one side to the other
I'm still curious to this day. Google hasn't been able to solve my questions
God yeah, that has to be my favorite story about you
It has nothing to do with this podcast, but I did feel like it was necessary. I don't know why but did you work at a mall?
Did you work? No, I grew up in a mountain town
So the mall was an hour away
But I will say that when I was 14 15 years old and I got that paycheck from my job
You bet your ass I went straight to the mall and I have my driver's license
I was driving my car and I would go by myself like this was something I
Love to do. Yeah, honestly as I got a little older
Like there is like cuz I still pop into a mall every now and then right like I'll just go
I'll go like walk around but going by yourself. It's like a nice mental space. You know, I get a coffee like walk around
Not the same allure that it was but not a bad space. Yeah. Yeah, definitely
You don't have to wait for anybody, you know, you're not interested in a story. You can just go to the next one. Yeah, so
I'm gonna tell us a story
So there's not you feel free to interject to ask questions because this piece of the podcast is just gonna be story time
Oh, it's Friday morning. I'm ready for story time
Relax. I got my coffee. We're ready
So this I'm like wiping tears because I was laughing so hard at the shit
This story comes from business insider
Video of kind of the story and the concept of a mall
So the story of the mall begins in the 1950s
America was experiencing an unprecedented economic boom the economy overall grew by 37%
I kind of stopped here and I was like why what was do you know why I kind of post
World War two ish kind of like it settled in and I think all the the baby boomers. I think people were
Having babies everywhere. Right? It was like it was post World War two and that was it was kind of
Sad because it's like while the rest of the world is in just total fucking destruction like America is over here booming. Yeah
So I was like what what happened in the 1950s and people accredited it to Eisenhower's
combination of low taxes balanced budget and public spending
The middle class had more money to spend than ever before we knew this the 1950s was really when we saw this middle class
Strengthen and they were spending it on houses and cars
Along with this the economic boom Eisenhower's federal aid highway act
meant that people could drive to their jobs in the cities while living in a new kind of development
We know what this is a suburb. Yeah
The burbs, baby a boom of the burbs
That's what the podcast is named the boom. I like that the boom of the burbs. I like that suburban populations rose
Astronomically, but they lacked what sociologist Ray Oldenburg called the third place
Under this model home is known as the first place where you live
The second place is the workplace and the third place is this vital space where you can go to exchange ideas
Form relationships and create communities. So that third place for social interactions
Fascinating enter Victor Gruen a man who would later become the quote king of retail
He had already made a name for himself designing boutiques
But now he set out to design an indoor downtown. Oh
Wow
That's a very interesting concept. Okay. I love this
I'd know Victor Gruen
hated
Literally despised what the mall turned into even though he was the inventor of a mall and he quote
called it a
land virus. Oh
I like that too man Victor's got away with words. All right. We love Victor. He was also a staunch socialist
So which is kind of a little bit ironic
Yeah, I like him so we do love Victor. Um, so it on October 8th, 1956
America's first indoor mall opened in
Minnesota, oh
Interesting is it interesting? Yeah, I'll pause. I'll let you tell the story. But like yeah, okay. That's interesting
It's called Southdale Center Southdale Center
So it not only had shops, but it had fountains and our
Installations it had a bird sanctuary a
Courtyard and all of this within a single indoor complex so you can see his original vision and how the mall kind of
you know
Transformed from that original vision and why he now calls it a land virus. Yeah
The bird sanctuary part
It truly is it sounds like an oasis like
Go in and just relax
Yeah
The mall received mostly rave reviews deeming it an attraction on par with Disneyland
Which opened up just a year earlier in 1955
Walt Disney himself even cited Gruen as his main influence behind the ideas behind Epcot Center. Oh
Wow
The story is already fascinating. Yeah, I can see it. Have you been to Epcot before I have but it's a bit
I I don't know why Epcot
Epcot it's less like rides and Disney
Kind of themed things. It's like Epcot has like the world it has like shops and restaurants
Countries, okay, it is kind of modeled in that but every section has a different country
So there are rides there, but it's really not like Disney
Focused, okay? I think it makes sense. Okay
Yeah, I had been to Disney World, but it's been I mean 20 years maybe. Oh, you're not a Disney girl, huh?
No, I am not
And that's maybe that's maybe a story for another time, but that had everything to do with my upper
Okay, it's not a story for another story for now. Yeah, you can't just preface that
It had everything to do with my upbringing. My dad hated labels. He hated labels
Oh, I was not allowed to wear anything with like Mickey Mouse or Minnie on it like
Yeah, bizarre
And then why I have no idea. In fact, I'm gonna call him up and ask him after that
Like it's just so weird and my dad is not like super strict about things by any means
But for whatever reason when I was younger like he had rules against wearing Disney clothing
And then I just feel like yes, I've had my fair share of Disneyland
I've been to Disneyland a couple times and I just do not enjoy it like too many people and
They're just like unhealthy looking people. I'm sorry, but it just like I don't want to stand in line
It's just not how I want to spend my day
Nope, it's it's kind of the worst kind of people like it is it's it's not a lot of fun
It's not fun. It takes the over crowdedness takes the magic out of it. You're just like 100%
This is not my ideal of a fantasy. Nope. Nope
Okay, yeah, I just distracted you from your story. I knew I was gonna do that already
No, I was gonna say it is weird because my mom is a Disney fanatic like she loves me
I know it is bizarre. So her and my brother actually used to go every single year. Well, me and my dad were like
deuces
Really, I know I know she loves Disney
And yeah, so it's it's an interesting dynamic and I yeah
Just I'm looking at your face. Are you having like some family like revelations now?
Like this podcast is like part therapy. You're like whoa, maybe was there like some back room debate about Disney clothes with your mom and dad like
They close the door, you know
Kate would wear Disney I pick my battles and the Disney clothing is not one I choose to go down
So, you know
This is not as an unpacked Caitlyn's childhood trauma podcast. It's going to serve as a we're moving on
It's a little piece of Caitlyn's history
So
By 1960 so this was just four years after Gruen's first mall opened there was
4500 large shopping complexes in the United States like wow moved fast Wow
By 19 oh go ahead. Sorry. I keep going by 1975 malls and shopping centers accounted for 33 percent of all retail sales in America
One third of all retail sales Wow, are they counting like strip?
I mean, I'm I don't know if you know, but are they counting like strip malls like those kind of like areas is it over?
Oh now we want to get into a
mall
All I'm saying suburbs are known for strip malls. I don't know if we classify them in there
I don't know if we go down so I don't talk about strip malls, but I do talk about mega malls
Maybe strip malls is a time
33% that's that's unbelievable and in comparison
This day and age e-commerce makes up for about 33 percent
But think about the internet and how much opportunity there is to purchase on the internet versus a mall
So the fact that the mall captured this type of audience in
In such a small space is pretty unbelievable
Unreal I absolutely I mean it must have been like so successful right people just saw dollar
And they just like started putting them up everywhere
Yeah, it's kind of like I love the comparison to e-commerce because it's kind of like e-commerce sites
You know like a you see Amazon making money and then all of these e-commerce sites are popping up everywhere
There's millions of them out there, right?
Amazon is the mall of the digital age. Yes, it is. Yes, it is
Gruin utopian vision for the mall had not been realized
Cheap food courts were installed where courtyards were supposed to be instead of this
cosmopolitan community developers often surrounded balls with enormous parking lots and
Suburban housing projects is that so true when you think of a mall
You're you think of a parking lot like those two things are absolutely synonymous. Yes, absolutely
And then my in my rebellious days, we would go to the you would go to the mall
I would go to like the mall parking lot and so we
Weed yep, it was literally it was literally so big like you could just park in the corner smoke weed and no one would bother you
Oh
By the night, okay, so the 1980s fast forward to the 1980s
This was the golden age of the mall
shopping complexes continue to build at a rate of over 1,000 per year and in
1986 consumer reports named the shopping mall
alongside the birth control pill
antibiotics and the personal computer one of the top 50 wonders that has
Revolutionized the lives of consumers isn't that so interesting like a shopping mall in comparison to a birth control pill or
antibiotics, let's even like
something that actually helps people survive and
The ball is compared to something like that
That's incredible. That's incredible. Gotta love consumerism. Yeah, love it. Bye
Capitalism, baby. Um, so the golden age, you know 80s teenagers
This is really where that centralized idea came into play. This was where they went to escape and
Socialize yeah, and I do want to take a pause. I mean a thousand per year. That's three malls a day
essentially like opening nationwide that's
crazy
Day whoever owned construction companies was
Crashing in those years
Good time to be a construction owner. Yes. Yes, absolutely
The American mall would reach its peak in 1992 with its final evolution
the da da da the mega mall
mall of America
opened
with a whopping
5.6 million square feet and I say a million square feet and I can't even
Conceptualize how big that is I have never been to the mall of America
But I do not know what a million square feet is let alone 5.6 million
Nope, I can't I've never been either but that's why I thought
Victor opening Minnesota was interesting because like that is where Mall of America is, you know, like
When I first started down this podcast, I thought that that mall was going to be turns out the Mall of America
It's not it is two separate malls, but it is interesting that both of those concepts happened in Minnesota
Yeah, so the Mall of America opened with 500 stores a theme park with 27 rides an
Aquarium a wedding chapel
in a movie theater
How pissed would you be?
You if yeah, like if your husband was like, yo, let's get married at the Mall of America like who?
Who signs on for that? I wonder how
Yeah, except now in this day and age of like throwing it back and retro and vintage
Like it's probably a claim to fame to be like let's get married at this cool vintage spot the Mall of America
Like you know like that that can make up some good pictures
We could have the reception at the Orange Julius. It'll be great. It'll be great. Oh circle. Orange Julius makes a comeback
The mega mall was a mentally
Mentally profitable
Reports showed that consumers were 50% more likely to buy something at an attraction filled mega mall than at a regular mall
Leading to several more mega malls being built across the 50 states and I just like let's pause here
Don't you just love this? Isn't this like the most American thing you could possibly do?
Like we can't just have a good thing. We can't just let a good thing be a good thing
We have to make more
Money and make it bigger like that is the most just make things bigger. It's the American way
Yep, just keep going until it's too big and it crashes and like
American way that is the American way
We're such greedy capitalists
So I mean honestly that was the peak of it the mega mall was the peak in
1992
Wow, so because the size of the mega mall and this like unsustainable rate of construction
Would lead to the collapse of the mall
I mean if these investors if mall owners had you know
Got it their way
Though every single city would just be like a mall on every corner and like you guys know that that's not sustainable
Like what are you doing in in my town growing up? We had one mega mall woodland mall
In Grand Rapids across the street from another mega mall
There was two mega malls
Literally across the street from each other like center point woodland like they were and it was like competing like that makes no sense to me
Like that's a big on big right like did you did you know the word mega mall?
I had never heard the word mega mall until the
No, I had not heard of it, but like they were mega malls like they had
Attractions they were huge they like they tried to they definitely fit the bill
I have never been to this quote-unquote mega mall. I do not know what a mega mall looks like or
Feels like so so was there in these two malls that you grew up next to yeah
They had what you said attraction
So did they have roller coasters or like what type of attraction?
No, not like theme park stuff
But like attractions in the sense of like, you know little kid rides and like fun things to do like I do think
It was I considered in my mind a mega mall as in like
There's a bunch of stores food court the works, but they also have like little things here and there not as big as Mall of America
Where it's like a theme park?
Yeah
They had like little things to like go and they they wanted you to hang out there all day. That's what I'm considering a mega mall
It's not like you go in there's a couple shops. It's like these are large complexes with multiple things to do
Would I be wrong in that interpretation or I?
think um
I don't think you're wrong. Maybe what you're describing is how I would deem it like a
What's what's a step down from mega like uh?
ultra
Yeah, like a big size like a
like an SUV mall
Yeah, a mini-man
not a Hummer mall
Yeah, okay, okay
My malls were like the
um, I
Don't know CRVs malls. No like a camp Corolla. I grew up with Corolla malls. You grew up with
SUV malls SUV malls. Yeah the escalate malls. Yes. I'm with you. I like that. There's different tears
We have just established
Comparing them to cars, you know, I think that fits I think that fits
So I don't know so, you know the peak of it was in 1992
But then you you get to the 2000s and you do see this steady decline of the mall because
We can't let a good thing be and we just keep building and building and building so as a marketer
And you start to see this steady decline. How do you pivot to start to stay relevant?
That's a great question and you like prefaced me with this this morning to think about it and I do think
You know Mall of America kind of had it right and you mentioned it
I do think the original vision of Victor where it's a
It's almost like a theme park is the way to go, right? Like it's a day to spend out with your family
Take the kids go to the mall. There's other things to do
I just do think that the part of the decline is they relied so heavily on retail like that and you're right like it was
just shops on shops on shops and
As e-commerce came along
I think these malls saw e-commerce as their competitor when they should see Disneyland as their competitor
Right like how do we get people to instead go from a theme park to come spend the day with us and
Have a nice day of hanging out and doing things, right? What are your thoughts on that?
Yes, I actually went back to Victor Gruen's original concept as well
And granted I did a little bit more research than you did so I have a leg up on you, but
idea
And granted this was the 2000s. So I'm kind of
Well, you know what? I'm gonna save my idea
I'm gonna save my idea for the wrap-up of this okay because it's more relevant to today and how we can like save the mall
Oh, yeah, I like that. I like that
I'm gonna start a good campaign save the mall. Yeah, but like even like making sure there's an arcade, right?
Like making sure like there's something that you can just kind of like hang out in especially for the kids
I think is key. Yeah, right. Yeah, I think you nailed it
I think in the 2000s if you saw that decline you should go back to the original concept that worked and
Start putting in a green space, you know start putting in that bird atrium or
Or yeah, make it an enjoyable place to hang out this
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I and then I'll just tack on one more thing like I you know
I spent a long time living in Europe and abroad and they the malls are like still prevalent there
Like they still utilize the malls and it's because like they're a little different than the US
They they do have like atrium and and big hangout spaces and it is kind of true to that original vision, right?
Like it's still stores, but really
Designed to be a community hub and they're still they're still popping over there, you know, where did you say you broke up?
Oh in Europe. Sorry like yeah, yeah, just kind of trip Portugal
There was a bunch of malls and even like when I lived in Cyprus the little island in the Mediterranean
There was like the centerpiece to their entire city pathos that I was in was this high-end
super ritzy mall
And that's where everybody went. That's where I went, you know to go get stuff and it's just it's still a centerpiece, right?
Their culture over there, which is fascinating
Well, they mall investors
Did not go back to the original concept of Victor Gruen's mall
They just suck in through a Hail Mary and
Made the mega mega mall
Oh my god, this opened in
2019 in New Jersey and
It had not only a theme park. It had a water park. It had an ice rink and it had an indoor skiing complex
Indoor skiing complex. You're a skier. Would you ever go to an indoor skiing complex?
Um, well, I shake my head and I almost said absolutely not but now that you asked me
I'm kind of like interested to just see what that was like, but no, no, I wouldn't you know
Because the whole of skiing is getting outdoors
Riding a chairlift I bet this I bet this complex you ride a fucking elevator and you're taking off your skis
You're putting them over your shoulder like that is so I'd not taking off my equipment
Just to put it back on over and over and over again like no thank you
Yeah, okay
My kind of skiing where I don't have I get nervous with the chair lifts when I
You don't know when snowboarding like they stress me out
So if I had an elevator, I'd be like, yep sign me up, you know
But only an elevator that you could just like slide into where you did not like take off all your stuff
Yes, like I'm with you and unfortunately, you know this opened in 2019
And then the pandemic hit so
Who knows if this place ever had a chance to survive but the pandemic on top of it like
Shirley is gonna bury this mall
I didn't take the time to follow up on how this mall is doing because I don't think two years three years is enough of a
Qualifier to figure that out. So yeah, we'll be silently rooting for you mega mega mall in New Jersey
Or just like preparing our goodbye, you know, just be like, all right
Or maybe you just won't be a blip on anybody's radar and you can silently just
Disappear although you really silently disappear because you just fucking like put your footprint in the middle of New Jersey like
Millions square feet you took up. Yeah
So, yeah, well done destroying the earth time it changed. Am I right?
Marketing
Okay, so marketing the mall marketing for you specifically Zach
I found an article that referenced the ancient pottery markets of classical Greece as one of the first
Form of mall advertising any ideas on what tactics they took or how they did it
the ancient Greece
Well, I do pottery markets
Pottery markets in ancient Greece. I do think I mean they were known for like very robust
Markets back in the day, right? Like they it was I were they the first they were the first kind of civilization to have like a
Specified market square, right? I was gonna say that to the end but a fun fact
Apollodorus of Damascus built
Trajons
Market which is now considered to have been the world's first shopping mall. So yes
They were the first to kind of revolutionize these markets
But why pottery specifically was it just that's what they sold in the markets or? I?
Don't know
Okay, but that that was the theme. So I was I was right. God. It's so hard being right
Yes, but so but how did you how do you think the pottery markets would would market their product?
Do you have any ideas?
You know, I think I mean
Thinking back to I mean, I don't know a lot about the pottery market
But we're thinking back like they really decorated they took a lot of time decorating these powder these different pottery
items so displaying them out front letting people grab them hold them like kind of get physical with the shopping
Yeah, yeah touch it and then
Then buy it right and I think maybe that's the way to go. I think you're thinking even too abstractly
It's pretty it's actually pretty obvious
They painted on objects like coins bricks and city walls
They they literally just painted their own murals or painted their own they called them ads
Awesome. Yeah
Yes
And which I just paused and I was like, you know, don't you find it crazy?
That advertising has not come any further than that
Because you were like, okay ancient ancient ancient how do they had to have like involved touch?
But it's like no they painted on a wall
And yeah, same thing we paint on walls to advertise. I agree. I agree. I think if it works, I guess right like
I don't know. I mean like these people
threw each other into a gauntlet to be murdered
for sport and
and this was a spectator sport and now we have football
but
How has advertising not made the same adjustments like it's just so right
You're so right. I think it's just it's it's like it's the classic thing that you and I always talk about with advertisement
Where it's all about eye line, right?
Like people look at walls like when you're walking if there's some kind of like bright colors
They're good. It's it's all about how to get people to get in their eye line
They know walls is a great way to do it. Yeah, like
Fascinating and I think you're right like if it works it works like why re-engineer something that works
But I don't know it's something for us to start thinking about because we market in such a
saturated industry well not even industry just marketing is saturated all this digital space
I
Don't know just something else to think about like how do we revolutionize?
Advertising beyond painting on walls or in this day and age painting on a cell phone like yep. Yep. Just like making sure
Yeah, you're so right. There's probably a new way to do it, right? So
The okay, so back to the marketing of malls
so
obviously after kind of painting on walls
Fazed out the course of invent of course the invention of printing came
So then we started utilizing pamphlets and newspapers
For the shopping mall so their marketing strategy really revolved
I'm sorry, I'm jumping around a little bit. So I'm just gonna kind of piece this together
So one yes, but the start of mall advertising happened in ancient Greece
They painted on walls to kind of get people to come to their markets
And then fast forward kind of like the industrial era
We started printing and then there's you can run ads and newspapers and pan you can hand pamphlets and leaflets
Yeah, now the marketing of malls in the 1950s was really structured around
Find everything you need in one place. It's worth the drive
So they started pushing out this message in every single
Platform that they could so a lot of it was televised radio
That was they really relied heavily on this messaging
and
It was all about this is worth the drive like trying to get people like
It's worth it to come here get everything you need. That's kind of the messaging get everything you need
I am going to chat you a link right now
And this is a you to or this is a mall commercial that I found and I love it from the 80s
Could not be more
It's so funny. We're talking about I mean
I don't know if you've seen the new season of stranger things too
But it is all set in or I think it was the previous season or something like that
It was all set in a mall, right?
Exactly the first thing I thought of was oh the golden age of the 1980s and then I went to stranger things
Oh, yeah, it took place in a mall. Oh
The Syracuse nostalgia presents, huh? Okay. Oh, Jesus. Are we watching it together? Yeah, let's watch it together
I got a skip and add
Okay
I'm terrified I accidentally let it play like ten seconds in
Why were doll why are dolls so terrifying?
Okay, so go ahead and play it. This is a Fayetteville mall commercial in 1986 New York
Watch Christmas come alive with storybook scenes in Santa visit to light up little faces
You'll find gifts for friends and family something for him and something for her gifts from high tech to high fashion
Exciting toys and Christmas is everywhere and it's there at Fayetteville mall
Interesting I love it
And it really did like throw me back to a bit of nostalgia
Like it was so nice to go to the oops another mall commercial is playing
Hold up. Oh
No, I'm in the algorithm. I mean I'm in the algorithm. It's stuck. Um, oh, yeah
Yeah, so this commercial just kind of it's around its structure
It's centered around Christmas time and it says come to the mall
You can get everything you need in one place so you can send your kid to the Santa's workshop
While you go shop for high tech
We also have high and luxury or high designer fashion or whatever they said
So again, it's just pushing that message. It's too
What was it? Mm-hmm. I said and hess is to I was just singing the song, you know, yeah, I don't know
They said they said it in there. I said it in the commercial. I don't know what hess is
So it was kind of yeah, it was once again pushing that message of get everything you need in one place
Um
So that was kind of the mall the mall marketing of the 90s the 80s
Yeah, I'd oh sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt but can I I'll add like I do think it's interesting that they centered it around
Like visiting Santa and it's kind of speaking to our oh, am I jumping ahead? Oh?
I like that call out. That's why I pointed. Yeah, so I think like it's like here's some shops
But also like visit Santa was prominently featured in that ad like go bring your kids. It's not about shopping
It's going to like have an experience with Santa and your kids see them bright up
And then you can also get all of this stuff
In addition to all your Christmas shopping in one place. Yep
and
The buying power of children did yeah, it goes back to our
Podcast about that. It's like as long as your child is happy you can shop for as long as you want or maybe they could even
um
Persuade you to buy something that you normally wouldn't buy so I think the mall
Had this idea of the buying power of children before that was even really a thing. I
Completely agree. They know like if they if the families go there and the kids like you know
What's there's like always like a candy store in a mall to
Like like they would just go in there and yeah, I'll sugar it up. Yeah
Yep, it's it's incredible. So it was really trying to connect customers with brands
But also getting them involved in events and
organized by local communities and
Those are kind of the two main aspects behind shopping mall marketing. I
Found this quote in the Atlantic that I really liked they said
Malls are prison for commerce, but at least the commerce stays inside them
You can leave it again
So as strange as it may sound the mall also allowed people to leave
Commercialism behind like a casino is designed to contain and focus risk
So a mall is designed to do it for expenditures and I just thought that was yeah, I thought that was such a great call out
I completely agree, but is it really like is it really the case because we live consumerism in America now?
Yeah, yeah, it's like you leave them all and they're still like subsidiary stores all around it, right?
Absolutely not contained anymore
But I think in the case of this like big, you know golden era where we saw this video take place in the
1986 that was the idea
And it was like a field trip like you get to experience all of this
But then you can leave it behind when it's time to like go back to your real life now. We're inundated by
Consumerism and shopping and I think that maybe now that we're discussing this
I think that leads to the decline of it too. It's not this like
experience anymore by any means because you can go to target and get the same thing
It's in targets are in strip malls and they're on every single corner
I don't know you can just get the things that you need anywhere. You don't have to go to a mall
so it really it really a
Kind of minimalizes the experience that a mall initially set out to have yeah
Can can I ask you kind of a question too and we can cut it if I'm throwing you off?
But like let's say you like are a store owner like you you run like a retail shop
What would be in 86?
Let's say what would be your benefit to like buying store space in a mall like I think like that's a big piece of the mall like
They lease the store space. What would be the attraction for you to say?
I need to be in this mall if you're running the store. I think the first thing would be brand awareness
You you might not have an opportunity to
spend money on marketing and advertising
On billboards or commercials or radio
But in a mall you're capturing all of that foot traffic. That's already there to see other stores
I do want to mention too that the mall structure is always the same
big department stores anchor malls and then the middle of it is kind of inundated with your
Spencer's or your pack sons or your
Francesca's like your smaller and then you have the food court
So the anchors of the mall is kind of the main attraction like let's go to a Macy's and then you experience other
Smaller stores so hands-down brand awareness and capture traffic that you normally wouldn't see
But that allure is gone now right like there's not a lot of foot traffic. So
Yeah, it's kind of
Turned on its head right interesting. I would have asked you though, although it did work for hesses
That was it that was in the commercial we would draw and neither of us know what the fuck has it is
So swinging a miss on that and poor hesses will have to figure out that'll be in our recap next week
Maybe there's still like, you know the last remaining blockbuster
Maybe there's like a last remaining hesses out there that we just don't know about
Yeah, I know that would be amazing. I depends what they sell. I don't know. I don't know like I hope it's like really something classy like a men's
Like suit store or something, you know, like something dairy
Handmade yeah, I like that I like that because that was my thing with malls is like they were in when I was young
They were inundated with like female clothing like Claire as you mentioned Claire's like a lot of female specific
clothing stores and not a lot of like, you know, I mean PacSun had like male and female, right?
But like not a ton of like
guy
focused right like stores it was I always felt a little excluded on the clothing front
You know white man feels excluded people you heard it was a hard
It was a hard upbringing. I went to malls and didn't speak like it didn't feel like they were speaking directly to me
It was a tough it was a tough spot to be in as a straight white male. It was hard
All right, right
Start a group he needs it. He needs a month
Yes
You actually I mean I joke but that is really fascinating. I never thought about that
Yeah, it's just a lot of female centric and yeah
I
Did you enjoy buying clothes for yourself? Like did you enjoy going? I?
Actually did and I do think I do think and maybe this is a topic we can elaborate on because I mean
The original intent was a social hub of the city
And I think as they morphed in our age in the 90s and early 2000s as they start to decline
it'd be not a full social like community spot, but
It's still a social hub for like teenagers, right?
Like when we were growing up like something resonated with teens to like go hang out at the mall like go hang out at the mall so
You know I
I'd love to buy and close for myself at that age because it was like that rebellious like I want to do it
Like I want to pick my own fashion. I want to see how I you know
I want to buy the cool things and you know Hollister and whatever it was like at the time
Like you did want to buy your own clothes, so I felt I did yeah
I think that's a missed opportunity on malls parts because um, you know
I my brother liked buying his own clothes like he enjoys I don't know retail shopping to yeah
Whereas I think like the general consensus of men is like that you don't enjoy shopping, but maybe that's not true
I mean this is a focus group of two you and my brother
I'm sure you both enjoy shopping. Yeah. I enjoy it. You know, maybe they were thinking maybe they didn't understand the buying powers of teens
At the time because like you know
I think of like my dad's generation and your dad's generation and they were very much like I mean
They wear the same shirt, you know
They have the same design shirt seven different times and like not a lot of fashion choices in that job
and maybe they're focusing on that generation of men that they're like yeah suits and
Polo tees and that's about it, right like and and I think our generation was kind of new we were exploring
And I think Gen Z is even more like the their fashion is big, right?
So maybe let's go back to my original question back in the
2000s when you saw this decline of them all and all they did was just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger
Maybe the solution was to start innovating what stores were actually in there and like start introduce
Start actually figuring out who enjoys shopping and your demographic. Don't just keep multiplying
Spencer's
Yeah, don't keep my orange Julius is like I agree. You know the other one that bothered me
I've seen him in every mall who the fuck by sportsy
Whatever you say the crystal company score Schwartz key crystals
Who goes to a mall to buy?
Like who goes to a mall to buy like you'd always pass the stores and they're gorgeous and glittering and I'm like
Who the fuck goes in there to buy crystals at a mall?
Swarovski what I don't fucking know some
For Swarovski, I don't know it has the little swan logo like that's all I do
That's all I know. Did you just see me like do the outline of this one as you were saying that?
Great brand great brand identity
Swarovski because we can't pronounce your name, but we do know your logo small yes
And I know their stores. They were always so glittery and pretty but like who would who would do that in a mall?
You know, they're not crystals there. It's a jewelry store. No, it's like crystals
Isn't it isn't it's whatever the name is Swartz key whatever whatever crystals is what it is, right?
Well, we'll follow up to the
Conversation in Swarovski. We'll get back. Yeah, but even to expand they have K like K jewelers and like jewelry stores like I
Any guy that went to get an engagement ring at a mall maybe like, you know, double-think your life choices
Like maybe there's a better option for you out there like
K-Jewelers is like really pushing marketing these days, so I feel like K-Jewelers is I don't know
They have the pulse on the radar. Maybe they're onto something. I don't know
Maybe they know something I don't but like I would never like go to the mall and then like go to Spencer's and be like
Oh, maybe I should pick up an engagement ring
Yeah, like yeah
If you if you were thinking about getting engaged and you brought your girl to pick out an engagement ring at K-Jewelers
I would fucking leave you
like done
It's like it's like the casco of jewelry, right?
Yeah, it's like just a little more thought and effort into something important goes a long way, right?
It's not just like get it done. Yep. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. Um, okay. I
Love this I didn't think this would be a very long podcast, but it turns out that we have a lot of feelings about malls. I
Agree, I have a lot of feelings about a lot of things. Yeah, yeah
So let's talk about now
now
Really beyond just shifting consumer habits from the department store because that's kind of what we're seeing right now
Like people are kind of over the department store
But you have to keep in mind that the whole idea of a mall was for this third place
For people to live and hang out but in the two thousands what happened to that idea
What happened to this idea of the third place? Yes, Zach the smartphone happened
So that third place for people to hang out not only shifted away
Like people were over the department stores a while ago
But now they've got a new place to hang out. So the mall is becoming obsolete. Oh
So you would say the malls even competing with like social media and like online like
Fascinating as you go back to the original concept. Yeah
This is a place to hang out and feel good and get an escape
But a really in this day and age escapism happens in your cell phone, which is you know
We talk about it in every in every podcast we could go down a tangent
Yeah, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of things wrong with it, but that is what it is
interesting an
Article from the LA Times made a good call out saying that the mall was an accurate representation of
Fashion and pop culture at the time. So if you saw Jessica Simpson wearing a bucket hat
You could go buy that bucket hat at limited to but it's just not reflective of that anymore
It's just junk. It is it's knick-knacks. It's I agree. I agree
The mall itself is unimaginably smaller than what you can find on the internet
And not in a curated sense, right? Like not in a boutique. You have a fucking Spencer's at every single mall
Nobody needs a Spencer's
No, I agree and do you know what Spencer's is? Am I just like? No, no, I'm very aware what Spencer's everyone
You should know what Spencer's is it's like kind of like hot topic mixed with like dad gifts mixed with like I don't
Costs toys. Yeah, you can buy like you can buy like bloody Halloween costumes there. That's where you went to become a nurse
I don't know I feel like maybe I'm gonna be like a nurse
I don't know I feel like I'm gonna be like a nurse
That's where you get that's where you get your nurse's certificate
Yeah, it's a wild place
Did you ever go well, like do you remember any purchases at Spencer's that you made I honestly think that like in college
And beyond that, I don't know. I feel like maybe I picked picked up a maybe a gag gift or two
But I could not there was like maybe two purchases from Spencer's in my life. Yeah
Yeah, I wasn't I wasn't I'm not a knick-knack person
But like I am a big t-shirt
I had a big like t-shirt phase and they did have like funny and pop culture t-shirts in there
So I do remember like going in like that wall of t-shirts, you know, and I'm talking graphic tea era
The graphic tea area, so I do remember like going in and picking out a few of those
Shot glasses like yeah, Pong stuff like I had like a little stuff like that
But no no big purchases at Spencer's. Yeah, definitely not when I was in high school by any means
I felt like maybe I explored Spencer's a little bit more when I was in
Yeah, definitely a college like frat boat bro thing
absolutely um
and
I think something else they called out in the LA Times and we've kind of tiptoed around is like at the end of the day in this
Day in era like people don't want to buy fashion
That's been dictated to them like malls curate stores and you on the internet
You have the opportunity to explore whatever you want
So you can find underground labels and truly sustainable companies like wherever you want to fit into culture
You can find that piece of the internet ready and waiting for you
Versus the mall in the 80s and the 90s that was the culture you had to fit into the mall culture in order to stand to fit in
But now it like you have all these corners of the internet where you could find culture
Yeah, it's almost like the death of the mannequin, you know what I'm saying people would like see
The clothes like on a mannequin and they'd be like yeah, that's the outfit. I want you're so right
But now you can like piece together your own style, right?
Wait, that's did you just did you just come up with the death of the mannequin or have you absolutely?
I know right on the spot right on the spot
Because it is at first I laughed but at first it's true because like I don't need a mannequin to show me what clothes
I like because I can see it on Rihanna
Yeah, Rihanna is a much better looking mannequin than any plastic toy, you know, it's like
You you want to buy from people and that's yes the bottom line
Yeah, and I agree and companies that are like I think it's it's now cooler to be like a niche niche company like you know
I can't speak for teenagers
but like the like going back to your dad like the label of Hollister that carried weight as a
Teenager our age is now looked at as like oh, that's a that's a lazy form of fashion, right?
Like yeah, I'm with you. I want to just quickly note that that
Comment is exactly what kicked off this whole idea
There is a documentary out on Netflix called white hot
Abercrombie
About Abercrombie and Fitch and how Abercrombie's marketing messaging was all centered around
whiteness total whiteness and
Down to the store level like they cared so much about the whiteness of their brand that they would not hire
people of color and and when they got sued for this they actually okay, they
Diversified their employees, but you know what they did they put people of color in the back
So the front-facing employees the cashiers would still be that whitewashed college bro frat bro
You know Connecticut looking person
Yeah, and then they put the people of color in the back stocking
Yeah, Abercrombie was one of the places I applied to when I was trying to work in the mall
I was like oh, this would be so trendy so cool and you're right even as a white man. I was turned away
I wasn't cool enough. I'm not like Connecticut white man, you know like I'm
I'm average
My husband
Managed in Abercrombie for a long time. I'm so happy. I know that about him now. Oh my god. Yes
So that's like a little point of pride like my husband was good-looking enough to work at an Abercrombie people
The manager of an Abercrombie manager. Yeah, they were like they were like you're you're white level too
I'm saying like you you're not just front like we're putting you in charge your two point. Oh
But I do want to say that he isn't he's only he's half German and half Japanese
So he walks up, you know, he really broke barriers back then he stood for the people of color
Okay, yeah, we're gonna that's a dangerous road for us to go down but good for good for him, you know
I'm proud of him
Make sure you keep that on his resume. Yeah, absolutely
But yeah, so the whole Abercrombie story just kind of fascinated me. Well, actually it didn't fascinate me
It was kind of obvious to me to be quite honest, but I was like, you know, what happened to malls
So that's kind of what kicked this whole thing off. But yes Abercrombie Hollister American Eagle like the staples of malls
Let's see here where well, I have one more thing with that
I mean the other brand that I think of with air Abercrombie is aeropostal, right?
Like and that that was like the big one and I do know like when I when I
Lived in Mexico for a little while like that was a hot hot brand to have like they would get all the unsold
Aeropostal stuff and like that was like in Mexican culture like that was like the nice
Nice clothes to have so it is interesting even how it's it may be deflating here
I don't think it's done that with the rest of the world yet. I think it's still pretty prevalent. Oh
Yeah, it's fascinating
Well, that guy that has to be our third follow-ups. We got Hesses. We got Abercrombie and we have Swarovski
Swarovski, Swarovski, Swarovski, Swarovski, Swarovski, whatever they do. Another call-out is this booming
industry of vintage and
Resale fashion so people don't want to look like they are wearing crisp clothes anymore. That is a thing of the past
You know someone was quoted in the LA Times the same article just saying like I don't want to look like I'm wearing a shirt
That I just got out of the package if I get if someone asked me where I got it
I want to be able to have a story to tell and I find that very true about myself. I
Love when someone compliments some sort of clothing items. I love being able to be like yeah
I dug this out of a barrel at Goodwill. Thank you
I love that like a lot of me and my friends have a lot of like clothing exchanges
So it's cool to also be like yeah, I could pick this up from my girlfriends, you know
Like you have a clothing exchange party like you all get together just bring a bunch of clothes and like it's like the Tupperware version
Of 32 year old no, no, no, it's not a party. It just kind of like
Happens like maybe well the latest one one of my girlfriends was like
I have a ton of shit that I need to get rid of do you guys want to go through it and then that kind of spawned something
Everyone's like I also have a ton of shit. Hey, I have a ton of shit and so we brought all of our shit together and exchange shit
Amazing that's a great idea. That's a fun party
Come on men. Let's have more fun together. Like why why do we have to like?
Sit around and talk sports all day like let's let's do some clothes exchanges. I'd be I did treat me
I want to roll that into the male culture a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm down
I think that's a great idea. Thanks. I thought you were gonna make fun of me for it
No, I mean that was my initial plan, but then you explained it and now I'm like, oh, okay like
I
Get it. Yeah, I'm always down to listen. I
Also, just love it because it's like
It's just another way to save the planet, you know, I'm never ending hunts. I have my soapbox here
Don't need and don't buy fast fashion. Okay
Let's see new clothing is a saturated mark. Okay moving on
Hmm
thrift and consignment endeavors are a booming industry
It in I'm sorry. And I think it was 2018
It was an 18 billion dollar economy that's set to balloon to a 33 billion dollar economy. So
how much do you credit that growth to Macklemore and
And
Zero I
Are you sure not even like 2% not even like come on
I'm not gonna lie because what that album came out in
2012 or something which could be like
When I really started taking a look at thrift stores
Do maybe maybe like 2% right like it was like I I do remember like the thrift store
Like craze after the song thrift shop came out where it was like, oh, yeah, like let's go check out the thrift short store
I'm all I'm saying like it is like, you know, just like balls were pop culture a little a little hit song
Damn stores to if nothing else
Macklemore cook might have just saved our planet
He might not have made it very far in the music industry
He was a blip on the radar for two years, but holy shit. Did he have an impact on the
thing on climate change
Gretta Thurneberg and Macklemore
Leaders teams we need thought leader of our time. I don't know you might be right
I'm not counting it. I you know, I laughed at first, but now I'm kind of like, hmm
Maybe just like one or two percent not the entire thing. But like yeah. Yeah, and what's 1% of 18 billion like that
Yeah, like yeah, like a significant amount, right?
So Zach any chance of fixing them all?
That's a great question
Maybe you can think about that because I do have some bullet points. You know, I worked at Nordstrom and that is what I did
I pushed product. I was a producer in the beauty industry and
Sorry, not beauty industry, but the beauty department and we all we did day in and day out was make
Campaigns for the latest product and
Brands bought those placement. So every time you walk into a department store or the beauty
Department specifically because that's all I know and you see like an ad for the latest Chanel lipstick
And it's in the middle of the floor and you kind of have to walk around it and it's displaying all of Chanel's latest lipstick
They pay for that placement
So I think that contributes like that aspect of marketing definitely contributes
To the mall's growth where I should say Nordstrom's growth at the very least like you're getting a significant amount of money from that one placement
For a month. It was like twenty thousand dollars
But I think to just spin off of that like creating
Structures creating an environment
Creating a place where people want to go. So stop
pushing product down people's throats and
Like more is not better. So don't build more malls make them exclusive again potentially
And then use these spaces like these middle spaces in the mall as
Visual statements and while I was at Nordstrom, we had a whole team dedicated to
To this very thing. So you walk down. So there's like the beauty department and then underneath there's kind of like the men's
There was an entire department that had that had an ever-changing
Structure on a monthly basis installment. I should say so different light, you know, they would create like this cool place to go shop
And then we had another one on the upstairs level. So one month
It would be like hello kitty themed or something or one month. It would be like for dogs for pets
And they created this environment and so I thought that was really well done
And I think maybe something that malls currently can
Implement themselves. Yeah, I think that's I think that's a great call and I think I see too
I see it going either direction from where it's at right now. I love the idea of
Exclusivity like what if malls hired hired personal shoppers again, like you could go to the mall and maybe it's a
You know the small fee and you have like as someone that knows the mall that
listens to you and then you walk with them and you know, they
They help you choose different clothes and piece things together and go to the different stores like that kind of like exclusive
Personalized help would be helpful
But I also think in the other direction like if you can't you can't compete with e-commerce convenience, right?
Shopping in your sweatpants on your phone is
You can't as a mall, right? Like it's impossible where you might be able to get them is price point, right? Like if it's
if you reduce the price of
Products in the mall and it's cheaper it to just drive to the mall get it
Then it is our around line
Then you maybe drawing some people back is like maybe it's just like a discount
I don't think area. It's impossible. It's impossible. You can't you can't discount
Steeply enough to compete with e-commerce. I mean nothing is cheaper than
Amazon right now, you know and like Amazon's customer service the two-day turnaround. So I actually
Respectfully disagree with anything you said
Well, at least you put respectfully in front of it some my feelings aren't hurt at all, you know
Here's my thing
I love that you brought that up though
And this is why we're great business partners is like you think about things that I don't and then I kind of come around to him
So, you know, we could continue having this conversation offline and maybe I might come around to it
But I hate the idea of a personal shopper hate it. Yeah, this is your Midwest nature and my like very sheltered West
Like I hate everybody nature
You're like, yeah, I want to talk to someone like walk me through the mall and I'm like absolutely not like let me do this myself
Hey, yeah, hey, they have a personal shopper
And then the discount
You just you can't compete on that level. So I think in my opinion, this is what I would do
This is kind of my suggestion back at my initial question. Yeah, I'm gonna bring it full circle. I think
We talked a lot about the repetitive nature and the redundancy of
These malls, you know when you walk into a mall in California
You're gonna have the same shops if you walk into a mall in New York
So I go back to this exclusivity where you revolutionize the stores that are actually in there
Introduce stores to people that they would not normally find like I don't want to see another abacrombie
I don't want to see another
American Eagle I've seen it before I know what they have to offer show me a
Sustainable brand that I have never found before, you know or instead of Lulu lemon
Can you provide me an alternative to leggings or athleisure wear?
I want alternatives to mainstream and I think that's what initially the mall
Well, no, I don't see I don't think that that's what it set out to do
But I think we can pivot to that
I think the mall should become an alternative to mainstream instead of being mainstream
Yeah, I love that. So let me flip that. I completely agree with you and then so let me flip the script
Let's say you're like a niche e-commerce company
Um, who's you know sustainable clothing and you're doing well in the e-commerce front. What's what's a mall?
Have to do to pitch you to buy a brick-and-mortar placement like why why why would you draw a brick-and-mortar placement?
right stores around me so
And this is kind of what I have this I even got going on this. I was like damn we should invest in a mall
Because okay, so I went to this place like a cosmetic
Dermatologist in Bellevue
Seattle right Bellevue is its own city
But Bellevue Washington and Bellevue is known to be like the
Frufru city like that is where all the Cougars hang out. That's where people have a lot of that's where a lot of people have a lot of money
So there is this place it was a cosmetic dermatologist and in that place
There was a fitness center and then a juice bar and I was like, oh my god
I want to hang out here all day. So just kind of expanding on that idea to provide
Services in addition to little things that can like you know, you're there for cosmetic dermatology
Maybe there's a unique makeup store. It's not Sephora. It's not fucking Ulta
It's a unique. It's Fenty, you know, Rihanna's brand or it's Morphe or you know, it's a unique brand
That you haven't heard of before but they offer sustainable sustainable, you know vegan product, you know
It's like you want the whole experience
So if I was if I was somewhere if I was a company that was just living in the e-commerce world and a mall pitched me and said
Hey, we're gonna have this lineup of stores and guess what in the middle
We're gonna have a yoga studio. So people are not only coming here to shop
They're coming here to exercise and everything that your brand stands for we're going to offer that in this place
so I think malls just kind of I
Start to build their own brand. It's no longer like Fayetteville shopping center. Yeah, it's Fayetteville
But what does Fayetteville bring to you? It's yeah, they local
local
Handmade, you know and not all of them have to be this like that girl aesthetic. They can be you know artisan
Yeah, I think you know catering to sorry. I'm getting like really hype now
You're buying me. We're winning me over a hundred percent. Okay. So this is where I ask you for money
How much do you want to invest? I'm just kidding
No, but I do want to say like I think you're exactly on the right track because what in our generation
Especially and and the younger generation
What is seeing the huge rise is farmer markets like farmers markets like go into the farmers markets go into these and it is like
Little niche like they just have little tents. I went to one last weekend where it was like little jewelry stores
They're still charging 80 bucks a pop for like a necklace, right? But like it is something that you it's a brand that you don't know
It's like it's local. You talk to the designer you talk to the owner
That I agree because farmers markets are on the rise and malls are on the decline and it's because it's it's a McDonald's of shopping
Right, you can go to a McDonald's in Cali in New York and get the same thing. Yeah, yeah
And Victor Gruen is like you guys totally bastard eyes this my idea of a mall by putting in a KFC
Like what are you doing putting in a KFC? I wanted it to be this cosmopolitan
Yep, and and so that's kind of the mall evolved into this
bastard child
Yeah, and I just think about like even still like the
Chicago where I'm at like we have the the
Michigan Avenue like it's it's like them. I think they call it the miracle mile and it is like
Burberry coach like huge like forever 21 is like five stories. They have the world's biggest Starbucks there
It's like a five-story Starbucks. Why do you know world's biggest Starbucks?
Like what more can you offer me than like the seven drinks on the menu? Oh, it's like specialty items
And like they have a full alcoholic bar too. So you could like go and like get an espresso martini. They have like
Special reserve Starbucks in there. It's yeah, yeah, yeah
It is actually there is one in Seattle and I love I don't I go I went to it
Maybe once but like it does feel very posh walking in there. Yeah, but you're still ordering the same thing
You're still ordering like a microwave egg sandwich. Yeah
I'm doing it and I'm paying a dollar extra for it. Yep, and it's worth it. Yeah, the pikes play Seattle one
Like it's five dollars extra. Yeah
But it is like but it is like and the people that live here are like, oh
Michigan Avenue, but like it's a tourist destination, right?
Like people come from all over the Midwest to go shopping. It's it's a madhouse at Christmas, right? Like it is
And it works right it works. I don't know man
Yeah, but I just think I think the mall can evolve into I think brick-and-mortar needs to evolve in
Itself people are sick of seeing the same stores over and over and over again
So let's fucking get Abercrombie onto e-commerce and get girlfriend leggings
into malls
Shout out girlfriend leggings. I know I always shout out girlfriend leggings. I'm wearing them right now
But um, yeah, it's just something it's like a leg and company that it's sustainable
It's made out of plastic water bottles that people don't know about
I'm sure they're they do have an audience like they're pretty popular, but it's like I want to see that
I don't want to see a lululemon like I've seen it. I'm done. I want to be introduced to something more so I
Completely agree. Let's just revelate Luciana is the idea of brick-and-mortar
Entirely and I think malls can survive. I think malls have a chance if we get Spencer's out and girlfriends in
Yeah, and what about I mean even is let's just say like you do have like let's say forever 21, right?
Like you do have an e-commerce platform, but you also have the brick-and-mortar
What's here in like your gut reaction to forever 21 saying hey like you can promote it on your website
Like here's a new shirt, but it's only available in brick-and-mortar to try to get people to like go to like you have
Way interesting tactic
Yeah, like you have exclusive items that you have to go to the brick-and-mortar store for
Instead of offering everything you can online, right?
I love that idea and I am I'm actually just like now
I'm spitball and because you talked about like there's like a selfie museum and there's the Museum of Ice Cream where people cannot get enough
Of that shit and you know what it is
It's just like a whole room painted pink and it's monochromatic and you have a pink couch
Like how hard is that to replicate in a brick-and-mortar store? You know, it's not very hard
So you create this whole experience in Seattle. There was a Glossier pop-up
The line and I was working at Nordstrom at the time
So we all went as a team the line was around the block waiting to go into this Glossier pop-up
Why I can buy Glossier online, but they created this pop-up experience where there was you know
Greenery in the windows like they had this I mean to your point. They had like a personal personalized
Shopper coming up to you and greeting you and walking you through all the stuff and it's
Um, so I think the space itself
Needs to feel yeah, not just the mall, but the stores in the mall need to make you want to take a picture of yourself
Yeah, I agree like I went to the
Girl I went to the Glossier pop-up in Seattle here. I am and then you create a fandom
Yeah, I agree like you have those little I think even if they you know now I spitball into even if it's not like you get these
These localized because the the issue that I saw with getting like these brands that you've never heard of is
I think the novelty will wear off right like you go the first time and you're like, oh, I've never heard of this brand
You go in there. You love the stuff girlfriend leggings. Oh, this is sustainable. You buy some there next time
Are you you're just gonna go to the website and be like, yo, I want more of them, right?
So what about you know, what about like, you know, these brands just kind of coming and going so every time you go to the mall
It's a little bit of a new experience, right?
Like you maybe are there like brands just kind of like if it's if malls allow brands to rent out a space a storefront for a month
And it's like we're here for one month come in here get these exclusive pop-ups
And then they're gone and then you come back next time and it's a new brand and like it's always it's kind of this
Evolving shifting experience rather than just set in stone. You're gonna get Schwartz secret stoles or whatever
Could not be more of a fan of this idea, but I also want to kind of combat the original argument, which is like
People can go and get introduced to girlfriend leggings, but then buy it online
but my theory my
Proposal is to put in something that keeps people coming back like a yo
Yeah, like a juice bar like a wellness center like oh my god, if you just name anything wellness
Your white girl is gonna like
You know you get it. So like all the white girls are gonna be like yes wellness sign me up
So
That experience getting people a juice bar
So replace the orange Julius with something healthy like RX bars or something. Yeah, I don't know
There's just so many ways to innovate
There's so many cool companies out there that I don't understand why the malls still have a Macy's and a Sears
Yeah, heard at both sides
You could I don't know I think you're exactly right and so like in our mall
Let's let's say the Caitlyn and Zach mall that we're gonna build
In an ideal world built for the future instead of anchors as department stores
We have anchors that are like a gym a yoga studio like community
Community things right like that is the anchor and then in the shops in the middle are shifting
I think that's the mall of the future right like you just have little pop-ups there that are gonna come and go
So you have these anchors that draw the community in not for retail
But for but for like community engagement back to the original vision
Yeah, and then you have this kind of living organism of stores in the middle
That's not just stagnant but always something new and
Moving and I love that. I love that I
Think I have nothing else to add
I feel like we have built this utopian future of the mall and I just want to leave on a good note before either one of
Us fucks it all up. So yep
It'll get bastardized enough the utopian vision of the mall has been made
We're trademarking it so don't steal it from us
But if investors are out there and they'd like to invest in our idea, please get ahold of us or join our Facebook group
The best plug I'm gonna let you know I'll let you finish the plug but my god, that was brilliant. That was amazing
Our our Facebook group is manipulating the masses
podcast and we will put I have a ton of awesome 1986
1980s mall commercials that I'm gonna submit. I hope to find my old glamour shots
So you guys can see those I am very young so be nice
Yeah, don't put too hard, but you can make fun and that's it. That's all she wrote