1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,480 Hi, I'm Zach and this podcast had side effects of burping, laughing, chugging, historical laughter. 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:14,240 Ask your doctor if this podcast is right for you. I don't know. No, I liked it. I liked it. 3 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:22,320 That was good. Hello, I'm Caitlin and today we're talking big pills, big pharma, and big money. 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:28,800 Oh, big, big, big. I love it. Big money, emphasis on the money, right? And welcome to 5 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:37,680 manipulating the masses. Don't give yourselves to brutes, men who despise you and slave you, 6 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,160 who regiment your lives, tell you what to do, what to think, or what to feel, who drill you, 7 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:47,680 diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural 8 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:54,400 men, machine men, with machine minds and machine hearts. You are not machines, you are not cattle, 9 00:00:54,400 --> 00:01:05,440 you the people have the power. Yeah, yo. Yes. All right. Poppin' pills. Yes. Getting thrills. 10 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:11,360 Let's do it. Oh, I like that. We're going to be talking about the marketing tactics deployed 11 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:18,800 by pharmaceutical companies. So on that note, Zach, do you have any of your favorite drug ads 12 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:27,040 handy? Yes, I actually like I have them in my head. I didn't pull them up. I have, I'm going to be 13 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:36,400 honest, 99.9% of these I despise with like a fiery passion. I hate that I hate them. I despise them 14 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:43,120 all the way through. But the one that I can remember is Osempic. It's like a heartburn pill. 15 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:50,880 And it's just, it was just, oh, oh, oh, oh, Osempic. You know, exactly as soon as I was singing it, 16 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:59,200 you rang in. And I think that was like, you know, quality as like, you know, bottom of the barrel. 17 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:05,520 It's like reality TV quality. You know, like it's not going to win any awards, but there are better 18 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:11,360 reality TV's than other ones. That would be the one that I have. So that's the one that's stuck out 19 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:17,120 in your mind when I asked you. Yeah, it's funny because I didn't recognize that name at all. I was 20 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:23,680 like, Oh, that must be a Midwest drug that they're marketing. But then you sang the jingle and I just 21 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:30,640 have to confirm I have to double down on the power of the jingle. I completely agree. I completely 22 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:38,160 agree. I don't have any specific ads. I mean, I do. There's like the one with the depression. 23 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:45,680 And she has a frowny face. She holds up the sign in front of her face. But I also just think of like 24 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:51,840 gold when golden fields and like families running out in fields like that imagery 25 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:58,640 is directly associated forever with like erectile dysfunction. 26 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:05,920 Because I was going to say my other one was Cialis, the erectile dysfunction one where they 27 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:10,320 had the couple like holding hands in the separate bathtub. Do you remember that? And they're like 28 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:15,200 sitting on a beach. You don't remember those old ones. They would just like hold hands in a bathtub. 29 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:21,920 And I like that was all about yeah, you'd stick not really needing some help needed assistance. 30 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:32,000 Yeah, yeah, you always needed in the bathtub. Good for him. Good for him. Yeah, so it's those 31 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:38,880 ones stick out to me, but you're so right. Like most of them are just b-roll happiness. And I'd 32 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:44,720 say one that I hate right off the bat and it goes into the jingle ad as well is there's I forget 33 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:51,040 the name Sky Rizzy, I think is the pill and it's for you know, some skin issues, but that dumb 34 00:03:51,040 --> 00:04:00,640 ass jingle nothing is everything. Oh, that does not make sense. Why would what are you doing that 35 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:07,520 has nothing to do with anything? It's just like yeah, it sticks in your head, but I hate it. I 36 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:14,720 hate it. I hate it. I hate it. What does that even mean? I just have to also maybe expand on the jingle. 37 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,960 Like while yes, the jingle is effective because you just saying that and I was like, oh yes, 38 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:25,360 Sky Rizzy 100%. But as soon as you say the name before you recite the jingle, I don't know any 39 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:31,040 of these drugs. I don't know what they do. And the jingle to your point, I had never thought 40 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:38,160 about the jingle or the words like the lyrics, but they don't make any sense. No, for the skin, 41 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:46,080 like what? No, get out of here. So let's for a second give hats off to the composer of the 42 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:56,160 jingles. But the lyrics and the language gets an F in our book. Right off the book. All right, 43 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,440 so let's dive into the history of pharmaceutical companies. And I think what got me started thinking 44 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,800 about this, obviously, I think it got all of America started thinking about the marketing 45 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:15,760 behind pharmaceutical companies is of course, Purdue Pharma. Purdue is directly responsible for the 46 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,960 opioid epidemic. And I'm going to get into that a little bit. I'm going to breach the surface of 47 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:28,720 the opioid epidemic to kind of jog some memories here. But I won't get too far into it. The ground 48 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:36,560 work for the crisis was laid in the 1980s when pain increasingly became recognized as a problem. 49 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:47,280 This was back in 1980. And in 1995, the American Pain Society, which there's actually, that's 50 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:54,640 actually my band name too. Interesting enough. Well, double interesting enough, it was an 51 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:02,560 organization in Chicago, Illinois. So you might have pain in Chicago. A lot of pain. So this was 52 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:09,840 in 1995, the American Pain Society was a physician's organization launched a campaign that framed pain 53 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:16,640 as a fifth vital sign that should be monitored and managed as a matter of course, in the same way 54 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:21,040 as a heart rate and blood pressure. So just picture yourself going to the doctor. They check your 55 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,200 blood pressure, ears, your eyes, like make sure that you are a living, breathing human being and 56 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,160 everything is good. But then they ask you about your pain tolerance, which I don't even know where 57 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:37,040 to begin unpacking this like pain to me is so it's subjective. It's not like like a heart rate is a 58 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:42,800 number on a device that you can say, okay, you have heart problems or no, you don't have heart 59 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:50,160 problems. And pain is subjective. And like the blood pressure on this metrics too, but I still 60 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,440 don't know what it means when they say it to me. They're like 20 or over, but I'm like, okay, I 61 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,400 guess I should learn that as we get older. Yeah, I found out the other day I have low blood pressure 62 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,000 and she was like, did you know that? I was like, no, because I never nobody took time to explain 63 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,600 what these numbers meant. You have low blood pressure, you do not give me a low blood pressure 64 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:19,040 vibe, Caitlin. That's a little surprising to me. You know, congratulations. But like, yeah, but 65 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:26,240 I'm surprised. What are we gonna say? Well, let me let me give you what low blood pressure means. 66 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,480 And you'll be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense as I'm wearing a hooded jacket right now, when it's 67 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,320 like 70 degrees in here. It means that you naturally run cold and you get dizzy spells when you 68 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:41,520 stand up. That's all like low blood pressure is. It's not like you're I just thought you were like 69 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:48,080 chill like you never because like stress, right? Okay, that was such a backhanded couple like 70 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,840 such a backhanded insult was just like, you don't strike me as the low blood pressure person. And 71 00:07:53,840 --> 00:08:01,520 to me, low blood pressure associates chill vibes. You are not chill vibes. I mean, I'll take it. 72 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,520 You know, that's is a good thing, Caitlin. It's a balance because I'm which I'm the opposite. They 73 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:13,920 always tell me I have high blood pressure. You do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also hate doctors 74 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,880 offices. So like I credit it like I've done it at home and it says it's fine. But like doctors 75 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:24,240 offices, I just like the sterleness the whole thing, I like get a little freaked out in there. 76 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:31,120 So yeah, that's my credit. But I would say, I don't know, I just tried to deflect from my back 77 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:40,160 hand. Sorry, Caitlin. I mean, I will take it sometimes I'm a little bit of a sporadic person 78 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:46,080 who creates unnecessary fires, but a lot of times I don't I would say you're focused, right? Like I 79 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,760 do not could I do not contribute chill with focused people. You're not like that does not 80 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,680 you're you're driven. Yes. Look at me do that. Yeah. Thank you. We'll leave it at that. 81 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:06,800 For everyone listening. You heard it here first. Zach thinks I'm driven. That's the 82 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,680 that is the full circle point of that conversation. I'm a driven individual. All right, moving on. 83 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:19,760 So right to the mid 90s, they started that like literally diagnosing and asking patients about 84 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:25,440 their pain, which to me is ludicrous because I understand chronic pain is an actual 85 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:32,320 illness. People suffer through chronic pain. Do I understand chronic pain? No, I don't. So I don't 86 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:39,920 even want to get into that. But for you as a doctor to leave it up to the patient is ludicrous to me. 87 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Yeah, because my pain tolerance is very different than your pain tolerance. 88 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:50,880 Yes. Yes. And isn't there but isn't there like a scientific way to test that yet? Like because 89 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,600 really it's just like nerves sending information to your brain, right? If there's a lot of nerve 90 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,840 activity, then there's probably I don't know. I'm not this is why this is where pharmaceutical 91 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:04,160 companies get us ask your doctor. I'm not a fucking doctor. I don't know. I'm just you could have 92 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:09,040 sold me on that. I think that was like your marketing language coming out a little bit like 93 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:15,280 nerves equal firing to the brain, which equals pain nailed it. Yeah. I mean, that's like, I don't 94 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,920 know. Okay, you're right though. Sorry, I keep distracted. I keep I keep putting us on tangents, 95 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:26,240 but you're right. Like it's all even perception isn't there like you can have like false pain, 96 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,440 right? If you're just like totally is like just focusing on or nervous about it, right? 97 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:43,760 Totally. So in the mid 1900s, the mid 1990s, Purdue Pharma released what the legendary pill, 98 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:50,960 OxyContin, and began promoting their opioid products heavily. All right. So that was it all 99 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:57,760 began with Purdue Pharma. It all began with opioids. How did they do it? How did they market this 100 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:03,760 product heavily? Actually, maybe I'll toss it to you. If you were in that seat, how would you go 101 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:12,000 ahead and market an opioid to an industry that hadn't previously used opioids? Yeah, that's a 102 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:19,360 great question. I said two pronged approach, right? First is, and I know they did this. So like, 103 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:25,840 I'm cheating a little bit, but sending sales reps to doctors offices to get doctors to prescribe. 104 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:31,120 I mean, especially if you have close competitors that do similar effects like C. Alice in Viagra, 105 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,920 right? Like they both have the desired effects. It's up to the doctor to write the prescription, 106 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:40,720 right? So they have the license, you go to them, you market to them, you woo them to sell more 107 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:51,120 OxyContin over competitors. The other piece is you, we see it all the time, a marketing campaign, 108 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:57,840 promoting benefits, promoting happy living targeted at people with chronic pain, with what I consider 109 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:03,840 to be one of the best call to action tag lines ever created in advertising. Ask your doctor if 110 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:13,760 this is right for you. So you're prompting them to ask about their specific product in the doctor's 111 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:21,280 office. So that was my two. Yep, nailed it. And so you went with you market direct to consumer and 112 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:27,760 you market direct to the person prescribing, which is exactly what Purdue did. They lobbied 113 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:34,720 lawmakers. So they have people on the inside. They sponsored continuing medical education courses. 114 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,680 They funded professional and patient organizations. And of course, what you just mentioned, they sent 115 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:47,440 representatives to visit individual doctors. So they were taking what like you said, the education 116 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,880 course, then they went to the lawmakers, and then they went to the doctors, and then they went direct 117 00:12:52,880 --> 00:13:00,240 to consumer. I have a question. Oh, do you know? Oh, go ahead. Sorry. No, I was just going to say 118 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:07,520 their marketing message was emphasizing, like you said, not the benefits, but the safety and 119 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:14,720 efficacy and the low potential for addiction of prescription opioids. Wow. They specifically 120 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:21,040 put that in the messaging. Oh, wow. There is low potential for addiction. And they backed it up 121 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:27,600 with some sort of bullshit study. Yeah. Yeah. What was your question? I have a question. Do you 122 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:34,000 know what they lobbied lawmakers for? Was it like subsidies to like try to get the government to like, 123 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,600 you know, how they subsidize like different medications? And so it's cheaper for the consumer 124 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,680 to buy? Is that do you think that's what they lobbied lawmakers for was, hey, subsidize this 125 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:51,360 this, this America's in pain subsidizes painkiller. And so it's cheaper on the consumer end, which makes 126 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,760 it more feasible. They still make the same amount of money because the government subsidizing it. 127 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:05,040 Do you do you know what that is? That is a fantastic call out. I don't know. But in my research, 128 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,720 that did come about where it was like opioids at face value to the consumer are super cheap 129 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:19,120 because insurance companies cover this. And lawmakers, of course, have a decision in what 130 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,000 insurance covers and what they don't cover. So I think you're spot on. I think that was the lobbying 131 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:36,080 aspect of it. Crazy, crazy. So they're because they were advertising the low potential for addiction, 132 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:41,200 of course, they got doctors on their side, which was really the big ticket for them. 133 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:49,200 Purdue, Pharma focus, the initial marketing of OxyContin on suburban and rural white communities. 134 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:59,920 That strategy took advantage of the prevailing image of drug addict as an African American or 135 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,560 Hispanic person who lived in the inner city. And I think this was the most genius thing that they 136 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,120 did. They targeted white communities and these white people were starting to get addicted. 137 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:14,000 But the pharmaceutical companies can be like, wait, these aren't addicts, because as you see an 138 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:19,760 addict, they are African American and Hispanic people. Those are addicts. That is what America 139 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:24,640 painted a picture of an addict to be. But then you see a white person who's starting to get 140 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:29,520 addicted to opioids. And you're like, this isn't what an addict looks like. And this kind of 141 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:35,920 it stigmatizes like when you think of an alcoholic, this is kind of on my rant, it's like when you 142 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:43,680 think of an alcoholic, you think of an out like a bum, a homeless person sipping a beer, a 40 out 143 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:50,080 of a brown paper bag underneath a bridge. Like there is always a picture that is painted 144 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:58,000 associating an addict. And a lot of the times I would I would say 75% of the time that is not 145 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,840 what an addict looks like. Absolutely. And addict is high functioning. They're a part of society. 146 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,760 They're holding down jobs. They just have some dark demons that they're fighting in the background. 147 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:16,000 Yeah, I think of it with like, you go alcohol and I go cannabis, right? Like cannabis addiction is 148 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,360 very real, not so much in the chemical sense, but a little bit, but more in like the gambling sense, 149 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:28,480 like the process of it, the doing it, like having it. And like I said, like people are addicted 150 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:34,480 to it. And you typically think of the dude in a drug rug on his couch surrounded by a mess, but 151 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,560 there's we worked in the industry, there's plenty of them that like cannot function, 152 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:45,600 cannot function without first thing in the morning, rolling one up, right? Well, there's a numbing 153 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:51,200 aspect to all of the all of these drugs. And that is again, cannabis gives you that cannabis gives 154 00:16:51,200 --> 00:17:01,280 you the ability to numb. So, um, okay, so, well, before we go, can I comment on that? I think 155 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:07,600 I think you're right. That's a terrific strategy, especially if you're really lobbying lawmakers 156 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,800 and the public like, you know, suburb a mom with three kids living in the suburbs, 157 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:19,040 there's no way she's an addict, right? She's, he has three kids, she's has a house, like it's 158 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:27,680 yes, good strategy, terrible. But it's also very interesting too, because, and I've watched a 159 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:35,040 couple of documentaries on this, where it's like, that is why we were so quick to categorize this 160 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:44,080 as an epidemic versus the 80s, where crack was really prevalent in African American communities, 161 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:51,120 like the Bronx, or you know, kind of like urban areas, nobody was quick to categorize that as 162 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:55,440 an epidemic, even though it was killing off people at the same rate that heroin was. 163 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,880 And so people were so quick to be like, holy fuck, white people are dying. 164 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,880 Wow. 165 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:12,080 Which fix this problem, you know, I mean, the, the, we don't need to go into the racial disparities. 166 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,280 This isn't what this is about. It's well documented. 167 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:22,080 It's well documented. And it's worth mentioning that there was tactics behind targeting urban 168 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:28,480 community. No, I'm sorry, not urban communities, but rural white suburban neighborhoods. 169 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:33,920 Fascinating. And I think you bring up a good point of even the word epidemic, right? Like, 170 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:40,080 they, they didn't call it a crack epidemic. They don't, they like, I think that just means it's 171 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:45,200 like, that, that just means it's something rolling through society that we need to take a look at, 172 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:50,560 that there's a problem. I don't know. Yes, you're so right. That word is so carefully tailored. 173 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:58,400 Yeah. So, this is where we dig in. Who worked on the 174 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:04,080 marketing campaign for Purdue? Have you heard of the agency called publicists? 175 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:11,200 Yes. Yes. They had headquarters in Seattle or maybe not a head. Well, yeah, headquarters are 176 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:17,040 an office or some sort of like, whatever. And this was a company that I, like I applied to them 177 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,400 when I was a young, when I was in my twenties, like I know of publicists. They were the people 178 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:29,440 partnering with Purdue in the nineties. Are they promoting on their website? I doubt it. 179 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,480 Hell no. I went to their website and I'm going to get into that in a little bit. But 180 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:43,600 so Purdue alone paid publicists more than $50 million for its work. And that doesn't even, 181 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,800 that's, that's not even the ad buying or the media buying space. That's just for the work. 182 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:56,800 And to publicist's credit, I will give them a little bit of credit in 2016, 183 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:04,720 which was long after they should have said something. But they did say, like, 184 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,840 they went to Purdue and say, we need, you need to shut down your sales force to quote, 185 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:17,120 fully embrace a deeper held responsibility for what is going on. But that's all they said. 186 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:24,880 And they continue to take their money. Last year, Zach, in 2021, Massachusetts is now suing 187 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:32,960 publicists. But isn't that wild that it took this long? And, but I kind of let like, this is, 188 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:39,360 this is the outcome of this quote, it's not a quote, I'm sorry, it's an epidemic. This is the 189 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:45,600 outcome of this epidemic is now they're not only targeting Purdue and the Stackler family who owns 190 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:53,360 Purdue, I think it's Stacklers or Stacklers or something. They're not targeting them, 191 00:20:53,360 --> 00:21:00,160 they're targeting all of their associates. So they went after publicists in 2021. 192 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:10,720 I tried very hard to understand exactly what work publicists did, and it is nowhere to be found. 193 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:19,600 Yeah, they hit it pretty deep. Yeah, they obviously are like, no, wasn't us. And I went to their 194 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:28,800 website, obviously, an awesome website, but their tagline is wellness and health. They're really, 195 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:35,680 really doubling down on wellness, which is what we see in the cannabis space is like, 196 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:44,000 people flip the script with drugs, they market it as wellness. And that's not wellness, like 197 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:51,360 the health industry is not wellness, it's a medical industry. Yes, yes, wellness is meditating, 198 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:58,640 and you can't sell meditation. Wellness is goop. Yeah, no, I'm with you. You can't. Yeah, that's 199 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:06,640 well, that's fascinating. What is your gut reaction? So let's talk through there, because I do know 200 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:13,360 like Purdue Pharma just got, it's either pending or recently came through that they got to pay out 201 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:17,520 the federal government. And I don't know if you're getting into that, but they have to pay like a 202 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:25,680 significant and the Sackler family, a significant amount of money in response. How do you feel as 203 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:34,400 an agency owner, seeing an agency being sued by a state for their marketing work, right? Like, 204 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,440 they didn't produce the product, but they did provide marketing. I like, okay, I'm going to leave 205 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,680 it at that. I have opinions, but what are your thoughts? Like, as an agency owner yourself, 206 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,880 does it make you conscious of like the clients that we're going to take on? Like, what do you think? 207 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:56,240 Absolutely. I mean, as I was researching this, I had my own kind of moral dilemmas on like, 208 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:03,440 if a company were to come to you in the early, the mid 1990s, where they're saying that this drug 209 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:13,600 is addiction free, and they say, we'll pay you $50 million. Like, I don't, I, oh my God, I mean, 210 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:18,640 of course I'm going to take the higher ground at this point because I can see what happened. I'm 211 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,480 going to be like, no, we would never take that money. But I think we would take that money. Like, 212 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:31,840 and if they're like, here is science to back up the proof that this is a non addictive pill. I'd 213 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:40,080 be like, I don't have a pool of researchers or scientists in my back pocket to rely on to, you 214 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:48,480 know, do our own studies. I take your word for it. I completely agree with that. 215 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:59,120 And, you know, I do want to also say that publicist's argument at this stage was to say, our role 216 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:05,680 was limited to implementing Purdue's advertising plan and buying media space. And they were quoted 217 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,640 saying, we look forward to a court determining that there's absolutely no legal basis that 218 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,600 supports this lawsuit. So, yeah, and I have to. 219 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,960 I think we're right, though, you know, I mean, like, if we were to take on, you have to rely on 220 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,720 the company's own, if Purdue Farm is giving them research saying this is non addictive, 221 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:33,680 how else will an advertising agency know that it's actually addictive? Like, are they, they're 222 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,720 beholden to whatever Purdue's research is, like, they're not going to go out and conduct their own, 223 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,880 like that's not the role of an agency, right? That's not our role. That's not our expertise, 224 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:53,680 even if I was to call on scientists, like, I am, yeah. Yeah, I mean, think about like the ad 225 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:59,440 agencies that did tobacco products, right? Like they kept coming out with science that everything 226 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:06,400 was like, don Draper, yeah, Don Draper, Mad Men, that everything was like, it was bad for you, 227 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,800 is bad, it was killing people. But like the tobacco companies would come out and say, you know, 228 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:16,720 four out of five doctors smoke too, or some, some like there's, yeah, at what role is it an agency 229 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:25,920 to, like, I guess health is just a different animal, right? Like, I think this is where advertising 230 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:35,200 in the healthcare space is touchy. And publicist has their own publicism is such a big agency 231 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,880 that they have different agencies specifically tailored to different industries. And this one 232 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:48,320 is specifically publicist's health LLC, their whole role is the health and, and you hit on that, 233 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:55,680 like, what a risky fucking industry. Why would you even put yourself in that industry? Like, 234 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,680 we'll maybe touch it with the 10 foot pole and we'll explore it. But like, never would I, 235 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,760 I don't know, but they have so much money is the thing. It's a public sector. I mean, a private 236 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:12,480 sector. I've done so in my previous work at an agency, a hospital was on our roster. And we, 237 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:21,280 like, did marketing and advertising for a hospital. And it's just, it's, it's a gray area all around, 238 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,960 right? Like, you're, you're on one sense, like highlighting their care and their research, 239 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,200 which is awesome. But on the other sense, like, people are pan, what, what does everybody do 240 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,680 first thing when they feel sick, or they have something weird going on, they fucking go to 241 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:44,160 Google like, God damn idiots, but they go there. So we structured campaigns about like people in 242 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:49,440 a panic and trying to find out things about their own body. And it's all marketing. As soon as you 243 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,200 Google something, that whole page is marketing. Yep. And it just, it's, it's a gray area for me. 244 00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:01,120 Yeah, totally, totally. So I think the outcome of that little conversation was like, I don't know 245 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:07,360 that we can completely fault the marketing agency. And it will this, I think it'll be really 246 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:17,120 interesting to see what the outcome of this lawsuit is. In addition to Massachusetts suing 247 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:23,040 publicists, they're also suing McKinsey and Co, which is probably the largest consulting firm in 248 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,800 the nation, it's not world. Yeah, some of the most evil people like that. I don't know if you want 249 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,040 to, if you want to get doomed scroll, go look at some past work of McKinsey and Co. 250 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:41,760 Why do we run across McKinsey and Co so often in our, like they are everywhere. Like no matter 251 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:47,840 where we go, it's like all roads lead to McKinsey and Co. Yeah, they're everywhere. No, it's because 252 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:53,840 we fucked up situations and we traced them back and McKinsey and Co is like this, like people 253 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,440 want to believe in the Illuminati and shit, fucking look at McKinsey and Co. Like that, that company 254 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:06,560 is like has a hand in every evil decision. Like, yeah, they're ruthless, man. They're ruthless. 255 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:16,560 So the lawsuit with McKinsey and Co. They are being asked to pay $650 million to resolve lawsuits 256 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:25,600 by all 50 states. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So, okay, what is also interesting about publicists 257 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:32,320 going back to the marketing agency at the same time that they are accepting money from Purdue, 258 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:41,760 the same time the employees are pitching their services to a partnership to end addiction, 259 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:50,640 which is a nonprofit famous for its TV ad. This is your brain on drugs. Isn't it irony and that is 260 00:28:50,640 --> 00:29:01,280 so sweet. So that they pitched them and won that based off of their pitch that they are quote, 261 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:08,080 immersed in the evolving national opioid medication dialogue going on between pharma companies via 262 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:13,920 our inside access to trusted and informed consulting partners. So they said, hey, we understand the 263 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:19,200 opioid epidemic better than anybody else because we are on the inside of it. Let us run your ads and 264 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:27,760 they won that account. Yeah. Wow. That's ruthless. That is ruthless. And I also want to say like 265 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:35,440 nonprofits are largely funded by government subsidies. So I want to say like, I want to point 266 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:43,520 out the fact that like this opioid crisis cost tax payers a ton of money, not only in a very obvious 267 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:50,640 way, but in a marketing way because here you are, this nonprofit organization is now paying publicists 268 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:59,280 to counter message the other message that they are advertising. So I just want to point that out too. 269 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:08,800 Our tax dollars are being just thrown around. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I don't know. 270 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:16,480 How do you reason with that as an agency owner? What's your stance? Do you take the money? I mean, 271 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:21,040 do you like, okay, they're two different clients, right? And you treat them as two different clients? 272 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:28,640 I worked for a commercial photography company that this is nowhere near the same, but a little bit. 273 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:38,240 We had a client that served the same purpose. They both sold kitchenware and the owner of 274 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:47,120 that company was first of all kind of a Nazi if I do say so myself, but she was okay. Okay. 275 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,840 Was that too far? I don't know her. You're gonna have to tell the story now. That's quite the 276 00:30:51,840 --> 00:31:00,080 claim going in. Okay. She was just very she was just very controlling and oh, I took it as like 277 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:10,960 anti-Semitic and I was like, oh, okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. But we were we were servicing the same 278 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:17,120 company basically selling the same product and she would do we would do everything in our control 279 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,720 to hide it. We were not obvious about it. We would not put it in our portfolio that we served these 280 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:28,880 two companies. So as a marketing agency, I would probably as the owner, I'd just be like, well, 281 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:35,680 let's not tell the other person obviously. Let's say ask, you know, like I've had pitches where 282 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:41,280 they're like, do you have any other clients like that like me? Yeah. And a lot of times that works 283 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:46,720 in our benefit is like, yes, we know the industry we've served some of these companies, but if they're 284 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:53,440 direct competitors, then we would probably hide it a little bit. I don't know. I think, I think, 285 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:59,120 I think just keep them separate, you know, there's a reason why they're not actually competitors. 286 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:07,520 Yeah. So like, I think, sorry, I went off on a tangent, you could probably just cut that out. 287 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,080 Me too. I keep, I keep throwing, I think keep throwing curveballs at you, Caitlin. I just 288 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,920 find I like the pharmaceutical marketing stuff is just, I think it creates a lot of interesting 289 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:24,560 dilemmas as an advertising company coming from here. Totally. Totally. It's a lot of interesting 290 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:32,080 dilemmas. And I think just to go back to your question, would you accept the money from the 291 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:41,040 nonprofit while also accepting the money from Purdue? I think at the time, the marketing agency 292 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:48,400 publicist didn't fully understand the addiction, the addictive elements of the opioid. So they could 293 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,920 honestly say that like, we're not marketing drugs, we're marketing a medication. 294 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,600 I think that's fair. And if they're marketing it as non addictive, and then working with the 295 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,040 addiction control society or whatever that was, like, that kind of does go hand in hand. You're 296 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:10,240 like, we're promoting this non addictive quote unquote, solution to pain. And then we also 297 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:16,640 want to cure addiction. So it's a core focus. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I can see how they reason that. 298 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:23,440 Fair enough. So that's kind of the history of leading up to like where we are now. So I'm going 299 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,800 to throw some facts at you and some numbers. These are going to be not fun. Yeah, these are going to 300 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:35,200 be not fun numbers. Where are we now? Americans pay more for drugs and medical devices than any 301 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:43,680 other country. Like price point? Or do we just consume more consume? Oh, does that surprise you 302 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:50,480 at all to me? It didn't. But not our diets terrible are the way we take care of ourselves is terrible. 303 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,840 You know, when I lived in Europe, all the all the like, I didn't see any old fat people, 304 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,120 like they were all like still fashionable and skinny and doing everything healthy. 305 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,080 Even down to like our portion sizes, like when you order at a restaurant and you just get huge 306 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:15,200 shit, like I can totally see that we're just we're just not surprised to you. No, it didn't. 307 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:20,960 But I think there's also something that you're not taking into consideration is that the US is 308 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:30,960 US is only one of two countries that allow direct to consumer pharmaceutical message marketing. 309 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:40,560 Wow, what's the other country? What would you do? That is a good guess. New Zealand. Oh, weird, 310 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:46,240 huh? Interesting. Yeah, that's so and that is that is the crux of it right there. 311 00:34:46,240 --> 00:34:52,160 Like to consumer. Yep. Yeah. And here's and here's the thing. It's like pharmaceutical companies 312 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,560 come at it from the angle will like, and this is God, what we see time and time again with all of 313 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:04,960 these medical topics that we cover like Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes, like 23 and me, let's give 314 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,960 the information to the consumer. They deserve the information they deserve to have the rights 315 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:20,160 to make their own informed decisions. But this is so problematic. So problematic. Let's unpack 316 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:28,720 direct to consumer ads that we're currently so they come in three forms. Product claim ads. 317 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:33,040 These ads talk about a drug, the condition it treats and its risks and benefits. 318 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:42,480 Reminder ads. These ads remind people about the drug's name, but do not talk about its uses. 319 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:49,760 And then the third direct to consumer ad is and I guess this is kind of like not necessarily add 320 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,280 one of my trying to say this is more like the messaging. Yeah, the consumers. And then the 321 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:03,440 third kind of message is help seeking ads. These ad talk about a disease or condition without 322 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:11,440 discussing specific drugs. So it's like, do you have COPD? Which for fuck's sake, for like 10 years, 323 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:17,120 I thought I had COPD because I kept seeing these ads. And I still think I have mesothelioma. You 324 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:26,400 know, I'm like, I'm like, it's happening to me. Yes. Yeah. These companies spend the bulk of their 325 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:38,400 budget on TV about $4 billion. Then magazines follow a close second with about $1.5 billion spent in 326 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:45,600 magazines. And then newspaper and then radio and then billboards, movie theaters and other types of 327 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:54,960 advertising took up a few million dollars combined. I had a knee jerk reaction to this. Why do you 328 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:01,360 think companies are using this more traditional marketing approach? These are traditional avenues. 329 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,400 Because the older demographics are the ones by going to the doctor and buying pills, right? 330 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:14,400 And that's what they consume. Yep. Yep. They are not using Facebook. They're not using Instagram. 331 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:20,560 They're not using YouTube. They're using these very traditional sources of media, which is like 332 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:31,040 keeping these traditional sources of media alive pretty much. I also think there's an element of 333 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,680 restrictions. Facebook can read every word that you put in your ad, right? Like automatically, 334 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:45,120 like your messaging, because they walk that line so, so hard. Your messaging has got to be 335 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:50,640 doubt TV. They, like, you just put the ad in as long as it doesn't do anything crazy. They'll 336 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:57,520 take your money, you know? Yeah. You know, I just kind of like thought, I had a side thought for a 337 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:04,480 second is like, can you imagine this amount of money being fed into Facebook? Like how dangerous, 338 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:11,120 how dangerous Facebook could potentially become if they started accepting these billions and billions 339 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:18,880 of dollars? Scary. Like, yeah, we can't even get Facebook to take over. We have, if you have home 340 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,400 in your name, you're classified as a housing ad like Facebook's. Yeah. But if they started taking it, 341 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,840 and honestly, like it kind of makes sense for Facebook to start doing it because the demographic 342 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:36,240 is shifting to where the pharmaceutical companies want it and can, you know, consumption is up. 343 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:43,120 And well, around their last leg, honestly, older millennials are like close to their 40s now. 344 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,960 And Gen Xers, these are the people that grew up with technology. And so the demographic is 345 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:58,000 shifting into the, we spend all of our time in the digital media space. And I do want to say, 346 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,440 too, that it's not that Facebook isn't accepting this money. Like they, they, they're still running. 347 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,760 They're still running ads in the digital space, but it's not as prevalent as the media and as 348 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:16,320 the newspapers and all of that good stuff because that's where their demographic is. But I am very 349 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,000 interested. Let's circle back to this exact podcast 10 years down the road. Yeah, I make a mental 350 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:28,240 note of that. Sure, I'll put it in my calendar. But they also, yeah, I also like sometimes I spy 351 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:33,760 on fax news and like, see what they're up to and watch them like hate watch them. Every commercial 352 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:39,040 is pharmaceutical commercial, every single one. And that was a, that was a call out too. It was 353 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:45,360 the big four companies, CBC, NBC, ABC and Fox. Those are the big companies that are accepting 354 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:52,960 this money, which are relentlessly go back to the power of media. I mean, we've covered that a lot. 355 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,960 Go back to any of our podcasts covering actual media and the detriment of that. And you'll 356 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:06,160 understand why this money is a dangerous is playing a dangerous role. So I want to start 357 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:12,240 talking a little bit about the ads themselves and the impact that they're having. So in the late 358 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:18,960 1990s, the US Food and Drug Administration regulated these ads by stipulating that they present a 359 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,960 fair balance between the benefits and the risks. So that's why you see these ads that's like, they 360 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:36,400 cause diarrhea and death. You will get a boner. So, but here's where this backfired. And I think you'll 361 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:46,560 get a kick out of this. Okay, so this is a study done by Harvard and SAT. I'll get back to that. 362 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:52,480 Okay, I'll get back to that. Across six experiments comprising more than, comprising of more than 363 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,920 3,000 US participants, they found that when drug commercials included all side effects, 364 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:07,040 so both the major death and the minor diarrhea, consumers judged the overall severity to be 365 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:14,800 lower than when they were exposed to only the major side effects. So this led consumers to 366 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:22,000 prefer the drug more and more and made them willing to pay more for it. Does that make sense to you? 367 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,640 Do you understand that? Yeah, yeah. So, and then in the messaging you lead off and I'm thinking 368 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,560 back to like all the side effects because I try to pay attention. I'm so curious why they, like, 369 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,280 how they throw it in there and how they talk about the side effects when in these commercials. And 370 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,560 they do, you're exactly right. They start off with the major ones, but then they end with the minor 371 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:45,120 ones. So those are the ones that kind of like, the major ones are just kind of thrown in the middle. 372 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,800 So you're just kind of like taking them all in. But when you add the last couple are the ones that 373 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:56,560 you'll remember. Not only that, it's not only that, but it's the presentation of information overload. 374 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:04,800 Yep. So it's called argument dilution bias. And here's an example of this. And I'm going to present 375 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,800 two separate options and I'm going to test you. Yes. One, one, uh, 376 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:21,280 pill A. Yeah. Tim spends about 31 hours studying outside of class in an average week. 377 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:29,120 That's one, that's one example. Okay. This is another example. Tom spends 31 hours studying 378 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,800 outside of class in an average week. Tom has one brother, two sisters. He visits his grandparents 379 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:40,560 once every three months. He once went on a blind date and shoots pool about once every two months. 380 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:48,960 Based off of those two examples, who do you think studies more? Who do you think has a higher GPA? 381 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,240 Tim or Tom? Tim, the first guy. 382 00:42:52,240 --> 00:43:02,640 You played right into my cards. Yeah, because you just focus on Tom, 383 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,600 person twos extracurricular activities, right? Like they both study the same amount, 384 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,240 but like all the extracurriculars, you're like, Oh, he must be busy. You know, like, 385 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:21,120 yes, but they study the same amount 31 hours studying, but you're not given the information 386 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:27,200 of what Tim does in his extracurricular. Tim, there's only, he only studies 31 hours. What the 387 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,520 fuck is he doing with the rest of his hours? He's doing, he's doing the same amount of things that 388 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:38,240 Tom is doing. You're just not presented with that information. So, uh, when research, when presented 389 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:45,200 with these options, Tim, like you said, was rated as having a significantly higher GPA than Tom. 390 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:52,320 And the irrelevant information around Tom's grandparents and his casual play of pool diluted 391 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:59,440 the value and the importance of the relevant information in his study habits. Fascinating. 392 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:05,840 It is. And I think this goes into storytelling, right? As marketers, we're storytellers too, 393 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:12,080 and we have to do it in a very brief, brief window, right? Like a scroll and add 30 seconds, 394 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,840 we have to tell a story. And you know, my philosophy has always been just as much like when you're 395 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:24,240 crafting a story, the information you put in is important, but just as important is what do you 396 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:30,640 leave out, even if you're writing a novel, right? Essentially, like you are choosing what to exclude 397 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,280 from that story, right? To have the reader or that person focus on the important parts. 398 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:41,760 Um, and so exclusion and inclusion are vital to any storytelling mechanism. 399 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:48,480 Yeah. But the interesting piece of all of this is kind of like counterintuitive to what you would 400 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:56,400 think. It's like, if I just present a handful of, um, severe side effects, people are more inclined to, 401 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:03,360 uh, not buy into those versus if I presented every single side effect from A to Z. People 402 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:09,280 were like, fuck it. I'm not going to get like 90, but that's not going to happen to me. All of those 403 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,080 things are not going to happen to me. Yes. Yes. But if I was just like, oh, this might cause death, 404 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:20,320 I'm like, nah, I'm out. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. It's like, that's, that's 405 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:25,760 a fascinating tactic. I know. And we, it's being, it's used in every single pharmaceutical commercial, 406 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:32,960 right? Like, I don't know one that just doesn't like pepper in. So, so while the fact that you 407 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:39,120 while the food and while the FDA kind of imposed this law, that was like, you have to present all 408 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:45,760 benefits, both good and bad. It totally fucking backfired. Cause it was like, jokes on you, 409 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,680 consumers are more likely to buy it when we list every single major and minor side effect of it. 410 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:57,360 So, um, and I'll go into a couple other case studies in one experiment. Participants heard 411 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:04,960 an audio commercial for a Simbalta, a drug that treats depression, depression. Half of the participants 412 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:10,800 heard the original commercial, which was 78 seconds. And then the other half heard a shorter commercial 413 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:16,400 that removed the mention of three minor side effects. Those who heard the commercial in its 414 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:23,520 entirety rated the drug lower in its overall severity of side effects. Wow. So that was audio. 415 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:32,080 We talked about visual and now they also did the study with a magazine ad too. So, you know, 416 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:38,720 like all of that fine print, like nobody fucking reads that. So in addition to the lower overall 417 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:45,520 assessment of severity, it increased the attractiveness of the drug. Okay. So Americans also 418 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:51,920 have a high level of confidence in these ads when it comes to drug dangers. About 76% 419 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:59,680 feel drug companies adequately explain side effects in risks according to the survey by Harvard and 420 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:09,520 stat 76% believe drug companies three out of every four people if we're using pharmaceutical language. 421 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:17,120 Think that they're being forthright with their information. Yeah, I have nothing else to say. 422 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:22,880 I feel like our silence says it all. I mean, I mean, incredible manipulation, right? Like 423 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:29,920 incredible manipulation. I know that there's all these historical just facts that these companies 424 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:36,400 are just pushing these I know drugs. I know people still are like, Oh, yeah, at least they're 425 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:44,400 using bullshit science. They're conducting bullshit, bullshit research that favors them 426 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:50,960 in the studies yet three out of every four people still believe that they are telling us the truth. 427 00:47:52,960 --> 00:48:00,960 And get this, according to Kantar media, two thirds of adults take some kind of action after 428 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:09,200 seeking seeing sorry, seeing a drug ad and about 40% make an appointment with their doctor 40% of 429 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,720 people make an appointment with their doctor after seeing one of these ads that we have just joked 430 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:25,200 about 40% that is massive dollars. You know what it is, Caitlin? It's like I said, it's the most 431 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:31,440 brilliant call to action and ask your doctor, ask your doctor if this is right for you, you know, 432 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:45,280 like brilliant, absolutely terrible, awful, CD evil, but brilliant. Yeah. So just to this is kind 433 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:53,280 of my last thought or not last thought, but last fact for you. For every dollar spent on advertising 434 00:48:53,280 --> 00:49:02,800 to consumers, sales of prescriptions, drug prescription drugs rose $4 and 40 cents. So the ROI is one 435 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:09,920 more. Four to one makes sense. Four to one. I mean, that's why they keep doing it. And that's why 436 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,640 these fucking companies spend two thirds of their budget on marketing and one third of their budget 437 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:26,960 on research and development. Like it's, it's, yeah. Yeah. And so I actually have the 10 most 438 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:34,720 advertised drugs. This was in 2015. So wow, this is outdated. So maybe we'll keep this out. Okay. 439 00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:40,240 But I do want it. Did you find anything about the b roll, the psychology and the reasoning behind 440 00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:47,360 the happy? We talked about it, the moms running through fields. Like, is there anything I see it 441 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,320 in two and maybe let me toss it to you. Like I see them in twofold where obviously the b roll, 442 00:49:52,320 --> 00:50:00,160 the happy people jumping in a lake, the vanilla white dad just like doing dad things. And then 443 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:05,920 the other one is like more like graphics, like, you know, graphic heavy, like showing the condition 444 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:11,120 or showing something that's going wrong and showing a little animation, like a fun approachable 445 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:17,120 animation of how the pill works and how it can help. Do you have any thoughts on their reasoning? 446 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:23,040 Why they do? I think the animation makes it approachable. But why this b roll, when you're 447 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:29,600 talking about disease, like what is your thought if you're creative director? What's the, what's the 448 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:36,960 reasoning? It's such a distraction method. It's like, you're watching this woman walk through 449 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:41,920 the farmer's market with a smile on her face with her children and the visuals are so much more 450 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:49,280 impactful than what is actually being said over the b roll. I think that's my most obvious answer. 451 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:55,680 I didn't have any, I don't have any research to support that. Yeah, I think, I think you're right. 452 00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:01,680 Like it's, but it's so tacky, right? Is it, it's like a lame attempt at subliminal messaging? 453 00:51:02,240 --> 00:51:08,320 I know, but it has to be working because what 40% of Americans then make an appointment with their 454 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:17,120 doctor. Yeah. So it is totally subliminal messaging and it is. It's so cheap. Not in production value, 455 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:24,720 but like it, it's cheap. It's just like the tactic. Like I think there's so many different ways that 456 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:29,520 you could approach it, right? I think direct to consumer are my overall note from our episode 457 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:35,040 today is direct to consumer pharmaceutical marketing needs to go. Like we are not the experts. We've 458 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:40,000 talked about this in the health field. We are not the experts of our own body. Doctors spend 12 459 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:46,880 fucking years learning the ins and outs, hands on training nurses as well, certifications left and 460 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:52,400 right. These people are busting their ass to know what to do in the situation. Yeah. Stop fucking 461 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:58,560 making decisions for yourself. Just go there, find a doctor you trust. You'd like talk to them, 462 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:04,880 you know, like, did you just say talk to your doctor? Yeah, go ask your doctor if talking to 463 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:12,080 him's right for you. Talking to them. I'm so sorry. That was a Freudian slip where I called the doctor 464 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:22,880 to him. That was my bad. My bad. See, like my fault. Shoot. I mean, I think there's also, I am such a 465 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:31,040 big believer. The only power that I have as a consumer is where I spend my money. And I will 466 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:38,080 fight this and my voting power, right? Yeah, I can vote and I can vote with my dollar. Yep. And 467 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,560 please just if there's anything that you take away from our podcast is vote with your dollar. I mean, 468 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:48,560 that is why I'm a vegetarian. That is why I do not eat fish. That is why I, you know, there's, 469 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:54,880 there's, that is why I do not purchase fast fashion. Like you as a consumer hold so much power, 470 00:52:54,880 --> 00:53:00,160 everyone, you really do. And it's up to you to figure out where you spend your money because 471 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:07,440 these really evil companies are nothing without you. They are nothing without you. So I just want 472 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:15,120 to say don't ask your doctor. It turns out I don't have COPD, even though the companies would like 473 00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:22,800 me to believe I do, you know, I don't have fucking shingles, even though like you see a rash pop up 474 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:30,480 and you're like, see Alice would be right for this. Yep. Yep. I'm so, I'm so on board and I'm glad 475 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:38,000 we're ending with that too is voting with your dollar. And just my last note is like, you know, 476 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:42,880 the Republicans always are like, these companies are going all liberal, they're appealing. But you 477 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:49,200 know why they're standing up for gay rights and coming out against Roe v. Wade decisions is because 478 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:56,880 the dollar. Yes. Right. They know their customer base if they take a stance or don't take a stance 479 00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:03,360 in the case of Disney, where it's just kind of like, yeah, they lose the power of the dollar is 480 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:12,480 everything these corporations. So yeah. Home Depot. So Home Depot, their owner and Hobby Lobby, 481 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:19,040 their owner, like actively fights against anti transgender laws or actually actually fights 482 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:25,600 for anti transgender laws. So it's like when I have the option to go to Home Depot or Lowe's, 483 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:31,920 I'm going to Lowe's. Because I don't support that. And so I don't know, I just have to say like, 484 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:38,000 do your research on who these companies are funding. Yeah. And I can arson in the Hobby Lobby. So I 485 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:44,080 just go in and burn the place to the fucking god. I've never stepped foot in a Hobby Lobby. I have 486 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,800 no idea. Let me take that back. Michaels all the way. Are they some of the products? I guess. 487 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:56,640 No, you're not crafters. So you we have no say in this argument. Anyway, anyway, sorry for the 488 00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:01,600 last tangent. You made it through for the rest the whole entire episode. We needed to lighten it 489 00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:07,280 up talking about pharmaceuticals. Yep. Caitlin, do you have any notes on our Facebook group upcoming? 490 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:14,880 No, I just want to say that we will post some behind the scenes on our Facebook group manipulating 491 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:22,080 the podcast. And that's where you can find all of our coverage. And for the latest episode, 492 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:28,080 it drops 8am Tuesdays. Yes, it does. And please, please rate us. I don't care. You can give us 493 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:33,040 one star and tell us we're beautiful or five stars and tell us we need to go to hell. I don't care 494 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:37,600 about the system. Let us know some feedback. Caitlin and I are in this bubble. We're just 495 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:42,560 talking to each other. We get like anecdotal. My mom's the only feedback I get. I need some 496 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:48,320 outside feedback. I need somebody to give me the real deal. Where can we get better? Where can we 497 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:53,600 make this more informative to you? Or if you love it, five stars, I mean, and you know, I'll give 498 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,720 you a little virtual high five, but yes, please review the show. Let us know what you think. 499 00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:05,760 Have a great day. Go ask your doctor if listening to another manipulating the masses podcast is 500 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:11,120 right for you. The answer is yes. Go watch our previous episodes, listen to our previous episodes, 501 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:18,000 watch, I guess, we're now on YouTube. Oh my God. Do you ever stop talking? Nope. Bye.