Hello. Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
The mental breakdown. I'm Kenna. I'm Koelle.
I always say how's everybody doing? How's everybody? How's it going everybody? How's it going?
We've been talking about the Albert Fish episode and how minorly it was.
If you guys haven't heard, we have Albert Fish as our first Patreon-only exclusive episode for our tier 2 and 3 patrons.
We've been talking about the Poptrons and if you want to get access to that, just join one of those tiers. It was kind of lightly edited but for the most part super raw, super unfiltered.
Really long episode. It was almost 2 hours I think.
And all my pronunciations of all the afflictions at the end was just, I just butchered it all.
You got all the botched ones because we didn't want to look it up and come back because we didn't really want to edit so much. So we just all learned something.
Yeah, I do wish that I had said what it was and then what the fetish was or whatever.
Oh yeah, well we can maybe put that in the notes or something.
No, I think everybody else can mess up their search history if they want to.
That's true.
So yeah, thank you guys for joining us. We have some just exciting stuff going on recently. I know we feel like we say that a lot but you know the True Crime Podcast Festival lately.
We were both guest hosts on other podcasts as well which is really cool. And yeah, just looking forward to that True Crime Podcast Festival.
Get your tickets at our website, DiagnosingAKiller.com for 15% off of those tickets and come see us at our booth in Austin in August.
You always say like that.
Yeah, look out for the episode of Movication that I was privileged to be a part of and then the episode of Lady You're Scaring Us that Kenan was a part of.
Yeah, I know I felt so cool because we did the whole episode and then at the very end Hillary was like, do you want to stay on and do a bonus episode with us?
And I was like, let's fucking go. I was like, why is it for like two and a half, three hours? I was like, oh my gosh, but I loved it.
Not me. I told Tyler and Brady to fuck off because I was like, it's fucking late.
They do long episodes though, right?
They do. I know. Brady is so funny because we were just chit chatting at the beginning and then he was like, okay, well is everybody ready?
And I was like, we haven't been recording this whole time.
Like, oh wait, now I have to remember everything I already said and repeat it.
I kind of enjoyed that though because then it was like, we weren't really like nervous or I wasn't nervous anymore because it was like just talking and just getting the feel.
I was pretty nervous when we first started, especially because we did like a just audio kind of collab.
It wasn't like a face, like a zoom or anything.
So I couldn't really see like anyone's body language.
I was like, do they like me?
But yeah, it ended up being really good. So super excited to hear both of those episodes and go follow them on Instagram.
You can follow us on Instagram at DiagnosingAKillerAnywhere except for Twitter, which is at KillerDiagnosis.
We're going to hopefully, I keep saying that we need to update our TikTok.
We really just need to get good at editing videos because the video edit skills are not good on my channel.
Yeah, we don't really know how TikTok works.
Does anyone want to do our TikTok videos for us?
Seriously.
And also go check out our merchandise.
We have a bunch of new merch. We're still working on new designs and stuff.
So give us any suggestions you may have and we're staring at a shirt that says full body heaps right next to us.
I liked the way that it came out in this red t-shirt.
It looks really good.
Yeah. And I again, what Tyler was saying on the vacation, I was like, how is the, because he was wearing the, he was wearing the, is he the lady shirt?
Well, yeah, we're recording.
Yeah.
Oh, that's funny.
So, which is funny because then I think Brady was wearing a direct written and directed by Kevin Smith hat and then I was wearing my, I assure you were open shirts.
So it's kind of cool.
Anyways, yeah, it's like sublimination, I think is what they call that.
So it's like where it's,
It's not like a patch.
Yeah.
Or like a really cheap shirt you'll get from like the beach stores or whatever.
It's like, it's pressed in there.
It's not like a vinyl.
Yeah.
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, exactly.
So we'll be checking that out and keep reaching out to us. I want to hear from you guys still and anybody in other countries, let us know because it's always cool.
I still can't wrap my head around the fact that like people listen to us across the world.
Like that's so weird to me.
Not weird. Like it's so cool.
It's just a hard concept for me to grasp.
Yeah.
People have way different lives in us.
And we live in America.
We live on a little island according to us.
So, yeah, exactly.
And in Texas, especially.
Yeah.
All right, we're going to get into this mental breakdown.
And I told you that I had done some mental breakdown topics.
I had written them down and this one, I had written down something a little bit different.
But when I started to research it, I fell into this topic and I was like, this is going to be way more interesting.
And it's going to be really exciting.
Okay.
So today we are going to be talking about the four different types of hitmen.
Like contact killers.
Yes.
What?
Okay.
There's four different types.
I know.
And I got really into it.
I was like, oh my gosh.
That's cool.
And this is just want to give a blanket statement about this.
This is based on a study that was done in the UK.
I will plug their name of the school that did it.
But I got like most of my info from them.
Okay.
Okay, cool.
And then just a small content warning.
Of course, we're going to be talking about hits on people.
There are some cases we're going to get into.
So a little bit of, you know, gruesome kills, some sort of suicidal tendencies kind of come
up as well.
So that's a content statement.
Okay.
So first and foremost, we are going to be talking about what it means to quote, take out a hit
on somebody.
And this is not a DIY course by the way.
Yeah, seriously.
And what a contract killing really is.
Okay.
So it's so funny because I was looking it up and it fucking popped up like one of the
questions was like contact, contract killing, annual salary or whatever.
And a fucking Indeed article came up.
It's like take that off.
I get scared sometimes like I started for my next case, hint hint, I'm like researching
domestic terrorism.
And I'm like, oh my God, the FBI thinks that like, no, yeah.
No, trust me, you're trying to hire someone.
Yeah, trust me.
I host a podcast.
Right.
I'm not looking this up for myself.
It's for the audience.
So contract killing is a form of murder or assassination and was in which one person hires another party
to kill a targeted person or persons.
Okay.
And it's also involved in a legal agreement in which some form or payment monetary or
otherwise is exchanged.
So some form of payment, however you want to pay, I'll have sex with you if you kill
this person, whatever.
Something's exchanged.
Sometimes I think that does happen.
I guarantee you it does.
Well, I mean, that's, you know, essentially what like the fairs is like, which we'll talk
about.
Yeah.
Now a contract killing does not necessarily have to be just between person to person
like two individual people, but either party can be a person group or organization.
Okay.
And I'm sure we all are thinking it the mob or the mafia.
Yeah.
They don't do that stuff.
No, definitely not.
And if they do, I don't want to know about it.
Contracts killing provides the hiring party with the advantage of not having to carry
out the actual killing.
And it's supposed to make it easier to not get caught because you're not actually involved
in the murder.
Yeah.
Although as we know, there are many times where people get found out as hiring somebody.
Yeah.
Tons of times.
Whether or not they admit it, the hit man turns them in or better yet, if they accidentally
hire an undercover cop to be the hit man.
Which also happens.
We've seen that before.
That's hilarious.
Now, contract killers may exhibit the same traits as a serial killer, which I thought
was interesting.
But they're generally not classified as such because third party killing objectives are
usually different than that of serial killers.
For example, a serial killer may feel the need to kill to satisfy something deep inside
of them while a hit man may simply kill for money.
Yeah.
No emotion involved.
No emotion.
Yeah.
The cop bond suggests that while hit men are frequently compared to serial killers, they
quote, do not experience or require a cooling off period between their murders because of
the unemotional and pragmatic nature of their killing.
Interesting.
I love that pragmatic word.
You know, we talk about, especially like BTK, like he waited so long in between like
his kills and even like years or even weeks sometimes is like a big gap between killings
when it comes to a specific person.
But these people will like, they don't have to have that time period because they're not
attached to the killing part.
Right.
They're not.
There's no recovering or what do they call that?
Like a refractory period, I think is what that's called, right?
Where it's like you said that cooling off period and you know, with a serial killer,
I bet that they would have to like gear back up to like commit that again or have that
same anxiety or you know, manic feeling or whatever in order to commit the crime.
Exactly.
So, nevertheless, although they have different traits, there are certain individuals that
can be labeled as both serial killer and the hit man.
Just one fact.
Do you think it's just like, oh, you know, I'm really interested in like animals, so
I'm going to become a veterinarian?
Sure.
Yeah.
I'm really interested in killing people, but you know what would be really great is
if I could get paid to do so.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And honestly, like that's why a lot of people join the military.
Oh, that's true.
And that's what we talked about.
We're going to talk about.
Yeah.
So, fun fact, if you can call it that, a contract killer is usually known as a hit man while
one that works for a criminal organization is actually typically referred to as an enforcer.
Ooh, an enforcer.
That sounds so much cooler.
I mean, you've seen mob movies.
Yeah.
There was a study done in Australia on 162 contract killers between 1989 and 2002 that
suggested that the most common reason for murder for hire was insurance payouts.
We hear this all the time, you know, we take out a life insurance policy and then they
mysteriously die.
Yeah, I fall into the serious.
Usually does the fucking work.
Yeah.
The study also found that the payments to the hit man varied from $5,000 to $30,000 per
killing and averaged at $15,000.
Only what?
That's not even that much money.
15K.
I don't believe it's a lot of money for to kill someone.
No.
Yes.
I just, I feel like, I don't know.
I just feel like, well, clearly you don't value that person's life and neither does the
person that's killing him.
Yeah.
I get it.
But I feel like when you listen to these stories that it's usually like 50,000 or 100,000,
you know, like.
Like, you know, you're charged.
I don't think I, I don't know.
I feel like for me, I don't think it would be like a monetary thing.
You would have to put me in a situation where you would have to be like harming somebody
that I loved or something, you know?
That's the answer I was kind of hoping for because if you answered a number and you asked
me, I wouldn't fucking charge anybody because I wouldn't do that.
It would have to be like one of those like if you don't do this.
Yeah.
Then, you know, yeah.
Not like giving anybody any ideas here.
No.
A million dollars.
A million.
So, as we probably know, the most common used weapons were firearms.
This is from this specific study and contract killers actually made up 2% of all murders
in Australia at the time of the study.
What?
Usually they were saying it's like a prevalence across the world.
Like contract killers actually make up like a small percentage of murders in any country
and they're actually like way more common than you think.
Probably not.
Well, I would hope not in the US.
Well, no.
No, in the US.
Sure.
So, we had like two men from all countries and everyone else had like two or three and
we had like 50.
Really?
That were caught.
That have been caught?
Yeah.
Wow.
How many in Australia do you think?
There was like four like infamous ones.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that one specific study was just during that time frame in Australia.
The one that we're going to talk about the most is a more recent one.
This was done by Birmingham City University in the UK and it was released in 2014.
This suggested numerous things about Hitman, this study.
They included that Tuesday is the most common day of the week for a hit.
What?
So, watch your backs tomorrow.
While March, May, and July were the most common months for a hit to take place.
Out of the 35 Hitmen and one hit woman researched over the course of 39 years, their average
age was 36.
This is again just this one study.
135.
So, you got to watch the age out of it.
Victims were almost always murdered in suburban neighborhoods, most often doing something pretty
mundane like drinking coffee or mowing the lawn.
That's how it's the geek mowing the lawn.
Just get sniped.
So, lastly, and what we're going to get into specifically, the study suggested that there
are four main types of Hitmen.
Okay.
The first of these four types of Hitmen is called the novice.
The study describes the novice as just that, a beginner or trainee, but quote, this should
not be interpreted as implying that the Hitman was unable to plan the hit or carry it out
successfully.
In short, even very young novices can make successful Hitmen.
Hmm.
So, the study listed 15 year old Sontra Sontres Gale of the UK as their example of a novice
Hitman.
We're going to talk about him for a second.
In March.
Damn it.
In March.
In March of 2010, Sontre was paid just 200 pounds to carry out the murder of Gullistan
Subasi, a 26 year old mother who was living with her mother and her son at the time of
her death.
Why?
It'll explain in a second.
Well, it actually didn't explain why, but I'll tell you who hired him in a second.
Police were shocked when they watched CCTV footage of Miss Subasi being shot in the chest
with a son-off shotgun at point blank range on her mom's doorstep.
But perhaps the more shocking thing was seeing the killer slowly walk away from the body
just after killing her without even glancing back.
Just poop poop poop poop.
Just walked away.
He was concealed, his identity was concealed, but still.
When detectives found out that the man in the video was 15 year old Sontre, they were
even more shocked as they originally thought it was a seasoned professional, judging by
the quote, chillingly deliberate and cold blooded way in which the hit was delivered.
Yeah, I was going to say at 15, just be like bam and then walk away.
Yeah, especially for your first one.
Like that sounds bad, but like you'd think that-
Walk all the way up to the doorstep.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
He was involved in a gang and trying to win over the older members' trust, so when he
was tasked with this hit, he did not hesitate.
He would be arrested and tried for this crime and sentenced to a minimum of 20 years, I
guess because of his age, and it's in the UK, so they might have a different-
Did you just like randomly pick her out or the gang did?
So, yeah, the quote, older gang member who told him to carry out the hit was 21 year
old Isaac Billy.
21 year old.
21.
So, it actually didn't- I didn't read too much further into it, I probably could have
found why they wanted her killed, but I'm not sure if it was a random prove yourself
or if she was maybe involved and trying to get out or whatever the bad exactly.
So that is the novice and that's the best example that I found that they gave in the
study.
That's crazy, at 15.
Yeah, so young.
The second type of hitman listed by the UK study is known as the dilettante.
The dilettante.
Dilettante.
Oh.
So, this type of hitman does not necessarily come from an offending background and only
seems to have decided to accept a contract as a way of resolving some form of personal
crisis.
More often than not, the crisis is financial.
Okay.
So, they don't typically kill, they don't really have a criminal background but they're
so desperate and they're like, fuck it.
So, they make money.
Exactly.
Okay.
This type of killer will usually get the job done, but quote, not necessarily with
any enthusiasm or skill.
So yeah.
So they'll kill but they won't, it'll be messy.
I've definitely seen this on Dateline before where that one guy was hired to kill that
one guy's wife and he had recently got fired from his job working for this man's company.
And the man said, I know I just fired you a week or two ago but I'll pay you to kill
my wife essentially.
Well, and that sucks because you're pulling out the most vulnerable person that you know
is fucking desperate.
Yes, exactly.
And so, he went in and the woman fought.
All this stuff she was trying to protect her children, which is awful because the children
were in the house.
Fucking awful.
And chased her all the way downstairs.
There was blood all over the house.
It was just horrific.
It's awful.
But again, the man was so desperate for the money.
He didn't care.
How messy it was or whatever it was.
It doesn't matter as long as she's dead.
As long as she's dead, it might get in my money.
Yeah, exactly.
That's awful.
Unlike the novice, these types of hitmen don't come from criminal backgrounds like I said.
So they typically do not use the most common murder weapon, firearms.
Although they will commit to a job, they will actually often not go through with it.
I have heard that too.
Sometimes they turn the dude in.
So the study's example of the dilettante is 26-year-old Orville Wright, not to be confused
with the plane guy.
One of the brothers that invented planes.
What year was this?
This was 96, so probably not the same guy.
He's a vampire.
So sometime in 1996, Orville had accepted nearly 4,000 pounds from his intended victims,
former lover, to carry out the murder with the promise of an additional 1,000 pounds
upon correct completion.
So if he did it and he did it right.
Orville put on a balik lava ski mask.
Grabbed a knife.
Balik lava?
Not to be confused with baklava.
I was gonna say.
Balik lava?
Yeah, it looks like a ski mask.
He grabbed a knife and broke into the home of 30-year-old mother of three, Teresa Pitkin.
Unlike the first hit that we spoke about, Orville did not immediately try to kill Teresa,
and instead he just began a conversation with her.
With the ski mask on?
Yes.
Kind of weird.
Well I'm sure she was like, what are you doing here?
And he was like, okay, he's like, oh, uh, well okay, one second.
Yeah.
See I was skiing and...
Right.
And I found this knife.
Teresa said about this encounter, quote, I thought he was going to rape me, but then
he told me he had been contracted to kill me.
Oh.
He told her.
And it's even scarier, like listen, like I don't have a choice here, like I gotta kill
you.
Like I had to kill you.
At first, Orville had told Teresa that he had been hired by a friend of her ex to cripple
her, but then he admitted to her that her ex, David Martin, had actually hired him to
kill her.
Oh my, what do you do?
What do you do?
Someone comes into your home and says, look, your ex hired me to kill you.
And all I can think of is like the strangers with the like the potato sack, man.
Yeah.
And he's like just watching.
By the way.
Oh my God.
Teresa was able to keep Orville talking and he eventually actually decided to not go
through with the killing.
He's like, shit, now we're friends and like I can't.
She fucking kept nerd his ass.
Yeah.
She did kept nerd his ass.
Orville would be found guilty of aggravated burglary with intent to cause grievous bodily
harm and was sentenced to two and a half years in prison.
Well he didn't kill her and he came clean and what about the boyfriend?
David Martin denied any involvement and was never arrested or charged.
How do you live the rest of your life?
They actually, her and the Teresa and Orville became like kind of like homies afterwards
and her and her mom both forgave him and he was from Jamaica and they actually offered
to buy him a plane ticket to send him home.
Oh my God.
And they did and he went home.
Because he was desperate.
Well, he just, I guess, he was desperate for money here.
I know.
That's so sad.
I thought you were going to say that the two would quickly get married.
Yeah, that's the thing.
That should be on the shirt.
It should.
The two would quickly marry.
I don't know if I sent you though about that.
No, I sent you on that.
It's something to do with that.
It doesn't say that.
I haven't even looked at it.
I need to update the website.
That's all right.
The third type of hitman involved in this study is one known as the journeyman.
Ooh, the journeyman.
The journeyman.
According to the study, quote, the journeyman is someone who is capable, experienced and
reliable but not an especially exceptional performer.
This type of hitman will often have completed a greater number of contracts than any of
the others.
However, we do acknowledge that this sample we have developed is a sample based on failure.
In other words, these are contract killers who have been captured.
I see.
End quote.
Yeah.
Since it's harder to catch the hitman in this category, there's not one specific killer
that the study named in relation to the journeyman.
The best example given is that of Vincent Vega and Jules Winfield in Pulp Fiction.
Oh, I love that movie.
People, it's okay if you haven't seen Pulp Fiction because I saw it for the first time
like last year.
It's actually a pretty good movie.
So the study goes on to say that the average journeyman will not have the same like snappy
dialogue like the characters in the movie.
They will instead keep to themselves and avoid saying too much or getting caught.
They kind of just don't talk about it.
I feel like they're like bragging about it.
Sit down and Samuel L is having a burger and like.
It's super casual.
The study suggests, quote, successful hitmen, masters in other words, have never been captured.
So the sample is skewed somewhat.
However, it's their connection to a specific area's criminal underworld that leads to their
downfall.
It is local intelligence that can be given to the police to bring them to justice.
So it's like, you know, well, it's bottom of the barrel gets gets tagged first.
So it's like, you know, like what they're saying, like even through organizations and
stuff like that, that if you're lower on the totem pole, you're likely the one that's
going to take the fall.
Yeah, exactly.
And sometimes those guys take the fall even when they didn't do it.
They didn't do it.
Well, they have people specifically there to take the fall on purpose.
Right.
Now, lastly, the fourth type of hitmen that they were talking about in the study is called
the master.
Oh, hello.
Since they're never caught, it's significantly hard to study the master hitman.
But from what we do know, it pretty much goes with the guidelines from Leon in the professional,
quote, no women, no kids, that's the rules.
Yep.
These killers are typically very strict in their training, so to speak, and they have
very under the radar lifestyles, making them virtually invisible and the perfect silent
contract killer.
Sounds like Dexter.
Yeah.
It's got like a rule, like a list of rules that he adheres to.
Yeah, exactly.
He probably lives like code.
Somewhat of a normal life during his everyday life.
And that's why he didn't want to get involved with women.
They do not trust easily, and they will hardly ever get caught by being sloppy.
The study states about these hitmen, quote, it's not like you can interview these people,
but unlike the journeyman, they will not be identified locally.
They will go into an area, carry out the job, and then leave again.
It's pretty clear that they have paramilitary or military background, meaning they have
access to weapons, are comfortable around them, and are able to dispose of any evidence
linking them to the hit, end quote.
Which is what you just said.
Like these are the people that a fall guy will probably take the fall for.
Yeah.
Because they're too important.
They're too important.
They carry out too much stuff.
They probably make too much money.
They probably like all that.
So the example used to describe a master hitman in the real world was the brutal execution
of Frank McPhee in Scotland in the year 2000.
Frank was a long time Glasgow gangland boss and was reported to have built his, quote,
underworld empire on drugs and robbery.
He did serve some time in jail from 78 to 82 and again in 86 to 90 for various crimes,
but he was out after that.
It was reported that a 5,000 pound contract had been put on his life, and police were
able to work a theory that he had tried to take control of the drug trade from Irish
terrorists.
But all the police could do was come up with potential reasons for this alleged contract
because there was no confirming that the master hitman even existed.
There's no paper trail.
Exactly.
So they heard it through the grapevine that maybe this guy's a hit on him.
Have informants, probably working undercover as well.
But other than that, again, it's not like they're exchanging emails and ceasing people.
Yeah, it can all be speculation.
In May of 2000, Frank was killed by a single shot to the head from a.22 rifle with a telescope
sight outside of his home from 500 yards away.
Wow.
Unfortunately, his son was with him when he was shot and killed and witnessed his father
being shot from seemingly nowhere and died.
That's, I can't even imagine.
Like, all of a sudden.
No threat.
Probably no noise.
No nothing.
You're just going on about your day and then just.
Yeah, that's exactly what it would probably sound like to you.
Although Frank was killed just 1500 feet from a police station, the killer was never found.
Wow, he is the master.
He, well, the person that killed him is the master.
So lastly, that's the four types of hitmen.
But lastly, I just want to talk about some infamous people that hired hitmen.
Okay.
I know I know some of the cases, but I kind of went into detail, so we'll talk about these
two.
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So the first one is a man by the name of Anthony Lair, 30 years old.
He had actually hired a teenager to kill his wife in 2001, claiming that he wanted to gain
custody of their four year old daughter and obtain the rights to their assets, like their
flat and their cars and stuff like that.
Cool.
Fought for divorce like every other normal person.
So allegedly she had been denying him access to her and so he's like, well, if she's talking
about my fucking kid, yeah exactly.
But still.
Yeah.
So Anthony began thinking about this plan for many weeks or who knows how long before
he would actually ask a group of young boys outside of a McDonald's how much they would
charge to kill somebody.
Hey kids, want to make some money?
Right.
So he had actually seen the boys numerous times and even acted as like a mentor of sorts
to them.
Like he would give them advice or he would just be like cool.
He would buy them beer probably.
He would have his hands in his pockets and like he's leaning against the wall.
Like he's not dangerous.
So they believed he was making a joke but one day he shook up conversation and he's
like, hey, how much would you guys, like I just did with you?
How much did you charge to kill someone?
One of the boys, a 15 year old who was not named, replied a million dollars.
A second 16 year old boy by the nickname of Gavin replied that he would do it for just
a hundred thousand dollars.
And a third boy stated that he would do it for just a hundred dollars.
I do it for a case of beer.
Yeah.
Right?
Pat on the back and a good job.
So Anthony agreed to the price of $100,000 suggested by Gavin and he said, name a target.
Just name a target and I'll tell you, you know, in matter of fact, I'll name a better
one, my wife.
So if you could kill anybody in the world, I would say, kill my wife.
My wife.
Here's a picture of her.
She's home between these hours.
Yeah, exactly.
So he used this conversation to steer it towards his wife, Annie.
And he suggested that he would pay Gavin the amount he wanted if he would kill his wife.
And again, these are not, except for Anthony, everyone else's name is, I think it's fake,
like to conceal the identities of the other miners.
Annie is true, but she had like four names and Annie, I guess was the English version
of her name.
Oh, what is it?
Yeah.
So he told the boys that he despised his wife for not allowing him to visit their daughter
frequently and also the amount of assets he would gain if she was dead.
He's like, by the way, I want the flat.
I want the car.
Like just, can you just kill her?
Yeah.
I want the car.
Yeah, exactly.
Again, the boys perceived this as just a, haha, a joke.
And just left.
They're like, no, fuck you.
Dumbass.
So in the first week of May, 2001, Anthony yet again met up with Gavin and the other
15 year old boy who was not named and once again brought up his wife.
Oh, what are you guys going to kill my wife?
This time he straight up asked Gavin to do it, even telling him to do it by covering
her mouth with one hand and slitting her throat with a knife from behind.
He was like telling her how to do it.
He also showed photos to the boys of his life.
It's like, here's what she looks like.
Just to make sure.
Yeah.
Not mistaken identity here.
Yeah.
It was at this point that Gavin realized that Anthony was fucking serious.
Gavin said that he would consider it and he would, he wasn't going to, but he was like,
yeah, I'll consider it and he leaves.
Sure.
Yeah.
Okay.
I guess he might have been thinking about it a little bit because he did confide
in a 14 year old female friend of his that was also not named, but he was like, listen,
like, what do you think?
Yeah.
And he ultimately decided not to take Anthony up on the offer because his friend suggested
it might be a bad idea.
Maybe that.
Killing someone?
Yeah, probably bad.
Probably not.
Great thing.
Backing out, Gavin also warned his 15 year old friend not to go through with it.
Again, this 15 year old does not have a name.
I'm going to refer to this 15 year old by the alias Z, like the letter Z.
Okay.
From now on.
Another youth in the group, 22 year old Seah, was approached by Anthony to kill his wife
as well, shown the photos and offered $100,000.
After realizing that Anthony was serious, the boy declined the offer and suggested that
if Anthony wanted his wife dead, he should just hire a professional.
Yeah.
Go hire the master.
Yeah, the master.
Go hire the master.
You can even hire the novice.
I'm not doing that.
I'm not going to become the novice.
Anthony would later tell this boy that he could not find a professional to do it.
I just couldn't find what I looked everywhere.
I looked everywhere.
The best I have is a few 14 and 15 year olds.
No professionals in this area.
The last two young people in this group outside McDonald's originally, 17 and 19, later
stated that Anthony would always bring up killing his wife anytime he saw them and they
quote thought he was crazy and declined.
Like it's just like, oh shit, here it comes Anthony again.
Kill my wife, kill my wife.
He's running up.
Hey, guys, how's it going?
They're like, oh great, how are you?
He's like, fuck in wine.
My wife is still alive.
Just waiting.
However, the 15 year old Z was still not declining Anthony's offers and was still kind of considering
it.
He would eventually agree to carry out the murder.
On May 10th, 2001, Anthony brought the 15 year old to his flat and described in detail
what Annie looked like.
The youth brought a long steak knife with him, planning on carrying out the deed.
He saw Annie getting out of a cab and going into her building to get to the fourth floor.
Z tried to follow her, but he actually lost her after the elevator.
Like somehow he had, I guess he's like, lagged.
He was like, shit, she's already gone.
Trying to run up the stairs.
He would hang around for a moment and then he spotted Annie yet again, this time with
her daughter in tow, seemingly going to the park.
Upon seeing the little girl, the 15 year old decided he could not go through with it and
left.
He was not pleased with this as he told Z that he didn't care if his daughter was there
and to kill Annie anyway, even if her daughter was there.
In front of the kid?
Yeah.
Like you want custody of her, you clearly don't care about what she sees.
That if anything, she'd be a witness.
Or she'd like cling to him because of the loss of her mom.
She's like, like, chetrified or whatever.
Traumatized.
The next day, on May 11th, Z decided he would not carry out the plan.
But before he could back out entirely, he received a phone call from Anthony urging
him to do it that day.
This kid, Z, was kind of known by his friends to be a little gullible and a little influential.
Like he would kind of go along with things.
Oh, he was highly influenced.
Yeah, not influential, yeah.
But you know what I mean?
He would go along with things.
Like it was really easy to coax him into doing stuff.
And especially when it came to money.
Z would comply and once again, he would miss Annie on the fourth floor after the elevator.
I don't know how.
Dummy.
Later that day, the boy saw Annie, this time with Anthony and their daughter together.
Just hanging out with him.
He decided.
Sorry.
But what a great alibi for Anthony, right?
Yeah.
It's like he was there.
He was there.
And like someone just came up in a tactos.
So at this point, Z decided for good that he wasn't going to do it.
He's like, I'm not going to kill Annie.
Like this is a sign.
This is the fourth time I fucking tried.
Yeah.
And he would tell Anthony that he was not going to go through with the plan, but Anthony
actually threatened suicide if he didn't kill her.
So Anthony was saying like, I'm going to kill myself if you don't kill my wife.
Like okay.
He's like, go for it.
Yeah.
On top of this though, he also threatened the boy and his family if he didn't comply.
That makes more sense to me.
Yeah.
Honestly like, yeah.
Z went back to Anthony's home on May 13th, where Anthony presented him with a samurai
sword as a gift for his compliance.
He really liked it.
This kid was like, oh my God, this kid is super fucking cool.
Until Anthony stated that he wanted the boy to use it to kill his wife.
How subtle.
He killed his mother weapon.
When the boy refused yet again, he tried giving the sword back to Anthony.
Anthony would take the sword and threaten to use it to kill the boy if he didn't comply.
So now he's like threatening him.
It's not just like, hey, I'll pay you.
It's like, if you don't do this.
Why doesn't he just kill his own damn wife?
Yeah, for real.
The next 24 hours consisted of the boy trying to back out and continuously being coaxed
back into it by Anthony.
So he decided, just get this over with, like he's never gonna give up.
Yeah, he's never gonna leave me alone.
So Z would show back up to the flat on May 14th, steak knife and textbook in hand.
Textbook.
It was supposed to be his alibi that he had been out studying, I guess.
He'd taken it from his home and he was to have it with him on his person in case anything
happened.
I'm not sure.
It wasn't very well thought out.
It was an anatomy book.
It's like, oh, where's the throat again?
Yeah, and there's also a lot more detail than this, but for time's sake and since it's
a mental breakdown, I kind of just like bullet pointed the most important parts to get to
the root of the story.
This day, Anthony had also made it a point to have Annie sign some papers, essentially
like giving him his or her estate or whatever, anything like to left to him.
But I'm not sure how he kind of like did it again.
It was a lot longer of a conversation than just that, but he's getting her to sign some
papers.
Wasn't the whole point of him assassinating her or getting her assassinated was because
she wouldn't sign over things?
Yeah, and she wouldn't let him see her daughter and now all of a sudden he's hanging out with
her.
Hanging out with him.
Yeah.
I'm not sure.
Again, there's more detail, but essentially what had happened is that Anthony had snuck
the boy in.
It was like a multi-level flat.
So Anthony had snuck the boy in and while this conversation was taking place, the boy
was downstairs like kind of listening.
Yeah.
And he was kind of like spying on them.
Anthony knew it was down there, but Annie of course didn't.
So at this point, he convinces her to sign the papers and she goes, yeah, really quick,
let me just run up to my mom's flat to borrow a pen.
Her mom lived in the same apartment complex.
She's like the Airbnb.
And she probably realistically was going up there to talk to her mom about what was
going on and instead of borrowing a pen.
Yeah.
And saying, by the way, I just signed over a bunch of these assets.
Yeah.
Or I'm about to, should I or whatever.
So unbeknownst to Z, Annie's mother lived a few floors up.
So he would follow her after she leaves the flat.
He's like, oh, perfect.
I'm going to go follow her.
Maybe if he floors up, I'll kill her there.
Right.
And that also gives him Anthony and Alibi too.
And of course, yeah.
Because she was gone and Anthony actually, she was going to take the daughter with her
and Anthony was like, no, no, no, like she'll be fine.
Just let her stay with me for like five minutes while you're gone.
Thankfully, he had that fucking time.
At least, yeah.
Because he was totally willing to use his own daughter as a witness.
Yeah, exactly.
Which is gross.
After getting off of the elevator, Annie was attacked from behind with a rag put over her
screaming mouth and being stabbed in the chest and neck with a knife.
So he did it the way that Anthony told him to do it.
Yeah.
Oh, this is so fucked up.
Never had an original thought.
I always like saying that about people.
Annie would collapse to the ground and Z would flee.
Annie was actually able to stand up and make her way to her mother's door.
She either opened the door or knocked and they opened, but she was able to stay.
I doubt she knocked.
Well, I don't know.
I've been stabbed.
Can you open the door?
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Somehow the door came open.
I don't know if she opened it or if it was open.
She made noise.
Either way.
But she was able to state to her mother and her brother that she had been stabbed before
collapsing on the door again.
Okay.
That's what I was getting at.
Yeah.
It's just funny that you said knocked.
Excuse me.
I don't know.
I don't know if she knocked on the door or...
She kicked it.
I don't know.
She probably kicked it in.
At the same time, Anthony heard screaming from a few floors up and he knew that his plan
had been completed.
Ugh.
Okay, that gives me heaps.
He's like, okay, he did it.
Okay.
Yeah.
Anthony grabbed his daughter again who he had made stay with him.
He's like, sure time.
Essentially what happens after this is he pretends like, oh my God, I'm so shocked.
He brings towels.
Annie would unfortunately succumb to her injuries later at the hospital.
Oh no.
So she did kill her.
I thought you were going to tell me in the end that she ended up surviving or that he
didn't perpetrate the crime.
But then when you said that he perpetrated the crime, I was like, surely she lives.
The 15 year old boy and Anthony were actually tried together on November 19th, 2001.
So just a few months later, or I guess eight months later.
The trial would last until December 5th, 2001, where Z would be found guilty of murder.
But since he was under 18, he was sentenced indefinitely to be detained during the president's
pleasure.
I looked it up.
It pretty much just means he can't be on death row and he's in like a juvenile unit
until he turns 18.
Okay.
It's almost like an official pardon of some kind.
Yeah.
Anthony was also found guilty of soliciting the murder of his wife and sentenced to death.
Oh, good.
Yes.
Wait, so how did they find him?
They just...
I'm not sure.
Again, there was a lot more detail.
This is a really long detailed case.
And for time's sake, I didn't really go that far into it.
Either way they were caught.
Yeah.
I think the boy caved and admitted to what happened.
And of course he has all the six other fucking boys that he tried to solicit.
You know what I mean?
Oh shit, here comes Anthony again.
And I didn't mention this in the beginning, but this all happened in Singapore.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So yeah, he was sentenced to death.
The judge stated about the 15 year old quote, I see no mean miniature monster in Z. I detect
no vengeful or vicious spirit in this 15 year old boy before me.
I see instead a morose and mortified teenager who is still trying to come to terms with
the cataclysmic events of the last seven months.
He is not capable of concocting such an elaborate and consistent yarn.
He does not have the presence of mind nor the mental agility to utilize and corrupt
information to his own advantage or to the detriment of others.
So he knew that he was coaxed into it essentially.
Do you think that Z was like neurodivergent or something?
I think he was.
Okay.
At least slightly, because the kiddos had kind of mentioned something about that as well.
So Z would spend 17 years in prison and he was a model prisoner.
He actually got his schooling and all that stuff taken care of.
And he would eventually be released on November 2nd, 2018.
Wow.
He is a free man.
They did go through with the death penalty with Anthony.
I see.
Okay.
Now we're going to talk about one more case of someone hiring.
That one is a doozy.
I know.
It was a lot.
Oh my gosh.
In January of 1994, a man by the name of Robert Frada of Houston, Texas hired two men to
murder his wife as they were going through a custody battle of their three children.
We've heard this before.
It's a tale as old as time.
God.
Robert hired Joseph Price-Dash to arrange for the murder of Farah Frada and Joseph would
go on to hire the gunman, Howard Gheedry.
So Farah is the mother.
Okay.
So maybe it seemed to be potential victim.
Yes.
Well, victim nonetheless, even if she doesn't either way.
Yes.
Because she's at least a victim of conspiracy.
Yeah.
Farah had dropped the three children off shortly before returning home one day where she was
met with the gunman and shot fatally twice.
I'm pretty sure it was like in the garage too, it was weird.
And I didn't really get too far into like how he hired them, how he met them and all
that stuff.
Yeah.
But we'll find something out in a second.
As per court records, in the days leading up to the crime, the former cop had told his
friends about his plan to murder his wife.
The husband was a cop?
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
Even going as far as to ask for advice on potential hitmen.
Hey, you guys have worked with hitmen in the past, right?
Any takers?
Any outstanding people that I can hire?
He had allegedly said, quote, I'll just kill her and I'll do my time and when I get out,
I'll have my kids.
Bitch, no the fuck you won't.
You do not know how the judicial system works.
Clearly not.
You're not going to have my time.
I'm just going to do my time.
He's going to do my time.
Yeah.
You mean life?
Yeah.
He probably thinks he's going to get 10 hours of community service or some shit.
Probably true.
He has, I mean, that sounds really bad, but he probably has pull, you know what I mean?
Well, yeah, that's what they call it.
Oh, you know what they call that, the courtesy.
Yeah, well, it didn't work for him because he was tried and sentenced to death in 1996
for this murder for hire.
That's awful.
Although the conviction was initially overturned due to technicalities and the judicial proceedings.
Excuse me.
He would be re-sentenced for the killing in 2009 to death row.
I'm not sure what happened, but he was re-sentenced.
The guys?
I'm sure they got a plea deal or something for turning off him.
Probably, yeah.
I'm not going to turn over on him.
The judge was known as saying about this, quote, Trial evidence showed Frata to be egotistical,
misogynistic, and vile with a callous desire to kill his wife.
Ew.
No.
I'm an Iocle sweat.
His children would be raised by his parents following his wife's death and incarceration
and the children would actually change their last names to their mother's maiden name.
Aw.
Yeah.
On January 10th, 2023, so a few months ago.
My birthday.
At a 65-year-old, Robert Frata received a lethal injection at Huntsville Prison.
Oh.
He was actually the second person killed for capital punishment in Texas.
I'm sorry, first in Texas and second in the United States of the year.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Wow.
And apparently we have like eight more scheduled for this year in Huntsville alone, just Texas.
Wow.
Yeah.
Well, Texas doesn't fuck around.
True.
Yeah, if you don't get killed before you go to prison, you're definitely going to get
killed in prison.
Yeah.
A few minutes before the execution began, Robert was asked by the warden if he had a final
statement to which he replied, no.
No.
Just no.
I don't know why I'm here.
His son, Conn, was present at his execution.
Conn was known as saying, well, it was like his son and his brother, I think, and his
dad, I were also there.
Conn was known as saying, this is his son, quote, Bob was a coward in 1994 when he arranged
the murder for hire of his estranged wife and 29 plus years later, he was still a coward
tonight when he was offered an opportunity to at least extend an olive branch to his
son that he knew was watching this.
And he still shows the cowards way out.
He could have said, I'm sorry.
End quote.
And he just, I'm calling him Bob.
I know, right?
Bob was a fucking coward.
Fucking Bob.
That was a collective fucking Bob.
But yeah, that's pretty much all I have.
I did just want to bring up two more because I know that you know about these two, but
two more really infamous people that have to do with this.
So one is a contract killer who is, of course, Bugsy Siegel.
He worked for the organization Murder Incorporated and he was known as an enforcer.
Enforcer, yeah.
And do you want to say anything about him before I go to my next one?
No.
Okay.
And then the other one is Joe Exotic.
I'm never gonna financially recover from this.
But he allegedly hired a hitman to kill Carol Baskins.
Carol Baskins.
That's what he's in prison for.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, and animal cruelty.
Of course.
Yeah.
But I found like 20 buried tigers on this property.
I know, it's awful.
All with like gunshot wounds in their heads or whatever.
That's terrible.
That is awful.
I have the tigers.
When I updated my calendar for May, I was just looking at it, I have a little sticker
of him.
It's a sticker of him and it says I'm never gonna financially recover from this.
It's where?
It's on my calendar.
It's on your calendar.
It's hilarious.
The last one that I was thinking that you might talk about would be Dalia de Bolito.
And Dalia de Bolito was like, she was trying to hire someone to murder her husband.
And like, it was like a friend of a friend or something that she had asked.
And this guy tipped off cops.
And so the cops were like, oh, well, can you just like refer her this way?
And so there was a UC, an undercover cop.
Oh yeah.
Is she videoed from inside the car?
From inside the car.
Yeah, I've seen that before.
Yeah, it's bad.
Yeah, but the most interesting part about it is that they take pictures of him murdered
or whatever.
And then they show him to her and they're like, oh yeah, like, you know, this has been taken
care of or whatever.
And they told him about it and he was in on it?
Yeah, the husband.
So they took pictures of the husband like he was dead.
Like they did his hands behind his back and everything.
So the fake hitman or the undercover cop shows her these photos and she's like, oh, like
totally got it.
Right?
I'm pretty sure she's also the one that gave him $100 as a down payment when she was planning
on paying him 50 cases.
Yeah.
Well, the rest of the money is going to come from his life insurance policy.
So here's $100 is all I have.
Actually I might be confusing two other cases because the Dalia de Bolito one is the one
where she's the video of her coming home and she's like, what's going on?
I was just at the gym.
Oh yeah.
And they're like, I'm sorry, but your husband's murdered.
She's like, this is really, really bad.
And then, but I think that maybe the cops show her the photos or whatever it is.
Anyways, he like, at one point they were like, okay, well you're being arrested for solicitation
of murder or whatever.
And she's like, what?
I don't know what you're talking about.
And then the husband walks in and she's like, honey.
Oh honey, baby, like what's going on?
Like, yeah, I've seen both of those.
I know both of what you're talking about.
So bad.
But then she claimed later that she was manipulated into doing it.
I don't know what the fuck whoever she was talking to, I guess.
Well, yeah, that's my mental breakdown.
I thought it was definitely something different, but really interesting.
And I didn't know like any of that before I started researching it.
Me neither.
Well, because then when you started explaining the four different kinds, I was thinking in
my head like, oh yeah, that sounds like, you know, like James Bond or that sounds like
these real world examples like Ezio from Assassin's Creed.
Exactly.
Yeah, interesting.
Yeah, so that was my minty breaky.
Anything else you got?
No.
I think that's all I got.
That was a long mental breakdown.
But we are going to be back on Thursday with another case.
Check out Movier Scared.
Movier Scared.
Movication and later scare.
Okay, we need Movication and Later Scaring us to get together to do a collaboration.
Check out a really scary movie.
Movier Scared.
That's so good.
Check out both of their podcasts and then check out the episodes that Koala and I are featured
on.
And we are going to be back on Thursday with another doozy of a fucking case.
This one's going to be wild.
I've been researching it for quite a while and it's two people actually that we're going
to be doing Hint Hint.
And there's some recent updates.
So yeah, I love that.
I love that.
Recent updates.
I know.
And well, I'm not like not super recent like January 10th.
Yeah.
In the meantime, check out our merch on DignityNCcular.com.
Check out the website.
We have analytics guys.
We can see when y'all are looking at our website.
We can see where you click too.
Yeah.
Like specifically, we're not like CIA.
We're not creepy.
But we can see how many times each page has been clicked.
So do a little exploration on the site.
We want to see everybody, as many people that is looking at the main page, we want you to
see just as many people looking at the merch page, the upcoming events page, and even that
resource tab.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And get your merch.
I am in the works of getting a couple things.
I definitely want to get, I think I want to get a hoodie, honestly.
I like the canvas bag.
The Yikes on Bikes canvas bag is so cute.
I am pillow with the face.
The pillow with the smiley face.
Yeah.
I'm definitely going to buy a shirt as soon as we get off of this live.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
This live.
All right guys, we will talk to you later.
Follow us on social media at DignityNCcular.
All right.
Love you.
Bye.
Love you.
Yeah.
You have worked so hard for a long time now.
Alright.
Yeah.
Great.
What's your dream job in London?
Well, here it is.
I'm in the Czech Republic, so I said bad
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