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Are you a true crime advocate? Are you passionate about uncovering the truth and bringing justice

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to victims? Do you love the paranormal and spooky tales? If you answered yes to any of

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these questions, then you won't want to miss the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival

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in Austin, Texas, this August from the 25th to the 27th. This festival features panel

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discussions, workshops, and live podcasts focusing on ethics and advocacy in the true

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crime sphere. Get your tickets now at TrueCrimePodcastFestival.com and join us in Austin for an unforgettable

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experience.

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Hello. Hello. Hi. Whoa, that was really different. That was different. It was a little different.

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You're like, hello. Answering a phone. Hello. Hello. That's all I say. Yeah. All right.

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I like to say hello. I hate, you know what I fucking hate? People go, talk to me. Like,

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fuck you. Like, that's what I'm going to do. Like, you know what I'm going to do. Talk

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to me. I hate that shit. Like, are you fucking James Bond? Yeah. I just want to sometimes

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just say, uh, go for co. Go for co. Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing A

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Killer. I'm Koelle. And I'm Kenna. Lovely to see you all. Lovely to see you all. You

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guys all look so beautiful today. Yeah. Keep doing what you're doing because you look fantastic.

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Honestly. Yeah. Goals. Mm-hmm. Everyone should just be like super self-caring now. Yeah.

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Because about our last couple episodes have just been all about, like, the feels. I know.

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Yeah. Really about the feels. I fucking cried last week or earlier this week. I cried today.

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I don't cry every day, but on the podcast, I mean. Yeah. It was a little intense. Yeah.

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For sure. I think it's just like the weirdness and the weather for me. Seriously. Some things

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are a little out of my, I guess, normal routine and just adjusting. Yeah. Honestly. I was

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listening to a different podcast earlier today and it's like their most recent episode and

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they said that it's like off and on, like still snowing. They're in like Tennessee, I think.

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Mm-hmm. And they're like, God, like the weather got so nice and then it fucking snowed today.

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Like what is that about? Like, I couldn't imagine that because I mean, it's like rare

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if we see snow once a year. Sure. Yeah. And it's not even fucking snow. No. It's like

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sleet. And then it like, if it sticks, it's very rare. It's been cold the last like two

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days. I love the cold though. I mean. I love the cold. I want the cold to be here for forever

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and it's like late March, which is kind of unusual. I'm a big fan of the cold too.

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But it hasn't really, I mean, it's like 60 degrees. It's not like actually cold.

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Like if you put it like, yeah. You do. It's like, no. It's not like it's, it's not like it's in the 30s.

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It was in the 1930s. Oh, okay. Well, what have we got going on? You guys obviously heard about the

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True Crime Paranormal Podcast Festival happening in August. We are going to be there as hosts.

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We're super excited to meet everybody and maybe have a panel. Maybe? Question mark? We don't know.

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Not sure yet. Not sure. We're definitely going to have merch and at our booth, if you sign up for our

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Patreon, you might get some free goodies. Ooh, yeah. If you've heard about that. Speaking of Patreon,

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we do have those tiers set up for everybody. Just as a reminder, a $20 Patreon donation gets you

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ad free episodes as well as all of the goodies and then $10 and $5. You also get goodies as well.

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And email us at diagnosingakiller at gmail.com. If you don't already have us on social media,

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we are at diagnosingakiller everywhere with the exception of Twitter that is at killerdiagnosis.

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And of course, we have the website, diagnosingakiller.com. And you can find all that information on

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our website at diagnosingakiller.com. Yeah, it's looking really good. Thanks. We're excited about that.

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We need to put an about us tab on there, but because you guys always want to know about us. Yeah,

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because it's all about us. Of course. There is a resource tab on there where you will find the

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national suicide lifeline, travel project, veterans, reach out outreach program, and things of the

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like. So yes. Yeah. But of course, if you have an emergency, you've dial 911. Yeah, of course.

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And just lastly, I just want to say shout out to all the podcasts that have reached out to us and

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told us that they like what we're doing. That's also like really cool, not only coming from our

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listeners, but also coming from other creators. I think that kind of makes me want to like pat

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myself on the back. And I've had a couple of podcasters reach out and say that the website

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looks really great. Cool. Yeah. Well, that's exciting. Yeah. Makes me feel good. Yeah.

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Just a little feel good, feel good. What day is it? Wednesday. Good Friday. Well, yeah. Go

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forward. Go ahead. Today, we are going to be talking about Mark David Chapman.

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Okay. Do you know who it is? It sounds familiar. Okay. You will. You'll know. Okay. Content

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warning. This episode depicts scenes of domestic violence, drug use and suicide. Although these

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topics are described in a sensitive manner, the subject matter may still be disturbing.

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If this episode isn't for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes. Remember

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that your mental health is important to us and we love you. We love you. Bye. That was a really cool

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like. Go ahead. Mark David Chapman was fine. Lost my thought completely. I was just going to say

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like we said bye at the same time. Like what's it called like rehearsed? Not rehearsed. Usually,

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we look at each other when it happens. Yeah. And so we know when he just put based off of,

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you know, reading each other's lips because you can't really hear other than in the headset.

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But we usually look at each other and then we usually say love you. Bye. But that time I had

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my head down and you're you're looking over there. So cross-eyed for a second. I think we're just

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used to it. Mark David Chapman was born May 10th, 1955 in Fort Worth, Texas. Fort Worth.

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Fort Worth. Oh, do we ever say on the podcast like what that was about? Because I asked, I said,

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what do you say it like that for? And you go ask mom. I asked mom. Did I tell you? No. She said

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that it was like this drunk asshole, like when they were on vacation one time or like he kept

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like he was like this big like burly guy that was like trying to show off and you come say I'm from

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Fort Worth. I thought it was mom's friend's brother. Oh, I don't know who it was. Either way,

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he was clearly like a showboat and he was like, Fort Worth. You're making us look bad. Shut up.

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So Mark David Chapman was eventually the eldest of two kids. His parents were David Curtis Chapman

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and his mother was Diane Elizabeth Peace. Peace, like a peace sign? Well, it's P-E-A-S-E. So it's

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like peace. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Give peace a chance. I just find that ironic later. Oh. Yeah.

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Oh. Then there was no peace. Then there was no peace. After the couple had Mark, the small family

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moved to Atlanta, Georgia. Mark's father was in the Air Force. He was actually an Air Force staff

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sergeant and his mother was a nurse. Mark's father was described as a shy and timid man,

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but he had been known to have outbursts of anger and rage when becoming stressed,

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kind of like an attempt to actually express emotion. So he was one of those guys where it would just

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build up for forever and then explode because he didn't know how to, you know. Yeah, no, that shows

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someone that was probably not allowed to express feeling in their childhood. Sure. These instances

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were seemingly random and there was usually no warning signs for these kinds of aggressive

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outbursts. Ooh, that's kind of scary. Right? Yeah, could you imagine living like that? It's like

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unpredictable. You don't really know. Yeah, you don't know when it's going to be triggered.

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Ooh, I feel like they're probably like walking on eggshells like all the time. Right? Just a,

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a, under the threat of like explosion at any time. Yeah. His mother was described as a sort of head

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in the clouds, aloof and often moody person who rarely was warm towards her children. Okay, like

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just with those comments about both of them, like I feel like they both have mental illness.

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Sure. Like based on their, yeah, maybe, maybe not the dad, maybe he just had like a stunted

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emotional growth, but the mom like that sounds like dissociative. Exactly. I was going to say

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that dissociative disorder of some kind. While Mark was growing up, while, Jesus Christ,

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while Mark was growing up, his father would become physically abusive towards his mother.

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It's not entirely clear whether or not his father was abusive before Mark was born. So they might

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have had domestic violence situations before Mark was born. Again, he's the eldest. I just,

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it didn't describe whether or not there was a family history of that before Diane had children.

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So do you think that maybe he might have been abusive while she was pregnant with Mark?

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So not confirmed. Okay. However, it wasn't really noted anywhere that David was physically

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abusive to the children. But Mark does remember hearing screaming in the middle of the night as

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his mother was being assaulted. Oh my God, that's awful. He would often lay in bed and for many

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years he wished that he had the courage to rush in and save his mother. Oh my God, how helpless.

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After years of listening to this abuse regularly, Mark would eventually gain the courage

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to confront his dad in the middle of the night. And he does remember physically pushing him or

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forcing his father off of his mother, or at least in his mind. At this point, he's like five or six.

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That's got to be like really traumatic. Mark would say later in life, quote,

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I'd wake up hearing my mother screaming my name and it just scared the fire out of me. I'd run in

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there and I just wanted to make him go away. Sometimes I think I actually did try to push him

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away and quote. It's a baby. Yeah. So by age seven, Mark's younger sister Susan would actually be

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born, which again, looking at the timeline, she was likely assaulted while she was pregnant.

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I doubt the dad took off nine months. Yeah, he wasn't just like, oh, okay, like I'll just like,

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I'll just not be upset with you anymore. Not my dick. Yeah, for nine months, which is really,

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really sad. Around this time, Mark would begin to obsess about thoughts of shooting his father

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to save his family from the abuse. Oh my gosh. And he's like seven years old. Yeah. But clearly,

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he has knowledge of what it means to shoot someone, whether he saw it on TV or he saw it with his

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parents, you know, not forbid. He began a fantasize about controlling a group of quote,

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little people that resided in the walls of his room. Okay, sounds vaguely similar to our last

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episode. Yeah. And it sounds I'm sure all the listeners by now have gathered what that means.

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Potentially schizophrenia disorder. Maybe. Sure. Yeah, especially if it's abnormal behavior,

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visual hallucinations, something that is not or could be described as imaginative play. Yeah.

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He would often talk to them and order them around. And of course, they would do all of his bidding.

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He said quote, I used to fantasize that I was a king and I had all these little people around me

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and that they lived in the walls and that I was their hero and I was on their newspaper every

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day or I was on their TV every day and that I was really important. They all kind of worship me.

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You know, it was like I could do no wrong. Sometimes when I'd get mad, I would blow some of them up.

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I have this push button thing as part of the sofa. And when I'd get mad, I would blow out part of the

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wall and a lot of them would die. But the people would still forgive me for that. And you know,

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everything would get back to normal. It's just a fantasy I had for many years. End quote.

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Now that sounds like narcissistic personality disorder because that's like a grandiose sense

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of self. Like I'm up here and you're down there. But that's also really young. It is. I think it's

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more of like, you know, this kind of this parallel between being like a king or a god. And that's

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definitely a theme that we'll see later as well. And I really do think it is because he, you know,

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clearly his dad had a certain type of temperament and he ruled the house. It's the control thing,

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right? Yeah. And he probably feels so powerless at home that he like creates this like imaginary

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world where like he has all the power. Exactly. Like all of the power. That's really sad. And it's

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also really fucking detrimental like that. Fuck that dad for like doing that. I know. You know,

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and it really, really just goes to show like the nurture versus nature thing. Like the nurture

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with that. Had he treated his children and his wife appropriately, this again, that's we always

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talk about things that lead up to the horrible crimes. Right. Who knows, maybe he wouldn't have

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grown up with that sense of self. He would have grown up being loved and being humble. And yeah,

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exactly. His father would give Mark his first musical outlet in the form of a Beatles record

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to which Mark listened to as often as he could. His father would also gift him a guitar one year

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and often had Mark practice on Boy Scout trips like in around campfires and stuff. Mark took to

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playing easily and it became very natural to him. Mark was inspired by John Lennon and many

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similar musicians popular at the time. By the time that Mark began high school, he began to be severely

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bullied. He wasn't an athlete by any means and he would often be made fun of for his weight and

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on coordination. Feeling a lot of social pressure, Mark would start skipping school and abusing drugs.

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He did this for the first two years of high school and on one occasion he ran away from home

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and tried living on the Atlanta streets. However, he would return home just after two weeks.

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He just really didn't want to be home. Like living on the streets is better than being home

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in his mind. And he's like 15, 16 at this time. He's a kid. Poor kid. In his junior year of high

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school, Mark partook in some LSD and he would have a terrible trip. The cops were called and Mark was

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picked up and put into a jail cell to sober up. David went to pick his son up the next day and

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became emotional in front of Mark while he expressed his concern for his son's health and behavior.

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So it's like you've only ever abused mom in front of me. You've only ever been kind of this tyrant

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type dude. Well, on occasion because he was other than that, he was very self-spoken, right? Yeah.

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But now it's all this sudden I pick you up and I'm balling my eyes out. It's a manipulation tactic.

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Oh my god. How could you? I feel so bad for you that you're doing this to yourself. How could

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you do this? It's never like, wow, maybe my actions caused his reaction. It's always like,

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why did you do that? You're disappointing me. Well, it could also be that, you know, the dad just,

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again, harbored all of these feelings and then it just came out another type of explosion. Not an

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anger explosion, but like a sad, you know, feeling that he had never really expressed before. He

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maybe recognized for the first time that like what he did was like detrimental. Sure. Yeah. I mean,

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clearly he connected enough with Mark to give him a guitar and like want to vibe with him on music

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and he was a, he went, took him to Boy Scouts, you know, things like that. So it's not like his

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father wasn't an active participant in Mark's life. He just, it's the unpredictability, I think

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is what I'm trying to get at. And he might have a bipolar disorder or something, something that

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it's where it's very extreme emotions one way or the other. That's very true. Yeah. So this was,

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would be the first and only time that Mark would ever see his father cry in his entire life.

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And it really profoundly affected Mark. Yeah. So this would be around like 1970, 1971.

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After falling out with some of the only friends that Mark had at the time,

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he had actually become extremely depressed. He knew that he only had two choices, which was

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continuing his life of deep dark depression or turn to God. Mark threw himself into religious text

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and became a born again Presbyterian. Really? Wow. Yeah. Which is, I mean, I wouldn't say not

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extreme, but it seemed like they didn't really grow up very religious. And then now it's, but

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honestly, it's better than the alternative. Oh, of course. Like he's clearly trying to get some help

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and write his life. But I feel like we also see that all the time in cases like this. It's like,

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they either, they throw themselves into one thing and it's like, okay, clearly, like there's a lot

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on these people's minds, right? They're thinking about a lot of stuff at the same time. So throwing

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yourself so deeply into something is almost like a distracting point. Yeah. But the root of the problem

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is not that you're not religious enough or that you're not academically inclined enough or athletic.

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It's that there's probably, again, underlying mental illness and just diving into something

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like that and distracting your mind is definitely not going to fix what's going on. But I can see

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why they would think that maybe. Let me just dive into this and distract myself and maybe I'll find

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the answers somewhere. I agree with that. It's, you know, you throwing yourself into something that

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you feel like is something that everybody considers to be good. Yeah. Instead of something that people

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consider to be bad behavior, you know, if there's good, you know, good or bad behavior, he would

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often take Christian brochures and flyers to school to distribute them among other students.

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It would be around this time that Mark began dating his first girlfriend, Jessica Blinkenship,

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which right here I put LOL because of Kenny Blinkenship from Most Extreme Elimination Challenge

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because that show was fucking hilarious. I have no idea what either of those things are.

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Me and Cameron used to watch it all the time. Oh really? Yeah. Guy LaDouche? Hell yeah.

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I have to show you that show. You've never seen it? I don't think so. Oh gosh.

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Now finding his path a little bit, Mark also began to work as a cap, cap counselor.

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Also began to work as a camp counselor for a local YMCA. Mark thrived here, of course, again,

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throwing yourself into something that is perceived to be good. Well, also probably in his mind in a

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position of authority, quote unquote. That's true because he did teach kiddos and all the kids loved

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him. He was actually that fun, cool counselor who played guitar and listened to like really cool

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music. He's so into the Beatles. He's so cool. He's so down to earth. They nicknamed him Nemo,

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like Captain Nemo from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Oh no, it's you like finding Nemo. Call me the

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Captain. Call me the Colonel. I thought you were talking about finding Nemo and I was like,

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how did they come up with that nickname? Like what's the comparison? No, that's what Nemo's named

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after though. Oh really? I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it would make sense. I did not name that. By the

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following year, he was named Assistant Director of the Camp and won an Outstanding Counselor Award.

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Oh, I bet he loved that. I'm sure he fucking did. I'm outstanding. I'm the Outstanding Counselor.

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Call me the Captain. It's like, and we see that a lot of the times too in these cases, like,

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I think it was, um, B2Hare, Dennis Ray, you're like, stop fucking giving this guy awards.

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His head is just like a thousand miles wide. He was, he was like Best Neighbor Award and like

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all that shit. Best Colonel. Best Colonel Award. The Chicken Man. He also got along very well with

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the other staff members, so he was known to be, you know, to get along with people. He was just a

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cool dude. He was just a really cool guy. This is all towards the end of his high school years.

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So by the end of senior year, Mark had become Obsessed with the Book, The Catcher in the Rye

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by J.D. Salinger. Obsessed. Do you say? Obsessed. It was recommended to him by a friend.

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Mark fell in love with the book and considered himself to be reminiscent of the main character

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Holden Caulfield. Oh, fucking course he did. Right? I'm the main character. So if anybody's

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never read Catcher in the Rye, some little tidbits about it, it became a cult classic type book,

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very popular amongst angsty and rebellious teens, especially in the 70s. It was written in the 40s,

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I think. It talks of depression, being sexually active, and finding one's identity.

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All high school things. All high school things. From the first time that he read it, Mark dedicated

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himself to living more like Holden. Oh, okay. He's like obsessed with him. It reminds me of-

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Why is he obsessed with me? It reminds me of Richard Trenton Chase when he wanted to be part of that

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western, like, the band dance, and he taped a picture of himself on the poster with it.

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Wanted. Dinner live. Oh, god. Oh, shit. After graduating high school, Mark began attending

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college, although I'm not sure where because it didn't last long. He went for a semester,

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went to college, didn't find what it was. I'm sure there's some internet sleuths out there

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that can figure out who it was. But either way, Mark took his leave of college and began playing

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guitar in local Christian shops. Okay. He enjoyed visiting different cities like Chicago and often

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played Christian music at little local coffee shops and stuff. Chicago. Chicago. Around this time,

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he began to denounce the Beatles and especially John Lennon for his famous quotes around comparing

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the band and himself to Jesus or God, especially the famous quote, quote, we're more popular than

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Jesus. Do you remember that? Yeah, I remember that. But isn't that what this guy's fucking doing too?

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So he's mad that someone else is using his idea about trying to be like God because he's feeling

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that way about himself. Well, he has. He did in the past, right? Like, he was like playing God

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with these little people. But then he became a born again Christian. Remember, he's very, very

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serious about it. Oh, so now he's like, now he's like, absolutely fucking not. Yeah, he's like,

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no, absolutely not. You're not more popular. Jesus and God is like, you know, they are the almighty.

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They end all the all. Yeah. So for for John Lennon to say something like that was very like,

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like he was offended. I'm sure he wasn't. A lot of people were offended. A lot of people were offended

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though. So he traveled for some time, you know, writing music and all that sort of stuff. But

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eventually he enrolled in the same college that Jessica was attending his girlfriend,

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Covenant College, and it was back in Georgia. So this school was actually an Evangelical

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Liberal Arts College, which I've never heard of before. Evangelical Liberal Arts.

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During his attendance here over the course of the first year, Mark would actually break things off

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with Jessica when he had admitted to being unfaithful to her. And the guilt became all consuming.

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Thou shalt not commit adultery or cheat. That's like, come on. But he's also a traveling musician.

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He's like really cool. And he got outstanding counselor awards. And don't tell me that you're

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better than God because you're not. Exactly. But then I that's what I also don't like to like,

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you know, no one's fucking perfect, right? Like I consider myself, I'm not religious,

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but I have faith. And that's just how I identify. But I'm not going to be like, oh my God, I am such

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a born again, like really devoted Christian. And then sin. Yeah, critical. It's exactly. It's

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exactly. And, and you know, that's why I don't walk around preaching everything because I'm not

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fucking perfect. And I know that I'll probably do something bad again. Yeah. But I don't like when

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people, again, do that, they express how devout they are. And then they do something like this.

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I mean, he did admit it to her. It's not like he kept it a secret. Okay, but doing it in the first

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place goes against everything that he's preaching. Yeah. I'm just saying he probably didn't really

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care as much. I that's what I'm saying. I think that's what I'm trying to say is I think he,

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similarly to other people we've talked about, I don't really think that they're actually that

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devout. They just need something to hold on to. Hold on to. Yeah. Yeah. Mark began to fall behind on

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his grades and would eventually drop out of college yet again, only worsening his deep depression.

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So he did come back to school. He went with the intention of going with his girlfriend,

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broke up with her because he cheated on her. And then there's no need to go to college.

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Just runs away from it. Yeah, exactly. Mark tried to go to work again at the camp. However,

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it was short-lived after an altercation between him and another staff member occurred.

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Okay. So he's already in this depressive state then, you know, dropped out of college again,

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tried to go back to work and then was ultimately let go. Probably telling himself over and over

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like you're a failure. Sure. You can't keep a job. You can't stay in school. You can't keep a

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relationship like all these things. Mark soon applied to become a security guard and after

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some training, he was able to carry a service weapon. Oh my God. Again, law enforcement.

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Yeah. Which is gross. Which is gross. It's just like, oh, take this 30 minute class. Here's a gun.

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Yeah, that is gross. But yeah, law enforcement too. Like we see that like

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fucking in order to become the fucking cheerleader or something. Yeah. The dean becomes the pope.

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After a huge falling out with his parents, because he was still pretty much living in and out of his

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parents' house at this point, he was forced to move from the family home and he actually began

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sleeping on the streets half of the time. And the other half of the time he was actually staying

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at the YMCA. When you were, I don't think you can stay at YMCA's anymore, but you used to be able to.

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I don't think so. Mark was likely at his worst rock bottom when he bought a one-way ticket to

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Hawaii. He was houseless, kind of working, not really, and then has a weapon and now he's going

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to Hawaii. No, he's going to Hawaii. Okay. Makes sense. I mean, that's exactly what I would do. I

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don't know about you. Mark, while in a car that he parked in a parking lot, attempted to commit

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suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning. Oh my gosh. Yeah, he bought a one-way ticket to Hawaii. He

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didn't want to come back. This is while he was in Hawaii? He did this? Like he immediately went to

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Hawaii and attempted suicide. I wonder, I mean, just the thought process there. Like why did he go

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so far away? I don't know. Maybe because he didn't want his parents to like get right out. Maybe he

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didn't want to be found. Yeah. That's sad. However, the garden hose used to attach the exhaust pipe

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melted after Mark passed out, which in turn saved his life. So he was like committed? Yeah. Like for

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sure. And it was like an accident that he did. That he survived. Oh my gosh. A bystander came

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across Mark in his car and called 911. Mark was transported to the hospital and although he would

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recover, he would be admitted to a psychiatric hospital for evaluation. Good. So at the hospital,

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Mark would be diagnosed with severe depression by a psychiatrist on staff. After his discharge,

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Mark began to work as a custodial engineer within the hospital. Remember we talked about fluffing

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resumes? That's exactly what I thought about. Custodial engineer. Good for him though. While

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working at the hospital, Mark would find that his mother was actually divorcing his father

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and that Diane would eventually move to Hawaii to be closer to Mark. Wow. So she just like dropped

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that on him like randomly? Yeah. It's kind of like, oh shit, like you didn't divorce this piece of

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shit while we were children, but now the role moves out of the house. Go for it. Now you can come to

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terms with it. Yeah. Because you're the only one that's, you know, there. Yeah. It's like Richard

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Chase's. I listened to that episode recently. It's like Richard Chase's parents. Like they waited

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until they kids were in high school. They finally fucking decided that they didn't like each other.

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I'm like, you guys have been at each other's throats since like before I was born. Just

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ripped the band-aid off. Yeah. So yes, Diane moved to Hawaii to be closer to her son. I bet she was

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like, fuck this. I'm out. I'm out. You're living in Hawaii, bro. I'm fucking meeting you up there.

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Whatcha doing? Fuck this piece of shit. In 1978, once Mark saved up a buh-ba-da. So in 1978, so this

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is a few years after he had been working at the hospital, once Mark had saved up quite a bit of

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money and feeling optimistic and pretty good at this point in his life, he decided to travel the

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world after being inspired by the movie and book around the world in 80 days. Huh. Interesting.

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The trip was to last six weeks and he would visit Singapore, Tokyo, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Seoul, New

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Delhi, Beirut, Geneva, London, Paris, and Dublin. Jesus. In six weeks. Jesus Christ. There's a lot

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of places. Well, he also went from like not having somewhere to live, like barely making any money

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to like now traveling the world, living his best life. That's kind of inspirational. I'm like,

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cool. I just want to do that. Yeah. I mean, also, I didn't mention this earlier and I'm not sure if

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it's like this today. Anybody that's listening in Hawaii, please let us know. But when I went,

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when I was 15, they had, we had like a tour guide that took us across like the whole island and they

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had like their government, if you will, or like their community sets up tents in their, in their

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city parks for the homeless. Oh, and it's free. Like they, as opposed to like what we do here,

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like we tear down things like that. Yeah. They put up tents in the parks and the parks are fucking

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beautiful, of course. And I thought that was really interesting. I was like, okay, like that's at least,

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at least if someone's going to be on the street, this tiny sliver of silver lining is that they

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at least have shelter. Yeah. So I thought that was really, really cool that they do that. That's nice.

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I don't know if they do that anymore, but they did.

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While on this trip, Mark would actually begin seeing his travel agent. Oh, Japanese American,

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Gloria Abe. Okay. The two would quickly marry in June of 1979. How many times have we said that

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sentence? And I love that we've been doing this. We should make a t-shirt that says the two would

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quickly marry. The two would quickly be married. Oh my gosh. Oh, they always marry so fast. They do.

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When Mark returned back to work after his trip, he would actually begin working isolated in the

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printing slash kind of office room. Okay. So he just like made copies and shit. Making copies.

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You don't, okay. I don't know what that's from. I know it's Rob Schneider. And I only know that

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because it's a family guy quote though. It's like, oh, you have to sleep with Rob Schneider.

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It's a night. He's like making copies. And the girl's like, I was born in 1987.

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I'm so stupid. I don't even know what that's from. Making copies. It was a, it was a Nelson

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Elsket. Oh, it was. Yeah. So Mark was making copies. But also while we're here, Mark began to,

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because he was now isolated instead of being a custodial engineer, where he was walking around

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the hospital talking to people, he was now isolated in a room all day long. Was his wife

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living with him or is she still living in? She did move with him. She moved with Mark.

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Sorry, I missed that. I think that she probably already lived in Hawaii. Okay. Because it was

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his travel. I'm sure he went somewhere and she advised him or whatever. I don't, it was unclear

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whether or not she was on the trip, but either way, Mark was actually quickly fired for starting

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an argument with a co-worker in this department. Okay. Okay. In the copy thingy or whatever. He

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started an argument and after being hired back at the hospital in another department,

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he would quickly be fired from this position as well. Kind of sounds like that's his like

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MO is like arguing with, you know, peers and then getting fired. And then getting fired. So

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it's just interesting because I wonder if it's similar to the outburst that his dad had. Yeah.

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Where it was he would bottle things in and he'd stew about it and then it would explode one day

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and cause an argument between co-worker. I mean, honestly, like I've argued with plenty of

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co-workers and not gotten fired over it. So it must have been like an argument worth firing.

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So what if I really, I mean, I've had my fair share of disagreements. I wouldn't say like arguments.

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Oh no, I'm not like yelling at anyone, but you know what I mean? Like I've had a lot of

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disagreements with co-workers. Well, I can work with anybody. I mean, if you work with somebody

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all the fucking time, you get kind of comfortable, you know, to like have disagreements about things,

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but he was fired for failing to maintain an amicable workspace. So I'm assuming it's not just

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one problem with one person. It's true, probably built up. Yeah. But that was like the kicker.

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Slowly going into what would be extreme debt at this point because he was having a hard time keeping

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up with bills, Mark began to mentally deteriorate and spiral into obsessive thoughts of religion

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and his extreme hatred for the Beatles and especially John Lennon. Oh, okay, so we can see where this

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is going. Yeah, if you didn't know who Mark David Chapman is, you might know now. I'm getting a little

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bit of an inkling. He began to read autobiographies of John Lennon and was absolutely infuriated that

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although John spoke of peace, love, and equality, he was exceptionally rich and lived a lavish lifestyle.

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I mean, yeah, like I can understand how that's like a little frustrating, but like that's all it is.

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It's like, oh, okay, yeah, cool. Like you want to preach about living minimalistically and you're

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rich, cool. You know, but like it's nothing more than that in my mind. Yeah. Mark would also walk

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around singing or humming the tune Imagine, often changing the words to imagine if John Lennon was dead.

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So you're like hating on the guy and then like you can't get his song stuck out of your head.

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I feel like he's just obsessed with him and he doesn't want to admit it. He is obsessed,

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but like in a very unhealthy way. Mark would say later, quote, he told us to imagine no

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possessions and there he was with millions of dollars and yachts and farms and country

369
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,880
estates laughing at people like me who had believed in the lies and bought the records

370
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,520
and built a big part of their lives around his music, end quote. Again, like I get how that

371
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,160
can be frustrating. Like if you want to think that, but it also sounds like he's making a lot of

372
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,760
fucking assumptions about John Lennon. Like he's saying that, oh, maybe he's just sitting over there

373
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:32,600
with this fucking caviar in his silver spoon. Like how do you know that he's not like actively

374
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,200
participating and helping these communities that he's talking about? You know, I don't know. Yeah,

375
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:42,040
but I mean, he's he has a mental illness. I mean, that's really what it is. I'm like,

376
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,720
this makes no sense. This makes no sense. Yeah, because he has a mental illness. It's just,

377
00:34:45,720 --> 00:34:50,760
it's just, yeah, it's just harder for me to go there in my mind because, and I always think the

378
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:56,920
best of everybody. But you know, Mark would also say, quote, I would listen to this music and I

379
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,440
would get angry at him for saying in the song God that he didn't believe in God and that he just

380
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,840
believed in him and Yoko and that he didn't believe in the Beatles either. This was just another

381
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:12,680
thing that angered me. Even though this record had been done at least 10 years previously,

382
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,480
I wanted to just scream out loud who does he think he is saying all these things about God and

383
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,760
heaven and the Beatles, saying that he doesn't believe in Jesus and things like that. At that

384
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,040
point, my mind was going to a total blackness of anger and rage. So I brought the Lennon book home

385
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:34,040
into this catcher in the rye milieu where my mindset is hold in Caulfield and anti-phone-ness,

386
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:39,880
end quote. So it was also part of the catcher in the rye that hold in Caulfield is like this

387
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:45,880
anti-phone-y, like he doesn't like fake people. And so again, he's obsessed with that. He's obsessed

388
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:54,760
with God. He's obsessed with hating John Lennon. I feel like the biggest fucking like Gen Z right

389
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,320
now, even though I'm not a Gen Z because I think I just remember that did John Lennon like actually

390
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,560
I can't remember if he actually talked about it.

391
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,520
Like this guy actually killed John.

392
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Canada doesn't know who Mark David Chapman is again.

393
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:29,800
My face is so red. Oh my god. Everyone is learning about how ignorant I am about a lot of stuff

394
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:36,040
that goes on in the world because I just rather not know about it. That sounds terrible. But like

395
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:41,000
all of these like big events, like, like Jay Will was telling me the other day, he's like, oh my

396
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,200
god, at the beginning of the H.H. Holmes episode when you, when she said his real name and you're

397
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,960
like, I don't know who that is. I thought it was H.H. Holmes. He was like, Canada, you fucking dumbass.

398
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,640
He said he really liked that episode because it was it was all three like kind of wrapped up. It's

399
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:59,880
like H.H. Holmes and then whoever Herman Webster Mudgeit is and then Jack the Ripper. It was fun.

400
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:05,240
Well, I can't be the only one ever that like forgot that John Lennon maybe died. I don't,

401
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,880
I still live in that because you're not telling me. Maybe died.

402
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,800
Just go on with the fucking story. Let me finish. Because this is the thing. I don't want to like

403
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,440
Google right now because I don't want to ruin it for myself, you know. So don't. Sorry, everyone,

404
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:24,760
but I hope that my silly mind is entertaining and not aggro. There's just, I mean, there's an eight

405
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:30,280
year difference between the two of us, you know. Okay, go. So Mark didn't just want to harm John

406
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:36,120
Lennon. He actually wanted to retaliate against famous people in general. He made a list of

407
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:43,320
celebrities he disliked or had reasons to harm in order to make a statement. On this list were Paul

408
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:53,560
McCartney, David Bowie, Jackie O, Jackie O Nasus, Kennedy's wife, Johnny Carson, Elizabeth Taylor,

409
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:59,800
Ronald Reagan, and George Arioshi, which is a Hawaiian governor at the time. Okay. Probably the

410
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,680
most telling part of Mark's state of mind is that he began to hear his little people again.

411
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:14,200
Ooh. In October 1980, Mark had made up his mind. He traveled to New York and located John Lennon's

412
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:22,920
apartment. No. How did he locate him that easily? Jesus. So John Yoko and Sean Lennon, their five

413
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,960
year old, all lived in a place called the Dakota. Did you hear me mention the Dakota the other day?

414
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,840
Yeah. Isn't that funny that you had said that you left that business card at the Dakota or at

415
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,680
Dakota? And I was like, that's so weird. I'm researching a case where somebody lives at an

416
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,560
apartment complex called the Dakota and very famous rich people lived there. It was like a

417
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,520
place where you could easily, it's like Hollywood Boulevard or some shit. That's true because you

418
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:51,640
know, I could point out like Tony Parker's old house in like George Straits. Yeah. So this is

419
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,960
a really well known area that paparazzi would hang out to catch celebrities going in and out of

420
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,600
their apartments. It was not a secret, plus something like this had never occurred before.

421
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:06,680
So we were, after a day or two of mulling over his plans and realizing that he needed ammunition

422
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,000
for the gun that he had purchased, because at the time I don't think you could fly with a gun.

423
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,880
Either way, he acquired a gun, but he didn't have ammunition. So he drove to Atlanta to a friend's

424
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:22,360
house to get ammunition. Okay. The friend had no idea of Mark's plans, by the way. He decided

425
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:28,920
he would. I'd hope not. Mark decided that he would then go home to Hawaii instead.

426
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:36,360
So he left. After returning home, Mark told his wife, Gloria, of his plan to harm John Lennon

427
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,560
and how close he came to harming him. He relinquished his gun and the ammunition to Gloria.

428
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:47,800
And although Gloria was grateful to Mark for telling her, no police or mental health facilities

429
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:54,040
were notified by Gloria of Mark's plan and his clear need for help. She's like, yeah, that's like,

430
00:39:54,040 --> 00:40:01,400
don't do that. Oh, I'm so glad you're home, honey. Bad. So glad you didn't kill a celebrity today.

431
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:07,720
Anyway, she did encourage him, however, to reach out to be evaluated. And Mark did set an appointment

432
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:13,320
for evaluation for the following week. Okay, that's a long time. A meeting that Mark would never attend.

433
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:20,280
Of course not. On December 6th, 1980, Mark flew back to New York with the intention of throwing

434
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,960
himself off the Statue of Liberty. What? Yeah, he was just like, I'm gonna throw myself off the

435
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,800
because he used to be able to go all the way to the top. Would you really? Yeah. In the crown.

436
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,560
No fucking way. Yeah, I don't know how you would get around it. I'm pretty sure they had pretty high

437
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,840
fences. But yeah, seriously, I'm pretty sure that I was like, is he standing at the top?

438
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,640
That'd be insane because that's like, I don't know how tall that bitch is. Well, wouldn't you

439
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,760
land in water if you jumped off of it though? No, it's on an island. Yeah, you'd, yeah. God,

440
00:40:52,760 --> 00:41:00,120
I really don't, I'm making myself look stupid. You saw the island. Didn't. New York. I was just

441
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:07,000
gonna say, we saw her. Seemed it. Yeah, but the island looks real tiny from like far away from the

442
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,840
top of the Empire State Building. Yeah. That's Ellis Island, right? No. That it's on? Yes, it is. No.

443
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:19,960
No. That the Statue of Liberty is on? I swear it is. I don't know, school me. The statue is

444
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,280
located on Liberty Island, a short ferry ride from America's most famous immigration center, Ellis

445
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,480
Island. So I was really close. It's not on Ellis Island, but it's close to Ellis Island. Yeah,

446
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:35,960
it's close in the scheme of the country. It says a short ferry. Okay, a short ferry boat. You get

447
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:42,840
that. Give me that one, please. He would not go through with this plan and in fact ran into James

448
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:48,840
Taylor. Oh, do you know who James Taylor is? I know the name. Okay, ran into James Taylor on a

449
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,440
subway the following day. He grabbed James Taylor, throwing him up against a wall and began to

450
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,640
stumble through a tale of him meeting up with John Lennon to discuss his music career.

451
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,440
Okay, also- Because like I'm gonna meet John Lennon and I'm gonna talk about like guitars and

452
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,160
stuff. I guarantee you in his mind, he's like, oh, divine intervention. God put this celebrity right

453
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,560
in front of me so I can do harm. Yes, who is connected to like Lennon somehow. Jesus.

454
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:19,080
Taylor said about the instance, quote, the guy had sort of pinned me up against a wall and was

455
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:27,640
glistening with maniacal sweat. Oh my God. And talking some freak speak about how he was gonna

456
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:34,920
do all this stuff, how John was interested and he was gonna get in touch with John Lennon and quote.

457
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:40,120
I'm so sorry. Freak speak. It's terrible. Glistening with maniacal sweat.

458
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,960
Yes, he's a fucking songwriter. Of course he is. You don't know who James Taylor is. I know the name.

459
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:53,320
It's okay. I'm gonna make one of you. I'm sorry. I feel like super embarrassed. This is why I have

460
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:59,400
like the mental illnesses that I have because my whole life I have felt dumb because I've been the

461
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:04,280
youngest. No, no, it's something like that. Honestly, I feel like this is one of the only cases we've

462
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:10,760
done that is so like entrenched in pop culture for the time. So it makes sense. And you know,

463
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,080
I don't watch like movies or fucking tea. I'm not woke on shit like that. Yeah, pop culture. I'm

464
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:22,680
just really not. I promise I'm more glistening with maniacal sweat. That is I'll never forget that.

465
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:30,680
That's a hell of a fucking phrase. Freak speak. The next day on December 8th, Mark left his New

466
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:36,760
York hotel room, leaving almost all of his possessions behind. The only thing that he took with him was

467
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:42,520
John's latest record, double fantasy, a copy of The Catcher in the Rye, in which he wrote quote,

468
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:50,840
this is my statement and signed it Holden Caulfield and a 38 caliber handgun. Jesus. He's also buying

469
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,600
like John Lennon's like music and stuff like contributing to his wealth and then bitching

470
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:59,160
about the fact that he's like rich and well, it's all wrapped up in this, you know, like he's still

471
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:06,200
a fan kind of a thing. Yeah. Also, yeah. By early afternoon, Mark was outside of John Lennon's apartment,

472
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:11,720
which he shared with his wife, Yoko and their five year old son, Sean. Sean Lennon is fucking

473
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:21,800
Bay. I think he's Bay. Is it spelled like Sean or is it like scene? Scene. You're probably like,

474
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:29,080
yeah, you would. This makes so much sense. Not your type. Hey, at least we know when they're

475
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,600
still each other's men. It's true. Mark was chatting with other fans that had kind of gathered to

476
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:39,720
take photos around the famous Dakota apartments when he missed John and Yoko walking from a cab

477
00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:45,640
into their apartment. Hanging around for the couple to appear again, Mark would spot John's

478
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,440
housekeeper walking five year old Sean Lennon home after the two were out for the day.

479
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:56,520
Mark took the opportunity to introduce himself, bending down to shake the young man's hand,

480
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:01,560
calling him beautiful boy, which was in reference to John and Yoko's song, Beautiful Boy,

481
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:09,960
which was written for their son, Sean. If you read the lyrics, I bawled my eyes out listening

482
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:15,960
to those lyrics. It is all about like, daddy's always going to protect you, daddy's always going

483
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:23,000
to be home. I'll always kiss you goodnight every night. It's just really fucking sad.

484
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,640
Break my heart into like a thousand pieces. The housekeeper and Sean went inside the apartment.

485
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:32,280
He did not harm Sean, but it's still fucking creepy. That's terrifying. Imagine knowing that as

486
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:38,360
Sean later on. Yeah. I mean, I know he does, but. Around 5 p.m. John and Yoko headed downstairs to

487
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:44,120
hop into a limo that was headed for a recording studio. Mark approached the couple and asked John

488
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:49,960
to sign the album that he brought with him. Mark said, he was very kind to me, ironically, very

489
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:56,360
kind and very patient with me. The limousine was waiting and he took his time with me. He got a pen

490
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,800
going and signed my album. He asked if I needed anything else and I said, no, no, sir. And he

491
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:10,680
walked away. Very cordial and decent man, end quote. Okay. I hate that. At this very time,

492
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:15,480
a photo was actually snapped of the two standing next to each other by a local photographer.

493
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:23,160
Have you seen the picture? You want to see it? That's really eerie. It's like

494
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:31,880
BTK and fucking, what's her name? First lady Rosenberg, whatever. Yes, Rosenberg.

495
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:39,640
It's Rosenberg. Oh, I've seen that photo. Yeah. So that's Mark David Chapman and that's John Lennon

496
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:46,280
as he's signing the album. God, that's fucking disgusting. And then like, just like mere hours.

497
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,920
And then like, he knows like what he's planning on doing. And he's like, he was there with that

498
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:56,760
intention. The couple got into the limousine as Mark Chapman waited on the sidewalk. He would wait

499
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:04,280
almost six hours. And at 1050, John and Yoko arrived back at the Dakota. The couple got out of the

500
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,480
limo and began to make their way up to the entrance of the building, passing Mark on their way by.

501
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,480
I bet he was like, what the fuck are you still doing here? Like in his mind? Probably.

502
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:20,760
Mark produced a 38 pistol and began firing towards John. John was struck four times in the back.

503
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:27,000
One bullet struck John in the neck, severing his aorta. Oh my gosh.

504
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:33,160
Mark was immediately disarmed by the doorman of the Dakota and a bystander quickly began to

505
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:38,200
tend to John's injuries. Another bystander yelled at Mark, do you know what you just did?

506
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:45,480
To which Mark replied, I just shot John Lennon. Oh, I don't like that. I didn't even like saying it.

507
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:56,520
Mark Conley stayed at the scene, pulled out a copy of The Catcher in the Rye and began to read it.

508
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:02,040
Oh my god. Fuck you. How fucking poetic, right? Police arrived at the scene first and quickly

509
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:07,960
determined that John was in critical condition. So without hesitation, they placed him into a

510
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,000
squad car and rushed him to the nearest hospital. Oh my god. He would succumb to his injuries just

511
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:19,400
25 minutes after the shooting. Oh my god, that's awful. He was only 40. Jesus. And his son was

512
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:23,880
like right inside. Right inside. And his wife was right next to him. And Yoko was there. Yeah.

513
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,960
She never left his side either. Oh, that just gave me the heaps.

514
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,680
Mark Chapman was taken into custody without incident. He would tell police officers,

515
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,920
quote, the big part of me is Holden Caulfield. The small part of me must be the devil.

516
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:44,680
Fuck you. That's not take that's literally him not taking accountability for what he

517
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:50,200
fucking did. Mark Chapman did. Oh, it wasn't me. It was Patricia. Patricia.

518
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,640
It like that's exactly what he's doing by saying that and it must be the devil. The devil made

519
00:48:55,640 --> 00:49:00,520
me do it. Fuck you. I'm sorry. I know he's like severely mentally ill, but that like makes me bad.

520
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:06,280
He is severely mentally ill. Chapman was charged with second degree murder. Not really sure why

521
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:12,280
not first although at this time premeditation was not grounds for first degree murder. Okay,

522
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:17,560
that makes sense. He clearly wanted to commit this crime, right? They probably thought it was an

523
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:24,040
impulsive act. Well, yeah. Chapman was evaluated by 12 different psychologists, some for each

524
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:29,480
defense and prosecution and some for the courts. It was determined that most agreed that he had a

525
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,960
psychosis and that he was on the schizophrenic spectrum, but at this time they called it paranoid

526
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:39,480
schizophrenia. Yeah. They also determined that his condition was worsened by the president president.

527
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:47,080
Probably the president. Probably. They also determined that his condition was worsened by

528
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:54,040
the presence of various personality disorders. So it was comorbidity. Wow. Well, yeah, the grandiose

529
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:59,320
narcissistic is what I was thinking earlier. Damn, I'm good. The defense suggested that Mark

530
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:05,240
plead not guilty by reason of insanity, which Mark denied their requests and he did plead guilty.

531
00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:10,120
Of course he did. He said that it was God's will for him to commit this crime and that he didn't

532
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:19,400
want to be considered crazy. Okay. How do you feel about that? I feel that his defense attorney should

533
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:26,200
have said, listen, buddy, you need to do this plea. Don't give him a choice to plead one way or the

534
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:33,480
other because if he is legitimately criminally insane, then he doesn't know what it means to

535
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:41,800
plead guilty and take the charge for that. I agree. I absolutely agree. Chapman would again be found

536
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:47,640
guilty after his plea. He was sentenced to 20 years to life and ordered to go through a psychiatric

537
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:54,200
treatment while in prison. Wow. Chapman was housed at Attica and refused to eat for 26 days after

538
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:59,480
his incarceration began. Oh my gosh, it's dangerous as fuck. He did agree after a while to consume

539
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:05,400
liquid forms of nutrients. Yeah. So, dude's like fucking getting smoothies and shit.

540
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:12,120
At what point do you like force feed someone? I don't know because like, do you just like,

541
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:18,200
how do you sedate them? You sedate them and then feed them? Like us. Put a feeding tube in? No,

542
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,800
because then they can harm themselves like that, you know? They can give themselves infections.

543
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:27,800
I don't know. He was almost always in solitary confinement because staff was concerned that

544
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:33,400
in Gen Pop he would probably be at risk of being harmed. Yeah. A bunch of fucking John Lennon fans

545
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,720
up in that bitch. Fuck yeah. A bunch of fucking Beatles fans. Don't you know every person in prison

546
00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:42,760
as a John Lennon fan? He worked in the kitchen sometimes and he also worked as a legal clerk.

547
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,040
His first parole hearing was in 2000 when he stated that if he worked to be out,

548
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,440
he would immediately look for work and go from church to church telling his testimony

549
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:59,000
in order to lead people to Christ. Until he relapsed on his mental disorder and decided to kill

550
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:06,600
Paul McCartney or something. Yeah, absolutely. I'm surprised he didn't, not surprised, but

551
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,760
it's interesting to me that he didn't try to shoot the wife as well, but then again,

552
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,600
I don't think he really cared about witnesses or anything like that. His main target was

553
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,840
Lennon. That's all he cared about. I'm surprised she wasn't struck at all by accident. Yeah.

554
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:25,640
Because he was clearly standing behind her. Yeah. In May 2012 Chapman was moved from Attica to,

555
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:31,560
I guess it's Wade, correctional facility. Gloria would often visit her husband and stayed by him

556
00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:37,880
even after his sentencing and they were actually approved for conjugal visits in 2014. Ew. The

557
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:43,320
couple get 44 hours alone together every conjugal visit. That's a long fucking time. So they stay

558
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:48,440
in like this little prison makeshift like apartment where like they can still be monitored kind of.

559
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:55,560
That's wild. Yeah, isn't that? That that was allowed. Still allowed. Chapman has been interviewed

560
00:52:55,560 --> 00:53:00,040
multiple times throughout the years. He's actually been interviewed by the likes of Larry King and

561
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:09,000
Barbara Walters. Bambua. Bambua. Bambua. Bambuotas. Bambuotas. I'm Bambuotas. Oh my god. Bambuotas.

562
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:15,160
What do we hit into Gwinniewin? Chapman says about the murder of John Lennon, quote,

563
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:20,520
it wasn't all totally cold-blooded, but most of it was. I did try to tell myself to leave.

564
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:26,120
I've got the album, take it home, show my wife, everything will be fine. But I was so compelled

565
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,880
to commit that murder that nothing would have dragged me away from that building, end quote.

566
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,680
Chapman spoke to a parole board once about Lennon's murder, calling it quote,

567
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:40,520
my big answer to everything. I wasn't going to be a nobody anymore. I'm not going to blame

568
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:45,480
anything else or anybody else for bringing me there. I knew what I was doing and I knew that it

569
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:51,080
was evil. I knew it was wrong, but I wanted the fame so much that I was willing to give anything

570
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:56,520
and everything to take a human life. This was evil in my heart. I wanted to be somebody and

571
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:03,320
nobody was going to stop that, end quote. I don't know if I buy the whole, I thought about leaving.

572
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:09,720
You stood there for six hours after meeting the guy and still did it. That way you had six,

573
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:14,200
if anything, you had way longer than that to change your mind. But when it comes down to it,

574
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:20,520
you had six fucking hours by yourself standing outside his house to turn around and you didn't.

575
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,280
I don't buy that. I was just going to bring the element home to my wife and then call it a day.

576
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,560
And then her do nothing. He says that he also resents Gloria for not saying anything when she

577
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:33,640
had the opportunity. That is not her fucking fault and that is so rude of him to say that.

578
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,960
It's not her fault. I mean, we did talk about the fact that schizophrenia spectrum,

579
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,760
somebody might not know that they have it. You're completely right and I agree

580
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:46,040
that she should have said something. I don't agree with him saying, I feel like that's a cop

581
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:50,040
out. It's a good, it's not taking accountability. Yeah, that's her fault. Well, she didn't fucking,

582
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:54,200
it's like a, it's like Samuel Little, well, the police department fucking sucks. That's why I

583
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,160
kept killing because you know, if they're not going to catch me, I'm just going to keep doing it

584
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:02,680
their fault for not catching me sooner. Like no, it's not your fucking fault for killing 93 people.

585
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:08,520
Yeah. In 2022, Chapman was moved to the Green Haven Correctional Facility.

586
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:15,640
Chapman has been denied parole 12 times. Oh my God. And his next hearing will be in 10 months.

587
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:25,880
What? February 2024. He's still alive? Yikes on bikes. And he has gone to every single parole

588
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:30,120
hearing he wants to be heard every time. I don't know if they're going to release him.

589
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,680
That's 12 times. This will be 13. Has he had psychiatric help this whole time he's been

590
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:42,760
incarcerated? Yes. That's part of his condition. He's like, look, I'm better. Yeah. I think him

591
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:47,240
saying like all these things like I knew it was evil. It was my answer to everything. All these

592
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:53,400
things that he said is him trying to take accountability for his actions. However, he

593
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,480
hasn't been really interviewed since blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

594
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:04,280
And I think it was 92 or something. Other than that, it's just been parole hearings where he has

595
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,200
essentially tried to again, like I said, take accountability for his actions. Yeah. But that

596
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:16,280
doesn't mean that like there's, let me say this, there's no way in fuck he would be able to live

597
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,040
a normal life. That's exactly what I was going to say. I think if he got released, he would be

598
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:25,560
killed by the people. He killed John Lennon. Yeah. I think that I seriously think he would,

599
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,680
someone else would, would try to be vigilante and probably harm him. He would have to go into like

600
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:35,160
witness, not witness protection, but protective custody of some kind. It's just, it'll never

601
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:39,320
happen. Yeah. It'll never happen, especially because part of it is that he is getting the help

602
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:44,920
he requires right now. And I don't think a jury would, when they do parole hearings, is it a jury

603
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:49,720
or is it just a judge? It's like a, it's like a parole hearing, like a panel of people, I think,

604
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:54,920
in victim statements and things. In certain cases like this, I think that the people that would

605
00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:00,120
determine whether or not he is out, like would think that they are taking too much of a risk

606
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,800
letting him out. Because I feel like they would fear that he again, he would be targeted being out.

607
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:11,320
Wow. What I feel, I feel ignorant. I feel educated. Okay, good. But I don't know, like,

608
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,680
here's the thing, like I learn things and then I forget them. Like there is no way that at one

609
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:21,960
point in my life, I didn't know that John Lennon fucking died. But like, I did, I have such a bad

610
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:28,120
memory and I don't know if it's like me, like subconsciously, like not needing to remember

611
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:32,040
things like that or not caring to remember things like that. I don't know. But I didn't,

612
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:36,360
it really didn't even dawn on me until you said John Lennon's name like four times that this was

613
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,800
that case. I was like, wait a minute. Wait a second. Did John Lennon die? Like I was thinking

614
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,040
in my head the whole time I was like, did John Lennon die? God, that's really crazy though. Yeah,

615
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:50,200
I think Paul McCartney is still alive and I think Ringo is. Yeah. I saw Paul McCartney

616
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:55,880
a couple years ago at ACL when I, I didn't go but I worked. That's cute. I bartended and he played

617
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:01,480
on like the main stage. But yeah, that's a really great, that was a really great case. I didn't

618
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:07,320
know like if I had remembered that John Lennon got killed, I wouldn't have known obviously all about

619
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:12,200
the perpetrator. So thanks for bringing that one. I know that you said that you had been excited

620
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:17,240
about it and you were ready to tell me. So especially talking about the latest episode about

621
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,760
Age of Onset with schizophrenia, it was really interesting to go through this and being like,

622
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:27,400
wow, like there it is. There's something that's linked to that. Yeah. Good. I'm glad that you

623
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:33,000
brought that. That was a really great case. Yeah. Yoko never got remarried. She's never been remarried.

624
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:38,520
And I think Sean's like 47 now. Dang. Well, at least they have each other honestly. I hope you

625
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:43,160
guys enjoyed that case. That was an interesting one. I didn't feel like there was really all that

626
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:47,640
much research. I feel like it was pretty cut and dry, but I was really, you know, just again,

627
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:53,080
just the banter in general is the ways of pleasure. Yeah, of course. And thanks for bearing with me

628
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:58,440
guys. When I don't know everything, I'm not perfect. And I'm also younger than Ka'well. And so she

629
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:03,080
has a lot more knowledge than I do. And I'm sure there was listeners as well that didn't know the

630
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:09,240
whole story just like, of course. So we all learned something together today. Next Monday,

631
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:14,440
I have a mental breakdown coming out and then I have a really interesting case. Really? Thursday.

632
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:19,960
And it's going to be something unlike anything we've ever done. And I always try to do that. I try

633
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:25,320
to pull from different, you know, genres and different, you know, MOs and stuff because I

634
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:30,040
always want to keep you guys on your toes. But something very, very interesting is coming y'all's

635
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,440
away. Well, every brain is different. Every individual is different. So, you know, exactly.

636
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:39,240
Yeah. I mean, every case is different either way, even if we have the same MO. Right. But yeah,

637
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:43,720
in the meantime, while you're waiting for that mental break, you guys can follow us on any social

638
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:48,040
media. Make sure to get your tickets for the True Crime Paranormal Podcast Festival. With our code,

639
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:54,600
you get 15% off and that is D-A-K-P-O-D, just as a reminder. Yeah. Check out diagnosingkiller.com.

640
00:59:54,600 --> 01:00:01,000
Check out our red bubble. There should be a link to our merch and our red bubble site through our

641
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:06,040
website. Thanks for looking at it. I worked really hard on it. Yeah. And keep reviewing us, guys.

642
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:10,840
I want to see some more reviews coming through. I feel like we only have like 18, but we have like

643
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:16,120
1200 followers on Insta. So give us a review. And that's just on Apple Podcast. We probably have

644
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:20,920
more reviews than that. But I know a lot of people listen to us on Spotify. But yeah, thank you guys

645
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:25,800
for sticking with us for another episode and we will see you on Monday. Yep. Love you. Bye.

646
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:37,000
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