Hello.
That was so off-key.
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
I was gonna say welcome back to another Diagnosing a Killer.
I guess it makes sense.
My name is Kenna.
I'm Koelle.
And I'm real funny right now because we just finished recording another episode.
So I'm already like all fucking ready to go.
Just hyped.
Ugh.
I'm so excited for you to hear this episode and know who I'm doing and get it all out there.
You're excited.
It's a good one.
Yeah.
It's, I mean it's a horrible one.
But it's a good one.
Before we get into that quickly just want to get some info out there.
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So just to let everyone know about that again, just pepper that in there.
Just peppering that in.
And yeah, other than that, do you have anything else before we start?
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Once again, once the website is up and running, we will definitely let you all know.
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You will know.
Yeah, absolutely.
And anytime between now and then when the website does launch, you can actually use that code now.
It is D-A-K-P-O-D for 15% off of those tickets.
And I sound like I am hosting a radio show.
That's true.
Content warning, this episode contains depictions of drug and alcohol abuse, child abuse, suicide, child trafficking, and the victimization of mentally ill and elderly individuals.
If these are sensitive subjects for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.
Remember, you are not alone and we love you.
And we will see you next time.
Love you.
Bye.
Okay, we are going to get into this case because I cannot hold it in any longer.
I think I researched this like two weeks ago.
I've been wanting to tell you ever since.
So, no.
I'm just a strong start.
I'm sure y'all didn't hear that, but one of our cats just meowed really loud at the door.
But we heard it.
This has been a very well-known case in the last couple of months or maybe like year because it was featured on an episode of Worst Roommate Ever.
Today, we are going to be talking about Dorothea Helen Puente, a.k.a.
Time to nickname the Death House Landlady.
The Death House Landlady?
Yeah, the Death House Landlady.
Do you not know this story?
No.
Oh my God, you're in for a horrible treat.
Okay.
If that can even be considered a treat.
I thought it was going to be the guy, the guy that was like on that two-parter one because I saw that episode.
I'm sure I saw it.
I just don't remember.
Oh, and he would like move with like other people's animals because he would like keep their animals because he would get them kicked out or whatever.
Oh my God, I don't remember that one.
Maybe I saw it, but I don't remember.
And he would like go around looking for roommates to live with, squat with, and essentially was protected by Squatters rights.
Oh, I think I might have heard that one.
We'll have to do that one.
That one's creepy.
Yeah, no, this has been a really talked about case lately, especially because of that did come out lately.
And I mean, it probably came out like within the last year or two, but there's been a lot of talk about it since like 2021, especially like on the articles I found and stuff like they're really recent.
Interesting.
Well, I'm excited.
We're going to get into this.
Okay.
Dorothea Helen Gray was born on January 9th, 1929 in Redlands, California to Trudy Mae Yates and Jesse James Gray.
Jesse James.
I read that she was the sixth of seven children, but I could only find the four children's names online.
Okay.
So I'll just put those in there.
In no specific order, there is James, J A M E glow gray born in 1918.
Jesse Wilma Gray born in 1920.
Sylvia Geraldine Gray in 1921 and Jesse Everett Gray in 1923.
Okay, cute name.
So it's four of her siblings.
Yes.
Some sources stated that her father worked as a cotton picker and other sources stated that both of her parents picked cotton for money growing up while they were growing up.
Although they had many children to provide for, unfortunately, the money that Trudy and Jesse would make while working was not used to support the children.
And the children were often left to find food for themselves growing up.
The money the parents were making, however, went to extreme amounts of alcohol for the both of them.
Oh my God.
They were noted as being intoxicated most all of the time.
Oh, that's awful.
The parents were also extremely abusive to all of the children.
And it was actually noted that Jesse, the father, would frequently threaten to commit suicide in front of them and even sometimes would hold a gun to his own head to heighten the threat.
What?
Like literally saying, I'm going to kill myself with this gun right here in front of you.
In front of the kids?
Yes.
Who?
Oh, that was Susan Smith. Yeah, I forgot about that.
Yeah, and that's why when you did Susan Smith, I said that the person that I was researching at the time was very similar childhood growing up because didn't her dad do something like that?
Yeah, her dad had said multiple times that he would kill himself and his wife in front of the children.
Say it in front of the children.
That is in front of the children, but that's abuse.
Oh, I mean, at its height.
The children are very young at this point. They probably can't even comprehend the weight of what that means.
Right.
Yeah, they just know that it's scary and there's a lot of tension and screaming.
Yes, exactly. That's emotional, mental abuse. That is just awful.
So awful.
Dorothea and the other children were forced to fend for themselves for many years without any help from their parents.
And in 1937, when Dorothea was just eight years old, her father, Jesse, would ultimately die of tuberculosis.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Anyway, I'm not really that really else to say about it.
So Trudy would actually lose custody of the children next year.
It wasn't really explained why, but either the family got a lot of attention because of the father's death or there was no income that she really couldn't afford to take care of them.
Yeah, I mean, well, not only in the alcoholism, but the fact that, yeah, like you said, she probably can't feed them.
Yeah, definitely.
So the same year that she would lose custody of the children in 1938, Trudy would actually ultimately die in a motorcycle accident.
Then the same year, just days after Christmas.
What?
Yeah, so this...
Both parents within however many years.
A year and a half.
Oh my gosh.
With both parents being gone, the children were all sent to an orphanage.
During the time that Dorothea was in the orphanage, unfortunately, she was reportedly sexually abused by the elders in the facility.
It was stated in some sources that she was eventually picked up by relatives and taken to Fresno, California to live with them until she was 16.
She ends up in Olympia, Washington after this, where she found herself living in a motel and actually engaging in sex work to make a living.
And she's 16?
At 16.
During this time, Dorothea was noted as telling people that she would interact with, that she was actually 30 and not 16 as she was.
That's a leap.
I don't know, she's had a rough life.
People believed her.
Wow.
And it's the fucking 40s.
Yeah, show me some ID.
Yeah.
It's also known that around this time, Dorothea began forging checks in order to steal things such as food, clothing, etc.
And she would get caught while doing so.
It is said that she was sentenced to one year jail time for this offense, but she would only spend six months before being let out on good behavior.
I mean, she's a fucking child.
And she's a child, yeah.
After being released, Dorothea would meet 22 year old World War II veteran Fred McFall and the two began dating.
The two quickly became married in-
Oh no!
We always wait for it.
So they would get married in 1946 when Dorothea was only 17 and he was 22.
However, she listed on the marriage certificate that she was 30 years old and she actually put her name on the marriage certificate as Sheriol A. Riscoll.
So it's a completely different name.
Completely different name.
Well, she was already used to forging checks at this point, so maybe that's something that she was going with.
Yeah.
At the time, an alias.
Her husband, Fred, was later noted as saying about this quote,
she could pass for anyone she wanted to be by the way she acted. Riscoll, that was the name she made up, I think. I don't know where she'd come up with this shit out of a clear blue sky.
So he was like, she was bullshit.
This was later on.
He married her.
Okay.
Although Fred said these things about Dorothea later on, the two actually enjoyed their marriage at the beginning, even welcoming two daughters between 1946 and 1948.
Having children did not seem to be the highlight of their marriage, however, and they would end up putting one of their daughters up for adoption and would send the other one to live with relatives in Sacramento.
So just the full on cycle repeats itself.
It was seemingly that Dorothea didn't want children.
And I understand it's the 1940s and not everybody's using contraceptives and all that sort of stuff, but I mean, come on.
Around this time as well, Dorothea had said that she had also suffered a miscarriage and this seemingly sparked a fury inside of her.
That's interesting because she had already had to, after she gave the kiddos away?
It wasn't very clear.
Oh, I see. But it's just compounded, right?
Yes.
Not only that, but you see it sometimes in Susan Smith, I think you've seen it in Andrea Yates, that postpartum depression is a very real thing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Even when you go through a miscarriage, you go through that hormonal change again.
And so it might just be that because he said she had the kiddos what, 46, 47 or 47, 48?
Two years in between.
Right. And then also suffering a miscarriage within that time.
Yeah, so a lot.
That is a lot of hormones going up and down like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Continuing to forge checks to get by, Dorothea was arrested in 1948 in Riverside and was sent to jail again for this crime.
Due to this arrest, Fred would file for divorce from Dorothea.
Dorothea would plead guilty to two counts of forgery and she was sentenced to four years in jail.
After only four months, she would be released from jail and placed on probation that would last an additional three years.
Okay, I was going to say that's being released after four months when it's like clearly a secondary offense of the same crime.
So that's a little goofy, but three years probation that makes a little bit more sense.
So it's not just like scot-free, essentially.
Yeah.
Well, one of the terms of her probation was that she was not allowed to leave Riverside as we see commonly.
Well, six months into her probation, she just decided to leave anyway.
So I'm just going to go. See ya. Smell ya later.
Dorothea would flee the area leaving Riverside for good.
It says in one source that shortly after her release, she would become pregnant by a man that she did not know very well and she would give this child up for adoption.
It's not clear whether or not this is why she left Riverside, but she would not continue a relationship with this man.
Okay.
Again, that was just one source. I can't confirm if that's actually true, but that's what one source said.
But again, here we are again with that potential postpartum depression kind of a thing, right?
Exactly.
A few years later in 1952, Dorothea would meet a Swedish man by the name of Axel Bren Johansson in San Francisco.
I love me a sweet.
At this time, she had been known by a much different persona than her upbringing.
She was now going by the name, bear with me, Teya Singawala Nayarda,
and would refer to herself as a Muslim woman of Egyptian and Israeli descent.
Wow.
Completely different persona.
Oh my gosh.
Axel and Teya would marry the same year and actually spend the next 14 years in a very tumultuous marriage with notable violence and criminal activity around every corner.
14 years.
Wow. It didn't know she had it in her.
Yeah.
During the time of their marriage, Dorothea would frequently get in trouble with the law due to drinking or gambling illegally.
This would of course spark debates and fights between the couple.
Axel was also a merchant seaman, so he was gonna stop.
They're gonna make me laugh about semen.
It's not funny.
He was gone for work many times throughout the year.
He was on a boat.
He was a guy that worked on a boat.
Dorothea would take advantage of the time he was gone by inviting multiple men to the house and gambling away his money.
Oh no.
Yeah.
Despite all of these fights, like I said, Dorothea and Axel remained married for many years and in 1960, Dorothea would find herself in even bigger trouble with the law.
During this time, Dorothea had owned a bookkeeping firm that seemed to be doing very well.
Okay.
However, this bookkeeping firm was actually a front for something much more sinister.
A brothel.
A brothel?
Yes.
Okay.
And I mean sinister.
That's not a bad.
It's a bookkeeping.
How do you brothel in a bookkeeping firm?
Yeah.
It was a hidden door in the back of us.
Well, I mean, you know, everybody's heard of massage places, right?
I mean, that can be a front.
Well, that's obvious.
You gotta go with bookkeeping.
Yeah.
I'm gonna open up a library, but it's gonna be a brothel.
It's quiet.
Too quiet.
Actual librarians to tell you to be quiet.
That sucks.
Shh.
Sorry, fuck.
No pun intended, fuck.
In 1960, Dorothea was found out by law enforcement and was arrested in Sacramento.
So she was found out about owning this illegal brothel.
She was found guilty and sentenced to 90 days in jail.
90 days?
Yeah.
One source stated that after she was released, she was arrested yet again on a vagrancy charge
and would serve 90 days for this as well, which I didn't know you could be arrested for that.
For vagrancy?
Yeah.
I didn't know you could be arrested for that.
I think in certain areas, like you can't loiter and stuff like that.
That makes sense.
That doesn't make sense.
That doesn't make sense, but yeah, I can see how that makes sense.
Yeah.
Now, despite all of this, Dorothea and Axel remained married and another year went by.
What is he just like comfortable?
I guess he's not there all the time, right?
He's not, yeah.
So it's probably downplaying it.
In 1961, Dorothea continued her antics of drinking, lying, criminal behavior, and at this point,
even multiple suicide attempts.
Well, I mean, sorry, but I mean, she's not taking care of herself.
Yes, and it's tumultuous for life in general and this marriage.
Around this time, Dorothea would offer to perform a sex act on an undercover cop during a sting operation of a business
and she would be arrested for this crime.
Did she get three days in jail?
She wouldn't serve any time for this arrest, actually.
Because her husband Axel would actually commit her to DeWitt State Hospital to get evaluated instead.
Okay, so clearly he's trying to be proactive a little bit.
How well did that go?
So during the time that Dorothea was in the hospital, psychiatrists diagnosed her as a pathological liar with an unstable personality.
Again, this is the 60s, so we don't have the terminology we have now.
Some sort of personality disorder would be today, probably.
Dorothea and Axel would ultimately divorce in 1966, although she would continue to use his last name for many years following their separation.
She would change her name yet again and go by Sharon Johansson and also take on a new persona as a devout Christian woman.
Ooh.
Do you think this is a DID?
I don't think so.
I think she's just very manipulative.
And she thinks that changing her whole persona can help her gain whatever she wants in life.
That reminds me of Elizabeth Holmes, the Theronance lady.
The way that she manipulated her body to speak and then she speaks with this really deep voice and then wears a turtleneck at all.
And then she's this different person.
And it's terrifying.
She just had a second child?
No, she didn't.
Yeah, she did. Pretty sure.
Yeah, it's definitely interesting how people can do that.
Yeah.
With the intent to manipulate.
Yes.
Which is interesting.
After this name change and seemingly different morals, Dorothea would establish her reputation as a caregiver.
Okay, I hate this.
Oh yeah.
She would provide young women with a sanctuary from poverty and abuse without charge and would become known as a mother figure in the community.
Wow. A total 180.
Two years later in 1968, Dorothea would meet and marry 21 year old Roberto Jose Puente.
He was 21, she was how old?
She would have been 39 or 40 at this point.
Wow. Total 180.
She would take his name and change hers to Dorothea Helen Puente as we know her now.
While married, Dorothea would take over a three-story, 16 bedroom care home located at 2100 F Street in Sacramento where she would provide care and comfort to the homeless community in the area.
Wow.
This is a... where's the poop?
Oh yeah, just wait.
This marriage would last a total of 16 months and the couple would separate.
Oh wow.
Dorothea citing domestic abuse as the reason.
The divorce would not be finalized until 1973 however as Roberto would actually flee to Mexico after being served with the divorce papers.
It's like I'm fucking out of here.
Even after the divorce was finalized, the two would continue to have a tumultuous relationship and Dorothea would eventually file a restraining order against him in 1975.
What?
So she files for divorce. He ignores the divorce papers but I'm assuming they're still having sex every once in a while and that's why they're hanging out?
Yeah, maybe.
Oh man.
Although their marriage was the shortest of her life, Dorothea would continue to use the surname Puente for more than 20 years.
So this was her new persona.
Following the divorce, Dorothea put all of her focus into the boarding house that she had previously taken over.
Now in her 40s, Dorothea would completely change her appearance.
She had always been known for her really well thought out outfits and over the top makeup and accessories.
Now she was wearing modest, baggy clothing and stopped dying and styling her hair altogether.
Hmm.
It is known at this point that she was changing her look in fact in order to appear much older than she actually was.
What?
To try to gain sympathy from others.
So now it's like, okay, well I'm at this point in my life where I'm no longer getting the attention I require so I must maintain this older appearance to, like, get...
You said get attention, I guess.
The bull is seemingly harmless, maybe?
Yeah, okay.
She told new acquaintances that she was a devouted Christian that loved serving her community and she just had to open up this lovely home in order to help the homeless community.
Wow, she's so nice.
The type of patron she would frequently house were specifically people that were struggling with mental illness and or alcohol and drug abuse.
Okay.
She would even host AA meetings and local social workers started even referring people to her home as they saw her as a reliable and good placement.
I hate all of this right now.
She's just a little angel baby.
She's just a little angel babe.
She couldn't harm anybody even if she wanted to.
On top of her help with AA meetings, she would also assist her guests in applying for social security benefits.
She's so helpful.
Wow, how helpful.
She also get life insurance policies too.
She help out with those?
Maybe.
She would also establish herself as a respected member in Sacramento's Hispanic community funding charities, scholarships and radio programs.
I thought she wasn't Hispanic though.
I thought she was.
Now she is.
It's Wednesday.
Now she is.
In 1976, Dorothea began dating one of her guests by the name of Pedro Montalvo and the two would marry very quickly after meeting.
Oh my gosh.
Stop getting married.
Pedro was known as being an abusive alcoholic and he would leave Dorothea very shortly after being married just about like a week into their marriage.
What?
Yeah.
Dorothea was now single yet again and in need of money as she was being so generous to her community.
Yeah, she's just giving everything that she has is given to the community.
Yep.
It was at this point that she began frequenting local bars in search of older men who were receiving government benefits.
She would become friendly with these men and then forge their signatures in order to steal their money.
She went on doing this for about two years and she would eventually be caught and charged with 34 counts of treasury fraud.
She would spend no jail time.
She was sentenced to five years probation for these crimes.
Was fined $4,000 and was again forced to undergo a psychiatric evaluation.
Why do you always handle these cases where people are like not going to jail when they need to be or like being released early or just driving the point home without this podcast?
That's why.
Because if they fucking stayed in jail none of this would have happened.
Or been evaluated or...
Well, I'm not sure if you heard but I had just said they forced her to undergo a psychiatric evaluation again at this point.
Okay, yeah.
Because it's been how many years since Axl had her take one?
Oh.
30 years?
No, not that long.
Because they were together for 14.
Maybe like five or six, I don't know.
It's been a while.
Five or six years.
You're probably right.
Five or six, yeah.
During this evaluation, the psychiatrist would diagnose Dorothea with schizophrenia but wouldn't require any treatment moving forward.
Of course not.
Diagnosis schizophrenia with no treatment?
No treatment plan.
Oh yeah, you got a broken leg there.
Take care.
Dorothea.
Well, Dorothea was out on probation, she would continue to commit the same type of fraud as she had actually lost her building when she was arrested previously.
Okay.
The 16 room house?
Yes.
The one that she was helping.
Helping the community.
In 1981, Dorothea was able to rent a new apartment at 1426 F Street in downtown Sacramento and began allowing people to live with her again as well.
That's interesting because that's the same street.
Yes, it is the same street.
So she must know that this area is, you know, ripe with elderly fruit or something.
Yeah.
In April of 1982, 53 year old Ruth Monroe would begin living with Dorothea in her new apartment.
Although she was reverting back to her old ways, Dorothea would explain that these were not borders, but friends and relatives of hers that were staying with her.
Okay.
Shortly after moving in with Dorothea, Ruth Monroe would die from an overdose of codeine and acetaminophen.
Wow.
And how old was she?
She was 53.
Okay.
But Ruth was reportedly bedridden and notably depressed at the time of her death as her husband was terminally ill.
So when police arrived at the scene and were told by Dorothea that it may have been an overdose, they believed her and her death was ruled a suicide.
That's what I was going to ask.
Yeah, they thought it was a suicide.
Wow.
So her husband was terminally ill.
She was very notably depressed.
She was ill as well, physically ill.
And Dorothea essentially convinced the police that Ruth caused her own death by this overdose and it was no foul play.
Okay.
Hmm.
Less than a month later, police were back at the apartment after 74-year-old Malcolm McKenzie accused Dorothea of drugging him and then robbing him.
Although she did not get arrested for drugging him, she was arrested for robbing him and was subsequently convicted of three charges of theft on August 18, 1982 and would serve five years in jail for this crime.
Okay.
At least it's getting a little lengthy.
Okay.
He loves her.
The two quickly blossomed their relationship, even quickly making wedding plans.
So she's like what, like 53?
He's like 77?
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, exactly.
Everson would soon move in with Dorothea at the apartment and they would open up a joint bank account that was used to pay the $600 rent at the apartment she had bought for herself.
Okay.
This is again where she was living in before prison.
She was able somehow to keep this property while in prison.
Maybe he was paying for it while she was there.
Yeah.
And he just continued to pay for it when she got out.
She's at the same apartment and how many rooms was the apartment?
I don't know.
It didn't say.
Okay.
Because I mean she clearly had people living with her.
So that's why I was wondering if it's like a few rooms.
Yeah.
Well, I think it was like, it's definitely not an apartment suitable for housing multiple people, which is why she had to lie and say they were like friends and relatives and they weren't actually living there.
Right.
During the same year that he would move in, Everson would seemingly move out of the apartment in 1985 when the tenants just stopped seeing him around the home.
Can I very quickly raised her eyebrows like she's like later that year in November of 1985, Dorothea hired a handyman named Ismael Flores to install some wood paneling in her home.
When the paneling was complete, Dorothea then asked Ismael to build her a box that was six feet by three feet by two feet.
And she explained that she would be using this box to store quote books and other items.
Sure.
Also, can you make it look like a coffin?
Thanks.
Literally.
After he completed the job, Dorothea paid Ismael an $800 bonus and also gifted him with a red 1980 for pickup truck.
No.
Oh my God.
Full body heaves.
When asked how she got this truck, Dorothea told Ismael that the truck belonged to her boyfriend who gave it to her because he moved to LA and he no longer needed it.
Sure.
It is unclear how much time went by, but shortly after this exchange, Dorothea enlisted the help of Ismael yet again, this time in moving this box that she had filled.
But just, you know, like books and knickknacks and stuff.
The box was now filled, sealed, and ready for transport according to Dorothea, and Ismael agreed to help her move it to a storage facility.
In the truck?
That would be hilarious.
I mean, essentially, yeah. Probably.
On the way to the storage facility, Dorothea had a change of heart and actually told Ismael to just stop while they were on the Garden Highway in Sutter County and just go ahead and dump the box into the bank of the Sacramento River.
Just go ahead and put it over there.
I forgot to tell you these books, I no longer need these books, so I'm such a good person that I'm going to put them on the side of the road.
I'm going to dump them.
Yeah, I'm going to dump them, and hopefully someone in need will find these books and be able to utilize them.
Now, this place was not just a regular river, but it was actually an unofficial household dumping site, but still illegal for them to dump in that place regardless.
Yeah, of course.
It's also illegal to, I don't know, dump up bodies somewhere.
So, I don't know, there's a body there yet.
Sure. Yeah, I'm sorry, bugs. Yeah, bugs and other stuff. And others, just, you know, other things.
Ismael became confused and asked Dorothea why she wanted him to dump the box there. I thought they were going to the storage unit.
Right.
She responded by saying the contents of the box were just junk, so it didn't matter.
Ismael agreed, and he dumped the box into the river.
So that was in the beginning of November.
On New Year's Day, 1986, a fisherman spotted the box about three feet from the riverbank and noted that it was suspicious looking since it was in the shape of a coffin.
Just like a purpose.
How do you not smell that? Like, even when you're transporting it? I don't believe people when they're like, oh, I just, I was just helping somebody moving some boxes.
I had no idea what the contents were.
Yeah, exactly.
No, you know.
You know.
I mean, how would you not know?
I don't know.
I think that he just didn't want to ask questions. Maybe he was scared. He's like, shit, I'm next.
That is, you know.
You're essentially lending the idea that at some point in your life, you knew what it was like to just carry a box of random shit that you didn't know the contents of.
Do you know what I'm saying?
No.
Have you ever moved a body in a box before?
No.
Do you think that you would know when you would move a body in a box?
Probably so.
That's all I'm saying.
It's not something that one is used to is what I'm saying.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true.
I mean, I just felt Trish move recently.
You know.
No bodies.
But I'm guarantee if I had picked up a box that would have felt a little weird or lumpy, probably would have given it a peek.
Yeah, that's true.
But you know what?
You never know what people are thinking.
Again, he might have been scared.
He might have really, really trusted her.
You know, she was very manipulative.
Was he?
She's paying him.
He's like, probably like, fuck, I don't, you know.
Was he a neurotypical person?
I don't believe so. I think that it wasn't, it wasn't confirmed.
I think I remember hearing that he might have been either mentally ill or on the neurodivergence spectrum.
Okay, I see.
So this man that sees the box contacts police, of course, who arrive on the scene with detectives.
Once there, law enforcement opened the box and found the badly decomposed body of an elderly man inside.
Hmm.
The body wasn't able to be identified right away and was labeled as a John Doe.
Interesting.
Nobody became suspicious of Dorothea as she was a sweet old lady who was taking care of the mentally ill and homeless communities.
Everson Gilmuth's family had been receiving letters from him during this time as well,
stating that he had not contacted them because he had been sick, but he was doing fine.
No.
Meanwhile, his pension checks continued to be cashed, so there was no reason to believe that he is missing at all.
Oh no.
Dorothea went on with her life as if nothing was wrong and continued to house people,
now charging them room and board.
So instead of letting them live for free, she's now charging rent.
Nobody interviewed Ismael about a box or any of that other stuff?
Okay.
No one saw them go drop it?
No one knew where the box came from?
I see.
Is he okay?
It was at this point that Dorothea's number of tenants rose to more than 40,
in which again, most were either mentally ill or alcohol or drug addicts.
So this must have been a big apartment.
This isn't like a hotel.
How do it been?
How do it been, right?
How many people do you think you could fit in an efficiency apartment studio?
Not a lot.
Although she was making decent money charging for rent, Dorothea wanted more,
and she began hanging out in bars again, looking for new people to scam.
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Also during this time, she would go through all of her tenants' mail before giving it to them,
and any check that was sent would be cashed by her.
She would take a portion of the checks for quote, expenses, and then give the remaining to her tenants.
So she's like a prison guard.
Unfortunately, most of the people that were staying in the housing were not getting the treatment that they needed,
so they would frequently spend what little money she would give them on more drugs and alcohol.
It's just vicious cycle.
And like no medication, no, probably, right?
I mean, if there are all those...
I mean, there's some people that are being referred by social workers,
probably just people that she offered a place to stay that she met on the streets or something.
And clearly not getting like the mental help that they needed either.
Of course not.
And neither is she.
We have to think about that.
There was also multiple occasions that these tenants would be picked up by police and jailed for 30 days
after receiving anonymous tips that they were spending their government money on drugs and alcohol.
Drugs and alcohol.
So then like she...wait.
Anonymous tips.
So she essentially would be calling the cops and saying this person's spending their social security money on drugs and alcohol.
Go arrest them.
When she didn't want to deal with them anymore, I guess.
Or if they ran out of money.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Now one of her parole requirements this time was that she was to stay away from the elderly
and refrain from handling government checks because clearly she has a history of theft and fraud.
It is noted that although parole agents visited Dorothea's apartment at least 15 times around this time,
no violations of her probation were ever reported.
Which would mean what?
Abstaining from drugs and alcohol or...
Abstaining.
She's handling government checks because she's clearly taking it from her tenants.
Right.
And she's supposed to stay away from elderly people in general.
Because elderly people that have social security is who she was targeting.
But they found nothing...they didn't find anybody that matched that description.
Is that what you're telling me?
I don't think they wanted to do the paperwork because they didn't care about the people that were getting taken advantage of.
Yeah.
Because they came to her house 15 times.
There's no way there wasn't at least a single other person in that, you know, apartment that fit that description.
Exactly.
In fact, there was no suspicions about Dorothea or her business at all until she hired a man by the nickname of chief as her new handyman.
Oh, chief. Tell us about chief.
Dorothea would claim that she, quote, adopted him and neighbors would take notice of his odd behavior around the home.
Hmm.
Seemingly because he was probably mentally ill.
Right.
Dorothea would have chief dig in the basement and remove soil and trash with a wheelbarrow, although the basement was covered in a concrete slab.
So where is this soil and trash coming from?
She would tell neighbors, oh, he's digging in the basement, but he's taking all this soil and trash out from somewhere.
Neighbors took note of the contents of the wheelbarrow when it was nearly impossible for the items to have come from the basement.
Chief would later dismantle the garage in the back and replace this ground with a concrete slab as well.
Hmm.
This is just handy work that he's doing.
Yeah, just, you know, just normal handy work.
Soon after this project, the neighbors would no longer see chief around the area.
Dorothea asked Ismael to make her a box.
Oh, God.
In November of 1988, Alvaro or Burt Montoya, a tenant of Dorothea's, failed to show up to a required meeting with his social worker, Judy.
Hmm.
Burt was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was considered to be developmentally disabled.
This is a quote from his social worker.
Hmm.
When he failed to arrive to his meeting, Judy went to Dorothea's home to confront her.
Dorothea told Judy that Burt was perfectly fine and in fact he was just in Mexico visiting his brother.
He's on the side of the road in a box somewhere.
Seriously.
What Dorothea did not know, however, was that Judy knew Burt very well and was aware that he did not have a relationship with his family.
So it was very doubtful that he would be with his brother.
Right.
Ooh, look at the face.
What do you think?
Go, Judy.
Let's go, Judy.
Come on, Judy.
Not wanting to raise suspicions, Judy then spoke secretly to another tenant that was there, John Sharp, who had stated about Dorothea, quote,
something is wrong. She's been digging a lot of holes.
Ooh, buddy.
Ooh.
Now, with reasonable concerns, Judy contacted police about the matter.
Police asked Dorothea if she knew the whereabouts of Burt to which she repeated that he was simply on vacation and she did not know what all the fuss was about.
I don't know what the fuss is about.
John Sharp would actually back up Dorothea on her statement to the police that Burt was indeed out of town and at this moment, police didn't consider her a suspect.
Oh, no.
Because John Sharp is like, bro, he's out of town.
He's out of town, yo.
The police prepared to leave the home, but as they were about to, John Sharp slipped them a piece of paper that read, quote, she's making me lie for her.
No.
I hate it.
It's not clear whether or not police left and came back with the search warrant or if they just asked Dorothea right there if they could come in.
But either way, police would begin a search of the property.
I don't think that they left and came back because of what happens next.
Okay.
Not finding anything inside the home.
Police noticed a syrup soil in the backyard and they asked Dorothea if they could just dig around a little bit.
Yeah, can I just do a little poke around?
Again, I don't think they had the warrant because they had to ask permission to dig.
Dorothea agreed, shrugged, and she said, quote, dig in my yard.
I don't know what's out there.
It's my yard.
Also, what do you mean?
I don't know what's out there.
What if there's nothing out there?
Yeah, I don't know what's out there.
Dorothea was even noted as providing the officers with an additional shovel to help in their search.
The boldness of this bitch.
An officer was noted as saying about this moment, quote,
We were just digging and digging and I could see Dorothea staring out the window at us above.
He then added that they had dug up, quote, pieces of cloth, eggshells, and leather pieces that looked like beef jerky.
This was indeed the opposite of what police were expecting to find, and this was no beef jerky.
Gross.
Police came upon something out of a horror film.
Not one, not two, but seven bodies.
During their time excavating the property.
Just in the backyard?
Yes.
The first victim uncovered was 78-year-old Leona Carpenter.
She had recently been released from the hospital prior to her stay with Dorothea and was still very ill at the time of her arrival.
It was later determined that Leona died of a drug overdose, but when other tenants were interviewed,
they all recalled that Leona would not have been physically able to administer those drugs herself because she was so sick.
This indicated that she was given a fatal dose of medication.
51-year-old Bert Montoya was also found in the yard.
The one that was in Mexico, quote, unquote?
It was determined that his cause of death was very similar to Leona's, a fatal overdose.
64-year-old Dorothea Miller was among the victims found as well.
She was sitting on the porch of the home with her social worker when she was last seen.
She was found with her arms bound to her chest with duct tape.
It is also noted that Dorothea used Dorothea's veteran identification card to obtain a prescription of the drug Dallmaine,
the same drug that would be found in each of the victims' systems.
So it was her prescription that she used to poison everyone else?
Yes.
Wow.
Benjamin Fink, 55, was also found in Dorothea's backyard.
Benjamin was known to eat in communal areas, but other than that, he pretty much kept to himself.
He had developed a number of health issues including pneumonia and mobility problems from a car accident.
This caused him to have to utilize a cane.
Just before he was last seen, Benjamin was disqualified as a plasma donor, which had been a way of making money.
Due to his health problems, Dorothea would confine Benjamin to bed rest and isolate him from the others.
Oh, God, that's awful.
I know.
It was noted one day that Benjamin was heavily intoxicated.
Dorothea told the other tenants that she, quote, was going to take Ben upstairs and make him feel better.
This would be the last time that anybody saw him alive.
God, it just breaks your heart.
He's like innocent, vulnerable people.
And they can't do anything about it.
It's just, it's awful.
And they probably don't even know that they're being manipulated or treated this way or, you know.
A few days after this incident, another tenant complained to Dorothea about a horrific odor coming from a room off of the kitchen.
This same tenant would later explain to police that this odor was the quote, smell of death.
Oh, my God.
I know.
According to the tenant, when approached about the smell, Dorothea brushed it off and said that the sewer had backed up.
Because those things smell the same, right?
Yeah, totally.
Once other tenants noted that Dorothea was no longer taking care of Ben because she had been so taking care of him.
Right.
But he moved back to his family's home in nearby Marysville after she told him, quote, not to ever come back on the property.
Because she, quote, couldn't take his falling down drinking anymore.
She said that she kicked him out.
About it.
When she actually killed him.
She's talking shit about a dead person.
That she killed.
Yes.
No one really questioned Dorothea when she told them this because it was known that other tenants would up and leave without notice.
So it wasn't really odd that Ben seemingly left out of nowhere.
For months after Benjamin's disappearance, however, Dorothea forged his signature on his social security checks and also collected other benefits in his name,
totaling more than $6,000.
Whoa.
Among the bodies discovered in the backyard was also one James Gallop.
In 1987, James was diagnosed with a brain tumor and had to undergo a very serious operation to have it removed.
Following his surgery, James was referred to live with Dorothea where he would recover and receive help from her, or so he thought.
James would become a victim of Dorotheas and his body would be discovered in the yard during the dig,
being able to identify by the metal sutures still in his skull from surgery.
Wow.
Yeah.
64-year-old Vera Faye Martin was also found during the search.
According to investigators, there was something very different about Vera's body discovery compared to the others.
While all the other victims are believed to have been poisoned, suffocated, or strangled,
Vera is the only victim that appeared to have been possibly buried alive.
No.
That's not what I thought you were going to say.
I thought you were going to say like, fludgeoned or shot or stabbed.
Wow.
When discovered, Vera's watch was still ticking on her wrist,
and investigators were called noticing scratch marks that circled around the site of her makeshift grave,
indicated that she may have had the wherewithal to try to get out after being buried.
That's horrific.
My chest hurts.
It's like tight.
I feel like I can't breathe and I think about getting buried.
I wonder if she thought that she passed on and then she just wasn't.
I think that's probably what happened.
Like she thought she had already overdosed.
She's clearly not a physician.
Yeah.
Lastly, 78-year-old Betty Palmer was discovered along with the other bodies.
On August 19th, 1986, Betty left for a doctor's appointment and was never heard from again.
Betty's hands and feet were actually missing when she was discovered,
and Dorothea was later found to have her ID.
However, the ID that was discovered no longer had Betty's photo on it,
and instead had a picture of Dorothea in the place of it.
What? She was going to like assume her identity or something?
Yeah.
It was later revealed that Dorothea was using this ID to cash Betty's social security checks,
taking as much as $7,000 in benefits.
I'm so sorry, but like I heard $6,000 earlier, I hear $7,000 now.
That's like no money for someone's life.
For someone's life.
When she was confronted about the evidence,
Dorothea denied knowing anything about the bodies discovered.
I have no idea, officer.
No.
I'll never go out there.
Seriously.
I've seen all these people living here.
It could have been anybody.
It's like a who done it kind of, right?
Except it was her.
Yeah.
According to one officer, quote,
she was emotionless and she would look straight into my eyes and answer every question.
She never flinched.
She never said anything.
She denied everything.
And now we know about our lying episode that looking straight into your eyes
and directly answering questions isn't a sign of lying.
Yeah.
That's confident.
Yeah.
Or dissociated.
Well, it's supposed to be.
Yeah.
Neighbors would later tell authorities that they had complained for months about the smell coming from her backyard.
One neighbor was noted as saying, quote,
we couldn't stand it.
It definitely was something dead.
It had a sweet, sickly smell.
It's a body farm.
Yeah.
Essentially.
When asked about the smell by anyone,
Dorothea would simply say it was fertilizer.
It's just fertilizer.
It's just shit.
Another neighbor was noted as saying about the Puente House, quote,
if somebody walked on her lawn,
she'd cuss at them in a language that would make a sailor blush.
She's very particular about her lawn.
A taxi driver was also interviewed due to the fact that he frequently picked Dorothea up.
And he was noted as saying that she claimed to have a, quote,
cursed room in her home where, quote,
people died all the time of bleeding ulcers.
It reminds me of the Diane Stouty case.
You know, they had to rush Sarah to the hospital because they didn't want her dying at the house again.
Yeah.
Because, you know, Rachel said, oh, houses are nasty when people die in them.
Oh, yeah.
Remember?
Yeah.
After killing her dad and her brother.
Gosh.
How, how, ugh.
Terrible.
So that's nuts that she would say that to a taxi driver and be like,
oh, I have a dead room or whatever.
Dead room.
One Sacramento social worker was also noted as later saying about Dorothea, quote,
I've done placement with homeless people, helped them get their money and stabilize their lives.
Now I wonder if they would have been better off if they'd stayed homeless.
It was better to stay on the streets than to live with this bitch.
Yeah.
Since there were multiple people living in the home at the time of the discoveries,
Dorothea was not immediately considered the primary suspect.
Police decided to return the following day to continue their investigation.
The next morning, despite officers being at the property,
Dorothea asked if she could just go to a nearby hotel to meet her nephew for a cup of coffee.
I'm just going to be right there.
I'm just going to go right over there and I'm going to be there with my nephew.
And she was wearing this like bright pink get up like this fucking obvious outfit.
Yeah.
Of course she did not go where she said she was going and I don't know why police let her in the first place.
Oh yeah, sure.
We'll catch up at the end just a little bit.
Instead, she fled to LA to evade the police.
Of course.
Well, she was already in California so it wasn't that farfetched.
Almost immediately after arriving in LA, Dorothea was on the hunt for another victim to take advantage of.
Because now she's going to need, you know, plain money to get the fuck out of the US.
She had befriended an elderly male pensioner whom she had met in a bar
and began chatting him up with the intention of making him her next victim.
Unbeknownst to her, the man actually immediately recognized Dorothea as being the woman who was on the run from police.
Oh no.
It was basically on every TV station at the time.
She's just like in the bar and then like right above her head as a TV with her.
Yeah, exactly.
This man would phone police who would locate and arrest Dorothea within five days of her disappearance.
When Sacramento TV station KCRA learned that Dorothea had been picked up in Los Angeles,
they flew down on a private jet to cover the story.
Damn.
Sacramento police as well as KCRA were all very adamant about getting Dorothea back to the city where her crimes were committed.
The police department actually asked KCRA if they could fly back to Sacramento in their private jet with Dorothea.
To which of course KCRA agreed as long as they were allowed to interview her on the flight home.
Yeah. Detectives reluctantly agreed but they would not allow any questions directly having to do with the murders to be asked.
So the interview ended up being short and awkward.
It was like so what do you do in your spare time?
Oh wait, can't talk about that.
Yeah, exactly.
So what do you do for work?
Oh nope, can't talk about that.
Any hobbies?
The most memorable thing about this interview perhaps is the fact that Dorothea was saying that she used to do extensive volunteer work
and was quoted as saying quote, I used to be a very good person at one time.
Win.
Bitch win.
Win. We heard it all, win.
Police would charge Dorothea for nine murders.
Okay.
For the seven bodies being found in the yard.
And additionally, Everson Gilmuth who was found in the box and Ruth Monroe who had overdosed years prior.
Oh okay, even though she was, because it was real suicide I guess they overturned that?
They overturned it.
Did she confess to it?
Well they charged her for this.
Oh I see, I see.
Kevin Climo and Peter Velt in the third, the two defense lawyers in the trial put in a request for a change of venue due to the seriousness of the case
and the judge agreed moving the trial to Monterey County, California.
This is about three and a half hours south of Sacramento.
Throughout the trial the defense tried to paint Dorothea as a sweet grandmother-like type who was willing and able to help anybody that needed it
and was even willing to give up her home to strangers.
And it was the strangers that buried all of those people.
While the prosecution, led by John O'Mara, painted a very different story.
He stated about Dorothea that she was a manipulative criminal who preyed on the weak and lied about her age to seem harmless
while stealing nearly $90,000 from her tenants over the years.
So it would be the equivalent of about $330,000 today, which is, that's a lot.
That is a lot.
But divide that by nine.
That's not a lot for each person.
And however many years she was doing this for.
Doing that, yeah.
I mean, it's not worth someone's life is what your choices are.
No, yeah exactly.
It's definitely not worth somebody's life.
Yeah, I know.
I mean it's not like she was like high rolling either.
Like, you know, what a loser.
You're a loser.
John O'Mara on top of being the prosecuting lawyer was also the homicide supervisor in the Sacramento County District Attorney's office.
While her defense lawyers agreed that she may be a thief, they argued that she was absolutely not a murderer,
bringing into evidence the pathologist report that was unable to determine the cause of death for any of the corpses.
Hmm.
O'Mara, the prosecutor, called over 130 witnesses to the stand to testify against her Thea during her year long trial.
130 witnesses?
For the prosecution.
For a year, wow.
O'Mara agreed that Dorothea had used sleeping pills, putting her tenants to sleep before she suffocated them,
and then hired convicts to dig the holes in her yard.
Jesus, I know.
It's terrible.
Although O'Mara had a lot of witnesses and a lot of evidence that Dorothea was the mastermind behind these deaths,
he would also admit that it was all circumstantial and would refer to the trial as, quote,
the mother of all circumstantial evidence cases.
The prosecution.
So they wouldn't find DNA or hair or anything?
Well, I mean, even if it was, I mean, they were living with her.
So how could you say it was her?
How could you say it wasn't someone else that lived there?
Yeah.
And there's plenty of probably their fingerprints are everywhere, her fingerprints are everywhere.
Yeah.
O'Mara's closing argument would focus on the murder specifically stating, quote,
does anyone become responsible for their conduct in this world?
These people were human beings.
They had a right to live.
They did not have a lot of possessions, no houses, no cars, only their social security checks and their lives.
She took it all.
Death is the only appropriate penalty.
Hell yeah.
She had the death penalty?
Just wait.
Fuck.
The writers were known as saying that Dorothea was one of the most, quote, cold and calculating female killers the country had ever seen.
It was her whole life.
Her whole life.
She was scamming people.
She was scamming people, yeah.
Climo's closing argument consisted of him showing the jury a psychology based photo that can be viewed from multiple different perspectives.
He was noted as saying about this, quote, keep in mind things are not always as they seem.
That's the defense.
Mm-hmm.
Kind of a good point.
But he's wrong because he's defending a murder.
Yeah.
At one point he stated, quote, Dorothea Montalvo Puente stole money.
She had larceny in her heart.
He then looked right at Dorothea and stated, quote, Dorothea Montalvo Puente, you're a thief.
Before turning to the jury and stating, quote, that doesn't make her a killer.
Ooh.
He was trying to be like intense about it.
Yeah.
It sounds intense.
The defense would call in several witnesses as well to show Dorothea's caring side, including one of her long lost daughters.
Yeah, the daughter's going to be like, she's a real fucking peach.
Yeah, she's a peach.
She gave me up for adoption before I was even born.
Seriously.
Peter of Loudon addressed the jury in a loud, confident tone in his closing argument stating, quote, we are here today to determine one thing.
What is the value of Dorothea Puente's life?
That is the question.
Does she have to be killed?
He then spoke softly about Dorothea's traumatic childhood and what she had to go through indicating she had it rough growing up.
He urged the jurors to try to see the world through Dorothea's eyes.
And it sucks because it's really, I mean, that's really unfortunate and it is her life.
Yeah.
She doesn't mean that she needs to get away with murder.
She wasn't given a lot of tools, but instead of, you know, figuring out a way that she could exist in this world in a way that was helpful to people, she decided to victimize them the same way that she was victimized.
Exactly.
Not okay.
No, of course not.
He then continued, quote, you have heard the despair, which was the foundation of her life, the anger and resentment.
If anyone in the jury room tells you it was not that bad, ask them, would you want that to happen to yourself? Would you want that to happen to your children?
I am led to believe if there is any reason for us to be living here on earth, it is to somehow enhance one another's humanity, to love, to touch each other with kindness, to know that you have made just one person breathe easier because you have lived.
I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, that is why these people came to testify for Dorothea Puente.
I think you can only truly understand why so many people testified and asked you to spare Dorothea's life only if you have ever fallen down and stumbled on the road of life and had someone pick you up, give you comfort, give you love, show you the way.
Then you will understand why these people believe Dorothea's life is worth saving.
That is mitigating.
That is human quality that deserves to be preserved.
It is a flame of humanity that has burned inside Dorothea since she was young.
That is the reason to give Dorothea Puente life without the possibility of parole.
Murdering someone is not a stumble.
Yeah.
It's not a stumble, fall, and then recover.
It's an impulsive act.
I made a mistake.
No.
Nine fucking times.
Yeah.
Nine fucking times.
Nine times.
That's not a stumble.
No.
Absolutely not.
The jury would deliberate for over a month and would eventually come back with their verdict.
A month?
They were deadlocked 11 to 1 for a murder conviction on all counts.
No.
This has made me so uncomfortable right now.
I'm not adjusting in my seat.
They would find Dorothea guilty of two first degree murder counts including special circumstances and one second degree murder count.
So due to the special circumstances, that means the death penalty was on the table in the eyes of the jury.
Okay.
Dorothea would not receive the death penalty and six of the nine murders she was charged with would not be put on her record.
She was out the next day walking the streets.
In late 1993, Dorothea was sentenced to two life sentences by Judge Michael Virga to be served consecutively at Central California Women's Facility or CCWF in Chouchilla, California.
Virga would also declare a mistrial on the other six counts of murder, leaving way for her to potentially be given the death penalty for those.
She could be retried for those six.
Okay.
Kathleen Lammer's executive director of the California Law Center on Long Term Care stated about Dorothea's boarding house, quote,
These entities fall through the cracks.
Not everybody running them as being nefarious, but nefarious activity can crop up.
Yeah, this just falls through the cracks and then almost a dozen people fucking die.
No, that doesn't just happen.
Right.
No.
The 15 times that the police were there to do a check on her probation status.
No.
Really?
Yeah.
And there's no record of any of that?
They should be held accountable for that for sure.
After her arrest, Dorothea would meet with William Vickery, a forensic psychologist, frequently.
William stated in an interview that he avoided directly asking Dorothea if she was a murderer because he knew she wouldn't answer him.
He stated, quote, her eyes would fill with tears, but she would never admit it.
It was too humiliating, too shameful for her to admit a responsibility for these crimes.
And it was so counter to her strenuous effort all her life to be somebody who was respected, somebody important.
During another interview in prison, Dorothea was noted as maintaining her innocence, saying, quote,
They don't have all the facts, but God always puts obstacles in people's way.
Oh my God.
Look at Job, John, Paul, Moses.
Things happen for a reason.
I can't stand when people use religion to hide behind.
I can't either.
And I'm sorry, you're telling me that these people were fucking obstacles in your way?
Yeah.
Like what?
Yeah, exactly.
She also commented on her prison sentence when asked if she wished she had gotten the death penalty, stating, quote,
Maybe I would have been better off.
It's the same thing.
I'm here until I die.
However, until the end of her life, Dorothea would maintain her innocence, insisting that her tenants died of natural causes.
That's great.
Then call the fucking mortuary.
Don't bury them in your fucking backyard.
Yeah.
It just like pokes a bunch of holes in your story.
That makes no sense.
They don't have natural causes, so I just buried them.
And I didn't do anything wrong, but I do deserve the death penalty.
Yeah, exactly.
She was noted as saying, quote,
The only time the borders were in good health was when they stayed at my home.
I made them change their clothes every day, take a bath every day, and eat three meals a day.
When they came to me, they were so sick they weren't expected to live.
Bullshit.
No, call bullshit.
Bullshit.
Dorothea Helen Puente died in prison from natural causes on March 27, 2011, at 82 years old.
That's too long.
That is the story of Dorothea Helen Puente.
She lived too long.
Nope, she lived too long.
What a sinister young lady.
Old lady.
She was an old lady.
Like, God.
And to use that, like, I'm old and feeble.
I can't do anything.
Tie this apple, dear.
Yeah, like that kind of thing.
Why is it spicy?
Yeah.
But, okay, so going back to the two psychological evaluations that she had, excuse me, she had
gotten the personality, loose personality disorder diagnosis.
Of course, we know now that it would be different.
And then schizophrenia, which one do you think that she most closely resonates with?
Personality.
I agree.
Personality more.
I mean, I'm sure she had, I just don't see anything really indicative of a schizophrenia
spectrum disorder.
I don't.
There was clearly no paranoia.
If anything, she was brazen.
And like, Applewhite, who had clear signs of paranoia, isolation, things of that nature.
But, she also isolated the people.
But, I feel like more because of control and manipulation.
I don't feel like it was out of fear for herself.
I think that she probably was suffering from personality disorder.
I would say maybe anti-social personality disorder because, like we've said in the past
and like we've talked about with that specific disorder, people with a disorder don't really
care and they don't care that they don't care.
They don't have feelings for anything or anybody.
So, it kind of makes sense if she had that disorder that she would be so dissociated.
When the cops came to check out her yard, she's like, I don't fucking care, go out and look
out there.
I don't know what's out there.
Exactly.
There was no emotion ever, even in prison.
I guess if they gave me the death penalty, then it would be faster.
I'm going to die in here anyways.
What's the point?
That's really anti-social personality disorder.
There's no real connection to human nature or empathy or sympathy, even herself.
Like you said, give me the shovel, I'll help you.
Not really realizing the weight of what you're doing.
I think that's another thing with anti-social, especially when people that do have that disorder
do murder people.
It's like, Kristen Gilbert as well.
Yeah, I don't know fucking 12 people that I killed.
I don't care.
It's really dissociated.
I definitely think that she should have been convicted of all of the murders.
It's unfortunate that six of those nine people didn't get justice, but again, it's apparent
that she was the cause of them, although it's not on record.
I'm surprised there wasn't more of a civil case push by the family members.
If, because these were also some transient people that she was entrusted to take care
of these people.
Even being held liable for their deaths or something.
Right, exactly.
I didn't really look into it that much for the other six, as far as I could tell, none of that ever happened.
Because either way, she was entrusted to take care of them.
Yeah.
And she didn't, clearly.
Yeah, of course.
And she was, I mean, people were referred to her and everything.
One of the biggest things for me that really makes me upset about this case specifically,
but cases like this, it's like you're taking advantage of the most vulnerable population of people.
Like you have to be, like you literally cannot be sane or not mentally ill and do that.
That's not, that's like human nature to want to help people that are in situations like that,
not take advantage of them because they won't notice or they don't know any better or whatever.
God, it's just so awful and all these people were either physically ill or mentally ill or neurodivergent or things like that.
Or elderly.
Yeah, elderly.
Like, God, it just breaks my heart.
And she got away with not being a suspect right in the beginning because she had a good persona that she was,
I don't want to say good, but she put on this persona that she was this innocent old lady.
Had she not like fled and immediately tried to, has she not fled and had she not immediately tried to scam someone else,
she might have gotten away with it.
It might have been able to brush it off as someone else being the perpetrator.
Yeah.
Or it might have taken a lot longer to find her liable.
And especially because she housed people that weren't neurotypical or people that had disorders or just, you know, illnesses,
she probably could have convinced the cops it was somebody else.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, I mean, which is even worse.
No, yeah, it's just awful.
And like, poor Everson, like he was so loyal to her for so many years and he moves in and literally less than a week after he moves in,
she freaking kills him.
She kills him.
God, that's so awful.
Poor guy.
I mean, poor everyone in the story, of course.
And her childhood was, I mean, completely fucking awful.
Her parents were shitheads.
Yeah.
And it was clearly a long cycle of untreated mental illness, alcoholism, you know, drug abuse, things like that, child abuse.
Right, the abuse cycle.
God, it's awful.
This is just a really sad case.
And I knew that, you know, it had come out recently on the episodes I wanted to bring light to it on the podcast.
I think it really fit our theme.
But yeah, that's my case.
Really interesting case.
I could have sworn that you were going to know it.
No, I never heard of it.
Wow.
I was writing this one.
I didn't remember how heavy it was because I, again, I wrote it like a couple of weeks ago and then I was reading it this time.
I was like, oh my God, I like this.
Yeah, but.
Oh my gosh, when the guy has flipped the notes to the column.
I know.
Fools.
Bloody heaps.
Well, thank you guys for joining us for another case.
Do not scam people.
It's not good to scam people.
It's not nice.
It's not nice to scam people.
They take the elderly well.
Make your own money.
Don't scam people for their money that they worked hard for or that they applied for these benefits because they need it.
Yeah, you guys are awesome.
Thank you for all of the love and support again.
And you can shout us out, chat to us on any social media and all that good stuff.
And we will see you next time.
Yeah.
All right.
Love you.
Bye.
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