Hello! Hello!
Welcome to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, I'm Koelle.
And I'm Kenna.
Really excited to be in here with you.
I know.
Yeah, it's a... I don't know why, I feel like it's been a while since we recorded.
But it hasn't.
Well, I think it's because we recorded on Monday, posted on Monday,
and now we're recording Thursday, posting on Thursday.
And I think it just...
Usually when we sit down and we do a case, we also do ads,
and like, you know, we'll usually sit in here for hours at a time.
That's true.
Although the last episode was about an hour.
Yeah, it was. That was a good one. I liked it.
That was fun.
Got a lot of information out of that one.
I feel like I meant to make a correction, but I don't remember what it was.
But listening back, I was like, I don't think I said that right.
Or I didn't... I think I wanted to convey something else, you know?
I said it sounded fine.
I think it was around the sorality part.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, the mirroring made so much sense, right?
Yeah, it made a lot of sense.
Right?
Isn't that interesting?
It's like, you know, you mirror someone, what... you know...
Well, I'm just doing what you said, you know?
Yeah.
I was gonna bring it up to you.
Yep.
Sounds about right.
So, we have some exciting news.
You wanna share the exciting news?
I'm sure if you guys have us on social media, you've already heard this, but...
Cool.
Yes.
So, we've been busy bees, and that's part of the reason why our episodes haven't really
been coming out.
Like, strictly at midnight, they're usually later in the day.
Instead of doing some research, I... yesterday, I purchased my first domain.
Woohoo!
So, we are the owners of diagnosing a killer.com.
So, we are getting ready to launch a website for y'all, which will include merch and all
kinds of cool things like that.
But besides that, we have been approved to have a booth at the True Crime and Paranormal
Podcast Festival.
Really excited.
That's gonna be in Austin in August.
I'm so excited.
I can't contain it.
And we also have a coupon code.
You should be able to get 15% off of a ticket to come see us in Austin.
I believe it's August 25th through the 27th.
And you'll be able to purchase a ticket with our coupon code once the website launches.
Yeah, super freaking excited about that.
Our little logo is on the website for them, so if you click on it, you can see our little
logo.
And then if you click on our logo, it takes you to, like, our page.
Really excited.
Not our website, but our RSS feed for now.
Oh, okay.
I didn't know that.
Oh, you didn't know it was clickable?
Yeah, so we're really excited to meet just a bunch of really cool creators, and this
is the fourth annual that they've done, so they have a little bit of a leg up on us.
There's a bunch of podcasts that have been, this is going to be their fourth year in a
row going.
And I think we're one of four or five podcasts that's going to be our first time.
So we are really thankful for this opportunity, super excited, and not to mention that my
best friend lives in Austin, so I get to see her all around there.
So that's going to be really cool.
You guys should definitely come check us out.
We would love to meet you guys, and I know it's a three-day event, so we're going to
do potentially a panel, and then we will have a meet and greet, of course, maybe some merch,
things like that.
But we also don't know what to expect because we never did.
I'll bring the Sharpie.
I'll bring the Snap.
Oh, that's true, yeah.
Ooh, I should get like a gold Sharpie.
Ooh, a gold.
Also, in the meantime, we are creating merch, like we said, so any ideas of anything that
you guys would want, maybe on like a t-shirt or a mug or a dog water bowl, mat, or whatever
you think, any quotes that you guys like that we say, or anything that maybe just
spark our creativity because there's a couple things that we've thought of, but I know you
guys are the listeners, so you guys have probably listened to multiple episodes in
a row, which means that you have a better memory of all of our episodes than we do because
we've recorded a bunch, so it would definitely help us out if you guys have any suggestions
or anything you'd like for us to, anything you'd like to see on an item of merch.
Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Tell us what your catchphrases are, so, you know, something that you say often that you
find yourself saying, and you're like, wow, that's from diagnosing a killer.
That would be cool on a t-shirt.
That would be cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, so just let us know.
We love the feedback and continue to message us on Instagram and email us and stuff.
We've been getting a lot more activity with that lately, so thank you guys for reaching
out and we love to hear from you.
I don't know how to segue into this, but it's your case and I'm really excited.
Content warning, this episode depicts scenes of mass suicide and self-harm.
Although these topics are described in a sensitive manner, the subject matters may still be disturbing.
Awareness warning, we will also be discussing some topics that pertain to religion and the
struggles of an LGBTQ plus community member.
These topics discussed within this episode may be sensitive to some.
If this episode is up for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.
Remember that your mental health comes first and we love you.
You can reach the National Suicide Lifeline at 988 and the Trevor Project at 1-866-488-7386.
You are not alone.
Love you.
Bye.
So we're going to talk about Marshall Hearf, Applewhite, Jr.
Oh God, what a fucking name.
He was born in Spur, Texas on May 17th, 1931.
Spur, Texas still to this day only has an IGA, a dollar a general, and a feed store.
Really?
Yeah.
It's still very, very small.
It's by Waco.
Yeah.
I don't know if it's by Waco.
I'm asking.
Oh no, I think it's more like not necessarily panhandling, south of Panhandle.
Very tiny.
Like it has like one road through it.
I've never been there before, but it seems like a very small town and I just looked
it up.
There's like the population of like 1100.
Yeah.
Today.
Very tiny.
So Marshall Jr. clearly the son of Marshall Applewhite Sr. and Louise Applewhite.
He was born the third child out of four total kiddos.
We had Anna Louise, Stella Jane, Marshall Hearf, and the youngest was John Winfield.
Those are cute names.
Aren't they?
They're so country.
Anna Louise.
Stella Jane.
Anna Louise.
You need it over here.
You do your chores.
John Winfield.
That's the last name.
That is the last name.
The children's father was a Presbyterian minister and the household was very religious
growing up.
Marshall Sr. moved the family around a lot since part of his mission or his goal was
to travel, build up congregations and churches, and then move on.
Okay.
So the family was very nomadic.
Marshall Jr. loved to be in church and he really connected to the sermons that his
father would preach.
Soon enough, Marshall too would wish to become a leader in the church and had aspirations
of becoming a minister.
Other than some of the instability as far as the moving went, Marshall grew up with
what he seemed to have like a relatively normal upbringing.
Marshall Jr. insisted on going by his middle name, Hearf.
Yeah, let's just call him Hearf.
Hearf.
What up Hearf?
Which sounds silly to me.
It sounds really silly.
It sounds like Marshall, but I guess it's big Marshall, little Marshall.
Hearf.
Could have gone by Marsh.
Could have gone by Shal.
Throughout his life, Hearf's sexual orientation was questioned by others and was especially
looked closely at by his father.
He graduated from Corpus Christi High.
Did he know?
He did.
Well, the family lived in the Corpus Christi area.
It was said about the family from a fellow churchgoer that Mr. Applewhite Sr. was always
smiling and that he was a really warm person.
Louise was a very hard worker and she often ran the choir on the music side of the sermons.
She was really active in music.
Hearf was determined to attend Austin College in Sherman, Texas after graduating.
And Austin College, it sounds silly because we know Austin is a city, but Austin College
is a Presbyterian school.
And here Hearf found a passion for philosophy.
While in attendance at Austin College, Hearf was very active in religious groups and organizations
and found that he was also musically inclined, similar to his mother.
What year was this again?
It would have been in the 1950s somewhere in there because eventually he would graduate
college with a bachelor's in philosophy.
So, yeah, 1952.
Honestly, like I never understood philosophy and like thank you, professor.
I don't remember your name for passing me because I swear to God I got an F when I was
in my entry to philosophy class at Texas State, but he gave me a C.
Really?
I didn't get an F until like the very end of the fucking course and then all of a sudden
I had a C. I was like, shout out because I would have had to like take it again.
I'm pretty sure that was actually my second time taking it because I failed it the first
time.
I love philosophy.
I think it's, well, I'm not a religious person, so I think that philosophy really appeals
to me just in general.
I just don't understand it.
There's too many names.
There's too many dates of like when these people were alive.
I know like Aristotle and Plato, one of them was the student of the other, but I know
Freud.
That's pretty much like Freud.
Freud has psychology though.
But he, see, fucking obviously I don't even know.
I have a psychology degree.
I don't even know.
I know Freud and Tesla and all those guys.
I thought he was also in philosophy, no.
I mean, he might have, yeah, probably maybe, but he was a psychologist.
He wasn't really like a philosophy is like the study of like why we're on this planet.
I know.
Yeah.
I could have sworn that he would did both.
Whatever.
It doesn't fucking matter.
He thinks them are hysterical and he's dead.
So we can continue on.
Are we not?
I'm not.
I know some are though.
I'm not.
I'm perfect.
Far from it, folks.
So during college, essentially the year that he would graduate in 952, he would actually,
the year that he would graduate in 1952.
I don't know why it's not under my headphones that you said 1952.
Probably.
Okay.
Nice to see you too.
So we always talk about people getting married too quickly, right?
So the year that he graduated in 952.
No.
Oh my God.
I was gonna, I was almost gonna let it slide the first time that I was like, wait, I could
have sworn she didn't say that.
Well, now you've heard it twice.
Okay.
1952, he married a woman named Annie Pierce.
Okay.
Got it?
Okay.
Got it.
During this time, he also, of course, I said that he had already kind of found this passion
for music.
He was actually known to sing operas and was known for his baritone voice.
So it's hard.
Yeah.
And he was a really, really good singer.
He also excelled at public speaking and leadership roles often.
You know, he was in a lot of extracurricular activities that required him to be a leader.
Yes.
Okay.
Wanting to kind of stay on his path, original path of becoming a minister, Herf and Annie
would relocate to Union Presbyterian Seminary to study theology and this was in Richmond,
Virginia.
Okay.
Theology is also something I never understood.
I didn't have to take a theology class, but I think I wouldn't have excelled at it.
Religion.
Herf and Annie would live here for a few years while Herf continued to study and then the
couple would move to North Carolina where Herf found work as a Presbyterian minister
and he was in head of like heading the music department essentially of this local church.
It seems like he's doing like well, he seems fine, right?
He seems like a normal dude.
Totally fine.
A little interested in religion and philosophy and theology.
Yeah.
You know, whatever.
And leadership and you know, it's not going to go anywhere.
Okay.
It's not going to go anywhere.
Diagnosing a happy priest minister.
Herf would be drafted in 1954 where he served in the Army Signal Corps, which I thought
was really interesting.
So communications.
That's interesting to me that he was drafted around that time because there wasn't, besides
the Vietnam War happening a year later, there wasn't a giant thing going on.
It says World War II.
It doesn't know philosophy but knows what the Vietnam War was.
Well, yeah.
Well, it was right after 1954.
Yeah.
You know who I'm dating?
I'm gonna marry.
True.
Yeah.
So yes, he was stationed in Austria and then I think he spent some time in White Sands,
New Mexico, but either way in 1956, he was discharged honorably.
Okay.
Eventually, the pull of his love for music and performance was entirely too much.
Herf would move to Colorado in an effort to pursue a degree in theater arts.
That's interesting.
So I know.
Isn't that strange?
Well, I mean, he's good at opera and stuff.
So clearly he has like a knack for that.
He's got a knack for that.
Going from being a priest to like, I want to be on Broadway.
Working in the army.
Yeah.
Kind of jumping around, dude.
After graduating with a master's degree at the University of Colorado in theater arts,
Herf made the decision to relocate to New York to pursue a career in acting.
Okay.
So he wanted to act.
In New York, Herf would soon realize that his dream of becoming a famous Broadway performer
was unlikely as the couple was struggling financially.
That's showbiz.
Very quickly.
That's showbiz, baby.
Showbiz, baby.
So I tried very hard to find more information about the two children that they had during
this time.
I was mostly looking for dates of when they were born because I didn't really see any.
But after like 30 or 40 minutes of snooping around, I was able to find information on
the kids.
Their names have changed and purely out of respect for the fact that they do not want
to be associated with their biological father, I'm not going to talk about them.
But they did have two children around this time.
Around this time.
Yeah.
Or in the years that they were married.
So yes, Herf would give up on these dreams of being in New York, having my name in lights.
And he moved to Alabama of all places.
This is all over the fucking world map.
He could have gone to LA, he could have tried there.
Or Nashville, I mean shit.
Yeah, for music.
He began to teach at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Tuscaloosa heart.
Tuscaloosa.
Here he became a choir director and he seemed to really like this position.
However, this would be short lived as rumors began to spread that Herf had began a sexual
relationship with a student, a male student.
Oh no.
Wait, hold on.
I don't want to sound like I'm like, oh no.
Oh no, he's gay.
I meant oh no.
Infernality.
Oh no.
It's a man.
Oh no, it's a man.
This was enough for the university to cut ties with Herf completely.
Learning about this affair, Herf and Annie's relationship began to spiral.
The family then moved to Houston, Texas and Herf started working at the music department
at the University of St. Thomas in Houston.
Interesting that he would be allowed to work at another university.
I feel like that would be public record.
It was just rumors though.
It's not like he was late.
Oh yeah.
It's not like he learned that he had the sexual relationship, but he just left.
I'm seemingly to start over anew, right?
So the marriage began to fall apart even still after the move.
Herf decided that it was time for him to come out not only to his wife but to his family.
Of course, this was met with rejection.
His dad's very religious.
Annie filed for divorce and his father denounced him.
Oh god, it's awful.
Really sad.
Nonetheless, Herf was optimistic about his opportunity to live his life authentically
and began his first same-sex relationship during this time while he was going through
the divorce or divorced.
He did date some women as well, so I don't know if he was struggling with orientation
as far as, I mean, that's his business.
That's just really makes me so sad that he, like it's been this long.
He's probably in his 30s now and he's just now finally living the life that he
wanted to live.
His students loved him very much.
They considered him to be a sharp dresser and a fun person.
He was a good teacher.
Herf was still involved in church and he often participated in various choirs of different
churches.
He also participated in at least 15 roles at the Houston Grand Opera.
Wow.
Yes.
And he actually performed many times with Patsy Swayze, which is Patrick Swayze's mother.
So he was a really good actor, singer, performer.
As much as he felt like his life was peaking, Herf was still slowly becoming depressed.
And in 1970, Herf would resign his position after another failed relationship with a student
and the passing of his father.
Oh no.
So he never got closer with his father whatsoever.
He cited psychological problems and admitted himself into a hospital for evaluation, but
he did tell some family members that there was varying stories.
He said that he went to go visit a friend at a hospital.
People around him at the time knew that he was going through the psychological thing.
He had actually been evaluated by the college's psychology department, by somebody that he
worked with and suggested that maybe he go.
He told other people that he was in the hospital because of a cut or something.
Either way, he went into the hospital and he also had, around this time, had expressed
that he had begun hearing voices and thought that a stay in the hospital might cure him
of his queerness as well.
Oh my God.
Yes.
He thought he was mad.
Here he would meet the woman that would not only change his life forever, but the lives
of many others.
Bonnie Lou Nuttles was born to a Baptist household and grew up religious.
After she married, she and her ex-husband had four children together, and by the time
that Bonnie became a registered nurse, she had begun dabbling in astrology and practicing
rituals.
I don't know if she was like Wiccan or what, but it kind of sounded like that a little
bit.
Yeah.
But she doesn't love a Wiccan.
Aww.
I don't really know much about their, I just know that they paint their doors like certain
colors.
Do they?
Their front doors?
Oh yeah.
I don't know that.
I don't know, or like bright, like purple or fuchsia.
I didn't know that.
That's just what I've been told.
I don't know about truth.
I'm going to do that.
At one point she visited a fortune teller that told Bonnie, one day you'll meet a tall,
light-haired and fair-complected man that would change her life forever.
That is the vaguest description of anyone in her life.
That could be anyone.
I could mean three.
So you mean a guy, an average dude?
It's a Mayan.
So by the time that Herf was admitted into the hospital that Bonnie worked at, Bonnie
had her eye out specifically for a tall, fair-haired, fair-skinned man.
She's like, oh my god, there he is.
Shit.
This has to be the one.
I didn't wear clean underwear today.
So yes, Herf matched this description and the two became incredibly close very quickly.
They discussed religion and philosophy and the occult.
After Bonnie gave Herf his first tarot card reading, the two believed that they were
both destined for big things and soon the two would become roommates after Herf was
discharged from the hospital.
Okay.
And they were roommates.
Herf believed that he and Bonnie were connected somehow from the past life and they had an
intense spiritual connection.
God, I see where this is going.
Right.
So they talked about UFOs and extraterrestrials and began to believe that they would be able
to communicate with aliens.
Henry Thomas.
Aw.
Hi Henry.
Have we never shouted out Henry before?
We haven't.
Henry, if you're listening, we love you and we haven't seen you in a long time.
So although they seemed to be a couple, Herf and Bonnie's relationship was completely
platonic, denouncing sex completely from their lives.
Moving over the Bible, the pair started calling themselves the twos in reference to Revelation
11.3-13.
Okay.
You ready for this?
Yes.
Quote, And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for 1,260 days, clothes
in sackcloth.
They are the two olive trees and the two lampstands, and they stand before the Lord of the earth.
If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies.
This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.
They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time that
they are prophesying.
And they have the power to turn the waters into blood and strike the earth with every
kind of plague as often as they want.
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will
attack them and overpower and kill them.
Their bodies will lie in a public square of the great city, which is figuratively called
Sodom in Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
For three and a half days, some from every people, tribe, language, and nation will gaze
on their bodies and refuse them burial.
The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other
gifts because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
And after three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered them and they stood
on their feet and terror struck those who saw them.
Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, come up here, and they went up to
the heaven in the cloud where their enemies looked on.
At the very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed.
Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake and the survivors were terrified and gave
glory to the God of heaven.
The end.
So essentially that's what they're referencing when they call themselves the two.
They are the two, I mean I know there's four horses and an apocalypse, but these are the
two that essentially die and then are resurrected.
No, yeah, it's like Colin Hanks and Dexter.
Yeah.
He's like, we're the two prophets.
Exactly.
We cannot die.
And he's like, you fucking stabbed me.
But I am dead.
Dexter in a nutshell.
Yeah, also shout out Colin Hanks if you're listening.
I love you.
That's one of those things that really bugs me is when people use religion as a weapon
or as like a means to act out evil.
Yeah.
Well it says it right here.
It's right here.
Yeah, while it's a little interpretation.
In 1973, the two packed their belongings, said goodbye to their families, including Bonnie's
young children, and began touring the US in search of a place of a land to create a congregation.
So they're not going to go to Egypt like it says.
No, they got to find it somewhere else.
Oh, so then it doesn't make sense.
They're not even going to the place.
Well, it said in the land, which is figuratively called Sodom in Egypt.
Oh.
That's what that said.
A loophole.
Loopholes.
There's always a loophole.
So whenever I say the two, just realize that I'm saying it like capitalization for the
most part.
So the two quickly ran out of funds, traveling from park to park, camp to camp, stealing what
they could when they could, and they also sold their blood for money.
Oh, so not steal?
Did you not read that part of the fucking Bible?
No, that's the Bible.
The Bible?
The Bible.
Oh, I love the Bible.
The knockoff Bible.
So they're just using this one scripture and they're going to interpret it to do whatever
the fuck they want.
Sure.
Essentially.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah.
I mean, there's some probably some things going on in there.
Up in the old bird cage.
He's clearly mentally ill.
I'm not sure about her.
He's clearly hearing things.
They would gain their first follower in 1974, which was a family friend from Houston, and
she began to travel with them as well.
Hurf began to write propaganda depicting himself as Jesus Christ reincarnated as a cowboy.
What the fuck?
In reference to himself because he was from Texas.
I'd like to see that painting.
Howdy, y'all.
Oh my gosh.
You've seen those paintings of Jesus where he's slam dunking a basketball or he's lying
on one of those.
He's laying on one of those.
It's like one of those.
He's a cowboy.
It's hilarious.
How dare you.
They outlined their religion saying that the afterlife would be called the next level.
And in the next level, they would be transported through space ships and fly off into the
center of something I don't remember.
I'm sorry.
I'm not meaning to laugh.
They truly probably believed this.
Oh yeah, absolutely.
That's really sad because clearly they're, at least him if not both of them are experiencing
a delusion of some sort.
In May, Hurf was arrested for not returning a rental car because it was quote, divinely
gifted to him.
What was it?
He spent six months in jail for this.
And after his release, all of this time that he kind of had by himself, he really wanted
to hit the pavement as far as recruiting people, as many people as possible.
He's like, that six months in jail was divinely given to me because it gave me time to think
about my plans.
Exactly.
Yeah, absolutely.
So the two hit the pavement.
They started recruiting people.
They approached people with pamphlets and offered anyone who would want to join a chance
to reach quote, the next level.
Freezing it almost like it was an experiment.
I was like, well, you have nothing to lose because if it doesn't happen, like whatever,
you know, but like also spaceship ride for free.
I think you lose, but you're a fucking sanity in your life.
Well, so the two approached this like kind of like they were sci-fi nerds.
And this is also a really big thing in the 1970s.
Things like Star Trek, Star Wars, Dark Star.
I totally forgot how much I love the movie Dark Star.
If Movication Guys are listening, please do an episode on Dark Star.
That movie is so cool.
I can't say I've seen it.
It's awesome.
And it's just a bunch of dudes with big beards.
It's like Duck Dynasty meets Star Wars or what?
Yeah, kind of.
They all have these really big beards.
So everything about space was super intriguing at this point of our culture society and also
just counterculture in general.
Yeah.
So I can see how people would be kind of gravitating towards that.
Yeah.
It probably thought it was like a little club, you know, where we just sit around and a little
club.
A little club.
We just eat our flying saucer, double-dags.
And just don't drink the flavorade.
In 1975, the two had about 30 followers and they traveled to California to continue to
grow.
At this time, the two began calling each other Bo and Peep in reference to the fact that
they considered them their followers a flock of sheep and they were the shepherds.
Oh my god.
So as they coached the flock in preparation for the next level, Bo would preach that renouncing
all earthly desires was a necessary step in order to be accepted on the ship.
So what do you do?
You get there and starve to death and renounce everything on earth, all the desires.
Yeah.
What if I have to pee?
That's a desire.
You can go to the bathroom.
I can't do that.
No drugs, no alcohol, no jewelry, no media, no facial hair, no sexuality, no friends,
no family.
I'm out.
You lost me at facial hair.
You lost my school and TQ.
You lost me at alcohol.
That's only the second one.
I'm just kidding.
Oh, okay.
So did people leave after this?
Bo insisted that almost also have biblical names, but ending with Audi.
So like Leviticus would be Levati or James would be Jamati.
I'm not even kidding.
Why?
I don't know.
He insisted.
Bo insisted that they all change their names to something that was uniform.
Audi?
Yeah.
That's really Audi.
I'm so funny.
Around this time, the group also began calling themselves Heaven's Gate.
So I'm sure everybody knows a little bit or at least has heard something about Heaven's
Gate.
In late 1975, although the group was traveling from place to place, campsites and such, Bo
would say that there would be no more public meetings.
They couldn't have public meetings out in an open space.
So around this time, the group would rent houses, spending some time in Denver and some
time in Dallas.
So they were renting these big home properties and they began to grow and grow.
Bo was convinced that heat and peep would be assassinated at some point.
So it gave another reason to not be out in the world and begin to isolate these people.
After some time, the media got wind of this cult-like group traveling about talking about
aliens and UFOs.
Bo claimed that this was the assassination that he prophesied.
What?
He was like, oh, slander, slander.
You assassinated my character because the prophecy wasn't coming true.
On other occasions, the two gathered their followers in a field claiming that their
higher ups would appear in the sky to send them a message.
After a few hours of standing around, peep said, you're going to be out.
Peep said she had received a message that the visit was a test to test everybody's devotion.
Yes.
Oh my god.
And people were like, oh, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Oh wait, actually that does make sense.
Oh thank god I passed that test.
Because I was there, standing in the field for hours.
No peeing.
No alcohol.
You don't need real ink to make an impact.
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So the group was essentially becoming isolated from friends and family, and Bo and Peep didn't
allow outside communication to anybody.
Some followers would leave, but oftentimes return, saying that they had never had, you
know, self-worth more than inside the group.
Just like that really do have a way of making you feel special and needed in that area.
Bo had an open door policy for any issues that the members wanted to express to him,
but encouraged the members not to discuss their qualms with other members, not only
to keep control of what was being said, you know what I mean?
Because if all the problems come to him, he knows how to fix it before it reaches anybody
else, which is really calculated.
It was also in this kind of weird way to not incite an uprising as well, because if
you're talking to someone, you know, and everybody kind of comes to this agreement that they're
going to overtake him or overthrow him or whatever.
Yeah, no, that's definitely seems like something that would go on in the group like that.
By 1980, there were over 80 members in the group, and after multiple attempts by family
members to contact their loved ones, Bo did allow some of them to come visit their families
on Mother's Day of 1980.
But it had to be on the property with his supervision.
Yes, of course.
And I think it was also so that the family members didn't call the cops for well-being
checks and stuff.
No, yeah, for sure, but also he probably put on a facade like, oh look, it's like a cool
little community.
We're all hanging out here, everyone's happy.
The group were instructed to tell their families that they were pursuing careers in mechanics
and that they were safe and secure in their religion.
Most of the group were actually encouraged to work on mechanics and computers since that
would be one of the only remaining jobs on the next level.
Wow.
Yeah.
By this point, Bo and Peep started going by Doe and Tee.
Why do they keep changing their fucking names?
Which is apparently completely random.
That apparently was no meaning behind it, they just changed their names.
It just rhymes with their previous names.
Doe, a deer, a female deer.
Yeah, they used to sing that all the time too.
Oh god.
Isn't that terrifying?
The sound of horror.
Which was, yeah, like I said, completely random on the names.
They probably claimed that it was like passed down.
Like, oh, I don't know, it just came to me.
Divine gift from God.
Yeah.
In 1983, Tee expressed to Doe that she had been sick for some time.
Tee had suffered from cancer and can no longer hide the fact that she was going to go through
emergency surgery, which actually removed one of her eyes that was damaged by cancer.
Wouldn't that be against the rules though, to have surgery or to have medical help?
Medical intervention?
I don't know.
Well, they do believe in science.
That's true.
Yeah.
This goes against all things that they preached because Doe and Tee were supposed to join
the group at the same time on the next level.
Tee believed in Doe and she believed that when he said that it was impossible for her
to die, she believed him.
She cursed the doctors when they suggested that she only had a year or so to live.
Bonnie Lunettles would pass on June 19th, 1985, just two years later.
Oh no.
Doe preached to the group that Tee had left her broken vessel behind and was already promoted
to the next level and that their duty was to stay behind so that they could eventually
be reunited with Tee because Tee was helping from the other side, like the next level.
He just had to think on his feet and say something because he didn't know how to explain
away her death.
Yes.
So, he was complicating things for Doe.
He also had to explain why Tee didn't hop on a spaceship and go to the next level.
Because that's what they've been saying, like we're going to board this spaceship
and we're going to leave together.
Doe claimed that Earth bodies are different from space bodies, so Tee left hers behind
and gained a new one that is more acclimated to the ship and that all of the followers
would also receive new bodies, essentially a resurrection.
Oh no.
That's like giving way for them to all be willing to die.
It's awful.
Oh, that's fucking terrible.
I think the saddest fact about Tee's passing is that almost nine or ten months later,
Tee's daughter came looking for her mother, had no idea that she had passed away.
And Doe, unfortunately, had to break the news to her, which is awful.
Yeah, he couldn't fucking say anything when it did happen.
Because this is like years later after she abandoned her family.
Yeah.
Oh my god.
Doe, of course, became very depressed that Tee was his sole partner.
Tee's death triggered something in him and he began having marriage ceremonies with his
followers of any gender and started using he-him pronouns when referring to Tee because he
believed that she was the father of God.
Okay.
So Tee was, I'm assuming that they were saying that Tee's body, although maybe indicative
of female anatomy, was a vessel for the father of God.
And so when he referred to Tee, he referred to her as he.
It's just getting worse.
Yeah.
It's like, but again, they're eating it up.
They trust him so much.
They're just believing him.
Doe began to become increasingly paranoid of government involvement and paranoid of the
people around him as well.
So further isolating, like further isolating himself and others.
He felt that outsiders were controlled by Lucifer and constantly talked about the apocalypse.
So throughout the 1980s, there were multiple alien abduction claims, which Doe felt like
this was proof that there is more followers around the globe that are also going to the
next level.
Okay.
Right?
Does that make sense?
I mean, no, but yes.
If further convinced others that they too would also be called up to the next level as well.
I just, I wouldn't be in a situation like this in the first place.
However, I would probably be like, so why has it been taking so long for us to get there?
If you keep saying this and it's happening to everyone else, what are we doing wrong
that we haven't been able to get there?
So the group actually fell off the map for quite a few years and by 1988, the group's
peak was actually at 200 members.
So they gained quite a bit of following, right?
During this quiet period, Doe found a doctor that was willing to perform a mass castration
of the members who chose to participate.
What?
Yeah.
Was he a veterinarian or was he like an actual human doctor?
Because I feel like that's what veterinarians do, not actual human doctors.
Maybe HH.
God, that's fucking bonkers.
From all accounts, I'm pretty sure only seven to nine people participated though.
That's still like almost a dozen people.
That's wild.
It was suggested by Doe as a form of proving you'd leave your earthly desires behind and
assign a commitment to the group's ideals.
But if they were already abstaining from sex, why do they have to be on the group?
Maybe some couldn't.
Maybe that's those are the people that said that they would, you know, is that they still
felt like they had this and if they couldn't perform anymore or whatever, then maybe they
wouldn't feel that way.
Yeah.
Doe himself was also castrated.
Doe said that the next level beings do not have genders in originitalia and that to castrate
yourself would make you one step closer to being like them.
Just getting acclimated to your next level body, right?
Yeah.
Well, not yeah, like I understand, but yes.
Yeah.
I totally get that.
I hear what you're saying.
Like previously mentioned, the group wasn't allowed to consume any media of any kind,
but now coming into the 90s, the internet was becoming a thing and public access cable
TV was also a thing.
So Doe would actually preach on public access television and some of these, some of this
footage would later become infamous footage.
Doe would often have the group video record their experiences while preparing for the
next level, which included shaving their heads and bodies, dressing the same as they wanted
to look more androgynous.
After criticism was thrown their way, several members did leave the group and the numbers
actually plummeted all the way down to just 26 members in a few years since the castration
stuff.
Well, but what did he not like do anything?
Like when people left, he just like let them leave.
Yeah.
Or he didn't try to like backlash.
Right.
Exactly.
And then when they came back, they were received with open arms.
They didn't, there was no, it was just like, you know, oh look, there's Lavi, Lottie Dolly
or whatever it is.
I just feel like, yeah, I just feel like that's kind of different than what I would assume
would happen is like I would feel like he would be like mad that someone would leave
and then try to like re recruit them or not allow them to leave or something like that.
Because then they would reveal the secrets of the, of the group to other people on the
outside or whatever.
Yeah.
And really, it wasn't more that they were trying to keep their religion privatized.
I think it was more like, A, he was paranoid.
He didn't want to be around people.
B, their recruiting style was more like one-on-one face-to-face.
And I think that the preaching part of it was like once you were accepted into this piece
of land or whatever, I don't think that he was really terrified of anybody going around
talking about their religion.
I think that he wanted to do that.
He didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
Right.
Okay.
So there was a part of him that genuinely cared about people in a weird way.
And having people pay attention to him and listen to him, you know, preach.
And I think that's what gave him power, whether it was one person or 25 people or 200 people.
They also moved around a lot.
So I'm sure there's plenty of times where followers just did not follow them.
In 1995, Doe learned that the Hail Buck Comet was to pass in 1997.
And this was a sign to him that this would become the vessel carrying the next level
ship.
Oh, great.
Doe, becoming older and fearful of being sick of cancer himself, looked to settle down
somewhere and purchased a compound in New Mexico, although it was more like a piece of land
that they tried to like make shacks at.
And it didn't work out.
They lived there for about a year.
And during this time, Doe began preaching how he now realized the only way out of their
human forms was to commit suicide.
Oh, my gosh.
He further explained to the group that when Hail Buck Comet were to pass is when they
needed to board the vessel onto the comet to achieve the next level.
The group would then move one more time to San Diego, California.
Doe began his final recordings of the group on March 19, 1997.
Doe began to explain all of the intent behind what was to come.
He talked about their beliefs and provided what he claimed to be proof that this is the
only way for the group to make it onto the next level ship.
On March 20, Doe allowed his 38 followers that agreed to take their lives to say goodbye
to their families through a video recording.
Most of the group described their long-awaited journey, saying that they hated Earth and
that they could not wait for the next step in their life.
Mostly they never shed a tear.
They were genuinely excited to exit Earth is what they would say.
On March 21st, the group gathered one last time to enjoy a meal together.
They ate turkey pot pie, cheesecake with blueberries, and drink tea.
Yum.
That's like my kind of meal.
That sounds good, right?
On March 22nd, the group began to take their lives.
And I won't say it here.
If you want to look up the method, you more than welcome to just go Google it.
It's on Wikipedia, but just for respect, I'm just not even going to put this in there.
It doesn't matter.
But essentially they overdosed.
One by one, as the members began to pass, others who were tasked with caring for the
bodies afterwards would hide their face in purple coverings, place a coin bag with some
money in it, and a form of ID next to each body.
The money was $5.25, which was said to have referenced Mark Twain's Captain Stormfield's
Visit to Heaven, where he wrote that quote, to hitch a ride on a comet costs $5.75.
The group was given patches that adorn their uniforms, saying, quote, Heaven's Gate away
team on it.
They most notably worn Nike sneakers.
Everybody knows that.
I don't know that.
They all wore Nike sneakers.
Yeah.
And they were a very specific type of Nike sneakers.
I don't even know.
Apparently they were cheap and comfortable, and that's according to Doe.
It would be another four days before an anonymous caller asked for a welfare check on the grounds
of the group's house.
There on March 26, the bodies were discovered.
39 members, including Marshall Applewhite, were found dead.
Oh my God.
21 women, 18 men, aged between 26 and 72.
So I'm going to list a few of these.
There's only 31 listed here, and the others either have probably not been identified or
have not been released.
Judith Rowland, 50.
Cheryl Butcher, 32.
David Van Cendron, 48.
Alan Bowers, 45.
Margaret Bull, 54.
Alfonso Foster, 44.
David Moore, 40.
Julie Lamontogne, 45.
Darwin Lee Johnson, 42.
Robert Arrencio, 45.
Gary Jordan St. Louis, 43.
Ladonna Bregato, 40.
Joel Peter McCormick, 28.
Gail Mater, 27.
Thomas Nichols, 58.
John Craig, 62.
Margaret Richter, 46.
Susan Elizabeth Nora Paup, 53.
Michael Barr Sando, 25.
Norma Jean Nelson, 59.
Susan Cook, 54.
Jacqueline Leonard, 72.
Susan Strom, 44.
Yoram McCurdy Hill, 38.
Denise J. Thurman, 44.
Linlee Earhart, 41.
Jeffrey Howard Lewis, 41.
Erica Ernst, 40.
Lucy Eva Pechow, 63.
And Joyce Scala, 58.
Damn.
So Nichelle Nichols' brother, who was Thomas Nichols.
I had mentioned Thomas Nichols.
He passed at 58.
Nichelle Nichols is actually an actress
from the original Star Trek.
Oh, really?
So that was her brother that passed,
which is pretty interesting given that this is all sci-fi.
Well, you know what's interesting to me
is that when you think of a cult and people that
are able to become brainwashed to the point
where they are willingly committing suicide,
I would immediately assume that they would be younger people,
like maybe late teens, early 20s.
And most of the people that you read were in their 40s and 50s
even older.
That's really surprising to me that people of that age,
I know you said one person was 72,
are able to become brainwashed like that.
Because again, I would think of that as not fully developed
brain behavior.
My point in saying that is that shows how convincing,
how manipulative, how calculated this man was.
Right.
Applewhite was 65, though.
Yeah.
So yeah.
It's just, yeah, it was an older bunch.
I don't know why.
I don't know why, sci-fi stuff.
I'm not sure.
But I mean, then again, they were following him for many years.
So maybe they were much younger when they first met him.
And then they just formed this bond.
And you know, it's true.
Wow.
This was the largest mass suicide involving American citizens
since Jonestown in 1978, which claimed 913 people.
Holy shit.
I didn't realize it was that many.
It was a lot.
But they didn't do it willingly.
No, they did.
Jonestown?
Yeah.
I thought he'd give it to them and they didn't know.
No, he gave it to them.
And parents were feeding their babies.
Oh, you're right.
Yeah.
You're right.
Yeah, absolutely.
God.
Appleshite.
Oh my god.
Yeah, I mean.
Appleshite was found not to be.
Applewhite was found to not have been riddled with cancer
upon his autopsy.
He was actually found to have a coronary, bear with me,
he was found to have coronary atherosclerosis.
OK.
Sounds nice, right?
Which can cause strokes, heart disease,
and a myriad of other issues.
So he clearly knew that something was going on with his body.
Yeah.
He thought he had cancer.
He didn't.
He was found in his bed.
He was the third to last to die.
So two other members were the last.
Because they were probably tasked with putting stuff
next to his head and stuff.
Yes.
And they were the only two found without purple
shrouds over their heads.
Various individuals that had ties to the group previously
received the farewell videos and at least one media outlet.
So that was purposely sent out.
The videos were soon published and public knowledge.
Oh my god.
Like that's so awful.
Imagine that being one of your family members.
People all over the world can see that last moment of their life.
And most of these people from the accounts that I read
didn't tell some of their family members they were leaving.
They just went missing one day.
So to find out that one of those people that I might have listed
might have been one of those people,
there was one instance where I think
it might have been Scala, Joyce Scala, who was a news reporter
and said that she was going to go to a religious meeting
of some kind.
And she was never seen again until her passing.
And she was very devout.
What a helpless feeling, like being a family member
of those people, especially ones that didn't know what
was going on.
And then literally the next thing you hear about them
is that they're dead.
That's, god, it must be such a helpless feeling.
If they had just, I can't believe, I can't imagine
when people felt like if they had just opened up to me
about this, I might have been able to get them out of there
or something.
Marshall Applewhite was actually on the cover of Times Magazine.
That's how big this was.
After the incident became worldwide news.
This incident would claim more lives
over the following few months.
A 58-year-old man who was reading the news
decided to take his own life in fear of missing the comet.
Three or more former Heavens Gate members
would also commit suicide within the following months.
Right?
Geez.
The co-discoverer of the Hale-Bott comet, Alan Hale,
said that he wasn't surprised, honestly,
when the story began to break.
Comets have been very powerful forces in spirituality
since the dawn of time.
People have looked up to the stars for answers
since we could look up.
And many cultures have differing ideas
of what it means to see a comet.
Because, I mean, let's face it, we all
wish on shooting stars sometimes, right?
The Hale-Bott comet was the most viewed comet in history,
beating out Haley's from 1986.
I bet.
Because everyone's like, what the fuck is this comet about?
Let's go take a look at it.
Right?
And it's true.
And the news broke before the comet, before you could see it.
Well, I'm sure that some people, a bunch of people, I'm sure,
were like, maybe there is a spaceship on the comet.
Maybe we should watch it and see if some land's anywhere.
So the Hale-Bott comet was actually
visible without the use of a telescope for up to 18 months.
That's how massive this thing was.
18 months?
18 months.
How fat?
That's what it said.
That's what the word said.
It's probably traveling fast as fuck,
but you can't see it traveling fast as fuck
because you're so far away.
And it was also so big as the whole thing of it.
Right?
That's what it was.
The Heavens Gate Colt ran for 22 years
and essentially absolved and did obscurity after the suicides.
Not very many people followed.
Yeah.
Many people believe that Marshall Applewhite
is a murderer for brainwashing the group
and that they were victims of wanting to feel like they belong
to something great.
Marshall Applewhite was never diagnosed with anything
necessarily, but the paranoia and mania
that he experienced may have come from schizophrenia.
I agree.
To me, the most obvious issue that hurt Marshall the most
was how his sexual orientation was repressed.
His entire life.
And he never really felt like he could be himself.
And then when Bonnie came along, she kind of
helped support him in his sexuality.
However, he identified was accepted.
And they fed off of each other for that.
Today, there are about 2,500 to 3,000 cults
in the United States today.
Really?
Not even kidding.
Although some of them can be very small, right?
Yeah.
And in the 70s, it was very common to have communes
and live off the land and stuff.
And then we also talked about the fact that counterculture
was also very big.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was kind of grand enough for that to happen,
that people would just go off on these little cliques
and create their own little communities.
Part of the reason that someone might be drawn to Heaven's
Gate wasn't just the space exploration thing,
but that Marshall and Bonnie adopted a lot of beliefs
from other cultures that kind of commingled with science.
So a lot of Westernized culture stuff, too.
It was kind of a wide nut that they casted.
And although they kind of fumbled with a lot of the details,
I think that most everyone participated,
had to have had at least one or two things they were attracted
to.
Yeah, they can relate to something.
Right.
Another thing is that when they recruited,
like we mentioned earlier, they would recruit one-on-one.
So it wasn't just out of dough and tea's mouth.
It was out of everybody else's.
So like I said, the greatest comparison you can have
is Christianity.
It's by word of mouth.
You don't necessarily have to go listen to a minister,
preacher talk about the Bible in order for somebody
to approach you and talk to you about the Bible.
And so I think that's another reason why it grew
and why it was so intriguing to people.
And it would really grasp people.
Yeah, definitely.
I think another thing that people really adhered to
is the fact that they grew so quickly over such a short amount
of time with just that face-to-face.
Well, definitely.
People want what other people have.
People want to be included.
They want to be a part of things.
That's the scary thing about cult especially when you're so young.
And I mean, I know those of these people were older,
but you don't know how young they were when they started
following him.
It was 22 years.
Those people that were in their 40s or in their 20s when they
might have joined.
And being at such a young, influential age,
I mean, it just reminds me of like Charlie Manson.
A lot of his followers were young women.
And really influential age.
And you're listening to someone that is a little bit older than you.
So they're already more wise in your eyes.
And you're really at an age where you want to do your own thing.
You want to think for yourself.
And people like that can make you think that you're thinking
for yourself.
This is your idealizations.
You're making this choice for yourself.
And in reality, they're controlling the way that you think.
And you don't even realize it until you're completely brainwashed.
I agree with that.
Yeah, Doe definitely had this sense of you're in control.
You're totally in control of this whole situation here.
I just have a few requests.
And people honor that because they are enjoying this.
In this specific case, they're enjoying this thought of, man,
like when I get to this next level,
I'm going to have everything I want.
And this is my choice to make.
I can leave whenever I want.
I can come back whenever I want.
And I will still be accepted.
Exactly.
And that's the thing.
I'm not really sure.
And I don't know how you feel about it.
But I'm not really sure that he was a cold, blooded killer.
I think that he was really misguided and really let down
as a child.
And he wanted to control his choices.
In turn, he wanted to let others control their choices.
But I think he also wanted in the back of his mind
to control others.
And he was clearly mentally ill.
He was sick.
So that's why he was having all these paranoias, delusions,
hearing the voices and stuff like that.
And unfortunately, that led into his group
that he decided to make.
And I truly believe that he wanted to kill himself.
And he was willing to let a lot of other people do it as well.
For sure.
I don't think that he wanted to kill other people
for that satisfaction.
I think he wanted to die.
And he wanted other people to die with him.
I agree.
Or as well, if they wanted to.
Right.
And especially talking about the sexual and the repression
of sexual orientation, him growing up, thinking that, OK,
I'm not going to be praised for being gay or however
you identified.
I'm not going to be praised for that.
But what I will be praised for is preaching.
And what I will be praised for is teaching and guiding.
And so I think, especially when it comes down
to the castration, clearly that's something
that he experienced because he couldn't get over
however he felt this repression of a sexual orientation.
And through that, people are like, oh, well,
I'm dealing with those same problems.
Or I'm struggling with that as well.
So you have support in me.
Yeah.
They can identify with each other.
But definitely an interesting thought.
Yeah.
That's a really sad story.
It is.
It's a lot of tragedy, my bad, y'all.
No.
Definitely really different than anything we've ever done.
I mean, that's, and that can be perceived multiple ways.
You know, some people might hear that and think,
he's not a killer.
You know, everyone had their free will and their choice.
Some people will think that he's a monster.
So but I think it's definitely fits the theme of our podcast
because he was clearly mentally ill.
And he did, he did unfortunately cause, I think,
caused the deaths of other people.
Yeah, absolutely.
With his manipulation tactics.
And again, that schizophrenia hits right at that age,
especially after the loss of his father.
You know, he felt like he had a mental breakdown
and that's why he went into the,
you want to say, mental break?
No, I just wanted to go, brrrch.
Sorry.
But he did, I think that he felt like he was having
a mental breakdown.
And then here comes Bonnie, willing to give him anything
and everything that he needs.
Yeah, definitely.
As far as cultivating what he wanted to create for himself.
Definitely.
So.
Definitely.
Interesting.
Well, thanks for bringing that case.
Yeah.
That was really great.
You guys, if you'd like, can follow us on social media,
anywhere at Diagnosing a Killer.
Twitter is at Killer Diagnosis.
We do have a Patreon as well.
That is going to be on our website when that does launch.
And we'll keep you guys posted on that.
The True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival is in August.
You have until then to get your tickets.
I would recommend just getting them early,
because I don't know how, I'm sure they will sell out
at some point.
Yeah.
So, better safe than not to be able to get one.
And yeah, thank you guys so much for the support.
We'll be back on Monday with another mental breakdown.
And I was actually going to tell you,
we need to get my case recorded as well,
because I'm going out of town this weekend.
And I'm going, we're going to be gone all week.
So we're not going to have time to record.
Shit.
But we'll make sure to get that out for you guys as well
next Thursday.
And yeah.
Yeah.
No, I'm good.
All right.
We'll talk to you guys later.
Love you.
Bye.
Love you.
Bye.
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