Hello. Hello.
Oh.
Bruce from Hollywood.
Hello. Hello.
It's all sultry.
I'm Koelle. And I'm Kenna.
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
The mental breakdown.
The minty breaky.
Yes.
I'm excited.
I'm excited too.
So I've been watching recently this YouTube channel and they kind of dissect the way that people like speak or hold themselves like behavioral analysis.
Okay.
And they're really, really interesting. They're called behavior, behavior panel. They're a lot of fun to watch.
Anyways, they did one on Richard Ramirez and there was this really creepy quote that I kind of just want to like throw out there.
So the interviewer says, you've now entered a very rare group of people in this country.
You're in the ranks with Charlie Manson and Ted Bundy.
You claim you didn't commit these murders, but you're right there now as far as everyone else is concerned.
Richard says, serial killers do on a small scale what governments do on a large one.
They are the product of the times and these are bloodthirsty times.
Even psychopaths have emotions if you dig deep enough. But then again, maybe they don't.
The interviewer asks, do you have emotions Richard?
He says, no comment.
He said no comment.
Do you think he was like intentionally trying to be creepy or do you think he was just being himself and it was actually creepy?
Well, I think it was a little bit of both because that's what makes him so interesting is that he's obsessed with this idea of making people feel uncomfortable.
He enjoys that. That's what gets him off. That's what he likes is to make, I mean, he's the night stalker.
You know, I mean, that's what he does. He prays upon people in the middle of the night.
It's unnerving.
And I think that it is, you know, he's a little obsessed about cult things and the creepier the better, for sure.
Yeah, but I mean, even the interviewer was like, you don't have to read from that piece of paper because he brought a piece of paper and wrote down all these specific things that he wanted to say.
Because he can't have an original thought or just like talk to someone normally in a regular conversation.
He has to like have notes about like how creepy he can be.
And yeah, exactly like, oh, that's so good. That's going to creep someone out.
It's like a comedian writing his punchlines.
Yeah, exactly.
It's all a joke.
And one very real moment his face kind of drops and he says, I gave up on love a long time ago.
And I think like there in that moment and even the behavior panel talks about how it's a very rare real moment because his face is laxed.
It's not creepily smiling or whatever. And I think he really, really feels that way that he was let down his whole life, which he was.
That's really sad. Yeah. It's almost like, you know, you get glimpses of people, especially now when courts are able to be video recorded, you know, court hearings and stuff.
But one of the earliest, one of those I would say is Ted Bundy when they were able to kind of record in the courtroom.
And we've talked about this before, but for the listeners that maybe haven't heard me say this before.
There's just one part of his trial where he's being walked out from the courtroom by officers and someone in the crowd like says something to him.
And this stoic Ted that's just been like super nonchalant, super cash the whole time, completely like snaps and he looks back at her with these like black eyes.
And she said in a later comment, that's exactly what his victims saw that that person, not the person that is trying to defend himself and is standing on the witness stand for himself.
This guy that has those deep dark eyes, giving me that horrendous look. That's what his victims saw. And that's terrifying.
It is. And I can snap like that.
I don't remember who I was speaking with about this, but even like Gary Ridgway, if you look at photos of Gary Ridgway, his eyes are blue.
He's kind of a good looking dude.
His eyes are blue. And that young photo where he's actually smiling, you know, his eyes are blue.
You look at the photo of him being arrested, his eyes are jet black. It is so haunting.
It's like animalistic.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't know if it's the dilation of pupils or what it is, but it's absolutely consistent.
Adrenaline or whatever makes you kind of on edge and look different. Yeah, that's because you know how different people's eyes can look when they're mad versus when they're happy.
I don't know if you I mean, I'm sure you've had a friend that has green eyes and when they cry their eyes get like bright green.
Like it's so cool, but it's like tennis.
I mean, even like Casey's eyes change color when he's upset or when he's happy or whatever I've noticed.
You see it when you see someone so often you notice.
So the topic we're going to talk about is going to be lying.
Oh, we're going to talk about lying.
Okay.
We're going to talk about the definition of lying.
We're going to talk about some reasons people may lie.
And we're going to talk about some ways that you can spot that through body language since I was talking about behavior panel.
And then at the end, we're also going to talk about some diagnoses that come along with stuff like that.
Complete side note right before we get started.
Just reminded me when you said lying, I don't I'm really bad at lying.
I know that you know that I don't like to lie.
I really sometimes I will and then I'll feel so guilty about it later.
But in a way that it helped me knowing this knowledge about lying and my psychology degree.
And when I was working at my last job, I we did a secret Santa and I had my boss who actually also has a psychology degree.
So I knew when he asked me if I had him, I couldn't give the tells because then he would know I was lying.
Right.
So I did the opposite of what you would do when you were lying and he thought I was telling the truth.
And I was like, oh my God, I tricked him like that's I felt like I had like a superpower for a second.
Like I didn't like to lie, of course, but it's like all fun and games.
You want to maintain the secrecy of secret Santa.
But for sure.
It was just funny because you know, I'm sure you'll mention it, but there's certain tells that people give,
especially people that are right dominant, left dominant things like that.
But I didn't do them on purpose and he really thought I was telling the truth.
That's really bad.
You pass the lie detector.
I guess I could be a good liar if I wanted to.
But I don't know.
I just I hate my guilty conscience.
I feel like most people know where they stand with me.
I feel like I don't really genuinely have to express how I'm feeling because I'm already doing it.
Yeah, exactly.
So yeah, if something bothers me, I will say something.
I'll let you know.
I think we're similar in that way.
Like if something's bugging me, like you will know.
If I don't like you, you will know.
Yeah.
So people lie just for whatever reason, right?
Yeah.
So a lie or lying is to make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive.
Very important.
Okay.
So some of the reasons that someone would lie, right?
First of all, to avoid being punished.
Yeah, of course.
So many people grow up with the intention of pleasing the closest people to us in our lives,
namely family members.
We have grown to learn how our future social selves will participate in the world by, you know, our surroundings.
So this also comes with trying not to upset those that are around us, right?
We want to have a peaceful existence, well, little.
Yeah.
So lying at a young age, it starts usually around three, but mostly at four.
Okay.
It can last all the way up to six with just, there's certain steps, essentially, like milestones.
Lying milestones, if you will.
And so from like four to six, it'll be things that are obviously not true.
But this idea of theory of mind starts to develop at four, where a four-year-old is realizing other people have minds that I may or may not be able to manipulate.
And so they start understanding this concept of, I have an internal dialogue, but so do you.
And I want to know if I can change that or, you know, manipulate that or how can I get away with that.
And it's not necessarily malicious.
Theory of mind is what they call it.
You know, around that age as well, you've, everyone's seen a little kid throw a tantrum of some sort.
And when the parent allows it, it's almost like the child does it more because they know that they can get what they want by doing this because it's happened in the past or whatever.
Or their parent has caved in the past or will.
Right.
So usually we grow out of this stage because we realize lying's not good.
Fibbing isn't good.
And we learn that lesson somewhere.
Or maybe we grow independent enough to realize, like, within our true selves, like a moral compass.
So we gain a moral compass, hopefully.
Yeah.
But even as adults, again, we avoid being in trouble all the time, right?
So again, but that, that avoiding punishment comes from a very young age and we still do it as adults.
We don't want to get punished or, yeah, cover something up or, yeah.
Exactly.
Or even have an argument with someone.
Someone will ask me a question that I could answer very honestly or I could tell a little white lie just to avoid an argument later.
Exactly.
Or right then and there.
I'll even ask people sometimes, like, do you want the truth or do you want me to be nice?
What do you need from me?
And I'm not trying to be mean, but, you know, like really quick, sorry, this girl the other day at the rodeo, it was these two girls sitting next to us.
They both had, both had drinks.
I think I might have told you this.
And this girl leans over and she goes, hi, I'm sorry.
Can I ask you a question?
I was like, yeah, what's up?
She goes, how old do I look?
And I was like, do you want the truth?
She's like, yeah.
And I was like, 19.
She's like, oh, shit, I'm 20.
I was like, what are you going to go try to buy alcohol?
That's only one year.
And she went down there with her empty cup that her friend had bought for her and she got two fucking drinks.
She was ballsy.
I was like, hell yeah, girl, I'm not going to tip for you.
But yeah, go ahead.
So a child who continues to lie well until their teens and about serious issues, it may be a sign that the child is experiencing a conduct or oppositional defiant disorder.
So we may also see ADHD kind of entangled with those kiddos as well.
Either way, adults lie as a way to avoid being punished by those around us.
And if you haven't, then you're a fucking liar.
Oh, no.
What was that?
Nothing.
Liar.
Nothing.
Just get lamp.
Jesus.
Shout out Brady for all the notes on our last episode.
Get lamp.
Nipple belt.
Oh my God.
So another reason that someone might lie is to obtain a reward not otherwise readily obtainable.
Okay.
Oh, I don't like when people do that shit.
So who hasn't fluffed a resume though?
I have.
Oh please.
I swear I have not.
Who hasn't fluffed, you haven't fluffed.
Because my qualifications are impressive.
I don't need to fluff my resume.
I fluff other things.
Well it's like saying, you know, I'm not a janitor.
I'm a custodial engineer.
Things like that.
Okay.
That's what I'm saying.
All right.
So that's not readily attainable, right?
Okay.
Who hasn't boasted about accomplishments around the office, right?
Even talking about their kids' successes, right?
So these are like small examples, right?
We also hear stories all the time about people lying to other people to get them into bed,
right?
That's also something that might not be readily obtainable unless you lie.
Because in some situations if you're 16 and 19 year old doesn't want to sleep with you,
but if you lie and say you're 18, not that I've done that, but just talking in general.
Wow, that was just specific.
Wow.
Then they might be more willing to sleep with you.
And I really can't stand people do that because that's like entrapment.
Oh yeah.
But the person that is young like really doesn't even realize the weight of what they're doing
and the consequences for the other person.
Right.
I just mean in general, like just in a bar setting.
You know, just like bragging about your job or like what you do and then like you realize
it's all shit after the act.
The act.
The deed.
So there are plenty of situations a person might lie in order to obtain something that
they want, especially if it means that the reward that they receive induces endorphins.
You know, lying in order to obtain sex or drugs or money, something like that.
Something that creates the endorphins.
True.
Another reason somebody might lie is to protect another person from being punished.
We see this sometimes in like false confession cases where people are willing to take the
fall.
I still think David Berkowitz didn't tell the full truth.
I think that he was covering for someone for whatever reason.
But to protect somebody, you know, another person maybe that you love, you know, you
take the fall for them or something.
That's always really hard to.
But sometimes like I'll even put my foot down and be like, I'm not going to lie for
you.
Don't bring me into this and make me lie for you because I won't.
But sometimes I will take it upon myself to do that because it's hard.
It's a situation that's difficult.
And I know everyone's probably experienced a situation like that.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I remember what comes to mind is that me and a guy friend of mine, we were tagging.
We had spray paint and he took the fall.
I mean, he was painting way more.
And when the couch showed up, he was the one with the can in his hand.
But you know, but I mean, I still carry that with me because I mean, he had to do community
service and like pay a fine and like all this stuff.
And I was like, should I have just confessed?
Yeah.
Can't do anything about it now.
You should confess.
Sorry, Matt.
Oh man.
DAK live to confession tapes.
The confession tapes.
Damn.
It's hardcore.
So to protect oneself from a threat of physical harm might be another reason.
Ooh.
That's interesting.
Which is something that, yeah, you would like one would experience in a domestic abuse
household, you would lie to that person in order to not be hit or hurt in some kind of
a way.
Or if you find yourself in immediate danger and you're like a single woman that's never
had kids, you can say like, oh, I have a family.
Like I have children.
They need me or whatever to save yourself from being hurt by someone.
Oh yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
They said that that's a tactic to use, I guess, during a shooting of some kind.
Oh, you definitely have to humanize yourself.
Yeah.
You talk about yourself.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm a very serious anatomy where Patrick Densey is about to get shot by the gunman
and Sarah Drew comes out and she's like, she starts naming like all of her sister's names
and her parents and their names and what they do.
Oh my God, it's so heartbreaking.
Yeah, April Kepner in the show.
She's such a good actress.
I really think she is.
But and then he lets her go because she humanized herself and she's literally like, that was
what I did.
She was like, I've always been told to make sure that they know that you're a person.
She's like, she literally says, I'm a person.
I'm a person.
Please don't shoot me.
Oh, I have goosebumps.
I hate that part.
I always end up watching all the way up until right around that part.
And then you got to deal with a bunch of bullshit until you get to the plane crash.
But yeah, I actually just watched the most recent episode that came out.
I'm not going to put a spoiler out there because it's I mean, it's like it's not it's not a
secret that Ellen Pompeo left the show that's been like all over the internet ever.
But it was the most recent episode that it was the first episode that she has not been
in at all.
Yeah.
Her voice is still in it, but she's not in it.
Right.
And at this point, like I love the fucking show, which is why I keep watching it.
But like, just end it.
Like you don't need it.
It's literally they're trying to build like this whole new intern class and they're trying
to make like two new characters come to the forefront.
Christina was the best.
After Sandra, oh, I stopped watching.
I'm just like, I love Sandra.
Oh, too much.
I hated Christina, but I love Sandra.
Oh, I love Christina.
Really?
Yes.
Oh God, Christina is my jam.
Anyway, sorry.
We love her.
We love Grey's Anatomy.
Kate Walsh for listening.
I fucking love you.
Oh my God.
Have you not watched Umbrella Academy yet?
No, I've watched private practice though and she's been here.
Kate Walsh is, she's the handler.
You have to watch Umbrella Academy.
I'll watch it for you, Kate.
Seriously.
Kate Walsh, ugh, she's brilliant in it.
And Aiden Gallagher's hot.
These are all truths.
I can see that because he's 19 now.
These are all truths.
This is the confession taste.
Jeez, I know.
This is my confession.
So yeah, we were talking about physical abuse before all that.
Oh God, okay.
Yeah, but lying to appease someone, right, under the threat of being abused or harmed.
So another reason one might lie is to win the admiration of others.
So this feels like a narcissistic type territory, right?
Or dependent personality disorder.
So, and they're actually right next to each other in the DSM-5.
That's interesting that this is coming up in this mental breakdown because we just did
a case where someone had dependent personality disorder and it was their first one.
That was the Susan Smith?
Yeah, it was.
So with these disorders or most personality disorders, seeking approval of others is very,
very important to people with these disorders.
Yeah, for sure.
So a number six would be to get out of an awkward social situation.
Oh, I've done that.
Me too.
Oh my God, I've done that.
I've definitely done that.
Absolutely.
To get out of awkward social situations?
Oh, yeah.
No, yeah.
Like I've had girlfriends tell me like, hey, I'm going on a date with this guy.
If it doesn't go well, I need you to call me with a fake emergency.
And I'm like, oh my God, I need you to come here right now.
I really need your help with something.
And they're like, oh my God, and they run out of the room.
I need help packing up boxes because I'm moving.
No, really, I've done that before as well.
So yeah, everyone's done it.
Or I'll pretend to be on the phone when I'm walking through a certain area because I don't
want to talk to someone or I don't want someone to try to talk to me.
That's a lie.
I'm not actually on the phone.
I feel like most social situations for me are awkward.
So it's really, it's definitely a...
Just have like all these awkward social interactions.
I don't know, I guess, I gotta go.
So yeah.
Yeah, and we've all heard that like, oh yeah, like sorry, like I gotta go like from a party,
you know?
Yeah, I had a friend in college, but she was on the bus one time on the way home and she
had her headphones in and she was texting and it was like an empty bus.
Say it was like a late night on the way back home from school and there was like no one
on the bus.
She sits down and this guy gets on and he sits down right next to her.
It's like this whole empty bus, right?
I hate that.
And so she's texting her friend and she's like, and this has nothing to do with lying,
I guess, but she's texting her friend and she's like, oh my God, this really creepy guy
just sat next to me like, please have your phone on you just in case anything happens.
And this guy leans over, pulls her headphone out of her ear and goes, I'm not creepy.
He saw her text and then he's creepily, I'm not creepy.
I would pull the, I just pull the lever and get off immediately like at the next stop,
I just be like, I gotta get out of here.
I got, I have to leave.
I have to leave.
What do you do?
I think she just like was like, oh sorry, like I'm sorry, like that was rude.
And then like she's like caught up with the next stop.
Oh my gosh, it's so funny.
I forgot about that.
That's awkward.
I was like texting someone to get out of it, that's an awkward situation, right?
So texting someone to-
It's weird being in New York and being on the subways because everybody is so into their
phone because nobody wants to like make eye contact with anybody.
If you make eye contact with someone, it's weird.
It's weird.
It's scary.
You should not make eye contact with people on a New York subway for sure.
I mean, if you're from New York, you're probably more like desensitized to it, but when we
went, it was a big culture shock because like I'm the kind of person that just talks to
people when we're waiting in line for like to order food.
And I tried to do that like at least twice and they just gave me the weirdest look like
I was crazy or something.
I'm like, well-
What's that thing that you say?
You said like something about kind or people in the South are kind but not nice or something?
People, I say, well, this is not really true everywhere, but I say like people in the South
are nice but they're not kind.
Like they'll wave to you when you walk by, but they'll ignore you if you need help.
People in the North are not nice, but they are kind.
Like they'll change your tire for you, but they won't like wave to you or like smile
at you when they're walking by.
And that's just what I've seen in my own opinion.
It was definitely like warming up to the people, you know?
Because I mean, as soon as we walked in that first bar, it was like talking to the bartender
and he was like, oh, yo, what can I get you?
Like whatever.
And we were just like, oh, like, da, da, da, da, da, da.
And then I think you were like, is there a good place to eat around here?
AKA like we're tourists.
And he was like, oh, where are you all from?
And then you know-
He was like the nicest fucking dude.
And he was like, oh, I'm from Louisiana.
Like that's so close, you know, or whatever.
Yeah, he definitely had like leaned into the culture of New York because again, like he
wasn't immediately like, hey guys, how's it going?
Welcome to the Moon.
We were like the only ones in there at the bar top.
So like he wasn't like, yeah, welcome in.
Like what can I get for you?
Like chatty chatty.
But as soon as we tried to like actually have a conversation, he was like, the fucking
coolest dude.
I think the people at the Speakeasy were probably the most welcoming.
Yeah.
But even then it was more, it was very customer service.
Yeah.
Nice.
Like I made kick ass drinks.
Oh my God.
Every drink was good.
And I don't even like half the liquors that they were made with, but every drink was good.
He was hot too.
I disagree.
Sorry dude from New York.
All right, where were we?
To avoid a bear, to avoid embarrassment.
I just had a thing happen.
It spazzed him in my mouth.
I didn't lie.
I mean, that makes sense.
You shit your pants.
You lie about it.
You know, I mean, oh man, I'm not that bitch.
I'm like, I shit my pants.
I just started.
I left my underwear in the trash.
I'm like, I'm not that bitch.
My underwear in the trash can, oh I've done that many, many a time.
Sorry, I'm only I'm only referencing you when I say that you throw your underwear in the
trash.
I have lost many, a good pair of underwear.
It's like cannot contain control of my balance when I'm drinking.
No, that's not gonna shit myself every time I get drunk doesn't happen.
I think I've actually shit myself more times sober.
Oh, God, I like these because they're not as serious as the cases and we can just like...
Yeah.
So clearly that's acceptable, right?
Lie about shitting in your pants.
Some might agree, some might not.
So another reason one might lie is to maintain privacy without notifying others of that intention.
So like essentially it would be maybe you're telling a story or something, right?
And you're just like to remain anonymous, this person or whatever, or use a different
person or a different situation potentially.
Yeah.
To maintain privacy.
Okay.
I would say like sometimes like I, someone's asked me for my phone number that I didn't
want and I've given them a false phone number because I don't want to be rude.
But I don't want them to have my number.
Exactly.
To maintain privacy without notifying others.
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So the last one we're going to talk about is to exercise power over others by controlling
the information that the target has.
Oh, that's so manipulative.
Like I'm only going to tell you what I want to tell you to maintain control over this
entire narrative, right?
I know people like that.
So to me, again, another textbook narcissist tendency, maintaining control over someone
by using information or manipulating information, huge red flag, I think we can all agree that
there are varying levels in which a person can lie.
Some may be socially acceptable and some maybe can be argued over.
There's some people out there that say any one of those reasons, nope, should never lie.
But we're sitting here giggling because we're like, oh, totally, like this lie or that lie
or whatever.
And so what is socially acceptable and what's not?
Yeah, you know.
It's true.
I think people will say a couple of those things like lying in order to prevent yourself
from getting hurt.
That's acceptable to me at least.
But lying by omission and lying to manipulate someone else, I would not do that.
And I hate when people do that to me because it's been done to me.
And it's been done to probably everybody that I know.
It's just, unfortunately, it's very common.
And sometimes people don't even realize that they're doing that.
It's just so normal to them to narrate the story their way that they don't even realize
how toxic it is.
It is.
I believe, yeah, that it can be a toxic trait.
And I definitely think, I mean, we did talk about this at one point that somewhere along
the way maybe that lying served you because you were afraid of punishment or a domestic
situation.
But when you're talking to someone that you care about, that skill shouldn't serve you
any longer.
And so there are tools to, we'll talk about that later.
But so let's talk about some ways that you may or may not be able to recognize when somebody
is lying to you.
Or just maybe not necessarily that they're lying to you, but that there's uncomfortableness
or stress around the situation, right?
Around the conversation.
So blink rate.
Many people talk about blink rate.
It may have a direct correlation in lying.
Someone who is lying may blink more often within a certain amount of time or sentences
because of the stress that the individual is experiencing is very high.
So you'll blink more often when the stress is high.
I'm blinking a lot right now.
No, I'm thinking about it.
I know, right?
Well, I get to one that I absolutely do.
So a good way to start a conversation with someone is to establish a baseline of that
person.
And you can do that by asking simple questions like, what's your favorite color, your dog's
name, where you went to high school, things like that.
You can usually gauge a person's baseline from these questions if they're being truthful
in the first place.
And then through that, you can ask more stressful questions.
It's the same thing with a polygraph.
I was just going to say it sounds like the same kind of approach as a polygraph.
Right, yeah.
So you get that baseline and it's just even and you can kind of gauge after that when
you start asking stressful questions what their tells are.
Yeah.
It's very interesting stuff.
So breathing can also be a good indicator that someone is lying too rapidly without context
or too shallow without the correct context.
A lot of times when people are not being truthful or being deceitful in some way, they don't
breathe from their abdomen.
They breathe through their chest.
So it elevates.
And it's because all of everything else in your body is getting so tense.
Your body is essentially in this like fight or flight mode.
And so like a lot of things happen when you begin lying or especially if you're put in
a stressful situation, your blood will start flowing more.
So again, like when someone gets angry, right, their face may initially be red, but you've
ever been in a really big argument with someone?
Eventually their face goes pale because all of the blood is being pushed through the body
so quickly.
So same thing with the breathing, right?
It's all up here.
It's all, I'm getting ready to, I'm getting ready to, you know, run or fight or something.
So that's why the chest, right?
I didn't know that one.
It's really interesting.
So this one, the guys always talk about it on behavior panel, but they call it the Dupers
Delight.
The Delight comes from deceiving someone.
So it's kind of like a grandiose story or maybe the ability to manipulate somebody.
And it usually is in the fashion of dropping the jaw with a smirk.
Like, oh my God, that like gives me the fucking thieves.
I cannot stand up.
I just, yeah, I just modeled it.
But it's, they call it the Dupers Delight because they're, they want you to feed it.
You know, they're eating up your, the interaction, right?
The attention.
You're believing it.
I know, right?
I fucking hate that shit.
It's like, why do people drool?
I definitely know at least one or two people that do that regularly and it is haunting
and I hate it.
I'm stopped doing it.
Now that I know, I'm stopped doing it forever.
Stop doing it forever.
Now that I know like what that is, I'm never, I'm always going to see it.
Like I'm never going to unsee it.
When I was watching that Richard Ramirez one, he definitely did it at least once.
Like when he was talking about like, you know, how scary he is or whatever.
And he was like, waiting for you to react.
A really good example and I hope Movication Guys are listening to this because Brady had
touched on a hatchet wielding hitchhiker and Kai does it all of the time.
The hatchet wielding hitchhiker guy.
You know that story?
Smash, smash, smash.
No?
Okay.
Can't tell you.
Well, you're going to have to look at it after this.
But in his interviews, he does that.
Dupers delight a lot.
And they're, even the guys are talking about how he's originally from like Canada, but
he talks with this like, you know, California accent.
He's like, I'm from Dogtown.
Like and he makes this face and it's everything he says.
Like he's just feeding you bullshit.
It's, it's, it's seriously one of the ones that I'm going to take with me for the rest
of forever.
It's also one of those things where it's like, you say something that is a lie about someone
else and then it's like that face.
Like, can you believe that?
Like, yeah, exactly.
Like, can you believe that she said that?
Yeah.
Like that thing, I just did it again in the microphone.
I mean, you can't see it.
Well, you can't see it, but I think maybe, you know, listeners, if, if you were to do
that, right?
Like imagine that Valley Girl, like, oh my God, can you believe she said that?
Like that same tone and inflection, that is exactly what Dupers delight looks like.
That's so gross.
Terrifying.
Poster, of course, can be a big indicator of whether or not somebody is lying.
More specifically, if one is covering one's neck with their hands, because all of this
right here, I'm not all of it, everything, everything here in your neck is vital.
It's all vital stuff, right?
So if you're talking to somebody and they're rubbing their neck, right?
Or if they have their hands in their laps, like covering their genitals, typically, or
they're just being depressed and it's like instinct to cover your, like to protect yourself.
Exactly.
And it may be a sign, and don't get me wrong here, it may be a sign of someone who has
been victimized in the past, but it can also allude to kind of this kind of cowardice, like,
oh shit, like I'm being confronted at this point.
And I mean, I'm just sure that you're going to say this, and you already have said this,
but of course, these are all the generalize.
This is not like, if someone does this, they're fucking lying.
They're fucking lying.
No, it's, it's, and it's not even that they're lying.
It's just that, it's just signs of stress, essentially.
Yeah.
I mean, sometimes, if someone is trying to tell, like I told you one time, one of the
biggest things that pisses me off is when someone tells me I'm lying when I'm not, because
that really holds a lot of weight with me.
But when someone tries to accuse me of lying and I know I'm not, I still do some of these
things.
So it looks like I'm guilty, but I'm just super uncomfortable.
I'm like, oh my God, please fucking listen to me.
Yeah.
Like, you're not hearing me.
Right.
And it looks deceitful.
I'm just fucking overwhelmed.
You know, there's, for every net, what would be perceived negative behavior, there's other
positive behaviors that one can look at during that to that stressful moment to say, okay,
this person is being genuine, like talking with your hands open with your palms up.
This is, I hope that you're, it depends on how close your hands are.
If your hands are essentially touching and doing like, and gesturing with the palms open,
trying to describe it, this can be eat my shit, like, you know, I'm feeding you this.
If you were to use that same motion, but spread your arms out, you know, almost like, you
know, you're like a W.
Yeah.
Like a W. And you're pleading in a manner towards somebody with your palms up.
It expresses openness.
Yeah.
So this is like, I'm telling, this is all I have to give you, you know, kind of a thing.
Yeah.
I do that too.
I do that worldwide international sign, like showing your palms as a sign of like, you
can trust me.
Like, I'm not, yeah, like a surrender.
Yeah.
Like you can see my palms.
I'm not a threat.
Right.
You know, which is interesting that like, it kind of translates through to lying as
well.
I was talking to Cody and Cody said I could use his name.
So I'm going to talk about Cody.
Cody was talking to me last night about, we were talking about body language and stuff.
And so I tried to tell him, I was like, you know, the way that you speak with your hands
up or your shoulders up, it's a very genuine expression.
And he's very expressive.
You've seen Cody talk.
He's very expressive with his hands.
And but to me, that just registers as genuine.
It just, there's nothing to me threatening about him, you know, in any way.
But I like that about him.
I like that he is an expressive person because it means that I can just take him at face
value and then I can evaluate whether or not I want to hang out with this guy or whatever.
You know, and it's interesting, like the different dynamics of the way people act, because you
know me, like I'm a very like friendly person.
I smile at everyone.
I talk to everyone like no one's a stranger, you know, kind of that vibe.
But some people do perceive that as a threat.
Yeah.
Instead of like, oh, they seem genuine.
They seem open.
People have been like other women have been threatened by me in the past because I'm so
comfortable and vulnerable and open for sure.
And I didn't even fucking do anything.
Yeah.
I was that lady at the bar the other day.
Oh my gosh, that lady last night that I was at the bar and her friend was puking in the
corner and she turned and I said, she was like, Jen, Jen.
And I was like, Oh no, not Jen.
Haha.
Like as a joke.
And she goes, okay.
And then she like turned her friend.
She's like, are you okay?
Well, well, and then she came and sat right next to me.
And then she was like, who the fuck are you?
And I was like, who the fuck are you?
Yeah.
And I said, I'm Koelle.
Nice to meet you.
It's nice to meet you.
And she's like, blah, blah.
And I was like, my gosh, maybe feel so uncomfortable.
Right.
And then like, I was just fucking hanging out the other day and this lady pulls me into
the bathroom and is like, I'm not going to hurt you.
Let's go outside and have a conversation.
I was like, why would you lead with I'm not going to hurt you?
Her palms were not facing up.
And I literally didn't do anything.
She's like the people you're hanging out with are sketchy.
I'm like, then talk to them.
Don't talk to me.
Exactly.
That was her baseline.
I was wild.
She's at a 100 all the time.
That was wild, man.
So I'm guilty of this all the time.
And it's definitely a subconscious thing for sure.
Tongue jutting or thrusting.
No, not like that.
Gross.
Don't ever do that again.
OK.
So how's that?
Or like, when you stick out your tongue and you're almost like licking your lips for
like a hot second.
Yeah, you look like a lizard now.
OK, so explain.
But it can be a sign of someone hearing what they don't want to hear.
Really?
So it's like a subconscious thing.
And where it comes from is when you were little, little babies and you were learning
to be weaned, honestly, where it was the rejection, tongue rejection.
So we do it as adults as well.
And it's again, not always a sign of somebody lying.
This is a sign of stress, something that I don't want to hear.
Like just did it again.
It's just it's such a small, subtle thing.
But when you're talking to somebody, you can kind of tell.
And it's usually when, again, when you're speaking to someone and they're listening
to you.
So it's not like they're lying, they're sticking out their tongue.
It's when they're listening to you and they don't like what you're saying.
Yeah.
OK, I gotcha.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Pretty interesting.
Like a bad taste in your mouth comes from it.
Exactly, like a bad taste in your mouth.
So another sign that someone might be fibbing or lying to you or is in a very stressful
conversation is the loss of verbal fluidity.
So this can be a disruption in the thought process, but it can also be a sign of tripping
up on what you want to say versus what you should say.
So I know you want me to say this.
I'm not going to say that.
I'm going to redirect and go and stutter for a second and then think about it and then
redirect and then finish my sentence.
Or it's when someone annunciates like, I cannot tell you anything different, OK?
I'm telling you the truth.
Like that annunciation, it's like, are you?
Are you though?
Why would you be taking so long?
Because you're trying to think of what to say next.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Or don't raise your voice at me.
Yeah.
I love that.
I try not to do that anymore.
OK, first of all, don't raise your voice at me.
Oh my God.
No, I hate you.
Hey, give me a second to think about what I'm going to say next.
Yeah, no, for real.
And obviously, it's apparent that neither one of us really like conflict very much.
So it just makes me so uncomfy when people do that.
But then again, I've fucking done it.
So some lawyers like to create value to what they say in order to keep you appreciative
or engaged in what they're trying to accomplish by their lying.
Yep.
That's crazy, right?
It is crazy.
And it's like, OK, let me give you a little bit of the truth so that you trust me.
I will relate it to maybe you and I if I'm talking about someone else.
And then the next thing I tell you is going to be a lie, but you won't even think about
it because I've already been trusting with you at the beginning with the information.
Or on the flip of that, let me lie about something that's way smaller than what you're accusing
me of.
Because then if I admit to at least this much, it gives you satisfaction because you know
that I'm lying, but then I'm the victim.
Because yes, I did that and I admitted to that.
Fucking Alec Murdoch was doing that in his trial with the one that killed his wife and
his son or has been convicted of.
He would say something like, yes, I did lie to the police about that, but I wouldn't lie
about this though because I'm admitting and I'm putting everything on the table for you
to-
So why would I lie?
Because I'm already admitting to these awful things.
Yeah.
And that's one awful thing.
Yeah.
But then you're creating value because you're like, the person is now becoming invested
into what you're saying.
But it's again, it's lying by omission.
You're saying, you're right, like I'm going to lie about, I'm going to tell you that I
was lying about this one thing so that now in turn you think that I'm not lying anymore.
Sure.
Yeah.
Or you know, you're going through problems in a relationship and someone says, okay,
I'm going to go to therapy, right?
They go to therapy for like a week or two and then they don't anymore.
It's a band aid.
I want you to be invested.
I messed up because of these reasons that I have.
Give me patience and time.
You know, but they're lies.
They're fucking lies.
It's like, I went to therapy.
What more do you want from me?
Yeah.
No, you went for two sessions.
Right.
So eye blocking, that's pretty self-explanatory.
I think we all know when people aren't looking you in the eyes or they redirect their eyes,
especially their gazes when they look down and left.
Yeah, down and left or up and right.
Yes, exactly.
So what you want out of a conversation would be strong, positive, confident denials.
So these are like kind of good things.
Watch out for weak comments or non-direct answers.
People who are solid in what they're saying will hit you with these strong, confident
denials.
So another thing is called, I love this word.
Serality, meaning, and a lot of it is something that you would see in like, mathematic equations
and stuff.
It's essentially mirror matching.
So it's a mirror image of something.
And a lot of people that tend to manipulate other people want to show you, you.
It's mimicry.
So use that you accuse me of being jealous, I accuse you of being jealous.
The best way that the guys put it is, you're not looking for a wolf in sheep's clothing,
you're looking for a wolf in your clothing.
Does that make more sense?
Kind of.
It's like someone that is the non-manipulator or the person who is trying to express their
feelings, expresses a specific feeling and then in turn the person that is lying or manipulating
is like, well, I feel that way too about you.
So it's like, I am not going to hear or acknowledge your feelings because I have the same feelings
that might have been more important.
Even though they don't, they're just trying to turn around on you.
And I have absolutely met people like that.
And it's very frustrating.
Like I have frustration around the fact that you don't receive my feelings in a very specific
way or whatever.
And they're like, well, you don't receive my feelings in a very specific way either.
Or use it against you and say, well, I thought we had a conversation about this and you're
not respecting my feelings later.
You know what I mean?
And I'm just saying what you said because that's what you said.
Exactly.
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
So when does lying become pathological?
So the behavior is persistent, pervasive, often compulsive patterns of excessive lying
behavior that leads to clinically significant impairment of function in social, occupational,
or other areas, causes marked distress, poses a risk to self or others, and occurs for longer
than six months.
So that's all according to Wiki, right?
Love Wiki.
So although that pathological lying isn't a diagnosable disorder, it is listed in the
DSM-5 under almost every personality disorder, such as narcissistic personality disorder,
antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, and histrionic personality
disorder.
Yeah, I was going to say it's definitely a symptom of a disorder.
It's not like a disorder itself, but you're right.
And the narcissistic thing completely makes sense with narcissistic personality disorder,
antisocial, things like that, I would even go as far to say as dependent personality
disorder because people with that disorder may lie about things in order to maintain
relationships or they may avoid confrontation, which is what we know to be true about that
disorder, and lie to others about that confrontation to make themselves seem right in the situation,
instead of actually acknowledging the original problem and the person's feelings that they
hurt originally.
And the same thing with narcissistic personality disorder, it's talk about that reward, right?
People with narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder have a habit of inflating themselves,
having these grandiose ideas, grandiose sense of self, and this image is very, very important
and to maintain that image.
I mean, there's lying, there's lying, there's lying, there's lying.
Yeah, Jose Menendez.
Yeah, Jose Menendez, Scott Peterson.
To maintain this image, I mean, even with Amber Fry, the woman that Scott was having
an affair with, covering that whole relationship up, I mean, he was at Lacey's vigil, calling
her saying that he was in Paris on New Year's Eve, like, what?
Yeah, it's definitely supported.
That's a lot, that's a lot.
That's really interesting, I think it's definitely worth knowing things like that, especially
for the general public, you know, if you're in a sticky situation with someone, if you
will, kind of not necessarily using that information to call people out, but at least
to just know and get some clarity for yourself that your feelings are valid and if someone
is doing something like this to you, it doesn't mean that you've done anything wrong.
And honestly, even being able to just spot and recognize that they are lying to you
might give you more clarity into the type of relationship that you want to maintain
or not maintain with that person, right?
So definitely don't want to use this knowledge as like a weapon.
No.
Or to be like, you're lying, I can tell because you did this, but.
Because diagnosing a killer said so.
Right, but just to be able to, again, make that choice for yourself, make that assumption
for yourself and then use that information to better your life and move forward without
those relationships if it gets to that point.
Yeah, I think also it's just a communication skill.
If you are in a relationship and you know, and you love your partner and you trust your
partner, some of these tools might just help you be very aware of how uncomfortable they
are.
Yeah.
And you can meet it.
It doesn't have to be, oh, you're lying about it.
It's just like, okay, clearly this direction we're going is stressing you the fuck out.
Maybe we need to go another route in order to get the information I want, you know, in
order to make a better decision about the way the conversation goes or whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
That was a really good episode.
I really liked that topic.
It was definitely not what I was expecting.
Yeah.
It was interesting, you know, especially since talking about personality disorders lately,
I feel like, you know, this is a symptom.
Like you said, this is a symptom of, potentially a symptom of something bigger with a personality
disorder.
So yeah.
I like the education portion of this.
And again, what we like to kind of teach in these, I guess if you will, is just life
experience, you know, like just learning different things that you don't learn in school unless
you take a specific course that's going to go through that lesson and stuff.
But that was a great topic.
Thanks for bringing it.
Bringing it.
You guys can follow us on social media at diagnosing a killer.
Twitter is at killer diagnosis.
We got our new stickers and we got our new business cards, which have the QR code now
linked to our Instagram account rather than our RSS feed.
And those are amazing.
And I'm really excited about them.
You I gave, I gave one to J. Well, not a sticker, but a thing.
I gave one to J. Well, I gave one to J, JD and Cody.
Oh, they all have the little business cards, which is cool about the business cards because
they do have a QR code on them.
Yeah, necessarily have to pass it out to anybody, but you can just have people scan
it, which is really cool.
Yeah, absolutely.
And now included in our Patreon, we have included tiers rather than just a regular random bid
of your choosing.
We do have three different membership tiers.
I did want to quickly go over those.
The $5 a month membership tier is called the pod lovers members of this tier will receive
a diagnosing a killer sticker anytime we get new ones, as well as a shout out on our latest
episode for being coming a patron.
They will also receive a new goodie every time we order, whether that be again, a business
card, maybe a mug, a t-shirt, things of that.
When they do, when we do get new merch.
The mental breakdown team is our second tier that is for $10 a month.
Members of this tier will receive any new merchandise when purchased as well.
Again, a shout out on the latest episode.
Members will also have first dibs on requests for mental breakdowns or cases.
If they send us a request, they're in part of this tier.
They will have first dibs on us doing those cases.
And they will also get a tag on our Instagram post for that episode.
So they'll have a shout out on the Instagram as well.
And then lastly, our final tier, the diagnoses.
It's going to be a $20 a month tier.
Again, members of this tier will receive everything that the other tier has received,
as well as having access to actually ad free episodes each week only available to this
tier that will be available to be listened to on the Patreon website.
And it'll come out at midnight the day of the rest of it, but it will be ad free completely.
So that's a little perk of doing the $20 a month that you'll have ad free.
I'm sure people have noticed we started doing ads and that will be an ad free episode for
you guys if you are just for members of that tier.
So just wanted to kind of write that pepper that in there because that is something new
that we've just implicated.
Do you have anything else?
No, I'm good.
That wasn't good.
You guys, be honest, don't lie.
Okay.
Unless it's to save someone else from being hurt or you shake your pants.
That's signing off.
All right.
Love you.
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