Hello!
How's everybody doing?
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, the mental breakdown.
The mental breakdown.
My name is Kenna.
I'm Koelle.
I am excited to hear what you have to say for the mental breakdown.
Yeah, this is going to be something way different than we've done before.
We always say that.
But it is.
And I said it in the last case, I think, that I was going to do something different.
This is going to be...
Excuse me.
This is going to be a great start.
We just ate a big dinner, and so I'm really full, and I think that's what's happening.
I don't know how to burp, like I've told you guys before, but I get these things of air
that make noise.
Little pockets.
I think everybody gets that.
But, yeah.
Anyway, and this microphone picks up literally everything.
It does.
Sometimes, I don't think that y'all can hear exactly what we're hearing in the moment,
just because everything's turned up on our end.
I noticed in the episode that we did at Gilbert Jordan, there's two different times where
you can hear Koda's collar.
He shakes his head, our cat.
We have four cats in this house.
We used to have five, but they all have bells in their collar so we can hear them coming.
And he shook, I guess, so you can hear it twice in the background.
They all sound different too, which is funny, because I'm pretty sure they're essentially
all the same bells, but I think it's just depending on who's walking and shaking their
head.
Yeah, because we have, just to let everyone know, if y'all are cat people, we have Koda.
He is a black tabby, or he's like a Tomcat almost.
He's an all-black cat, he's huge.
He is huge, and he's probably the oldest cat that we have.
He's 12, I think.
Actually Zelda's older.
Oh, okay.
Well, he doesn't act like he's any older.
And then Zelda, tell me again how they're related.
Zelda's mother's daughter's litter is Koda.
Okay, so Koda and Zelda are kind of from the same lineage.
She is an all-grey cat, and she's real cute.
She's not fat, but she's really fluffy.
She's not fat.
She's really not fat.
She has a lot of hair.
In fact, she's relatively thin just because she's older, but she has tons of hair, and
it's wiry all over the place.
Do you remember, do you know that cat on TikTok that's like, meh, Bobby?
Yeah, Bobby cat?
Yeah.
Yeah, she looks like Isma when Isma gets turned into a cat, and she kind of acts like her
Christian meow.
She's like old ladies on this.
She's crotchety.
And then we have Seamus O'Neill, and he is a little, tiny, dittie, orange cat.
He is a forever kitten.
He's really small, but he's a full-grown cat.
He's almost two years old.
And then we have his brother, who is not really his brother, but we foster failed both of
them.
We fostered them at the same time.
That is my baby.
His name is Jose McGregor, because he is also orange, but he is orange and white, and Seamus
is more just like orange.
He is like twice the size of Seamus, even though they're the same age.
I looked up orange cats, like when they have those little black spots, like on their nose
or like maybe on their paws, because I was like, oh no, is that like a skin condition
or something?
No, I googled it.
It's orange cat freckles.
Oh, they have freckles.
Isn't that cute?
That is cute.
So when you look at Seamus' nose, he has like three or four little freckles right on the
tip of his nose.
I love it.
Isn't that cute?
We have to post pictures for you guys too, because we did the, we told everyone about
our finger tattoos and the last mental breakdown, and then I posted a photo of it.
So maybe we'll have to post photos of the babies.
The babies.
If you're not a cat person, then I'm sorry, but you're probably going to see pictures
of our cats and just deal with it.
Okay.
No dogs here.
We used to have dogs, but we don't anymore.
We were fortunate on the dogs that we did have.
We were.
They were great.
All right.
Well, let's get into this case.
Oh, not even a case.
I mean, it kind of is.
So, okay, like I said, I'm doing something a little bit different.
This time it's going to be true crime meets mental breakdown.
Okay.
So what we did get a case suggestion I mentioned recently, and this listener wanted us to do
Casey Anthony.
So I thought about it and I would love, I've heard the case.
Obviously, we all probably know a little bit about the case.
But because she was never convicted, she is not technically a killer in the eyes of the
law.
So it wouldn't make sense for us to do an episode on her, like a full episode.
So what I decided to do was do a mental breakdown, non guilty verdicts.
So I have three cases where they're all very famous.
The verdict was not guilty.
So I'm going to briefly go through each of those three cases and we're going to discuss
none of these people have been diagnosed, but we'll discuss things that they are suspected
of maybe being meeting the requirements for.
Okay.
And then we'll just kind of talk about the facts.
This is different.
I like this.
Very different.
I personally am going to try to steer clear of opinions.
I just want to present the facts.
And I'm nothing but opinions.
That is my life as opinions.
We will just present.
I will present the facts and we will have a conversation.
I don't know exactly how it's going to go, but we will get started.
So of course, the first one I'm going to talk about is the case of Casey Anthony and Kaylee
Anthony.
So Casey Anthony was born on March 19th, 1986 in Warren, Ohio to Cindy and George Anthony.
Casey as a child was known as a bright personable young girl with a lot of friends and many
people were under the impression that she came from an all-American family that was
very put together and very nice at home.
Was that not the case?
Well, some friends in high school would actually say that Casey developed a bit of a habit
of lying.
Okay.
And it began to affect some relationships like friendships with her parents, yada yada.
At her high school graduation, in fact, Cindy and George arrived along with Casey's grandparents
to watch their daughter gain her diploma only to discover that she was several credits short
of graduating.
Casey had actually stopped attending school earlier in the year, but led her family to
believe that she would be graduating that day.
Oh my gosh.
They show up.
So they would know that.
Expecting her to be graduating.
She's like, oh, by the way, not the ceremony.
Yeah, the reason that I'm not in this ceremony is because my ceremony already happened.
You missed it.
Yeah, exactly.
You guys weren't even there.
Thanks.
Now, when she turned 19, Cindy noticed that Casey had been gaining weight in specific
places and she began to think that her daughter might be pregnant.
Okay.
She denied this, but it wouldn't be until months later and months into her pregnancy
that she would come clean to her parents, although she was not certain who the father
of the child was.
Oh my.
So she lied about being pregnant, even though she was confronted about being pregnant.
Yes.
She would say that the father was one of two people.
It could either be a young man that she had previously been in a relationship with that
actually ultimately died in a car accident previous to this, but within enough time for
him to possibly be the father as well as her fiance at the time, he could also be the
dad.
She was engaged.
Yeah.
And I like the way that I set this up because it's not as detailed as our normal cases because
it's a really short snippet of the case.
It's just nothing but punch lines.
Exactly.
I did that on purpose.
That's awesome.
Because if I didn't do that, it would be like a four hour episode because it would be three
full cases.
It's so true because we get so deep and dark or like, okay, it seems like they're doing
better and then punchline.
But this is just one after the other.
So on August 9th, 2005, Casey would welcome her daughter, Kaylee Anthony, to the world.
A friend of Casey's actually said that she had debated on giving Kaylee up for adoption
at one point, but ultimately decided to keep her.
She still engaged to the guy?
Yes.
Now Kaylee.
Now, Casey and Kaylee would live with Cindy and George, Casey's parents, and her fiance
would act as the father, although it was never confirmed that he was.
A DNA test would later determine that he was not the father.
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Mary, Mary.
It's the same thing.
They did the same thing on each other.
Do they do DNA tests on Jerry?
Oh yeah.
Oh.
Either way.
I watched junk TV like that in a very, very long time.
Kaylee's true father would actually never be found out.
Really?
To this day.
Unless it was somewhere that I couldn't find, but I looked.
Well, I guess they could have tested the family members of the young man that passed away,
and they would have known.
Yeah.
That's not.
As far as I could see, I'm not sure actually.
As far as I could see, I just couldn't find it.
It might be known like today, but as far as all of this happens, it wasn't known.
It would kind of make sense if she did try to keep the pregnancy kind of under wraps
if it was him, just because of the emotional...
That's true.
She would have to do some stuff with the family, and then she would have to be involved with
the family because of course they would want to be there for their grandchild or their
niece or nephew or whatever.
That's a lot of pressure.
For sure.
You should absolutely not lie about being pregnant though, especially if you're married
to someone.
And you're showing.
Well, you're not married, but you know.
Well, engage Jesus.
Or even in a relationship.
Don't lie about being pregnant.
I take what I said.
Do you hear me birthing people?
Don't lie about anything.
Now, in mid-June 2008, an argument ensued between Casey and Cindy about Casey's suitability
as a mother.
Not sure exactly what happened, but because of this argument, Casey decided to leave the
home with her now two-year-old daughter in a fit of anger the same day.
And I know I said 2008, this is before her birthday, so she would still be two at this
point.
Okay.
Over the next several weeks, Casey's still not staying at the home.
She had seemingly just ran off and lived somewhere else with her daughter.
Cindy would call Casey to check on Kaylee, and each time she called Casey, Casey told
her that Kaylee was with the babysitter.
So she wasn't able to come see her or anything like that.
Every time she would call and check, I asked, Hey, how's Kaylee doing?
Oh, she's with the babysitter.
But they don't know where she's living.
She might not even have a place of her own.
Exactly.
Couch surfing.
And I didn't say this, but I'm pretty sure at this point, her and their fiance are no
longer together.
I don't think he's even in Kaylee's life at this point.
Okay.
So on July 13th, 2008, Cindy and George received a letter saying that Casey's car was in a
tow yard, assuming that they probably had ownership of the car, or at least were on
the lease.
That's probably why they got that.
That makes sense.
Or it was the last known address.
Yeah, exactly.
When George went to pick up the car, he found Casey's purse inside, along with Kaylee's
car seat and toys in the back seat.
So she's with Kaylee somewhere.
Why doesn't she have her car seat with her?
Especially if maybe she's in a different car or whatever.
Why would her car seat still be in there?
That makes sense.
He also noticed a strong odor that he could not identify coming from the trunk of the
car.
I guess they had looked in there to see if there was anything else that they wanted to
take, whatever.
Now the parents went looking for Casey, and they found her at her boyfriend's house.
Okay, so not the fiance.
Okay, different guy.
Okay.
And I didn't put his name in here because it's not important.
They picked her up from the boyfriend's house and they took her with them back to their
home so that they could have a family conversation with her boyfriend.
When asked where Kaylee was, Casey broke down and told everybody that she had left Kaylee
with the nanny on June 16th and that she had ultimately kidnapped Kaylee.
And what day is this?
This is July 13th.
Okay.
So it's been a hot minute.
In June this happened.
So why did you not report her missing or kidnapped?
For like almost a month.
Yeah.
On July 15th, so this is two days later, Cindy reported Kaylee Anthony missing.
So the mom reported?
The mom did.
Not the mother, but the grandmother reported the baby missing.
Two days after she found out as well.
Two days after this lie was told that the baby was taken.
I don't know why I just kind of like flew over that that you had said that two days
later.
Yeah, that's wild.
Now, of course, Casey gets questioned by detectives.
Well, of course.
I mean, it's your baby.
After questioning Casey, detectives found discrepancies and assigned statements she
made about Kaylee's disappearance.
On top of this, her friends and family had never heard the name of the nanny to whom
to which she was referring.
So no one recognized the nanny, the nanny, the nanny, the nanny and never said like her
name's Guterred or something.
Yeah, no one recognized her name.
Her name's Gunter.
So detectives also caught Casey and other lies when it came to where she worked.
I didn't really go into this, but allegedly she was saying that she worked in some place
that she actually didn't.
And there was no record of her working there.
She was subsequently arrested on July 16th, 2008, the day after Kaylee was reported missing
by her grandmother.
Mind you.
While awaiting trial, insight about Casey's life in the days leading up to Kaylee being
reported missing surfaced.
It is known that she was partying quite a bit.
And she also got a tattoo that stated, quote, Bella Vita or beautiful life in Italian.
Mm-hmm.
But your child's missing.
Yes.
And is that referring to like she had a beautiful life?
Or is it just like my life is beautiful?
Now my life is beautiful.
Or did Kaylee have a beautiful life?
That's what I was thinking.
Yeah.
You know?
I think it just sounds like it's a beautiful life.
Yeah.
I don't know.
It also sounds very cliche too, so it could just be that.
True.
I might have just been like, I don't know, I want a tattoo with that one.
But either way, like according to her, her child isn't missing for over a month.
You're just gonna go get a fucking tattoo.
It's true.
I always think that I want to get tattoos, but especially when I'm like going through
something, the last thing I think about is getting a tattoo, honestly.
Exactly.
Especially if your child is missing.
Like that's something that I've never experienced.
Yeah.
Other than one time he was hiding from me in the bathroom and I couldn't find him and
I freaked out.
I was like, I freaked out.
Well, because it was around the time where he was like, he was walking and he was kind
of talking and yeah.
We have a pool in the back yard.
Yeah.
That's cause for concern as well.
All of our kids are water safe, but it takes time to learn how to swim.
Yeah.
And he was like three, I think.
And he would say, yeah mom or something like that whenever I call his name, but me going
around the house and calling his name over and over and for him not to respond was very
unusual.
Wasn't he laughing in the bathroom when he opened the door?
He was cowering kind of behind the toilet and I was like, that's gross.
I said, you call, like you let mom know where you are.
You know, I was scared and he's like, oh, I'm sorry.
He just thought it was funny.
But even in that moment I wasn't thinking, I wonder what tattoo I'm going to get.
Yeah, exactly.
Now Casey would return home on August 21st.
On August 21st, 2008, when her $500,000 bail was posted by Bounty Hunter slash reality
TV figure Leonard Padilla.
Oh, I thought you were going to say dog the bounty hunter.
No, that's hilarious.
Now Leonard later stated that he hoped this act of kindness, aka bailing her out, would
give Casey incentive to tell him more information about the disappearance.
But she wouldn't say anything about it.
Yeah, of course not.
Because he just wasted $500,000.
Damn it.
Now Casey was actually back in jail only eight days after being bailed out, this time charged
with forging checks and identity theft.
Wait, what?
That is okay.
Is that news to you?
Because that was news to me.
Yeah, that's news to me for sure.
I did not know that at all.
Now on December 11th, 2008, human remains were found in a plastic bag in a wooded area
near Casey Anthony's home.
On December 19th, the remains were unfortunately identified as being Kaylee Anthony's.
I know.
Especially since she was so close to home.
With prosecutors seeking the death penalty, the trial of Casey Anthony began in June of
2011, three years after the disappearance of Kaylee.
The prosecution painted Casey as a party girl that was unconcerned for her missing daughter
and responsible for her murder.
The defense told a very different story.
They suggested that Kaylee had actually drowned accidentally in the family's pool on June
16th, 2008, the day she was reported missing.
And George Anthony, Casey's dad, had covered up the death so that Casey would not be charged
with neglect.
They also tried to suggest that Casey had been sexually abused at the hands of her
father and her brother.
What?
And that he was like protecting her to keep his own secret safe.
That was never confirmed.
And that's absolutely outrageous that they would try to use that.
Yeah.
This guy has lost his granddaughter.
I don't like the fact that they...
I do agree with you.
That they tried to say that about the death.
I do agree with you because he's not the one that's on trial.
Exactly.
And for your entire defense to be about somebody else's potential involvement in this case,
well, why isn't that guy arrested?
Exactly.
That doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make sense.
Yeah.
From a legal standpoint, it just doesn't make sense.
I don't think it should have been allowed.
No.
They could have easily said she drowned in the family pool and Casey had no other option
but to bury her child.
Exactly.
Yeah.
They could have said that instead of the dad and then the abuse and like all this stuff.
They could say it was a tumultuous household.
They could...
The fact that the death of the boyfriend in the car and like that her fiance, whatever
that guy might be a jerk too or something.
Yeah, exactly.
And then this boyfriend or whatever that she has a history of maybe people leaving her
or something like that.
They could have gone that angle and it's still be her fault but yet not...
You know what I'm saying?
Instead of accusing someone that's not on trial for a crime.
Someone that has nothing else to do with this case.
You know what?
Yeah.
Now on June 5th, the jury found Casey not guilty of all charges having to do with Caylee.
So that is first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse.
Although she was convicted of I think theft and covering up evidence, something along those
lines.
The reason that they stated for a not guilty verdict was that most of the evidence was
circumstantial.
Mm-hmm.
Now the aftermath of this trial brought on a slew of bills in several states for Caylee's
law which actually made it a felony for a parent or legal guardian to not report a missing
child.
Oh, that's interesting.
I actually didn't know that and I looked it up.
I'm not sure if Caylee's law is a thing in Texas, I think like a version of it is.
But still, that's really great.
I think that that should always been a law.
Yeah.
Last thing I'm gonna say about this case is that it is suspected, she was never diagnosed
but it is suspected by some that Caylee may have had histrionic personality disorder and
do you want to comment on what that means?
Yeah, so histrionic personality disorder, it's, you know, of course a personality disorder
and we've definitely talked about personality disorders before which usually involves a
lot of emotionally manipulating people or attention seeking behavior.
It's kind of interesting though because she covered up her pregnancy too.
Like it was almost like...
If she didn't want attention.
Yeah, you know what I mean, she didn't want attention towards herself.
Or maybe the wrong kind of attention or maybe there's another area of her life where she
was getting attention and that these things that she was trying to hide may take away
that attention.
Yeah, but again, we know that we've talked about as well in personality disorders, it's
like usually categorized with three or more of the following or whatever.
So maybe that just wasn't one of the things that she was showcasing, maybe with others.
Again, she was never even diagnosed or evaluated for this, this is just our thoughts that she
might have been closely related to that.
Right.
Histrionic personality disorder also, people with this disorder can also be overly flirtatious,
seductive, charming, manipulative.
I think that's where that root word comes from, histriona, like hysteria.
That makes a lot of sense.
Definitely.
So it's more like the pools of a feminine, you know, siren in the night or some shit.
That'd be scandalous.
All right, so that was the very brief version of the KC Anthony story.
That's really interesting.
Now we are going to move on to our next non-guilty verdict.
Can you guess who it is?
I am going to guess...
Hmm.
It was a famous non-guilty verdict.
Like the most famous one.
OJ Simpson?
We've mentioned OJ multiple times at our podcast.
Everyone, I mean, if you don't know who OJ Simpson is, like you have never been on the
internet.
I want Johnny Cochran to be my lawyer, like all the time.
So we're briefly going to go through the story.
So Ornthal James Simpson was born on July 9th, 1947 in San Francisco, California to
Eunice and Jimmy Lee Simpson.
I just remembered how sad I get when I hear the story.
He was one of four children, his brother being Melvin and two sisters Shirley and Carmelita.
He was actually diagnosed with rickets as a young child and he had to wear homemade
braces due to it.
My dead ass was like braces, like your teeth and then I looked it up and it's like forest
gum braces.
So...
Ah, forest run!
Yeah, so he had that.
OJ played football in high school and college where he set many records.
He was also very well known and celebrated athlete through the 60s and eventually he would
play in the NFL.
I'm sure we all know this.
Do you think that's where he got his passion for wanting to be really physically able?
Oh.
It's because maybe he felt like he couldn't when he was younger?
Absolutely.
I really truly believe that.
He would retire from the NFL in 1979 and then he would pursue a film and TV acting career
as well as being a sports commentator.
I totally forgot he was on Naked Gun.
I think it's the second one.
Yeah, he's in the movie Naked Gun.
I've never seen that movie.
It's like a spoof movie.
Oh, nice.
On June 12th, 1994...
Okay, so I went through his childhood really, really quick so we're just going to go right
into the case.
No worries.
On June 12th, 1994, OJ attended his daughter's dance recital as did his ex-wife Nicole Brown
Simpson.
After the recital, Nicole attended dinner with some family and friends where another
friend of hers, Ronald Goldman, worked as a waiter.
While there, Nicole's mother actually forgot her glasses on the table when they left and
Ronald had offered to drop them off at Nicole's house after work.
Later that night, a neighbor would spot Nicole's white dog walking around the neighborhood
by itself with bloody paws.
Obviously, very obvious as a white dog with red on his paws.
And just after midnight, the dog led to the discovery of Nicole and Ronald's bodies outside
of Nicole's home.
The two had been brutally stabbed to death just outside the front door.
The murder was absolutely horrendous with Nicole being stabbed 12 times and Ronald being
stabbed 25 times.
Oh my gosh, I did not know that.
Twice as many times for Ronald.
Doesn't someone's aggro at him?
Clearly, yes.
The next day, on June 13, police had gone to OJ Simpson's house while he was returning
from Chicago and they had actually found a trail of blood from his vehicle to the front
door as well as one bloody glove that actually matched one that was found near Ronald's body.
So it was like the other set bit.
What?
Yeah.
You know that?
No.
I didn't either.
That reminds me of forgetting Sarah Marshall when, have you seen it?
I've seen it a long time ago.
When Russell Brand is coming up and it's like the first time that you see Russell Brand's
character and he's like, oh yes, I've seen you in this place, ma shoo.
It looks just like this one, but it's the opposite.
It's like this one's mate.
This one's twin.
Yeah, exactly.
That's what it reminded me of.
Now after this evidence was found, OJ agreed to turn himself in, but ultimately would
flee on June 17.
Oh my gosh, we still have a video recording.
It's actually titled Ice Ice Baby and I don't know why.
I think it, well, it definitely used to have Ice Ice Baby on there and I don't know if
it was like mom and dad trying to make like a mixed tape of like music videos, but they
recorded over that mostly of the entire live feed of the chase.
Oh really?
Yes, and we still have it.
We just need a VHS player.
So OJ, like you just said, led police on a very like slow car chase.
Yeah.
It's just kind of like casual.
Like he was like, yeah, I'll turn myself in, just follow me over there and then like
didn't go where he was supposed to and then like kind of like kept going.
Well, it was his friend that was driving.
Oh really?
Yeah, his friend was driving and he was like honking down the back seat with a gun.
Oh, well he was allegedly also carrying his passport, some sort of disguise and almost
$9,000 in cash.
He's the Juts.
How do you disguise the Juts?
I don't understand.
Eventually, OJ gave himself up and was arrested and charged with the two murders on the same
day, June 17.
He would plead not guilty.
Plead.
He would plead not guilty and hired a team of lawyers to represent him, of course.
Unfortunately, his lengthy athletic and acting career became the focus of the trial rather
than the two lives that were lost.
Again, same thing kind of with Casey Anthony.
It's like, let's just talk about like everything else other than like this tragic murder.
Yeah.
On October 3, 1995, OJ Simpson was found not guilty of the two murder charges.
Although in a separate trial in 1997, he was found liable for the deaths of Nicole and
Ronald and was ordered to pay $33.5 million in damages to the families.
How is he liable but he didn't kill them?
I have no idea.
I tried to look it up and I really couldn't find like what that meant, like being liable
and being guilty.
Like I don't know.
Because there's some evidence behind either way, like he was the causation.
Like whether he hired someone to do it, like he was like he did it himself or whatever
the circumstances were, I guess.
It's like it's almost like, okay, we don't have enough evidence to convict you of first
degree murder, but like we know that you might have done it.
So let's make you liable.
I don't know.
We know you're involved somehow.
And I don't want to assume anything, but that has been said, this is just things that I
have read.
This is not my opinion that the jury might have convicted him not guilty because of his
position in the celebrity world.
Like they were like, oh, well, we're going to get a lot of backlash if we don't convict
him not guilty.
So that's just again, something that I read, not my opinion.
Now shockingly, OJ later collaborated with Pablo F. Finges on a book entitled quote,
If I did it, in which he had hypothesized about how he would have committed the murders
if he did them.
I know I'll know this.
No, that's the, what's weird about that is that I don't think a lot of people know that.
But he wrote that book.
Yeah, but he wrote that book.
Well, he, at this point, like you can't be a charm for the same crime twice.
So he's like literally like he could, if he did it, he could allegedly confess in the book
and like he literally can't go to jail with it for it.
Well, because it's all under the guise of like sensationalism, right?
Yeah, exactly.
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So that is the story about OJ.
If you guys knew that one already, thanks for staying with us.
But that's what I just wanted to pepper that in there as well.
And then also people have suspected that he may have had narcissistic personality disorder,
although again, no diagnosis has ever been made.
Yeah.
So you want to talk about that for a little bit?
Yeah, sure.
So not narcissistic personality disorder.
We covered this in another mental breakdown that we had.
We also, another great prime example of someone with narcissistic personality disorder is Scott
Peterson.
Scott Peterson liked having a pretty lavish lifestyle.
He had a girlfriend on the side and would ultimately be tried and convicted for the
murder of his wife and unborn child Connor, Lacey and Connor.
And yeah, just, you know, I think with Scott, he never felt like he was good enough.
I feel like there was always something more to obtain.
He was never really satisfied.
He couldn't really settle into this, okay, well, I've plateaued and I'm at this height
of my famous, not fame, but for him success, you know, I didn't become a famous golfer,
but that's okay too.
He never really felt that way.
It was always like there's something better that I must obtain.
I have to have the prettiest wife, the best life, all that.
And I feel like OJ does exhibit some of that behavior.
And from what you said when he had rickets to push himself to be this physically fit
individual and I'm going to be the best of the best, you know, I'm going to do, I'm
going to conquer the NFL world.
And then after that, I'm going to conquer the movie world.
And after that, I'm, you know, it's never enough.
So I can imagine if he were to come home one night and he were to see maybe, you know,
this man that's delivering these glasses and he sees that and maybe Nicole's in a robe
because, you know, people have mentioned that she was going to take a bath or whatever
it was.
And for him to happen upon this scene, there's no way, I know that you're filing for divorce
for me or that you will file, and they shared a child together.
They shared a daughter together.
You're not going to cheat on me with a waiter.
Are you kidding me?
That's going to make him look bad.
And again, this is all facts were not stated.
I mean, you can...
Well, you're delivering facts.
I'm delivering opinions.
Exactly.
This is all my speculation.
I will say though, many, many very successful people like celebrities, a lot of them have
narcissistic tendencies, right?
And I feel like a lot of the people that we cover have narcissistic personality disorder.
And it doesn't, again, we always say this, you know, mental illness is not a crime and
not everyone that has this is going to commit crimes.
And not everyone that has this is going to be diagnosed.
And so it's like, there's plenty of really successful people and that's because they
have narcissistic tendencies.
That's why they push themselves to get to the top.
And somehow these people that push themselves to get to the top and are very successful,
don't murder people.
And then sometimes people do murder people when they have it.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's definitely kind of like a consistent diagnosis that we see a lot.
But again, never diagnosed just suspected that he might have had tendencies.
It's a very interesting one.
Yeah, definitely.
And just, you know, just for my peace of mind that this goes out there, that it's not just
Nicole.
He didn't just murder his wife.
He also murdered Rod Goldman and that man deserves way more recognition and to be talked
about and his legacy talked about because, you know, because it doesn't happen very often.
Everybody just thinks of OJ Simpson killing his wife.
Well, also I didn't put this in here either, but the book somehow OJ lost like the royalties
for that.
All the royalties for that book actually go to Goldman's family.
Wow.
Well, you know what?
It's probably because, yeah, family probably sued or something.
You're not going to make money off this the death of our family member.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So I have one more.
You want to hear one more?
Yes.
Okay.
So last but not least, and this is just three or very easy examples.
There's plenty of other cases, but these are the most famous ones that I could find.
This one is actually Lizzie Borden.
Okay.
And I didn't know that Lizzie Borden got a not guilty verdict.
I wish to hear her name.
Yeah.
I don't know enough about Lizzie Borden.
Okay.
Well, I mean, I know what she did.
I didn't know.
I mean, I don't.
But she got accused of doing.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
Um, actually, I thought it would be interesting to mention as well because I actually listened
to the Christine Gilbert case earlier and they're both born in the same city.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
She said that she's like, I related to her.
She said that she's like a distrelative.
I'm a distrelative of Lizzie Borden.
So Lizzie Andrew Borden was born on July 19.
Her middle name was Andrew.
That's her father's name.
I fucking love that.
I love that too.
Uh, she was born on July 19 1860 in Fall River, Massachusetts to Sarah Anthony and Andrew Jackson
Borden.
Lizzie and her older sister Emma were raised in a very religious household and attended
church services regularly.
Three years after the death of Lizzie and Emma's biological mother, their father would
marry Abby Durfey Gray.
Lizzie stated that she called her stepmother Mrs. Borden, like sarcastically, and she believed
that Abby married her father just for his money rather than for love.
She didn't really care for her stepmother.
And Emily kind of felt the same way as well.
Their father Andrew was very successful in real estate and he owned a lot of property,
so he had a lot of money in this time, you know, the 1800s.
I know it was a lot of money.
The 1800s.
I want to see a conversion rate on something.
I have one.
Do you really?
Yes!
In May of 1892, it is noted that their father Andrew killed multiple pigeons in his barn
with a hatchet believing they were attracting children to come hunt them.
He didn't want kids on his property, so he was like, let me just kill all the animals
that they're coming to hunt, really, honestly.
Well, this made Lizzie very upset because she had recently built a roost for the pigeons.
And it's very commonly known around the area that she was really mad at him for killing
them because they were like her little babies.
Like her little pets.
Like the little baby birdies.
Keep in mind that he killed them with the hatchet.
Just throwing that out there.
Just putting, yeah.
I mean, what else would he kill them with though?
This is the 1800s.
They have guns.
No, they have like, they have like, muskets.
The ones with the little stabby things at the end.
They're called the bayonet.
Oh.
Bayonet.
A bayonet.
Yeah, as I said, bayonet.
Bayonet.
Like B-A-N-N-E-T.
No.
A bayonet.
You're right.
A family argument in July 1892 would ultimately end with both sisters taking vacations to
New Bedford away from their father and stepmother.
They kind of just like took off.
They're like, fuck this, I'm not doing this.
Tension had been growing in the boarding family, seemingly due to the fact that neither of the
girls cared for Abby, but also due to the fact that Andrew was gifting various branches
of real estate to members of Abby's family.
What?
Like he wasn't offering the girls any house or property and he was like gifting it to
like his new wife's family.
Like he was like, oh, these are my in-laws and they need like places.
Yeah.
Okay.
After Abby's sister received a house.
Yeah.
Okay.
The girls demanded and received a rental property from their father, which they purchased
from him for $1.
No.
$1.
No.
This was also the same home that they had grown up with with their mother.
Okay.
Grown up in with their mother.
So they were like, can we just live in this house like where we lived with mom, like the
mom we actually liked or whatever.
Yeah.
And they gave them a dollar for it.
How much was the dollar?
I didn't converge and rate that, but the girls would eventually sell the home back to their
father for $5,000.
$5,000?
Which would be the equivalent of $150,000 today.
$150,000.
Okay.
So they probably bought it for like a couple hundred bucks today.
Yeah.
And then they sold it back for $150,000.
Well maybe, well the dollar doesn't really, I mean, a dollar wouldn't be a few hundred
dollars that whole thing.
That's true.
It might have been like a dollar like, well, because that, in that time, it was like actually
still a dollar.
Like it wasn't like a conversion rate.
What I was going to say is that sometimes when you sell something to somebody, you can
sell it to them for a dollar.
It's essentially a gift, but at least there's a paper trail.
Yeah.
And so what I'm saying is that, yeah, if it's like you sold it to them for a dollar, like
okay, payment has been made, therefore it is legally yours.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
Instead of it just being a gift.
Yeah.
Okay.
Because a gift I'm pretty sure at some point.
Well if you gift something to someone that's like over $600, at least today, you have to
like write it off on like a text.
Yeah.
Something like that.
So at one point, their biological mother's brother was invited to stay on the property
for a few days to discuss like business with Andrew.
Some sources speculate that a conversation about property transfer may have aggravated
an already tense family situation.
Like maybe like the girls got mad or the brother got mad or something.
And for several days following this, the entire household actually became violently ill.
What?
A family friend later suggested that they had had meat like on the counter for too long
and then they were cooking with it and that's what made them sick.
They all ate it.
Yeah.
And it was like a pretty much like a lamb hawk, like instead of a ham hawk.
It was a lamb hawk.
But it had been there for a few days like out in the open and then I'm gonna fucking
fridges back then.
No, but they had like curing processes.
Yeah.
But they were saying that that might have been like the reason everyone got sick, but
Abby thought differently.
Okay.
Abby feared that they might have been poisoned because apparently Andrew had a lot of enemies.
Okay.
And a lot of people angry at him.
For what?
He's, I mean he's just dishing out properties.
He slept at night.
A successful guy.
Maybe he, he's a businessman, right?
You know, you're gonna have some enemies.
Sarah's brother, which is the biological mom, he arrived on the evening of August 3rd and
slept in the guest room.
The next morning he joined Andrew, Abby, Lizzie and the boardens made for breakfast.
And then him and Andrew went to the other room and chatted for about an hour.
This is like a real who done it.
They even have a maid.
Yeah.
It was the maid.
In the candlestick.
In the candlestick with the ballroom.
Now after this hour long-ish conversation, Andrew and the brother both left the home
to run some errands separately.
Andrew's, or the brother went to go for a walk and Andrew went to go do whatever.
Whatever Andrew does.
Whatever he does.
Although, again, this is really early in the morning.
Although the cleaning of the guest room was one of Lizzie's and Emma's regular chores,
Abby actually took it upon herself this day to go up and make the bed for the brother.
Apparently sometime between 9.30 and 10.30 a.m.
According to the forensic investigation, this would be the time that Abby was faced
with her killer.
Abby was first struck on the head with a hatchet, cutting her above the ear and causing her
to turn and fall face down on the floor.
So you think she turned to like turn away and then it caught her?
I think it hit her and it made her turn at the same time.
You know what I mean?
Well, depending on how you spun her around.
Yeah, depending on how you swing it.
Because if you swing it like this, then hit the microphone.
If you hit it like this, then it's going to be on the side of your head.
That's true.
Either way, she fell face down on the floor.
Her killer then struck her multiple times, delivering 17 more direct hits to the back
of her head, ultimately killing her.
Well yeah.
Yeah, so very, very violent crime.
When Andrew came home around 10.30 a.m., his key was not working for the front door
for some reason, so he just knocked.
He's like, hey.
Hey, can you let me in?
They're made, stated later, that she came to the door after she heard the knock and
let him in.
Wait, so she, wait.
Let me repeat that.
Somebody was murdered upstairs and then made just like, oh, she doesn't know yet.
How big is this house in the 1800s?
She was on the third floor, I'm pretty sure.
Okay, it's a big old house.
So we're not talking early 1800s.
I'm sorry.
It was late 1800s.
So essentially, she heard the knock, the maid was inside the house.
She came to the door to try to let Andrew in and she actually found that it was jammed,
which explains why his key wasn't working.
And she, as she's trying to get the door open, she says like a curse word, she's like, oh
shit, or whatever.
She's like, get in the house.
Outback.
I just got huge goosebumps.
When she says this word, she hears Lizzie laughing, but she doesn't see her.
Like she hears, she didn't, she looked around, she didn't see Lizzie, but she speculated
that the laughter was coming from the top of the stairs.
Yeah, just like with the hatchet.
But she didn't see her though.
She heard her.
She heard her supposedly at the top of the stairs.
She heard her with the hatchet.
Whatever.
Again, maid has no idea that Abby is unfortunately deceased upstairs.
Okay.
She's taking a nap, I'm just saying, I'm just, I'm having a problem with the acoustics
of all this.
Okay, so that's okay.
That's okay.
The fact that the maid did not see Lizzie, but speculated that her laughter came from
the stairs, the top of the stairs is very significant, because at this time Abby was
already dead, like I said.
So anyone on the top of the stairs would have seen her.
Oh, I see the same.
Right?
Like they would have seen the crime scene.
Yes, because they would have been right there.
Like who the fuck else would have done it, right?
I'm sorry, I'm not circulating.
It's not your job to speculate.
Lizzie would later testify that she was in fact not upstairs at this point.
I wasn't upstairs.
No, I wasn't.
Well, no one saw me.
I was outside.
So I was upstairs.
The maid then stated that she helped Andrew like get inside, get to the couch, she took
her shoes off, he was gonna lay down on the couch for a nap.
She took her shoes off?
She did.
Oh, I forgot, Mende can take off their shoes in the 1800s.
No, of course not.
I mean, she's getting paid, so.
Sorry.
Okay, so he lays down for a nap on the couch downstairs.
The maid then has a regular conversation with Lizzie.
I guess she finds her, she's like, oh, hey, there's a sale going on.
Apparently, Lizzie was saying something like, oh, there's a sale going on at this boutique
down the street.
Do you want to come with me to the maid?
Okay.
Trying to get out of the house perhaps?
And the maid said, no, she's not gonna go ahead and go.
Lizzie can go, but I'm gonna take a nap.
The maid's like, I'm gonna go upstairs and take a nap in my room.
I'm not gonna take a nap.
So Lizzie was like, okay, then I'm just gonna go anyway.
So she leaves, the maid goes upstairs, past the room, but on the third floor.
Okay.
So the second floor, I misspoke earlier.
Where Abby was was on the second floor.
I see.
This woman goes to the third floor.
So I guess she just passes it, she doesn't see.
Well, yeah, I mean, you're just going through the motions and just rounding the staircase,
that makes sense.
The maid later testified that she was in her, again, third floor bedroom when just before
11, 10 a.m., 40 minutes after Andrew gets home, around 40 minutes.
She heard Lizzie call her from downstairs, quote, come quick, father's dead, somebody
came in and killed him.
Fucking what?
I thought you were going to the store.
Why the fuck did you have to?
So I don't know.
I also have this hatch and I'm covered in blood.
I don't know what happened.
So within 40 minutes of Andrew getting home and laying down, he is now dead on the couch.
And Lizzie, I guess she was trying to say like she came home and she saw him or she
was home and she was trying to leave and someone came in, killed the dad and then just left
her unharmed.
I'm not sure what her story was.
And she didn't see a peep in between that.
Of course not.
Just after the fact.
She watched the whole thing happen in silence for like however long this crime would take
place, probably a manner of minutes and then just, oh shit, he's dead.
Yeah.
Hey.
So get this.
Andrew was found on the couch of course in the downstairs room, struck 10 or 11 times
with a hatchet.
So 10 or 11 they couldn't tell.
One of his eyes had been split cleanly in half.
Oh my God.
Suggesting that he was asleep when the attack happened.
I usually wouldn't put that detail like that graphic, but it shows that his eyes were closed
because he didn't like move.
You know what I mean?
Like it's completely in half.
Just making it over here, making hatchet motions.
His, okay.
This is also important to the crime.
I don't, again, counter-warning I guess.
His wounds were still bleeding when he was found by the maids suggesting that this happened
like just before she came downstairs.
So like who the, like this perpetrator just like vanished in like three seconds.
Yeah.
He's gone.
Yeah.
And then when he was called by the maid, he came over and pronounced both victims dead.
And at this point, I guess they had found Abby.
They were like, Abby, your husband's dead.
Oh, shit.
She said too.
Awful.
I'm not going to be polite.
The perpetrator ran upstairs and hurt her too in the matter of minutes.
Yeah.
I'm not exactly sure.
Again, this is like from the fucking 1800s.
So like kind of like hard to get all of the details.
Yeah.
Essentially that's what happened.
Now when questioned, Lizzie's initial answers to the police were strange and contradictory.
She had initially told police that she had heard like specific noises like around the
same time as the crime, like in their notes or whatever, like groaning or like, you know,
grunting or whatever.
And then she later told them that she didn't hear a thing.
She was like, oh yeah, I heard stuff.
Actually I didn't hear anything.
I mean, I, I don't know.
I mean, I watched it happen, but I don't know who it was.
I mean, I don't know.
Yeah.
Pretty much.
In the basement, police found two hatchets, two axes, and a hatchet head with a broken
handle, which was noted as being the murder weapon.
Okay.
The hatchet was used so like viciously that it broke.
And they noticed that the other two hatchets and the two axes had like dust on them.
So like they couldn't have been used.
It couldn't have been those.
Okay.
Which one did the dad use to kill the pigeons?
I don't know.
Maybe it was in the barn.
Well, that was like a while ago.
So maybe it was one of those and it was just sitting in the basement for ever.
I like to just speculate.
Throw that out there.
It's the same one.
Oh, true.
Oh yeah.
That's true.
Now, Lizzie and Emma's friend had actually like offered to stay the night with them at
the house the following night.
Lizzie wasn't immediately considered a suspect.
So there was Emma, so they left them there.
I guess they cleaned up.
I couldn't do that.
They could like stay the night in the same house.
Police were also stationed around the home that same night.
Didn't say if it was like a safety thing or a surveillance thing, but either way, they
were around the home.
Now, during this time, an officer had actually seen Lizzie and her friend, not Emma, just
Lizzie and the friend.
They like went out of the house and entered like the cellar in the middle of the night.
They were carrying like a kerosene lamp and a pail.
And it was later noted that Lizzie was like essentially caught trying to like burn items
of clothing that she had like brought down there with her.
Now, it was kind of like weird.
It was like it was never confirmed to be like the dress she was wearing that day or whatever.
Yeah.
When questioned about this, she pretty much told detectives like, oh, I had I had gotten
paint on those clothes and like I couldn't get it out.
So I just like so it is them.
I mean, like as one does.
Clearly.
Now, Lizzie Borden was eventually arrested for this crime and her trial was held nearly
a year later on June 5th, 1983.
After an hour and a half deliberation, Lizzie was found not guilty of murder due to the
primary evidence being circumstantial.
Similarly to the case, Anthony.
Because there was no witness.
Well, this is also the 1800s.
Exactly.
I mean, it's not, you know, there's no cameras or anything.
I kind of giggled to myself when you said earlier of the forensic examination and I
was like, they just don't do that.
Those are drama ladies.
Like what was a murder investigation of the 1930s?
Like, I know.
Well, John, John Chalk around the body.
That way we know where it was.
Exactly.
Oh, sir, we found a pool of the killer's blood in the hallway.
He's like, hmm, gross.
Mop it up.
Now back to my hunch.
It's literally what this is.
Exactly what it sounds like.
Gross.
Exiting the courthouse, Lizzie told reporters that she was quote, the happiest woman in
the world.
I'm the happiest woman in the world right now.
My parents are dead.
Nothing can take away my sunshine.
It is thought by some that Lizzie suffered from bipolar disorder.
And that is that case.
So I'll just really quickly touch on bipolar disorder.
There is two types.
There is type one and type two.
I'm not sure which one is which, so I'm not going to pretend to know.
But one of the types is very high highs with depressive episodes.
And the other one is very depressive low lows with manic episodes.
So either way, whichever one you have, you either experience a lot of mania or a lot
of depression with spurts of the other.
That makes sense.
And mania can essentially be it's very broad spectrum.
It can be like getting up and cleaning your room for the first time in weeks or, you know,
doing like a deep clean of the house or going, you know, on a drive randomly or, you know,
it can be very extreme, but it can also just be like self care, like a lot of self care
all at once.
Right.
It can be manic episodes and stuff or throwing yourself into a new relationship, things like
that.
You know, that's a manic that can be in this situation, a manic behavior.
I think when people see the like, you know, the impulse to like clean out something like,
I mean, I've been cleaning out my room today.
I did us was almost like, and then going randomly to read a book in the middle of the
day.
Yeah.
You know, so it seems like there are things that like normal people would do, but it's
out of character for the individual.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I also want to just note as well, like bipolar disorder, like in the 1800s is much
different than when Polar Disorder today.
She probably was just like a normal moody like teen and people just thought she was
bipolar.
And she was like, yeah, that wasn't really a diagnosis, like a really confirmed specific
one until recently.
I would say recently, like within the last hundred years, but you know, I don't know
if this, the sources that I saw that said that they suspected her by bipolar disorder
were current or they were from time.
So right.
And again, not diagnosed, just suspected.
But that is my, it's a write down.
Yeah.
A lot of fun.
I liked this kind of, you know, because I had.
I have wanted to tackle Lizzie Borden before.
Yeah.
I just didn't think that there was really enough information to do a very long case about
it, but I'm glad you covered everything that would be in a case.
Well, yeah, of course.
And again, like these three cases specifically, like it wouldn't make sense.
Like I said, to cover them because none of them were convicted.
So in the law, in the eyes of the law, they are not killers.
Of course, everyone has their opinions.
And they just have suspected.
Diagnoses.
Yeah, exactly.
But yeah, I thought it was really interesting.
Who knows, maybe I'll find a couple more and I'll do another one of these with three new
cases.
Yeah.
But yeah, that was my mental breakdown.
I'm glad that we were able to talk about that.
And I told Koel like way before we started, I was like, okay, I was like, I'm just letting
you know.
We do have mental breakdown.
I was like, I'm going to be fact based.
If you want to be a video maker, you're more than welcome to, but I'm going to be just
facts and stuff.
I had, I feel like I had to preface it before we started.
Yeah.
We would have just been having that conversation the whole time recording like, okay, well,
I don't want to do facts.
I don't want to do anything about it.
But yeah, so that is that.
We actually just put in another order for some more stickers.
These ones, instead of having our RSS link, are going to have our Instagram link on the
QR code.
So we put the order in for our patrons.
We're going to send those out as soon as we get them.
Really excited about that.
And also we're talking about maybe getting some, I know we've been talking about pens
and patches for a while.
That's still in the works.
But maybe some other merch, like maybe like coffee mugs or like t-shirts.
Something like that would be cool.
Let us know what you think.
If you guys like prefer Epsy or I know like Redbubble does some stuff.
So let us know what you all would prefer.
For sure.
And then thank you for the shout out and the case suggestion for Casey Anthony.
If you're listening, the person that sent us that message.
But yeah, that is all I have for today.
That was awesome.
That was good.
Thank you.
I'm glad you liked it.
Yeah.
So we'll be back on Thursday with another case.
And you can follow us on anywhere on social media at Diagnosing a Killer.
Did I already say this?
No.
And patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer if you'd like to donate to the Patreon.
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Thank you all so much.
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