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Hello!

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Hello!

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How's everybody doing?

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Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, the mental breakdown.

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The mental breakdown.

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My name is Kenna.

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I'm Koelle.

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I am excited to hear what you have to say for the mental breakdown.

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Yeah, this is going to be something way different than we've done before.

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We always say that.

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But it is.

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And I said it in the last case, I think, that I was going to do something different.

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This is going to be...

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Excuse me.

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This is going to be a great start.

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We just ate a big dinner, and so I'm really full, and I think that's what's happening.

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I don't know how to burp, like I've told you guys before, but I get these things of air

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that make noise.

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Little pockets.

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I think everybody gets that.

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But, yeah.

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Anyway, and this microphone picks up literally everything.

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It does.

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Sometimes, I don't think that y'all can hear exactly what we're hearing in the moment,

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just because everything's turned up on our end.

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I noticed in the episode that we did at Gilbert Jordan, there's two different times where

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you can hear Koda's collar.

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He shakes his head, our cat.

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We have four cats in this house.

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We used to have five, but they all have bells in their collar so we can hear them coming.

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And he shook, I guess, so you can hear it twice in the background.

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They all sound different too, which is funny, because I'm pretty sure they're essentially

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all the same bells, but I think it's just depending on who's walking and shaking their

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head.

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Yeah, because we have, just to let everyone know, if y'all are cat people, we have Koda.

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He is a black tabby, or he's like a Tomcat almost.

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He's an all-black cat, he's huge.

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He is huge, and he's probably the oldest cat that we have.

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He's 12, I think.

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Actually Zelda's older.

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Oh, okay.

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Well, he doesn't act like he's any older.

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And then Zelda, tell me again how they're related.

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Zelda's mother's daughter's litter is Koda.

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Okay, so Koda and Zelda are kind of from the same lineage.

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She is an all-grey cat, and she's real cute.

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She's not fat, but she's really fluffy.

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She's not fat.

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She's really not fat.

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She has a lot of hair.

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In fact, she's relatively thin just because she's older, but she has tons of hair, and

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it's wiry all over the place.

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Do you remember, do you know that cat on TikTok that's like, meh, Bobby?

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Yeah, Bobby cat?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, she looks like Isma when Isma gets turned into a cat, and she kind of acts like her

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Christian meow.

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She's like old ladies on this.

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She's crotchety.

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And then we have Seamus O'Neill, and he is a little, tiny, dittie, orange cat.

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He is a forever kitten.

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He's really small, but he's a full-grown cat.

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He's almost two years old.

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And then we have his brother, who is not really his brother, but we foster failed both of

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them.

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We fostered them at the same time.

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That is my baby.

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His name is Jose McGregor, because he is also orange, but he is orange and white, and Seamus

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is more just like orange.

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He is like twice the size of Seamus, even though they're the same age.

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I looked up orange cats, like when they have those little black spots, like on their nose

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or like maybe on their paws, because I was like, oh no, is that like a skin condition

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or something?

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No, I googled it.

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It's orange cat freckles.

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Oh, they have freckles.

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Isn't that cute?

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That is cute.

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So when you look at Seamus' nose, he has like three or four little freckles right on the

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tip of his nose.

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I love it.

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Isn't that cute?

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We have to post pictures for you guys too, because we did the, we told everyone about

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our finger tattoos and the last mental breakdown, and then I posted a photo of it.

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So maybe we'll have to post photos of the babies.

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The babies.

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If you're not a cat person, then I'm sorry, but you're probably going to see pictures

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of our cats and just deal with it.

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Okay.

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No dogs here.

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We used to have dogs, but we don't anymore.

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We were fortunate on the dogs that we did have.

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We were.

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They were great.

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All right.

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Well, let's get into this case.

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Oh, not even a case.

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I mean, it kind of is.

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So, okay, like I said, I'm doing something a little bit different.

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This time it's going to be true crime meets mental breakdown.

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Okay.

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So what we did get a case suggestion I mentioned recently, and this listener wanted us to do

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Casey Anthony.

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So I thought about it and I would love, I've heard the case.

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Obviously, we all probably know a little bit about the case.

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But because she was never convicted, she is not technically a killer in the eyes of the

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law.

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So it wouldn't make sense for us to do an episode on her, like a full episode.

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So what I decided to do was do a mental breakdown, non guilty verdicts.

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So I have three cases where they're all very famous.

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The verdict was not guilty.

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So I'm going to briefly go through each of those three cases and we're going to discuss

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none of these people have been diagnosed, but we'll discuss things that they are suspected

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of maybe being meeting the requirements for.

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Okay.

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And then we'll just kind of talk about the facts.

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This is different.

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I like this.

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Very different.

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I personally am going to try to steer clear of opinions.

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I just want to present the facts.

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And I'm nothing but opinions.

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That is my life as opinions.

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We will just present.

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I will present the facts and we will have a conversation.

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I don't know exactly how it's going to go, but we will get started.

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So of course, the first one I'm going to talk about is the case of Casey Anthony and Kaylee

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Anthony.

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So Casey Anthony was born on March 19th, 1986 in Warren, Ohio to Cindy and George Anthony.

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Casey as a child was known as a bright personable young girl with a lot of friends and many

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people were under the impression that she came from an all-American family that was

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very put together and very nice at home.

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Was that not the case?

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Well, some friends in high school would actually say that Casey developed a bit of a habit

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of lying.

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Okay.

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And it began to affect some relationships like friendships with her parents, yada yada.

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At her high school graduation, in fact, Cindy and George arrived along with Casey's grandparents

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to watch their daughter gain her diploma only to discover that she was several credits short

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of graduating.

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Casey had actually stopped attending school earlier in the year, but led her family to

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believe that she would be graduating that day.

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Oh my gosh.

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They show up.

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So they would know that.

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Expecting her to be graduating.

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She's like, oh, by the way, not the ceremony.

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Yeah, the reason that I'm not in this ceremony is because my ceremony already happened.

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You missed it.

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Yeah, exactly.

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You guys weren't even there.

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Thanks.

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Now, when she turned 19, Cindy noticed that Casey had been gaining weight in specific

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places and she began to think that her daughter might be pregnant.

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Okay.

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She denied this, but it wouldn't be until months later and months into her pregnancy

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that she would come clean to her parents, although she was not certain who the father

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of the child was.

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Oh my.

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So she lied about being pregnant, even though she was confronted about being pregnant.

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Yes.

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She would say that the father was one of two people.

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It could either be a young man that she had previously been in a relationship with that

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actually ultimately died in a car accident previous to this, but within enough time for

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him to possibly be the father as well as her fiance at the time, he could also be the

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dad.

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She was engaged.

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Yeah.

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And I like the way that I set this up because it's not as detailed as our normal cases because

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it's a really short snippet of the case.

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It's just nothing but punch lines.

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Exactly.

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I did that on purpose.

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That's awesome.

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Because if I didn't do that, it would be like a four hour episode because it would be three

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full cases.

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It's so true because we get so deep and dark or like, okay, it seems like they're doing

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better and then punchline.

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But this is just one after the other.

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So on August 9th, 2005, Casey would welcome her daughter, Kaylee Anthony, to the world.

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A friend of Casey's actually said that she had debated on giving Kaylee up for adoption

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at one point, but ultimately decided to keep her.

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She still engaged to the guy?

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Yes.

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Now Kaylee.

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Now, Casey and Kaylee would live with Cindy and George, Casey's parents, and her fiance

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would act as the father, although it was never confirmed that he was.

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A DNA test would later determine that he was not the father.

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Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, Mary, Mary.

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It's the same thing.

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They did the same thing on each other.

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Do they do DNA tests on Jerry?

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Oh yeah.

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Oh.

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Either way.

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I watched junk TV like that in a very, very long time.

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Kaylee's true father would actually never be found out.

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Really?

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To this day.

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Unless it was somewhere that I couldn't find, but I looked.

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Well, I guess they could have tested the family members of the young man that passed away,

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and they would have known.

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Yeah.

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That's not.

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As far as I could see, I'm not sure actually.

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As far as I could see, I just couldn't find it.

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It might be known like today, but as far as all of this happens, it wasn't known.

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It would kind of make sense if she did try to keep the pregnancy kind of under wraps

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if it was him, just because of the emotional...

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That's true.

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She would have to do some stuff with the family, and then she would have to be involved with

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the family because of course they would want to be there for their grandchild or their

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niece or nephew or whatever.

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That's a lot of pressure.

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For sure.

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You should absolutely not lie about being pregnant though, especially if you're married

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to someone.

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And you're showing.

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Well, you're not married, but you know.

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Well, engage Jesus.

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Or even in a relationship.

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Don't lie about being pregnant.

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I take what I said.

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Do you hear me birthing people?

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Don't lie about anything.

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Now, in mid-June 2008, an argument ensued between Casey and Cindy about Casey's suitability

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as a mother.

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Not sure exactly what happened, but because of this argument, Casey decided to leave the

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home with her now two-year-old daughter in a fit of anger the same day.

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And I know I said 2008, this is before her birthday, so she would still be two at this

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point.

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Okay.

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Over the next several weeks, Casey's still not staying at the home.

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She had seemingly just ran off and lived somewhere else with her daughter.

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Cindy would call Casey to check on Kaylee, and each time she called Casey, Casey told

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her that Kaylee was with the babysitter.

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So she wasn't able to come see her or anything like that.

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Every time she would call and check, I asked, Hey, how's Kaylee doing?

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Oh, she's with the babysitter.

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But they don't know where she's living.

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She might not even have a place of her own.

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Exactly.

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Couch surfing.

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And I didn't say this, but I'm pretty sure at this point, her and their fiance are no

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longer together.

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I don't think he's even in Kaylee's life at this point.

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Okay.

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So on July 13th, 2008, Cindy and George received a letter saying that Casey's car was in a

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tow yard, assuming that they probably had ownership of the car, or at least were on

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the lease.

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That's probably why they got that.

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That makes sense.

253
00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:23,920
Or it was the last known address.

254
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,720
Yeah, exactly.

255
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:31,000
When George went to pick up the car, he found Casey's purse inside, along with Kaylee's

256
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,720
car seat and toys in the back seat.

257
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,560
So she's with Kaylee somewhere.

258
00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:38,160
Why doesn't she have her car seat with her?

259
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,760
Especially if maybe she's in a different car or whatever.

260
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,440
Why would her car seat still be in there?

261
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:43,680
That makes sense.

262
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,080
He also noticed a strong odor that he could not identify coming from the trunk of the

263
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,080
car.

264
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,520
I guess they had looked in there to see if there was anything else that they wanted to

265
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,520
take, whatever.

266
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,160
Now the parents went looking for Casey, and they found her at her boyfriend's house.

267
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,680
Okay, so not the fiance.

268
00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:02,680
Okay, different guy.

269
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:03,680
Okay.

270
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:05,720
And I didn't put his name in here because it's not important.

271
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,800
They picked her up from the boyfriend's house and they took her with them back to their

272
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,640
home so that they could have a family conversation with her boyfriend.

273
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:20,080
When asked where Kaylee was, Casey broke down and told everybody that she had left Kaylee

274
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:26,720
with the nanny on June 16th and that she had ultimately kidnapped Kaylee.

275
00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:27,840
And what day is this?

276
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,640
This is July 13th.

277
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:30,640
Okay.

278
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,560
So it's been a hot minute.

279
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:34,840
In June this happened.

280
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,800
So why did you not report her missing or kidnapped?

281
00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,000
For like almost a month.

282
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,000
Yeah.

283
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:47,280
On July 15th, so this is two days later, Cindy reported Kaylee Anthony missing.

284
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,280
So the mom reported?

285
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:49,280
The mom did.

286
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,320
Not the mother, but the grandmother reported the baby missing.

287
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,000
Two days after she found out as well.

288
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,280
Two days after this lie was told that the baby was taken.

289
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:05,160
I don't know why I just kind of like flew over that that you had said that two days

290
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,160
later.

291
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,160
Yeah, that's wild.

292
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,920
Now, of course, Casey gets questioned by detectives.

293
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:11,920
Well, of course.

294
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,000
I mean, it's your baby.

295
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,120
After questioning Casey, detectives found discrepancies and assigned statements she

296
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,680
made about Kaylee's disappearance.

297
00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:25,400
On top of this, her friends and family had never heard the name of the nanny to whom

298
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,440
to which she was referring.

299
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,680
So no one recognized the nanny, the nanny, the nanny, the nanny and never said like her

300
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:33,400
name's Guterred or something.

301
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:34,520
Yeah, no one recognized her name.

302
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,080
Her name's Gunter.

303
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,800
So detectives also caught Casey and other lies when it came to where she worked.

304
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,040
I didn't really go into this, but allegedly she was saying that she worked in some place

305
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,040
that she actually didn't.

306
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,440
And there was no record of her working there.

307
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,480
She was subsequently arrested on July 16th, 2008, the day after Kaylee was reported missing

308
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,960
by her grandmother.

309
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,560
Mind you.

310
00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:59,720
While awaiting trial, insight about Casey's life in the days leading up to Kaylee being

311
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,360
reported missing surfaced.

312
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,040
It is known that she was partying quite a bit.

313
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:12,360
And she also got a tattoo that stated, quote, Bella Vita or beautiful life in Italian.

314
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,360
Mm-hmm.

315
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,080
But your child's missing.

316
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,080
Yes.

317
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,640
And is that referring to like she had a beautiful life?

318
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,600
Or is it just like my life is beautiful?

319
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:23,840
Now my life is beautiful.

320
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,720
Or did Kaylee have a beautiful life?

321
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,720
That's what I was thinking.

322
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:27,720
Yeah.

323
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:28,720
You know?

324
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,400
I think it just sounds like it's a beautiful life.

325
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:31,400
Yeah.

326
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,400
I don't know.

327
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,480
It also sounds very cliche too, so it could just be that.

328
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:35,480
True.

329
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,320
I might have just been like, I don't know, I want a tattoo with that one.

330
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,240
But either way, like according to her, her child isn't missing for over a month.

331
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,480
You're just gonna go get a fucking tattoo.

332
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:44,480
It's true.

333
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,560
I always think that I want to get tattoos, but especially when I'm like going through

334
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:50,440
something, the last thing I think about is getting a tattoo, honestly.

335
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:51,440
Exactly.

336
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,800
Especially if your child is missing.

337
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,040
Like that's something that I've never experienced.

338
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,040
Yeah.

339
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,320
Other than one time he was hiding from me in the bathroom and I couldn't find him and

340
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:00,320
I freaked out.

341
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:01,840
I was like, I freaked out.

342
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,320
Well, because it was around the time where he was like, he was walking and he was kind

343
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,320
of talking and yeah.

344
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:10,480
We have a pool in the back yard.

345
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:11,480
Yeah.

346
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,440
That's cause for concern as well.

347
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,480
All of our kids are water safe, but it takes time to learn how to swim.

348
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:17,480
Yeah.

349
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,280
And he was like three, I think.

350
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,760
And he would say, yeah mom or something like that whenever I call his name, but me going

351
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,520
around the house and calling his name over and over and for him not to respond was very

352
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:29,520
unusual.

353
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,200
Wasn't he laughing in the bathroom when he opened the door?

354
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:37,720
He was cowering kind of behind the toilet and I was like, that's gross.

355
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,680
I said, you call, like you let mom know where you are.

356
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,400
You know, I was scared and he's like, oh, I'm sorry.

357
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,000
He just thought it was funny.

358
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,600
But even in that moment I wasn't thinking, I wonder what tattoo I'm going to get.

359
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:51,680
Yeah, exactly.

360
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,520
Now Casey would return home on August 21st.

361
00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:03,560
On August 21st, 2008, when her $500,000 bail was posted by Bounty Hunter slash reality

362
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,280
TV figure Leonard Padilla.

363
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,280
Oh, I thought you were going to say dog the bounty hunter.

364
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:08,280
No, that's hilarious.

365
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:14,160
Now Leonard later stated that he hoped this act of kindness, aka bailing her out, would

366
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,920
give Casey incentive to tell him more information about the disappearance.

367
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:19,920
But she wouldn't say anything about it.

368
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:20,920
Yeah, of course not.

369
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:21,920
Because he just wasted $500,000.

370
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:22,920
Damn it.

371
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:29,800
Now Casey was actually back in jail only eight days after being bailed out, this time charged

372
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,080
with forging checks and identity theft.

373
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,360
Wait, what?

374
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,360
That is okay.

375
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:35,360
Is that news to you?

376
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,360
Because that was news to me.

377
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:37,360
Yeah, that's news to me for sure.

378
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,080
I did not know that at all.

379
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:46,920
Now on December 11th, 2008, human remains were found in a plastic bag in a wooded area

380
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,560
near Casey Anthony's home.

381
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,720
On December 19th, the remains were unfortunately identified as being Kaylee Anthony's.

382
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:55,720
I know.

383
00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:01,000
Especially since she was so close to home.

384
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,640
With prosecutors seeking the death penalty, the trial of Casey Anthony began in June of

385
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,520
2011, three years after the disappearance of Kaylee.

386
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,600
The prosecution painted Casey as a party girl that was unconcerned for her missing daughter

387
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,280
and responsible for her murder.

388
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,280
The defense told a very different story.

389
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:25,640
They suggested that Kaylee had actually drowned accidentally in the family's pool on June

390
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,880
16th, 2008, the day she was reported missing.

391
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,760
And George Anthony, Casey's dad, had covered up the death so that Casey would not be charged

392
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,880
with neglect.

393
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,120
They also tried to suggest that Casey had been sexually abused at the hands of her

394
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,160
father and her brother.

395
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:43,160
What?

396
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,880
And that he was like protecting her to keep his own secret safe.

397
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,480
That was never confirmed.

398
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,480
And that's absolutely outrageous that they would try to use that.

399
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:52,480
Yeah.

400
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,160
This guy has lost his granddaughter.

401
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,760
I don't like the fact that they...

402
00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:57,760
I do agree with you.

403
00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,240
That they tried to say that about the death.

404
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,760
I do agree with you because he's not the one that's on trial.

405
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:03,760
Exactly.

406
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:04,760
Exactly.

407
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,720
And for your entire defense to be about somebody else's potential involvement in this case,

408
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,120
well, why isn't that guy arrested?

409
00:17:10,120 --> 00:17:11,120
Exactly.

410
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:12,120
That doesn't make any sense.

411
00:17:12,120 --> 00:17:13,120
It doesn't make sense.

412
00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:14,120
Yeah.

413
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:15,120
From a legal standpoint, it just doesn't make sense.

414
00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:16,120
I don't think it should have been allowed.

415
00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:17,120
No.

416
00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:21,800
They could have easily said she drowned in the family pool and Casey had no other option

417
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,280
but to bury her child.

418
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,280
Exactly.

419
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,280
Yeah.

420
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:30,480
They could have said that instead of the dad and then the abuse and like all this stuff.

421
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,320
They could say it was a tumultuous household.

422
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:34,320
They could...

423
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:40,520
The fact that the death of the boyfriend in the car and like that her fiance, whatever

424
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,240
that guy might be a jerk too or something.

425
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:43,240
Yeah, exactly.

426
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:49,160
And then this boyfriend or whatever that she has a history of maybe people leaving her

427
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:50,560
or something like that.

428
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:55,080
They could have gone that angle and it's still be her fault but yet not...

429
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,080
You know what I'm saying?

430
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,080
Instead of accusing someone that's not on trial for a crime.

431
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,240
Someone that has nothing else to do with this case.

432
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,240
You know what?

433
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:02,240
Yeah.

434
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:03,240
Yeah.

435
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:08,080
Now on June 5th, the jury found Casey not guilty of all charges having to do with Caylee.

436
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,000
So that is first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse.

437
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,520
Although she was convicted of I think theft and covering up evidence, something along those

438
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:18,520
lines.

439
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,720
The reason that they stated for a not guilty verdict was that most of the evidence was

440
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:24,720
circumstantial.

441
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:25,720
Mm-hmm.

442
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,800
Now the aftermath of this trial brought on a slew of bills in several states for Caylee's

443
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:36,040
law which actually made it a felony for a parent or legal guardian to not report a missing

444
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,040
child.

445
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:38,040
Oh, that's interesting.

446
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:39,480
I actually didn't know that and I looked it up.

447
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,800
I'm not sure if Caylee's law is a thing in Texas, I think like a version of it is.

448
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,560
But still, that's really great.

449
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,640
I think that that should always been a law.

450
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:48,640
Yeah.

451
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,960
Last thing I'm gonna say about this case is that it is suspected, she was never diagnosed

452
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,120
but it is suspected by some that Caylee may have had histrionic personality disorder and

453
00:18:57,120 --> 00:18:59,320
do you want to comment on what that means?

454
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,960
Yeah, so histrionic personality disorder, it's, you know, of course a personality disorder

455
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,080
and we've definitely talked about personality disorders before which usually involves a

456
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,760
lot of emotionally manipulating people or attention seeking behavior.

457
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,880
It's kind of interesting though because she covered up her pregnancy too.

458
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,120
Like it was almost like...

459
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:19,600
If she didn't want attention.

460
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,680
Yeah, you know what I mean, she didn't want attention towards herself.

461
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,120
Or maybe the wrong kind of attention or maybe there's another area of her life where she

462
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:31,400
was getting attention and that these things that she was trying to hide may take away

463
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,400
that attention.

464
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,080
Yeah, but again, we know that we've talked about as well in personality disorders, it's

465
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,120
like usually categorized with three or more of the following or whatever.

466
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:45,360
So maybe that just wasn't one of the things that she was showcasing, maybe with others.

467
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,680
Again, she was never even diagnosed or evaluated for this, this is just our thoughts that she

468
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,240
might have been closely related to that.

469
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,240
Right.

470
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,800
Histrionic personality disorder also, people with this disorder can also be overly flirtatious,

471
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,120
seductive, charming, manipulative.

472
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:05,760
I think that's where that root word comes from, histriona, like hysteria.

473
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:06,760
That makes a lot of sense.

474
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:07,760
Definitely.

475
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:14,600
So it's more like the pools of a feminine, you know, siren in the night or some shit.

476
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:15,600
That'd be scandalous.

477
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:21,440
All right, so that was the very brief version of the KC Anthony story.

478
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:22,440
That's really interesting.

479
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,000
Now we are going to move on to our next non-guilty verdict.

480
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,200
Can you guess who it is?

481
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,040
I am going to guess...

482
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,040
Hmm.

483
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,920
It was a famous non-guilty verdict.

484
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,920
Like the most famous one.

485
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,480
OJ Simpson?

486
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,360
We've mentioned OJ multiple times at our podcast.

487
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,680
Everyone, I mean, if you don't know who OJ Simpson is, like you have never been on the

488
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:44,680
internet.

489
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,400
I want Johnny Cochran to be my lawyer, like all the time.

490
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,240
So we're briefly going to go through the story.

491
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,160
So Ornthal James Simpson was born on July 9th, 1947 in San Francisco, California to

492
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,200
Eunice and Jimmy Lee Simpson.

493
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,520
I just remembered how sad I get when I hear the story.

494
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:07,800
He was one of four children, his brother being Melvin and two sisters Shirley and Carmelita.

495
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,240
He was actually diagnosed with rickets as a young child and he had to wear homemade

496
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:13,640
braces due to it.

497
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,760
My dead ass was like braces, like your teeth and then I looked it up and it's like forest

498
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:18,760
gum braces.

499
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:19,760
So...

500
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:20,760
Ah, forest run!

501
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,640
Yeah, so he had that.

502
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,000
OJ played football in high school and college where he set many records.

503
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,440
He was also very well known and celebrated athlete through the 60s and eventually he would

504
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:32,440
play in the NFL.

505
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:33,720
I'm sure we all know this.

506
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,440
Do you think that's where he got his passion for wanting to be really physically able?

507
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,440
Oh.

508
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,280
It's because maybe he felt like he couldn't when he was younger?

509
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,280
Absolutely.

510
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:42,880
I really truly believe that.

511
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:48,200
He would retire from the NFL in 1979 and then he would pursue a film and TV acting career

512
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,960
as well as being a sports commentator.

513
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:51,840
I totally forgot he was on Naked Gun.

514
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,520
I think it's the second one.

515
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,520
Yeah, he's in the movie Naked Gun.

516
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:56,520
I've never seen that movie.

517
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,040
It's like a spoof movie.

518
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,480
Oh, nice.

519
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,480
On June 12th, 1994...

520
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,520
Okay, so I went through his childhood really, really quick so we're just going to go right

521
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:05,520
into the case.

522
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:06,520
No worries.

523
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:12,200
On June 12th, 1994, OJ attended his daughter's dance recital as did his ex-wife Nicole Brown

524
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:13,640
Simpson.

525
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,240
After the recital, Nicole attended dinner with some family and friends where another

526
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:22,080
friend of hers, Ronald Goldman, worked as a waiter.

527
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,880
While there, Nicole's mother actually forgot her glasses on the table when they left and

528
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,920
Ronald had offered to drop them off at Nicole's house after work.

529
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,800
Later that night, a neighbor would spot Nicole's white dog walking around the neighborhood

530
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,920
by itself with bloody paws.

531
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,280
Obviously, very obvious as a white dog with red on his paws.

532
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,400
And just after midnight, the dog led to the discovery of Nicole and Ronald's bodies outside

533
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,200
of Nicole's home.

534
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,880
The two had been brutally stabbed to death just outside the front door.

535
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:57,120
The murder was absolutely horrendous with Nicole being stabbed 12 times and Ronald being

536
00:22:57,120 --> 00:22:58,800
stabbed 25 times.

537
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,760
Oh my gosh, I did not know that.

538
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,840
Twice as many times for Ronald.

539
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,720
Doesn't someone's aggro at him?

540
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:06,040
Clearly, yes.

541
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,520
The next day, on June 13, police had gone to OJ Simpson's house while he was returning

542
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,880
from Chicago and they had actually found a trail of blood from his vehicle to the front

543
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:20,160
door as well as one bloody glove that actually matched one that was found near Ronald's body.

544
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,840
So it was like the other set bit.

545
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:22,840
What?

546
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,840
Yeah.

547
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,840
You know that?

548
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:25,840
No.

549
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:26,840
I didn't either.

550
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,560
That reminds me of forgetting Sarah Marshall when, have you seen it?

551
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,320
I've seen it a long time ago.

552
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,600
When Russell Brand is coming up and it's like the first time that you see Russell Brand's

553
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,440
character and he's like, oh yes, I've seen you in this place, ma shoo.

554
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,840
It looks just like this one, but it's the opposite.

555
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:43,840
It's like this one's mate.

556
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:44,840
This one's twin.

557
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:45,840
Yeah, exactly.

558
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:50,120
That's what it reminded me of.

559
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:54,280
Now after this evidence was found, OJ agreed to turn himself in, but ultimately would

560
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,280
flee on June 17.

561
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,680
Oh my gosh, we still have a video recording.

562
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,160
It's actually titled Ice Ice Baby and I don't know why.

563
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,600
I think it, well, it definitely used to have Ice Ice Baby on there and I don't know if

564
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,760
it was like mom and dad trying to make like a mixed tape of like music videos, but they

565
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:17,400
recorded over that mostly of the entire live feed of the chase.

566
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:18,400
Oh really?

567
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,400
Yes, and we still have it.

568
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,120
We just need a VHS player.

569
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:26,640
So OJ, like you just said, led police on a very like slow car chase.

570
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,640
Yeah.

571
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:28,640
It's just kind of like casual.

572
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,440
Like he was like, yeah, I'll turn myself in, just follow me over there and then like

573
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,440
didn't go where he was supposed to and then like kind of like kept going.

574
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,040
Well, it was his friend that was driving.

575
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,040
Oh really?

576
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,440
Yeah, his friend was driving and he was like honking down the back seat with a gun.

577
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,840
Oh, well he was allegedly also carrying his passport, some sort of disguise and almost

578
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,960
$9,000 in cash.

579
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:47,960
He's the Juts.

580
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:48,960
How do you disguise the Juts?

581
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:49,960
I don't understand.

582
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,400
Eventually, OJ gave himself up and was arrested and charged with the two murders on the same

583
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,240
day, June 17.

584
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,240
He would plead not guilty.

585
00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,240
Plead.

586
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,240
He would plead not guilty and hired a team of lawyers to represent him, of course.

587
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,840
Unfortunately, his lengthy athletic and acting career became the focus of the trial rather

588
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,880
than the two lives that were lost.

589
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,200
Again, same thing kind of with Casey Anthony.

590
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,360
It's like, let's just talk about like everything else other than like this tragic murder.

591
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:19,360
Yeah.

592
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:20,360
Yeah.

593
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:25,480
On October 3, 1995, OJ Simpson was found not guilty of the two murder charges.

594
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,000
Although in a separate trial in 1997, he was found liable for the deaths of Nicole and

595
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:36,560
Ronald and was ordered to pay $33.5 million in damages to the families.

596
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,520
How is he liable but he didn't kill them?

597
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,720
I have no idea.

598
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:46,440
I tried to look it up and I really couldn't find like what that meant, like being liable

599
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:47,440
and being guilty.

600
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,400
Like I don't know.

601
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Because there's some evidence behind either way, like he was the causation.

602
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,920
Like whether he hired someone to do it, like he was like he did it himself or whatever

603
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,040
the circumstances were, I guess.

604
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,520
It's like it's almost like, okay, we don't have enough evidence to convict you of first

605
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,200
degree murder, but like we know that you might have done it.

606
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,200
So let's make you liable.

607
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,200
I don't know.

608
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,600
We know you're involved somehow.

609
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:20,680
And I don't want to assume anything, but that has been said, this is just things that I

610
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:21,680
have read.

611
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,000
This is not my opinion that the jury might have convicted him not guilty because of his

612
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,920
position in the celebrity world.

613
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,240
Like they were like, oh, well, we're going to get a lot of backlash if we don't convict

614
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,080
him not guilty.

615
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,280
So that's just again, something that I read, not my opinion.

616
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:40,800
Now shockingly, OJ later collaborated with Pablo F. Finges on a book entitled quote,

617
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,760
If I did it, in which he had hypothesized about how he would have committed the murders

618
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,760
if he did them.

619
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,760
I know I'll know this.

620
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,800
No, that's the, what's weird about that is that I don't think a lot of people know that.

621
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:52,800
But he wrote that book.

622
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,280
Yeah, but he wrote that book.

623
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,040
Well, he, at this point, like you can't be a charm for the same crime twice.

624
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,160
So he's like literally like he could, if he did it, he could allegedly confess in the book

625
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,560
and like he literally can't go to jail with it for it.

626
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,480
Well, because it's all under the guise of like sensationalism, right?

627
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,480
Yeah, exactly.

628
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629
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630
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631
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633
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634
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,480
So that is the story about OJ.

635
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,920
If you guys knew that one already, thanks for staying with us.

636
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,840
But that's what I just wanted to pepper that in there as well.

637
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,440
And then also people have suspected that he may have had narcissistic personality disorder,

638
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,840
although again, no diagnosis has ever been made.

639
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:57,840
Yeah.

640
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:58,840
So you want to talk about that for a little bit?

641
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,840
Yeah, sure.

642
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,840
So not narcissistic personality disorder.

643
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,480
We covered this in another mental breakdown that we had.

644
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,560
We also, another great prime example of someone with narcissistic personality disorder is Scott

645
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,560
Peterson.

646
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,400
Scott Peterson liked having a pretty lavish lifestyle.

647
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,800
He had a girlfriend on the side and would ultimately be tried and convicted for the

648
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:24,080
murder of his wife and unborn child Connor, Lacey and Connor.

649
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,560
And yeah, just, you know, I think with Scott, he never felt like he was good enough.

650
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,600
I feel like there was always something more to obtain.

651
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,760
He was never really satisfied.

652
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,160
He couldn't really settle into this, okay, well, I've plateaued and I'm at this height

653
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:47,720
of my famous, not fame, but for him success, you know, I didn't become a famous golfer,

654
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,720
but that's okay too.

655
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:49,720
He never really felt that way.

656
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,920
It was always like there's something better that I must obtain.

657
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,080
I have to have the prettiest wife, the best life, all that.

658
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,520
And I feel like OJ does exhibit some of that behavior.

659
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:06,080
And from what you said when he had rickets to push himself to be this physically fit

660
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,080
individual and I'm going to be the best of the best, you know, I'm going to do, I'm

661
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,120
going to conquer the NFL world.

662
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,720
And then after that, I'm going to conquer the movie world.

663
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,760
And after that, I'm, you know, it's never enough.

664
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:24,320
So I can imagine if he were to come home one night and he were to see maybe, you know,

665
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,200
this man that's delivering these glasses and he sees that and maybe Nicole's in a robe

666
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,280
because, you know, people have mentioned that she was going to take a bath or whatever

667
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:34,780
it was.

668
00:29:34,780 --> 00:29:41,360
And for him to happen upon this scene, there's no way, I know that you're filing for divorce

669
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,920
for me or that you will file, and they shared a child together.

670
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,840
They shared a daughter together.

671
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,480
You're not going to cheat on me with a waiter.

672
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:48,480
Are you kidding me?

673
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:49,880
That's going to make him look bad.

674
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,800
And again, this is all facts were not stated.

675
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:53,800
I mean, you can...

676
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Well, you're delivering facts.

677
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:55,800
I'm delivering opinions.

678
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:56,800
Exactly.

679
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,800
This is all my speculation.

680
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:03,160
I will say though, many, many very successful people like celebrities, a lot of them have

681
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,920
narcissistic tendencies, right?

682
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,840
And I feel like a lot of the people that we cover have narcissistic personality disorder.

683
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,120
And it doesn't, again, we always say this, you know, mental illness is not a crime and

684
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,240
not everyone that has this is going to commit crimes.

685
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:17,760
And not everyone that has this is going to be diagnosed.

686
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,800
And so it's like, there's plenty of really successful people and that's because they

687
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,360
have narcissistic tendencies.

688
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,080
That's why they push themselves to get to the top.

689
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,160
And somehow these people that push themselves to get to the top and are very successful,

690
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,160
don't murder people.

691
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,560
And then sometimes people do murder people when they have it.

692
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,560
Absolutely.

693
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,560
Yeah.

694
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,760
It's definitely kind of like a consistent diagnosis that we see a lot.

695
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,400
But again, never diagnosed just suspected that he might have had tendencies.

696
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:45,640
It's a very interesting one.

697
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:46,640
Yeah, definitely.

698
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,120
And just, you know, just for my peace of mind that this goes out there, that it's not just

699
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,120
Nicole.

700
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,200
He didn't just murder his wife.

701
00:30:53,200 --> 00:31:01,120
He also murdered Rod Goldman and that man deserves way more recognition and to be talked

702
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:07,640
about and his legacy talked about because, you know, because it doesn't happen very often.

703
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,640
Everybody just thinks of OJ Simpson killing his wife.

704
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,360
Well, also I didn't put this in here either, but the book somehow OJ lost like the royalties

705
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,360
for that.

706
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,640
All the royalties for that book actually go to Goldman's family.

707
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:18,640
Wow.

708
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:19,640
Well, you know what?

709
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,080
It's probably because, yeah, family probably sued or something.

710
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,080
You're not going to make money off this the death of our family member.

711
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,080
Exactly.

712
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,080
Yeah.

713
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,080
So I have one more.

714
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,080
You want to hear one more?

715
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,080
Yes.

716
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Okay.

717
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,520
So last but not least, and this is just three or very easy examples.

718
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,520
There's plenty of other cases, but these are the most famous ones that I could find.

719
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,120
This one is actually Lizzie Borden.

720
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,120
Okay.

721
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,000
And I didn't know that Lizzie Borden got a not guilty verdict.

722
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,600
I wish to hear her name.

723
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:45,600
Yeah.

724
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:46,600
I don't know enough about Lizzie Borden.

725
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:47,600
Okay.

726
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,600
Well, I mean, I know what she did.

727
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:49,600
I didn't know.

728
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:50,600
I mean, I don't.

729
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,440
But she got accused of doing.

730
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,440
Yes, exactly.

731
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,440
Yes.

732
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,720
Um, actually, I thought it would be interesting to mention as well because I actually listened

733
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,680
to the Christine Gilbert case earlier and they're both born in the same city.

734
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:01,680
Oh, yeah, that's right.

735
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,680
She said that she's like, I related to her.

736
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,280
She said that she's like a distrelative.

737
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,040
I'm a distrelative of Lizzie Borden.

738
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,760
So Lizzie Andrew Borden was born on July 19.

739
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:12,760
Her middle name was Andrew.

740
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:13,760
That's her father's name.

741
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:14,760
I fucking love that.

742
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,760
I love that too.

743
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:21,720
Uh, she was born on July 19 1860 in Fall River, Massachusetts to Sarah Anthony and Andrew Jackson

744
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,040
Borden.

745
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,480
Lizzie and her older sister Emma were raised in a very religious household and attended

746
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,000
church services regularly.

747
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,000
Three years after the death of Lizzie and Emma's biological mother, their father would

748
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,120
marry Abby Durfey Gray.

749
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,840
Lizzie stated that she called her stepmother Mrs. Borden, like sarcastically, and she believed

750
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,720
that Abby married her father just for his money rather than for love.

751
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,960
She didn't really care for her stepmother.

752
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,840
And Emily kind of felt the same way as well.

753
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,400
Their father Andrew was very successful in real estate and he owned a lot of property,

754
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,200
so he had a lot of money in this time, you know, the 1800s.

755
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,840
I know it was a lot of money.

756
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,080
The 1800s.

757
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:02,600
I want to see a conversion rate on something.

758
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:03,600
I have one.

759
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:04,600
Do you really?

760
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:05,600
Yes!

761
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:06,600
Yes!

762
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,120
In May of 1892, it is noted that their father Andrew killed multiple pigeons in his barn

763
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,160
with a hatchet believing they were attracting children to come hunt them.

764
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,120
He didn't want kids on his property, so he was like, let me just kill all the animals

765
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,120
that they're coming to hunt, really, honestly.

766
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,200
Well, this made Lizzie very upset because she had recently built a roost for the pigeons.

767
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,640
And it's very commonly known around the area that she was really mad at him for killing

768
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,400
them because they were like her little babies.

769
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,400
Like her little pets.

770
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,960
Like the little baby birdies.

771
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,480
Keep in mind that he killed them with the hatchet.

772
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,480
Just throwing that out there.

773
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:36,480
Just putting, yeah.

774
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,880
I mean, what else would he kill them with though?

775
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:38,880
This is the 1800s.

776
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:39,880
They have guns.

777
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,880
No, they have like, they have like, muskets.

778
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,760
The ones with the little stabby things at the end.

779
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,760
They're called the bayonet.

780
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:50,760
Oh.

781
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,760
Bayonet.

782
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,760
A bayonet.

783
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:53,760
Yeah, as I said, bayonet.

784
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:54,760
Bayonet.

785
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:55,760
Like B-A-N-N-E-T.

786
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:56,760
No.

787
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:57,760
A bayonet.

788
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:58,760
A bayonet.

789
00:33:58,760 --> 00:33:59,760
You're right.

790
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,360
A family argument in July 1892 would ultimately end with both sisters taking vacations to

791
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,760
New Bedford away from their father and stepmother.

792
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,760
They kind of just like took off.

793
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,800
They're like, fuck this, I'm not doing this.

794
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,520
Tension had been growing in the boarding family, seemingly due to the fact that neither of the

795
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,760
girls cared for Abby, but also due to the fact that Andrew was gifting various branches

796
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,600
of real estate to members of Abby's family.

797
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:23,600
What?

798
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,600
Like he wasn't offering the girls any house or property and he was like gifting it to

799
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,240
like his new wife's family.

800
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:33,440
Like he was like, oh, these are my in-laws and they need like places.

801
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:34,440
Yeah.

802
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:35,440
Okay.

803
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,640
After Abby's sister received a house.

804
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:39,640
Yeah.

805
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:40,640
Okay.

806
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,360
The girls demanded and received a rental property from their father, which they purchased

807
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,120
from him for $1.

808
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,120
No.

809
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,120
$1.

810
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,120
No.

811
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,320
This was also the same home that they had grown up with with their mother.

812
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,320
Okay.

813
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,320
Grown up in with their mother.

814
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,760
So they were like, can we just live in this house like where we lived with mom, like the

815
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,320
mom we actually liked or whatever.

816
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,320
Yeah.

817
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,320
And they gave them a dollar for it.

818
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:02,800
How much was the dollar?

819
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,120
I didn't converge and rate that, but the girls would eventually sell the home back to their

820
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,120
father for $5,000.

821
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,280
$5,000?

822
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,120
Which would be the equivalent of $150,000 today.

823
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,120
$150,000.

824
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:15,120
Okay.

825
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,040
So they probably bought it for like a couple hundred bucks today.

826
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,040
Yeah.

827
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,160
And then they sold it back for $150,000.

828
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,920
Well maybe, well the dollar doesn't really, I mean, a dollar wouldn't be a few hundred

829
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:25,920
dollars that whole thing.

830
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:26,920
That's true.

831
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,200
It might have been like a dollar like, well, because that, in that time, it was like actually

832
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,200
still a dollar.

833
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,600
Like it wasn't like a conversion rate.

834
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,080
What I was going to say is that sometimes when you sell something to somebody, you can

835
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,520
sell it to them for a dollar.

836
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,960
It's essentially a gift, but at least there's a paper trail.

837
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:40,960
Yeah.

838
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,240
And so what I'm saying is that, yeah, if it's like you sold it to them for a dollar, like

839
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:49,480
okay, payment has been made, therefore it is legally yours.

840
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,480
Gotcha.

841
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:51,480
Yeah.

842
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,960
Instead of it just being a gift.

843
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:53,960
Yeah.

844
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:54,960
Yeah.

845
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:55,960
Okay.

846
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,360
Because a gift I'm pretty sure at some point.

847
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,000
Well if you gift something to someone that's like over $600, at least today, you have to

848
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,480
like write it off on like a text.

849
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:04,480
Yeah.

850
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:05,480
Something like that.

851
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,240
So at one point, their biological mother's brother was invited to stay on the property

852
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,880
for a few days to discuss like business with Andrew.

853
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,920
Some sources speculate that a conversation about property transfer may have aggravated

854
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,880
an already tense family situation.

855
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,320
Like maybe like the girls got mad or the brother got mad or something.

856
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:29,040
And for several days following this, the entire household actually became violently ill.

857
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,440
What?

858
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,760
A family friend later suggested that they had had meat like on the counter for too long

859
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,560
and then they were cooking with it and that's what made them sick.

860
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:38,560
They all ate it.

861
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,560
Yeah.

862
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,840
And it was like a pretty much like a lamb hawk, like instead of a ham hawk.

863
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:43,840
It was a lamb hawk.

864
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:44,840
It was a lamb hawk.

865
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,840
But it had been there for a few days like out in the open and then I'm gonna fucking

866
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:47,840
fridges back then.

867
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,640
No, but they had like curing processes.

868
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,640
Yeah.

869
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,640
But they were saying that that might have been like the reason everyone got sick, but

870
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,440
Abby thought differently.

871
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:56,440
Okay.

872
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:02,040
Abby feared that they might have been poisoned because apparently Andrew had a lot of enemies.

873
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,040
Okay.

874
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,680
And a lot of people angry at him.

875
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,680
For what?

876
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,280
He's, I mean he's just dishing out properties.

877
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,280
He slept at night.

878
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:10,280
A successful guy.

879
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,280
Maybe he, he's a businessman, right?

880
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,280
You know, you're gonna have some enemies.

881
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,600
Sarah's brother, which is the biological mom, he arrived on the evening of August 3rd and

882
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,640
slept in the guest room.

883
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:26,440
The next morning he joined Andrew, Abby, Lizzie and the boardens made for breakfast.

884
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,000
And then him and Andrew went to the other room and chatted for about an hour.

885
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,400
This is like a real who done it.

886
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:31,400
They even have a maid.

887
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,400
Yeah.

888
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,400
It was the maid.

889
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,840
In the candlestick.

890
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,880
In the candlestick.

891
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:40,040
In the candlestick.

892
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,520
In the candlestick with the ballroom.

893
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Now after this hour long-ish conversation, Andrew and the brother both left the home

894
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,200
to run some errands separately.

895
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,080
Andrew's, or the brother went to go for a walk and Andrew went to go do whatever.

896
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:54,080
Whatever Andrew does.

897
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:55,080
Whatever he does.

898
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,080
Although, again, this is really early in the morning.

899
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,680
Although the cleaning of the guest room was one of Lizzie's and Emma's regular chores,

900
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,800
Abby actually took it upon herself this day to go up and make the bed for the brother.

901
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,480
Apparently sometime between 9.30 and 10.30 a.m.

902
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,240
According to the forensic investigation, this would be the time that Abby was faced

903
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:17,680
with her killer.

904
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,560
Abby was first struck on the head with a hatchet, cutting her above the ear and causing her

905
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,560
to turn and fall face down on the floor.

906
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,280
So you think she turned to like turn away and then it caught her?

907
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,400
I think it hit her and it made her turn at the same time.

908
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,400
You know what I mean?

909
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,400
Well, depending on how you spun her around.

910
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:33,400
Yeah, depending on how you swing it.

911
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,480
Because if you swing it like this, then hit the microphone.

912
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:42,080
If you hit it like this, then it's going to be on the side of your head.

913
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,080
That's true.

914
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,680
Either way, she fell face down on the floor.

915
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:53,000
Her killer then struck her multiple times, delivering 17 more direct hits to the back

916
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,880
of her head, ultimately killing her.

917
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:56,880
Well yeah.

918
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,640
Yeah, so very, very violent crime.

919
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,480
When Andrew came home around 10.30 a.m., his key was not working for the front door

920
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,120
for some reason, so he just knocked.

921
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,120
He's like, hey.

922
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,200
Hey, can you let me in?

923
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,600
They're made, stated later, that she came to the door after she heard the knock and

924
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:17,600
let him in.

925
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:18,600
Wait, so she, wait.

926
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,200
Let me repeat that.

927
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,080
Somebody was murdered upstairs and then made just like, oh, she doesn't know yet.

928
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,520
How big is this house in the 1800s?

929
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,880
She was on the third floor, I'm pretty sure.

930
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,480
Okay, it's a big old house.

931
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,000
So we're not talking early 1800s.

932
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,000
I'm sorry.

933
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,080
It was late 1800s.

934
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,120
So essentially, she heard the knock, the maid was inside the house.

935
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,200
She came to the door to try to let Andrew in and she actually found that it was jammed,

936
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,760
which explains why his key wasn't working.

937
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,280
And she, as she's trying to get the door open, she says like a curse word, she's like, oh

938
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,280
shit, or whatever.

939
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,280
She's like, get in the house.

940
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,280
Outback.

941
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,600
I just got huge goosebumps.

942
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:01,360
When she says this word, she hears Lizzie laughing, but she doesn't see her.

943
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:07,480
Like she hears, she didn't, she looked around, she didn't see Lizzie, but she speculated

944
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,160
that the laughter was coming from the top of the stairs.

945
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,200
Yeah, just like with the hatchet.

946
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,880
But she didn't see her though.

947
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,880
She heard her.

948
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,920
She heard her supposedly at the top of the stairs.

949
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:17,920
She heard her with the hatchet.

950
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:18,920
Whatever.

951
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,800
Again, maid has no idea that Abby is unfortunately deceased upstairs.

952
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:23,800
Okay.

953
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,360
She's taking a nap, I'm just saying, I'm just, I'm having a problem with the acoustics

954
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,360
of all this.

955
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,360
Okay, so that's okay.

956
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:30,360
That's okay.

957
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:36,200
The fact that the maid did not see Lizzie, but speculated that her laughter came from

958
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,000
the stairs, the top of the stairs is very significant, because at this time Abby was

959
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,640
already dead, like I said.

960
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,560
So anyone on the top of the stairs would have seen her.

961
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:45,560
Oh, I see the same.

962
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:46,560
Right?

963
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:47,560
Like they would have seen the crime scene.

964
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,400
Yes, because they would have been right there.

965
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,480
Like who the fuck else would have done it, right?

966
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,560
I'm sorry, I'm not circulating.

967
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,800
It's not your job to speculate.

968
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,880
Lizzie would later testify that she was in fact not upstairs at this point.

969
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:00,880
I wasn't upstairs.

970
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:01,880
No, I wasn't.

971
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:02,880
Well, no one saw me.

972
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:03,880
I was outside.

973
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,880
So I was upstairs.

974
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,760
The maid then stated that she helped Andrew like get inside, get to the couch, she took

975
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,920
her shoes off, he was gonna lay down on the couch for a nap.

976
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:10,920
She took her shoes off?

977
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:11,920
She did.

978
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,920
Oh, I forgot, Mende can take off their shoes in the 1800s.

979
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:14,920
No, of course not.

980
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:15,920
I mean, she's getting paid, so.

981
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,920
Sorry.

982
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:23,280
Okay, so he lays down for a nap on the couch downstairs.

983
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,200
The maid then has a regular conversation with Lizzie.

984
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,680
I guess she finds her, she's like, oh, hey, there's a sale going on.

985
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,680
Apparently, Lizzie was saying something like, oh, there's a sale going on at this boutique

986
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:34,680
down the street.

987
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,280
Do you want to come with me to the maid?

988
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,280
Okay.

989
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,240
Trying to get out of the house perhaps?

990
00:41:39,240 --> 00:41:42,560
And the maid said, no, she's not gonna go ahead and go.

991
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:43,960
Lizzie can go, but I'm gonna take a nap.

992
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,160
The maid's like, I'm gonna go upstairs and take a nap in my room.

993
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,720
I'm not gonna take a nap.

994
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:50,800
So Lizzie was like, okay, then I'm just gonna go anyway.

995
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,440
So she leaves, the maid goes upstairs, past the room, but on the third floor.

996
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,440
Okay.

997
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,480
So the second floor, I misspoke earlier.

998
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:59,800
Where Abby was was on the second floor.

999
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:00,800
I see.

1000
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:01,800
This woman goes to the third floor.

1001
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:02,800
So I guess she just passes it, she doesn't see.

1002
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,640
Well, yeah, I mean, you're just going through the motions and just rounding the staircase,

1003
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:08,800
that makes sense.

1004
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,040
The maid later testified that she was in her, again, third floor bedroom when just before

1005
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:20,240
11, 10 a.m., 40 minutes after Andrew gets home, around 40 minutes.

1006
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:25,960
She heard Lizzie call her from downstairs, quote, come quick, father's dead, somebody

1007
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,920
came in and killed him.

1008
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:30,920
Fucking what?

1009
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:31,920
I thought you were going to the store.

1010
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,720
Why the fuck did you have to?

1011
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:35,720
So I don't know.

1012
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:37,480
I also have this hatch and I'm covered in blood.

1013
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:38,480
I don't know what happened.

1014
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:45,120
So within 40 minutes of Andrew getting home and laying down, he is now dead on the couch.

1015
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,200
And Lizzie, I guess she was trying to say like she came home and she saw him or she

1016
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,960
was home and she was trying to leave and someone came in, killed the dad and then just left

1017
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:54,960
her unharmed.

1018
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:55,960
I'm not sure what her story was.

1019
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:56,960
And she didn't see a peep in between that.

1020
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:57,960
Of course not.

1021
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:58,960
Just after the fact.

1022
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,480
She watched the whole thing happen in silence for like however long this crime would take

1023
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:11,520
place, probably a manner of minutes and then just, oh shit, he's dead.

1024
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:12,520
Yeah.

1025
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:13,520
Hey.

1026
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:14,520
So get this.

1027
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,600
Andrew was found on the couch of course in the downstairs room, struck 10 or 11 times

1028
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:19,600
with a hatchet.

1029
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,440
So 10 or 11 they couldn't tell.

1030
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,040
One of his eyes had been split cleanly in half.

1031
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,040
Oh my God.

1032
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,200
Suggesting that he was asleep when the attack happened.

1033
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,400
I usually wouldn't put that detail like that graphic, but it shows that his eyes were closed

1034
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,200
because he didn't like move.

1035
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,200
You know what I mean?

1036
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,200
Like it's completely in half.

1037
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:43,720
Just making it over here, making hatchet motions.

1038
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:45,360
His, okay.

1039
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:46,800
This is also important to the crime.

1040
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,040
I don't, again, counter-warning I guess.

1041
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,080
His wounds were still bleeding when he was found by the maids suggesting that this happened

1042
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,120
like just before she came downstairs.

1043
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,040
So like who the, like this perpetrator just like vanished in like three seconds.

1044
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,040
Yeah.

1045
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,040
He's gone.

1046
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,040
Yeah.

1047
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,000
And then when he was called by the maid, he came over and pronounced both victims dead.

1048
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,560
And at this point, I guess they had found Abby.

1049
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,160
They were like, Abby, your husband's dead.

1050
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,160
Oh, shit.

1051
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,160
Oh, shit.

1052
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,160
She said too.

1053
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,160
Awful.

1054
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,160
I'm not going to be polite.

1055
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,200
The perpetrator ran upstairs and hurt her too in the matter of minutes.

1056
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,200
Yeah.

1057
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,200
I'm not exactly sure.

1058
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:22,200
Again, this is like from the fucking 1800s.

1059
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,840
So like kind of like hard to get all of the details.

1060
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:25,840
Yeah.

1061
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:26,840
Essentially that's what happened.

1062
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:32,600
Now when questioned, Lizzie's initial answers to the police were strange and contradictory.

1063
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,520
She had initially told police that she had heard like specific noises like around the

1064
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,040
same time as the crime, like in their notes or whatever, like groaning or like, you know,

1065
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,040
grunting or whatever.

1066
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,120
And then she later told them that she didn't hear a thing.

1067
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,440
She was like, oh yeah, I heard stuff.

1068
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:48,440
Actually I didn't hear anything.

1069
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:49,440
I mean, I, I don't know.

1070
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,160
I mean, I watched it happen, but I don't know who it was.

1071
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:52,160
I mean, I don't know.

1072
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,160
Yeah.

1073
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:54,160
Pretty much.

1074
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,760
In the basement, police found two hatchets, two axes, and a hatchet head with a broken

1075
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,160
handle, which was noted as being the murder weapon.

1076
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,160
Okay.

1077
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,120
The hatchet was used so like viciously that it broke.

1078
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,520
And they noticed that the other two hatchets and the two axes had like dust on them.

1079
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:10,520
So like they couldn't have been used.

1080
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:11,520
It couldn't have been those.

1081
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:12,520
Okay.

1082
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:13,520
Which one did the dad use to kill the pigeons?

1083
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:14,520
I don't know.

1084
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:15,520
Maybe it was in the barn.

1085
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,760
Well, that was like a while ago.

1086
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,520
So maybe it was one of those and it was just sitting in the basement for ever.

1087
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:24,520
I like to just speculate.

1088
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:25,520
Throw that out there.

1089
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,520
It's the same one.

1090
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:27,520
Oh, true.

1091
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,520
Oh yeah.

1092
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:29,520
That's true.

1093
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,640
Now, Lizzie and Emma's friend had actually like offered to stay the night with them at

1094
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,440
the house the following night.

1095
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,640
Lizzie wasn't immediately considered a suspect.

1096
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,600
So there was Emma, so they left them there.

1097
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:41,600
I guess they cleaned up.

1098
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:42,600
I couldn't do that.

1099
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,600
They could like stay the night in the same house.

1100
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,880
Police were also stationed around the home that same night.

1101
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,520
Didn't say if it was like a safety thing or a surveillance thing, but either way, they

1102
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:51,520
were around the home.

1103
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:56,000
Now, during this time, an officer had actually seen Lizzie and her friend, not Emma, just

1104
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,160
Lizzie and the friend.

1105
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,760
They like went out of the house and entered like the cellar in the middle of the night.

1106
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,680
They were carrying like a kerosene lamp and a pail.

1107
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,840
And it was later noted that Lizzie was like essentially caught trying to like burn items

1108
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,200
of clothing that she had like brought down there with her.

1109
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,680
Now, it was kind of like weird.

1110
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,480
It was like it was never confirmed to be like the dress she was wearing that day or whatever.

1111
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:18,480
Yeah.

1112
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,240
When questioned about this, she pretty much told detectives like, oh, I had I had gotten

1113
00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,480
paint on those clothes and like I couldn't get it out.

1114
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,440
So I just like so it is them.

1115
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,680
I mean, like as one does.

1116
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:29,680
Clearly.

1117
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,160
Now, Lizzie Borden was eventually arrested for this crime and her trial was held nearly

1118
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,800
a year later on June 5th, 1983.

1119
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,080
After an hour and a half deliberation, Lizzie was found not guilty of murder due to the

1120
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,480
primary evidence being circumstantial.

1121
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,160
Similarly to the case, Anthony.

1122
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:47,160
Because there was no witness.

1123
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,160
Well, this is also the 1800s.

1124
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:49,160
Exactly.

1125
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,680
I mean, it's not, you know, there's no cameras or anything.

1126
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,320
I kind of giggled to myself when you said earlier of the forensic examination and I

1127
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,000
was like, they just don't do that.

1128
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,520
Those are drama ladies.

1129
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,200
Like what was a murder investigation of the 1930s?

1130
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:03,320
Like, I know.

1131
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:05,760
Well, John, John Chalk around the body.

1132
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,960
That way we know where it was.

1133
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:08,960
Exactly.

1134
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,640
Oh, sir, we found a pool of the killer's blood in the hallway.

1135
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,120
He's like, hmm, gross.

1136
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,600
Mop it up.

1137
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,320
Now back to my hunch.

1138
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,680
It's literally what this is.

1139
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,960
Exactly what it sounds like.

1140
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:21,960
Gross.

1141
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,840
Exiting the courthouse, Lizzie told reporters that she was quote, the happiest woman in

1142
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:27,840
the world.

1143
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,440
I'm the happiest woman in the world right now.

1144
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:31,440
My parents are dead.

1145
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,120
Nothing can take away my sunshine.

1146
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,960
It is thought by some that Lizzie suffered from bipolar disorder.

1147
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,520
And that is that case.

1148
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,640
So I'll just really quickly touch on bipolar disorder.

1149
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:42,640
There is two types.

1150
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,280
There is type one and type two.

1151
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,600
I'm not sure which one is which, so I'm not going to pretend to know.

1152
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:53,280
But one of the types is very high highs with depressive episodes.

1153
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:58,320
And the other one is very depressive low lows with manic episodes.

1154
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,520
So either way, whichever one you have, you either experience a lot of mania or a lot

1155
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,400
of depression with spurts of the other.

1156
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:05,800
That makes sense.

1157
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,400
And mania can essentially be it's very broad spectrum.

1158
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,320
It can be like getting up and cleaning your room for the first time in weeks or, you know,

1159
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:20,920
doing like a deep clean of the house or going, you know, on a drive randomly or, you know,

1160
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,640
it can be very extreme, but it can also just be like self care, like a lot of self care

1161
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:26,640
all at once.

1162
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:27,640
Right.

1163
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:31,840
It can be manic episodes and stuff or throwing yourself into a new relationship, things like

1164
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:32,840
that.

1165
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,760
You know, that's a manic that can be in this situation, a manic behavior.

1166
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:42,160
I think when people see the like, you know, the impulse to like clean out something like,

1167
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,840
I mean, I've been cleaning out my room today.

1168
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,160
I did us was almost like, and then going randomly to read a book in the middle of the

1169
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,160
day.

1170
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:51,160
Yeah.

1171
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,520
You know, so it seems like there are things that like normal people would do, but it's

1172
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,440
out of character for the individual.

1173
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:58,440
Exactly.

1174
00:48:58,440 --> 00:48:59,440
Yeah.

1175
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:04,800
And I also want to just note as well, like bipolar disorder, like in the 1800s is much

1176
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,840
different than when Polar Disorder today.

1177
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,240
She probably was just like a normal moody like teen and people just thought she was

1178
00:49:10,240 --> 00:49:11,240
bipolar.

1179
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:15,160
And she was like, yeah, that wasn't really a diagnosis, like a really confirmed specific

1180
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,880
one until recently.

1181
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,640
I would say recently, like within the last hundred years, but you know, I don't know

1182
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:27,240
if this, the sources that I saw that said that they suspected her by bipolar disorder

1183
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,920
were current or they were from time.

1184
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:30,920
So right.

1185
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,960
And again, not diagnosed, just suspected.

1186
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,600
But that is my, it's a write down.

1187
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:37,600
Yeah.

1188
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:38,600
A lot of fun.

1189
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,720
I liked this kind of, you know, because I had.

1190
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:43,520
I have wanted to tackle Lizzie Borden before.

1191
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:44,520
Yeah.

1192
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,400
I just didn't think that there was really enough information to do a very long case about

1193
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,800
it, but I'm glad you covered everything that would be in a case.

1194
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,200
Well, yeah, of course.

1195
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,600
And again, like these three cases specifically, like it wouldn't make sense.

1196
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,400
Like I said, to cover them because none of them were convicted.

1197
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,160
So in the law, in the eyes of the law, they are not killers.

1198
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,480
Of course, everyone has their opinions.

1199
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:07,720
And they just have suspected.

1200
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:08,720
Diagnoses.

1201
00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:09,720
Yeah, exactly.

1202
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:11,920
But yeah, I thought it was really interesting.

1203
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:16,200
Who knows, maybe I'll find a couple more and I'll do another one of these with three new

1204
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:17,200
cases.

1205
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,200
Yeah.

1206
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:19,200
But yeah, that was my mental breakdown.

1207
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:20,680
I'm glad that we were able to talk about that.

1208
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,720
And I told Koel like way before we started, I was like, okay, I was like, I'm just letting

1209
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:24,720
you know.

1210
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:25,720
We do have mental breakdown.

1211
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:26,840
I was like, I'm going to be fact based.

1212
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,320
If you want to be a video maker, you're more than welcome to, but I'm going to be just

1213
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:30,320
facts and stuff.

1214
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,680
I had, I feel like I had to preface it before we started.

1215
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:33,680
Yeah.

1216
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,520
We would have just been having that conversation the whole time recording like, okay, well,

1217
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:37,520
I don't want to do facts.

1218
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,880
I don't want to do anything about it.

1219
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,720
But yeah, so that is that.

1220
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:46,400
We actually just put in another order for some more stickers.

1221
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,520
These ones, instead of having our RSS link, are going to have our Instagram link on the

1222
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:51,520
QR code.

1223
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,440
So we put the order in for our patrons.

1224
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,440
We're going to send those out as soon as we get them.

1225
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:57,440
Really excited about that.

1226
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,560
And also we're talking about maybe getting some, I know we've been talking about pens

1227
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:01,560
and patches for a while.

1228
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,120
That's still in the works.

1229
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,120
But maybe some other merch, like maybe like coffee mugs or like t-shirts.

1230
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:08,600
Something like that would be cool.

1231
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:09,600
Let us know what you think.

1232
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:15,080
If you guys like prefer Epsy or I know like Redbubble does some stuff.

1233
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,480
So let us know what you all would prefer.

1234
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:18,480
For sure.

1235
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,240
And then thank you for the shout out and the case suggestion for Casey Anthony.

1236
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:25,440
If you're listening, the person that sent us that message.

1237
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,000
But yeah, that is all I have for today.

1238
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,000
That was awesome.

1239
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,000
That was good.

1240
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:31,000
Thank you.

1241
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,000
I'm glad you liked it.

1242
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,000
Yeah.

1243
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,000
So we'll be back on Thursday with another case.

1244
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,560
And you can follow us on anywhere on social media at Diagnosing a Killer.

1245
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,560
Did I already say this?

1246
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:39,560
No.

1247
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,600
And patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer if you'd like to donate to the Patreon.

1248
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,640
And then of course you will get a QR code sticker if you do.

1249
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,200
And sponsors.

1250
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:51,200
And sponsors.

1251
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,200
Yeah, check out those paid partnerships.

1252
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:54,200
Thank you all so much.

1253
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:55,200
Yeah, absolutely.

1254
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:56,200
Oh, I sent us an email.

1255
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,200
That's what I was going to say.

1256
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:58,200
Send us an email.

1257
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:59,200
We love you guys.

1258
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,200
All right.

1259
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,200
Love you.

1260
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:08,000
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