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Hello! Welcome back to another episode of diagnosing a killer.

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Damn, that was... Should we like trademark that?

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I don't know, maybe? That was good.

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Yeah.

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I know some people.

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Oh, okay. We know some people in the biz.

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In the biz?

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Who are you?

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I'm Koelle.

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And I'm Kenna.

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Hi.

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I was waiting for you to say at first, which is your case, toots welks.

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Well, how is everyone doing?

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I'm doing okay.

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I am doing really well.

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I know you're asking the listeners, but still.

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I know. I was asking you to.

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Okay.

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You know, want to know about you.

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We sat here for probably 30 minutes already recording some other stuff, and we actually

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haven't really like chatted about anything.

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We've just been like recording the other stuff and like not talking to each other.

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So, here's our chance.

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Yeah, add time. Add time is always a fun time.

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And when you do click on the links, it actually does show us how many times that link has

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been viewed, much like social media.

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So, it does help us out.

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The more you guys take a ganda.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And just browse.

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I love window browsing.

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Oh, me too.

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And I love internet window browsing.

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It's like one of my favorite things ever.

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I like put things in my cart and then I just leave.

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I do that all of the time.

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I did that earlier.

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I go, oh, this sale is good until tomorrow.

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And then I'll just leave it on there.

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And I'll be like, I'll get to it and then sales over with.

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But that's great though, because then it means that I didn't spend any money.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Speaking of putting things in your cart and not buying them, I have a revision from the

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last mental breakdown that we did.

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So, I mistakenly said that they probably going to be coming out with a DSM-5R sometime pretty

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soon because it's been...

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Well, you were correct in thinking that.

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I was.

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It came out early last year.

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So, there is a new revised version.

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I thought you meant like by a few weeks.

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No.

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It was like last, like in the beginning of 2022, they came out with a DSM-5R.

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So, that is the revised version, like we mentioned in our episode, that will have new diagnoses

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in there as well.

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Some of them probably will be taken out as well.

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And then at the back of that book, there will also be reasons why they got taken out and

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the new verbiage if there is.

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Sure.

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I looked it up on Amazon.

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That copy is about $120, $130.

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So, it's a little bit more pricey than the DSM-5.

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But again, definitely worth it to have accurate information, current information.

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Tote's worth.

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Things like that.

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And I put a little edit in the actual episode, like PS, by the way, we know that there is

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a new copy.

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Yes.

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You know, everyone makes this game.

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We just Googled after the fact.

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So, I heard that.

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It's so funny, kind of like the astral plane, like it just came up and I heard it.

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I was like, oh my gosh, we just talked about that.

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So, kind of peppered in there.

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Peppered in.

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But yeah, that was something that I wanted to add.

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And I'm really excited to hear your case.

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Before we get started, I do want to mention our social media.

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We do have Instagram at diagnosing a killer.

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Actually, that is our handle on everything except for Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.

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We have a Patreon setup.

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If you'd like to support us monetarily, you can do that there.

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And we do actually have another very, very nice Instagram message that I'd like to read.

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Ka'well obviously has access to the Instagram, but it's under my login.

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So, she actually doesn't see the direct messages until I tell her and show her.

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So, this is going to be her first time hearing this.

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That's true.

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So, we did get a message earlier today and it was very sweet.

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So, they said, hi, I wanted to reach out.

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Thank you for requesting to follow me.

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That's a great way to gain followers.

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Thank you very much.

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I listened to my first podcast by all today.

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I love True Crime Podcasts and I have caught up with all the ones on one of my favorites.

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And since I drive an hour a lot to my boyfriend, I needed another one to listen to.

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I found a couple I liked but not loved and looked forward to until y'alls.

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I love how y'all tell the story and go into the mental aspect as well.

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I listened to episode 35 but I'm super excited to catch up and hear them all.

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Listening to podcasts has helped me on my long drive since my mom has passed.

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Today is her birthday and I listened to y'alls today.

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I didn't fully listen because my mind was wondering off and getting sad about my mom,

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but y'all helped me snap out of my sadness.

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Thank you so much.

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I am so excited I have found another great True Crime Podcast.

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I am excited to be a big fan.

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And then they also added in, keep up the hard work I'll share with my friends.

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So, that was really sweet.

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Thank you so much.

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It was really sweet.

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And thank you for opening up about, you know, the feels.

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Yeah, of course.

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And I, of course, I responded to, you can see that I respond to every direct message that I can.

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And we really appreciate you guys, you know, giving us your vulnerability,

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but also that we really like to know that we help people get some joy, you know, out of their day.

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And, you know, as much as this is a serious topic podcast with the, you know, the True Crime part of it

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and the psychology, of course, we are definitely pretty goofy people.

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I'm sure you've all realized.

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And we think it's, you know, it's okay to be a little lighthearted in certain times.

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And so I'm glad that you guys are receiving that well.

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For sure.

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For sure.

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And I hope that you find peace and closure.

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Absolutely.

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Same.

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Well, we are going to get into the case and I'm excited to know what you're going to do.

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Today we're going to talk about Susan Smith.

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Okay.

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So we're trying to do this mostly every episode now, but there is a content warning

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and it's going to be a blanket statement for this episode.

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This episode depicts scenes of suicide, sexual assaults of a minor, and familicide, including minors.

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Although these topics are described in a sensitive manner, this subject matter may still be disturbing.

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If this episode isn't for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

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Remember, your mental health comes first and that we love you.

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We love you.

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Bye.

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Susan Lee Vaughn was born on September 26, 1971 to Harry Ray and Linda Sue Vaughn.

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I think it's Vaughn.

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It's V-A-U-G-H.

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It looks like Vaughn, but I think it's Vaughn.

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Like Vaughn.

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Probably Vaughn.

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She had two older brothers and the family lived in Union, South Carolina.

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When Harry and Linda fell in love, Linda was just 17 and Harry was just 20.

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These are Susan's parents.

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Okay.

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And this was 1963.

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Linda was actually pregnant when the couple met, although she kept it a secret from her family and her friends,

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and only told Harry when the couple became serious, to which he replied, with a ring.

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So they got married.

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Okay.

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Already getting married super quickly.

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Yeah.

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Look at them.

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There's like three sentences.

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They got married and they gave birth to their first son, Michael.

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A few short years later, they brought home Scotty and then in 1971, they welcomed their first daughter,

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their only daughter, their last child, Susan.

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Harry, although adored by his daughter Susan, struggled with severe depression and started self-medicating with alcohol when the kids were very young.

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Harry over the years began to become violent around the house, specifically towards his wife, Linda.

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The children remember hiding whenever their parents would start discussing anything that seemed like it would be a tense topic.

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That's awful.

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Isn't that sad?

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I mean, I know people like that, and I'm sure that you do too.

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It's like as soon as you see the conversation going somewhere, I don't know about you, but I like remove myself.

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I'm like, nope, I'm not going to argue with you.

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Harry also started becoming increasingly concerned that Linda was being unfaithful to him, to which seemed highly unlikely,

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since Linda was mostly at home with the kids, or was very transparent about her whereabouts.

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There's a long haul trucker, and that's probably why he thought maybe she was seeing someone else,

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because he would be gone for lengths at a time.

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At certain times, Harry would threaten to kill Linda, and then kill himself in front of the children.

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Not kill her and himself in front of the children, but would say that in front of the children.

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Yeah.

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That's really fucked up.

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Yeah.

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And they're young at this point.

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They're young, yeah.

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This is all while they're growing up.

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I think that, well, Michael was, I think, maybe six or seven years older than Susan.

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Jesus.

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So if Susan was like four or five, which we'll get into, but yeah.

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Yeah, God, that's terrible.

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The household was so tumultuous.

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Michael, Susan's eldest brother, would actually attempt suicide when Susan was just five.

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I think he was like 12 or 13.

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Oh my God.

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Oh my God, how terrible.

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He was like mid teens or like young teens.

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A baby, though.

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He was a child.

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Her brother was unsuccessful, thankfully, but he would be registered to a mental institution

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and would be in and out of institutions while Susan was growing up, like all throughout school.

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Okay.

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Now, with just two children in the house, Susan and Scotty, things only got worse.

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Many other parents and teachers would call Susan reserved, strange, and an overall sad child.

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So we're just going to comment on her behavior and her attitude.

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We're not going to like worry about like helping her get out of there.

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Right.

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We're just going to make it known that she's a sad child.

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They probably didn't know what's going on in the home.

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Ask, maybe.

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Well, you know, she's a different time.

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You know, like the 1930s.

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Okay.

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If there's any people listening that are teachers or anything like that, if you notice a sad child, ask them what's going on.

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Ask them what's going on.

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I think everything's so transparent nowadays.

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Yeah.

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You know, this is she's in 70s.

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She would often dissociate by staring into space and overall seemed aloof or like head in the clouds.

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Yeah.

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Which is probably what they thought.

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Yeah.

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Like she's, she's the funny one that bells.

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She just doesn't care.

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She's just aloof.

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Yeah.

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Even with all the abuse in the house, Susan still loved her dad and she always greeted him with a hug whenever he would come home.

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Susan would be crushed when her mother filed for divorce from her father in late 1977.

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Oh, that's so awful because like, obviously Linda has her reasons, right?

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And so it's awful like the kids.

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It's actually strange to me that Susan is still so infatuated with her dad.

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Like, you know, she is still seeing him in this really great light and then she's devastated when they get divorced.

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So, yeah, clearly there was some sort of whether it was the mom or the dad, there was some sort of, you know, masking the real, real harsh reality of like the situation.

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Maybe just because she was younger and like, maybe the boys were older and I don't know, you know.

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I don't really understand.

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Yeah.

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Like maybe it was like, you know, the mother's nicer to the boys and the father's nicer to the daughter.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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Harry was devastated by this news, of course, and he only began to spy on her more.

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Having had enough just a few weeks after the divorce was filed, Harry came to the house unannounced and he tried to force his way into the house.

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He bashed in the windows to the house and tried to get it Linda and try to get her to talk to him.

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So in order to protect the children, she came outside after some time of him being outside.

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She had already called the police.

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As police arrived on the scene, they witnessed Harry strike Linda in the face.

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Oh my God.

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Fearing that he was a danger to himself or others, Harry pleaded with officers to take him to see a judge that night and not just be released from jail like the next day.

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He was really concerned that he might have hurt himself or someone else.

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Well, I mean, that's saying something.

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So by the time that this occurrence had happened, Linda had actually started dating someone else at this point.

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She had been seeing a man by the name of Beverly Russell or Bev for short.

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Bev was a staunch Republican and a member of the Christian coalition, which I looked it up.

243
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,520
You don't have to.

244
00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:39,520
They're fucking terrifying.

245
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:40,520
Oh wow.

246
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:46,520
Bev was a divorced father of three and all of them were like older than Linda's kids.

247
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,520
So they had, they were already grown up out of the house.

248
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,520
Of course this only hurt Harry much more.

249
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,520
It seemed like it was kind of this ready made family and Harry was just kind of like pushed out.

250
00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:05,520
On January 15th, 1978, Harry would ultimately commit suicide by a self inflicted gunshot wound to the abdomen.

251
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:06,520
Oh my God.

252
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,520
Ouch.

253
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,520
He did not die right away.

254
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,520
He was actually rushed into surgery, but he would succumb to his injuries.

255
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,520
I feel like that's like arguably worse.

256
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:15,520
Yeah.

257
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:16,520
He was just 34.

258
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:17,520
Oh my God.

259
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:18,520
That's awful.

260
00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,520
Of course this devastated Susan who had always thought of her dad as some kind of a hero or breadwinner for the family.

261
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:24,520
Yeah.

262
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:33,520
Susan even hung onto Harry's coin collection and had an audio recording of her dad's voice in a dresser drawer for many years after his passing.

263
00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:41,520
Linda would ultimately marry Bev in 1979 and the whole family would actually move to Bev's sprawling three bedroom home.

264
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,520
And that's definitely different than what they were living in because they were sharing like a two bedroom house.

265
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:47,520
Yeah.

266
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,520
Despite her loss and huge life changes, Susan began to thrive in school, right?

267
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:53,520
We've seen this before.

268
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,520
People throw themselves into school.

269
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:56,520
Yeah.

270
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,520
She was incredibly bright and she was actually part of the A B honor roll for most of her schooling.

271
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:01,520
Okay.

272
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:07,520
She excelled in math, science, Spanish, and volunteered with her Red Cross Club at school.

273
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,520
Volunteering didn't stop here though.

274
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,520
She had also volunteered for the Special Olympics every year and she also worked with the elderly.

275
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:23,520
Susan, however functional she seemed on the outside, would not be able to fully cope with her father taking his own life and her own depression.

276
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,520
She had admitted at some point that at age 13, she tried to take her own life as well.

277
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:28,520
Oh my gosh.

278
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,520
She's like her brother too.

279
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,520
Yeah.

280
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:40,520
And it's really interesting because we always say or think, you know, maybe this will make me closer to this person.

281
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,520
You know, it's really sad.

282
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:43,520
Yeah.

283
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:53,520
And after this attempt and she realized that essentially she couldn't be closer to her biological father, quote unquote, she actually leaned into her relationship with her stepfather, Bev.

284
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,520
The two seemed to be exceptionally close as the years went on.

285
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,520
He was her biggest cheerleader at events and during her successes.

286
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:06,520
And by the time that Susan was in high school, Susan would find herself competing with her mother for her stepfather's attention.

287
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:07,520
No.

288
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:14,520
On one occasion, when Susan was 15 or 16 years old, Susan, Linda, her mother and Bev had begun to watch a movie.

289
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,520
Finding herself tired, Linda went off to bed.

290
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,520
No.

291
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,520
While Susan and her stepfather were watching the remainder of the film, Susan began snuggling up to Bev.

292
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:30,520
She proceeded to put her head in his lap and what happens next is actually not denied by Susan nor Bev.

293
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:31,520
Okay.

294
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:39,520
Eventually he reached into her shirt and began to grope her and eventually he did reach into her pants and he molested her as well.

295
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:40,520
Oh my God.

296
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:45,520
Although Susan would later say that this was a conceptual act, she's incapable of consenting because of her age.

297
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:46,520
Of course.

298
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:52,520
Susan actually told her guidance counselor at school about it and her own mother about it.

299
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,520
And they didn't fucking do anything.

300
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:55,520
Just wait.

301
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:56,520
Just wait.

302
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:03,520
Although her mother confronted her husband about the inappropriate interaction, her mother actually never pressed charges.

303
00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:10,520
And even when Bev had confessed to it happening, like he had completely admitted when he was confronted by Linda.

304
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,520
Like, you know, like a fucking crime.

305
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,520
The two would go on to have three more children.

306
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:17,520
Oh God, no.

307
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,520
God.

308
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,520
And why would you want to stay with someone after that?

309
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:22,520
That's fucking gross.

310
00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,520
So Bev would be forced out of the house.

311
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,520
Linda was like, you're not going to press charges, but you have to move out of the house.

312
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,520
Which like, maybe you should fucking press charges as well.

313
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,520
However, during this time, the three would attend family counseling.

314
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,520
She's like, you got to move out of the house.

315
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:46,520
I'm not going to press charges, but we have to go to counseling because clearly there's like a dynamic happening here with the three of us.

316
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:47,520
Yeah.

317
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:48,520
Him.

318
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:49,520
Yeah.

319
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:50,520
It's not the three of them.

320
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:51,520
It's him.

321
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:52,520
Yeah.

322
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:53,520
Oh my God.

323
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:58,520
It's interesting because like I said, like Susan felt like she was competing against her mother.

324
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,520
So I wonder if there was like the mother was kind of competing too.

325
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:02,520
You know what I mean?

326
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:03,520
But why?

327
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:04,520
I don't know.

328
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,520
It's a weird, it's definitely weird.

329
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:07,520
My God.

330
00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,520
Even with, even with, damn it.

331
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,520
Even with, even with, even with.

332
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:13,520
In English?

333
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,520
Even with, even with Bev out of house.

334
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,520
Even with this.

335
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,520
Sorry for the UK listeners.

336
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:23,520
We're not making fun of you.

337
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:24,520
It just sounds funny.

338
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,520
Even with Bev out of the house, the abuse continued.

339
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,520
So like they were still seeing each other.

340
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:32,520
Yeah.

341
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:33,520
Yeah.

342
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,520
Well, I mean, they're in counseling together.

343
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:36,520
No, no, no.

344
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,520
Correction, they weren't still seeing each other.

345
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,520
He was still creeping on her.

346
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,520
Yeah, he was being a pedophile.

347
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,520
Absolutely.

348
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:44,520
That's fucking disgusting.

349
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,520
Although the counselor had reported the incident to police when it was time to go to court.

350
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,520
So the counselor did report there was going to be an investigation.

351
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:55,520
They were already going to go to court for it.

352
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,520
Susan denied the allegations.

353
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,520
Like at first it was like, oh, like I just made it up.

354
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,520
Like I would ever I told the counselor I was just looking for attention.

355
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:05,520
Yeah.

356
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:06,520
Because she didn't want him to get in trouble.

357
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:07,520
Because she didn't want him to get in trouble.

358
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,520
That is brainwashing at its fucking finest.

359
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,520
So the case was dropped.

360
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:18,520
That poor girl, she doesn't even fucking know who she's defending or like why she has to

361
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:19,520
lie.

362
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,520
Oh, that's so gross.

363
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,520
When Susan was about 16 or 17 years old, she began working at a local grocery store for

364
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:26,520
extra money.

365
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,520
Here she met her 40 year old manager who was married.

366
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:30,520
No.

367
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,520
And began to have an affair with him.

368
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,520
She actually, yeah.

369
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,520
She actually began another affair with a 30 year old assistant manager as well.

370
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:45,520
And when the 40 year old found out not only about the coinciding of fares, but that Susan

371
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,520
was also pregnant.

372
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:48,520
Yeah.

373
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,520
He like lost his shit and broke up with her, right?

374
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,520
Oh, okay.

375
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:53,520
Yeah.

376
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:54,520
Okay.

377
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:55,520
He broke up the relationship.

378
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,520
You're gonna go now because I'm gonna go now.

379
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:58,520
Like this is bad.

380
00:17:58,520 --> 00:17:59,520
It's the real world.

381
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,520
Maybe you shouldn't be fucking a 17 year old when you're 40.

382
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:08,920
Susan would have an abortion and having become attached to very easily, she was distraught

383
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,520
over losing both partners.

384
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:11,520
I'm sorry.

385
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,520
I misspoke.

386
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,520
It was the 30 year old that found out about the other affair.

387
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:16,520
Either way.

388
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,920
Both men left.

389
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,520
She had an abortion and she once again tried an attempt on her life.

390
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:24,520
Oh my God.

391
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:25,520
That's so awful.

392
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:31,320
This poor girl just has like such a bad history with relationship with her father.

393
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:32,520
And then of course her stepfather.

394
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:33,520
Stepfather, yeah.

395
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,520
She doesn't know what a healthy relationship with men is.

396
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:36,520
Right.

397
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:37,520
It's so awful.

398
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,520
She was admitted into a hospital and she would be monitored for weeks, a few weeks.

399
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,520
Like close to a month, I think.

400
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,680
During her stay, the nursing staff found it very odd that although Susan would cry and

401
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:54,620
sob all night long once alone, during visiting hours she was very cheerful and bubbly to

402
00:18:54,620 --> 00:18:55,620
people.

403
00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:56,620
Okay.

404
00:18:56,620 --> 00:18:58,520
So she was able to put on a persona.

405
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,240
Quote on quote normal or typical, right?

406
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,760
Typical behavior.

407
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,360
It was during her stay in the hospital that doctors would actually diagnose Susan as having

408
00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:07,640
an adjustment disorder.

409
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,240
It's because of her age probably.

410
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,400
From the Mayo Clinic, this is directly from their website, an adjustment disorder is a

411
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,360
stress-related condition.

412
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:21,560
You experience more stress than would normally be expected in a response to a stressful or

413
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,280
unexpected event.

414
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:28,320
And these stresses cause significant problems in your relationships at work or at school.

415
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,800
These things may be brought on by work problems, going away to school, an illness, a death

416
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,800
of a close family member, or any number of life changes.

417
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,480
Most of the time people can adjust to such changes within a few months, but if you have

418
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,080
an adjustment disorder, you continually have emotional or behavioral reactions that can

419
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,480
contribute to feeling anxious or depressed.

420
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,800
Some signs of this disorder can include feeling sad, hopeless or not enjoying things you

421
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:59,440
used to, frequently crying, worrying or feeling anxious, nervous or jittery, trouble sleeping,

422
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,700
lack of appetite, difficulty concentrating, feeling overwhelmed, difficulty functioning

423
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:09,480
and daily activities, withdrawing from social support, avoiding important things such as

424
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,600
going to work or paying bills, suicidal thoughts or behavior.

425
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,160
Symptoms of an adjustment disorder start within three months of a stressful event and last

426
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,480
no longer than six months after the end of the stressful event.

427
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:25,560
However, persistent or chronic adjustment disorders can continue for more than six months,

428
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,320
especially if the stressor is ongoing, such as unemployment, right?

429
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:30,320
So the stressor-

430
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,320
Or being taken advantage of by someone twice your age.

431
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,320
Yeah, absolutely.

432
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:34,320
Yeah, clearly.

433
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,320
For sure.

434
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,480
Soon after Susan's return to work, Susan's high school friend David would actually begin

435
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,640
working at the store as well.

436
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,000
David Smith was a year older than Susan and was the second of three biological kiddos

437
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,400
and he also had one stepbrother who was older but didn't necessarily live in the house.

438
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:55,440
First was Billy from his mother's first marriage and then Danny and then David and then Becky,

439
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:56,960
so we're talking about David.

440
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,560
His father was a Navy veteran and the family was brought up in a devout Jehovah's Witness

441
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:01,560
home.

442
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:06,320
David's mother tried to shelter the kids from the outside world as best she could.

443
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,680
She worked two jobs and was also going to school for nursing.

444
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:15,280
His father, after serving two terms in Vietnam, had come home and managed a shoebox store.

445
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,880
A box store, not a shoebox store.

446
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,480
All they have is shoeboxes.

447
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,480
Yeah.

448
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,760
While the kids were growing up, David's parents became disillusioned with each other and mainly

449
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,120
argued about his mother's commitment to her religious beliefs.

450
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:34,080
David's father didn't like that his wife sheltered the kids as much as she did and thought

451
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,200
that the kids were being robbed from life experience.

452
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,800
While in high school, David began dating a young lady named Christie.

453
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,360
There was another episode we did recently where the girlfriend's name was Christie.

454
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,000
I think it was the Menendez brothers and you were like, he started dating a girl named

455
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,680
Christie and you sang it.

456
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,680
So this was also Christie.

457
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,280
There's Christie and then there's Christie.

458
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,360
So Christie was kind of cool.

459
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:02,960
Even from Christie's perspective, David and his siblings were actually deprived from social

460
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,360
exposure and could recognize that his upbringing was considered abnormal.

461
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:12,320
Christie said that David actually hadn't experienced Christmas ever until David was invited to

462
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:13,920
her family's Christmas one year.

463
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,560
I've heard people that have experienced that.

464
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:17,560
Yeah.

465
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:18,560
Yeah.

466
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:24,720
David began to see how his mother's intentions had actually hindered him and by age 16, 17,

467
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,120
David began pulling away from his mother and began to denounce his mother's religion

468
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:29,120
and entirety.

469
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:30,120
Wow.

470
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:31,920
Entirely, not entirety.

471
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,720
After this, the household became incredibly hostile, almost between everyone.

472
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,120
David decided to follow in his brother's footsteps, Danny, who had moved from their

473
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:45,400
house into their great-grandparents' house, which was like just a few houses down or

474
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,040
like next door in a nearby property.

475
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,000
So David and Danny moved out.

476
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,880
Even with all this, David was a hard worker and after beginning to work at the grocery

477
00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,480
store, David and Susan were due to graduate high school in 1989.

478
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,800
So Susan has returned to work right after her hospital stay.

479
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,600
With the same creeps?

480
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,600
Yeah.

481
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,120
Well, I think one of them still worked there.

482
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,720
I don't know if the 40-year-old did, but the 30-year-old definitely did.

483
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,800
Andy, you'll hear why.

484
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,120
So she returns to work and David and Susan would kind of reconnect because they knew

485
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,120
each other from high school.

486
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:21,800
And I don't know if they really knew each other.

487
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,880
I think it was just because they knew that they went to high school with each other.

488
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:32,840
So keep in mind that David is still with Christie and David and Susan would actually, David and

489
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,320
Susan would begin a casual arrangement.

490
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,320
You can get what I'm saying.

491
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:39,320
Soup's cash.

492
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,640
Soup's cash arrangement, yeah, soup's cash.

493
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,320
But David has a girlfriend, right?

494
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,000
Christie, a long-term girlfriend.

495
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,360
They dated almost all throughout high school.

496
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:52,800
Susan would come to find that she was pregnant after a year of the two engaging in consensual

497
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:53,800
hookups.

498
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,680
I'm sorry, but like, come on.

499
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,320
She was just 19.

500
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,960
With this news, David had no other option but to come clean with Christie and he broke

501
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,840
off their relationship.

502
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,880
He wanted to support Susan and I'm assuming it was a mutual decision that they didn't

503
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,440
want to go through a procedure.

504
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:12,960
So he wanted to support her.

505
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,160
It was probably, like I said, a personal decision.

506
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,960
So David felt like he was doing the right thing when he then proposed to Susan.

507
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,840
Sounds like her mom.

508
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,680
At this point was two months along.

509
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,560
The two would come to accept that their dreams of attending college may be put on the backburner

510
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,080
for now, which is something that both of their families were not happy about.

511
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,080
Oh yeah.

512
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:39,360
Furthermore, Susan's mother Linda and her stepfather, step-bother, yeah, he is a bother.

513
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:40,360
Yeah, he is.

514
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:45,280
And her stepfather Bev were disappointed that Susan would marry a man who is not an economical

515
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,520
match for their family.

516
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,800
What the fuck does that mean?

517
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,880
I don't know what Linda's fucking talking about.

518
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,120
She was married to fucking, what's his face over here, you know, but like you moved into

519
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:01,600
this giant fucking house, like you can be like, oh, like he's not up to par with like

520
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,600
our standards.

521
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,840
Yeah, we only marry pedophiles in this family apparently.

522
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,280
Well, yeah, that sounds bad, but like Jesus.

523
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,560
Either way, the couple was really optimistic and they really wanted to like thrive on nothing

524
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:17,560
but love.

525
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,400
They kind of had this like world-wind.

526
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,320
Susan and David leaned on each other for the support that they had craved pretty much their

527
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:24,560
whole lives.

528
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,960
And they did blissfully live with the notion that their love for each other and the love

529
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,400
that they had for their future family would be enough to carry them through anything.

530
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:32,400
Oh no.

531
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,400
This is against the world.

532
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,800
It sounds so lovely.

533
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,200
Susan was just three months pregnant when David would lose his older brother Danny to

534
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,880
a long battle of complications with Crohn's disease.

535
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:42,880
Oh no.

536
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:43,880
Very, very sad.

537
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:44,880
Oh.

538
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,800
Encouraged by some of their family members, the two decided to marry just 11 days after

539
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,400
the passing of David's brother.

540
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,960
Wow, 11 days.

541
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,920
It was also somewhat forced by David's mother since she was worried that Susan would be

542
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,280
showing in photos if they were to postpone the wedding.

543
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,200
They can't just get married like way later on, like when they're ready?

544
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,200
No, that's impossible.

545
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,200
They have to get married now.

546
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,200
Okay.

547
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,800
And they would know that they would have a baby out of wedlock.

548
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:10,800
And who wants that?

549
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:11,800
Oh, of course.

550
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,520
Although David had been working on building a house on the property of his great grandparents,

551
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,040
the house was incomplete and when the couple got married, instead of supporting David in

552
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:27,280
his endeavor to build the couple a private space, Susan was turned off to the progress

553
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,520
and insisted that the couple live in the home with his great grandparents as she was used

554
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,920
to a, quote, certain type of lifestyle and not a, quote, tin-roofed shack.

555
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,440
Oh.

556
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,120
It didn't appeal to Susan.

557
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:43,160
I guarantee you she also wanted to be taken care of by his grandparents.

558
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,160
Oh, I'm sure.

559
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,480
She wants to live in the nice house.

560
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,680
She doesn't want to do things for herself, it seems like.

561
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,680
Yeah.

562
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,040
She doesn't even want David to do things for themselves.

563
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,960
By May, Susan was five months pregnant and unfortunately around this time, David's father

564
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,680
tried to commit suicide by overdose.

565
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:58,680
Oh my God.

566
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,400
It's like one thing after another.

567
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:01,400
Yeah.

568
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:02,400
One thing after another.

569
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,600
That is so awful.

570
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,960
He was found sprawled on the floor of his family home and his father would be admitted

571
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,680
to the hospital.

572
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,360
He would survive and after this he was actually treated for severe depression.

573
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:16,280
He was just unable to deal with the loss of Danny.

574
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,880
He was just very unable to come.

575
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,160
Oh, that's so sad.

576
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,240
But he would eventually get home and he would be fine.

577
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:28,040
During this time, David's mother would find all of this too much to handle and would actually

578
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,400
separate from David's father and moved away.

579
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,960
Yeah, like that's going to make it better.

580
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,160
Yeah, that makes it better.

581
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,600
It's just brokenness between the two families.

582
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,880
It's just brokenness.

583
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,760
His father would ultimately remarry after meeting another woman who was actually in

584
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,160
the hospital while he was getting treated.

585
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,160
So.

586
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,640
Like she was a patient as well?

587
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,440
I don't know if she was a patient.

588
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,760
I thought she was like a nurse or something.

589
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,240
He was pretty happy, I think, afterwards.

590
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,240
That's good.

591
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,320
Susan would continue to work at the grocery store until the couple gave birth to their

592
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,920
first child, Michael Daniel.

593
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:07,360
So Michael after her brother and then Daniel after Danny, the one that just passed.

594
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:11,280
So named after the baby's two brother or two uncles, brother.

595
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,440
Little Michael was born on October 10th, 1991.

596
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,520
And after Michael's birth, Susan found it within herself to begin college courses.

597
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,120
However, soon after Michael's birth, the couple began to have financial issues.

598
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:27,040
This wasn't like typical financial issues, however, okay, because we always hear this,

599
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,040
right?

600
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,000
The couple did well as far as their finances.

601
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,960
The two were both working or living off savings that they had accumulated while they were

602
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,720
waiting for Michael to come along.

603
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,800
But Susan was experiencing a bit of like binging habits when it came to spending.

604
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,000
David was getting increasingly frustrated with Susan when she was complaining that the

605
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,960
family wasn't wealthy enough or didn't live in the most luxurious surroundings.

606
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,240
This was like a huge point of contention for the couple.

607
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,320
David felt like the life that they led was more than sufficient for a family of three.

608
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,800
However, Susan felt that the financial situation had the potential to be more rewarding and

609
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,000
felt that her husband was just penny-penching.

610
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Oh, okay.

611
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,080
He's like, I don't know, I just want to stuff, you know, like have food.

612
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,640
And yeah, shelter and survive.

613
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,280
Yeah, and not like giant coats.

614
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,880
Susan would begin to approach her mother and stepfather for supplementary income, like

615
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,480
for herself and like maybe the baby.

616
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,040
Jesus Christ.

617
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:29,920
Furthermore, Linda, Susan's mom, would constantly come by the property unannounced and decided

618
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,520
to just like make the visits about like lecturing them on their like life decisions.

619
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,200
It was very irritating.

620
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,360
Instead of, you know, like coming around to see her grandson.

621
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,360
Yeah.

622
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,840
David felt like after these visits, Susan would quickly adapt to Linda's wants and

623
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:45,840
wishes.

624
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,920
And after Linda would leave, Susan would all of a sudden express the same concerns as

625
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,760
her mother, furthering the conflict between the husband and wife.

626
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:53,760
I hate that shit.

627
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:54,760
Me too.

628
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,360
Throughout the first year of their marriage, the couple experienced more than a few fallouts.

629
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,680
Susan would insist that David would leave and go to his parents' house when they would

630
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,760
have arguments and then seemingly try to work on things with David by suggesting that he

631
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,480
moved back in, like all the time.

632
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,480
You can leave the house that I moved in with you in, it's not even my house, but you can

633
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:12,480
leave.

634
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,080
Yeah, she thinks it's like her house, like the great-grandparents' house or her house.

635
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,480
I didn't, you know what, where are the great-grandparents?

636
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:18,720
Because I don't even think they talked to her.

637
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,720
They might have inherited the house.

638
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:20,720
They might have.

639
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,720
Their grandparents might not be around anymore.

640
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,000
Susan was still working at the grocery store, and almost one year to the date of their wedding

641
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,800
anniversary, Susan would reveal that she had had an affair with the same 30-year-old assistant

642
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,800
manager as before.

643
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:34,800
During their marriage?

644
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,600
Like within this last year.

645
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,560
Like since they got married and they had my goal.

646
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,480
She was sleeping with this guy still.

647
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:43,480
Or at some point.

648
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:49,680
By 1992, the couple had done this back and forth multiple times, but in November 1992,

649
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,880
Susan would announce that she was pregnant yet again with the couple's second child,

650
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,960
Alexander Tyler.

651
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,040
With this new revelation, David and Susan agreed that they would try to make their marriage

652
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,040
work.

653
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,200
Some things needed to change though, and one of which was that the couple were to move

654
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,640
into a turnkey home so that they could have the space that Susan really craved.

655
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,240
What is a turnkey home?

656
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,560
Just means that it's like, it's like, it's like brand, essentially brand new.

657
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,600
Or it's like re-modeled or whatever.

658
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,360
It just means that there's no work that needs to be done.

659
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,840
So this is like a standard that Susan was kind of like expecting.

660
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,680
So Susan approached her mother and her stepfather about providing a down payment on a ranch-style

661
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:30,680
house.

662
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:31,920
They complied.

663
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,420
This pregnancy was very different from Susan's first.

664
00:31:34,420 --> 00:31:40,040
She constantly complained about being lethargic, weepy, and she struggled with body image issues.

665
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,680
She called herself fat and ugly regularly.

666
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:43,680
Like you're pregnant.

667
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,760
It makes me sad when pregnant women say that.

668
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,200
Dude, you're not fat, you're beautiful.

669
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,640
I think it's just because you feel so out of control.

670
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,400
You're not in control of your body.

671
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,080
Even though in a weird way you're kind of the most control of your body because you

672
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,880
control everything that goes into it and everything you expose yourself to.

673
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,680
But yeah, it does feel like it's kind of out of control.

674
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,280
You get acne and stuff too.

675
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,520
It's completely different than what you look like.

676
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:18,000
David did his best to support his wife through this very tough time and was likely thankful

677
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,160
that she was vocal with her struggles instead of keeping them inside like she had before.

678
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,960
However, Susan was almost indignant about David's attempts to kind of be a part of what she

679
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,360
was experiencing too.

680
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,120
She would express, she would complain, but anytime you'd be like, oh, let me help you

681
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,080
a little bit, she'd be like, ugh, you're annoying.

682
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,080
I hate that.

683
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Yeah.

684
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,240
She would rarely communicate about their son Michael's progress throughout the day.

685
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,040
She would clam up when David would ask questions about what they did around the house that

686
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,040
day.

687
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,040
Just simple stuff.

688
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,040
Yeah.

689
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,040
Like, what did you do today?

690
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,040
I don't know.

691
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,040
I don't know.

692
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:54,040
I just hung out.

693
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,040
I just like hung out.

694
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,040
I did the shoes.

695
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,040
Like, what do you want from me?

696
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:58,040
He was a baby.

697
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,040
He cried.

698
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,040
You know?

699
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:05,040
You sound like Kelly, the, let's get some shots.

700
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,040
Oh my God.

701
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,040
Shouts.

702
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,520
I thought it was like, what are you going to do today?

703
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:12,520
Oh, yeah, that was it.

704
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,520
What do you want to do today?

705
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:14,520
I don't know.

706
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,520
What do you want to do today?

707
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,520
You didn't know yesterday?

708
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:17,520
Yes, I did.

709
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:18,520
And I don't know.

710
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:19,520
I don't know.

711
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:20,520
I don't know.

712
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:26,200
The couple were hardly romantic and physical, probably because of Susan's clear depression,

713
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,200
right?

714
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,440
Because that can affect your libido as well.

715
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:34,320
David was beginning to get tired of his wife as well.

716
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,200
David himself was still working at the grocery store.

717
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,280
And while Susan was pregnant with their second child, he began to have an affair with a cash

718
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,160
year named Tiffany Moss.

719
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,160
He also had an affair.

720
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:47,160
I was a 30 year old manager.

721
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,200
He was the same 30 year old manager.

722
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,000
So now there's four people engaged in this, well, at least at one point with her, engaged

723
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,120
in this adultery and they're all working in the same place.

724
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,120
Yeah.

725
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,120
It's stupid.

726
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,760
It just sounds like a fuckfest.

727
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,320
Susan caught wind that something was amiss and would frequently come up to the store

728
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:14,080
and yell at David while he was working, accusing him of set affair and however many others

729
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,080
that's unsuspected.

730
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:16,080
Oh my gosh.

731
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,440
Yeah, it seems like a happy family.

732
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:19,760
That's gonna help.

733
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,640
In August 1993, their second child, Alex, was born.

734
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,040
Alex's birth was actually unusual as well.

735
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,880
There were some complications.

736
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,320
So unfortunately Susan had to have an emergency C-section.

737
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,280
The couple once again put aside their differences and they welcomed their second child into

738
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,200
the world and allowed Susan to recover.

739
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,920
Within a month, the couple would decide that although they wanted to be devoted parents,

740
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,240
they themselves as a couple probably wouldn't work out.

741
00:34:45,240 --> 00:34:47,640
Couldn't imagine why.

742
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,320
David decided to move out to his parents' home while the two would come up with some

743
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,320
kind of a custody agreement in the meantime while ultimately pseudo deciding on divorce.

744
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,440
They knew they didn't want to be together anymore.

745
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,560
Knowing that David very well maintained his affair that he was having with the cashier,

746
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:06,400
Tiffany Moss, and knowing that her past and discussions were also probably gonna be looked

747
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,840
at, Susan was like, I'm gonna look for employment elsewhere.

748
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,840
Oh, okay.

749
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,760
I can't imagine why.

750
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:21,160
So in 1993, Susan began to work as a secretary for the Conso products company and eventually

751
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,360
began working for a man by the name of Jay Finley.

752
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,440
Jay hired Susan as his personal secretary after some time of her working there and Susan felt

753
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,520
really successful in this role.

754
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,280
She was able to see this kind of luxurious lifestyle because he was the company owner

755
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,280
or something.

756
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:37,280
Yeah.

757
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:44,280
She would be essentially finding Finley flights and flowers for the office and just-

758
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,480
The Devil Wars product.

759
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,880
Yeah, she's the fun secretary.

760
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,720
Just a lot of expenditures that her and David weren't really used to.

761
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:53,720
Yeah.

762
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:56,680
It was really interesting for her to see kind of this lavish lifestyle.

763
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:03,400
So through Jay Finley, Susan would meet her new love interest, Finley's son, Tom Finley.

764
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,400
Oh no.

765
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:05,400
Yeah.

766
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,600
Tom was handsome, successful, a young man who worked for the graphic design department.

767
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,800
Susan would find a new friend group at work and through various parties and bar gatherings,

768
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,080
Tom and Susan started to become pretty close.

769
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,080
Okay.

770
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,280
Oftentimes the young and single Tom would throw parties at his place where coworkers

771
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,040
and friends would come over and party all night long on kind of an isolated property

772
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,600
that he owned and drinking in the hot tub and what have you.

773
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,760
Quickly Tom and Susan would begin an affair because remember, she's still married at this

774
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:36,760
point by the way.

775
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,120
They decided on divorce, they haven't filed paperwork.

776
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,800
One that almost everybody at the office seemed to know about as well.

777
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,800
They're separated though.

778
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:46,800
Sure.

779
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:53,480
David and Susan would be on and off again during this time, David had actually moved

780
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,000
into his own apartment and bought all this nice furniture and stuff which probably just

781
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,320
pissed off Susan.

782
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,000
He even quit seeing Tiffany Moss, the cashier.

783
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,640
He quit seeing her.

784
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,080
He really thought that him and Susan were going to work on this relationship.

785
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,080
Cute.

786
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,080
Love it.

787
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,080
Okay.

788
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:14,880
Just everything was going so slimmingly, like everything was so amicable and like all the

789
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,200
stuff, so David's like, surely this will work at some point.

790
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,720
However Susan would fall pretty hard for Tom.

791
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:25,920
Tom wasn't so thrilled when he learned that although Susan and David weren't living together,

792
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,520
that she was still legally married.

793
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:33,160
That's all Susan needed to hear in order to serve David with the motherfucking paperwork.

794
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,160
Citing that David was the one that was unfaithful.

795
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:37,840
Therefore, divorce.

796
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,840
You had an affair in the past but now I'm actively having an affair but it's still your

797
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:41,840
fault.

798
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:42,840
But it's still your fault.

799
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:50,440
So Susan filed for divorce in September 1994 and shortly after that, Tom and Susan would

800
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,480
pick their relationship back up.

801
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,120
Susan applied to night school and she seemed to be doing well around this time.

802
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:03,160
However, on more than a few occasions at Tom's parties where various other gatherings, Susan

803
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,960
would get intoxicated and regularly throw herself at other men in front of Tom.

804
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:08,960
What?

805
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:09,960
She'd be flirting.

806
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,720
She'd even be touching other co-workers' husbands.

807
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:19,280
And on one occasion, she began to undress, getting fully nude in Tom's hot tub and

808
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,960
encouraging others to join her.

809
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,760
That's so embarrassing.

810
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,760
That's really embarrassing.

811
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:25,760
I'm blushing.

812
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,560
That's so embarrassing.

813
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,960
You are the secretary to the boss.

814
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:31,960
To the boss.

815
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:32,960
The big boss.

816
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:33,960
And you're dating his son.

817
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:34,960
Yeah, exactly.

818
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,960
And everybody knows.

819
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:36,960
Ugh.

820
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:37,960
Ugh.

821
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,960
You're married with two kids at home.

822
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,960
Uh-uh.

823
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,960
No, ma'am.

824
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,960
Loving a pet is easy.

825
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,960
Losing a pet is hard.

826
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,960
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828
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829
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830
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831
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832
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833
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,680
Needless to say, this affair only lasted for about a month.

834
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,320
I'm sure that Tom loved her devotion to him, but Tom wasn't ready to settle down with

835
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:36,040
Susan, who essentially had a ready-made family with two kids, who clearly had some, as Tom

836
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,320
would put it, boy crazy tendencies.

837
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,320
Okay.

838
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:40,320
That's what he said.

839
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:41,320
Wow.

840
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,320
Susan tried to reassure Tom that her children had nothing to do with the relationship.

841
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,320
They already had a father and she wasn't looking to replace David.

842
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,200
However, this argument went escalate as the two mulled over these relationship issues.

843
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,760
And Susan began to get very infuriated.

844
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,640
She began to tell Tom that he wasn't the only person she was having an affair with

845
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,640
at work.

846
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:00,640
She's like, well, you know what?

847
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:01,640
Fuck you then.

848
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,640
It doesn't matter.

849
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,280
I have other people I can go have sex with if I want to.

850
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,960
She claimed that before and during the relationship that she had with Tom, she was also sleeping

851
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,160
with his father, Jay Finley.

852
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,160
What?

853
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,800
Like her direct boss, like the whole time.

854
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,200
And he, I don't know if she was sleeping with him before she even got hired, because

855
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,280
like she kind of just got this like secretary position, like under, you know what I mean?

856
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,320
Do you think that's why she got the position?

857
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:26,320
Maybe.

858
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,920
But then he's just like cool with her dating his son after that too?

859
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:29,920
I don't know.

860
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:30,920
That's weird.

861
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,600
Well, I guess he can't have a relationship with a subordinate.

862
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,120
So maybe he just didn't give a shit.

863
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,320
Or maybe he like couldn't give a shit.

864
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,320
Yeah.

865
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:39,920
And like Tom worked for a different department.

866
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,480
So it would have been okay.

867
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:46,640
You know what I mean between Susan and him, but not with like the father and her, you

868
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:47,640
know?

869
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:48,640
Ew, that's weird.

870
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,480
Tom was shocked, but that wouldn't be the only tea that Susan would be spilling this

871
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:53,480
day.

872
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:54,480
Oh no.

873
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:58,240
So she was talking about her sympathy from Tom and explain away her behavior.

874
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:04,400
She told Tom that only did her and her stepfather engage in what she considered to be consensual

875
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,440
sexual activity.

876
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,040
But that still to that day, she was still sleeping with her stepfather.

877
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,400
No fucking way.

878
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,160
That is so gross.

879
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,760
And she's like dragging about it.

880
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:16,840
She's like 23 now.

881
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:17,840
Yeah.

882
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,400
I don't know if she was bragging about it.

883
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,560
I think like apparently it was delivered in a way that was like, I just can't help it

884
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,800
because like I've been sleeping with my stepfather.

885
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:27,800
Yeah.

886
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,760
Like essentially he abused me and therefore I am that way.

887
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,320
Yeah, but I'm still having sex with him.

888
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,320
Yeah, exactly.

889
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,720
As I'm saying, you can't play the sympathy card like, oh, I was taken advantage of, he

890
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,000
abused me and then be like, but I'm still doing it.

891
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,880
Like this sounds bad and she is 100% a victim.

892
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:41,880
Oh, sure.

893
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:42,880
Yeah.

894
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,960
I'm not trying to say otherwise, but she is continuing to do it after she knows that

895
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:46,960
it was wrong.

896
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:47,960
Yes.

897
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:48,960
That he did that, right?

898
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:50,000
Even though in her mind at that age, it was consensual.

899
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,080
It's not legal.

900
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:52,400
She clearly knows that now.

901
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:53,400
Yeah.

902
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,920
She's still continuing to do it.

903
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,280
There's no sympathy for that, right?

904
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,640
In my mind after she becomes of a certain age and she continues to do it.

905
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,560
Do you think there's like a reclamation there?

906
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,040
Like do you think like she continues to sleep with her stepfather now as an adult and it

907
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,800
be consensual or believe that it's consensual and because she felt like it wasn't kind of

908
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,440
consensual then?

909
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:15,840
So now it's like, I'm an adult.

910
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:16,840
I can make this decision.

911
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:17,840
Now it's my choice.

912
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:18,840
And now it's my choice.

913
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:19,840
Maybe.

914
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,000
Like it overrides that feeling of being taken advantage of.

915
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:28,520
I would feel like, I mean, I don't know how anyone would feel in that situation, but I

916
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,200
would assume that you would be angry with the person after you found out that it was,

917
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:39,040
in fact, you know, you were being taken advantage of and stuff and not fully forgive and just

918
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,680
be like, oh yeah, let's just keep doing that.

919
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,480
And the fact that she's married and she has having this affair with other people, what

920
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:46,800
does the stepdad have to do with any of that?

921
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,720
He doesn't even need to be in the picture if she has her husband and then this guy,

922
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:54,440
you know, Tom and allegedly the boss or whatever.

923
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,960
Do you think that she was telling Tom that like, but it wasn't true?

924
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:58,960
Or do you think that?

925
00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:59,960
No, it's true.

926
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:00,960
Oh, it's true.

927
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:01,960
Yeah, it's absolutely true.

928
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:02,960
Because yeah, well, we find out later.

929
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:03,960
Oh, okay.

930
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:04,960
Geez.

931
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,080
So yeah, all of this is going on, right?

932
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,240
I don't know if it's more of like, let me just shock the shit out of you.

933
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:10,680
And then, you know, I don't know.

934
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,680
Or like feel bad for me.

935
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,800
It's like people, like when you're in an argument and like all they can do is like call you

936
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,680
fat or ugly, you know, it's like, oh great, like a low blow, you know, like, and is it

937
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:20,960
like, I don't know.

938
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,400
Am I just trying to say things to hurt you?

939
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,840
Yeah, to like break you down and then therefore you're going to come, you know?

940
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:28,840
Yeah.

941
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,240
Tom not intending to stay with Susan, but simply wanted her to leave his home because

942
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:34,160
this was happening at his home.

943
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,520
He placated Susan and essentially told her what she wanted to hear just to get her off

944
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:38,920
the property.

945
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:44,200
He promised to still show up to a lunch date that he, Susan and a few coworkers had planned

946
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,200
for the next afternoon.

947
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,720
Susan believed that Tom and her could mend their broken relationship and Susan left the

948
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,840
Findlay property in order to head back home.

949
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,400
The next morning on October 25th, 1994, Susan felt optimistic about the prospect that her

950
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,080
and Tom could work something out.

951
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:07,640
She woke up with the boys, she fed them breakfast, got them dressed and took them to daycare.

952
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,320
Michael and Alex were three and one at this point.

953
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Susan then went to work and steamed down for sure, but she made it through the first half

954
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,080
of work and then took off to meet the group for lunch.

955
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,400
Tom did show up, but it was clear that he was pretty much uninterested in having more

956
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,360
than a few words exchanged with Susan.

957
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,040
She didn't like that.

958
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:28,040
No.

959
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,040
Not at all.

960
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,340
By the time Susan got back to work, she was a mess, like all over again.

961
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:38,200
She asked her supervisor if she could go home and her coworkers agreed, but kind of also

962
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680
asked Susan if she was feeling okay.

963
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,680
Susan kind of broke down and began to pretty much explain what was going on in her life

964
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,800
and that she wasn't feeling well and all this stuff.

965
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,160
Later she relieved some of that pressure.

966
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:56,920
However, Susan stayed for another two or three hours at work, but she wouldn't be working.

967
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:02,920
She kept trying to corner Tom at work, following him around, calling his office to meet up,

968
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,880
and at one point she tried to return an orange sweater left in her car or something, like

969
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:08,880
girls desperate.

970
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:09,880
Like an excuse to see him.

971
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:10,880
Exactly.

972
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:11,880
Like, I like having her with me.

973
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:12,880
I know you want to be back.

974
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,320
Tom expressed that he didn't want to be with Susan and in fact he was appalled that she

975
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,680
was having an affair with his father.

976
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:19,680
Yeah.

977
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,280
Do you not get that?

978
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,400
After work, Susan drove to the daycare and picked up her kids.

979
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,240
While she was in the daycare parking lot, she actually ran into a co-worker named Sue.

980
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:35,680
Susan told Sue a bit about what was going on and convinced Sue to follow Susan over

981
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,560
to the local bar, which she knew that Tom was going to be there.

982
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,800
And she was like, I just want to confront Tom, but can you watch my kids?

983
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:43,800
Oh my God.

984
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,200
Like, he doesn't want to fucking talk to you.

985
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:52,320
So, eventually Susan left after some discussion, but Sue stayed behind.

986
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:53,320
Sorry, it's confusing.

987
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,320
Susan, Sue.

988
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:55,320
Yeah.

989
00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,080
Susan left with her kids and Sue stayed behind to eat and have a few drinks.

990
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,440
This is like right down the street from their work, I'm assuming.

991
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,720
It was like, or either that or it's the only bar.

992
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:11,560
So at some points, like Tom was kind of sitting a few bar stools down from Sue.

993
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:17,440
At one point, Susan called the bar and asked to speak with Sue and was like, did he ask

994
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:18,440
about me?

995
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,440
Oh my God.

996
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:20,440
Yeah.

997
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,440
What is he saying?

998
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:22,440
Can you tell him this?

999
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,440
Can you ask him this?

1000
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,800
And Sue was like, he hasn't said anything about you.

1001
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,600
Like, he's not going to talk about, like, don't call here.

1002
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:29,600
Yeah.

1003
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,640
Why are you calling the bar and interrupting my meal?

1004
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:32,640
Yeah.

1005
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,840
He wasn't talking about her at all, which again, pissed her off even more.

1006
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:35,840
Of course.

1007
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:41,160
Around 8 p.m., Susan decided to dress up the boys and pile them back into the car.

1008
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,280
Susan claimed that she wanted to go to Walmart with her sons since they were getting fussy

1009
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,960
and she thought that a drive around would help.

1010
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,680
About an hour later, while on their way back to the house, while stopped at a red light,

1011
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,520
Susan was shocked when a man approached her window with a gun and ordered Susan out of

1012
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,080
the red 1990 Mazda protégé.

1013
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,080
What?

1014
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:06,800
Susan got out of the car and the man, the man, the man, the man, Susan got out of the

1015
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,720
car and the man hopped into the driver's seat and took off with her children in the

1016
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:11,720
back seat.

1017
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:12,720
No!

1018
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:14,360
Oh my God, no, I would be so scared.

1019
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,920
Susan ran towards the first John D. Lake neighborhood house that she could see, screaming,

1020
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:20,120
please help me.

1021
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,120
He's got my kids.

1022
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,720
A black man has got my kids in the car.

1023
00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:28,800
The homeowner is called the police while trying to relay as much information from Susan to

1024
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,040
them about the instance.

1025
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:36,320
She explained the story to the homeowners describing the car and in which direction the perpetrator

1026
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:37,320
went.

1027
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,320
She said it headed towards the highway.

1028
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:44,760
So immediately one officer was dispatched to Susan and the other was dispatched to the

1029
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,160
highway to see if they could intercept.

1030
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,920
Susan asked the homeowners if she could then call her mother after police arrived, that

1031
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,960
if she could call her mother and then she called David.

1032
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,080
Her mother didn't answer.

1033
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,280
Police interviewed Susan swiftly as they knew that time was a factor in finding the

1034
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,120
children safely.

1035
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:09,200
Susan maintained her story of being carjacked at a light but couldn't provide a real clear

1036
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,840
description of the suspect, just that it was a black male.

1037
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:26,400
Police also noted what Susan was wearing, white jogging pants and an orange sweater.

1038
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,560
After some of the family gathered in the area of the last known whereabouts of the children,

1039
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:36,760
it was suggested that the family gather at a set location at one family member's home

1040
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:42,360
so that any news would be relayed to all of them at once, which makes sense to me.

1041
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,560
So they were going to go to Susan's family home.

1042
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:51,560
Susan rode with David to her family's home and found it odd when Susan began talking

1043
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:56,720
about calling Tom when they got back to the house and that Tom would likely want to come

1044
00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:00,040
over and that David would just have to accept that and not be mad about it.

1045
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,600
Tom just has to be here for me.

1046
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,600
He's going to want to be here for sure.

1047
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:03,600
Yeah, he's going to want to be here for me.

1048
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,880
She's using that to get him to talk to her.

1049
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,320
Once home, investigators would come by to get a composite sketch of the perpetrator.

1050
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:16,120
Susan had a very difficult time describing the man, speaking about little details such

1051
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,560
as the man's eyebrows or cupid's bow.

1052
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:24,560
But as previously mentioned, she gave very vague descriptions on bigger things like nose,

1053
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,880
eye color or even mouth shape, which is unusual.

1054
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,280
Because if you can see their eyebrows or what this looks like, you couldn't tell me

1055
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:33,720
what their eye color was.

1056
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:35,600
You got closed.

1057
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,080
If anyone doesn't know what a cupid's bow is, it's like the top of your, like between

1058
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,080
your nose and your mouth.

1059
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:41,080
Yes.

1060
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:42,080
It's the shape on your lips.

1061
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:43,080
Some people don't know.

1062
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,080
I didn't know what that was until recently.

1063
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:46,880
Oh, like just now?

1064
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,000
No, I knew what it was.

1065
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,560
I found out, I guess, called it like a couple years ago.

1066
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:51,720
I forget what this is called.

1067
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:53,560
This is called something down here, too.

1068
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:55,360
If anybody knows what the bottom lip.

1069
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,880
Bottom lip anti-cupid's bow is called.

1070
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,800
Ultimately, it was determined that the man was in his forties, a dark knit, he wasn't

1071
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:04,800
a dark knit cap.

1072
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:12,440
He had a dark knit cap, black or dark jeans and t-shirt and a plaid jacket on.

1073
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:13,440
Very vague.

1074
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:19,120
The next day, October 26th, investigators began to search the John D. Lake area, which

1075
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,960
is kind of like a park area, but it does have a lake.

1076
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:28,280
No sign of the car or the boys by helicopter, boat or on the ground at all.

1077
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:34,920
The same day, Tom did call to talk about the boys, but Susan insisted on talking about

1078
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,080
them ending their relationship instead, which Tom was disturbed by.

1079
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,080
Children are missing, and that's what you want to talk about?

1080
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,080
She's like, when are you going to come over?

1081
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,080
Are we going to fix this?

1082
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:46,080
Are you going to come over?

1083
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:47,080
Are you coming over?

1084
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,080
Oh my gosh.

1085
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,080
Yeah.

1086
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,200
The Adam Walsh Foundation, do you know who Adam Walsh is?

1087
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,960
So Adam Walsh is John Walsh.

1088
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,520
He was the host for America's Most Wanted.

1089
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:00,560
Like that guy?

1090
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:09,320
His son was actually kidnapped from a grocery store.

1091
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,440
And he's part of the reason why certain things like Amber Alerts exist, but they called them

1092
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:15,440
Code Adams.

1093
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:20,160
Maybe you heard of a Code Adam, where a child is missing, you lock down the store, no in

1094
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,660
and out at all.

1095
00:51:21,660 --> 00:51:28,320
So Code Adams, the Adam Walsh Foundation is a memoriam of little Adam that was kidnapped.

1096
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,680
Code pink in the hospital.

1097
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:36,000
So they actually wanted to come meet with Susan and David and suggested that the couple

1098
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,400
make a public plea for the safe return of the boys.

1099
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,720
Statistically, it is more likely that information will be volunteered when the public sees the

1100
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:46,080
parents of kidnapped victims.

1101
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,760
Reluctantly, Susan and David agreed.

1102
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,920
I feel like this is going to be like a Chris Watt situation.

1103
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,240
Susan was to be the person to speak and plead with the public.

1104
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:02,320
Her statement is as follows, or at least a little bit of it.

1105
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,480
To whoever has our boys, we ask that you please don't hurt them and bring them back.

1106
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,000
We love them very much.

1107
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:13,200
I plead to the guy, please return our children to us safe and unharmed.

1108
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,560
Everywhere I look, I see their play toys and pictures.

1109
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,600
They are both wonderful children.

1110
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,640
I don't know who else to put it and I can't imagine life without them.

1111
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,080
Their wonderful children.

1112
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,840
That seems a little detached in my opinion.

1113
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,840
But you know, everyone believes differently.

1114
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,920
These interview tapes are really interesting or these public announcement tapes are really

1115
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:41,120
interesting if you ever watch them.

1116
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,800
Investigators take Susan downtown for another interview.

1117
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:48,840
The interview lasted about six hours and Susan repeated her story many times.

1118
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:54,760
The next day on the 27th of October, both David and Susan agreed to a polygraph test.

1119
00:52:54,760 --> 00:53:01,000
And although David's showed no deception, Susan's was inconclusive.

1120
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:06,120
Most notably, the most questionable topic being, quote, do you know where your children

1121
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:07,120
are?

1122
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:08,120
End quote.

1123
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,480
I don't like that.

1124
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,800
Susan began to change her story a little bit when confronted that no one was reported

1125
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,160
seeing Susan and the boys at Walmart like she had claimed she had gone.

1126
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:23,480
Susan admitted that she didn't go into Walmart at all because it would sound suspicious if

1127
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:28,400
she claimed that she drove around for hours with her kids in the car.

1128
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,360
That's not how that works.

1129
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,360
That's not how that works at all.

1130
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:33,360
You lie?

1131
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,360
I drove around for a couple hours.

1132
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:37,360
That's more so.

1133
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,760
Furthermore, the light that Susan claimed that she was stopped at when this carjacking

1134
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,400
happened is constantly green at this time of night.

1135
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,120
The only time that the light would turn red is when another car is traveling across this

1136
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:57,600
road triggering the sensor to change the lights, meaning that if Susan was sitting at this

1137
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:03,560
red light and she was carjacked, someone would have witnessed it or at least seen them.

1138
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,120
Actually, yeah, that's a really good point.

1139
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,840
No one had come forward stating that they had seen this happen, and this was national

1140
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,280
news at this point.

1141
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,240
David was questioned about him and Susan's marriage, and David admitted that the two

1142
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:24,720
had been having affairs on each other, and he said that she was talking to Tom Finley.

1143
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:28,960
David stood by his belief that Susan would never harm their children, and it was honestly

1144
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:33,760
beginning to become more upsetting that investigators were focused on their marriage instead of

1145
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,760
finding their boys.

1146
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,600
Susan herself, when asked if there would be any reason that she would want to harm her

1147
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:45,920
children or want her children to disappear, Susan said, quote, no man would make me hurt

1148
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:46,920
my children.

1149
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,640
They were my life, end quote.

1150
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,000
No one said anything about any man.

1151
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,640
No one said anything about that.

1152
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,600
They said, was there a reason that you would hurt your children?

1153
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:57,600
No man would make me do that.

1154
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,360
Sorry, that's not what we fucking asked.

1155
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,360
Also, they were my life.

1156
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,920
I didn't even catch that, ew, oh my god it is fucking Chris Watts.

1157
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:13,520
Oh my god, like that is a big red flag, like the person that-

1158
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:14,520
Past tense.

1159
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:19,040
They know that they're gone, that's why they're using that verbage, ew I don't like

1160
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:20,040
that.

1161
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:26,760
The public plea was looked over by investigators along with some recordings and personal one-on-one

1162
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,440
interviews.

1163
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,760
They noticed that Susan showed emotion but never cried.

1164
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,760
Oh, crocodile tears?

1165
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:35,360
Yeah, well not even tears.

1166
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,320
Like she's just like, I don't know how I'm gonna-

1167
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:40,320
It's real bad.

1168
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:41,320
That's-

1169
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,000
When I thought about researching this case, all I could think of where there's like news

1170
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,800
reports of her just being like, I just want you to return my babies because she's got

1171
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:51,280
this real thick accent.

1172
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,400
It's awful.

1173
00:55:53,400 --> 00:56:00,040
I don't understand how people don't realize that it's very obvious when they're like quote

1174
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,000
unquote crying but there's no tears.

1175
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,480
It's very clear that you're not actually crying so why did people try to fake it?

1176
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:08,480
I don't get it.

1177
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:09,480
No idea.

1178
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:14,560
I think I don't remember what episode of something I was watching but it was somebody

1179
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,920
where they kept wiping their face and it was like-

1180
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:17,920
There was no tears.

1181
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:22,960
There was no tears and if anything it made their face kind of red where it almost looked

1182
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:23,960
like they were crying.

1183
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:24,960
Yeah.

1184
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,280
It was really interesting.

1185
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,280
People are wild and out.

1186
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,640
October 28th would come and go.

1187
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,760
Investigators still searching for the missing children.

1188
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:40,480
Speculation in the public began to rise that it was unlikely that a black man in his 40s

1189
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,120
toting around two white babies surely would have been noticed by somebody right now.

1190
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:45,120
That's a good point, yeah.

1191
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:46,120
Yeah.

1192
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,440
But yeah, that was- a lot of the black community was pissed because they're like, there's no

1193
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:51,440
way.

1194
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:52,440
There's no fucking way.

1195
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:53,440
Yeah.

1196
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:54,440
When it's national news.

1197
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,680
And it's just making like a really bad cloud like go over the community.

1198
00:56:58,680 --> 00:56:59,680
Yeah.

1199
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,440
It was either the man disposed of the children somehow or it was all a fucking lie.

1200
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:04,440
Yeah.

1201
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,680
Not to mention that this case was huge like I said and at this point surely at least the

1202
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:10,080
car would have been found.

1203
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:11,580
Yeah, exactly.

1204
00:57:11,580 --> 00:57:14,480
Like I don't care how ludicrous it sounds if this man knew that they were looking for

1205
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,880
this fucking car containing two white kids he'd be like, nope, like I'm gonna ditch this

1206
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:20,440
car somewhere, right?

1207
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:21,440
Exactly.

1208
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:26,880
On October 29th, Susan and David were reached out by an American journal reporter who had

1209
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,240
also lost his daughter due to a kidnapping.

1210
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,240
Oh no.

1211
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,920
And he wanted to talk to Susan and David about what happened that day.

1212
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:39,520
After days of trying to arrange a meetup, Susan still refused.

1213
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,320
Like refused to be interviewed.

1214
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:45,240
Like by this person who had also lost a child.

1215
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:46,480
She's like, no thanks, I don't want to help.

1216
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:47,480
Yeah.

1217
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:48,480
Like I'll pass on that.

1218
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:49,480
Like-

1219
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,360
I'm not helping, he was the young lady at Arty with that murder.

1220
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:53,360
No, no, I know.

1221
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:54,840
I met her at her kids' investigation.

1222
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:55,840
Oh yeah, for sure.

1223
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,160
Like she's like, no thanks, I don't need to be interviewed, I don't really care about

1224
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:00,160
your situation.

1225
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,480
So I'll just kind of like, no, no thanks.

1226
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,120
Well that's what was even more suspicious is because like she would just feel fucking

1227
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:07,120
guilty.

1228
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,120
Yeah, exactly.

1229
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:12,040
You know, talking to somebody who like actually like a perpetrator actually killed this man's

1230
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:13,040
daughter.

1231
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:14,040
Exactly.

1232
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:19,880
So over 31st, a phone call to police in Union from Seattle held hope.

1233
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:27,760
A 14 month old child was found abandoned by a man who had South Carolina plates in Seattle.

1234
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,440
He matched Alex's description and the family was over the moon that one of the boys had

1235
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:32,440
been found.

1236
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:33,920
How long ago was this?

1237
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:35,760
How long after they disappeared was this?

1238
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,640
Oh this is days, this is like five days.

1239
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,600
So there's plenty of time allegedly for someone to get from South Carolina to Seattle.

1240
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:42,600
Sure.

1241
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:43,600
In the car.

1242
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:48,120
So it was the 31st and they were taken on the 25th.

1243
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:49,520
So six days.

1244
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:55,240
However, it was quickly determined that the boy was not Alex Smith.

1245
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,960
Another press conference was to be held and the couple would go on national television

1246
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,120
to discuss the circumstances surrounding the investigation so far.

1247
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,680
On November 3rd, Susan and David were set to do three television interviews all in the

1248
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:08,800
morning.

1249
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:13,440
When asked if she had any involvement in concealing her children during the interview, Susan says

1250
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,520
quote, I didn't have anything to do with the abduction of my children.

1251
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,680
Whoever did this is a sick and emotionally unstable person end quote.

1252
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,360
AKA me.

1253
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,840
Interview after interview was exhausting for the couple and the agents could see that Susan's

1254
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:33,680
deterioration with each question was more and more apparent.

1255
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:39,440
Around 1.30pm in the afternoon, Sheriff Howard Wells and Susan began another interrogation

1256
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,120
this time within the walls of a church.

1257
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:50,280
Being asked again where her children were, Susan began to sob, like actually sob.

1258
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:51,760
I was going to say like real sob this time.

1259
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,120
Like real cry.

1260
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:56,840
She started saying quote, I'm so ashamed.

1261
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,800
I'm so ashamed.

1262
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:05,880
She then asked calmly for Sheriff Wells gun because she wanted to kill herself.

1263
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:07,440
Which of course he was like what?

1264
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:08,440
No.

1265
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:09,440
Absolutely not.

1266
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:10,440
Absolutely not.

1267
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:11,440
That's not possible ma'am sorry.

1268
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:12,440
That's not critical.

1269
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,200
But she didn't admit anything yet.

1270
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:15,200
She just said I'm so ashamed.

1271
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:16,200
I'm so ashamed.

1272
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:17,200
Give me your gun.

1273
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:18,200
Yeah.

1274
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,080
And he began to ask why, what and console her.

1275
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:22,080
It's so scary.

1276
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:27,320
She said quote, you don't understand my children are not all right end quote.

1277
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,040
Susan started on the day that the crime took place.

1278
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:34,560
Stated that she had never felt so low before and she wanted her pain to stop.

1279
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:39,640
She felt like she had messed up her whole entire life and sought to take her own life.

1280
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:45,040
She drove the boys to the edge of John D Lake and put on Tom's sweater and decided

1281
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,320
that she was going to die with her children.

1282
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,440
She didn't want to leave them behind without their mother.

1283
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:55,280
After attempting to put the car into drive three times but stopping herself, she enabled

1284
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:56,680
the parking brake.

1285
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:00,760
She stepped out of the car, reached inside and released the parking brake sending her

1286
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:06,480
children into the lake.

1287
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,640
She said that she loved her children and that she regretted the action immediately.

1288
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:15,320
But after standing there watching the car sink into the lake, she did nothing.

1289
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,400
It took about six minutes for the car to fully sink before Susan ran to the nearest neighbor's

1290
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,720
house.

1291
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,040
So she had six whole fucking minutes to do something.

1292
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:27,040
Yeah.

1293
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,640
No, I'm sorry, way longer than that because she couldn't put the car in drive three

1294
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:32,840
times and then did.

1295
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,600
First of all, I never understand the I want to kill myself.

1296
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,080
So I'm going to kill these people with me.

1297
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,800
I never understand that fucking mindset.

1298
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,240
And then to completely change it around and be like, oh, okay, well, I'm not going to

1299
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:46,440
kill myself, but I'll go ahead and just kill my children.

1300
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:48,800
Like what the actual fuck.

1301
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:52,280
Just like in the Gilbert Jordan case, we kind of touched on that, that he probably wanted

1302
01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,840
to drink himself to death, but he would never do it.

1303
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:56,480
You know, that's so awful though.

1304
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:57,480
These babies.

1305
01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:58,480
They're babies.

1306
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,480
They're three and they're one.

1307
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,600
Sheriff Wells immediately contacted field agents to gather divers for another search

1308
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:06,160
of John D Lake.

1309
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,240
The car was eventually located and both Michael and Alex were found still strapped to their

1310
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,760
car seats.

1311
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:16,920
After Wells arrested and transported Susan, instead of driving to the scene, he headed

1312
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,560
to the Russell home to break the news that although the boys were found, they were not

1313
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,920
alive and that in fact Susan had killed them.

1314
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:30,440
And before the news could get to it, obviously, do you think at one point she was like, you

1315
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:35,720
know, maybe Tom will talk to me now that I'm going through this terrible tragedy?

1316
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:36,720
Yeah, absolutely.

1317
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:37,720
I believe that.

1318
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:38,720
God.

1319
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:40,640
I think that she thought that.

1320
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:45,680
The family was in shock, of course, although David had had his suspicions about his wife.

1321
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:49,840
He had always believed Susan when she said that she would never harm the children.

1322
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:54,960
Even after learning about the deaths of their son, David tried to believe that Susan either

1323
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,600
falsely confessed where it was an accident that she needed to cover up or that she had

1324
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,600
a mental break of some kind.

1325
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:03,520
Either way, he didn't believe that it was intentional.

1326
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:04,520
Yeah.

1327
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:06,720
I mean, how could you?

1328
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:11,480
This is someone that you've been married to or at least been an apparent partnership

1329
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:17,680
with for many years, at least three years, now probably four years.

1330
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:21,760
You don't want to immediately believe that that person's capable of something like that.

1331
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,440
And David had always described Susan as a wonderful mom.

1332
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,280
He always did.

1333
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:30,880
After learning of the deeper details, the affairs and the time that it took to sink

1334
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:35,760
the car, David kind of changed his tune towards Susan.

1335
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:40,320
Susan was put on a 24-hour suicide watch for the eight months before her trial since it

1336
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,400
was determined that she may be a harm to herself or others.

1337
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:48,280
I mean, shit, she asked the cop for his gun before she even confessed.

1338
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:52,680
The following February, after multiple evaluations, it was determined that Susan suffered from

1339
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:55,560
dependent personality disorder.

1340
01:03:55,560 --> 01:04:00,360
A dependent personality disorder in the DSM-5 is described as a pervasive and excessive

1341
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:07,280
need to be taken care of that leads to submissive and clingy behaviors and fears of separation

1342
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:13,280
beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five

1343
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,400
or more of the following.

1344
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:20,000
One has difficulty making everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and

1345
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,000
reassurance by others.

1346
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:28,000
Two needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of their life.

1347
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:33,960
Three has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because of fear of loss, support,

1348
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:34,960
or approval.

1349
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:40,000
Four has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on their own because of lack

1350
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:45,800
of self-confidence and judgment or abilities rather than a lack of motivation or energy.

1351
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:52,680
Five goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others to the point of volunteering

1352
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,800
to do things that are unpleasant, which I found.

1353
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,720
Yeah, you can see that.

1354
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:03,720
Six feels uncomfortable or helpless when alone because of exaggerated fears of being unable

1355
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,880
to care for oneself.

1356
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:10,800
Seven urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close

1357
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:11,800
relationship ends.

1358
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,240
Which is, yep, that's Susan.

1359
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,800
Seven eight is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of

1360
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:21,800
themselves.

1361
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,080
So, really.

1362
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,480
That's really interesting and the funny thing is that when you said adjustment disorder

1363
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:31,200
way earlier on in the episode, the first thing that came to my mind was dependent personality

1364
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:32,440
disorder and I didn't say it.

1365
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:34,680
I was thinking it and I was like, well, just wait.

1366
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:37,360
I feel like she meets the criteria for this.

1367
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:38,360
For sure.

1368
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:41,480
But again, she was young when she was diagnosed with adjustment disorder.

1369
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,440
I was like, let me see if they catch on to dependent personality disorder.

1370
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,680
I actually just recently heard about that one.

1371
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:52,600
I didn't actually, I haven't ever studied that one before recently and I just heard

1372
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,440
about it and just learned about it recently.

1373
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:57,480
So that's interesting that you brought this case.

1374
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:01,920
Well, I think a big buzzword sometimes is codependency.

1375
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:02,920
Yeah.

1376
01:06:02,920 --> 01:06:07,240
But to literally have it as a disorder, like a diagnostic disorder, it's pretty interesting.

1377
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:08,600
That is really interesting.

1378
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:13,920
Psychiatrist Dr. Seymour Halleck said that Susan, quote, feels like she can't do anything

1379
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,000
on her own.

1380
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,600
She constantly needs affection and becomes terrified when she believes that she will be

1381
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:19,600
left alone.

1382
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:21,120
End quote.

1383
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:25,080
During these evaluations, it was revealed in the courtroom that Susan had maintained a

1384
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:30,600
sexual relationship with her stepfather for the last eight to nine years.

1385
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,880
Shortly after, Linda left Bev and filed for divorce.

1386
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:34,880
Wow.

1387
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:35,880
That's, I mean, shit.

1388
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:36,880
Yeah.

1389
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,520
I personally would probably leave the first time that someone did that, even if it wasn't

1390
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:41,520
isolated incident.

1391
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:42,840
Yeah, I'm prosecuting.

1392
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:43,840
Yeah.

1393
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:46,960
But finding out however many years later that it's been ongoing.

1394
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:47,960
Oh my God.

1395
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:48,960
For like eight or nine years.

1396
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:52,280
I can't imagine how gross Linda felt like learning that.

1397
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,440
That's your fucking daughter.

1398
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:59,640
Bev wrote to Susan in shale saying, quote, my heart breaks for what I have done to you.

1399
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:03,840
I want you to know that you do not have all the guilt for this tragedy.

1400
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:05,720
End quote.

1401
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:07,240
Now you want to take some fucking responsibility.

1402
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:08,720
What a martyr.

1403
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:09,720
God.

1404
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:12,680
Susan's defense team offered a plea deal.

1405
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:17,080
Susan would plead guilty to the crime to spare anyone from having to go through trial, first

1406
01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:22,520
of all, for a 30 year to life sentence without parole, just to not have the death penalty

1407
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,120
on the table, essentially.

1408
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:31,320
The judge denied this and furthermore insisted that the trial take place within Union County,

1409
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:32,320
like where it occurred.

1410
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:33,840
Because I mean, it's small county.

1411
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:34,920
It's true.

1412
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:41,200
Just everyone in Union knew exactly what had happened, knew these people, very integrated

1413
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:42,800
into what was happening.

1414
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:50,040
So the defense team tried to plea and say, we want the trial moved to like another county

1415
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,440
where this isn't happening for a fair trial.

1416
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:53,720
The judge denied that too.

1417
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:54,720
He's like, no.

1418
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:56,440
No, we're not going to do that.

1419
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:03,160
But the judge also reassured the defense team by saying, I doubt very much that her neighbors

1420
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:08,440
and friends are going to find the death penalty out of this, which kind of makes sense a little

1421
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:09,720
bit.

1422
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,400
It was just that the severity of the crime was so severe that he could not take death

1423
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:14,400
off the table.

1424
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:15,640
Yeah, I don't blame him.

1425
01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:16,640
Shit.

1426
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:17,640
I mean.

1427
01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:22,000
After Susan was diagnosed and placed on medication, the judge found her competent to stand trial.

1428
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:27,480
Of course, the defense painted Susan as a woman that had a real mental diagnosis, which

1429
01:08:27,480 --> 01:08:28,720
she did.

1430
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,000
And that had, it had never been treated.

1431
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,440
And eventually she did have a mental break.

1432
01:08:33,440 --> 01:08:38,040
The prosecution portrayed Susan as a promiscuous woman who only wanted to continue a relationship

1433
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:42,560
with a man who didn't want children, not to mention the frenzy that she created by putting

1434
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,680
the black community in jeopardy through her lives.

1435
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,760
I didn't even think about the fact that, yeah, you're right.

1436
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:49,640
Tom was like, I don't want to be a father.

1437
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:52,680
And that might have been another thing that she was like, well, you don't have to be,

1438
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,680
you know, and that sounds really bad.

1439
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:55,840
But I didn't even think about that.

1440
01:08:55,840 --> 01:09:00,840
And also, yeah, that's like really awful that she just was like, oh, yeah.

1441
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:01,920
I was a black man.

1442
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,320
Like seriously, you just like ruined the stigma.

1443
01:09:05,320 --> 01:09:07,560
Are you just like caused a stigma against that community?

1444
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:08,560
It's like no fucking reason.

1445
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:09,560
Yeah, for no fucking reason.

1446
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:10,560
And it happens a lot.

1447
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:12,080
It's not the only time that that's happened.

1448
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:15,920
Men have been, I mean, men and women in the black community have been murdered because

1449
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,120
of that because they think that they're taking down this perpetrator who's like this bank

1450
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,280
robber or, you know, or whatever it is.

1451
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:27,760
And they're looking for a specific person and they just, because of racially profiling

1452
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:33,320
someone, they think that's the perpetrator and the guy doesn't know the person doesn't

1453
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,320
understand what's going on.

1454
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:36,320
And they get shot and killed.

1455
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:40,440
I mean, you know, over nothing because of somebody's fucking lie.

1456
01:09:40,440 --> 01:09:44,360
Because someone doesn't want to take accountability for what they fucking did.

1457
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:49,800
On July 22nd, 1995, it took the jury just two hours to hand down the verdict of guilty

1458
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,760
on both counts of murder.

1459
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:58,680
The same jury would actually determine her sentencing as well, and in a heartbreaking

1460
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:05,320
testimony, David expressed how his life was changed forever beginning October 25th, 1994.

1461
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:09,240
He said, quote, all my hopes, all my dreams, everything that I plan for the rest of my

1462
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:10,680
life ended.

1463
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,800
I didn't know what to do.

1464
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:18,040
Everything I had planned on, my kids, my life were gone, end quote.

1465
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,400
I mean, like you don't ever think that your kids are going to be taken away from you.

1466
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:25,000
You don't ever think that you're going to outlive your kids.

1467
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:26,640
Like that's awful.

1468
01:10:26,640 --> 01:10:27,640
Poor David.

1469
01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:29,800
Yeah, he's, yeah.

1470
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:33,800
And even like his home life, you know, was kind of rough too.

1471
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:38,520
A very unusual piece of evidence was presented to the jury in the sentencing hearing.

1472
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:44,320
They were shown a reenactment video of the inside of a car, the same year, same model,

1473
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,840
as the car that the boys drowned in from the boys' perspective.

1474
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,640
It was like a video camera in the back seat.

1475
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:50,640
Oh my God.

1476
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:52,680
Water rushed through the car.

1477
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,480
The windows broke under pressure.

1478
01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:59,120
The courtroom was completely silent as the video rolled on for six long minutes.

1479
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:01,120
Oh my God, I have full body chills.

1480
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,400
That is so heavy.

1481
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:06,400
Oh my gosh.

1482
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,320
Like that's pulling at your heartstrings.

1483
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:10,320
Yeah.

1484
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:11,320
Aren't they not allowed to do that?

1485
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:12,360
This is just for the sentencing.

1486
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:13,360
This is not for the trial.

1487
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:14,360
Oh, okay.

1488
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:16,360
I see.

1489
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:23,520
On July 27th, 1995, Susan was sentenced to 30 years to life in prison with the possibility

1490
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:25,640
of parole.

1491
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:30,280
Susan over the years has stood by her defense's explanation that she was struggling with mental

1492
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:34,760
illness, even from her young age of being sexually abused to the immense amount of

1493
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:39,520
postpartum depression that she had after the birth of her children.

1494
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:44,360
In 2015, she wrote, quote, I am not the monster society thinks I am.

1495
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:46,320
I am far from it.

1496
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:48,120
Everything went very wrong that night.

1497
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,000
I was not myself.

1498
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,600
I was a good mother and I loved my boys.

1499
01:11:52,600 --> 01:11:56,760
There was no motive and that's why it wasn't a planned event.

1500
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,560
I was not in my right mind, end quote.

1501
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,600
So that was in 2015.

1502
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,280
Back up just a little bit, 2001.

1503
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:11,320
Susan had been caught smoking weed and was actually caught with various contraband.

1504
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:12,320
While in prison?

1505
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:13,320
Yes.

1506
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:17,680
Susan had sexual relationships with two guards.

1507
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:22,800
Here we go again, inappropriate relationships with men like her whole life.

1508
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:27,360
These two guards were tried and convicted for having sex with a person unable to give

1509
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:28,360
consent.

1510
01:12:28,360 --> 01:12:29,360
I don't know if you know that.

1511
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:30,360
The prisoner isn't able to give consent.

1512
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:31,360
Yeah.

1513
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,360
That's, well good, fuck those guys.

1514
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:34,360
Yeah.

1515
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:35,360
And of course they were fired.

1516
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:39,320
Well, but then again, like who knows how many other women they've probably taken advantage

1517
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:41,920
of in their work, the time that they're working there.

1518
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,480
Well, one has actually been interviewed by like Barbara Walters or something because he

1519
01:12:45,480 --> 01:12:50,000
was like, you know, was talking about how manipulative and how cunning she is and how

1520
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,800
she deserves to be in prison for the rest of her life because if she gets out, she's

1521
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:54,000
just going to do it to more people.

1522
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:55,000
Well, yeah.

1523
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,120
And if he, I mean, not to say that it's, he doesn't have any fault.

1524
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,720
Of course he does in that scenario, but she probably was really convincing.

1525
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:02,720
It's true.

1526
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:04,160
I mean, he's been a power position.

1527
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:05,560
He is a corrections officer.

1528
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,280
Like he, no, it's absolutely his fault.

1529
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:09,280
He did the wrong thing.

1530
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:10,280
He did the wrong.

1531
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:11,280
He did the wrong.

1532
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:12,280
He did the wrong.

1533
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:17,720
Susan is housed in the Camille Griffin Graham Correctional Institution in South Carolina.

1534
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:22,240
She is eligible for parole in 2024.

1535
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:23,240
Just next year.

1536
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:24,240
Wow.

1537
01:13:24,240 --> 01:13:25,240
Okay.

1538
01:13:25,240 --> 01:13:28,000
Some fireworks crack a lacquan.

1539
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:31,880
David Smith is now happily married with two beautiful kids.

1540
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:35,000
He has said that the pain he experienced at the hands of Susan will follow him for the

1541
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,160
rest of his life.

1542
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:40,880
He said when he first started thinking about potentially marrying someone or having children

1543
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:43,120
again, he was terrified.

1544
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:49,240
But all of that changed with the birth of his first child, Savannah, who he had with

1545
01:13:49,240 --> 01:13:50,240
Tiffany Moss.

1546
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:51,240
Oh, the girl here.

1547
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:54,240
The woman he's under fair with.

1548
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:59,080
I thought that was kind of a cute little happy ending, like a little like time.

1549
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:00,920
The cashier for this, from the store.

1550
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:03,720
I love that.

1551
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,920
He said, quote, I looked at Savannah and she was looking at me and I promised I wouldn't

1552
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:12,720
be afraid to love her and take care of her and always protect her and be there for her.

1553
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:16,720
It's really sweet.

1554
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:22,520
He said about the surprise conception because it was, quote, I think God knew for me to

1555
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:26,680
have any more children, it would have to be by chance.

1556
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:31,560
He didn't think that he would ever want, like he could get over that and like that it would

1557
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:32,560
scare him too much.

1558
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:36,640
So, you know, this conception was like, okay, this is handed to me.

1559
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:37,960
Wow, how cool.

1560
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:38,960
It's really interesting.

1561
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:45,480
Yeah, so Tiffany Moss and David, they married for a little bit, I think they got a divorce,

1562
01:14:45,480 --> 01:14:50,040
but then he had another child named Nicholas and he is still married today.

1563
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:55,640
He said, I've said it before, I admit to being a lousy husband, but I've always been

1564
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:57,800
a good father to my kids.

1565
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:01,240
So yes, so he has Savannah and Nicholas now.

1566
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:03,960
He said, quote, I enjoy being a father very much.

1567
01:15:03,960 --> 01:15:07,000
For me, there is no greater love in the world than the love of a child.

1568
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,000
I'm still here.

1569
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,680
I'm still making it every day.

1570
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:11,840
Wow, good for him.

1571
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:12,840
I know.

1572
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:13,840
Oh, that's so sad.

1573
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:14,840
Isn't that?

1574
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:15,840
What a story, man.

1575
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:17,720
I did not expect any of that.

1576
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:23,640
It's so funny because like I was having this conversation with someone yesterday about

1577
01:15:23,640 --> 01:15:28,320
talking about past relationships and like, you know, how awkward it can be.

1578
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,800
Like when you're like kind of talking to somebody or like whatever.

1579
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,760
And I said like, I think it's really important to talk about your past relationships and

1580
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:39,400
to know where certain things come from and why it didn't work out.

1581
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:40,400
Yeah.

1582
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,240
And that must be a very difficult conversation for David to have.

1583
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:43,240
It must be.

1584
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:44,240
Yeah, it must be.

1585
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:45,240
No matter.

1586
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:48,240
I mean, there's a lot of terrible exes in this world, but yeah, definitely.

1587
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:49,640
Susan Smith was one of them.

1588
01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:50,640
Wow.

1589
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:51,640
Yeah, that's wild.

1590
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:55,680
I find it interesting that you brought a case having to do with children because I know

1591
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,880
that that's not normally your style and that's not really something that we've covered

1592
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,280
a lot lately or at all really.

1593
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:04,640
But that was a really, really good story.

1594
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:11,360
And it almost seems to me as if she, of course, she was diagnosed with adjustment disorder

1595
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:12,920
as a teenager.

1596
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:17,920
And it almost seems like it kind of developed into dependent personality disorder as she

1597
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:18,920
grew older.

1598
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:23,960
And you know, we all know that most personality disorders, they can show up anywhere from

1599
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:28,480
like 15 to like 25 is like the sweet spot for personality disorder.

1600
01:16:28,480 --> 01:16:30,680
So that makes a lot of sense.

1601
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:36,080
But I think one of the biggest reasons for her doing what she did, especially with the

1602
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:40,680
men growing up was, you know, she had so much love for her biological father and then he

1603
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,000
was taken from her.

1604
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,080
And for seemingly in her mind, like, like why?

1605
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,040
Like for no reason.

1606
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:56,600
And I think that really skewed her mindset on what a relationship with men is.

1607
01:16:56,600 --> 01:17:02,720
And almost like with the dependent personality disorder, every man that I love is going to

1608
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:03,720
leave me.

1609
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:04,720
Right.

1610
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:07,680
That's the first thing that was ingrained in her mind.

1611
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:11,680
Which also might abuse her because yeah, I think with Bev by the time that, you know,

1612
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:15,960
she was probably becoming interested in boys.

1613
01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:19,280
Then it's almost, I mean, I don't know if it was her first interaction with somebody,

1614
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,600
but either way, it's a violation.

1615
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:28,560
But in her mind, it's, oh, I get approval.

1616
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:33,600
I'm seeking approval and I'm gaining it through this act with this man.

1617
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:38,480
Well that's what I was going to say too, is that with Bev, you know, when her mother found

1618
01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:42,720
out what was happening, she kind of removed herself from Bev.

1619
01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:46,600
He left the home again leaving Susan.

1620
01:17:46,600 --> 01:17:51,000
So maybe that's why she also continued that relationship because she was afraid of him

1621
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,640
leaving.

1622
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:57,240
And even though she, you know, met David and, you know, she had the people at the grocery

1623
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:02,240
store and then Tom, like, she's still, it's not just one person, I guess, that she feels

1624
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:03,240
she needs.

1625
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:04,600
She doesn't want anyone to leave her.

1626
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:11,480
So that may explain why she was still engaging with the stepfather.

1627
01:18:11,480 --> 01:18:17,560
And I think you would think that that dependent personality disorder would translate to the

1628
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:18,560
children.

1629
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,280
It would be dependent on them, but again, they're children.

1630
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,440
They can't give her anything.

1631
01:18:23,440 --> 01:18:28,520
And that part of that disorder, like you explained earlier, is you feel like you can't make decisions

1632
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:31,400
without someone's approval or input.

1633
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:36,280
You feel like you can't be alone without someone's help and the children were children.

1634
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:41,440
Just not, you know, they can't give you advice or give you companionship or anything like

1635
01:18:41,440 --> 01:18:42,440
that.

1636
01:18:42,440 --> 01:18:43,800
But Tom can in her mind.

1637
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:45,880
So what's the choice here?

1638
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:51,160
In her mind, it's unfortunately harming the children.

1639
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:56,280
So that's just, again, I'm trying to go through it with her mindset.

1640
01:18:56,280 --> 01:19:00,960
Of course, this disorder makes people, any kind of disorder can skew your judgment and

1641
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:02,400
your psyche.

1642
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:04,760
And she clearly admitted it later on.

1643
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:10,080
But the fact that she was medicated during the time before she stood trial, who knows

1644
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:14,640
what she's getting in prison, but the fact that she's still able to manipulate and calm

1645
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:16,880
these men in jail is very interesting.

1646
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,680
When you know that she probably has a regulation of some kind.

1647
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:21,600
Yeah, exactly.

1648
01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:23,160
That's a really interesting one.

1649
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:26,840
And I think that is the first time that we've done that type of diagnosis.

1650
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,280
Yeah, yeah, especially a dependent disorder like that.

1651
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:31,280
It's really interesting.

1652
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:34,440
Well, I will say I have a really great case next week.

1653
01:19:34,440 --> 01:19:39,120
But the one I'm doing after that is very similar childhood wise to this person, which I honestly

1654
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:40,320
was like at...

1655
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:41,760
Not ooh, because ew.

1656
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:48,160
But like at one point, I was like, no, no, not the stepfather stuff, but before.

1657
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:52,760
At one point I was like, is the person that I'm doing the person she's doing, I just didn't

1658
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:53,920
know her real name.

1659
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:57,360
Like I was really thinking that for like the first 10 minutes, I was like, oh my gosh,

1660
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:00,280
I would have to research someone else.

1661
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:01,440
But no, it's not that.

1662
01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:06,880
Stay tuned for a collaboration happening in just a few, like what, two more weeks?

1663
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:08,480
It'll be one week after this comes out.

1664
01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:11,000
So one week after you guys are hearing this.

1665
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:14,920
So it'll be next Thursday, the second.

1666
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:15,920
We are going to do...

1667
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:16,920
Should we just announce it?

1668
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:17,920
Maybe we should.

1669
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:18,920
We should just announce it.

1670
01:20:18,920 --> 01:20:19,920
I think so.

1671
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:20,920
I'll give you both sided for it.

1672
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:21,920
Let's do it.

1673
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:22,920
So we'll have a mental breakdown coming out on Monday.

1674
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:25,360
I have a very interesting mental breakdown.

1675
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,880
It's gonna be, we always say this, way different than anything we've done.

1676
01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:32,240
It is going to be mental breakdown meets true crime.

1677
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:37,320
So it's going to be a complete medley of those two on Monday and then next Thursday,

1678
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:39,680
the second, Koelle.

1679
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:43,400
We are going to be in collaboration with Movication.

1680
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:47,520
We have been kind of excited about this for a little bit now.

1681
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,400
So essentially we will be tackling...

1682
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:52,800
Don't say who it is.

1683
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:53,800
No?

1684
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:54,800
Okay.

1685
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,920
So this is like the only time that I actually know.

1686
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:00,880
We are going to be tackling a case that is a very well known case and has actually been

1687
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,720
the inspiration behind plenty of horror films.

1688
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:12,440
So Movication will also be incorporating this real life individual with some movies and

1689
01:21:12,440 --> 01:21:14,920
some information that is really, really exciting.

1690
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:15,920
I think they're going to be doing...

1691
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:17,720
Well, I'm not even going to say what the movies are.

1692
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:18,720
Yeah, no, don't.

1693
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:20,440
No, because you know how they roll.

1694
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:21,440
They roll like us.

1695
01:21:21,440 --> 01:21:22,440
Exactly.

1696
01:21:22,440 --> 01:21:25,280
We're very, very excited for a collaboration with Movication.

1697
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:27,120
Go like them on Instagram.

1698
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:29,160
They are wherever you listen to podcasts.

1699
01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:30,160
Yeah, absolutely.

1700
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:33,960
And yeah, we were just saying usually, of course, you guys know that we don't tell each

1701
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:38,920
other who we're doing, but for this specific instance, Koel does know who I am bringing,

1702
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:39,920
but we're really excited about it.

1703
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:42,520
And I've had it researched for like literally a month now.

1704
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:46,000
It's just been sitting in my computer, so I'm waiting to tell the story.

1705
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:50,040
And it's going to be one that you guys know, and it's going to be one that I actually didn't

1706
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:51,520
know as much as I thought I did.

1707
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:55,280
And I say that all the time, but definitely a good story.

1708
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:58,000
Oh, not a good story, but interesting story.

1709
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,400
I'm excited to talk about horror films in spring.

1710
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:02,400
Yeah.

1711
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:05,720
It's going to be something that you're going to have to be, I mean, you're already knowledgeable

1712
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,040
about it, but I don't really watch things like that very often.

1713
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:11,320
So maybe I'll have to watch between now and then maybe I can get like some, you know,

1714
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:13,120
information of my own.

1715
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:16,520
And then I know that we also have a DAK live in the works.

1716
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:18,200
I'm really excited about that.

1717
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:22,320
We are going to potentially be doing one, I would say maybe the next couple of weeks.

1718
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:27,040
We have a new guest that's coming on with us to do a DAK live completely unedited, completely

1719
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:28,400
raw.

1720
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,800
We don't know what we're talking about just yet, but it's going to be similarly to the

1721
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:33,520
Clark Finney episode.

1722
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:38,960
It's probably going to be personal stories and just kind of general conversation about

1723
01:22:38,960 --> 01:22:40,920
mental health, mental illness, things like that.

1724
01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:42,800
We're all going to have to fit in this closet too.

1725
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:43,800
We are.

1726
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,360
Yeah, it's going to be hard, but we'll figure it out.

1727
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:47,360
Anyway, that is all.

1728
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:48,840
Do you have anything else?

1729
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:50,240
No, I think that's it.

1730
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:51,240
Okay.

1731
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:52,240
Well, we will see you guys later.

1732
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:55,280
Thank you for listening and thank you for all of the support on social media.

1733
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:57,200
We are getting up there with our followers.

1734
01:22:57,200 --> 01:22:59,720
And if you would like to, please check out our sponsors.

1735
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:00,720
They are great.

1736
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,600
We'll see the links in all of our show notes.

1737
01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:07,680
And then on every episode, we have something in our show notes for that.

1738
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:08,680
Yeah.

1739
01:23:08,680 --> 01:23:11,240
But yeah, that is all we have and we will see you later.

1740
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:12,240
Love you.

1741
01:23:12,240 --> 01:23:13,240
Love you.

1742
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:14,240
Bye.

1743
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:21,800
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