Hello! Welcome back to another episode of diagnosing a killer.
Damn, that was... Should we like trademark that?
I don't know, maybe? That was good.
Yeah.
I know some people.
Oh, okay. We know some people in the biz.
In the biz?
Who are you?
I'm Koelle.
And I'm Kenna.
Hi.
I was waiting for you to say at first, which is your case, toots welks.
Well, how is everyone doing?
I'm doing okay.
I am doing really well.
I know you're asking the listeners, but still.
I know. I was asking you to.
Okay.
You know, want to know about you.
We sat here for probably 30 minutes already recording some other stuff, and we actually
haven't really like chatted about anything.
We've just been like recording the other stuff and like not talking to each other.
So, here's our chance.
Yeah, add time. Add time is always a fun time.
And when you do click on the links, it actually does show us how many times that link has
been viewed, much like social media.
So, it does help us out.
The more you guys take a ganda.
Yeah, for sure.
And just browse.
I love window browsing.
Oh, me too.
And I love internet window browsing.
It's like one of my favorite things ever.
I like put things in my cart and then I just leave.
I do that all of the time.
I did that earlier.
I go, oh, this sale is good until tomorrow.
And then I'll just leave it on there.
And I'll be like, I'll get to it and then sales over with.
But that's great though, because then it means that I didn't spend any money.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaking of putting things in your cart and not buying them, I have a revision from the
last mental breakdown that we did.
So, I mistakenly said that they probably going to be coming out with a DSM-5R sometime pretty
soon because it's been...
Well, you were correct in thinking that.
I was.
It came out early last year.
So, there is a new revised version.
I thought you meant like by a few weeks.
No.
It was like last, like in the beginning of 2022, they came out with a DSM-5R.
So, that is the revised version, like we mentioned in our episode, that will have new diagnoses
in there as well.
Some of them probably will be taken out as well.
And then at the back of that book, there will also be reasons why they got taken out and
the new verbiage if there is.
Sure.
I looked it up on Amazon.
That copy is about $120, $130.
So, it's a little bit more pricey than the DSM-5.
But again, definitely worth it to have accurate information, current information.
Tote's worth.
Things like that.
And I put a little edit in the actual episode, like PS, by the way, we know that there is
a new copy.
Yes.
You know, everyone makes this game.
We just Googled after the fact.
So, I heard that.
It's so funny, kind of like the astral plane, like it just came up and I heard it.
I was like, oh my gosh, we just talked about that.
So, kind of peppered in there.
Peppered in.
But yeah, that was something that I wanted to add.
And I'm really excited to hear your case.
Before we get started, I do want to mention our social media.
We do have Instagram at diagnosing a killer.
Actually, that is our handle on everything except for Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.
We have a Patreon setup.
If you'd like to support us monetarily, you can do that there.
And we do actually have another very, very nice Instagram message that I'd like to read.
Ka'well obviously has access to the Instagram, but it's under my login.
So, she actually doesn't see the direct messages until I tell her and show her.
So, this is going to be her first time hearing this.
That's true.
So, we did get a message earlier today and it was very sweet.
So, they said, hi, I wanted to reach out.
Thank you for requesting to follow me.
That's a great way to gain followers.
Thank you very much.
I listened to my first podcast by all today.
I love True Crime Podcasts and I have caught up with all the ones on one of my favorites.
And since I drive an hour a lot to my boyfriend, I needed another one to listen to.
I found a couple I liked but not loved and looked forward to until y'alls.
I love how y'all tell the story and go into the mental aspect as well.
I listened to episode 35 but I'm super excited to catch up and hear them all.
Listening to podcasts has helped me on my long drive since my mom has passed.
Today is her birthday and I listened to y'alls today.
I didn't fully listen because my mind was wondering off and getting sad about my mom,
but y'all helped me snap out of my sadness.
Thank you so much.
I am so excited I have found another great True Crime Podcast.
I am excited to be a big fan.
And then they also added in, keep up the hard work I'll share with my friends.
So, that was really sweet.
Thank you so much.
It was really sweet.
And thank you for opening up about, you know, the feels.
Yeah, of course.
And I, of course, I responded to, you can see that I respond to every direct message that I can.
And we really appreciate you guys, you know, giving us your vulnerability,
but also that we really like to know that we help people get some joy, you know, out of their day.
And, you know, as much as this is a serious topic podcast with the, you know, the True Crime part of it
and the psychology, of course, we are definitely pretty goofy people.
I'm sure you've all realized.
And we think it's, you know, it's okay to be a little lighthearted in certain times.
And so I'm glad that you guys are receiving that well.
For sure.
And I hope that you find peace and closure.
Absolutely.
Same.
Well, we are going to get into the case and I'm excited to know what you're going to do.
Today we're going to talk about Susan Smith.
Okay.
So we're trying to do this mostly every episode now, but there is a content warning
and it's going to be a blanket statement for this episode.
This episode depicts scenes of suicide, sexual assaults of a minor, and familicide, including minors.
Although these topics are described in a sensitive manner, this subject matter may still be disturbing.
If this episode isn't for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.
Remember, your mental health comes first and that we love you.
We love you.
Bye.
Susan Lee Vaughn was born on September 26, 1971 to Harry Ray and Linda Sue Vaughn.
I think it's Vaughn.
It's V-A-U-G-H.
It looks like Vaughn, but I think it's Vaughn.
Like Vaughn.
Probably Vaughn.
She had two older brothers and the family lived in Union, South Carolina.
When Harry and Linda fell in love, Linda was just 17 and Harry was just 20.
These are Susan's parents.
Okay.
And this was 1963.
Linda was actually pregnant when the couple met, although she kept it a secret from her family and her friends,
and only told Harry when the couple became serious, to which he replied, with a ring.
So they got married.
Okay.
Already getting married super quickly.
Yeah.
Look at them.
There's like three sentences.
They got married and they gave birth to their first son, Michael.
A few short years later, they brought home Scotty and then in 1971, they welcomed their first daughter,
their only daughter, their last child, Susan.
Harry, although adored by his daughter Susan, struggled with severe depression and started self-medicating with alcohol when the kids were very young.
Harry over the years began to become violent around the house, specifically towards his wife, Linda.
The children remember hiding whenever their parents would start discussing anything that seemed like it would be a tense topic.
That's awful.
Isn't that sad?
I mean, I know people like that, and I'm sure that you do too.
It's like as soon as you see the conversation going somewhere, I don't know about you, but I like remove myself.
I'm like, nope, I'm not going to argue with you.
Harry also started becoming increasingly concerned that Linda was being unfaithful to him, to which seemed highly unlikely,
since Linda was mostly at home with the kids, or was very transparent about her whereabouts.
There's a long haul trucker, and that's probably why he thought maybe she was seeing someone else,
because he would be gone for lengths at a time.
At certain times, Harry would threaten to kill Linda, and then kill himself in front of the children.
Not kill her and himself in front of the children, but would say that in front of the children.
Yeah.
That's really fucked up.
Yeah.
And they're young at this point.
They're young, yeah.
This is all while they're growing up.
I think that, well, Michael was, I think, maybe six or seven years older than Susan.
Jesus.
So if Susan was like four or five, which we'll get into, but yeah.
Yeah, God, that's terrible.
The household was so tumultuous.
Michael, Susan's eldest brother, would actually attempt suicide when Susan was just five.
I think he was like 12 or 13.
Oh my God.
Oh my God, how terrible.
He was like mid teens or like young teens.
A baby, though.
He was a child.
Her brother was unsuccessful, thankfully, but he would be registered to a mental institution
and would be in and out of institutions while Susan was growing up, like all throughout school.
Okay.
Now, with just two children in the house, Susan and Scotty, things only got worse.
Many other parents and teachers would call Susan reserved, strange, and an overall sad child.
So we're just going to comment on her behavior and her attitude.
We're not going to like worry about like helping her get out of there.
Right.
We're just going to make it known that she's a sad child.
They probably didn't know what's going on in the home.
Ask, maybe.
Well, you know, she's a different time.
You know, like the 1930s.
Okay.
If there's any people listening that are teachers or anything like that, if you notice a sad child, ask them what's going on.
Ask them what's going on.
I think everything's so transparent nowadays.
Yeah.
You know, this is she's in 70s.
She would often dissociate by staring into space and overall seemed aloof or like head in the clouds.
Yeah.
Which is probably what they thought.
Yeah.
Like she's, she's the funny one that bells.
She just doesn't care.
She's just aloof.
Yeah.
Even with all the abuse in the house, Susan still loved her dad and she always greeted him with a hug whenever he would come home.
Susan would be crushed when her mother filed for divorce from her father in late 1977.
Oh, that's so awful because like, obviously Linda has her reasons, right?
And so it's awful like the kids.
It's actually strange to me that Susan is still so infatuated with her dad.
Like, you know, she is still seeing him in this really great light and then she's devastated when they get divorced.
So, yeah, clearly there was some sort of whether it was the mom or the dad, there was some sort of, you know, masking the real, real harsh reality of like the situation.
Maybe just because she was younger and like, maybe the boys were older and I don't know, you know.
I don't really understand.
Yeah.
Like maybe it was like, you know, the mother's nicer to the boys and the father's nicer to the daughter.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Harry was devastated by this news, of course, and he only began to spy on her more.
Having had enough just a few weeks after the divorce was filed, Harry came to the house unannounced and he tried to force his way into the house.
He bashed in the windows to the house and tried to get it Linda and try to get her to talk to him.
So in order to protect the children, she came outside after some time of him being outside.
She had already called the police.
As police arrived on the scene, they witnessed Harry strike Linda in the face.
Oh my God.
Fearing that he was a danger to himself or others, Harry pleaded with officers to take him to see a judge that night and not just be released from jail like the next day.
He was really concerned that he might have hurt himself or someone else.
Well, I mean, that's saying something.
So by the time that this occurrence had happened, Linda had actually started dating someone else at this point.
She had been seeing a man by the name of Beverly Russell or Bev for short.
Bev was a staunch Republican and a member of the Christian coalition, which I looked it up.
You don't have to.
They're fucking terrifying.
Oh wow.
Bev was a divorced father of three and all of them were like older than Linda's kids.
So they had, they were already grown up out of the house.
Of course this only hurt Harry much more.
It seemed like it was kind of this ready made family and Harry was just kind of like pushed out.
On January 15th, 1978, Harry would ultimately commit suicide by a self inflicted gunshot wound to the abdomen.
Oh my God.
Ouch.
He did not die right away.
He was actually rushed into surgery, but he would succumb to his injuries.
I feel like that's like arguably worse.
Yeah.
He was just 34.
Oh my God.
That's awful.
Of course this devastated Susan who had always thought of her dad as some kind of a hero or breadwinner for the family.
Yeah.
Susan even hung onto Harry's coin collection and had an audio recording of her dad's voice in a dresser drawer for many years after his passing.
Linda would ultimately marry Bev in 1979 and the whole family would actually move to Bev's sprawling three bedroom home.
And that's definitely different than what they were living in because they were sharing like a two bedroom house.
Yeah.
Despite her loss and huge life changes, Susan began to thrive in school, right?
We've seen this before.
People throw themselves into school.
Yeah.
She was incredibly bright and she was actually part of the A B honor roll for most of her schooling.
Okay.
She excelled in math, science, Spanish, and volunteered with her Red Cross Club at school.
Volunteering didn't stop here though.
She had also volunteered for the Special Olympics every year and she also worked with the elderly.
Susan, however functional she seemed on the outside, would not be able to fully cope with her father taking his own life and her own depression.
She had admitted at some point that at age 13, she tried to take her own life as well.
Oh my gosh.
She's like her brother too.
Yeah.
And it's really interesting because we always say or think, you know, maybe this will make me closer to this person.
You know, it's really sad.
Yeah.
And after this attempt and she realized that essentially she couldn't be closer to her biological father, quote unquote, she actually leaned into her relationship with her stepfather, Bev.
The two seemed to be exceptionally close as the years went on.
He was her biggest cheerleader at events and during her successes.
And by the time that Susan was in high school, Susan would find herself competing with her mother for her stepfather's attention.
No.
On one occasion, when Susan was 15 or 16 years old, Susan, Linda, her mother and Bev had begun to watch a movie.
Finding herself tired, Linda went off to bed.
No.
While Susan and her stepfather were watching the remainder of the film, Susan began snuggling up to Bev.
She proceeded to put her head in his lap and what happens next is actually not denied by Susan nor Bev.
Okay.
Eventually he reached into her shirt and began to grope her and eventually he did reach into her pants and he molested her as well.
Oh my God.
Although Susan would later say that this was a conceptual act, she's incapable of consenting because of her age.
Of course.
Susan actually told her guidance counselor at school about it and her own mother about it.
And they didn't fucking do anything.
Just wait.
Although her mother confronted her husband about the inappropriate interaction, her mother actually never pressed charges.
And even when Bev had confessed to it happening, like he had completely admitted when he was confronted by Linda.
Like, you know, like a fucking crime.
The two would go on to have three more children.
Oh God, no.
God.
And why would you want to stay with someone after that?
That's fucking gross.
So Bev would be forced out of the house.
Linda was like, you're not going to press charges, but you have to move out of the house.
Which like, maybe you should fucking press charges as well.
However, during this time, the three would attend family counseling.
She's like, you got to move out of the house.
I'm not going to press charges, but we have to go to counseling because clearly there's like a dynamic happening here with the three of us.
Yeah.
Him.
Yeah.
It's not the three of them.
It's him.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
It's interesting because like I said, like Susan felt like she was competing against her mother.
So I wonder if there was like the mother was kind of competing too.
You know what I mean?
But why?
I don't know.
It's a weird, it's definitely weird.
My God.
Even with, even with, damn it.
Even with, even with, even with.
In English?
Even with, even with Bev out of house.
Even with this.
Sorry for the UK listeners.
We're not making fun of you.
It just sounds funny.
Even with Bev out of the house, the abuse continued.
So like they were still seeing each other.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, they're in counseling together.
No, no, no.
Correction, they weren't still seeing each other.
He was still creeping on her.
Yeah, he was being a pedophile.
Absolutely.
That's fucking disgusting.
Although the counselor had reported the incident to police when it was time to go to court.
So the counselor did report there was going to be an investigation.
They were already going to go to court for it.
Susan denied the allegations.
Like at first it was like, oh, like I just made it up.
Like I would ever I told the counselor I was just looking for attention.
Yeah.
Because she didn't want him to get in trouble.
That is brainwashing at its fucking finest.
So the case was dropped.
That poor girl, she doesn't even fucking know who she's defending or like why she has to
lie.
Oh, that's so gross.
When Susan was about 16 or 17 years old, she began working at a local grocery store for
extra money.
Here she met her 40 year old manager who was married.
No.
And began to have an affair with him.
She actually, yeah.
She actually began another affair with a 30 year old assistant manager as well.
And when the 40 year old found out not only about the coinciding of fares, but that Susan
was also pregnant.
Yeah.
He like lost his shit and broke up with her, right?
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
He broke up the relationship.
You're gonna go now because I'm gonna go now.
Like this is bad.
It's the real world.
Maybe you shouldn't be fucking a 17 year old when you're 40.
Susan would have an abortion and having become attached to very easily, she was distraught
over losing both partners.
I'm sorry.
I misspoke.
It was the 30 year old that found out about the other affair.
Either way.
Both men left.
She had an abortion and she once again tried an attempt on her life.
Oh my God.
That's so awful.
This poor girl just has like such a bad history with relationship with her father.
And then of course her stepfather.
Stepfather, yeah.
She doesn't know what a healthy relationship with men is.
Right.
It's so awful.
She was admitted into a hospital and she would be monitored for weeks, a few weeks.
Like close to a month, I think.
During her stay, the nursing staff found it very odd that although Susan would cry and
sob all night long once alone, during visiting hours she was very cheerful and bubbly to
people.
Okay.
So she was able to put on a persona.
Quote on quote normal or typical, right?
Typical behavior.
It was during her stay in the hospital that doctors would actually diagnose Susan as having
an adjustment disorder.
It's because of her age probably.
From the Mayo Clinic, this is directly from their website, an adjustment disorder is a
stress-related condition.
You experience more stress than would normally be expected in a response to a stressful or
unexpected event.
And these stresses cause significant problems in your relationships at work or at school.
These things may be brought on by work problems, going away to school, an illness, a death
of a close family member, or any number of life changes.
Most of the time people can adjust to such changes within a few months, but if you have
an adjustment disorder, you continually have emotional or behavioral reactions that can
contribute to feeling anxious or depressed.
Some signs of this disorder can include feeling sad, hopeless or not enjoying things you
used to, frequently crying, worrying or feeling anxious, nervous or jittery, trouble sleeping,
lack of appetite, difficulty concentrating, feeling overwhelmed, difficulty functioning
and daily activities, withdrawing from social support, avoiding important things such as
going to work or paying bills, suicidal thoughts or behavior.
Symptoms of an adjustment disorder start within three months of a stressful event and last
no longer than six months after the end of the stressful event.
However, persistent or chronic adjustment disorders can continue for more than six months,
especially if the stressor is ongoing, such as unemployment, right?
So the stressor-
Or being taken advantage of by someone twice your age.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, clearly.
For sure.
Soon after Susan's return to work, Susan's high school friend David would actually begin
working at the store as well.
David Smith was a year older than Susan and was the second of three biological kiddos
and he also had one stepbrother who was older but didn't necessarily live in the house.
First was Billy from his mother's first marriage and then Danny and then David and then Becky,
so we're talking about David.
His father was a Navy veteran and the family was brought up in a devout Jehovah's Witness
home.
David's mother tried to shelter the kids from the outside world as best she could.
She worked two jobs and was also going to school for nursing.
His father, after serving two terms in Vietnam, had come home and managed a shoebox store.
A box store, not a shoebox store.
All they have is shoeboxes.
Yeah.
While the kids were growing up, David's parents became disillusioned with each other and mainly
argued about his mother's commitment to her religious beliefs.
David's father didn't like that his wife sheltered the kids as much as she did and thought
that the kids were being robbed from life experience.
While in high school, David began dating a young lady named Christie.
There was another episode we did recently where the girlfriend's name was Christie.
I think it was the Menendez brothers and you were like, he started dating a girl named
Christie and you sang it.
So this was also Christie.
There's Christie and then there's Christie.
So Christie was kind of cool.
Even from Christie's perspective, David and his siblings were actually deprived from social
exposure and could recognize that his upbringing was considered abnormal.
Christie said that David actually hadn't experienced Christmas ever until David was invited to
her family's Christmas one year.
I've heard people that have experienced that.
Yeah.
David began to see how his mother's intentions had actually hindered him and by age 16, 17,
David began pulling away from his mother and began to denounce his mother's religion
and entirety.
Wow.
Entirely, not entirety.
After this, the household became incredibly hostile, almost between everyone.
David decided to follow in his brother's footsteps, Danny, who had moved from their
house into their great-grandparents' house, which was like just a few houses down or
like next door in a nearby property.
So David and Danny moved out.
Even with all this, David was a hard worker and after beginning to work at the grocery
store, David and Susan were due to graduate high school in 1989.
So Susan has returned to work right after her hospital stay.
With the same creeps?
Yeah.
Well, I think one of them still worked there.
I don't know if the 40-year-old did, but the 30-year-old definitely did.
Andy, you'll hear why.
So she returns to work and David and Susan would kind of reconnect because they knew
each other from high school.
And I don't know if they really knew each other.
I think it was just because they knew that they went to high school with each other.
So keep in mind that David is still with Christie and David and Susan would actually, David and
Susan would begin a casual arrangement.
You can get what I'm saying.
Soup's cash.
Soup's cash arrangement, yeah, soup's cash.
But David has a girlfriend, right?
Christie, a long-term girlfriend.
They dated almost all throughout high school.
Susan would come to find that she was pregnant after a year of the two engaging in consensual
hookups.
I'm sorry, but like, come on.
She was just 19.
With this news, David had no other option but to come clean with Christie and he broke
off their relationship.
He wanted to support Susan and I'm assuming it was a mutual decision that they didn't
want to go through a procedure.
So he wanted to support her.
It was probably, like I said, a personal decision.
So David felt like he was doing the right thing when he then proposed to Susan.
Sounds like her mom.
At this point was two months along.
The two would come to accept that their dreams of attending college may be put on the backburner
for now, which is something that both of their families were not happy about.
Oh yeah.
Furthermore, Susan's mother Linda and her stepfather, step-bother, yeah, he is a bother.
Yeah, he is.
And her stepfather Bev were disappointed that Susan would marry a man who is not an economical
match for their family.
What the fuck does that mean?
I don't know what Linda's fucking talking about.
She was married to fucking, what's his face over here, you know, but like you moved into
this giant fucking house, like you can be like, oh, like he's not up to par with like
our standards.
Yeah, we only marry pedophiles in this family apparently.
Well, yeah, that sounds bad, but like Jesus.
Either way, the couple was really optimistic and they really wanted to like thrive on nothing
but love.
They kind of had this like world-wind.
Susan and David leaned on each other for the support that they had craved pretty much their
whole lives.
And they did blissfully live with the notion that their love for each other and the love
that they had for their future family would be enough to carry them through anything.
Oh no.
This is against the world.
It sounds so lovely.
Susan was just three months pregnant when David would lose his older brother Danny to
a long battle of complications with Crohn's disease.
Oh no.
Very, very sad.
Oh.
Encouraged by some of their family members, the two decided to marry just 11 days after
the passing of David's brother.
Wow, 11 days.
It was also somewhat forced by David's mother since she was worried that Susan would be
showing in photos if they were to postpone the wedding.
They can't just get married like way later on, like when they're ready?
No, that's impossible.
They have to get married now.
Okay.
And they would know that they would have a baby out of wedlock.
And who wants that?
Oh, of course.
Although David had been working on building a house on the property of his great grandparents,
the house was incomplete and when the couple got married, instead of supporting David in
his endeavor to build the couple a private space, Susan was turned off to the progress
and insisted that the couple live in the home with his great grandparents as she was used
to a, quote, certain type of lifestyle and not a, quote, tin-roofed shack.
Oh.
It didn't appeal to Susan.
I guarantee you she also wanted to be taken care of by his grandparents.
Oh, I'm sure.
She wants to live in the nice house.
She doesn't want to do things for herself, it seems like.
Yeah.
She doesn't even want David to do things for themselves.
By May, Susan was five months pregnant and unfortunately around this time, David's father
tried to commit suicide by overdose.
Oh my God.
It's like one thing after another.
Yeah.
One thing after another.
That is so awful.
He was found sprawled on the floor of his family home and his father would be admitted
to the hospital.
He would survive and after this he was actually treated for severe depression.
He was just unable to deal with the loss of Danny.
He was just very unable to come.
Oh, that's so sad.
But he would eventually get home and he would be fine.
During this time, David's mother would find all of this too much to handle and would actually
separate from David's father and moved away.
Yeah, like that's going to make it better.
Yeah, that makes it better.
It's just brokenness between the two families.
It's just brokenness.
His father would ultimately remarry after meeting another woman who was actually in
the hospital while he was getting treated.
So.
Like she was a patient as well?
I don't know if she was a patient.
I thought she was like a nurse or something.
He was pretty happy, I think, afterwards.
That's good.
Susan would continue to work at the grocery store until the couple gave birth to their
first child, Michael Daniel.
So Michael after her brother and then Daniel after Danny, the one that just passed.
So named after the baby's two brother or two uncles, brother.
Little Michael was born on October 10th, 1991.
And after Michael's birth, Susan found it within herself to begin college courses.
However, soon after Michael's birth, the couple began to have financial issues.
This wasn't like typical financial issues, however, okay, because we always hear this,
right?
The couple did well as far as their finances.
The two were both working or living off savings that they had accumulated while they were
waiting for Michael to come along.
But Susan was experiencing a bit of like binging habits when it came to spending.
David was getting increasingly frustrated with Susan when she was complaining that the
family wasn't wealthy enough or didn't live in the most luxurious surroundings.
This was like a huge point of contention for the couple.
David felt like the life that they led was more than sufficient for a family of three.
However, Susan felt that the financial situation had the potential to be more rewarding and
felt that her husband was just penny-penching.
Oh, okay.
He's like, I don't know, I just want to stuff, you know, like have food.
And yeah, shelter and survive.
Yeah, and not like giant coats.
Susan would begin to approach her mother and stepfather for supplementary income, like
for herself and like maybe the baby.
Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, Linda, Susan's mom, would constantly come by the property unannounced and decided
to just like make the visits about like lecturing them on their like life decisions.
It was very irritating.
Instead of, you know, like coming around to see her grandson.
Yeah.
David felt like after these visits, Susan would quickly adapt to Linda's wants and
wishes.
And after Linda would leave, Susan would all of a sudden express the same concerns as
her mother, furthering the conflict between the husband and wife.
I hate that shit.
Me too.
Throughout the first year of their marriage, the couple experienced more than a few fallouts.
Susan would insist that David would leave and go to his parents' house when they would
have arguments and then seemingly try to work on things with David by suggesting that he
moved back in, like all the time.
You can leave the house that I moved in with you in, it's not even my house, but you can
leave.
Yeah, she thinks it's like her house, like the great-grandparents' house or her house.
I didn't, you know what, where are the great-grandparents?
Because I don't even think they talked to her.
They might have inherited the house.
They might have.
Their grandparents might not be around anymore.
Susan was still working at the grocery store, and almost one year to the date of their wedding
anniversary, Susan would reveal that she had had an affair with the same 30-year-old assistant
manager as before.
During their marriage?
Like within this last year.
Like since they got married and they had my goal.
She was sleeping with this guy still.
Or at some point.
By 1992, the couple had done this back and forth multiple times, but in November 1992,
Susan would announce that she was pregnant yet again with the couple's second child,
Alexander Tyler.
With this new revelation, David and Susan agreed that they would try to make their marriage
work.
Some things needed to change though, and one of which was that the couple were to move
into a turnkey home so that they could have the space that Susan really craved.
What is a turnkey home?
Just means that it's like, it's like, it's like brand, essentially brand new.
Or it's like re-modeled or whatever.
It just means that there's no work that needs to be done.
So this is like a standard that Susan was kind of like expecting.
So Susan approached her mother and her stepfather about providing a down payment on a ranch-style
house.
They complied.
This pregnancy was very different from Susan's first.
She constantly complained about being lethargic, weepy, and she struggled with body image issues.
She called herself fat and ugly regularly.
Like you're pregnant.
It makes me sad when pregnant women say that.
Dude, you're not fat, you're beautiful.
I think it's just because you feel so out of control.
You're not in control of your body.
Even though in a weird way you're kind of the most control of your body because you
control everything that goes into it and everything you expose yourself to.
But yeah, it does feel like it's kind of out of control.
You get acne and stuff too.
It's completely different than what you look like.
David did his best to support his wife through this very tough time and was likely thankful
that she was vocal with her struggles instead of keeping them inside like she had before.
However, Susan was almost indignant about David's attempts to kind of be a part of what she
was experiencing too.
She would express, she would complain, but anytime you'd be like, oh, let me help you
a little bit, she'd be like, ugh, you're annoying.
I hate that.
Yeah.
She would rarely communicate about their son Michael's progress throughout the day.
She would clam up when David would ask questions about what they did around the house that
day.
Just simple stuff.
Yeah.
Like, what did you do today?
I don't know.
I just hung out.
I just like hung out.
I did the shoes.
Like, what do you want from me?
He was a baby.
He cried.
You know?
You sound like Kelly, the, let's get some shots.
Oh my God.
Shouts.
I thought it was like, what are you going to do today?
Oh, yeah, that was it.
What do you want to do today?
I don't know.
What do you want to do today?
You didn't know yesterday?
Yes, I did.
And I don't know.
I don't know.
The couple were hardly romantic and physical, probably because of Susan's clear depression,
right?
Because that can affect your libido as well.
David was beginning to get tired of his wife as well.
David himself was still working at the grocery store.
And while Susan was pregnant with their second child, he began to have an affair with a cash
year named Tiffany Moss.
He also had an affair.
I was a 30 year old manager.
He was the same 30 year old manager.
So now there's four people engaged in this, well, at least at one point with her, engaged
in this adultery and they're all working in the same place.
Yeah.
It's stupid.
It just sounds like a fuckfest.
Susan caught wind that something was amiss and would frequently come up to the store
and yell at David while he was working, accusing him of set affair and however many others
that's unsuspected.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it seems like a happy family.
That's gonna help.
In August 1993, their second child, Alex, was born.
Alex's birth was actually unusual as well.
There were some complications.
So unfortunately Susan had to have an emergency C-section.
The couple once again put aside their differences and they welcomed their second child into
the world and allowed Susan to recover.
Within a month, the couple would decide that although they wanted to be devoted parents,
they themselves as a couple probably wouldn't work out.
Couldn't imagine why.
David decided to move out to his parents' home while the two would come up with some
kind of a custody agreement in the meantime while ultimately pseudo deciding on divorce.
They knew they didn't want to be together anymore.
Knowing that David very well maintained his affair that he was having with the cashier,
Tiffany Moss, and knowing that her past and discussions were also probably gonna be looked
at, Susan was like, I'm gonna look for employment elsewhere.
Oh, okay.
I can't imagine why.
So in 1993, Susan began to work as a secretary for the Conso products company and eventually
began working for a man by the name of Jay Finley.
Jay hired Susan as his personal secretary after some time of her working there and Susan felt
really successful in this role.
She was able to see this kind of luxurious lifestyle because he was the company owner
or something.
Yeah.
She would be essentially finding Finley flights and flowers for the office and just-
The Devil Wars product.
Yeah, she's the fun secretary.
Just a lot of expenditures that her and David weren't really used to.
Yeah.
It was really interesting for her to see kind of this lavish lifestyle.
So through Jay Finley, Susan would meet her new love interest, Finley's son, Tom Finley.
Oh no.
Yeah.
Tom was handsome, successful, a young man who worked for the graphic design department.
Susan would find a new friend group at work and through various parties and bar gatherings,
Tom and Susan started to become pretty close.
Okay.
Oftentimes the young and single Tom would throw parties at his place where coworkers
and friends would come over and party all night long on kind of an isolated property
that he owned and drinking in the hot tub and what have you.
Quickly Tom and Susan would begin an affair because remember, she's still married at this
point by the way.
They decided on divorce, they haven't filed paperwork.
One that almost everybody at the office seemed to know about as well.
They're separated though.
Sure.
David and Susan would be on and off again during this time, David had actually moved
into his own apartment and bought all this nice furniture and stuff which probably just
pissed off Susan.
He even quit seeing Tiffany Moss, the cashier.
He quit seeing her.
He really thought that him and Susan were going to work on this relationship.
Cute.
Love it.
Okay.
Just everything was going so slimmingly, like everything was so amicable and like all the
stuff, so David's like, surely this will work at some point.
However Susan would fall pretty hard for Tom.
Tom wasn't so thrilled when he learned that although Susan and David weren't living together,
that she was still legally married.
That's all Susan needed to hear in order to serve David with the motherfucking paperwork.
Citing that David was the one that was unfaithful.
Therefore, divorce.
You had an affair in the past but now I'm actively having an affair but it's still your
fault.
But it's still your fault.
So Susan filed for divorce in September 1994 and shortly after that, Tom and Susan would
pick their relationship back up.
Susan applied to night school and she seemed to be doing well around this time.
However, on more than a few occasions at Tom's parties where various other gatherings, Susan
would get intoxicated and regularly throw herself at other men in front of Tom.
What?
She'd be flirting.
She'd even be touching other co-workers' husbands.
And on one occasion, she began to undress, getting fully nude in Tom's hot tub and
encouraging others to join her.
That's so embarrassing.
That's really embarrassing.
I'm blushing.
That's so embarrassing.
You are the secretary to the boss.
To the boss.
The big boss.
And you're dating his son.
Yeah, exactly.
And everybody knows.
Ugh.
You're married with two kids at home.
Uh-uh.
No, ma'am.
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Needless to say, this affair only lasted for about a month.
I'm sure that Tom loved her devotion to him, but Tom wasn't ready to settle down with
Susan, who essentially had a ready-made family with two kids, who clearly had some, as Tom
would put it, boy crazy tendencies.
Okay.
That's what he said.
Wow.
Susan tried to reassure Tom that her children had nothing to do with the relationship.
They already had a father and she wasn't looking to replace David.
However, this argument went escalate as the two mulled over these relationship issues.
And Susan began to get very infuriated.
She began to tell Tom that he wasn't the only person she was having an affair with
at work.
She's like, well, you know what?
Fuck you then.
It doesn't matter.
I have other people I can go have sex with if I want to.
She claimed that before and during the relationship that she had with Tom, she was also sleeping
with his father, Jay Finley.
What?
Like her direct boss, like the whole time.
And he, I don't know if she was sleeping with him before she even got hired, because
like she kind of just got this like secretary position, like under, you know what I mean?
Do you think that's why she got the position?
Maybe.
But then he's just like cool with her dating his son after that too?
I don't know.
That's weird.
Well, I guess he can't have a relationship with a subordinate.
So maybe he just didn't give a shit.
Or maybe he like couldn't give a shit.
Yeah.
And like Tom worked for a different department.
So it would have been okay.
You know what I mean between Susan and him, but not with like the father and her, you
know?
Ew, that's weird.
Tom was shocked, but that wouldn't be the only tea that Susan would be spilling this
day.
Oh no.
So she was talking about her sympathy from Tom and explain away her behavior.
She told Tom that only did her and her stepfather engage in what she considered to be consensual
sexual activity.
But that still to that day, she was still sleeping with her stepfather.
No fucking way.
That is so gross.
And she's like dragging about it.
She's like 23 now.
Yeah.
I don't know if she was bragging about it.
I think like apparently it was delivered in a way that was like, I just can't help it
because like I've been sleeping with my stepfather.
Yeah.
Like essentially he abused me and therefore I am that way.
Yeah, but I'm still having sex with him.
Yeah, exactly.
As I'm saying, you can't play the sympathy card like, oh, I was taken advantage of, he
abused me and then be like, but I'm still doing it.
Like this sounds bad and she is 100% a victim.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
I'm not trying to say otherwise, but she is continuing to do it after she knows that
it was wrong.
Yes.
That he did that, right?
Even though in her mind at that age, it was consensual.
It's not legal.
She clearly knows that now.
Yeah.
She's still continuing to do it.
There's no sympathy for that, right?
In my mind after she becomes of a certain age and she continues to do it.
Do you think there's like a reclamation there?
Like do you think like she continues to sleep with her stepfather now as an adult and it
be consensual or believe that it's consensual and because she felt like it wasn't kind of
consensual then?
So now it's like, I'm an adult.
I can make this decision.
Now it's my choice.
And now it's my choice.
Maybe.
Like it overrides that feeling of being taken advantage of.
I would feel like, I mean, I don't know how anyone would feel in that situation, but I
would assume that you would be angry with the person after you found out that it was,
in fact, you know, you were being taken advantage of and stuff and not fully forgive and just
be like, oh yeah, let's just keep doing that.
And the fact that she's married and she has having this affair with other people, what
does the stepdad have to do with any of that?
He doesn't even need to be in the picture if she has her husband and then this guy,
you know, Tom and allegedly the boss or whatever.
Do you think that she was telling Tom that like, but it wasn't true?
Or do you think that?
No, it's true.
Oh, it's true.
Yeah, it's absolutely true.
Because yeah, well, we find out later.
Oh, okay.
Geez.
So yeah, all of this is going on, right?
I don't know if it's more of like, let me just shock the shit out of you.
And then, you know, I don't know.
Or like feel bad for me.
It's like people, like when you're in an argument and like all they can do is like call you
fat or ugly, you know, it's like, oh great, like a low blow, you know, like, and is it
like, I don't know.
Am I just trying to say things to hurt you?
Yeah, to like break you down and then therefore you're going to come, you know?
Yeah.
Tom not intending to stay with Susan, but simply wanted her to leave his home because
this was happening at his home.
He placated Susan and essentially told her what she wanted to hear just to get her off
the property.
He promised to still show up to a lunch date that he, Susan and a few coworkers had planned
for the next afternoon.
Susan believed that Tom and her could mend their broken relationship and Susan left the
Findlay property in order to head back home.
The next morning on October 25th, 1994, Susan felt optimistic about the prospect that her
and Tom could work something out.
She woke up with the boys, she fed them breakfast, got them dressed and took them to daycare.
Michael and Alex were three and one at this point.
Susan then went to work and steamed down for sure, but she made it through the first half
of work and then took off to meet the group for lunch.
Tom did show up, but it was clear that he was pretty much uninterested in having more
than a few words exchanged with Susan.
She didn't like that.
No.
Not at all.
By the time Susan got back to work, she was a mess, like all over again.
She asked her supervisor if she could go home and her coworkers agreed, but kind of also
asked Susan if she was feeling okay.
Susan kind of broke down and began to pretty much explain what was going on in her life
and that she wasn't feeling well and all this stuff.
Later she relieved some of that pressure.
However, Susan stayed for another two or three hours at work, but she wouldn't be working.
She kept trying to corner Tom at work, following him around, calling his office to meet up,
and at one point she tried to return an orange sweater left in her car or something, like
girls desperate.
Like an excuse to see him.
Exactly.
Like, I like having her with me.
I know you want to be back.
Tom expressed that he didn't want to be with Susan and in fact he was appalled that she
was having an affair with his father.
Yeah.
Do you not get that?
After work, Susan drove to the daycare and picked up her kids.
While she was in the daycare parking lot, she actually ran into a co-worker named Sue.
Susan told Sue a bit about what was going on and convinced Sue to follow Susan over
to the local bar, which she knew that Tom was going to be there.
And she was like, I just want to confront Tom, but can you watch my kids?
Oh my God.
Like, he doesn't want to fucking talk to you.
So, eventually Susan left after some discussion, but Sue stayed behind.
Sorry, it's confusing.
Susan, Sue.
Yeah.
Susan left with her kids and Sue stayed behind to eat and have a few drinks.
This is like right down the street from their work, I'm assuming.
It was like, or either that or it's the only bar.
So at some points, like Tom was kind of sitting a few bar stools down from Sue.
At one point, Susan called the bar and asked to speak with Sue and was like, did he ask
about me?
Oh my God.
Yeah.
What is he saying?
Can you tell him this?
Can you ask him this?
And Sue was like, he hasn't said anything about you.
Like, he's not going to talk about, like, don't call here.
Yeah.
Why are you calling the bar and interrupting my meal?
Yeah.
He wasn't talking about her at all, which again, pissed her off even more.
Of course.
Around 8 p.m., Susan decided to dress up the boys and pile them back into the car.
Susan claimed that she wanted to go to Walmart with her sons since they were getting fussy
and she thought that a drive around would help.
About an hour later, while on their way back to the house, while stopped at a red light,
Susan was shocked when a man approached her window with a gun and ordered Susan out of
the red 1990 Mazda protégé.
What?
Susan got out of the car and the man, the man, the man, the man, Susan got out of the
car and the man hopped into the driver's seat and took off with her children in the
back seat.
No!
Oh my God, no, I would be so scared.
Susan ran towards the first John D. Lake neighborhood house that she could see, screaming,
please help me.
He's got my kids.
A black man has got my kids in the car.
The homeowner is called the police while trying to relay as much information from Susan to
them about the instance.
She explained the story to the homeowners describing the car and in which direction the perpetrator
went.
She said it headed towards the highway.
So immediately one officer was dispatched to Susan and the other was dispatched to the
highway to see if they could intercept.
Susan asked the homeowners if she could then call her mother after police arrived, that
if she could call her mother and then she called David.
Her mother didn't answer.
Police interviewed Susan swiftly as they knew that time was a factor in finding the
children safely.
Susan maintained her story of being carjacked at a light but couldn't provide a real clear
description of the suspect, just that it was a black male.
Police also noted what Susan was wearing, white jogging pants and an orange sweater.
After some of the family gathered in the area of the last known whereabouts of the children,
it was suggested that the family gather at a set location at one family member's home
so that any news would be relayed to all of them at once, which makes sense to me.
So they were going to go to Susan's family home.
Susan rode with David to her family's home and found it odd when Susan began talking
about calling Tom when they got back to the house and that Tom would likely want to come
over and that David would just have to accept that and not be mad about it.
Tom just has to be here for me.
He's going to want to be here for sure.
Yeah, he's going to want to be here for me.
She's using that to get him to talk to her.
Once home, investigators would come by to get a composite sketch of the perpetrator.
Susan had a very difficult time describing the man, speaking about little details such
as the man's eyebrows or cupid's bow.
But as previously mentioned, she gave very vague descriptions on bigger things like nose,
eye color or even mouth shape, which is unusual.
Because if you can see their eyebrows or what this looks like, you couldn't tell me
what their eye color was.
You got closed.
If anyone doesn't know what a cupid's bow is, it's like the top of your, like between
your nose and your mouth.
Yes.
It's the shape on your lips.
Some people don't know.
I didn't know what that was until recently.
Oh, like just now?
No, I knew what it was.
I found out, I guess, called it like a couple years ago.
I forget what this is called.
This is called something down here, too.
If anybody knows what the bottom lip.
Bottom lip anti-cupid's bow is called.
Ultimately, it was determined that the man was in his forties, a dark knit, he wasn't
a dark knit cap.
He had a dark knit cap, black or dark jeans and t-shirt and a plaid jacket on.
Very vague.
The next day, October 26th, investigators began to search the John D. Lake area, which
is kind of like a park area, but it does have a lake.
No sign of the car or the boys by helicopter, boat or on the ground at all.
The same day, Tom did call to talk about the boys, but Susan insisted on talking about
them ending their relationship instead, which Tom was disturbed by.
Children are missing, and that's what you want to talk about?
She's like, when are you going to come over?
Are we going to fix this?
Are you going to come over?
Are you coming over?
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
The Adam Walsh Foundation, do you know who Adam Walsh is?
So Adam Walsh is John Walsh.
He was the host for America's Most Wanted.
Like that guy?
His son was actually kidnapped from a grocery store.
And he's part of the reason why certain things like Amber Alerts exist, but they called them
Code Adams.
Maybe you heard of a Code Adam, where a child is missing, you lock down the store, no in
and out at all.
So Code Adams, the Adam Walsh Foundation is a memoriam of little Adam that was kidnapped.
Code pink in the hospital.
So they actually wanted to come meet with Susan and David and suggested that the couple
make a public plea for the safe return of the boys.
Statistically, it is more likely that information will be volunteered when the public sees the
parents of kidnapped victims.
Reluctantly, Susan and David agreed.
I feel like this is going to be like a Chris Watt situation.
Susan was to be the person to speak and plead with the public.
Her statement is as follows, or at least a little bit of it.
To whoever has our boys, we ask that you please don't hurt them and bring them back.
We love them very much.
I plead to the guy, please return our children to us safe and unharmed.
Everywhere I look, I see their play toys and pictures.
They are both wonderful children.
I don't know who else to put it and I can't imagine life without them.
Their wonderful children.
That seems a little detached in my opinion.
But you know, everyone believes differently.
These interview tapes are really interesting or these public announcement tapes are really
interesting if you ever watch them.
Investigators take Susan downtown for another interview.
The interview lasted about six hours and Susan repeated her story many times.
The next day on the 27th of October, both David and Susan agreed to a polygraph test.
And although David's showed no deception, Susan's was inconclusive.
Most notably, the most questionable topic being, quote, do you know where your children
are?
End quote.
I don't like that.
Susan began to change her story a little bit when confronted that no one was reported
seeing Susan and the boys at Walmart like she had claimed she had gone.
Susan admitted that she didn't go into Walmart at all because it would sound suspicious if
she claimed that she drove around for hours with her kids in the car.
That's not how that works.
That's not how that works at all.
You lie?
I drove around for a couple hours.
That's more so.
Furthermore, the light that Susan claimed that she was stopped at when this carjacking
happened is constantly green at this time of night.
The only time that the light would turn red is when another car is traveling across this
road triggering the sensor to change the lights, meaning that if Susan was sitting at this
red light and she was carjacked, someone would have witnessed it or at least seen them.
Actually, yeah, that's a really good point.
No one had come forward stating that they had seen this happen, and this was national
news at this point.
David was questioned about him and Susan's marriage, and David admitted that the two
had been having affairs on each other, and he said that she was talking to Tom Finley.
David stood by his belief that Susan would never harm their children, and it was honestly
beginning to become more upsetting that investigators were focused on their marriage instead of
finding their boys.
Susan herself, when asked if there would be any reason that she would want to harm her
children or want her children to disappear, Susan said, quote, no man would make me hurt
my children.
They were my life, end quote.
No one said anything about any man.
No one said anything about that.
They said, was there a reason that you would hurt your children?
No man would make me do that.
Sorry, that's not what we fucking asked.
Also, they were my life.
I didn't even catch that, ew, oh my god it is fucking Chris Watts.
Oh my god, like that is a big red flag, like the person that-
Past tense.
They know that they're gone, that's why they're using that verbage, ew I don't like
that.
The public plea was looked over by investigators along with some recordings and personal one-on-one
interviews.
They noticed that Susan showed emotion but never cried.
Oh, crocodile tears?
Yeah, well not even tears.
Like she's just like, I don't know how I'm gonna-
It's real bad.
That's-
When I thought about researching this case, all I could think of where there's like news
reports of her just being like, I just want you to return my babies because she's got
this real thick accent.
It's awful.
I don't understand how people don't realize that it's very obvious when they're like quote
unquote crying but there's no tears.
It's very clear that you're not actually crying so why did people try to fake it?
I don't get it.
No idea.
I think I don't remember what episode of something I was watching but it was somebody
where they kept wiping their face and it was like-
There was no tears.
There was no tears and if anything it made their face kind of red where it almost looked
like they were crying.
Yeah.
It was really interesting.
People are wild and out.
October 28th would come and go.
Investigators still searching for the missing children.
Speculation in the public began to rise that it was unlikely that a black man in his 40s
toting around two white babies surely would have been noticed by somebody right now.
That's a good point, yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, that was- a lot of the black community was pissed because they're like, there's no
way.
There's no fucking way.
Yeah.
When it's national news.
And it's just making like a really bad cloud like go over the community.
Yeah.
It was either the man disposed of the children somehow or it was all a fucking lie.
Yeah.
Not to mention that this case was huge like I said and at this point surely at least the
car would have been found.
Yeah, exactly.
Like I don't care how ludicrous it sounds if this man knew that they were looking for
this fucking car containing two white kids he'd be like, nope, like I'm gonna ditch this
car somewhere, right?
Exactly.
On October 29th, Susan and David were reached out by an American journal reporter who had
also lost his daughter due to a kidnapping.
Oh no.
And he wanted to talk to Susan and David about what happened that day.
After days of trying to arrange a meetup, Susan still refused.
Like refused to be interviewed.
Like by this person who had also lost a child.
She's like, no thanks, I don't want to help.
Yeah.
Like I'll pass on that.
Like-
I'm not helping, he was the young lady at Arty with that murder.
No, no, I know.
I met her at her kids' investigation.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Like she's like, no thanks, I don't need to be interviewed, I don't really care about
your situation.
So I'll just kind of like, no, no thanks.
Well that's what was even more suspicious is because like she would just feel fucking
guilty.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, talking to somebody who like actually like a perpetrator actually killed this man's
daughter.
Exactly.
So over 31st, a phone call to police in Union from Seattle held hope.
A 14 month old child was found abandoned by a man who had South Carolina plates in Seattle.
He matched Alex's description and the family was over the moon that one of the boys had
been found.
How long ago was this?
How long after they disappeared was this?
Oh this is days, this is like five days.
So there's plenty of time allegedly for someone to get from South Carolina to Seattle.
Sure.
In the car.
So it was the 31st and they were taken on the 25th.
So six days.
However, it was quickly determined that the boy was not Alex Smith.
Another press conference was to be held and the couple would go on national television
to discuss the circumstances surrounding the investigation so far.
On November 3rd, Susan and David were set to do three television interviews all in the
morning.
When asked if she had any involvement in concealing her children during the interview, Susan says
quote, I didn't have anything to do with the abduction of my children.
Whoever did this is a sick and emotionally unstable person end quote.
AKA me.
Interview after interview was exhausting for the couple and the agents could see that Susan's
deterioration with each question was more and more apparent.
Around 1.30pm in the afternoon, Sheriff Howard Wells and Susan began another interrogation
this time within the walls of a church.
Being asked again where her children were, Susan began to sob, like actually sob.
I was going to say like real sob this time.
Like real cry.
She started saying quote, I'm so ashamed.
I'm so ashamed.
She then asked calmly for Sheriff Wells gun because she wanted to kill herself.
Which of course he was like what?
No.
Absolutely not.
That's not possible ma'am sorry.
That's not critical.
But she didn't admit anything yet.
She just said I'm so ashamed.
I'm so ashamed.
Give me your gun.
Yeah.
And he began to ask why, what and console her.
It's so scary.
She said quote, you don't understand my children are not all right end quote.
Susan started on the day that the crime took place.
Stated that she had never felt so low before and she wanted her pain to stop.
She felt like she had messed up her whole entire life and sought to take her own life.
She drove the boys to the edge of John D Lake and put on Tom's sweater and decided
that she was going to die with her children.
She didn't want to leave them behind without their mother.
After attempting to put the car into drive three times but stopping herself, she enabled
the parking brake.
She stepped out of the car, reached inside and released the parking brake sending her
children into the lake.
She said that she loved her children and that she regretted the action immediately.
But after standing there watching the car sink into the lake, she did nothing.
It took about six minutes for the car to fully sink before Susan ran to the nearest neighbor's
house.
So she had six whole fucking minutes to do something.
Yeah.
No, I'm sorry, way longer than that because she couldn't put the car in drive three
times and then did.
First of all, I never understand the I want to kill myself.
So I'm going to kill these people with me.
I never understand that fucking mindset.
And then to completely change it around and be like, oh, okay, well, I'm not going to
kill myself, but I'll go ahead and just kill my children.
Like what the actual fuck.
Just like in the Gilbert Jordan case, we kind of touched on that, that he probably wanted
to drink himself to death, but he would never do it.
You know, that's so awful though.
These babies.
They're babies.
They're three and they're one.
Sheriff Wells immediately contacted field agents to gather divers for another search
of John D Lake.
The car was eventually located and both Michael and Alex were found still strapped to their
car seats.
After Wells arrested and transported Susan, instead of driving to the scene, he headed
to the Russell home to break the news that although the boys were found, they were not
alive and that in fact Susan had killed them.
And before the news could get to it, obviously, do you think at one point she was like, you
know, maybe Tom will talk to me now that I'm going through this terrible tragedy?
Yeah, absolutely.
I believe that.
God.
I think that she thought that.
The family was in shock, of course, although David had had his suspicions about his wife.
He had always believed Susan when she said that she would never harm the children.
Even after learning about the deaths of their son, David tried to believe that Susan either
falsely confessed where it was an accident that she needed to cover up or that she had
a mental break of some kind.
Either way, he didn't believe that it was intentional.
Yeah.
I mean, how could you?
This is someone that you've been married to or at least been an apparent partnership
with for many years, at least three years, now probably four years.
You don't want to immediately believe that that person's capable of something like that.
And David had always described Susan as a wonderful mom.
He always did.
After learning of the deeper details, the affairs and the time that it took to sink
the car, David kind of changed his tune towards Susan.
Susan was put on a 24-hour suicide watch for the eight months before her trial since it
was determined that she may be a harm to herself or others.
I mean, shit, she asked the cop for his gun before she even confessed.
The following February, after multiple evaluations, it was determined that Susan suffered from
dependent personality disorder.
A dependent personality disorder in the DSM-5 is described as a pervasive and excessive
need to be taken care of that leads to submissive and clingy behaviors and fears of separation
beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five
or more of the following.
One has difficulty making everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and
reassurance by others.
Two needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of their life.
Three has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because of fear of loss, support,
or approval.
Four has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on their own because of lack
of self-confidence and judgment or abilities rather than a lack of motivation or energy.
Five goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others to the point of volunteering
to do things that are unpleasant, which I found.
Yeah, you can see that.
Six feels uncomfortable or helpless when alone because of exaggerated fears of being unable
to care for oneself.
Seven urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close
relationship ends.
Which is, yep, that's Susan.
Seven eight is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of
themselves.
So, really.
That's really interesting and the funny thing is that when you said adjustment disorder
way earlier on in the episode, the first thing that came to my mind was dependent personality
disorder and I didn't say it.
I was thinking it and I was like, well, just wait.
I feel like she meets the criteria for this.
For sure.
But again, she was young when she was diagnosed with adjustment disorder.
I was like, let me see if they catch on to dependent personality disorder.
I actually just recently heard about that one.
I didn't actually, I haven't ever studied that one before recently and I just heard
about it and just learned about it recently.
So that's interesting that you brought this case.
Well, I think a big buzzword sometimes is codependency.
Yeah.
But to literally have it as a disorder, like a diagnostic disorder, it's pretty interesting.
That is really interesting.
Psychiatrist Dr. Seymour Halleck said that Susan, quote, feels like she can't do anything
on her own.
She constantly needs affection and becomes terrified when she believes that she will be
left alone.
End quote.
During these evaluations, it was revealed in the courtroom that Susan had maintained a
sexual relationship with her stepfather for the last eight to nine years.
Shortly after, Linda left Bev and filed for divorce.
Wow.
That's, I mean, shit.
Yeah.
I personally would probably leave the first time that someone did that, even if it wasn't
isolated incident.
Yeah, I'm prosecuting.
Yeah.
But finding out however many years later that it's been ongoing.
Oh my God.
For like eight or nine years.
I can't imagine how gross Linda felt like learning that.
That's your fucking daughter.
Bev wrote to Susan in shale saying, quote, my heart breaks for what I have done to you.
I want you to know that you do not have all the guilt for this tragedy.
End quote.
Now you want to take some fucking responsibility.
What a martyr.
God.
Susan's defense team offered a plea deal.
Susan would plead guilty to the crime to spare anyone from having to go through trial, first
of all, for a 30 year to life sentence without parole, just to not have the death penalty
on the table, essentially.
The judge denied this and furthermore insisted that the trial take place within Union County,
like where it occurred.
Because I mean, it's small county.
It's true.
Just everyone in Union knew exactly what had happened, knew these people, very integrated
into what was happening.
So the defense team tried to plea and say, we want the trial moved to like another county
where this isn't happening for a fair trial.
The judge denied that too.
He's like, no.
No, we're not going to do that.
But the judge also reassured the defense team by saying, I doubt very much that her neighbors
and friends are going to find the death penalty out of this, which kind of makes sense a little
bit.
It was just that the severity of the crime was so severe that he could not take death
off the table.
Yeah, I don't blame him.
Shit.
I mean.
After Susan was diagnosed and placed on medication, the judge found her competent to stand trial.
Of course, the defense painted Susan as a woman that had a real mental diagnosis, which
she did.
And that had, it had never been treated.
And eventually she did have a mental break.
The prosecution portrayed Susan as a promiscuous woman who only wanted to continue a relationship
with a man who didn't want children, not to mention the frenzy that she created by putting
the black community in jeopardy through her lives.
I didn't even think about the fact that, yeah, you're right.
Tom was like, I don't want to be a father.
And that might have been another thing that she was like, well, you don't have to be,
you know, and that sounds really bad.
But I didn't even think about that.
And also, yeah, that's like really awful that she just was like, oh, yeah.
I was a black man.
Like seriously, you just like ruined the stigma.
Are you just like caused a stigma against that community?
It's like no fucking reason.
Yeah, for no fucking reason.
And it happens a lot.
It's not the only time that that's happened.
Men have been, I mean, men and women in the black community have been murdered because
of that because they think that they're taking down this perpetrator who's like this bank
robber or, you know, or whatever it is.
And they're looking for a specific person and they just, because of racially profiling
someone, they think that's the perpetrator and the guy doesn't know the person doesn't
understand what's going on.
And they get shot and killed.
I mean, you know, over nothing because of somebody's fucking lie.
Because someone doesn't want to take accountability for what they fucking did.
On July 22nd, 1995, it took the jury just two hours to hand down the verdict of guilty
on both counts of murder.
The same jury would actually determine her sentencing as well, and in a heartbreaking
testimony, David expressed how his life was changed forever beginning October 25th, 1994.
He said, quote, all my hopes, all my dreams, everything that I plan for the rest of my
life ended.
I didn't know what to do.
Everything I had planned on, my kids, my life were gone, end quote.
I mean, like you don't ever think that your kids are going to be taken away from you.
You don't ever think that you're going to outlive your kids.
Like that's awful.
Poor David.
Yeah, he's, yeah.
And even like his home life, you know, was kind of rough too.
A very unusual piece of evidence was presented to the jury in the sentencing hearing.
They were shown a reenactment video of the inside of a car, the same year, same model,
as the car that the boys drowned in from the boys' perspective.
It was like a video camera in the back seat.
Oh my God.
Water rushed through the car.
The windows broke under pressure.
The courtroom was completely silent as the video rolled on for six long minutes.
Oh my God, I have full body chills.
That is so heavy.
Oh my gosh.
Like that's pulling at your heartstrings.
Yeah.
Aren't they not allowed to do that?
This is just for the sentencing.
This is not for the trial.
Oh, okay.
I see.
On July 27th, 1995, Susan was sentenced to 30 years to life in prison with the possibility
of parole.
Susan over the years has stood by her defense's explanation that she was struggling with mental
illness, even from her young age of being sexually abused to the immense amount of
postpartum depression that she had after the birth of her children.
In 2015, she wrote, quote, I am not the monster society thinks I am.
I am far from it.
Everything went very wrong that night.
I was not myself.
I was a good mother and I loved my boys.
There was no motive and that's why it wasn't a planned event.
I was not in my right mind, end quote.
So that was in 2015.
Back up just a little bit, 2001.
Susan had been caught smoking weed and was actually caught with various contraband.
While in prison?
Yes.
Susan had sexual relationships with two guards.
Here we go again, inappropriate relationships with men like her whole life.
These two guards were tried and convicted for having sex with a person unable to give
consent.
I don't know if you know that.
The prisoner isn't able to give consent.
Yeah.
That's, well good, fuck those guys.
Yeah.
And of course they were fired.
Well, but then again, like who knows how many other women they've probably taken advantage
of in their work, the time that they're working there.
Well, one has actually been interviewed by like Barbara Walters or something because he
was like, you know, was talking about how manipulative and how cunning she is and how
she deserves to be in prison for the rest of her life because if she gets out, she's
just going to do it to more people.
Well, yeah.
And if he, I mean, not to say that it's, he doesn't have any fault.
Of course he does in that scenario, but she probably was really convincing.
It's true.
I mean, he's been a power position.
He is a corrections officer.
Like he, no, it's absolutely his fault.
He did the wrong thing.
He did the wrong.
Susan is housed in the Camille Griffin Graham Correctional Institution in South Carolina.
She is eligible for parole in 2024.
Just next year.
Wow.
Okay.
Some fireworks crack a lacquan.
David Smith is now happily married with two beautiful kids.
He has said that the pain he experienced at the hands of Susan will follow him for the
rest of his life.
He said when he first started thinking about potentially marrying someone or having children
again, he was terrified.
But all of that changed with the birth of his first child, Savannah, who he had with
Tiffany Moss.
Oh, the girl here.
The woman he's under fair with.
I thought that was kind of a cute little happy ending, like a little like time.
The cashier for this, from the store.
I love that.
He said, quote, I looked at Savannah and she was looking at me and I promised I wouldn't
be afraid to love her and take care of her and always protect her and be there for her.
It's really sweet.
He said about the surprise conception because it was, quote, I think God knew for me to
have any more children, it would have to be by chance.
He didn't think that he would ever want, like he could get over that and like that it would
scare him too much.
So, you know, this conception was like, okay, this is handed to me.
Wow, how cool.
It's really interesting.
Yeah, so Tiffany Moss and David, they married for a little bit, I think they got a divorce,
but then he had another child named Nicholas and he is still married today.
He said, I've said it before, I admit to being a lousy husband, but I've always been
a good father to my kids.
So yes, so he has Savannah and Nicholas now.
He said, quote, I enjoy being a father very much.
For me, there is no greater love in the world than the love of a child.
I'm still here.
I'm still making it every day.
Wow, good for him.
I know.
Oh, that's so sad.
Isn't that?
What a story, man.
I did not expect any of that.
It's so funny because like I was having this conversation with someone yesterday about
talking about past relationships and like, you know, how awkward it can be.
Like when you're like kind of talking to somebody or like whatever.
And I said like, I think it's really important to talk about your past relationships and
to know where certain things come from and why it didn't work out.
Yeah.
And that must be a very difficult conversation for David to have.
It must be.
Yeah, it must be.
No matter.
I mean, there's a lot of terrible exes in this world, but yeah, definitely.
Susan Smith was one of them.
Wow.
Yeah, that's wild.
I find it interesting that you brought a case having to do with children because I know
that that's not normally your style and that's not really something that we've covered
a lot lately or at all really.
But that was a really, really good story.
And it almost seems to me as if she, of course, she was diagnosed with adjustment disorder
as a teenager.
And it almost seems like it kind of developed into dependent personality disorder as she
grew older.
And you know, we all know that most personality disorders, they can show up anywhere from
like 15 to like 25 is like the sweet spot for personality disorder.
So that makes a lot of sense.
But I think one of the biggest reasons for her doing what she did, especially with the
men growing up was, you know, she had so much love for her biological father and then he
was taken from her.
And for seemingly in her mind, like, like why?
Like for no reason.
And I think that really skewed her mindset on what a relationship with men is.
And almost like with the dependent personality disorder, every man that I love is going to
leave me.
Right.
That's the first thing that was ingrained in her mind.
Which also might abuse her because yeah, I think with Bev by the time that, you know,
she was probably becoming interested in boys.
Then it's almost, I mean, I don't know if it was her first interaction with somebody,
but either way, it's a violation.
But in her mind, it's, oh, I get approval.
I'm seeking approval and I'm gaining it through this act with this man.
Well that's what I was going to say too, is that with Bev, you know, when her mother found
out what was happening, she kind of removed herself from Bev.
He left the home again leaving Susan.
So maybe that's why she also continued that relationship because she was afraid of him
leaving.
And even though she, you know, met David and, you know, she had the people at the grocery
store and then Tom, like, she's still, it's not just one person, I guess, that she feels
she needs.
She doesn't want anyone to leave her.
So that may explain why she was still engaging with the stepfather.
And I think you would think that that dependent personality disorder would translate to the
children.
It would be dependent on them, but again, they're children.
They can't give her anything.
And that part of that disorder, like you explained earlier, is you feel like you can't make decisions
without someone's approval or input.
You feel like you can't be alone without someone's help and the children were children.
Just not, you know, they can't give you advice or give you companionship or anything like
that.
But Tom can in her mind.
So what's the choice here?
In her mind, it's unfortunately harming the children.
So that's just, again, I'm trying to go through it with her mindset.
Of course, this disorder makes people, any kind of disorder can skew your judgment and
your psyche.
And she clearly admitted it later on.
But the fact that she was medicated during the time before she stood trial, who knows
what she's getting in prison, but the fact that she's still able to manipulate and calm
these men in jail is very interesting.
When you know that she probably has a regulation of some kind.
Yeah, exactly.
That's a really interesting one.
And I think that is the first time that we've done that type of diagnosis.
Yeah, yeah, especially a dependent disorder like that.
It's really interesting.
Well, I will say I have a really great case next week.
But the one I'm doing after that is very similar childhood wise to this person, which I honestly
was like at...
Not ooh, because ew.
But like at one point, I was like, no, no, not the stepfather stuff, but before.
At one point I was like, is the person that I'm doing the person she's doing, I just didn't
know her real name.
Like I was really thinking that for like the first 10 minutes, I was like, oh my gosh,
I would have to research someone else.
But no, it's not that.
Stay tuned for a collaboration happening in just a few, like what, two more weeks?
It'll be one week after this comes out.
So one week after you guys are hearing this.
So it'll be next Thursday, the second.
We are going to do...
Should we just announce it?
Maybe we should.
We should just announce it.
I think so.
I'll give you both sided for it.
Let's do it.
So we'll have a mental breakdown coming out on Monday.
I have a very interesting mental breakdown.
It's gonna be, we always say this, way different than anything we've done.
It is going to be mental breakdown meets true crime.
So it's going to be a complete medley of those two on Monday and then next Thursday,
the second, Koelle.
We are going to be in collaboration with Movication.
We have been kind of excited about this for a little bit now.
So essentially we will be tackling...
Don't say who it is.
No?
Okay.
So this is like the only time that I actually know.
We are going to be tackling a case that is a very well known case and has actually been
the inspiration behind plenty of horror films.
So Movication will also be incorporating this real life individual with some movies and
some information that is really, really exciting.
I think they're going to be doing...
Well, I'm not even going to say what the movies are.
Yeah, no, don't.
No, because you know how they roll.
They roll like us.
Exactly.
We're very, very excited for a collaboration with Movication.
Go like them on Instagram.
They are wherever you listen to podcasts.
Yeah, absolutely.
And yeah, we were just saying usually, of course, you guys know that we don't tell each
other who we're doing, but for this specific instance, Koel does know who I am bringing,
but we're really excited about it.
And I've had it researched for like literally a month now.
It's just been sitting in my computer, so I'm waiting to tell the story.
And it's going to be one that you guys know, and it's going to be one that I actually didn't
know as much as I thought I did.
And I say that all the time, but definitely a good story.
Oh, not a good story, but interesting story.
I'm excited to talk about horror films in spring.
Yeah.
It's going to be something that you're going to have to be, I mean, you're already knowledgeable
about it, but I don't really watch things like that very often.
So maybe I'll have to watch between now and then maybe I can get like some, you know,
information of my own.
And then I know that we also have a DAK live in the works.
I'm really excited about that.
We are going to potentially be doing one, I would say maybe the next couple of weeks.
We have a new guest that's coming on with us to do a DAK live completely unedited, completely
raw.
We don't know what we're talking about just yet, but it's going to be similarly to the
Clark Finney episode.
It's probably going to be personal stories and just kind of general conversation about
mental health, mental illness, things like that.
We're all going to have to fit in this closet too.
We are.
Yeah, it's going to be hard, but we'll figure it out.
Anyway, that is all.
Do you have anything else?
No, I think that's it.
Okay.
Well, we will see you guys later.
Thank you for listening and thank you for all of the support on social media.
We are getting up there with our followers.
And if you would like to, please check out our sponsors.
They are great.
We'll see the links in all of our show notes.
And then on every episode, we have something in our show notes for that.
Yeah.
But yeah, that is all we have and we will see you later.
Love you.
Bye.
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