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Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Koelle. And I'm

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Kenna, last time I checked. Guys, let's just jump into it. Yeah, I think we should just

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jump into it. Holiday season has been hectic for everyone. We need a little bit of case.

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I have two guesses of who I think you're doing, but I'm going to keep them to myself. And

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if I'm right, I will be honest and tell you. But if I'm not right, then of course I'll

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also be honest and tell you. We are going to be talking about Herman Webster Mudgeit.

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I was way off. Way off? I thought it was either Jack the Ripper or H.H. Holmes. So I thought

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you were going to do one of those too because you said it was old-timey. It is old-timey,

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but this is Herman Webster Mudgeit. He was born May 16th, 1861 in Gilmonton, New Hampshire.

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It's a parent's Levi Horton Mudgeit and Theodette, Page Price. Theodette. Theodette. And that was

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so interesting. They were each some of the first American-born descendants of English

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immigrants in this particular area of New Hampshire, which I thought was really interesting.

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He was the middle child of five children that the couple would have. Herman had an older sister,

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Ellen, an older brother, Arthur, then Herman, then a younger brother, Henry, and younger sister,

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Mary, so big family. Why would they do like two H's and then like all different letters? I feel

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like they should have done like a theme or like all different. Henry and Herman. Yeah, Henry and

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Herman, right? Yeah, they're too close. And then Ellen, as I was writing it, I was like Ellen and

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then Helen. And I was like, wait, no, it's Mary. Ellen and Helen. Ellen and Helen and Arthur.

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Ellen, Mary, Arthur. The, yeah, Ellen, Arthur, Herman, Henry, Mary. That's so weird. Why would you

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make, okay, I don't know. Maybe they twins? Are they all biblical? They didn't give me the ages,

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which I thought was weird because I really wanted to know the age, like at least, because I always

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wonder about that, how close they are in age. Horton, the father, was from a family of farmers,

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so he actually inherited what? Horton, here's a who. I know, it was Horton. Horton, the father,

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was from a family of farmers. He inherited the trade and would also paint houses. He was actually

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really successful at it, so the kids were born into a pretty privileged environment,

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which is nice to hear, especially for five kids. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you have the means,

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right? Right. The Adate, who was a former school teacher, would stay at home with the kids,

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raising all five of them in a traditionally Methodist home. Shit, I mean, that's like five

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extra full-time jobs, raising five kids. Yeah. And then you can teach all of them. Yeah, of course.

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Fine. She was described as a rather cold and distant woman, however. Oh no. She would often

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mentally and emotionally abuse the children. I like forgot for a second that we were on at like a

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true crime podcast and I was like, this seems like the perfect American family. This is a nice story.

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It's really nice. They're just a really nice family. Likewise, Herman's father was actually an

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alcoholic. He would hit the children and was considered to be a very strict disciplinarian.

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Well, it was nice while it lasted. Surprise, surprise. We're talking about true crime.

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It was like four minutes into the podcast. It's already like, where's the shit?

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We already know his name, so you know, it's not going to be good for Herman.

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In one instance, Horton had actually soaked rags in kerosene and began to hold them over one of the

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children's mouths to keep them from crying. No. Isn't that awful? That's terrible. Like all those

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fumes, like that's like really dangerous. Oh my God. Stop crying. Don't breathe. Let's just die.

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Horrific. Oh my God. I'm not laughing because it's funny. That's just like,

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no, you laugh at the ridiculousness. You don't laugh because it's funny. You laugh because it's

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so it's out of this world. Yeah. Like who thinks to do that? Yeah. He would also use starvation as

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a form of discipline and he would also force the children to isolate as form of punishments,

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specifically in the attic. Oh my gosh. Herman loved to escape reality, of course. He was actually

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known to read a lot. He read a lot of Edgar Allan Poe and Jules Verne. So he was really

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just like kind of otherworldly, like when it came to his escape. Yeah, it almost seems like he's

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trying to like throw himself into like the world of these books. And of course this is before

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Netflix and all that good stuff. So he's using novels, it makes sense. He also recollected around

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this time that he had decided to leave the house as often as possible and would spend hours at a

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time in a forested area by the house. Herman would spend so much time in the woods, in fact,

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that he actually began to experiment with different ways to capture animals. Okay. And sometimes

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torture them, but most often releasing them. Not okay. But again, it's a prelude, right?

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And the triad that we've talked about. Right. One of the three. Despite his home life, however,

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Herman was a bright kid, as you see. He would do well in school, however, it was mostly the

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source of his bullying while he was in school. They made fun of him for having good grades,

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which is like the stupidest thing you can make fun of somebody for. You're smart.

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Like in 21 Jump Street, when he's like, yeah, rule number one of high school, don't try at

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anything. Rule number two, make fun of people who do try. And then he goes and he's like,

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oh, he's studying. Look at the nerd. Look at the nerd. Yes. Exactly. It's the worst thing you can

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believe someone over is being smart. Like really? And doing well. Yeah, like good for you. Like,

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you're a success. You're going to be successful later in life. But I'm not.

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He was a little weird, though. And he also had a wonky eye. So maybe that's another reason why

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they made fun of him. No, that's so awful. Poor thing. Like poor kid, you know, as a kid.

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Meek child. One time when Herman was walking through the small town, a group of schoolmates

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have spotted him and proceeded to push Herman inside of a local doctor's office. So during the

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day this doctor's office was unlocked, it was probably lunchtime, something like that. The

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doctor's office was unlocked. Also, this is a very small town and it's in the late 1800s.

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Yeah, whatever. So Herman had actually expressed to a lot of schoolmates that he hated this doctor's

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office. He hated walking by it because it actually had like a real life skeleton hanging,

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like as part of, you know, anatomy and medical shit, the way that it was then.

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But it was a real skeleton. And he had always freaked out every time he walked by it. He had

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always said that it made him really uncomfortable. So these school kids pushed him into the doctor's

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office and forced him to lay on the ground with the skeleton on top of him. Oh, hell no. And they

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placed the skeleton's hands over his face. Oh, hell no. Oh, hell no. I would freak out. Isn't

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that gross? I would freak the fuck out. I don't blame him. And that's fucked up because they're

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literally getting to like the root of his fear. Like that is so fucked up. He's terrified of it.

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But he did say the longer that he laid there, the more comfortable that he got. And he later

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actually credited this instance as one of the reasons he overcame his fear of death. No. And

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furthering his interest in studying anatomy and becoming a doctor. And much else. A doctor,

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I'm assuming. He later said about the incident, quote, it was a wicked and dangerous thing to do

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of a child of tender years and health. But it proved a heroic method of treatment designed

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ultimately to cure me of my fears. And to inculcate in me first a strong feeling of curiosity

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and later a desire to learn which resulted years afterwards in my adopting medicine as a profession.

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Okay, so I don't know this case, but it kind of seems like he's like, okay, yeah, like this is

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the reason why I became a doctor. But it also seems like he's going to use that as like an excuse

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for like what he does later. Like, oh, yeah, well, they bullied me and like maybe not afraid of death.

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So like I just kill people. So I just I kind of see that this is where that's going. I might be

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wrong. Well, I mean, we're here for a reason. Heightening his curiosity, Herman began to experiment

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even further with animals and now began killing them and dissecting them. And he started calling

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them his surgeries that he was performing. And how old was he? At this time, I think he's about 10.

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Really? 910. Yeah. Yikes. So just to give everybody an idea, medicine around this time was

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actually booming. The first clinical trials to treat malaria were performed in 1860s. The company

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Bear would purchase aspirin after its invention in the late 1890s. And nitrous oxide was introduced

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with into regular procedures by the 1870s. Oh, so this is like everything is booming as far as the

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medical community. Yeah. We just yeah. Sorry. With all these medical advances around Herman,

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he was really dedicating himself to the idea that he would become a doctor someday. He would get his

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hands on as many medical journals as possible, researching as much as he could about various

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surgeries or treatments. He would essentially perfect his craft on his animal patients and

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became very steady with a blade when cutting and dissecting as well as skinning the animals.

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Okay, like that's cool and all, but like do it legally. Don't just like

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experiment. I mean, I guess back then it probably wasn't illegal to kill animals. Yeah,

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to kill a rabbit, not on a farm. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. But still, that's kind of fucked up.

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Like do it humanely. Like go to school for it. I mean, when you can and then use cadavers,

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like people that donate their bodies on purpose for these things, you know. But don't you know

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that he laid with a skeleton and that's why he wants to be a doctor? Oh, he just lays with

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a dead. It sounds like he's not my casey. Just crawl up into this coffin real quick.

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When Herman was just 11 years old, he witnessed a friend fall to his death after the boys were

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playing in an abandoned building. Although it was never confirmed, speculation grew in the town

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that Herman was the one to push the boy to his death. Herman denied this ever happened, but did

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say that the event weighed on him mentally and carried it and he carried it for the rest of his

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life. It's kind of hard because in general, like, it's really difficult to determine like whether

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or not someone was pushed or someone jumped because it's like the same trajectory and the fact that

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this was like so long ago, like, who knows, he is the only one that knows the real truth as to

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what happened, like if it was an accident or if it was on purpose or if he did it himself. Yeah,

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you know, it's really interesting. Doing this whole case, there was a lot of like,

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cheese may that it was like, is this true? Is this not true? Not confirmed? Could be confirmed?

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It was a lot of that. Besides all of this, Herman being as smart as he was, he graduated high school

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by age 16 from Philip Exeter Academy, which is ancient by the way, and it's still around and

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everybody should Google it because it's weird. He soon after began teaching in various areas around

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his small town and around this time, Herman had actually gained a lot of distance from his family.

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He began taking care of himself, he began to dress very nicely, groomed himself well,

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and just overall, I'm taking more pride in his looks. So it's no surprise that he eventually

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met a woman by the name of Clara Lovering, and shortly after their meeting, the two eloped without

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anyone's knowledge in the summer of 1878, with a couple were just 17 years old. Oh my gosh,

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they eloped? They eloped at 17. Wow. And it just reminds me. I'd be pissed. I would too.

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We like thanks for the fucking invite. Well, you know, he hates his family, so

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or at least his parents. But yeah, just another one of those instances where you see somebody

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marrying somebody very quickly. Yeah, very impulsive. Very impulsive. I'm sure she knows

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all about his animal abuse and torture as well. I'm sure he told her everything. Yeah. And about

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the kerosene rags. Yeah, of course. Soon after they got married, they welcomed a baby boy just

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seven months later, do the math. Oh, that's really interesting. So she got pregnant like right away

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and they were like, let's go get married. So that no one gets mad. Clara's father was actually a

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well known figure around their town of Alton. So that may explain why they got married in a rush.

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Yeah, I couldn't see that. So yes, that was their son, Robert Lovering Mudgeit.

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That was her son. Ring a bell? It does not. Okay, good. It shouldn't. He didn't do anything.

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He didn't do anything. He's fine. I think he became a lawyer. He's actually a good guy. He's a good

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guy. Clara never really spoke ill about the marriage around this time, but she did complain to a few

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friends that Herman had a tendency to be very pushy about sex. Interesting. So with this new

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family, Herman decided it was time to go back to school and earn a degree. After all, his passion

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was for medicine. Clara had agreed to support Herman and their son while Herman went through his

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schooling. And he went to Burlington, Vermont, to the University of Vermont, which was a few

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towns over. It's about a two and a half hour drive now. So four hours probably if you're gonna be

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horsing it or hiking it. Which is funny. That's like a few towns over and it's like another state.

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That's so cool that he can like just travel like for the day like to another state. We can't do that

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in Texas, everyone. It wasn't for the day. For school though. Oh, he stayed there. Yeah, exactly.

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Essentially, you could travel for the day and come back. It's really just like the closest beach to

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where we live is still two and a half hours away. It's not even two hours. We couldn't get

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anything in two hours. True. Yeah, so he moved there to be there for school. So he would visit

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the family as often as he could. He would bring money and stuff like that or rather take money.

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Clara actually to help Megan's meet became a she was like an alterator. She did alterations

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in sewing. He would kind of come into town and like help out with the baby for a little bit.

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But mostly ask Clara for money because she also had a well off dad. And then he would just go back

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to school. Yeah. And she was just like cool with that. I don't know if she was cool with it,

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but it happened. I mean, she had a new baby, right? I mean, she was like, oh, he's going to school to

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be this doctor. Like he's probably, you know, it's a little bit for me to sacrifice now, but later.

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Yeah, he's going to have a really great career. That's true. After a year at the University of

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Vermont in 1882, he transferred to the University of Michigan, which at the time was the only

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university to have its own campus hospital, which I thought was cool. That's interesting.

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So Clara ended up moving her and the baby to Ann Arbor to be closer to Herman. However,

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within the year, the couple would split when Herman started showing signs of being physically

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violent towards her. Oh no. Yeah. There's the poop. There's the poop. So she would move back to New

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Hampshire and while Herman made a small attempt in writing and supporting his family back home,

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eventually the correspondence would dwindle into nothingness. Okay. So while at university,

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Herman began to work on cadavers, which fed into his obsession with human anatomy and death.

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There it is. During his stay at the university, Herman found himself broke and without much money.

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After all, medical school is expensive and his wife wasn't there anymore. Exactly. He was in

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bumming off his wife and his father-in-law. During this time, a smallpox outbreak had kind of taken

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over the area he was living in. So he came up with a scheme to make money off of this. No. He went from

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door to door selling smallpox vaccines in advance to desperate people for cheap. No. Oh my God,

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what was in them? He didn't just like saline. No. He said, we're coming out with this vaccine. If you

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pay me now, I'll bring it to you when it comes out. Oh, that's so sad. And so he just took the money

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and they just waited and he never came back. And he never came. That's sad. It's a dick. Well, I mean,

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can you imagine like terrified people just stuck in their house? It's like COVID, right? Like,

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just stuck in your house because you can't go anywhere because everybody has fucking smallpox

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and then you're like guaranteed that you're going to be protected and then somebody took off with

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your money. And then you're not. Yeah. So he was never caught doing this. And in fact, it gave him

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the courage to continue to keep scamming people. So the next juice he came up with was a plan to use

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medical cadavers. Once they serve their purpose on the campus, of course, he would mutilate the

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corpses beyond recognition. He would open several life insurance policies with several different

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insurance companies. And then he would provide them with the bodies saying that it was those people.

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And then collect the money. Like he would put it in his like he would be the recipient of the

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life insurance. Did he just like walk into the insurance place with like the body in his arms?

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Like here is the proof. See, I don't know. Because that's the way it was kind of like here's your

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proof. Fend to me. Fend to me, you know? But I don't know if there's like, if he could make like,

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I don't think he can make death certificates at the school. I don't know. Because like, I don't know.

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Maybe they had the death certificate at the school because they needed it for like

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the research stuff. Yeah, I don't know. It's so weird. Isn't that weird? It's like,

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scary. So he would claim that they were people that like weren't those people though,

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like the bodies. Like a stack of bodies and like essentially the back of his horse and he just

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like took it to other places. It was like here's like takes them off one by one. Like this has been

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like this has been bring out your dead. It was essentially like that. That's what it sounded

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like to me. I don't know how many times he actually did that. He made it seem like he was doing it

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like every other day. I think he only did it like three times. Just like an abundance of bodies.

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Like he's just like well off. I think that yeah, because I mean they were getting he was getting

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like a thousand dollars, you know, or $2,000 per body. I mean, quite a bit of money. It's like,

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yeah, this is this guy. It's like actually I'm that guy. So he did this a few times in the two

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years that he was finishing up college. He almost didn't graduate however at some point in 1884.

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Herman was accused of promising to marry a widow that claimed that he had asked her to marry him.

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And he was using this woman for her husband's life insurance policy that she was awarded.

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Yeah, I don't know why this would prevent him from graduating like I don't know if it looked

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bad on the school. Well, he was already married too. He's already married to Clara. That's true.

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So I don't know if it was like it looked bad on the school or they didn't want like the

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reputation of somebody that's being fraudulent or something like that. Yeah, either way,

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he did graduate medical school in 1884. So by this point, Herman had decided that he enjoyed

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counting people. Clare. So he moved to New York and became a principal, which is like the weirdest

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thing that you could become after graduating medical school. Yeah, what the hell? No, no. He became a

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fucking principal. While he was a principal at the school in New York, a young boy went missing.

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Rumors began to spread that Herman Mudgeit was the last to be seen with the boy, although when

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interviewed he said that it was true that the boy was walking with him that day, but that the boy

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had expressed that he had intentions of running away back to his home state of Massachusetts.

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Who does that sound like? Who was it? Gazing. Gazing. He just ran away. He left me a message on the

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answering machine that he was going to run away, but I deleted it. But I deleted it. That crucial

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piece of evidence and this fucking piece of evidence that could absolve me. Really? I love that one.

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Once it was clear that Herman was not a person of interest, Herman himself decided to move almost

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immediately. He moved to Philadelphia and he began working in an asylum, although he didn't stay for

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very long, which makes me wonder if he thought that it might be an easy group of targets to scam.

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But they're literally called wards of the state for a reason. It's because they don't have any

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control over their assets. So I bet he went there trying to scam them and then he's like,

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wait, you don't have a say. Yeah. Well, I was thinking more. It's like he just thought that they

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were easy prey. He could convince them because they're out of their mind to give them sign over

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assets or something. But that didn't work. That's an interesting thought. So after he quit there,

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he started working as a pharmacist in a local pharmacy. While working at this drug store,

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a young boy was actually poisoned to death by ingesting something that Herman had given the

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boy. Again, Herman denied doing anything wrong, claiming that the boy must have had an adverse

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reaction to the to the medication that he couldn't predict. I'm sorry, you're a fucking pharmacist

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now, apparently. So how would you know? He was like an allergen or something. Yeah. That's, wow.

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But I mean, like kind of a cop out, like kind of like a loophole. Yeah. So at this point in

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Herman Mudgeit's life, he had scammed several people, ruined people financially and potentially

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has had three victims in his very young life. He's only 24 at this point. Oh, looking to start a new,

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Herman began to have dreams of starting his own business. So in 1885, he moved to Chicago and

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changed his name to Dr. Henry Howard Holmes. Shut the fuck up. Everyone at the beginning of this

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podcast was like, Ken, you're a fucking dumbass because you literally said I thought it was

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A.K. A. Tomes, but apparently it's not. No, but it is. I know. And I didn't know. That's okay.

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No, that's okay. Because honestly, I didn't know that he had another name. I didn't either,

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really. Well, nobody did. I don't think. I don't think anybody knows, really.

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That is so funny. Well, you kept it together earlier when I was like, I had two guesses. It was

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Jack the Ripper or AJ's Holmes. I liked it. You and you like didn't even fucking flinch. And I was

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like, okay, I guess it's neither one of them. I felt my cheeks getting really hot because I was like,

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oh my god. Oh no. Why are you so good at like setting things up like that? I just love it.

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Was he the lady? Was he the lady? It's one of my favorite things ever. Oh, that's awesome.

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A.K. Yes, y'all. We are going to be talking about AJ Holmes. So immediately, AJ Holmes found work

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in a pharmacy and began to work for a couple by the name of the Holtons who owned the property

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in the drugstore that the drugstore sat on. Within months of working there, Dr. Holton,

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the owner, however, passed away under natural causes. See me, Lee. Holmes was very dedicated to the

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idea of owning his own business. And with Elizabeth, the owner's wife, unable to tend to the store as

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much as possible after the passing of her husband, Elizabeth eventually would sell the store to Holmes

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and move to California, at least according to Holmes. A.K. Oh. Oh. No paper trail. A.K. Well,

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okay. So I'll just go ahead and give you the deeds now. It was later determined that he did not kill

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or manipulate the Holtons into receiving the drugstore. The couple had actually retired and moved

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to California and Holmes had actually worked to purchase the drugstore. So he didn't actually kill

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them. A.K. Wait. But the husband died, though. A.K. That was the rumor that he had died under

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natural causes. It was a rumor. A.K. So he didn't die at all. A.K. No, he didn't die at all. A.K. So

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what? Okay. So everyone just like, maybe he like isn't guilty of anything and everyone's just like,

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A.K. I'm telling you, this all of the research that I did, it was so convoluted. Everybody had

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a different opinion. Everybody had something else to say. I saw a piece of information and I was like,

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where did that come from? Because I hadn't even heard that. It's just such an ancient story

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that a lot of it is like folklore. A.K. Yeah. Interesting. A.K. Although, so really quick.

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I thought, the last couple days, I thought you were doing Jack the Ripper. Like I really did.

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A.K. Oh really? A.K. But then like when I went to check the doors, it like dawned on me. Like I

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walked right by your computer. I didn't look, nothing was on your screen. I didn't look, but as

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soon as I walked by your computer, I was like, maybe she's doing HH Holmes. And like it just happened

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because I was checking the door. And it's so funny that like it was, I thought about it last

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second and then sure as shit. That's so funny. A.K. So the business actually started taking off

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again under the care of Holmes now. During this time in 1886, Holmes met Myrta Belknap.

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The two quickly got married. Again. He got married again. A.K. Did he elope? A.K. No, not this time.

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However, Holmes at this time is still married to Clara. Let's not forget about poor Clara.

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A.K. Um, actually, Herman Mudgeit is married to Clara. A.K. Oh, not HH Holmes. A.K. You're right.

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A.K. You're right. So Myrta is married to A.J. Holmes. So Holmes wrote her, her being Clara,

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no, wishing that he divorced. He said, I want to be divorced to you now. Holmes then filed for

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divorce, citing that Clara was the one that was the unfaithful one, even though he was trying to

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marry another woman. A.K. Yeah, what the hell? Or had already married another woman. A.K. She's

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unfaithful and I'm married. A.K. And I'm an asshole. A.K. And I stole all her money. A.K. However,

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Holmes never finalized the paperwork for the divorce. So he kind of just let it dwindle out.

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Like he had said, she's unfaithful, I'm divorcing. Well, they have to investigate that.

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A.K. Yeah. A.K. They can't just take his word for it. So they had said that they didn't find any

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evidence of her being unfaithful to him. And they were like, what do you want to do? And he was just

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like, buh. And then he just walked away. A.K. Procrastination. A.K. Exactly. A.K. So,

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Myrta and Holmes welcomed their daughter in 1889 and they named her Lucy Theoditt Holmes.

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A.K. That's actually kind of cute. A.K. Right. Theoditt. Theoditt. Yeah, but I just think it's

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kind of funny. He's like, I'm no longer that person anymore. Let me name my daughter after my

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mother. A.K. Yeah. A.K. It doesn't make any sense. A.K. My mother that I'm claiming is like abusive.

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A.K. Yeah. A.K. At some point in their relationship, Holmes insisted Myrta move with their daughter to

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Wilnet, which is about an hour away from Chicago. A.K. I don't know. I guess he was like, let's

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move out to the country. And then she's like, okay. And he's like, stay here. And then he went back to

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Chicago. A.K. What? A.K. It's like, let me move you away from Chicago. A.K. Yeah. A.K. So that I can

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move back peacefully. A.K. Exactly. I think it was also because he tried to claim that because

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her parents wanted to come live with him too. He was like, oh, let's get a bigger house somewhere

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else. Do you know what I mean? A.K. Do you think that he like, it kind of seems like he is like

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trying to be like this seemingly good guy. So he marries the woman, you know, whatever. And then

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she gets pregnant and he has a kid and then he's probably like snap back. And he's like, oh, shit,

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I don't want this. And so he just like leaves. You think that's like, A.K. Yeah. It's very reminiscent

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of Raymond Fernandez. Like he's using people. A.K. Yeah. A.K. I think is what it is. And as long

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as he has his space and can do whatever he wants, he can continue scamming people. But like once he's

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married to someone, I don't think that he can really do like he probably can't do that as often.

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A.K. Yeah. A.K. So he wants them kind of away. A.K. He's like, okay, you can leave and go ahead

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and fuck off now. Thank you. A.K. Yeah. A.K. Like he hasn't had his Martha yet. Holmes continued

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to work in Chicago at the drugstore and he was doing really well at this point. Most notably

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around this time, Holmes began to sell this magic elixir and he advertised it as the world's most

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potent mineral water. In fact, it was actually just water from the city's water supply.

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But it reminds me of Sweeney Todd where it's like the magical elixir, like whatever,

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with the little boy selling the stuff, Sasha Baron Cohen. Oh, this is reminding me of the

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magical elixir stuff. We're supposed to like make your hair grow and make you attractive and make

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you smell better and you know, doubles as a shaving cream or like whatever. A.K. The chocolate from

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SpongeBob. You put it on your skin and it makes you live forever. A.K. Jesus, it snarred my hand.

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A.K. I heard that. A.K. Sorry, listeners. A.K. Ricocheted. A.K. Anyway. A.K. So nothing special

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about this water whatsoever. It's just another scam, right? It's the snake oil kind of thing.

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But with a very good influx of money now, Holmes started looking towards the vacant lot across

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the street. Holmes decided to buy the lot and had an idea from multiplex sort of a thing,

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which we see all the time now, but essentially it's the first story is all shops and then the

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second story is like apartments. And so he had this idea that he, you know, it was going to be

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this huge thing. So with this idea, Holmes found plenty investors because it was a really cool idea.

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And he started calling this area what would be the World's Columbian Exposition Hotel,

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which is now we call it the World's Fair that happens in Chicago. Holmes was really excited

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about this. He started getting these investors involved because he started calling it the World's

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Columbian Exposition Hotel. Like it was going to be the premier hotel for the World's Fair that

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was going to happen in just a few short years from this from this time. So he began to lure a lot

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of investors in talking about this. So this just to give everybody an idea of how big this is,

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this is the first World's Fair, right? It was a huge event. New York, DC and St. Louis had actually

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lost the fight to have it in those cities. That's how big this was. Like it was a huge, huge event.

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It started becoming this like big idea. And all the residents around in the area started calling

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it Holmes Castle or just the castle. Once Holmes started construction, he would actually sign

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the paperwork for various companies working on the property in Clara's mother's name.

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What? Why? Because so essentially when it would come time to pay the bill, he'd be like,

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Oh, just mail it to her. Oh, that's kind of funny. Don't bug me about it. She's the one that has

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her name on the paperwork. Yeah. Geez, what a dick. He just like doesn't care about it. No,

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he doesn't. He loves scamming. It's like his favorite thing ever. So working for Holmes was

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really unpredictable. He would hire a company to build a wall or two and then fire them. He would

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have another company come in afterwards and manage the project. He would never allow more than one

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team to work on one thing for too long. He would constantly have people moving around or switching

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companies, firing companies, hiring companies. That's the scam because then he doesn't have to

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pay them. Exactly. Partly because he could claim that half of the time the workers were doing

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incompetent work and then refused to pay for the half completed jobs. But in actuality,

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Holmes kind of created this chaos on purpose to confuse people about the true layout of the house.

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Ew. That's really creepy. Notably, Holmes once bought a safe, like a gigantic safe,

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and he had put it on credit, right? Then he put it in a room that was like half built,

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and then he built the room around the safe. Okay. Because it's a gigantic safe. When the

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collectors came to collect the safe, Holmes said they could take it, but under the condition that

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they don't damage any of this property. LOL. He's like, good luck getting that thing the fuck out

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of there without tearing down a wall, right? So he would get rid of this, like he would do this

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often. He would do it with various types of furniture too. Oh my gosh. So of course, the

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collectors realizing that they could possibly do more damage than, more damage than the safe was

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worth, they would just walk away. Jesus. That's like kind of genius. It's so bad. It's kind of

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genius. It's so cool. Not cool, but you know. Like if someone did that in a movie, I'd be like,

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LOL. Yeah. And he was like, damage my property. I'm going to sue you for it. It's more to them,

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to not take it. Exactly. So by the end of its construction in 1891, the castle housed over

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100 rooms. It had acquired a basement making it three stories where Holmes had a medical lab,

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quote unquote, a medical lab. Ew. And also gained secret chambers, hallways that went nowhere,

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trap doors, secret passageways, mazes, and stairs that led nowhere. That is like actually like

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making me nervous just thinking about that. It reminds me of this one episode of like Dexter

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that I've seen that show like a million times. There's like this really creepy maze like with

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this guy and he has like the horn, like the mask with the horns on it and he like chases, like he

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like abducts one of the chases and round it. Yeah. He's got that like chain link, like holster thing.

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Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that guy is terrifying. That's essentially, but on a grander scale.

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Yeah. Because that guy just had plywood. Holmes had an excruciation chamber hooked up to lethal gas

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and he could flip a switch in the next room and watch them because he had peepholes in most of

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the rooms. What? He was fixated. He was fixated. Wait, he would actually kill people like that?

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Yeah. Like a gas chamber? Yeah. Like he's fucking Hitler? Yeah. And it was like a pre-Hitler too.

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It was like a single room gas chamber and he had to switch in the outside that he could just,

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it had peepholes. He had a joining room where he could watch them. That's a different level of

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fucked up. Yeah. This guy's fucked up. What do you mean? Clearly. So when did he like immediately

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just start like moitering like a shitload of people? Like in the process of the castle being

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built? But after it was complete. Like this is all hearsay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it's

364
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,800
a little too unbelievable. So it's like, is it real or is it not? Maybe he was just painted to be

365
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,440
this like monster. Yeah. What if he was just, what if it was like a witch story? Like he was just like,

366
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:20,680
oh that guy's a little creepy. I don't know. Because he has a wonky eye and he's smart. Poor guy.

367
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,720
And he, well he did torture animals. That's a fact. It's so true. We at least have that.

368
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,560
Many of the doors were locked from the outside only or would lock whatever you'd shut it behind you.

369
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,880
Hell no. Yeah. I can just imagine like walking into a room and closing the door and hearing it

370
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:46,200
like click into place. Like. He also had a human sized oven. Oh my fucking god. In a room. No.

371
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,040
He also had a quote unquote trash shoot that led directly into a furnace burning anything that he

372
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:59,560
tossed in there into the basement. What the fuck is wrong with this guy? He had five doors in one

373
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:04,600
room. Most of them leading nowhere. And he had some rooms with no doors or at least at first glance.

374
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:11,240
That is, it's like, it's like cube. Yeah. It's like a movie cube. Oh god I love that movie. Oh my god

375
00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:18,680
cube is so good. That movie scared me when I was little. Astronomical. There were partitions

376
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:25,000
that looked like solid walls and he had doors with hinges that never opened. Ew. This place is like

377
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,600
essentially the ultimate horror based like fun house. Yeah. It's really creepy sounding. He even

378
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,760
had an alarm system installed to alert him when someone was in certain places throughout the castle.

379
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,880
Okay. His room was a particular room and he didn't want anybody to know where it was. Well in his

380
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,960
room didn't have any of that like murder shit in it. Probably not. It's just like the last room.

381
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:51,960
It's probably really nice. Probably had a fucking skeleton in there. Several. So yeah. So that's about

382
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:58,120
the castle. About the gist of the castle. Homes have put out ads during this time the castle

383
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,840
was being built because he needed to hire things like maids or servers. Even retail tenants for

384
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:08,360
the shops. Don't do it. It was rumored that he required each one of his employees to have life

385
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,320
insurance policies. Of course he fucking did but I didn't find any confirmation on that specifically.

386
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:19,080
One of the retail employees Homes had was Ned Connor. He managed the jewelry store connected

387
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:25,240
to the castle. Ned was married and had one child Pearl with his wife Julia Smyth. Ned was no match

388
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:30,200
for a successful doctor, business and property owner and Julia and Homes began having an affair

389
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:35,000
while her husband worked for Homes. Oh my gosh. Ned eventually found out about this affair after

390
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,920
some time and decided to not just quit but leave his wife and child. Yeah. So he moved away. A

391
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,480
distraught Julia was now left as a single mother and in order to help her out Homes suggested that

392
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,720
she moved into the hotel and allowed her to rent an apartment for below asking price.

393
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:55,880
Because he's still fucking money hungry. Yeah clearly. He's like I feel so bad for you but

394
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,160
you can stay at my place. You just you have to pay rent. Yeah seriously. He also like probably

395
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,600
rented the same apartment like multiple fucking people. In November of 1891 Julia would announce

396
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:12,440
that she was pregnant. Shut the fuck up. Homes insisted that Julia have an abortion if he were

397
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:20,600
to continue to take care of both her and her daughter. That's fucked up. So in return he would

398
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:27,160
actually marry her if she agreed to do this. Julia agreed to this however Homes insisted

399
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:34,280
that the procedure be done by him. What? Let's keep in mind he's not a fucking OB. No no no no no no no no no no no no no.

400
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,880
Yeah. By Christmas friends and family of Julia and Pearl came to the doorstep of the hotel

401
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,520
wanting to spend time during the holidays checking in with their friend and her daughter.

402
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,840
When the family knocked on the presumed apartment belonging to Julia and her daughter they were

403
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,600
shocked to find that the apartment that was once hers now had new tenants. Furthermore Julia and

404
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,800
Pearl's belongings were sold off or were currently being used by the new family living there including

405
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,840
Pearl's clothing now being worn by the new tenant's daughter. Hell no absolutely fucking not.

406
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,480
When they approached Homes about where they might find the two Homes have stated that

407
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,440
Julia took Pearl after she met another man which seemed plausible given the fact that she had

408
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:20,040
already had an affair while I mean yeah yeah she was with her husband. Around this time Homes had

409
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,840
actually hired a man by the name of Charles Chappelle for 36 dollars who was a skeleton

410
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:31,160
articulator. A fucking course he was. Charles received a body and agreed to work on it for

411
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:37,560
Homes in order to skin and dehydrate the bones for them to be hung uh on display in his laboratory.

412
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:43,720
Wait wait this was like someone that like did they give permission for their body to be dried

413
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:49,400
out and Charles remembered this specifically because the body he received was a very tall female

414
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:55,800
about six one. No Julia Smith stood at a similar height. No Homes had actually smothered Julia with

415
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,040
the intention of keeping her and preserving her. He had poisoned the 10 year old girl and later

416
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,960
dissected her storing her within the walls of the makeshift medical lab in the basement.

417
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:09,960
That fucking escalated quickly. Yeah. Jesus Christ. After some time of keeping Julia's

418
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:16,360
displayed body in his medical lab Homes eventually sold her skeleton to Hanuman Medical College

419
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:23,320
for a small profit. Do they still have it? I don't know. Again this is just one of the accounts that

420
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,920
I heard. That is wild. No weird. Did they know it was a real skeleton you think when he sold it? I

421
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,360
mean they had to have known. Well they didn't have fake skeletons back then that's what I'm saying.

422
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:40,120
They didn't have fake skeletons. Do you know what was real? He also invented plaster.

423
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:45,480
I was laughing at this TikTok and it was like it was another TikTok. It was a meme. It was like

424
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,760
this lady and she was like how did people know what skeletons looked like like before like

425
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,160
like a certain time that she commented on her own post. It was like,

426
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:03,800
LOL I forgot about dead bodies. I forgot about dead people. That's fucked up though. He's

427
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,680
still I mean he like killed her and then had her on display like in her skeleton. Yeah.

428
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:14,040
Well apparently he didn't hang on to her for very long. Emilyne Segrande started working for homes

429
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:21,720
in May of 1892. She was originally introduced to homes by a man named Benjamin Pitzel who at the

430
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:26,360
time was working for homes as well. Benjamin was very close to homes. They had worked together on

431
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,880
various projects together and Benjamin was almost like a confidant to homes. So when Benjamin started

432
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,680
deepening his alcohol consumption, Holmes knew that his partner needed help. He didn't want him

433
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,880
blabbing other people drunkenly apparently about Holmes' personal business. So Holmes had sent

434
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:48,680
Benjamin to a clinic to get help with his alcoholism. So at the time during all this there was apparently

435
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:54,680
like I told you about that magical elixir earlier. Yeah. There was apparently like a liquid cure to

436
00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:01,880
alcoholism that you would drink it and it would cure you of alcoholism. Oh okay. So I can attest to

437
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:08,120
the fact that that does not work. Sorry. So essentially Holmes' business was twofold. It's

438
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,080
like I'm gonna get my partner sober but also I need you to bring me back some of that cure so

439
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,080
that I can bottle it and make it myself and then make a profit. Right? It's all about the money.

440
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:23,800
Either way Benjamin did bring back a cured alcoholism upon his return but he had also spoken about a

441
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,960
beautiful young secretary that worked in the facility named Emeline Segrande. Listening to the

442
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,400
stories that Benjamin told about Emeline, Holmes decided that he would start writing to the woman.

443
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,040
Hearing that he was a successful doctor who owned his own huge property and his own business,

444
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:46,120
Emeline was swapped off her feet and then when he offered her a job as a stenographer with Holmes,

445
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,600
she accepted it and she moved to Chicago. Why is he like, like there's no other women that are

446
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,480
available to him. The only person he has to go after is the person that his buddy is like into.

447
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,040
I don't know. Okay. So yeah. So I don't know if that's like a,

448
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:08,040
like a challenge or less than. Like does it, does he think that he doesn't necessarily have to

449
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:13,080
commit to the idea of being in a relationship with them? So he's just gonna scam them off the top.

450
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,760
Like, and he's just a really nice guy because I'm already married and like he's a really nice guy,

451
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:23,080
but like he's also kind of an enigma to some people because he's so rich and he's so successful

452
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:29,160
and all the stuff, you know, and it's, I don't know. I don't know. I used to know somebody that

453
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:35,000
would only date like married women, which sounds awful. But a lot of it, I think it was because

454
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:40,040
he couldn't commit and like he didn't have to commit. It was just, he got all the fun stuff,

455
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:46,280
you know? That's fucking so annoying. I hate people like that. Me too. Holmes, Wood, and Alain

456
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,080
Quickly, he took her to the opera regularly. He bought her a brand new bicycle, which was like a

457
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:56,120
huge deal in the late 1800s, especially for women because it meant that you were like an

458
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:02,120
independent person. And wealthy. Yeah, exactly. And of course he did end up proposing to her.

459
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:09,240
He's still married to like his last two wives. Yes. He also claimed that he was actually an

460
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:14,680
English lord and that he had famous parents in London and one day he would move there with her.

461
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:21,640
My fucking god. The last time that Emmeline was seen alive was Christmas 1892 by a neighbor in

462
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,720
the building, Miss Lawrence. She says about that day, quote, the day after Miss Segrande disappeared,

463
00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:33,320
or the day we last saw her, the door of the home's office was kept locked and nobody went in except for

464
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:39,400
Holmes and Patrick Quaylin. About seven o'clock in the evening, Holmes came out of his office and asked

465
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,040
two men that were living in the building if they would help him carry a trunk downstairs, end quote.

466
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,560
A few days later, on January 2nd, Holmes returned to the shop that Charles Chappelle owned with a

467
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:55,560
body and a trunk containing a young woman. Her torso had almost no skin on it, including her face.

468
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:01,320
She was unrecognizable. Oh my gosh. The body was processed and then was also sold to a medical school.

469
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:10,280
This guy, Charles, isn't like, yo, where you getting these fucking bodies? So no, like almost kind of

470
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:21,320
because it wasn't, it wasn't too abnormal for doctors to be studying cadavers. Yeah, that's true.

471
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:27,000
And, you know, he was probably like, I'm gonna sell this skeleton, you know, to a whatever.

472
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:34,120
He had done it before in college, which I didn't put in here because I just

473
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:40,040
forgot, but he would actually, he would sell cadavers to medical schools. He was already doing it in

474
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:46,840
medical school. He was actually going to, he was grave robbing and he was stealing corpses and he

475
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,640
was selling bones. But like the ones that he's given to these Charles guys, like both of them

476
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,080
have had their faces like completely mutilated. So like you can't tell who they are like that's

477
00:43:55,080 --> 00:44:00,440
not fucking ringing any bells. That's like sounding any alarms. Probably not. That's what he did. He

478
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,720
was a skeleton articulator. That's what he did for a living. He's probably just like, don't ask,

479
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:09,480
don't tell, honestly. Probably. And he's probably getting a pretty good pickpick out from it.

480
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,440
When her family got concerned that she and that they had not heard from Emeline, especially after

481
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,840
the move from LA, because she had moved from LA, and then she got caught up in this fairy tale so

482
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:24,680
quickly, Holmes insisted that Emeline had cheated and eloped with another man, moving on yet again

483
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,480
to another state. He claimed that he had been in correspondence with Emeline previously,

484
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:35,800
referring to her as Mrs. Phelps now. Oh my god, what an arrogant fuck. He just made up the story.

485
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,960
And he's like also making up again that she cheated on him just like he did with his ex-wife.

486
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,440
With Clara. After some time and with no evidence, the family had to accept that they likely would

487
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,800
never see Emeline again. So. Oh, that's awful. Holmes was in the business of finding a new secretary

488
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:55,640
now. Many Williams had known Holmes for some years now, but she had been living in Boston.

489
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:05,240
She was the daughter of a large property owner in Fort Worth, Texas, and eventually inherited

490
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:12,360
this family property. Spending more and more time together while working for him, Holmes told many

491
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:21,240
of a man that he knew by the name of Alexander Bond. Alexander Bond. Alexander could take the

492
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:25,640
property that she owned and essentially double its worth, making a butt ton of money for many.

493
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,720
So many signed over her property to Alexander Bond, however there was no Alexander Bond.

494
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:33,160
If it was H.H. Holmes Bond. It was actually signed Holmes.

495
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,160
Holmes had actually signed off on an apartment for many while she was staying in Chicago,

496
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,560
and he was essentially paying for her rent while she was living there.

497
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,760
Okay, that doesn't matter because he's making so much fucking money off of her shit that he just

498
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,560
scammed her out of. Yeah, exactly. I'll just go ahead and pay for her rent. Yeah, exactly.

499
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,800
He's doing her a favor. Throw you a bone.

500
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,480
Sleeping many off of her feet. That was stupid, sorry. Sleeping many off of her feet.

501
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,760
Holmes married many, or at least they had a ceremony. Holmes never actually filed the paperwork,

502
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:06,680
keeping in mind that he's now both married to Clara and murder. Because nation. And Emeline.

503
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:11,720
Well, he had proposed to her, but he had never married her. He killed her before he could do that.

504
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,600
Many was very close to her sister Annie, and when many started getting concerned about some of the

505
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,920
choices that she had made regarding the property, the marriage, and the finances in general,

506
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,720
she began to write to her sister about her worries. Upon hearing this, Holmes asked many

507
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:29,960
to invite her sister to come visit so that Annie could see that there was nothing to worry about.

508
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,600
A twofer. Plus the World's Fair was going on at this point, and he suggested it would be an exciting

509
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:41,160
time for her to come and visit. All expenses paid. Annie came into town and stayed at the hotel.

510
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:48,200
On July 5th, 1893, Holmes asked Annie to come into his office. Once she was in his office,

511
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:54,840
he shoved her through a door into a dark, small, cold room. She quickly realized once he shut

512
00:46:54,840 --> 00:47:02,200
the door behind her that she was actually stepping into a vault. Oh, what? Like a vault? Like a safe?

513
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:11,400
Like a big safe? A vault? Okay. Holmes then pushed the slot of the safe open and shoved a vial of

514
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:17,560
gas into it. No. He waited until Annie became quiet to leave to retrieve her sister, Minnie.

515
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,880
He traveled to the apartment he rented for her and brought her back to the hotel. It was the last

516
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,320
time that Minnie was seen alive. A few days after Minnie was last seen, the apartment she had was

517
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:35,960
cleared out by some men that were hired by Holmes. Yep. So that was like absolutely fucking planned.

518
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,240
He's like, oh yeah, have your sister come up here. That'll be totally fun. We can all hang out

519
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:44,920
together and like it'll be great. So becoming paranoid, Holmes decided to lay low in-

520
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:51,240
What? What? Texas. He's saying it like- You gotta ask mom. Holmes decided to lay low in

521
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:55,800
Fort Worth, Texas on the property. So he's super paranoid at this point. He just killed two women

522
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:01,320
in Chicago and he had inherited that Fort Worth property. So he decided to run there, which is

523
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:07,240
kind of funny because like I feel like today would be like where would this criminal be hiding out?

524
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,040
At the property of the person he just fucking killed. Exactly. That he just somehow managed to

525
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:17,960
like get in his possession like a week ago. Exactly. So literally he just abandoned his castle at

526
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:23,480
that point, which I'm sure it's being taken care of, managed by certain people. Whatever. Yeah.

527
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:31,160
So not before yet marrying another woman named Georgina Yoke. Jesus Christ.

528
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:37,720
Georgiana, I'm sorry. Georgiana Yoke. He married her like after he killed many,

529
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:41,800
but right before he moved to Fort Worth. So they had known each other for some time

530
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,880
and I think he was like maybe it might be one of those asset things where he's like

531
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,160
marry me real quick and then I can just claim that you own my assets and then he left.

532
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:57,400
Oh. Is my opinion. Well, he's a fucking annoying. Yeah, of course. He committed various crimes to

533
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,240
kind of keep his head above water while he was in Fort Worth and he eventually got caught stealing

534
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:08,120
and he was jailed. His cellmate was actually infamous Wild West outlaw Marion Hedgepeth or

535
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:13,560
the Devinair Bandit. I have some other ones. Do you want to hear them? Yeah. The Hampson Bandit,

536
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:19,960
the Montana Bandit and the Derby Kid. The Derby Kid. And that sounds like a bull,

537
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:27,240
like a name of a bull in a rodeo. I had to include this because I know you like alias. This is so

538
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:34,200
good. The Derby Kid. The Derby Kid. Oh my gosh. While in jail, Holmes told Marion that he had

539
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:40,360
planned on faking his own death and collecting a life insurance policy of $10,000. Oh. Exchange

540
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:49,800
rate? I didn't do it. Oh. I didn't do it. $327,485 today. Okay, so $300,000. So he had told Marion

541
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,360
that if he could hook him up with a good lawyer that he could trust, he would have rewarded Marion

542
00:49:54,360 --> 00:50:01,400
with $500. Oh. Marion agreed and got Holmes in touch with Jeppa Howe. Howe also agreed to help

543
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,560
Holmes with the scheme. However, the insurance company refused to provide the life insurance when

544
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:11,400
they got suspicious. Of course. Yeah. Duh. That's how that fucking works. Broke again and getting

545
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,920
frustrated. Oh my god. Holmes wrote to his old partner Benjamin Pytzel, right? Remember Benjamin

546
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:21,640
Pytzel? He's the one that introduced him to the secretary. He offered for Benjamin, his wife,

547
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,880
and their five children to come live with him in Fort Worth. Benjamin had a wife and five children.

548
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:32,920
You don't say. By the way. Well, it made it seem like he was hitting on the secretary lady from

549
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,480
earlier, but he kind of wasn't. It was just that she happened to be there and used. And then Holmes

550
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:43,240
is the one that got obsessed. Benjamin had a wife and five children, by the way. Disclaimer.

551
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:48,760
Once there, Holmes told Benjamin about the scheme and asked both Benjamin and his wife if they too

552
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:53,640
would go along with the scheme. They did agree and Benjamin's wife took out a life insurance policy

553
00:50:53,640 --> 00:51:01,080
on her husband Benjamin using the alias BF Perry instead of Ben's real name. So the life insurance

554
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:06,280
policy was supposed to be for that $10,000. Okay. So after that, they would stage an accident that

555
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,600
was supposed to be held in Philadelphia, I guess just because they wanted it to be distanced enough.

556
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:16,520
Right. It was. Yeah. And then of course they would disfigure a cadaver that would take the place of

557
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,960
Ben. Okay. Thinking that her husband would be on his way to Philly, Holmes couldn't wait any longer

558
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:29,240
for the payout. Holmes held a chloroform rag over Benjamin's face until he passed out. He then burned

559
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:35,880
him alive using benzene and turned him into the life insurance policy company. What happened?

560
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,600
Did his wife know? No. She thought that they were on their way to Philadelphia. Oh my God.

561
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:46,280
And so he killed him and then turned in his body anyways. Yeah. So like it was essentially like

562
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:53,960
this was the man we were just here hours earlier signing a life insurance policy and now he's dead.

563
00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:01,800
And then he's spontaneously combusted. Yeah. Can I collect please? I'm your front his wife's money.

564
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:10,840
God, it's awful. Yes. So that's terrible. Yeah. So he passed out and then he burned him with the

565
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:16,600
benzene. That's so awful. What a dick. You know what I was also thinking? Like how far like

566
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,280
science has come like nowadays, like you could never get away with like bringing a cadaver for

567
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,000
life insurance and be like this person's been dead for like four years and they have embalming fluid

568
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:31,240
in there or whatever. They look great. Yeah. What the hell? To cover up this crime even further,

569
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:38,840
Holmes told Benjamin's wife that he went into hiding after the success of the... Oh my God.

570
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,920
Whatever. The life insurance thing. And she's like cool. And she's just like oh okay. I guess she

571
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,840
doesn't know how long it would take to fucking travel to fucking Pennsylvania to Fort Worth, Texas,

572
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,400
commit a crime and then come all the way back. You know? Yeah. Because he would, I mean it would

573
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,320
have to be local I guess unless the insurance company was in Philadelphia. That makes a little

574
00:52:55,320 --> 00:53:01,000
bit more sense. That's true. Yeah. Paranoid once more, Holmes decided to take off to Canada,

575
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,640
convincing Pysle's wife to bring the children along. He actually convinced the mother to allow

576
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:11,320
three of her five children to travel with him, Alice, Nellie, and Howard. No. Along the route to

577
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:16,600
Canada, Holmes swindled as he went but traveled separately from Pysle stating that it was safe

578
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:21,080
for that they travel separately in case one of them got caught. Because they both are in it.

579
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:25,720
Yeah. Because they're both in the scheme now. And she still thinks what's with her husband?

580
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:30,520
She thinks that he's in hiding. Now all of them are going to go into hiding and it makes sense

581
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:35,240
to split up the children because she doesn't want all of her children to be in custody potentially

582
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:40,040
if she gets caught or vice versa. So she just what like chose her favorite and we're like okay

583
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,480
stay with me and then hopefully we don't get caught. She kept the baby baby because it was a

584
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:49,640
baby baby and then she kept the eldest I guess to help her. Yeah. It was unclear of what kind of

585
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,640
treatment the children had received under the care of Holmes but what we do know is this.

586
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,920
He attached a hose into a hole that he had created in the lid and he gasped the girls

587
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,400
while they were in the trunk. So he attached the hose to the gas. Did you know how old they were?

588
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,760
No, didn't say. Oh my gosh. When the girls were eventually found buried on the property of the

589
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,560
rental house that they stayed in detectives found that Nellie's feet were actually removed.

590
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,520
Likely because she had clubbed feet and they suspected that Holmes removed them so that it

591
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:23,480
was harder to identify her. Yeah. Keep in mind the mother also doesn't know this because she's

592
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:27,320
also traveling separately although they're traveling kind of parallel. Okay. So they're

593
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,640
kind of always near each other but they don't stay in the same places. Yeah she has no idea.

594
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:38,680
He still has one child left with him though right? Yes. The caravan continued back into the states

595
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:44,280
and settled in Enneapolis for a night. Content warning. Their Holmes murdered Howard by poisoning

596
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:49,880
him. He proceeded to process his body to cover up his identity removing the boy's teeth and burning

597
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:56,040
him beyond recognition. Oh my god. That's just like when I heard that was like uh. That's so sad.

598
00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:01,720
Meanwhile in a Texas jail, Marion was waiting for his payout which never never came. Yeah.

599
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:07,320
Infuriated by this, Marion actually ratted out Holmes giving detectives details of the crimes

600
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:12,520
that Holmes intended to commit and where they might be able to find him. Starting with the

601
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:18,360
Fort Worth house, they found signs of fraudulence and began to trace his tracks. Holmes would

602
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:24,440
eventually be found in Boston in 1894. He was arrested for stealing horses. Oh my god. And the

603
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:30,040
thing is is like with the children like you know that he was like oh it's best if we split up and

604
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,480
then he was like I'll take these three children like with full intent that he knew he was going to

605
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,120
kill them. Well and then was also again it was one of those reports that I had heard that the

606
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:43,080
children started asking like where's dad where's dad where's dad where's dad and he was like great

607
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:50,040
these children are witnesses essentially. Yeah. So I think that he was taking out as many as he

608
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:58,040
possibly could and then would eventually probably kill um uh Pitzer's wife and his other kids.

609
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:04,120
If he could yeah. That's awful. What a dick. After he was in custody, detectives searched the castle

610
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:09,160
for more evidence of his crimes. Although they have never fully been confirmed, after the investigation

611
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,320
it was determined that Holmes may be responsible for six more disappearances around the castle.

612
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:19,800
Dr. Russell had an office in the castle and disappeared in 1892. Kitty Kelly was also a

613
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:25,400
sternographer for Holmes and disappeared as well. John Davis left his family a note saying that he

614
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,360
went to the world's fair and stated that he intended to stay at the castle for lodging.

615
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,560
Henry Walker worked for Holmes saying that he trusted Holmes enough to have his life insurance

616
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:40,120
beneficiary change to Holmes while working for him. Oh my gosh. It is unclear if this letter was

617
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:45,800
authentic or if it was somebody posing as Henry. Yeah. Milford Cole received a letter in the mail

618
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:52,440
in 1894 to come to Chicago and work for Holmes before she disappeared. Lucy Burbank's pocket

619
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:57,080
book was found inside the castle, hinting that she wouldn't leave a behind, therefore she never

620
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:02,920
left. Yeah. Although a full number is never known, given witnesses, reports, and timelines, there is

621
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:08,200
estimated to be about 20 to 200 victims that are potentially murdered by Holmes. 20 to 200?

622
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:13,720
Holy shit. Mostly because the world's fair attracted so many people, there's just no way

623
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:19,160
to tell how many travelers came and went through the castle. In October, Herman Webster Mudgeit,

624
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:23,960
aka H.H. Holmes, was convicted of murder of Benjamin Pitzer and subsequently confessed to

625
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:30,680
murdering 27 people. Oh my gosh. Holmes has actually paid $7,500 to give his confession

626
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:36,120
exclusively to a local newspaper. That's like... But like you're not gonna be able to have that

627
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:43,400
in jail. Yeah, exactly. Well, he was sentenced to death by hanging, so yeah. In a twist of irony,

628
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:48,680
Holmes had asked that when he was to be buried, he wanted to be 10 feet down and covered in

629
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:53,880
concrete. As the idea of body snatchers, stealing him and dissecting his body was way too much for

630
00:57:53,880 --> 00:58:01,400
him to handle. Oh, that's so sad. Oh my goodness. Did you just chop his penis off while he was alive

631
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:07,080
and then intentionally desecrated his body? No, that's fucked up. But like seriously,

632
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:11,480
so your biggest fear is someone doing to you what you've done to so many people.

633
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:19,160
Wow. Concept warning. How poetic. In an even bigger twist of irony, on execution day, Holmes'

634
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:24,120
neck did not snap. He instead suffered for close to 15 minutes before he was ultimately

635
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:29,160
exfixiated. Good. Which is also, again, ironic because he fucking gassed people and he smothered

636
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:36,680
people. Yeah. He was buried in an unmarked grave. He was 34. Patrick Quinlan, which was the man that

637
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:42,360
had said that that one witness saw him going in and out of Holmes' office that day, the Emmeline

638
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:48,840
was lost scene. He actually committed suicide years later by a Strychnine poisoning? Strychnine?

639
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:54,200
I think that's how you say it. I think that is, yeah. He left a note next to him simply stating,

640
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:59,720
quote, I couldn't sleep, end quote. Oh, that's really kind of sad. It's really fucked up.

641
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:05,240
In August of 1895, the castle mysteriously caught fire after there had been some discussion of turning

642
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:10,440
in the castle into a museum or a memorial. Oh, hell no. Fuck that. So I think honestly, there was

643
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:16,040
like reports of two people around like 8, 9 p.m. running from behind the scene and then the castle

644
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:21,080
was engulfed. Good. What the fuck? Why would you want to make that like a museum? It completely

645
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,240
decimated the second floor conveniently and the building would eventually be demolished

646
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:33,560
in its entirety in the 1930s. Oh, wow. In 2017, an unmarked grave was unearthed to test the theory

647
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,920
that Holmes had in fact blackmail or hired someone that looked like him to take his place in

648
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:45,960
prosecution and execution. The body was still preserved exponentially well. The body still had

649
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:51,880
clothing covering it and even remnants of a mustache adorned his face. DNA from the body was

650
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:57,880
tested against a known great-grandchild of Holmes. It was positive to be Herman Mudgeit. Don't worry.

651
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:04,920
Oh my god. I was literally going to be like, shut the fuck up. He's still alive? No, he's not still alive.

652
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:12,280
Oh my god, that's scary. But again, one of those rumors, like he made so many people believe so

653
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,040
many things. So many things. So many people did just believe things about him. It's true. Like,

654
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,920
what if that was it? Like, what if he had, what if that wasn't him at the time? Like,

655
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,440
what if that wasn't him at the trial? What if he had hired somebody? That's why he was known to do it.

656
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:31,000
He was reburied and his remains remain in the Holy Cross cemetery located in Delaware County,

657
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:38,040
Philadelphia. So our story is over. Well, there are some people that are out there that do believe

658
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:44,520
that H.H. Holmes is actually another famous killer, perhaps Jack the Ripper. Did you know this? I did

659
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:51,160
not know that. I just got full body goosebumps. But Jack the Ripper was really prevalent in London.

660
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:58,840
But he's an English Lord. He's an English Lord. Oh my god. Okay. He's got like the biggest

661
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:09,880
chill. And then I heard some noise. It was my foot. But he was an English Lord. And he,

662
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,800
that was scary. I literally got like the biggest chill in the world. Like, that was really creepy.

663
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:22,440
Go ahead. He had vowed to take, what's her face, to London to meet his family? That's right. So Jack

664
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:30,840
the Ripper, this was 1888 to 1889. Just one year, the streets of derelict London were terrorized by

665
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:36,440
a man by a man who would slay women in the streets. Jack would strangle his victims so they couldn't

666
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:41,400
shout out and he would mutilate the bodies. The mutilization was done so precisely that

667
01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:45,400
investigators determined that the culprit must have had immense medical knowledge. Yep.

668
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:51,960
In at least three of the victims, some of the organs were removed entirely with surgical skill.

669
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:58,440
It's also known that back then the only way to get to the UK was by boat and it took close to a

670
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:05,480
month. But there is a gap in H.H. Holmes' timeline. Jack stopped killing in 1889, but Holmes started

671
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:13,400
killing in late 1889. So Jack stopped early and he started late in the year. So it would give him

672
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:19,720
enough time to travel back. And this would also be while the castle was being built. So where did

673
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:27,480
he stay during that time? Yikes. Right? Yikes on bikes. So it is plausible. That's so funny because

674
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:32,600
I mentioned fucking both of them in the beginning of this episode. I know. You're so funny. There's

675
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:37,240
even documentation saying that an H. Holmes traveled to the UK during this time as well,

676
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:41,880
although Holmes is a very common last name. Yeah. Many composite drawings of Jack the Ripper

677
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:45,800
look eerily similar to Holmes, although What Man Didn't Have a Mustache Back Then.

678
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:51,640
Lastly, his writings. Jack's handwriting samples have also been studied by linguists who suggest

679
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:59,800
that Jack is actually American based on his spelling and phrasing. So reasons that it wouldn't be

680
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:06,040
Holmes. Jack killed prostitutes. He was known to do that potentially for sexual gain, while Holmes

681
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:12,200
was much more money focused. Yeah. Jack seemed to have tacked opportunistically, like walking down

682
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:17,320
the street when he could. And Holmes was in a house. And methodical. And methodical. Exactly.

683
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:23,080
He thought about those crimes and Holmes was for the long game and Jack was for just the moment.

684
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:27,720
Yeah. So, but many suspects have been named, but no one has officially been identified as

685
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:33,240
Jack the Ripper, but we do know that H.H. Holmes is dead. So. Yeah. And that may actually might be

686
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:40,680
maybe he went over to the UK and spent time there and went on this kind of frenzy, if you will.

687
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,040
And then when he was like, okay, when I go back home, I got to control myself. I can't be doing

688
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:49,400
that shit over. Yeah. It was like a full-on vacation. Isn't that interesting? That's really

689
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:54,040
interesting. I actually, no, it's a wonder why earlier when I was thinking Jack the Ripper,

690
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:57,480
that name popped in my head, because I've probably heard the comparison before that it

691
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:02,840
might be him. But in really good, really good story. Interesting. I actually, I listened to an

692
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:08,360
episode on Jack the Ripper. It was like a four-part episode that Morbid did. And it was really good.

693
01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:13,160
Elena is just amazing and she's super thorough. But it was like not that long ago. And so things

694
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,800
that you were saying right now, I'm like, oh yeah, that doesn't, I do remember that. I do remember

695
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:20,360
that. But I've never heard a story on H.H. Holmes like specifically. So that was really good. I

696
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:24,280
liked that. Thanks. Yeah. It was, it was a lot of, it was interesting to research because like I said,

697
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:32,600
it is such an old case. Yeah. They said it's an a 19th century case with a 20th century spin. Like

698
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:38,200
because it's just so much information's been passed down and manipulated and talked about and

699
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:44,680
what's real, what's not. Yeah. And it is. I mean, you know, even Jack the Ripper was the origin

700
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:50,920
story of a lot of like vampires and Dracula and like things like that. So it's not hard to think

701
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:59,480
that somebody around that same time would have such a, I guess like an unclear history. Yeah.

702
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:03,320
And like, of course, there's like urban myths and urban legends and things like that. And since it

703
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:09,000
is so long ago, like you're right, it's a lot of hearsay. Right. Yeah. So I'm like, I used a little

704
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:14,120
bit of both. I used a little bit of both so you can determine what you think is true and what you

705
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:18,040
think is not. So well, that was really awesome. I'm super glad that I didn't know who that was

706
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:22,680
before going in it because it was really made everything like super like whoa, like the reactions

707
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:29,800
are all genuine. Now everybody knows that Herman Mudgeit is a changed home. Yeah, that's really

708
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:35,880
wild. Wow, what a terrible name. I wonder why he changed it. I know. My name is Herman Mudgeit.

709
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:39,960
Yeah, either way, a piece of shit, both of them, if they're two different people or if they're the

710
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:46,120
same person pieces of shit. But that was a really great case. So definitely enjoyed having you guys

711
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,840
here with us in spirits, just listening, even though we're talking just to each other. We always

712
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:56,200
think that we're in a room full of people telling the story. Thank you guys for continuing to support

713
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:01,240
us. If you want to support us monetarily, especially through the holidays, you can go to our

714
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:06,760
Patreon at DiagnosingAKiller, sorry, patreon.com slash DiagnosingAKiller. You can follow us on

715
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:10,760
Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller. I did want to mention real quick someone commented on our most

716
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:17,080
recent Instagram post and corrected me. I had said Waterloo, Illinois when I was talking about the

717
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,920
John Wayne Gacy case and it's Waterloo, Iowa. I think I mentioned later in the episode that it

718
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,840
was Iowa, but that was my mistake. But we like when people point things out like that to us.

719
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,080
I didn't even notice that I said it and he even said like when it was in the episode. I was like,

720
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:33,960
thanks so much. I appreciate that. But yeah, we want people to reach out to us. We want people to

721
01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:38,280
give their input. It makes me feel good that people are listening and paying attention to what

722
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,720
we're saying and catching things like that. I don't pay attention to you half the time. Yeah,

723
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:46,520
I know sometimes I zone out, but it's okay. But you can follow us on Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller.

724
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:51,400
We also have Twitter at Killer Diagnosis, TikTok, DiagnosingAKiller, and you can email us at

725
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:57,720
diagnosingakiller at gmail.com. We will be back soon with another episode and yeah, anything else you

726
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:23,800
got? No. Okay. Love you. Bye.