Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Koelle. And I'm
Kenna, last time I checked. Guys, let's just jump into it. Yeah, I think we should just
jump into it. Holiday season has been hectic for everyone. We need a little bit of case.
I have two guesses of who I think you're doing, but I'm going to keep them to myself. And
if I'm right, I will be honest and tell you. But if I'm not right, then of course I'll
also be honest and tell you. We are going to be talking about Herman Webster Mudgeit.
I was way off. Way off? I thought it was either Jack the Ripper or H.H. Holmes. So I thought
you were going to do one of those too because you said it was old-timey. It is old-timey,
but this is Herman Webster Mudgeit. He was born May 16th, 1861 in Gilmonton, New Hampshire.
It's a parent's Levi Horton Mudgeit and Theodette, Page Price. Theodette. Theodette. And that was
so interesting. They were each some of the first American-born descendants of English
immigrants in this particular area of New Hampshire, which I thought was really interesting.
He was the middle child of five children that the couple would have. Herman had an older sister,
Ellen, an older brother, Arthur, then Herman, then a younger brother, Henry, and younger sister,
Mary, so big family. Why would they do like two H's and then like all different letters? I feel
like they should have done like a theme or like all different. Henry and Herman. Yeah, Henry and
Herman, right? Yeah, they're too close. And then Ellen, as I was writing it, I was like Ellen and
then Helen. And I was like, wait, no, it's Mary. Ellen and Helen. Ellen and Helen and Arthur.
Ellen, Mary, Arthur. The, yeah, Ellen, Arthur, Herman, Henry, Mary. That's so weird. Why would you
make, okay, I don't know. Maybe they twins? Are they all biblical? They didn't give me the ages,
which I thought was weird because I really wanted to know the age, like at least, because I always
wonder about that, how close they are in age. Horton, the father, was from a family of farmers,
so he actually inherited what? Horton, here's a who. I know, it was Horton. Horton, the father,
was from a family of farmers. He inherited the trade and would also paint houses. He was actually
really successful at it, so the kids were born into a pretty privileged environment,
which is nice to hear, especially for five kids. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you have the means,
right? Right. The Adate, who was a former school teacher, would stay at home with the kids,
raising all five of them in a traditionally Methodist home. Shit, I mean, that's like five
extra full-time jobs, raising five kids. Yeah. And then you can teach all of them. Yeah, of course.
Fine. She was described as a rather cold and distant woman, however. Oh no. She would often
mentally and emotionally abuse the children. I like forgot for a second that we were on at like a
true crime podcast and I was like, this seems like the perfect American family. This is a nice story.
It's really nice. They're just a really nice family. Likewise, Herman's father was actually an
alcoholic. He would hit the children and was considered to be a very strict disciplinarian.
Well, it was nice while it lasted. Surprise, surprise. We're talking about true crime.
It was like four minutes into the podcast. It's already like, where's the shit?
We already know his name, so you know, it's not going to be good for Herman.
In one instance, Horton had actually soaked rags in kerosene and began to hold them over one of the
children's mouths to keep them from crying. No. Isn't that awful? That's terrible. Like all those
fumes, like that's like really dangerous. Oh my God. Stop crying. Don't breathe. Let's just die.
Horrific. Oh my God. I'm not laughing because it's funny. That's just like,
no, you laugh at the ridiculousness. You don't laugh because it's funny. You laugh because it's
so it's out of this world. Yeah. Like who thinks to do that? Yeah. He would also use starvation as
a form of discipline and he would also force the children to isolate as form of punishments,
specifically in the attic. Oh my gosh. Herman loved to escape reality, of course. He was actually
known to read a lot. He read a lot of Edgar Allan Poe and Jules Verne. So he was really
just like kind of otherworldly, like when it came to his escape. Yeah, it almost seems like he's
trying to like throw himself into like the world of these books. And of course this is before
Netflix and all that good stuff. So he's using novels, it makes sense. He also recollected around
this time that he had decided to leave the house as often as possible and would spend hours at a
time in a forested area by the house. Herman would spend so much time in the woods, in fact,
that he actually began to experiment with different ways to capture animals. Okay. And sometimes
torture them, but most often releasing them. Not okay. But again, it's a prelude, right?
And the triad that we've talked about. Right. One of the three. Despite his home life, however,
Herman was a bright kid, as you see. He would do well in school, however, it was mostly the
source of his bullying while he was in school. They made fun of him for having good grades,
which is like the stupidest thing you can make fun of somebody for. You're smart.
Like in 21 Jump Street, when he's like, yeah, rule number one of high school, don't try at
anything. Rule number two, make fun of people who do try. And then he goes and he's like,
oh, he's studying. Look at the nerd. Look at the nerd. Yes. Exactly. It's the worst thing you can
believe someone over is being smart. Like really? And doing well. Yeah, like good for you. Like,
you're a success. You're going to be successful later in life. But I'm not.
He was a little weird, though. And he also had a wonky eye. So maybe that's another reason why
they made fun of him. No, that's so awful. Poor thing. Like poor kid, you know, as a kid.
Meek child. One time when Herman was walking through the small town, a group of schoolmates
have spotted him and proceeded to push Herman inside of a local doctor's office. So during the
day this doctor's office was unlocked, it was probably lunchtime, something like that. The
doctor's office was unlocked. Also, this is a very small town and it's in the late 1800s.
Yeah, whatever. So Herman had actually expressed to a lot of schoolmates that he hated this doctor's
office. He hated walking by it because it actually had like a real life skeleton hanging,
like as part of, you know, anatomy and medical shit, the way that it was then.
But it was a real skeleton. And he had always freaked out every time he walked by it. He had
always said that it made him really uncomfortable. So these school kids pushed him into the doctor's
office and forced him to lay on the ground with the skeleton on top of him. Oh, hell no. And they
placed the skeleton's hands over his face. Oh, hell no. Oh, hell no. I would freak out. Isn't
that gross? I would freak the fuck out. I don't blame him. And that's fucked up because they're
literally getting to like the root of his fear. Like that is so fucked up. He's terrified of it.
But he did say the longer that he laid there, the more comfortable that he got. And he later
actually credited this instance as one of the reasons he overcame his fear of death. No. And
furthering his interest in studying anatomy and becoming a doctor. And much else. A doctor,
I'm assuming. He later said about the incident, quote, it was a wicked and dangerous thing to do
of a child of tender years and health. But it proved a heroic method of treatment designed
ultimately to cure me of my fears. And to inculcate in me first a strong feeling of curiosity
and later a desire to learn which resulted years afterwards in my adopting medicine as a profession.
Okay, so I don't know this case, but it kind of seems like he's like, okay, yeah, like this is
the reason why I became a doctor. But it also seems like he's going to use that as like an excuse
for like what he does later. Like, oh, yeah, well, they bullied me and like maybe not afraid of death.
So like I just kill people. So I just I kind of see that this is where that's going. I might be
wrong. Well, I mean, we're here for a reason. Heightening his curiosity, Herman began to experiment
even further with animals and now began killing them and dissecting them. And he started calling
them his surgeries that he was performing. And how old was he? At this time, I think he's about 10.
Really? 910. Yeah. Yikes. So just to give everybody an idea, medicine around this time was
actually booming. The first clinical trials to treat malaria were performed in 1860s. The company
Bear would purchase aspirin after its invention in the late 1890s. And nitrous oxide was introduced
with into regular procedures by the 1870s. Oh, so this is like everything is booming as far as the
medical community. Yeah. We just yeah. Sorry. With all these medical advances around Herman,
he was really dedicating himself to the idea that he would become a doctor someday. He would get his
hands on as many medical journals as possible, researching as much as he could about various
surgeries or treatments. He would essentially perfect his craft on his animal patients and
became very steady with a blade when cutting and dissecting as well as skinning the animals.
Okay, like that's cool and all, but like do it legally. Don't just like
experiment. I mean, I guess back then it probably wasn't illegal to kill animals. Yeah,
to kill a rabbit, not on a farm. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. But still, that's kind of fucked up.
Like do it humanely. Like go to school for it. I mean, when you can and then use cadavers,
like people that donate their bodies on purpose for these things, you know. But don't you know
that he laid with a skeleton and that's why he wants to be a doctor? Oh, he just lays with
a dead. It sounds like he's not my casey. Just crawl up into this coffin real quick.
When Herman was just 11 years old, he witnessed a friend fall to his death after the boys were
playing in an abandoned building. Although it was never confirmed, speculation grew in the town
that Herman was the one to push the boy to his death. Herman denied this ever happened, but did
say that the event weighed on him mentally and carried it and he carried it for the rest of his
life. It's kind of hard because in general, like, it's really difficult to determine like whether
or not someone was pushed or someone jumped because it's like the same trajectory and the fact that
this was like so long ago, like, who knows, he is the only one that knows the real truth as to
what happened, like if it was an accident or if it was on purpose or if he did it himself. Yeah,
you know, it's really interesting. Doing this whole case, there was a lot of like,
cheese may that it was like, is this true? Is this not true? Not confirmed? Could be confirmed?
It was a lot of that. Besides all of this, Herman being as smart as he was, he graduated high school
by age 16 from Philip Exeter Academy, which is ancient by the way, and it's still around and
everybody should Google it because it's weird. He soon after began teaching in various areas around
his small town and around this time, Herman had actually gained a lot of distance from his family.
He began taking care of himself, he began to dress very nicely, groomed himself well,
and just overall, I'm taking more pride in his looks. So it's no surprise that he eventually
met a woman by the name of Clara Lovering, and shortly after their meeting, the two eloped without
anyone's knowledge in the summer of 1878, with a couple were just 17 years old. Oh my gosh,
they eloped? They eloped at 17. Wow. And it just reminds me. I'd be pissed. I would too.
We like thanks for the fucking invite. Well, you know, he hates his family, so
or at least his parents. But yeah, just another one of those instances where you see somebody
marrying somebody very quickly. Yeah, very impulsive. Very impulsive. I'm sure she knows
all about his animal abuse and torture as well. I'm sure he told her everything. Yeah. And about
the kerosene rags. Yeah, of course. Soon after they got married, they welcomed a baby boy just
seven months later, do the math. Oh, that's really interesting. So she got pregnant like right away
and they were like, let's go get married. So that no one gets mad. Clara's father was actually a
well known figure around their town of Alton. So that may explain why they got married in a rush.
Yeah, I couldn't see that. So yes, that was their son, Robert Lovering Mudgeit.
That was her son. Ring a bell? It does not. Okay, good. It shouldn't. He didn't do anything.
He didn't do anything. He's fine. I think he became a lawyer. He's actually a good guy. He's a good
guy. Clara never really spoke ill about the marriage around this time, but she did complain to a few
friends that Herman had a tendency to be very pushy about sex. Interesting. So with this new
family, Herman decided it was time to go back to school and earn a degree. After all, his passion
was for medicine. Clara had agreed to support Herman and their son while Herman went through his
schooling. And he went to Burlington, Vermont, to the University of Vermont, which was a few
towns over. It's about a two and a half hour drive now. So four hours probably if you're gonna be
horsing it or hiking it. Which is funny. That's like a few towns over and it's like another state.
That's so cool that he can like just travel like for the day like to another state. We can't do that
in Texas, everyone. It wasn't for the day. For school though. Oh, he stayed there. Yeah, exactly.
Essentially, you could travel for the day and come back. It's really just like the closest beach to
where we live is still two and a half hours away. It's not even two hours. We couldn't get
anything in two hours. True. Yeah, so he moved there to be there for school. So he would visit
the family as often as he could. He would bring money and stuff like that or rather take money.
Clara actually to help Megan's meet became a she was like an alterator. She did alterations
in sewing. He would kind of come into town and like help out with the baby for a little bit.
But mostly ask Clara for money because she also had a well off dad. And then he would just go back
to school. Yeah. And she was just like cool with that. I don't know if she was cool with it,
but it happened. I mean, she had a new baby, right? I mean, she was like, oh, he's going to school to
be this doctor. Like he's probably, you know, it's a little bit for me to sacrifice now, but later.
Yeah, he's going to have a really great career. That's true. After a year at the University of
Vermont in 1882, he transferred to the University of Michigan, which at the time was the only
university to have its own campus hospital, which I thought was cool. That's interesting.
So Clara ended up moving her and the baby to Ann Arbor to be closer to Herman. However,
within the year, the couple would split when Herman started showing signs of being physically
violent towards her. Oh no. Yeah. There's the poop. There's the poop. So she would move back to New
Hampshire and while Herman made a small attempt in writing and supporting his family back home,
eventually the correspondence would dwindle into nothingness. Okay. So while at university,
Herman began to work on cadavers, which fed into his obsession with human anatomy and death.
There it is. During his stay at the university, Herman found himself broke and without much money.
After all, medical school is expensive and his wife wasn't there anymore. Exactly. He was in
bumming off his wife and his father-in-law. During this time, a smallpox outbreak had kind of taken
over the area he was living in. So he came up with a scheme to make money off of this. No. He went from
door to door selling smallpox vaccines in advance to desperate people for cheap. No. Oh my God,
what was in them? He didn't just like saline. No. He said, we're coming out with this vaccine. If you
pay me now, I'll bring it to you when it comes out. Oh, that's so sad. And so he just took the money
and they just waited and he never came back. And he never came. That's sad. It's a dick. Well, I mean,
can you imagine like terrified people just stuck in their house? It's like COVID, right? Like,
just stuck in your house because you can't go anywhere because everybody has fucking smallpox
and then you're like guaranteed that you're going to be protected and then somebody took off with
your money. And then you're not. Yeah. So he was never caught doing this. And in fact, it gave him
the courage to continue to keep scamming people. So the next juice he came up with was a plan to use
medical cadavers. Once they serve their purpose on the campus, of course, he would mutilate the
corpses beyond recognition. He would open several life insurance policies with several different
insurance companies. And then he would provide them with the bodies saying that it was those people.
And then collect the money. Like he would put it in his like he would be the recipient of the
life insurance. Did he just like walk into the insurance place with like the body in his arms?
Like here is the proof. See, I don't know. Because that's the way it was kind of like here's your
proof. Fend to me. Fend to me, you know? But I don't know if there's like, if he could make like,
I don't think he can make death certificates at the school. I don't know. Because like, I don't know.
Maybe they had the death certificate at the school because they needed it for like
the research stuff. Yeah, I don't know. It's so weird. Isn't that weird? It's like,
scary. So he would claim that they were people that like weren't those people though,
like the bodies. Like a stack of bodies and like essentially the back of his horse and he just
like took it to other places. It was like here's like takes them off one by one. Like this has been
like this has been bring out your dead. It was essentially like that. That's what it sounded
like to me. I don't know how many times he actually did that. He made it seem like he was doing it
like every other day. I think he only did it like three times. Just like an abundance of bodies.
Like he's just like well off. I think that yeah, because I mean they were getting he was getting
like a thousand dollars, you know, or $2,000 per body. I mean, quite a bit of money. It's like,
yeah, this is this guy. It's like actually I'm that guy. So he did this a few times in the two
years that he was finishing up college. He almost didn't graduate however at some point in 1884.
Herman was accused of promising to marry a widow that claimed that he had asked her to marry him.
And he was using this woman for her husband's life insurance policy that she was awarded.
Yeah, I don't know why this would prevent him from graduating like I don't know if it looked
bad on the school. Well, he was already married too. He's already married to Clara. That's true.
So I don't know if it was like it looked bad on the school or they didn't want like the
reputation of somebody that's being fraudulent or something like that. Yeah, either way,
he did graduate medical school in 1884. So by this point, Herman had decided that he enjoyed
counting people. Clare. So he moved to New York and became a principal, which is like the weirdest
thing that you could become after graduating medical school. Yeah, what the hell? No, no. He became a
fucking principal. While he was a principal at the school in New York, a young boy went missing.
Rumors began to spread that Herman Mudgeit was the last to be seen with the boy, although when
interviewed he said that it was true that the boy was walking with him that day, but that the boy
had expressed that he had intentions of running away back to his home state of Massachusetts.
Who does that sound like? Who was it? Gazing. Gazing. He just ran away. He left me a message on the
answering machine that he was going to run away, but I deleted it. But I deleted it. That crucial
piece of evidence and this fucking piece of evidence that could absolve me. Really? I love that one.
Once it was clear that Herman was not a person of interest, Herman himself decided to move almost
immediately. He moved to Philadelphia and he began working in an asylum, although he didn't stay for
very long, which makes me wonder if he thought that it might be an easy group of targets to scam.
But they're literally called wards of the state for a reason. It's because they don't have any
control over their assets. So I bet he went there trying to scam them and then he's like,
wait, you don't have a say. Yeah. Well, I was thinking more. It's like he just thought that they
were easy prey. He could convince them because they're out of their mind to give them sign over
assets or something. But that didn't work. That's an interesting thought. So after he quit there,
he started working as a pharmacist in a local pharmacy. While working at this drug store,
a young boy was actually poisoned to death by ingesting something that Herman had given the
boy. Again, Herman denied doing anything wrong, claiming that the boy must have had an adverse
reaction to the to the medication that he couldn't predict. I'm sorry, you're a fucking pharmacist
now, apparently. So how would you know? He was like an allergen or something. Yeah. That's, wow.
But I mean, like kind of a cop out, like kind of like a loophole. Yeah. So at this point in
Herman Mudgeit's life, he had scammed several people, ruined people financially and potentially
has had three victims in his very young life. He's only 24 at this point. Oh, looking to start a new,
Herman began to have dreams of starting his own business. So in 1885, he moved to Chicago and
changed his name to Dr. Henry Howard Holmes. Shut the fuck up. Everyone at the beginning of this
podcast was like, Ken, you're a fucking dumbass because you literally said I thought it was
A.K. A. Tomes, but apparently it's not. No, but it is. I know. And I didn't know. That's okay.
No, that's okay. Because honestly, I didn't know that he had another name. I didn't either,
really. Well, nobody did. I don't think. I don't think anybody knows, really.
That is so funny. Well, you kept it together earlier when I was like, I had two guesses. It was
Jack the Ripper or AJ's Holmes. I liked it. You and you like didn't even fucking flinch. And I was
like, okay, I guess it's neither one of them. I felt my cheeks getting really hot because I was like,
oh my god. Oh no. Why are you so good at like setting things up like that? I just love it.
Was he the lady? Was he the lady? It's one of my favorite things ever. Oh, that's awesome.
A.K. Yes, y'all. We are going to be talking about AJ Holmes. So immediately, AJ Holmes found work
in a pharmacy and began to work for a couple by the name of the Holtons who owned the property
in the drugstore that the drugstore sat on. Within months of working there, Dr. Holton,
the owner, however, passed away under natural causes. See me, Lee. Holmes was very dedicated to the
idea of owning his own business. And with Elizabeth, the owner's wife, unable to tend to the store as
much as possible after the passing of her husband, Elizabeth eventually would sell the store to Holmes
and move to California, at least according to Holmes. A.K. Oh. Oh. No paper trail. A.K. Well,
okay. So I'll just go ahead and give you the deeds now. It was later determined that he did not kill
or manipulate the Holtons into receiving the drugstore. The couple had actually retired and moved
to California and Holmes had actually worked to purchase the drugstore. So he didn't actually kill
them. A.K. Wait. But the husband died, though. A.K. That was the rumor that he had died under
natural causes. It was a rumor. A.K. So he didn't die at all. A.K. No, he didn't die at all. A.K. So
what? Okay. So everyone just like, maybe he like isn't guilty of anything and everyone's just like,
A.K. I'm telling you, this all of the research that I did, it was so convoluted. Everybody had
a different opinion. Everybody had something else to say. I saw a piece of information and I was like,
where did that come from? Because I hadn't even heard that. It's just such an ancient story
that a lot of it is like folklore. A.K. Yeah. Interesting. A.K. Although, so really quick.
I thought, the last couple days, I thought you were doing Jack the Ripper. Like I really did.
A.K. Oh really? A.K. But then like when I went to check the doors, it like dawned on me. Like I
walked right by your computer. I didn't look, nothing was on your screen. I didn't look, but as
soon as I walked by your computer, I was like, maybe she's doing HH Holmes. And like it just happened
because I was checking the door. And it's so funny that like it was, I thought about it last
second and then sure as shit. That's so funny. A.K. So the business actually started taking off
again under the care of Holmes now. During this time in 1886, Holmes met Myrta Belknap.
The two quickly got married. Again. He got married again. A.K. Did he elope? A.K. No, not this time.
However, Holmes at this time is still married to Clara. Let's not forget about poor Clara.
A.K. Um, actually, Herman Mudgeit is married to Clara. A.K. Oh, not HH Holmes. A.K. You're right.
A.K. You're right. So Myrta is married to A.J. Holmes. So Holmes wrote her, her being Clara,
no, wishing that he divorced. He said, I want to be divorced to you now. Holmes then filed for
divorce, citing that Clara was the one that was the unfaithful one, even though he was trying to
marry another woman. A.K. Yeah, what the hell? Or had already married another woman. A.K. She's
unfaithful and I'm married. A.K. And I'm an asshole. A.K. And I stole all her money. A.K. However,
Holmes never finalized the paperwork for the divorce. So he kind of just let it dwindle out.
Like he had said, she's unfaithful, I'm divorcing. Well, they have to investigate that.
A.K. Yeah. A.K. They can't just take his word for it. So they had said that they didn't find any
evidence of her being unfaithful to him. And they were like, what do you want to do? And he was just
like, buh. And then he just walked away. A.K. Procrastination. A.K. Exactly. A.K. So,
Myrta and Holmes welcomed their daughter in 1889 and they named her Lucy Theoditt Holmes.
A.K. That's actually kind of cute. A.K. Right. Theoditt. Theoditt. Yeah, but I just think it's
kind of funny. He's like, I'm no longer that person anymore. Let me name my daughter after my
mother. A.K. Yeah. A.K. It doesn't make any sense. A.K. My mother that I'm claiming is like abusive.
A.K. Yeah. A.K. At some point in their relationship, Holmes insisted Myrta move with their daughter to
Wilnet, which is about an hour away from Chicago. A.K. I don't know. I guess he was like, let's
move out to the country. And then she's like, okay. And he's like, stay here. And then he went back to
Chicago. A.K. What? A.K. It's like, let me move you away from Chicago. A.K. Yeah. A.K. So that I can
move back peacefully. A.K. Exactly. I think it was also because he tried to claim that because
her parents wanted to come live with him too. He was like, oh, let's get a bigger house somewhere
else. Do you know what I mean? A.K. Do you think that he like, it kind of seems like he is like
trying to be like this seemingly good guy. So he marries the woman, you know, whatever. And then
she gets pregnant and he has a kid and then he's probably like snap back. And he's like, oh, shit,
I don't want this. And so he just like leaves. You think that's like, A.K. Yeah. It's very reminiscent
of Raymond Fernandez. Like he's using people. A.K. Yeah. A.K. I think is what it is. And as long
as he has his space and can do whatever he wants, he can continue scamming people. But like once he's
married to someone, I don't think that he can really do like he probably can't do that as often.
A.K. Yeah. A.K. So he wants them kind of away. A.K. He's like, okay, you can leave and go ahead
and fuck off now. Thank you. A.K. Yeah. A.K. Like he hasn't had his Martha yet. Holmes continued
to work in Chicago at the drugstore and he was doing really well at this point. Most notably
around this time, Holmes began to sell this magic elixir and he advertised it as the world's most
potent mineral water. In fact, it was actually just water from the city's water supply.
But it reminds me of Sweeney Todd where it's like the magical elixir, like whatever,
with the little boy selling the stuff, Sasha Baron Cohen. Oh, this is reminding me of the
magical elixir stuff. We're supposed to like make your hair grow and make you attractive and make
you smell better and you know, doubles as a shaving cream or like whatever. A.K. The chocolate from
SpongeBob. You put it on your skin and it makes you live forever. A.K. Jesus, it snarred my hand.
A.K. I heard that. A.K. Sorry, listeners. A.K. Ricocheted. A.K. Anyway. A.K. So nothing special
about this water whatsoever. It's just another scam, right? It's the snake oil kind of thing.
But with a very good influx of money now, Holmes started looking towards the vacant lot across
the street. Holmes decided to buy the lot and had an idea from multiplex sort of a thing,
which we see all the time now, but essentially it's the first story is all shops and then the
second story is like apartments. And so he had this idea that he, you know, it was going to be
this huge thing. So with this idea, Holmes found plenty investors because it was a really cool idea.
And he started calling this area what would be the World's Columbian Exposition Hotel,
which is now we call it the World's Fair that happens in Chicago. Holmes was really excited
about this. He started getting these investors involved because he started calling it the World's
Columbian Exposition Hotel. Like it was going to be the premier hotel for the World's Fair that
was going to happen in just a few short years from this from this time. So he began to lure a lot
of investors in talking about this. So this just to give everybody an idea of how big this is,
this is the first World's Fair, right? It was a huge event. New York, DC and St. Louis had actually
lost the fight to have it in those cities. That's how big this was. Like it was a huge, huge event.
It started becoming this like big idea. And all the residents around in the area started calling
it Holmes Castle or just the castle. Once Holmes started construction, he would actually sign
the paperwork for various companies working on the property in Clara's mother's name.
What? Why? Because so essentially when it would come time to pay the bill, he'd be like,
Oh, just mail it to her. Oh, that's kind of funny. Don't bug me about it. She's the one that has
her name on the paperwork. Yeah. Geez, what a dick. He just like doesn't care about it. No,
he doesn't. He loves scamming. It's like his favorite thing ever. So working for Holmes was
really unpredictable. He would hire a company to build a wall or two and then fire them. He would
have another company come in afterwards and manage the project. He would never allow more than one
team to work on one thing for too long. He would constantly have people moving around or switching
companies, firing companies, hiring companies. That's the scam because then he doesn't have to
pay them. Exactly. Partly because he could claim that half of the time the workers were doing
incompetent work and then refused to pay for the half completed jobs. But in actuality,
Holmes kind of created this chaos on purpose to confuse people about the true layout of the house.
Ew. That's really creepy. Notably, Holmes once bought a safe, like a gigantic safe,
and he had put it on credit, right? Then he put it in a room that was like half built,
and then he built the room around the safe. Okay. Because it's a gigantic safe. When the
collectors came to collect the safe, Holmes said they could take it, but under the condition that
they don't damage any of this property. LOL. He's like, good luck getting that thing the fuck out
of there without tearing down a wall, right? So he would get rid of this, like he would do this
often. He would do it with various types of furniture too. Oh my gosh. So of course, the
collectors realizing that they could possibly do more damage than, more damage than the safe was
worth, they would just walk away. Jesus. That's like kind of genius. It's so bad. It's kind of
genius. It's so cool. Not cool, but you know. Like if someone did that in a movie, I'd be like,
LOL. Yeah. And he was like, damage my property. I'm going to sue you for it. It's more to them,
to not take it. Exactly. So by the end of its construction in 1891, the castle housed over
100 rooms. It had acquired a basement making it three stories where Holmes had a medical lab,
quote unquote, a medical lab. Ew. And also gained secret chambers, hallways that went nowhere,
trap doors, secret passageways, mazes, and stairs that led nowhere. That is like actually like
making me nervous just thinking about that. It reminds me of this one episode of like Dexter
that I've seen that show like a million times. There's like this really creepy maze like with
this guy and he has like the horn, like the mask with the horns on it and he like chases, like he
like abducts one of the chases and round it. Yeah. He's got that like chain link, like holster thing.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that guy is terrifying. That's essentially, but on a grander scale.
Yeah. Because that guy just had plywood. Holmes had an excruciation chamber hooked up to lethal gas
and he could flip a switch in the next room and watch them because he had peepholes in most of
the rooms. What? He was fixated. He was fixated. Wait, he would actually kill people like that?
Yeah. Like a gas chamber? Yeah. Like he's fucking Hitler? Yeah. And it was like a pre-Hitler too.
It was like a single room gas chamber and he had to switch in the outside that he could just,
it had peepholes. He had a joining room where he could watch them. That's a different level of
fucked up. Yeah. This guy's fucked up. What do you mean? Clearly. So when did he like immediately
just start like moitering like a shitload of people? Like in the process of the castle being
built? But after it was complete. Like this is all hearsay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it's
a little too unbelievable. So it's like, is it real or is it not? Maybe he was just painted to be
this like monster. Yeah. What if he was just, what if it was like a witch story? Like he was just like,
oh that guy's a little creepy. I don't know. Because he has a wonky eye and he's smart. Poor guy.
And he, well he did torture animals. That's a fact. It's so true. We at least have that.
Many of the doors were locked from the outside only or would lock whatever you'd shut it behind you.
Hell no. Yeah. I can just imagine like walking into a room and closing the door and hearing it
like click into place. Like. He also had a human sized oven. Oh my fucking god. In a room. No.
He also had a quote unquote trash shoot that led directly into a furnace burning anything that he
tossed in there into the basement. What the fuck is wrong with this guy? He had five doors in one
room. Most of them leading nowhere. And he had some rooms with no doors or at least at first glance.
That is, it's like, it's like cube. Yeah. It's like a movie cube. Oh god I love that movie. Oh my god
cube is so good. That movie scared me when I was little. Astronomical. There were partitions
that looked like solid walls and he had doors with hinges that never opened. Ew. This place is like
essentially the ultimate horror based like fun house. Yeah. It's really creepy sounding. He even
had an alarm system installed to alert him when someone was in certain places throughout the castle.
Okay. His room was a particular room and he didn't want anybody to know where it was. Well in his
room didn't have any of that like murder shit in it. Probably not. It's just like the last room.
It's probably really nice. Probably had a fucking skeleton in there. Several. So yeah. So that's about
the castle. About the gist of the castle. Homes have put out ads during this time the castle
was being built because he needed to hire things like maids or servers. Even retail tenants for
the shops. Don't do it. It was rumored that he required each one of his employees to have life
insurance policies. Of course he fucking did but I didn't find any confirmation on that specifically.
One of the retail employees Homes had was Ned Connor. He managed the jewelry store connected
to the castle. Ned was married and had one child Pearl with his wife Julia Smyth. Ned was no match
for a successful doctor, business and property owner and Julia and Homes began having an affair
while her husband worked for Homes. Oh my gosh. Ned eventually found out about this affair after
some time and decided to not just quit but leave his wife and child. Yeah. So he moved away. A
distraught Julia was now left as a single mother and in order to help her out Homes suggested that
she moved into the hotel and allowed her to rent an apartment for below asking price.
Because he's still fucking money hungry. Yeah clearly. He's like I feel so bad for you but
you can stay at my place. You just you have to pay rent. Yeah seriously. He also like probably
rented the same apartment like multiple fucking people. In November of 1891 Julia would announce
that she was pregnant. Shut the fuck up. Homes insisted that Julia have an abortion if he were
to continue to take care of both her and her daughter. That's fucked up. So in return he would
actually marry her if she agreed to do this. Julia agreed to this however Homes insisted
that the procedure be done by him. What? Let's keep in mind he's not a fucking OB. No no no no no no no no no no no no no.
Yeah. By Christmas friends and family of Julia and Pearl came to the doorstep of the hotel
wanting to spend time during the holidays checking in with their friend and her daughter.
When the family knocked on the presumed apartment belonging to Julia and her daughter they were
shocked to find that the apartment that was once hers now had new tenants. Furthermore Julia and
Pearl's belongings were sold off or were currently being used by the new family living there including
Pearl's clothing now being worn by the new tenant's daughter. Hell no absolutely fucking not.
When they approached Homes about where they might find the two Homes have stated that
Julia took Pearl after she met another man which seemed plausible given the fact that she had
already had an affair while I mean yeah yeah she was with her husband. Around this time Homes had
actually hired a man by the name of Charles Chappelle for 36 dollars who was a skeleton
articulator. A fucking course he was. Charles received a body and agreed to work on it for
Homes in order to skin and dehydrate the bones for them to be hung uh on display in his laboratory.
Wait wait this was like someone that like did they give permission for their body to be dried
out and Charles remembered this specifically because the body he received was a very tall female
about six one. No Julia Smith stood at a similar height. No Homes had actually smothered Julia with
the intention of keeping her and preserving her. He had poisoned the 10 year old girl and later
dissected her storing her within the walls of the makeshift medical lab in the basement.
That fucking escalated quickly. Yeah. Jesus Christ. After some time of keeping Julia's
displayed body in his medical lab Homes eventually sold her skeleton to Hanuman Medical College
for a small profit. Do they still have it? I don't know. Again this is just one of the accounts that
I heard. That is wild. No weird. Did they know it was a real skeleton you think when he sold it? I
mean they had to have known. Well they didn't have fake skeletons back then that's what I'm saying.
They didn't have fake skeletons. Do you know what was real? He also invented plaster.
I was laughing at this TikTok and it was like it was another TikTok. It was a meme. It was like
this lady and she was like how did people know what skeletons looked like like before like
like a certain time that she commented on her own post. It was like,
LOL I forgot about dead bodies. I forgot about dead people. That's fucked up though. He's
still I mean he like killed her and then had her on display like in her skeleton. Yeah.
Well apparently he didn't hang on to her for very long. Emilyne Segrande started working for homes
in May of 1892. She was originally introduced to homes by a man named Benjamin Pitzel who at the
time was working for homes as well. Benjamin was very close to homes. They had worked together on
various projects together and Benjamin was almost like a confidant to homes. So when Benjamin started
deepening his alcohol consumption, Holmes knew that his partner needed help. He didn't want him
blabbing other people drunkenly apparently about Holmes' personal business. So Holmes had sent
Benjamin to a clinic to get help with his alcoholism. So at the time during all this there was apparently
like I told you about that magical elixir earlier. Yeah. There was apparently like a liquid cure to
alcoholism that you would drink it and it would cure you of alcoholism. Oh okay. So I can attest to
the fact that that does not work. Sorry. So essentially Holmes' business was twofold. It's
like I'm gonna get my partner sober but also I need you to bring me back some of that cure so
that I can bottle it and make it myself and then make a profit. Right? It's all about the money.
Either way Benjamin did bring back a cured alcoholism upon his return but he had also spoken about a
beautiful young secretary that worked in the facility named Emeline Segrande. Listening to the
stories that Benjamin told about Emeline, Holmes decided that he would start writing to the woman.
Hearing that he was a successful doctor who owned his own huge property and his own business,
Emeline was swapped off her feet and then when he offered her a job as a stenographer with Holmes,
she accepted it and she moved to Chicago. Why is he like, like there's no other women that are
available to him. The only person he has to go after is the person that his buddy is like into.
I don't know. Okay. So yeah. So I don't know if that's like a,
like a challenge or less than. Like does it, does he think that he doesn't necessarily have to
commit to the idea of being in a relationship with them? So he's just gonna scam them off the top.
Like, and he's just a really nice guy because I'm already married and like he's a really nice guy,
but like he's also kind of an enigma to some people because he's so rich and he's so successful
and all the stuff, you know, and it's, I don't know. I don't know. I used to know somebody that
would only date like married women, which sounds awful. But a lot of it, I think it was because
he couldn't commit and like he didn't have to commit. It was just, he got all the fun stuff,
you know? That's fucking so annoying. I hate people like that. Me too. Holmes, Wood, and Alain
Quickly, he took her to the opera regularly. He bought her a brand new bicycle, which was like a
huge deal in the late 1800s, especially for women because it meant that you were like an
independent person. And wealthy. Yeah, exactly. And of course he did end up proposing to her.
He's still married to like his last two wives. Yes. He also claimed that he was actually an
English lord and that he had famous parents in London and one day he would move there with her.
My fucking god. The last time that Emmeline was seen alive was Christmas 1892 by a neighbor in
the building, Miss Lawrence. She says about that day, quote, the day after Miss Segrande disappeared,
or the day we last saw her, the door of the home's office was kept locked and nobody went in except for
Holmes and Patrick Quaylin. About seven o'clock in the evening, Holmes came out of his office and asked
two men that were living in the building if they would help him carry a trunk downstairs, end quote.
A few days later, on January 2nd, Holmes returned to the shop that Charles Chappelle owned with a
body and a trunk containing a young woman. Her torso had almost no skin on it, including her face.
She was unrecognizable. Oh my gosh. The body was processed and then was also sold to a medical school.
This guy, Charles, isn't like, yo, where you getting these fucking bodies? So no, like almost kind of
because it wasn't, it wasn't too abnormal for doctors to be studying cadavers. Yeah, that's true.
And, you know, he was probably like, I'm gonna sell this skeleton, you know, to a whatever.
He had done it before in college, which I didn't put in here because I just
forgot, but he would actually, he would sell cadavers to medical schools. He was already doing it in
medical school. He was actually going to, he was grave robbing and he was stealing corpses and he
was selling bones. But like the ones that he's given to these Charles guys, like both of them
have had their faces like completely mutilated. So like you can't tell who they are like that's
not fucking ringing any bells. That's like sounding any alarms. Probably not. That's what he did. He
was a skeleton articulator. That's what he did for a living. He's probably just like, don't ask,
don't tell, honestly. Probably. And he's probably getting a pretty good pickpick out from it.
When her family got concerned that she and that they had not heard from Emeline, especially after
the move from LA, because she had moved from LA, and then she got caught up in this fairy tale so
quickly, Holmes insisted that Emeline had cheated and eloped with another man, moving on yet again
to another state. He claimed that he had been in correspondence with Emeline previously,
referring to her as Mrs. Phelps now. Oh my god, what an arrogant fuck. He just made up the story.
And he's like also making up again that she cheated on him just like he did with his ex-wife.
With Clara. After some time and with no evidence, the family had to accept that they likely would
never see Emeline again. So. Oh, that's awful. Holmes was in the business of finding a new secretary
now. Many Williams had known Holmes for some years now, but she had been living in Boston.
She was the daughter of a large property owner in Fort Worth, Texas, and eventually inherited
this family property. Spending more and more time together while working for him, Holmes told many
of a man that he knew by the name of Alexander Bond. Alexander Bond. Alexander could take the
property that she owned and essentially double its worth, making a butt ton of money for many.
So many signed over her property to Alexander Bond, however there was no Alexander Bond.
If it was H.H. Holmes Bond. It was actually signed Holmes.
Holmes had actually signed off on an apartment for many while she was staying in Chicago,
and he was essentially paying for her rent while she was living there.
Okay, that doesn't matter because he's making so much fucking money off of her shit that he just
scammed her out of. Yeah, exactly. I'll just go ahead and pay for her rent. Yeah, exactly.
He's doing her a favor. Throw you a bone.
Sleeping many off of her feet. That was stupid, sorry. Sleeping many off of her feet.
Holmes married many, or at least they had a ceremony. Holmes never actually filed the paperwork,
keeping in mind that he's now both married to Clara and murder. Because nation. And Emeline.
Well, he had proposed to her, but he had never married her. He killed her before he could do that.
Many was very close to her sister Annie, and when many started getting concerned about some of the
choices that she had made regarding the property, the marriage, and the finances in general,
she began to write to her sister about her worries. Upon hearing this, Holmes asked many
to invite her sister to come visit so that Annie could see that there was nothing to worry about.
A twofer. Plus the World's Fair was going on at this point, and he suggested it would be an exciting
time for her to come and visit. All expenses paid. Annie came into town and stayed at the hotel.
On July 5th, 1893, Holmes asked Annie to come into his office. Once she was in his office,
he shoved her through a door into a dark, small, cold room. She quickly realized once he shut
the door behind her that she was actually stepping into a vault. Oh, what? Like a vault? Like a safe?
Like a big safe? A vault? Okay. Holmes then pushed the slot of the safe open and shoved a vial of
gas into it. No. He waited until Annie became quiet to leave to retrieve her sister, Minnie.
He traveled to the apartment he rented for her and brought her back to the hotel. It was the last
time that Minnie was seen alive. A few days after Minnie was last seen, the apartment she had was
cleared out by some men that were hired by Holmes. Yep. So that was like absolutely fucking planned.
He's like, oh yeah, have your sister come up here. That'll be totally fun. We can all hang out
together and like it'll be great. So becoming paranoid, Holmes decided to lay low in-
What? What? Texas. He's saying it like- You gotta ask mom. Holmes decided to lay low in
Fort Worth, Texas on the property. So he's super paranoid at this point. He just killed two women
in Chicago and he had inherited that Fort Worth property. So he decided to run there, which is
kind of funny because like I feel like today would be like where would this criminal be hiding out?
At the property of the person he just fucking killed. Exactly. That he just somehow managed to
like get in his possession like a week ago. Exactly. So literally he just abandoned his castle at
that point, which I'm sure it's being taken care of, managed by certain people. Whatever. Yeah.
So not before yet marrying another woman named Georgina Yoke. Jesus Christ.
Georgiana, I'm sorry. Georgiana Yoke. He married her like after he killed many,
but right before he moved to Fort Worth. So they had known each other for some time
and I think he was like maybe it might be one of those asset things where he's like
marry me real quick and then I can just claim that you own my assets and then he left.
Oh. Is my opinion. Well, he's a fucking annoying. Yeah, of course. He committed various crimes to
kind of keep his head above water while he was in Fort Worth and he eventually got caught stealing
and he was jailed. His cellmate was actually infamous Wild West outlaw Marion Hedgepeth or
the Devinair Bandit. I have some other ones. Do you want to hear them? Yeah. The Hampson Bandit,
the Montana Bandit and the Derby Kid. The Derby Kid. And that sounds like a bull,
like a name of a bull in a rodeo. I had to include this because I know you like alias. This is so
good. The Derby Kid. The Derby Kid. Oh my gosh. While in jail, Holmes told Marion that he had
planned on faking his own death and collecting a life insurance policy of $10,000. Oh. Exchange
rate? I didn't do it. Oh. I didn't do it. $327,485 today. Okay, so $300,000. So he had told Marion
that if he could hook him up with a good lawyer that he could trust, he would have rewarded Marion
with $500. Oh. Marion agreed and got Holmes in touch with Jeppa Howe. Howe also agreed to help
Holmes with the scheme. However, the insurance company refused to provide the life insurance when
they got suspicious. Of course. Yeah. Duh. That's how that fucking works. Broke again and getting
frustrated. Oh my god. Holmes wrote to his old partner Benjamin Pytzel, right? Remember Benjamin
Pytzel? He's the one that introduced him to the secretary. He offered for Benjamin, his wife,
and their five children to come live with him in Fort Worth. Benjamin had a wife and five children.
You don't say. By the way. Well, it made it seem like he was hitting on the secretary lady from
earlier, but he kind of wasn't. It was just that she happened to be there and used. And then Holmes
is the one that got obsessed. Benjamin had a wife and five children, by the way. Disclaimer.
Once there, Holmes told Benjamin about the scheme and asked both Benjamin and his wife if they too
would go along with the scheme. They did agree and Benjamin's wife took out a life insurance policy
on her husband Benjamin using the alias BF Perry instead of Ben's real name. So the life insurance
policy was supposed to be for that $10,000. Okay. So after that, they would stage an accident that
was supposed to be held in Philadelphia, I guess just because they wanted it to be distanced enough.
Right. It was. Yeah. And then of course they would disfigure a cadaver that would take the place of
Ben. Okay. Thinking that her husband would be on his way to Philly, Holmes couldn't wait any longer
for the payout. Holmes held a chloroform rag over Benjamin's face until he passed out. He then burned
him alive using benzene and turned him into the life insurance policy company. What happened?
Did his wife know? No. She thought that they were on their way to Philadelphia. Oh my God.
And so he killed him and then turned in his body anyways. Yeah. So like it was essentially like
this was the man we were just here hours earlier signing a life insurance policy and now he's dead.
And then he's spontaneously combusted. Yeah. Can I collect please? I'm your front his wife's money.
God, it's awful. Yes. So that's terrible. Yeah. So he passed out and then he burned him with the
benzene. That's so awful. What a dick. You know what I was also thinking? Like how far like
science has come like nowadays, like you could never get away with like bringing a cadaver for
life insurance and be like this person's been dead for like four years and they have embalming fluid
in there or whatever. They look great. Yeah. What the hell? To cover up this crime even further,
Holmes told Benjamin's wife that he went into hiding after the success of the... Oh my God.
Whatever. The life insurance thing. And she's like cool. And she's just like oh okay. I guess she
doesn't know how long it would take to fucking travel to fucking Pennsylvania to Fort Worth, Texas,
commit a crime and then come all the way back. You know? Yeah. Because he would, I mean it would
have to be local I guess unless the insurance company was in Philadelphia. That makes a little
bit more sense. That's true. Yeah. Paranoid once more, Holmes decided to take off to Canada,
convincing Pysle's wife to bring the children along. He actually convinced the mother to allow
three of her five children to travel with him, Alice, Nellie, and Howard. No. Along the route to
Canada, Holmes swindled as he went but traveled separately from Pysle stating that it was safe
for that they travel separately in case one of them got caught. Because they both are in it.
Yeah. Because they're both in the scheme now. And she still thinks what's with her husband?
She thinks that he's in hiding. Now all of them are going to go into hiding and it makes sense
to split up the children because she doesn't want all of her children to be in custody potentially
if she gets caught or vice versa. So she just what like chose her favorite and we're like okay
stay with me and then hopefully we don't get caught. She kept the baby baby because it was a
baby baby and then she kept the eldest I guess to help her. Yeah. It was unclear of what kind of
treatment the children had received under the care of Holmes but what we do know is this.
He attached a hose into a hole that he had created in the lid and he gasped the girls
while they were in the trunk. So he attached the hose to the gas. Did you know how old they were?
No, didn't say. Oh my gosh. When the girls were eventually found buried on the property of the
rental house that they stayed in detectives found that Nellie's feet were actually removed.
Likely because she had clubbed feet and they suspected that Holmes removed them so that it
was harder to identify her. Yeah. Keep in mind the mother also doesn't know this because she's
also traveling separately although they're traveling kind of parallel. Okay. So they're
kind of always near each other but they don't stay in the same places. Yeah she has no idea.
He still has one child left with him though right? Yes. The caravan continued back into the states
and settled in Enneapolis for a night. Content warning. Their Holmes murdered Howard by poisoning
him. He proceeded to process his body to cover up his identity removing the boy's teeth and burning
him beyond recognition. Oh my god. That's just like when I heard that was like uh. That's so sad.
Meanwhile in a Texas jail, Marion was waiting for his payout which never never came. Yeah.
Infuriated by this, Marion actually ratted out Holmes giving detectives details of the crimes
that Holmes intended to commit and where they might be able to find him. Starting with the
Fort Worth house, they found signs of fraudulence and began to trace his tracks. Holmes would
eventually be found in Boston in 1894. He was arrested for stealing horses. Oh my god. And the
thing is is like with the children like you know that he was like oh it's best if we split up and
then he was like I'll take these three children like with full intent that he knew he was going to
kill them. Well and then was also again it was one of those reports that I had heard that the
children started asking like where's dad where's dad where's dad where's dad and he was like great
these children are witnesses essentially. Yeah. So I think that he was taking out as many as he
possibly could and then would eventually probably kill um uh Pitzer's wife and his other kids.
If he could yeah. That's awful. What a dick. After he was in custody, detectives searched the castle
for more evidence of his crimes. Although they have never fully been confirmed, after the investigation
it was determined that Holmes may be responsible for six more disappearances around the castle.
Dr. Russell had an office in the castle and disappeared in 1892. Kitty Kelly was also a
sternographer for Holmes and disappeared as well. John Davis left his family a note saying that he
went to the world's fair and stated that he intended to stay at the castle for lodging.
Henry Walker worked for Holmes saying that he trusted Holmes enough to have his life insurance
beneficiary change to Holmes while working for him. Oh my gosh. It is unclear if this letter was
authentic or if it was somebody posing as Henry. Yeah. Milford Cole received a letter in the mail
in 1894 to come to Chicago and work for Holmes before she disappeared. Lucy Burbank's pocket
book was found inside the castle, hinting that she wouldn't leave a behind, therefore she never
left. Yeah. Although a full number is never known, given witnesses, reports, and timelines, there is
estimated to be about 20 to 200 victims that are potentially murdered by Holmes. 20 to 200?
Holy shit. Mostly because the world's fair attracted so many people, there's just no way
to tell how many travelers came and went through the castle. In October, Herman Webster Mudgeit,
aka H.H. Holmes, was convicted of murder of Benjamin Pitzer and subsequently confessed to
murdering 27 people. Oh my gosh. Holmes has actually paid $7,500 to give his confession
exclusively to a local newspaper. That's like... But like you're not gonna be able to have that
in jail. Yeah, exactly. Well, he was sentenced to death by hanging, so yeah. In a twist of irony,
Holmes had asked that when he was to be buried, he wanted to be 10 feet down and covered in
concrete. As the idea of body snatchers, stealing him and dissecting his body was way too much for
him to handle. Oh, that's so sad. Oh my goodness. Did you just chop his penis off while he was alive
and then intentionally desecrated his body? No, that's fucked up. But like seriously,
so your biggest fear is someone doing to you what you've done to so many people.
Wow. Concept warning. How poetic. In an even bigger twist of irony, on execution day, Holmes'
neck did not snap. He instead suffered for close to 15 minutes before he was ultimately
exfixiated. Good. Which is also, again, ironic because he fucking gassed people and he smothered
people. Yeah. He was buried in an unmarked grave. He was 34. Patrick Quinlan, which was the man that
had said that that one witness saw him going in and out of Holmes' office that day, the Emmeline
was lost scene. He actually committed suicide years later by a Strychnine poisoning? Strychnine?
I think that's how you say it. I think that is, yeah. He left a note next to him simply stating,
quote, I couldn't sleep, end quote. Oh, that's really kind of sad. It's really fucked up.
In August of 1895, the castle mysteriously caught fire after there had been some discussion of turning
in the castle into a museum or a memorial. Oh, hell no. Fuck that. So I think honestly, there was
like reports of two people around like 8, 9 p.m. running from behind the scene and then the castle
was engulfed. Good. What the fuck? Why would you want to make that like a museum? It completely
decimated the second floor conveniently and the building would eventually be demolished
in its entirety in the 1930s. Oh, wow. In 2017, an unmarked grave was unearthed to test the theory
that Holmes had in fact blackmail or hired someone that looked like him to take his place in
prosecution and execution. The body was still preserved exponentially well. The body still had
clothing covering it and even remnants of a mustache adorned his face. DNA from the body was
tested against a known great-grandchild of Holmes. It was positive to be Herman Mudgeit. Don't worry.
Oh my god. I was literally going to be like, shut the fuck up. He's still alive? No, he's not still alive.
Oh my god, that's scary. But again, one of those rumors, like he made so many people believe so
many things. So many things. So many people did just believe things about him. It's true. Like,
what if that was it? Like, what if he had, what if that wasn't him at the time? Like,
what if that wasn't him at the trial? What if he had hired somebody? That's why he was known to do it.
He was reburied and his remains remain in the Holy Cross cemetery located in Delaware County,
Philadelphia. So our story is over. Well, there are some people that are out there that do believe
that H.H. Holmes is actually another famous killer, perhaps Jack the Ripper. Did you know this? I did
not know that. I just got full body goosebumps. But Jack the Ripper was really prevalent in London.
But he's an English Lord. He's an English Lord. Oh my god. Okay. He's got like the biggest
chill. And then I heard some noise. It was my foot. But he was an English Lord. And he,
that was scary. I literally got like the biggest chill in the world. Like, that was really creepy.
Go ahead. He had vowed to take, what's her face, to London to meet his family? That's right. So Jack
the Ripper, this was 1888 to 1889. Just one year, the streets of derelict London were terrorized by
a man by a man who would slay women in the streets. Jack would strangle his victims so they couldn't
shout out and he would mutilate the bodies. The mutilization was done so precisely that
investigators determined that the culprit must have had immense medical knowledge. Yep.
In at least three of the victims, some of the organs were removed entirely with surgical skill.
It's also known that back then the only way to get to the UK was by boat and it took close to a
month. But there is a gap in H.H. Holmes' timeline. Jack stopped killing in 1889, but Holmes started
killing in late 1889. So Jack stopped early and he started late in the year. So it would give him
enough time to travel back. And this would also be while the castle was being built. So where did
he stay during that time? Yikes. Right? Yikes on bikes. So it is plausible. That's so funny because
I mentioned fucking both of them in the beginning of this episode. I know. You're so funny. There's
even documentation saying that an H. Holmes traveled to the UK during this time as well,
although Holmes is a very common last name. Yeah. Many composite drawings of Jack the Ripper
look eerily similar to Holmes, although What Man Didn't Have a Mustache Back Then.
Lastly, his writings. Jack's handwriting samples have also been studied by linguists who suggest
that Jack is actually American based on his spelling and phrasing. So reasons that it wouldn't be
Holmes. Jack killed prostitutes. He was known to do that potentially for sexual gain, while Holmes
was much more money focused. Yeah. Jack seemed to have tacked opportunistically, like walking down
the street when he could. And Holmes was in a house. And methodical. And methodical. Exactly.
He thought about those crimes and Holmes was for the long game and Jack was for just the moment.
Yeah. So, but many suspects have been named, but no one has officially been identified as
Jack the Ripper, but we do know that H.H. Holmes is dead. So. Yeah. And that may actually might be
maybe he went over to the UK and spent time there and went on this kind of frenzy, if you will.
And then when he was like, okay, when I go back home, I got to control myself. I can't be doing
that shit over. Yeah. It was like a full-on vacation. Isn't that interesting? That's really
interesting. I actually, no, it's a wonder why earlier when I was thinking Jack the Ripper,
that name popped in my head, because I've probably heard the comparison before that it
might be him. But in really good, really good story. Interesting. I actually, I listened to an
episode on Jack the Ripper. It was like a four-part episode that Morbid did. And it was really good.
Elena is just amazing and she's super thorough. But it was like not that long ago. And so things
that you were saying right now, I'm like, oh yeah, that doesn't, I do remember that. I do remember
that. But I've never heard a story on H.H. Holmes like specifically. So that was really good. I
liked that. Thanks. Yeah. It was, it was a lot of, it was interesting to research because like I said,
it is such an old case. Yeah. They said it's an a 19th century case with a 20th century spin. Like
because it's just so much information's been passed down and manipulated and talked about and
what's real, what's not. Yeah. And it is. I mean, you know, even Jack the Ripper was the origin
story of a lot of like vampires and Dracula and like things like that. So it's not hard to think
that somebody around that same time would have such a, I guess like an unclear history. Yeah.
And like, of course, there's like urban myths and urban legends and things like that. And since it
is so long ago, like you're right, it's a lot of hearsay. Right. Yeah. So I'm like, I used a little
bit of both. I used a little bit of both so you can determine what you think is true and what you
think is not. So well, that was really awesome. I'm super glad that I didn't know who that was
before going in it because it was really made everything like super like whoa, like the reactions
are all genuine. Now everybody knows that Herman Mudgeit is a changed home. Yeah, that's really
wild. Wow, what a terrible name. I wonder why he changed it. I know. My name is Herman Mudgeit.
Yeah, either way, a piece of shit, both of them, if they're two different people or if they're the
same person pieces of shit. But that was a really great case. So definitely enjoyed having you guys
here with us in spirits, just listening, even though we're talking just to each other. We always
think that we're in a room full of people telling the story. Thank you guys for continuing to support
us. If you want to support us monetarily, especially through the holidays, you can go to our
Patreon at DiagnosingAKiller, sorry, patreon.com slash DiagnosingAKiller. You can follow us on
Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller. I did want to mention real quick someone commented on our most
recent Instagram post and corrected me. I had said Waterloo, Illinois when I was talking about the
John Wayne Gacy case and it's Waterloo, Iowa. I think I mentioned later in the episode that it
was Iowa, but that was my mistake. But we like when people point things out like that to us.
I didn't even notice that I said it and he even said like when it was in the episode. I was like,
thanks so much. I appreciate that. But yeah, we want people to reach out to us. We want people to
give their input. It makes me feel good that people are listening and paying attention to what
we're saying and catching things like that. I don't pay attention to you half the time. Yeah,
I know sometimes I zone out, but it's okay. But you can follow us on Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller.
We also have Twitter at Killer Diagnosis, TikTok, DiagnosingAKiller, and you can email us at
diagnosingakiller at gmail.com. We will be back soon with another episode and yeah, anything else you
got? No. Okay. Love you. Bye.