Hello!
Welcome back to diagnosing a killer, the mental breakdown.
I'm Koelle.
And I'm Kenna.
Did I already say that?
No, oh just.
I think that you were anticipating me to say it with you and then you looked at me and
that was quiet.
I started and then I zoned out at the same time so it was like, it happens.
Hey guys, it's me, Koa.
It's Koa.
I'm like, I'm- Koa!
Oh god, that was loud.
Sorry.
Koa.
I went out last night and we- I signed it for karaoke and you know, I had been drinking
like a little bit but I wasn't like anywhere crazy and I go up there and I was super nervous
because we had a new bar, like I hadn't been there yet and I didn't know anybody in the
room and I got off the stage and I was like, I just blacked out for like a entire-
I just straight blacked out.
I just straight up blacked out.
It's fine though.
Anyway, welcome g- wow.
Already messing up.
I don't know.
Anyway, welcome back to the mental breakdown.
Welcome back.
I feel like, I don't even want to say we haven't-
It's very pissing me if you're gonna be-
It's very pissing me now.
I'm unapologetic at this point.
People are listening to this in three years.
They're gonna be like, I didn't even notice.
Didn't even notice.
Yeah.
It's just one right after the other.
Yeah, exactly.
It's fine.
Well, we're gonna start this mental breakdown out by reading an email.
Yeah, email.
We got an email from one of our listeners.
This email, subject is that mental breakdown.
Ooh, that one.
That one.
Yeah, I don't know which one it is.
We're gonna see.
So this email says, hey, so here's my input on the last mental breakdown where you talked
about the deadliest drugs in America.
Ooh, that was mine.
I myself have recently begun to become aware of the long-term effects that my drug used
after hearing you talk about the effects of cocaine on the nervous system.
It's kind of shocking and very humbling to come face to face with the fact that I may
have triggered a type of mental illness by using drugs.
I would like to thank you for bringing that piece of information to light, but more importantly,
I want to make a comment about heroin users.
Mmm.
It pains me whenever I see someone going through an addiction to heroin and I celebrate when
I know that someone has kicked the habit.
There's one thing that you mentioned that strikes me as interesting though, and that
is that even a person who has been clean for months or years may still suffer the same
physical effects of heroin use despite not having done that drug in that time.
What's chilling to me is that the support system a former user has built in the time
might see the signs of use again and think that the user has fallen off the wagon when
they really haven't.
Hmm.
And then their mistrust might be a trigger for the user to begin their habit again.
I think it's important for people to realize that these symptoms of use are lifelong and
when people start exhibiting them, that's when they need help more than ever, especially
if they haven't been using because at that point in time it's all the same in their mind,
especially if the people who need them to believe in them stop supporting them.
I love all that you guys do keep up the amazing work.
Oh, that was nice.
That was a nice email, but that is a really good point.
It's unfortunate that, and I learned a lot researching for that mental breakdown and even
you know talking to you about it while I was presenting it.
And it's crazy how like you can literally have symptoms of drug use or long lasting
mental health effects even when you're not using it at all.
Like a year after the fact you're exhibiting withdrawal symptoms and stuff.
It's wild.
I mean that's scary.
It really makes you not want to do drugs.
And that is an interesting thing that this person pointed out was that the support system
that they've built around them, they might accuse them of using again.
You know, say you've reconnected with friends and family and stuff and then they think that
you're using again when you're not.
Yeah, it's just still those lingering symptoms.
Well, thanks for that nice email.
I love getting emails from people.
It's just so much fun reading and knowing that we're making an impact on people, especially
with the mental breakdowns because I know that true crime is super interesting.
Everyone really wants to listen to it.
And I was almost under the impression that like our mental breakdowns weren't as listened
to as the regular cases, which it's not the case.
They actually are both listened to just about the same, which is great.
So I'm glad that we can teach people something.
And then of course we learned something in the process as well.
Other than that, I think the only thing else that's new is that we have a TikTok account.
It took us a long time to get it started and we're still kind of like working the inner
and outs of it.
I don't really know how to use TikTok to do anything other than watch TikTok.
But hopefully we'll start to get some cool videos.
What did you say they were called, like the reels or the not the reels, but the thing
that Tim was telling you about, like the shutter shock, like images or whatever, you
can kind of put them on.
Yeah.
So there's actually an old high school friend of mine.
He actually, that's what he does as a profession.
He goes to places like Florida and does stock footage of like in the sea and like stuff
like that.
And then he sells those stock footages to like documentaries and stuff.
So like, you know, when someone's in California because they'll like do this aerial view of
Hollywood signage, people do that for a living and then they just sell it to TV shows or
whatever.
I mean, that makes so much sense.
I feel like I always wonder like, where do they get these clips from?
That's so fitting that they just coincidentally had this clip.
That's funny.
Isn't that funny?
So it's, yeah, they do that for a living.
So I had a old high school buddy of mine that that's what he did.
Anyways, there's free websites for that.
Okay, cool.
So we can start making.
Yeah.
Yeah, my editing is not pristine.
We need to start, you know, finding someone.
Maybe we can pay someone to help us.
Maybe, yeah.
Anyway, I'm excited to hear what we're going to talk about today.
So today we are going to be talking about the bystander effect.
So this is usually something that you'll learn in a psychology class for the most part.
So what is the bystander effect?
Let's define it.
The bystander effect is defined as a psychological theory that states that the more people that
are around, the less likely an individual is to offer help to like a victim of a crime.
Yes.
Essentially.
So one of the most accredited cases to this theory is actually the case of Kitty Genovese.
I don't know if you've heard of, no?
I don't think so.
Kitty Genovese.
So what most people understand about the case of Kitty Genovese, that's hard to say.
Is that she was actually murdered in front of 38 individuals who did nothing about the
crime as it unfolded for over 30 minutes.
I have heard about this.
I just didn't realize.
I recognized the name.
So maybe you've heard of it.
Maybe you haven't.
So the story goes as such.
Kitty Genovese was raised in Brooklyn.
She was the eldest of five kiddos and she actually worked in a bar.
She was a bartender in Queens.
And this is in 1964.
Kitty had finished closing up the bar around 2.30 in the morning on March 13th of that
same year, 1964.
She headed to her car to make her trip home and while she was on her way home, she stopped
at a red light.
And she was actually spotted by Winston Mosley and he was actually waiting in his car specifically
to find a victim.
Which is...
Yeah, that's cool.
So he waited in this parking lot for a while and just across from this parking lot is where
Kitty had stopped her car at the red light.
So he followed her.
He followed her home.
So when she parked her vehicle in her apartment complex, it's just like a parking lot.
It's not like a parking garage.
So when Kitty came out of her car, she started walking up to the front of her apartment complex
building and Mosley came from behind her and he started running towards her and he was
brandishing a knife.
Okay, that's terrifying.
Running?
Yeah.
So she heard someone running behind her.
She turned around, saw what he was holding and she started just running.
I just got the sudden urge to turn around and see anyone behind me.
No, you can see directly behind me.
So she began to scream, of course, like calling for help and she said something like, please
help me or I'm being stabbed, something like that.
Neighbors would later report that they had heard screaming and saw two individuals in
a tussle that they heard them screaming and yelling at each other, but they thought it
was a lover's quarrel.
So they didn't do anything about it.
They didn't see blood or anything coming from them.
One neighbor apparently did attempt to say something like, hey, leave that girl alone
from his apartment building window.
Oh, so like the eighth floor up, he's like, hey, what you doing down there?
Don't do that.
I see you.
Like what are you going to do?
So mostly when hearing the man scream, however, or yell, he actually ran back towards his
car.
Kitty had been stabbed twice, but pretty severely and in the back.
She tried to make her way around the rear of the apartment in an effort to hide from
the attacker.
Oh my God.
Well, in the rear of the attack, in the rear of the attacker.
Oh no, it's not that kind of show.
In the rear of the building, there was pretty much like an enclosed stairway.
So there was like a door that you'd get to upstairs, like to where the stairs are.
So she was just in that area.
Oh, I feel like that would be scarier.
Like you're now you're trapped.
And like, yeah, she was just in that area.
Not like victim blaming or anything, but that's, I feel like if that's your only option, that's
scary.
Right.
So apparently at this point, one neighbor did attempt to call the police and stated
that a potentially drunk woman was staggering around and yelling.
Oh, now she's in the area and it's her fault.
She made it to the inside of the doorway.
Unfortunately, Mosley wasn't done.
He hopped in his car and he tried to locate her and eventually would find her in the rear
of the apartment building.
And then he began to repeatedly stop her and then he also sexually assaulted her.
Oh my God.
So he had then dug through her pockets and he received the $50 that Kitty had made that
night.
Oh my God.
And left all of that for $50.
The crime took a total of over 30 minutes from beginning to end and it actually took
an ambulance an hour to arrive on the scene.
What?
So.
Oh, because she thought she was just a drug idiot.
So here's the story.
Oh my God.
So this is the story as it pertains to the bystander effect and what this is the biggest
example that people use when they talk about this case, right?
In that time, a neighbor had actually found Kitty and stayed with her until the ambulance
arrived.
So the media picked up this story and just two weeks later after the story had gained
attraction, a headline in the New York Times would say 37, which was actually a misprint.
This was to be 38.
38 who saw a murder did not call police.
During interviews, the Times also quoted a neighbor by saying that they quote didn't
want to get involved.
This is of course shocked and appalled people that so many could see something like this
and not do something about it.
There were other exaggerations and variations of the detail about this crime, including
that people said that they had heard that a neighbor actually turned up their radio
to drown out her screams.
What?
So this was published in the media.
Oh my God.
So apparently another quote was that everybody had just stood by watching a woman be knifed
to death.
Oh my God.
So it's sort of folk lore had kind of started to surround the case and it even claimed that
the block itself was almost like a death site.
So much so that there was a rumor that another woman had been beaten to death on the very
same spot that Kitty had passed away in or that vicinity in front of her apartment and
that no one called the cops or stepped in to help in that case either.
Okay, I get like not wanting to get involved.
That's great.
You don't want to get involved physically.
You don't have to call the fucking police.
You can make an anonymous call to the police and they'll not ever know that you were involved.
Like fucking.
So here we go.
Right.
So this is all the this is all the buildup right.
So this is the case that everybody talks about again with the bystander effect.
Here's the reality though.
Okay, we have to keep in mind it is 3am.
It's 3am.
Okay.
The crime scene is technically two locations.
So some witnesses who some witnesses who had seen the first part of the attack or whatever
they were witnessing didn't really get a good view of what was going on either.
And again, it's 3am, it's probably not a lot of people awake.
Whatever they bits and pieces that they did see they might not know what was going on.
Then the second location is also happening behind a closed door.
You know, and that's like the brunt of the attack was after she had crawled into the
stairwell.
So then nobody pretty much saw that part.
I feel like I'd be more likely to like turn my head away if I heard screaming in the middle
of the day though.
Screaming in the middle of the night is like definitely scarier.
I feel like that would be more cause for concern.
This is also 1964.
It's not the 1930s.
Also at this time, 911 did not exist.
So you basically just called a phone number like your local area phone number.
Someone would give like you would receive a phone call.
You write down a potential crime that's happening.
But there's no priority.
It's not like nowadays we call 911 and there's high priority and lower priority calls.
Here is, it is just you get to it when you get to it.
So and this is honestly from what I can remember.
Part of the reason why they started having things like 911 is cases like this.
So the only report that they actually got was of a drunken woman.
That's wild.
In any case, psychology has used the Keddie Genovese as an example again when talking
about the bystander effect.
And it is essentially the launching panel discovering more about why so many people
would do nothing in specific moments.
There's been plenty of other instances where this effect has been present.
And this is a content warning.
We will be talking about a few things that are pretty difficult.
I'm just going to give two other examples essentially.
So Jane Doe at Richmond High was actually sexually assaulted by a group of schoolmates.
She would survive the attack.
The attack was over two and a half hours long.
And there were about 20 other strangers around who actually watched and recorded without
doing anything.
Was it a physical attack or a sexual attack?
This is a sexual assault.
Oh my God.
Eventually a female classmate would notify the police.
So in another case, a Jane Doe was sexually assaulted on a train in front of tons of passengers
in Philadelphia.
Many people pulled out their phones but no one did anything for over 40 minutes.
Eventually a train employee who was actually off duty boarded the train during the assault
and they called police.
Why does the first thought in people's minds go to let's just record this act of assault
that's happening right in front of me.
If it's like a fight and you're in high school, sure, maybe if someone's not getting murdered.
But this person is being sexually assaulted.
It's awful.
And there's at least four or five other cases that are just on the Wikipedia page.
That's so gross.
Four by Santa Effect.
So why do people do nothing?
Psychologists say it's due to the lack of sense of responsibility and more of a sense
of anonymity.
So essentially I ask you to complete a task.
You would feel solely responsible to get that task done.
However, if you're in a group of 15 people or more and you're all working on one task
like a puzzle, then you don't feel as responsible to get more done than somebody else.
No, it's always like, well, someone else will call.
When you drive by and you see a fire and you're like, oh, I'm not going to report it.
It's surely someone else who reported it.
It's exactly that mindset.
So another interesting thought is the thought that most people also might not intervene
out of fear, not only for fear for their own self, but also taking inventory of those
around them.
They might not think that they're as capable as someone else.
So say you see someone being assaulted or harmed in some type of way.
You also take inventory and stock of the people around you and you're like, oh, well, I'm
young.
I'm whatever.
My mind would be as strong as someone else here.
And so it's not only just fear of your own autonomy.
I'm not autonomy.
But yeah, autonomy.
Your capabilities.
Yeah.
You don't want to put yourself out there because I would be like, well, I have a child.
I'm not going to put myself in the middle of that and go help someone.
However, if it's usually one-on-one, you're the only person that's there.
You have no choice.
You're like, OK, I have to say something.
I have to step up.
So it's really interesting.
It's similar to when you take, I don't know if you've taken a CPR course or any time recently
or anything.
But they do tell you whenever there's a situation and you find yourself needing to perform CPR,
the first thing that you should do is you tell someone to call 911, but you don't say,
someone call 911.
You point to someone and say, you call 911.
You get the defibrillator.
You point people out because if you just say it, same exact thing.
Like, I got it.
Or he can do it or whatever.
Or like, I don't want to take charge.
So you're supposed to delegate those things.
It's interesting for you.
Go call 911.
Yeah, I thought another thing that I was thinking about when I was researching this is not only
is it the fear of being harmed or the fear of not being able to do anything or maybe
exacerbating a situation, but also the fear of misunderstanding or misinterpreting what's
happening in the moment.
If I see a man and a woman that are making out or maybe it might be something that's
forceful looking or appearing to me, but if everyone around me is like, oh, it's no big
deal, then am I misinterpreting that?
I'm not going to, you know what I mean?
And that's the fear of a social construct at that point.
Because then it's like, socially, I'm fearful that if I say something, I'm going to be the
asshole because I said something.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
But also it's like, I'd rather overreact than underreact.
Like, instead of be like, oh, I'm sure it's fine.
I'd rather be like, hey, are you okay?
Like, are you hurting her?
Or is he hurting you?
No, everything's fine.
Like, that's, I'm sorry if we were all, okay, perfect.
You know, you're not being as sultry.
Yeah.
No, but I do get it.
Like, I don't know what.
I've definitely drunkenly said stuff like that before.
I'm like, oh, is everything okay here?
And we were like, yeah, why?
And I'm like, well, because he's really rude to you.
He's really rude to you.
What you said was not cool.
And I'll tell you what, like, it's hard to say something.
It's hard to be in a situation like that and be the one to say something.
I have, sorry.
I have a real quick, like, kind of related story.
I was working behind the bar at 5'4", a while ago.
And I was like 20.
Like, I was young.
So it's not even like kind of like adult that's like super confident and wants to say something
and stand up for you, you know?
And there was this couple sitting at the bar.
Well, I was on what we called the well, which is I was making drinks for the rest of the
dining room.
So I was just frequently making drinks.
It was really busy.
But I was also standing in the same spot for a long period of time.
And there was this couple and I couldn't, there's a lot of going on.
There's a lot of people I couldn't exactly tell at first.
But the guy was, they were older, probably in their 50s.
The guy was talking to her, like, verbally abusing her.
And all she had was a glass of water.
And he had like, he was on like a fifth beer.
He has like a whole plate of food in front of him.
And all she had was a glass of water.
Oh my god.
And he is like just ridiculing her.
Just like talking, like telling her that she's a piece of shit and blah, blah, blah, like
really bad.
But at first I didn't know exactly what I was hearing.
Like, are they joking?
Or is he on the phone?
So, yeah.
So I give it a second and I made sure I was right before I said something and I was so
nervous.
And I look over and she's fucking crying.
And I was like, I have to say something.
And so I, I'm sorry, sir.
I'm sorry.
Can you please not speak to her that way?
And you're making me very uncomfortable and she's clearly very upset.
And he goes, like he was like baffled that someone said something to him.
Oh no, someone said something to him.
And then finally, the first time in his life.
On either side of them, there's a couple.
I'm working with like three other bartenders.
Like I'm not the only one that heard that.
And he, yeah, first time someone stood up to him ever.
And especially, oh my god, a woman standing up to you, like, for, you know, god forbid,
right?
And he goes, this is none of your business.
And I was like, oh no, you're making it my business because you're being very loud and
you're upsetting her and you're sitting at my bar.
Yeah, you are making it my business.
So you are making it my business.
He goes, give me the check.
And I was like, I'm sorry.
And he goes, I said, give me the check.
You're gonna have to speak like this.
I don't even think I said I'm sorry actually.
He goes, give me the check.
And I didn't say anything.
And then he goes, I said, give me a check.
And I said, I heard you.
You can hang on one second.
And I continued to make my drinks.
And I sat there.
I felt like such a bad bitch.
I give him his check and I looked at her and I was like, are you okay?
Like, do you need me to call you?
And she's just shut down.
She didn't say anything to me at all.
And I felt so bad.
And I gave him the bill.
He paid it and then slams his money on the table or whatever.
And then he gets up and grabs her and they leave.
And I was like, oh my God.
It made me feel so bad.
I was like, I really hope that like nothing worse happened.
And I mean, obviously never got a follow up to that.
But it's one of those things.
And even in a situation like that, she wasn't being punched in front of me or drugged or
whatever.
She was just talking to her in a negative way.
And it was still so hard for me to say something.
Because again, everyone's around you.
If someone else will say something or someone that's older than me might speak up instead
of me having to do it.
But sometimes you're in a situation where you don't know what you're going to do until
you're in it.
And I was shaking because I had to go to the back afterwards because I was so freaked
out.
But I don't like confrontation either.
Absolutely.
Confrontation.
Yeah.
It is hard to speak up when you, what your moral compass is, might not be somebody else's.
Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes people don't even realize that man probably didn't even realize what he was doing.
Anybody else noticed.
Because he's probably so used to doing it.
Yeah.
No, he had no idea that anyone else was paying attention to him at all.
But by you saying that, you know, there might have been a part of him that snapped and was
like, oh, other people are seeing this.
Clearly he was aggressive.
I have to get out of here because I'm embarrassed.
Right.
Clearly he was aggressive enough to even give you a tone.
Oh no, absolutely.
And I mean, again, I really hope that nothing worse came out of it.
What I do hope is that one, she either realized that, oh my God, this is so bad that other
people are noticing or two, he realized, oh my God, this is so bad that other people are
noticing like I shouldn't talk to her that way, which it's probably the former.
It's not him.
He's a fucking dick.
He'll never change.
Leave him, girl.
Anyway, it's super interesting.
Do you have more?
No.
Oh, okay.
I like cut you off and I was like, oh, maybe she has more.
No.
Well, that was, yeah, that's super interesting.
The bystander effect is, again, you're right, it's in like every psychology course.
It's like a big deal, you know?
Yeah.
And it's statistically proven that you can, you're more likely to get away with murder
in a crowd than you are when you're one on one with, or one on two, or one on three.
Yeah, it's very surprising.
On the flip, I did read just a little bit about how the bystander effect, I don't even
know how much longer it's going to be studied because more and more people are getting comfortable
with saying something more often than not now.
I think the last statistical experiment that they did, I think it was in 2018 or 2019 somewhere
in there, but they said that more often or not, people will stand up and help others,
which is great.
I don't want to pat myself on the back or anything, but I think that has a lot to do
with our generation, especially getting to the ages that they are at now.
Being able to stand up for yourself, I feel like that's a giant theme of the millennials
generation is standing up for yourself and talking back and submitting.
So I think that might have something to do with it now that we're all at this age where
we feel comfortable and we don't feel like babies anymore.
We can say something and we do have a voice.
But also at the same time, mind your business Tracy.
I hear you, mind your business Tracy.
That's true.
There is some situations that you shouldn't just insert your nose in.
If someone's getting actively fucking assaulted, whether it be physical or sexual, come on
y'all.
Not you guys.
You guys didn't do anything wrong.
Come on people.
Anyway, that was super interesting.
Soops in.
So again, super main over here.
I've been re-listening to all of our posts.
And I got to the one final.
You're like, Soops cash.
Like, Soops cash.
Yeah, that was so funny.
Soops cash.
Anyway, well you guys check us out on TikTok if you like, wait, see, we have some poorly
edited videos, but they're out there.
You can give us a follow.
They're out there.
Give us a view.
We are, I think we're at like 150 views, which is not a lot.
Share all this stuff.
That's the most important thing is that if you like it, share it.
There you go.
That's, you know, yeah, hook us up.
They'll give us, give us more views.
I want to see just as many shares as us.
He likes.
That's what I want.
Exactly.
So that being said, you can follow us on social media anywhere where you listen to podcasts
we are on or actually I think we just got, not just got, but we're on Audible now.
It's still free, but we are there, which is pretty cool.
And then we are on Instagram at diagnosing a killer, Twitter at killer diagnosis.
TikTok is at diagnosing a killer as well.
Our Patreon, if you like what we're doing and you want to support us monetarily, our
Patreon is patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer.
And then our email is diagnosing a killer at gmail.com.
I want to keep being able to read these emails.
You know what I actually want?
I want to have so many emails to read that we have to wait till the end of the case to
read them because there'll be too much to do in the beginning.
That's what I want.
I like that.
I want.
We'll be back pretty soon with another case and then just keep going back and forth like
we have been.
Yeah.
We're coming up on a year by the way.
I totally forgot that.
We need a one year anniversary episode.
August 31st is a year for the cast.
So it's coming up.
Yeah.
Alright we'll see you guys later.
Love you.
Bye.
Bye bye.