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Hello! Hello! I am Kenna. I am Koelle. And welcome back to Diagnosing a Killer!

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I'm going to do something a little different. I think that we were on our hiatus and I

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think that I had a lot of time to think about what I wanted to do when I was back and forth

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with a bunch of different topics. But I landed on a really, really interesting topic that

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I've learned about in multiple of my different psychology courses. I'm sure you know about

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it. Listeners, you probably know about it as well. But I think it's just really interesting

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to kind of break down. That being said, this is a mental breakdown. It's not a full episode,

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so it's going to be kind of concise, but I'm going to try to be also kind of detailed

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in my description. So we are going to be talking about the Stanford Prison Experiment.

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Yes! Oh my God! I know! Okay, alright. It's so wild. Okay, and again, this will be a short

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excerpt of what the whole thing entailed. There is numerous documentaries on this. I'm

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going to name them at the end. There's numerous books you can watch. Watch! There's numerous

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books you can watch at the high walls. I like to watch books because I don't know how to

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read. Documentaries, all that good stuff. So I will mention that at the end. But if you

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don't know about the Stanford Prison Experiment, strap in. This is how we're going to start.

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In the beginning of August, it is 1971. An ad was published in the Stanford Daily reading,

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quote,

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Male college students needed to participate in psychological study of prison life. $15

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per day for one to two weeks beginning August 14th. For further information and applications,

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come to room 248 Jordan Hall, Stanford University. $15 a day? Yeah. This was 71. Let's look

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up the conversion rate. I want to know. I still think that's only like $30 even if it's

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doubled. It's not that much money. $71 a day. Okay, so it roughly translates to $205 a day

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today. Is 1971 that long ago? It was like 50 years ago. I guess so. 51 years ago actually.

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Oh, God. So we see this ad in the paper. This was seemingly normal, especially around this

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time considering the year. Especially like I'm a college student, make a little extra

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money. The fact that this was published in the school newspaper, no one thought anything

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of it except for, oh, maybe it's some kids trying to get some credit. It was published

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from one of the professors. It can't be anything crazy. Yeah. What the 75 plus applicants and

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the eventual 24 participants did not realize was that the man that was hosting the experiment,

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Professor Philip Zimbardo was going to change their mentalities, lives and well-being permanently.

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Dun, dun, dun. I had to set up like that because I feel cool. So I'm going to talk about professors

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Zimbardo just a little bit and then we'll get into the experiment. And experience. And

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experience. So Philip Zimbardo was born on March 23, 1933 in New York City. For the sake

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of brevity, we're not going to get super deep into his childhood. But when he became of college

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age, he attended Brooklyn College where he earned a bachelor's of arts in 1954, triple

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majoring in psychology, sociology and anthropology. Damn, right? I have a psychology degree and

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a sociology minor, but not a double degree. That's crazy. It's so much work. And he's

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probably in school for an extra two years just doing that. Yeah. He then went on to

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earn his master's of science and his PhD in 1959 from Yale, both in psychology. Wow. So

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he knows a lot about psychology. Once he received his degrees and was done with school for good,

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he used his knowledge to begin teaching at Yale, where he was a professor until 1967.

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Probably after he taught at Columbia University, but after only a year, he became a faculty

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member at Stanford in 1968. So sometime during 1968 and 1970, Zimbardo was cooking up some

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thoughts surrounding psychology and specifically the intense impact the human brain can have

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on your behavior. Him and his colleagues were extremely interested in the prison system,

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and especially in finding out whether the brutality reported among prison guards in

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the US was due to the sadistic personalities of the guards or if it had more to do with

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the prison environment. The main question being is brutality by guards in prisons dispositional

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or situational? So over these years, Dr. Zimbardo came up with the quote unquote perfect experiment

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in order to accurately test this question. And therefore the Stanford prison experiment

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was put into motion. We're going to get into it now. Now we're going to talk about the

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day of the experiment, which already lying because you said it was going to start on

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August 14 and it's August 17. Yaliah. Yaliah. Yaliah. On the morning of August 17 1971,

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10 college students surrounding the Palo Alto area received visits from local police officers.

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Without warning, the men were taken out of their homes and arrested for violating penal

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codes 211 and 459, which were for armed robbery and burglary. Did they not know that they

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were so they signed up for it and they they sign consent forms whole nine yards. This

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was not disclosed to them that this was going to happen. Isn't that illegal? Mm hmm. It's

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not necessarily illegal, but it's unethical. These 10 men were searched handcuffed and

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forced into the back of genuine police cars. These were the actual police arresting them.

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They were then transported to the police station where they were booked, fingerprinted, photographed,

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moved to a holding cell and eventually blindfolded. Right? It's like a hazing ritual. It's like

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a frat. After waiting four hours, the men were then transferred to the Stanford County

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prison, aka the Stanford University Psychology Department. That's where it actually was.

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They were in the prison. I love that. Now, if it's not already clear, these men were

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voluntarily participating in this study. However, the selection of who was going to be a quote

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prisoner and who would be a quote guard was completely random and decided by only a coin

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flip. Oh, wow. All of the applicants were given extensive tests, including family history,

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psychological problems, medical issues, disabilities, history of crime, drug use, etc. Out of the

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75 applicants, the 24 who were believed to be the most fit quote unquote, in relation

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to physical and mental maturity and health were chosen to participate. Oh, wow. So it's

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like they did extensive psychological tests to make sure you're not already schizophrenic

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and then you, you know, going here. Yeah, exactly. So these participants did not know

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one another prior to the experiment, and they were told very little about what they were

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going to be doing during the experiment, mostly because Dr. Zimbardo didn't know himself.

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Yeah. He was going to leave it to them to fucking figure it out. It's terrifying. So

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there wasn't like a write up of some kind that was like, this is what we're going to

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do and this is how I'll get into that later on once I'm done with the story because it'll

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explain a little bit more about that. All 24 participants were evenly divided into the

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roles of prisoner and guards, so 12 and 12. However, before the experiment began, three

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of the participants declined to move forward, leaving 10 prisoners and 11 guards. Okay,

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what happened to the, the, they just said that they didn't want to do it. I think one

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of them was like, no. And then the other two, it said something. I tried to look it up and

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it didn't, it was like on reserve or something. So I don't know if they gave them another

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test and they decided maybe these people aren't the right fit or they were like on the fence

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and so they were like, you know, it just sit out. But they didn't, it didn't say that they

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declined the, you know what I mean, to participate. It was kind of odd and I tried to look it

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up but it didn't make sense. Now when the quote prisoner is, this is last time I'm going

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to say quote because obviously they're not real prisoners. I want that to be clear, but

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I'm not going to say quote every time. When the prisoners arrived, they were stripped,

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naked, deloused and had all of their personal belongings taken away from them and locked

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in a separate room, very similar to a real prison. They were each given prison clothing

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and bedding and issued a uniform. In addition, they were only referred to by their prison

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number at this time and moving forward. Oh my God. Dr. Zambardo said the intention behind

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referring to the 10 men by ID numbers only was to make them feel anonymous. Right. In

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addition to having to be referred to by the numbers, they were only allowed to refer

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to themselves by that number as well and to other prisoners. They couldn't even use their

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last names or anything. No. So they weren't going to talk. So again, you're just dehumanized.

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Yeah. So even when they talked about each other, they could only use their numbers.

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The clothes the prisoners wore were smocks with their ID numbers on them, but they had

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nothing underneath. They didn't give them any undergarments. They were also required

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to wear a tight nylon cap over their heads, kind of like a tight hair net so that their

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hair was covered and they each had a locked chain around one ankle. So no identifying

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features like their hair would be considered like an identifier. Yeah. I don't know if

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you've seen any of the documentaries in the movie or anything, but they recreate this

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like really, really well. On the other end of the participants, the guards were dressed

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in an identical khaki uniform. Each of them carried a whistle around their necks and what

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they called a billy club that are real from the police. So like a baton, the police donated

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these batons for the time being for them to actually use. Oh, that's a cool. Sorry.

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Zimbardo's a lunatic. Literally. On top of these items, this is wild to me. The guards

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were also required to wear sunglasses at all times. Why? To avoid them making eye contact

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with any of the prisoners. So they couldn't look at them in the eye and have that connection.

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So the prisoners couldn't see their eyes. Well, and the fact that they're all wearing

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the same uniform, right? As well is like this immediate separation. Yeah. And authoritative.

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Like we're an authoritative team and you guys are, oh God. Isn't that so creepy? That grinds

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my gears. So this is how it worked. Three guards at a time worked shifts of eight hours

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while the other guards remained on call in a secluded area. So they weren't actually

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working but they couldn't leave. Okay. The guards were given very loose rules. Do whatever

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you think is necessary to maintain law and order in the prison and command the respect

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of the officers. Okay. Physical violence, however, was not permitted. So your goal is

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to make them respect you and do whatever you need to do without physical violence to make

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them respect you. This is where it gets fucking wild. For Dr. Zimbardo, not only did he observe

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the behavior of the prisoners and guards, you know, like the person putting on the experiment

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like a psychologist, he also acted as the prison warden. Oh, so he's joining his own experiment

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that is so against ethics and that is a huge red flag. No one saw that. He's like, yeah,

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I'm going to watch the experiment over. But I'm also going to get like, he's like, all

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right, everybody, we're going to play house. All right, you be the mom, you be the dad,

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and I'll be the plumber. Seriously? Within a very short time, the prisoners and guards

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were settling into their roles just like a real prison would be run with very little

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direction, mind you, no one's going in there telling them what to do. They're all said,

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here we are, you're the guards, you're the prisoners, make them respect you and then

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they left all they had was cameras to watch and they weren't even in the room. What? They

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weren't even like the people like the psychologist setting the experiment up were not even in

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the room most of the time. That's so weird. So it's literally it's like a it's like a

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like a hamster and a maze. Literally so weird. Well, the guards had an especially easy time

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moving into their roles. Would you think? Yeah. Within hours of the experiment beginning,

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the guards began harassing the prisoners. Around 2 30am on the first night, the prisoners

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were awakened by whistles for the first of many counts through the night. According to

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the guards, the counts served as a way for the prisoners to memorize their numbers. But

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more importantly, it provided the guards with many opportunities to showcase their control

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over the prisoners. So what do you mean like they would use their whistles like they they

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would wake them up and make them count and tell them their name and make sell them like

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hey I'm here or whatever and they did that multiple times a night like a roll call. Yes.

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Okay. Okay. To prove pretty much we can do whatever we want to do. You have to listen

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to us. Interestingly enough, the prisoners seem to quickly adopt prisoner like behavior

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as well. They talked amongst themselves about prison issues quite frequently and even told

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on other prisoners to the guards to gain their trust and their privileges. So they started

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acting very quickly within the first 24 hours like real prisoners would. So he was like

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they're okay. So like they wanted to gain the trust of the of the officer. So they would

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like rat other prisoners out. They say he's not listening to or whatever he didn't do

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this or he didn't do that to gain that hey I'm on your side like I'm here. Wow. They

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began to take the prison rules very seriously and some even began citing with the guards

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when other prisoners didn't listen or acted out. Isn't that wild without any direction

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or any influence besides the guards? I mean I guess like in your mind like let's be honest

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the prisoners get the shit into the stick in this experiment right? But in your mind

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you're also like I'm I'm still human like I'm human and you're human and we can identify

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as humans like so that's just incredible. Now although violence was not permitted for

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the guards there was nothing against the rules when it came to physical punishment. The prisoners

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were frequently given pointless and boring tasks to accomplish along with insults and

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taunting generally dehumanizing them. Along with this push-ups seemed to be the most

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common form of physical punishment imposed by the guards. One guard even going so far

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as to step on their backs when they were doing push-ups or having other prisoners sit on

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their backs in order to increase the difficulty. And they just did it because this is the whole

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experiment this is what Dr. Zimbardo wants to see. Will you respect authority when it's

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in there and is it because these guys are assholes or is it because of the situation?

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Right. Yeah. Although the first long day passed without any incidents the prisoners were

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slowly beginning to have enough. I mean you have to think about the fact that they're

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not here because they're in prison they're here voluntarily. They can leave anytime

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they want they're only making $15 a day you know how at what point does it not become

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worth it? Right. On the second day of the experiment the prisoners decided to fight

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back they removed their stocking caps ripped off their numbers and barricaded themselves

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inside their individual cells by putting their beds up against the door. What? So no one

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could come in. Well they outnumbered the guards because there was only three guards on duty

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so they called three more that were on standby. The guards retaliated by using a fire extinguisher

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shooting a stream of carbon dioxide into the cells which obviously was cold as shit on

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their skin and forced them back against the walls. After the prisoners were at bay the

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guards broke into each cell stripped them all naked and took each bed out of the cells

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entirely so they don't have clothes or a bed anymore. This sounds like a movie. It sounds

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like shushing. Yeah. Like that's... The ringleader of the rebellion the prisoner was placed into

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quote solitary which ended up being like a little tiny closet that didn't have you know

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air or light or anything. They made their own solitary. They did. Oh god. And the guards

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began to harass the rest of the prisoners. On the other end of the riot the prisoners

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that did not participate or participated the least were given special privileges including

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getting their uniforms and their beds back allowing them to wash their hair and brush

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their teeth and on top of this they even got to eat special food in front of the other

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prisoners who had temporarily lost the privilege of eating. It's like Popeyes. I don't know

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what it was. This was an attempt by the guards of course to break the solidarity among the

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rebellious prisoners. Not only did the riot cause the first consequences but over a few

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days the relationship between the guards and the prisoners began to change of course. Doctors

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in Bardot noticed that as the prisoners became more dependent on the guards the guards became

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more derisive towards them. As the guards contempt for them grew the prisoners became

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even more submissive. That wasn't the opposite. Huh. After the prisoners were submissive enough

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the guards became even more assertive and aggressive. You're already listening to me.

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Yeah. Why aren't you going to be more rude? Yeah. So I guess they felt like they had

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more control or they had more... I don't know. So they're going to keep using it. Yeah.

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They demanded even greater obedience from the prisoners and since the prisoners were

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so dependent on the guards for every little thing they would continuously find ways to

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please them such as telling on other prisoners like they were earlier. This continued through

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the second day and into the third. Oh the third day of guard. This is supposed to last

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for two weeks and it's only the third day. Oh my god no. This is where the turning point

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happens. Less than 36 hours into the experiment prisoner number 8612. I don't know his real

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name it wasn't in there. Nobody does. Probably not. You're not the only one. Yeah. He began

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experiencing acute emotional disturbance, disorganized thinking, rage, and uncontrollable

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crying. What? This makes me just break my heart. So sad. Oh it gets worse. The guards

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brought him in front of the other prisoners in an attempt to console him but really embarrassed.

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They told him he was weak and they offered him quote informant status. I guess that

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means he would have an easier time than the others. Maybe he would be on his own but still

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in the experiment. I'm not really sure what that meant. Well they're making up their own

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rules at this point. Exactly. But he didn't really get that far so it's fine. Number

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8612 was noted as returning to the other prisoners and telling them you can't leave,

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you can't quit. Which is very odd. Yeah. He's being embarrassed in front of everyone. Offered,

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he's being offered to leave and he's telling the other guys don't break like you can't

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leave. Soon after this, according to Dr. Zimbardo, number 8612 began to act quote crazy. Great

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word for my psychologist and my friend. Right. And began to scream, curse, and went into a

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rage that seemed out of control. It wasn't until this point that Dr. Zimbardo and the

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other psychologists running the experiment realized they should probably let him out.

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Yeah. Yeah. Before he hurt someone or himself. And then there were nine. They let him go.

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Oh wow. Because he had every right to go from the beginning. Yeah. Because he's not actually

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in prison. Yeah. I guess you forget. The next day, so this is day four, the guards held

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a visiting hour for parents and friends of the inmates. Oh no, that's awful. Well they

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began to get worried that when the families saw that the state of the prison they were

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in, they would want to take their children out of there because they don't have to be

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there. They also don't have to be there. They can very much just walk out. This being the

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worry, the guards washed the prisoners, they bathed them, they had them clean and polish

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their own cells and they fed them a real big dinner and everyone was happy and they played

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music over the intercom to make like everything light and yippie-skippy. This is still at the

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school right? Yes. It's not a real jail. Yes. Oh my god. After the visit with parents and

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friends, no one really said anything. They were like, oh this is all yippie-skippy, fine

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and dandy. So that means the prisoners didn't say anything, at least not anything alarming

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enough for the parents to be like, what the fuck? What are you doing here? Isn't that

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terrible? Can't you just come home? Seriously. After the visit with parents and friends, a

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rumor spread of a mass escape plan by the prisoners. The guards became fearful that they would

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lose the prisoners so they enlisted the help of the actual Palo Alto Police Department.

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Are you serious? Where the god? Holy shit. They didn't show up. Don't worry. They were

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like, we have real things to do. Really? So just go hang out at the college. What do

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you do? The guards yet again escalated the level of harassment, forcing the prisoners

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to do repetitive tedious work such as clean toilets with their bare hands, which is gross.

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At this point, Dr. Zimbardo was just not satisfied with the realism of the study. It wasn't

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real enough? No, it wasn't real enough. Or he didn't know how real it was or it could

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be. If it could be worse. Did he install an electrocution chair at all? Right. All right,

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now you're on death row for breathing. For breathing. He enlisted the help of a Catholic

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priest that was actually a prior prison chaplain to evaluate how realistic the prison situation

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actually was. The chaplain interviewed each of the prisoners individually in which half

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of them introduced them to him by their number. Oh, I hate that. Right. It was later found

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out that the priest told the inmates the only way they would get out was with the help of

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a lawyer. Oh, that's so messed up. Because he's like, this is fucked. One of the prisoners

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that the priest spoke with, number 819, broke down during their conversation and began to

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cry hysterically. After this meeting, the psychologist running the study removed the

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chain from his foot, took the cap off his head and told him to go and rest in a room

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that was adjacent to the prison yard. They told him they would get him some food and

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then take him to see a doctor because he was clearly having a crisis. While this was being

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arranged, one of the guards got wind about what was happening and lined up all the other

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prisoners and had them chant out loud, quote, prisoner number 819 is a bad prisoner. Because

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of what prisoner number 819 did, my cell is a mess, Mr. Correctional Officer. Apparently

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the guards had tossed each of their cells because of the crying and told the other prisoners

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that it was that guy's fault because he was crying and hysterical that their cells were

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messed up. This is breaking my brain and I'm just listening to it. Isn't it wild? I mean,

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the documentary, I was in tears. It's fake. It's a reenactment. The psychologist quickly

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realized that prisoner number 819 could hear the chanting so they went into the room to

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check on him where they found him sobbing uncontrollably. They tried to get him to

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leave the experiment but he said he could not leave because the others had labeled

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him as a bad prisoner. He was afraid to go back. He was afraid to leave the place. Because

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he felt like he's a bad prisoner, like he did something that bad and he's actually

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a prisoner. He was brainwashed. He thought he was really in prison. In response to this,

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Dr. Zimbardo said, quote, listen, you are not number 819. You are, insert his name.

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I don't know it. And my name is Dr. Zimbardo. I am a psychologist, not a prison superintendent

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and this is not a real prison. This is just an experiment and those are students, not

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prisoners, just like you. Let's go. End quote. According to Dr. Zimbardo, the student stopped

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crying suddenly, looked up and replied, okay, let's go, as if nothing had been wrong.

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Talk about a mental breakdown. Straight up. Like, that is so dissociative for reality.

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Like, it's so sad. Do these poor people get counseling afterwards?

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Oh, sure. They have to. Unless they be sued.

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Now Dr. Zimbardo had originally planned for the experiment to last two weeks, like I said.

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But after only six days, it was terminated due to the emotional breakdowns of prisoners

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and excessive aggravation of the guards. Oh my gosh.

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Another factor of the decision to terminate was when Dr. Christina Maslach was brought

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in to conduct interviews with the guards and prisoners and strongly objected when she saw

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that the prisoners were being abused by the guards. She was absolutely outraged and she

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quoted as saying, quote, it is terrible what you were doing to these boys. It's noted that

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out of 50 or more outsiders who had seen the inside of the prison, she is the only one

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who ever questioned its morality. What? Who else was going in and out? I mean, the family

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and friends. Oh, the family and friends, yeah.

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And I'm sure a number of psychologists, that's homies with Dr. Zimbardo, so complete side

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note, we just paused for just a second and Koel just looked it up and Dr. Zimbardo got

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married to that lady that was outraged. Maslach. A year later. Yeah, Maslach. Maslach.

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That's so wild. Like a year later, he was married when the experiment went on. Well,

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yeah, but not to her. I know, but that's just like, you know, this is unethical. You can't

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do this. Marry me. He's like, what a role play. What a role play. You be the mom, I'll be

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dad. Exactly. And he'll be the plumber. So it wasn't until over 30 years later in 2008

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that Zimbardo finally noted, quote, it wasn't until much later that I realized how far into

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my prison road I was at that point that I was thinking like a prison superintendent rather

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than a research psychologist. Who saw that one coming? Who saw that when you put yourself

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in the fucking experiment? Who saw that happening? Seriously. According to Zimbardo and his colleagues,

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the Stanford Prison Experiment revealed how people will readily conform to the social

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rules they are expected to play, especially if the rules are as strongly stereotyped as

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those of the prison guards. Because the guards were placed in a position of authority, they

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began to act in ways they would not usually behave in their normal lives.

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That does sound interesting, you know, that the stereotype plays into that because you're

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acting or you feel like you're in this role. And that's just really intense. Or same with

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a prisoner. Like he would feel like you're, okay, I have to do what this guy says, because

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that's my role as a prisoner or stereotype of a prisoner.

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The prison environment was an important factor in creating the guards' brutal behavior because

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it was noted that none of the participants who acted as guards showed any sadistic tendencies

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before the study, and the finding was therefore supportive of the situational theory rather

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than the dispositional one, like we said earlier.

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Along with that conclusion, Zimbardo also proposed that two processes can explain the

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prisoner's quote final submission. So the first one being D, it's called D individuation.

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It says this may explain the behavior of the participants, especially the guards. This

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is a state where you become so immersed in the norms of the group that you lose your

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sense of identity and personal responsibility. The guards may have been so sadistic because

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they did not feel what happened was done to them personally, but rather it was a group

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norm. They may have lost their sense of personal identity because of the uniform that they

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wore.

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So it's not like I'm the one doing this, we are doing this.

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Right.

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So it's okay.

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Yeah, and that is interesting as well, which I guess you can also kind of say for the prisoners,

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because they were also someone in a uniform, but they had different names, I guess, like

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other numbers.

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Yeah, other numbers.

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But for the officers, quote unquote, officers, the prison guards, that absolutely is like,

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we have a sense of individualism, but we also wear the same uniform.

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Yeah.

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We have the upper hand because you are lower or you're lower than us, so we still have,

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we have free thought, you do not.

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Well, that's interesting that you say that because the second process that he said was

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called learned helplessness.

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He says this could explain the prisoner's submission to the guards. The prisoners learned

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that whatever they did had little effect on what happened to them in the mock prison,

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the unpredictable decisions of the guards led the prisoners to give up responding entirely.

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That is awesome.

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Because they always were changing it.

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Yeah.

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So no matter what I do, I don't know what's going to happen.

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I might as well just submit.

336
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That's interesting.

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Now after the experiment, Zambardo interviewed the participants.

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I don't know how he was allowed to interview them again, but he did.

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One of them didn't strangle him to death, literally.

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Quote, most of the participants said they had felt involved and committed.

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The research had felt real to them.

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One guard said, quote, I was surprised at myself.

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I made them call each other names and clean the toilets out with their bare hands.

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I practically considered the prisoner's cattle, and I kept thinking I had to watch out for

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them in case they tried something.

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Another guard said, quote, Acting authoritatively can be fun.

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Power can be a great pleasure.

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And another, quote, During the inspection, I went to sell to to mess up a bed which a

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prisoner had just made and he grabbed me, screaming that he had just made it and that

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he was not going to let me mess it up.

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He grabbed me by the throat and although he was laughing, I was pretty scared.

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I lashed out with my stick and hit him on the chin, although not very hard, and when I freed

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myself, I became angry.

354
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So it's like, like that's real.

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You could have strangled you to death because of this, like experiment, you know?

356
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A surprising thing about the experiment is that most of the guards found it hard to believe

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the way they behaved was really as bad as it was.

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Many said they did not think they were capable of the things that they did in the experiment.

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And of course, everything was on tape, so they were able to watch it back.

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The prisoners had similar things, interestingly.

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They said that they couldn't believe that they had responded in the submissive, cowering,

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dependent way that they had, and they said that they had been assertive types before

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the experiment.

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When the prisoners were asked about the guards' behavior, they prescribed the three usual

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stereotypes that can be found in any prison.

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Some guards were good, some guards were tough but fair, and some guards were very cruel.

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Another theory that Zimbardo explained could make sense of the experiment is describing

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it in terms of reinforcement, as the escalation of the aggression in the guards could be seen

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as being due to the positive reinforcement of the prisoners' actions.

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I'm gonna get more mad because the more mad I get, the better you do.

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Most of the guards later in the interviews claimed that they were simply acting during

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the experiment, and the psychologists agreed that because the guards and prisoners were

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playing a role, their behavior may not have been influenced by the same factors which

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affect behavior in real life.

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This being said, this means that the study's findings could not be reasonably generalized

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to real life, such as prison settings, and therefore the study has a low validity to

377
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a real life setting.

378
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That does make sense.

379
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It's similar, but it's not 100% this is why it'll happen or this is how it happens.

380
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Like you said, situationally it could be different, but maybe psychologically there is some truth

381
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or balance to that, right, in a weird way.

382
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The fact that this was an experiment means that 90% of the prisoners' private conversations

383
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were still being monitored by the experimenters, so it didn't exactly mimic a real prison

384
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setting, and the guards as well didn't necessarily have time to interact with personal information

385
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during their breaks, and at that time they actually used it to discuss the problematic

386
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prisoners or they simply didn't talk at all.

387
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One last thing I want to talk about before we conclude, and that's the ethical issues

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surrounding this experiment.

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This experiment has widely been known as one of the most unethical experiments that used

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human participants to ever be held.

391
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They received very many criticisms throughout many of the years after the experiment, and

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this is still being used today in psychology courses as an example of what not to do.

393
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I probably watched this, like I said, like three or four different classes.

394
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Some of the criticisms include the participants not being fully informed of what was going

395
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to happen.

396
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This is what we talked about earlier in the beginning.

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In reality, Dr. Zimbardo himself did not even know what was going to happen.

398
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Also, the prisoners didn't ever consent to being arrested at home.

399
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They were not told, partially because the final approval from the police was not given

400
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until minutes before the participants decided to participate, and partly because Dr. Zimbardo

401
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,240
wanted the arrest to come as a surprise, which is fucked up.

402
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,480
But give your police department a fucking heads up.

403
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,600
Call and say, hey, in case anybody thinks that somebody's being kidnapped or whatever

404
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,240
it is, they probably didn't even know.

405
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They didn't even know.

406
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,240
And what if these guys are like, no, you can't kid me to jail, I'm going to this experiment.

407
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,240
I feel like they don't even know.

408
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,960
No, but if somebody ran and then got real charges.

409
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Seriously.

410
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:27,960
Or something.

411
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:28,960
Yeah.

412
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,840
They got shot having been through a bit or something.

413
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,080
You know, like either way, both of these were breaches of the ethics of Dr. Zimbardo's

414
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,480
own contract that the participants all had signed before the experiment.

415
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,320
So they definitely had a case after this was all over.

416
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,320
Oh, of course.

417
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:42,320
The priest was correct.

418
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,480
It was the chaplain who ratted them all out.

419
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,640
Another breach of contract comes with participants playing the roles of prisoners not being protected

420
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,360
from psychological harm.

421
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,800
Although this experiment was not 100% ethical or even moral, Dr. Zimbardo still stands by

422
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,160
the fact that the benefits gained about our understanding of human behavior and how we

423
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,680
improve society should outbalance the distress caused by the study.

424
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:05,680
I agree.

425
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,720
There's a lot of stuff we learn from the study, but not at the expense of these people.

426
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,520
Like literally people that, some of these people were under 25.

427
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,720
Like that's ridiculous.

428
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:14,720
Lab rats.

429
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,440
And also, I was just going to say real quick, there's another experiment.

430
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,800
I'm sure you've heard about it and listeners, you might have heard about it as well.

431
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,320
It's the one, I don't know what it's called.

432
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,400
And it was on here, but I didn't put it in here.

433
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:32,520
It was the one where the people that were participants were expected, I'm sorry, were

434
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,520
made to believe that they were electrocuting someone on the other side of the door.

435
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,520
You know what I'm talking about?

436
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,520
Yeah.

437
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,560
And it was scary how much they were willing to turn up the electricity thinking they were

438
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,720
hurting someone on the other side of the door.

439
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,520
Just because someone in a lab coat tells them to.

440
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,640
Well, they were saying, well, yeah, you are supposed to zap and then you're supposed to

441
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:56,920
get zapped, but your zap is never more or less than theirs.

442
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,280
So or the supposed one.

443
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,280
So it's like a hand buzzer, basically.

444
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,720
So they feel like they get jolted and then they want to do it back, but they're not actually

445
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:06,720
shocking anybody else.

446
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,160
And so it's like, okay, they're going to death levels.

447
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,200
Like death levels.

448
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,840
And they think that they're doing it, you know, and some people just do it for fun, but most

449
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,360
often people do it in retaliation.

450
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,200
Because they think that they're getting zapped or whatever.

451
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,200
So wild.

452
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,720
Now, this study was the acknowledged inspiration for Das Experiment.

453
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:29,560
There was a 2001 German movie that was remade in the United States as the direct to video

454
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,400
film The Experiment in 2010.

455
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,680
And then there's one called the Stanford Prison Experiment, Cut and Dry 2015, which is the

456
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,040
one that I've seen.

457
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,200
And that was created with Dr. Zimbardo's active participation.

458
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,320
Yeah, I don't know why.

459
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,600
It was me.

460
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,600
I did it.

461
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:45,600
I was there.

462
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:46,600
I did it all.

463
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,800
That's the one that you would want to watch if you want more like actual events because

464
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:50,800
he's in it.

465
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:51,800
Like he gives you like facts and stuff.

466
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,320
So that's the Stanford Prison Experiment.

467
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,320
I'll put that in the show notes as well.

468
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,840
I love a good documentary.

469
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:56,840
It's really good.

470
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:57,840
But it's a reenactment.

471
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:58,840
It's not a documentary.

472
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,480
Like it's a, it doesn't, it's like a movie.

473
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,960
Like it doesn't, oh, that's not a narrator.

474
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:03,960
Well, maybe it's not a documentary.

475
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,960
I don't know.

476
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,920
It would be like a, like autobiographical or something.

477
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:08,920
Yeah.

478
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,920
Now, since the famous prison experiment, Zimbardo has continued to conduct research on a variety

479
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,880
of topics, including shyness, cult behavior and heroism.

480
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,920
He has authored and coauthored numerous books, including some that are widely used in university

481
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:22,920
level psych courses.

482
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,360
I mean, the dude is kind of a genius, but he's, but he's also like a mad scientist.

483
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:29,360
Literally.

484
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,000
In 2002, Dr. Zimbardo was elected president of the American Psychological Association,

485
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000
which is wild.

486
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,920
And because that's the APA, but there's two APAs.

487
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,960
There's the psychological and then the psychiatric.

488
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,880
The psychiatric is the one that writes the DSM.

489
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,240
So it's like very close up there.

490
00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:51,200
After more than 50 years of teaching, Dr. Zimbardo retired from Stanford in 2003, but gave his

491
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,200
last quote to the Florida University.

492
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,760
They didn't fire him after this?

493
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:54,760
No.

494
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:55,760
He still worked there?

495
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:56,760
Yes.

496
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:57,760
Did they ever file a lawsuit?

497
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:58,760
No.

498
00:35:58,760 --> 00:35:59,760
I don't think so.

499
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:00,760
Why not?

500
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:01,760
Because, I don't know.

501
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,960
They were, because they signed consent forms.

502
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:04,960
Literally.

503
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:05,960
Oh, that's horrifying.

504
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,240
Well, I think what it is is that the whole thing is it's not illegal, but it's unethical.

505
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:12,400
It's not illegal, but it's unethical, which is terrible.

506
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,840
That is awful.

507
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,120
But today, he continues to work as the director of the heroic imagination project.

508
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,200
He's still alive?

509
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,360
Oh, lord.

510
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,760
He's 89.

511
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,000
So he is 89 years old.

512
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Holy shit.

513
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,320
And he continues to work as the director of the heroic imagination project, which promotes

514
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,920
research, education, and media initiatives designed to inspire ordinary people to act

515
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,160
as heroes and agents of social change.

516
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,960
He should have acted as a fucking hero when these people were like literally having mental

517
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:43,960
breakdown.

518
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,160
Anyways, that's my mental breakdown.

519
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,160
Yay!

520
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,160
Isn't that crazy?

521
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,160
Bizarre.

522
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:57,080
I'm going to put those names of those movies in the show notes, and then I also put the

523
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,640
websites that I got my research off of just in case anybody wants to go and read more,

524
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,480
because that was really like kind of a short version of like all the little details that

525
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:05,480
happened.

526
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,480
Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot to it.

527
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,760
It's just like, I really wanted to do this and I started researching and I was like, oh

528
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:10,760
my god, this is so good.

529
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:11,760
I need to put this in here.

530
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,280
So, glad that I did that.

531
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,840
And thank you guys for listening and we will be back next week with another case.

532
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,840
I loved that.

533
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:19,840
I thought that was really cool, honestly.

534
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,240
Like, and it might be interesting to do other cases that are kind of similar to that.

535
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:28,160
Like where you talk about, yeah, something like that, who developed it and stuff like

536
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,160
that.

537
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,160
I don't know, no spoilers.

538
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,160
Okay, well we'll talk to you soon.

539
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:32,160
Love you, bye!

540
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:41,440
Bye, bye!