Hello! Hello! I am Kenna. I am Koelle. And welcome back to Diagnosing a Killer!
I'm going to do something a little different. I think that we were on our hiatus and I
think that I had a lot of time to think about what I wanted to do when I was back and forth
with a bunch of different topics. But I landed on a really, really interesting topic that
I've learned about in multiple of my different psychology courses. I'm sure you know about
it. Listeners, you probably know about it as well. But I think it's just really interesting
to kind of break down. That being said, this is a mental breakdown. It's not a full episode,
so it's going to be kind of concise, but I'm going to try to be also kind of detailed
in my description. So we are going to be talking about the Stanford Prison Experiment.
Yes! Oh my God! I know! Okay, alright. It's so wild. Okay, and again, this will be a short
excerpt of what the whole thing entailed. There is numerous documentaries on this. I'm
going to name them at the end. There's numerous books you can watch. Watch! There's numerous
books you can watch at the high walls. I like to watch books because I don't know how to
read. Documentaries, all that good stuff. So I will mention that at the end. But if you
don't know about the Stanford Prison Experiment, strap in. This is how we're going to start.
In the beginning of August, it is 1971. An ad was published in the Stanford Daily reading,
quote,
Male college students needed to participate in psychological study of prison life. $15
per day for one to two weeks beginning August 14th. For further information and applications,
come to room 248 Jordan Hall, Stanford University. $15 a day? Yeah. This was 71. Let's look
up the conversion rate. I want to know. I still think that's only like $30 even if it's
doubled. It's not that much money. $71 a day. Okay, so it roughly translates to $205 a day
today. Is 1971 that long ago? It was like 50 years ago. I guess so. 51 years ago actually.
Oh, God. So we see this ad in the paper. This was seemingly normal, especially around this
time considering the year. Especially like I'm a college student, make a little extra
money. The fact that this was published in the school newspaper, no one thought anything
of it except for, oh, maybe it's some kids trying to get some credit. It was published
from one of the professors. It can't be anything crazy. Yeah. What the 75 plus applicants and
the eventual 24 participants did not realize was that the man that was hosting the experiment,
Professor Philip Zimbardo was going to change their mentalities, lives and well-being permanently.
Dun, dun, dun. I had to set up like that because I feel cool. So I'm going to talk about professors
Zimbardo just a little bit and then we'll get into the experiment. And experience. And
experience. So Philip Zimbardo was born on March 23, 1933 in New York City. For the sake
of brevity, we're not going to get super deep into his childhood. But when he became of college
age, he attended Brooklyn College where he earned a bachelor's of arts in 1954, triple
majoring in psychology, sociology and anthropology. Damn, right? I have a psychology degree and
a sociology minor, but not a double degree. That's crazy. It's so much work. And he's
probably in school for an extra two years just doing that. Yeah. He then went on to
earn his master's of science and his PhD in 1959 from Yale, both in psychology. Wow. So
he knows a lot about psychology. Once he received his degrees and was done with school for good,
he used his knowledge to begin teaching at Yale, where he was a professor until 1967.
Probably after he taught at Columbia University, but after only a year, he became a faculty
member at Stanford in 1968. So sometime during 1968 and 1970, Zimbardo was cooking up some
thoughts surrounding psychology and specifically the intense impact the human brain can have
on your behavior. Him and his colleagues were extremely interested in the prison system,
and especially in finding out whether the brutality reported among prison guards in
the US was due to the sadistic personalities of the guards or if it had more to do with
the prison environment. The main question being is brutality by guards in prisons dispositional
or situational? So over these years, Dr. Zimbardo came up with the quote unquote perfect experiment
in order to accurately test this question. And therefore the Stanford prison experiment
was put into motion. We're going to get into it now. Now we're going to talk about the
day of the experiment, which already lying because you said it was going to start on
August 14 and it's August 17. Yaliah. Yaliah. Yaliah. On the morning of August 17 1971,
10 college students surrounding the Palo Alto area received visits from local police officers.
Without warning, the men were taken out of their homes and arrested for violating penal
codes 211 and 459, which were for armed robbery and burglary. Did they not know that they
were so they signed up for it and they they sign consent forms whole nine yards. This
was not disclosed to them that this was going to happen. Isn't that illegal? Mm hmm. It's
not necessarily illegal, but it's unethical. These 10 men were searched handcuffed and
forced into the back of genuine police cars. These were the actual police arresting them.
They were then transported to the police station where they were booked, fingerprinted, photographed,
moved to a holding cell and eventually blindfolded. Right? It's like a hazing ritual. It's like
a frat. After waiting four hours, the men were then transferred to the Stanford County
prison, aka the Stanford University Psychology Department. That's where it actually was.
They were in the prison. I love that. Now, if it's not already clear, these men were
voluntarily participating in this study. However, the selection of who was going to be a quote
prisoner and who would be a quote guard was completely random and decided by only a coin
flip. Oh, wow. All of the applicants were given extensive tests, including family history,
psychological problems, medical issues, disabilities, history of crime, drug use, etc. Out of the
75 applicants, the 24 who were believed to be the most fit quote unquote, in relation
to physical and mental maturity and health were chosen to participate. Oh, wow. So it's
like they did extensive psychological tests to make sure you're not already schizophrenic
and then you, you know, going here. Yeah, exactly. So these participants did not know
one another prior to the experiment, and they were told very little about what they were
going to be doing during the experiment, mostly because Dr. Zimbardo didn't know himself.
Yeah. He was going to leave it to them to fucking figure it out. It's terrifying. So
there wasn't like a write up of some kind that was like, this is what we're going to
do and this is how I'll get into that later on once I'm done with the story because it'll
explain a little bit more about that. All 24 participants were evenly divided into the
roles of prisoner and guards, so 12 and 12. However, before the experiment began, three
of the participants declined to move forward, leaving 10 prisoners and 11 guards. Okay,
what happened to the, the, they just said that they didn't want to do it. I think one
of them was like, no. And then the other two, it said something. I tried to look it up and
it didn't, it was like on reserve or something. So I don't know if they gave them another
test and they decided maybe these people aren't the right fit or they were like on the fence
and so they were like, you know, it just sit out. But they didn't, it didn't say that they
declined the, you know what I mean, to participate. It was kind of odd and I tried to look it
up but it didn't make sense. Now when the quote prisoner is, this is last time I'm going
to say quote because obviously they're not real prisoners. I want that to be clear, but
I'm not going to say quote every time. When the prisoners arrived, they were stripped,
naked, deloused and had all of their personal belongings taken away from them and locked
in a separate room, very similar to a real prison. They were each given prison clothing
and bedding and issued a uniform. In addition, they were only referred to by their prison
number at this time and moving forward. Oh my God. Dr. Zambardo said the intention behind
referring to the 10 men by ID numbers only was to make them feel anonymous. Right. In
addition to having to be referred to by the numbers, they were only allowed to refer
to themselves by that number as well and to other prisoners. They couldn't even use their
last names or anything. No. So they weren't going to talk. So again, you're just dehumanized.
Yeah. So even when they talked about each other, they could only use their numbers.
The clothes the prisoners wore were smocks with their ID numbers on them, but they had
nothing underneath. They didn't give them any undergarments. They were also required
to wear a tight nylon cap over their heads, kind of like a tight hair net so that their
hair was covered and they each had a locked chain around one ankle. So no identifying
features like their hair would be considered like an identifier. Yeah. I don't know if
you've seen any of the documentaries in the movie or anything, but they recreate this
like really, really well. On the other end of the participants, the guards were dressed
in an identical khaki uniform. Each of them carried a whistle around their necks and what
they called a billy club that are real from the police. So like a baton, the police donated
these batons for the time being for them to actually use. Oh, that's a cool. Sorry.
Zimbardo's a lunatic. Literally. On top of these items, this is wild to me. The guards
were also required to wear sunglasses at all times. Why? To avoid them making eye contact
with any of the prisoners. So they couldn't look at them in the eye and have that connection.
So the prisoners couldn't see their eyes. Well, and the fact that they're all wearing
the same uniform, right? As well is like this immediate separation. Yeah. And authoritative.
Like we're an authoritative team and you guys are, oh God. Isn't that so creepy? That grinds
my gears. So this is how it worked. Three guards at a time worked shifts of eight hours
while the other guards remained on call in a secluded area. So they weren't actually
working but they couldn't leave. Okay. The guards were given very loose rules. Do whatever
you think is necessary to maintain law and order in the prison and command the respect
of the officers. Okay. Physical violence, however, was not permitted. So your goal is
to make them respect you and do whatever you need to do without physical violence to make
them respect you. This is where it gets fucking wild. For Dr. Zimbardo, not only did he observe
the behavior of the prisoners and guards, you know, like the person putting on the experiment
like a psychologist, he also acted as the prison warden. Oh, so he's joining his own experiment
that is so against ethics and that is a huge red flag. No one saw that. He's like, yeah,
I'm going to watch the experiment over. But I'm also going to get like, he's like, all
right, everybody, we're going to play house. All right, you be the mom, you be the dad,
and I'll be the plumber. Seriously? Within a very short time, the prisoners and guards
were settling into their roles just like a real prison would be run with very little
direction, mind you, no one's going in there telling them what to do. They're all said,
here we are, you're the guards, you're the prisoners, make them respect you and then
they left all they had was cameras to watch and they weren't even in the room. What? They
weren't even like the people like the psychologist setting the experiment up were not even in
the room most of the time. That's so weird. So it's literally it's like a it's like a
like a hamster and a maze. Literally so weird. Well, the guards had an especially easy time
moving into their roles. Would you think? Yeah. Within hours of the experiment beginning,
the guards began harassing the prisoners. Around 2 30am on the first night, the prisoners
were awakened by whistles for the first of many counts through the night. According to
the guards, the counts served as a way for the prisoners to memorize their numbers. But
more importantly, it provided the guards with many opportunities to showcase their control
over the prisoners. So what do you mean like they would use their whistles like they they
would wake them up and make them count and tell them their name and make sell them like
hey I'm here or whatever and they did that multiple times a night like a roll call. Yes.
Okay. Okay. To prove pretty much we can do whatever we want to do. You have to listen
to us. Interestingly enough, the prisoners seem to quickly adopt prisoner like behavior
as well. They talked amongst themselves about prison issues quite frequently and even told
on other prisoners to the guards to gain their trust and their privileges. So they started
acting very quickly within the first 24 hours like real prisoners would. So he was like
they're okay. So like they wanted to gain the trust of the of the officer. So they would
like rat other prisoners out. They say he's not listening to or whatever he didn't do
this or he didn't do that to gain that hey I'm on your side like I'm here. Wow. They
began to take the prison rules very seriously and some even began citing with the guards
when other prisoners didn't listen or acted out. Isn't that wild without any direction
or any influence besides the guards? I mean I guess like in your mind like let's be honest
the prisoners get the shit into the stick in this experiment right? But in your mind
you're also like I'm I'm still human like I'm human and you're human and we can identify
as humans like so that's just incredible. Now although violence was not permitted for
the guards there was nothing against the rules when it came to physical punishment. The prisoners
were frequently given pointless and boring tasks to accomplish along with insults and
taunting generally dehumanizing them. Along with this push-ups seemed to be the most
common form of physical punishment imposed by the guards. One guard even going so far
as to step on their backs when they were doing push-ups or having other prisoners sit on
their backs in order to increase the difficulty. And they just did it because this is the whole
experiment this is what Dr. Zimbardo wants to see. Will you respect authority when it's
in there and is it because these guys are assholes or is it because of the situation?
Right. Yeah. Although the first long day passed without any incidents the prisoners were
slowly beginning to have enough. I mean you have to think about the fact that they're
not here because they're in prison they're here voluntarily. They can leave anytime
they want they're only making $15 a day you know how at what point does it not become
worth it? Right. On the second day of the experiment the prisoners decided to fight
back they removed their stocking caps ripped off their numbers and barricaded themselves
inside their individual cells by putting their beds up against the door. What? So no one
could come in. Well they outnumbered the guards because there was only three guards on duty
so they called three more that were on standby. The guards retaliated by using a fire extinguisher
shooting a stream of carbon dioxide into the cells which obviously was cold as shit on
their skin and forced them back against the walls. After the prisoners were at bay the
guards broke into each cell stripped them all naked and took each bed out of the cells
entirely so they don't have clothes or a bed anymore. This sounds like a movie. It sounds
like shushing. Yeah. Like that's... The ringleader of the rebellion the prisoner was placed into
quote solitary which ended up being like a little tiny closet that didn't have you know
air or light or anything. They made their own solitary. They did. Oh god. And the guards
began to harass the rest of the prisoners. On the other end of the riot the prisoners
that did not participate or participated the least were given special privileges including
getting their uniforms and their beds back allowing them to wash their hair and brush
their teeth and on top of this they even got to eat special food in front of the other
prisoners who had temporarily lost the privilege of eating. It's like Popeyes. I don't know
what it was. This was an attempt by the guards of course to break the solidarity among the
rebellious prisoners. Not only did the riot cause the first consequences but over a few
days the relationship between the guards and the prisoners began to change of course. Doctors
in Bardot noticed that as the prisoners became more dependent on the guards the guards became
more derisive towards them. As the guards contempt for them grew the prisoners became
even more submissive. That wasn't the opposite. Huh. After the prisoners were submissive enough
the guards became even more assertive and aggressive. You're already listening to me.
Yeah. Why aren't you going to be more rude? Yeah. So I guess they felt like they had
more control or they had more... I don't know. So they're going to keep using it. Yeah.
They demanded even greater obedience from the prisoners and since the prisoners were
so dependent on the guards for every little thing they would continuously find ways to
please them such as telling on other prisoners like they were earlier. This continued through
the second day and into the third. Oh the third day of guard. This is supposed to last
for two weeks and it's only the third day. Oh my god no. This is where the turning point
happens. Less than 36 hours into the experiment prisoner number 8612. I don't know his real
name it wasn't in there. Nobody does. Probably not. You're not the only one. Yeah. He began
experiencing acute emotional disturbance, disorganized thinking, rage, and uncontrollable
crying. What? This makes me just break my heart. So sad. Oh it gets worse. The guards
brought him in front of the other prisoners in an attempt to console him but really embarrassed.
They told him he was weak and they offered him quote informant status. I guess that
means he would have an easier time than the others. Maybe he would be on his own but still
in the experiment. I'm not really sure what that meant. Well they're making up their own
rules at this point. Exactly. But he didn't really get that far so it's fine. Number
8612 was noted as returning to the other prisoners and telling them you can't leave,
you can't quit. Which is very odd. Yeah. He's being embarrassed in front of everyone. Offered,
he's being offered to leave and he's telling the other guys don't break like you can't
leave. Soon after this, according to Dr. Zimbardo, number 8612 began to act quote crazy. Great
word for my psychologist and my friend. Right. And began to scream, curse, and went into a
rage that seemed out of control. It wasn't until this point that Dr. Zimbardo and the
other psychologists running the experiment realized they should probably let him out.
Yeah. Yeah. Before he hurt someone or himself. And then there were nine. They let him go.
Oh wow. Because he had every right to go from the beginning. Yeah. Because he's not actually
in prison. Yeah. I guess you forget. The next day, so this is day four, the guards held
a visiting hour for parents and friends of the inmates. Oh no, that's awful. Well they
began to get worried that when the families saw that the state of the prison they were
in, they would want to take their children out of there because they don't have to be
there. They also don't have to be there. They can very much just walk out. This being the
worry, the guards washed the prisoners, they bathed them, they had them clean and polish
their own cells and they fed them a real big dinner and everyone was happy and they played
music over the intercom to make like everything light and yippie-skippy. This is still at the
school right? Yes. It's not a real jail. Yes. Oh my god. After the visit with parents and
friends, no one really said anything. They were like, oh this is all yippie-skippy, fine
and dandy. So that means the prisoners didn't say anything, at least not anything alarming
enough for the parents to be like, what the fuck? What are you doing here? Isn't that
terrible? Can't you just come home? Seriously. After the visit with parents and friends, a
rumor spread of a mass escape plan by the prisoners. The guards became fearful that they would
lose the prisoners so they enlisted the help of the actual Palo Alto Police Department.
Are you serious? Where the god? Holy shit. They didn't show up. Don't worry. They were
like, we have real things to do. Really? So just go hang out at the college. What do
you do? The guards yet again escalated the level of harassment, forcing the prisoners
to do repetitive tedious work such as clean toilets with their bare hands, which is gross.
At this point, Dr. Zimbardo was just not satisfied with the realism of the study. It wasn't
real enough? No, it wasn't real enough. Or he didn't know how real it was or it could
be. If it could be worse. Did he install an electrocution chair at all? Right. All right,
now you're on death row for breathing. For breathing. He enlisted the help of a Catholic
priest that was actually a prior prison chaplain to evaluate how realistic the prison situation
actually was. The chaplain interviewed each of the prisoners individually in which half
of them introduced them to him by their number. Oh, I hate that. Right. It was later found
out that the priest told the inmates the only way they would get out was with the help of
a lawyer. Oh, that's so messed up. Because he's like, this is fucked. One of the prisoners
that the priest spoke with, number 819, broke down during their conversation and began to
cry hysterically. After this meeting, the psychologist running the study removed the
chain from his foot, took the cap off his head and told him to go and rest in a room
that was adjacent to the prison yard. They told him they would get him some food and
then take him to see a doctor because he was clearly having a crisis. While this was being
arranged, one of the guards got wind about what was happening and lined up all the other
prisoners and had them chant out loud, quote, prisoner number 819 is a bad prisoner. Because
of what prisoner number 819 did, my cell is a mess, Mr. Correctional Officer. Apparently
the guards had tossed each of their cells because of the crying and told the other prisoners
that it was that guy's fault because he was crying and hysterical that their cells were
messed up. This is breaking my brain and I'm just listening to it. Isn't it wild? I mean,
the documentary, I was in tears. It's fake. It's a reenactment. The psychologist quickly
realized that prisoner number 819 could hear the chanting so they went into the room to
check on him where they found him sobbing uncontrollably. They tried to get him to
leave the experiment but he said he could not leave because the others had labeled
him as a bad prisoner. He was afraid to go back. He was afraid to leave the place. Because
he felt like he's a bad prisoner, like he did something that bad and he's actually
a prisoner. He was brainwashed. He thought he was really in prison. In response to this,
Dr. Zimbardo said, quote, listen, you are not number 819. You are, insert his name.
I don't know it. And my name is Dr. Zimbardo. I am a psychologist, not a prison superintendent
and this is not a real prison. This is just an experiment and those are students, not
prisoners, just like you. Let's go. End quote. According to Dr. Zimbardo, the student stopped
crying suddenly, looked up and replied, okay, let's go, as if nothing had been wrong.
Talk about a mental breakdown. Straight up. Like, that is so dissociative for reality.
Like, it's so sad. Do these poor people get counseling afterwards?
Oh, sure. They have to. Unless they be sued.
Now Dr. Zimbardo had originally planned for the experiment to last two weeks, like I said.
But after only six days, it was terminated due to the emotional breakdowns of prisoners
and excessive aggravation of the guards. Oh my gosh.
Another factor of the decision to terminate was when Dr. Christina Maslach was brought
in to conduct interviews with the guards and prisoners and strongly objected when she saw
that the prisoners were being abused by the guards. She was absolutely outraged and she
quoted as saying, quote, it is terrible what you were doing to these boys. It's noted that
out of 50 or more outsiders who had seen the inside of the prison, she is the only one
who ever questioned its morality. What? Who else was going in and out? I mean, the family
and friends. Oh, the family and friends, yeah.
And I'm sure a number of psychologists, that's homies with Dr. Zimbardo, so complete side
note, we just paused for just a second and Koel just looked it up and Dr. Zimbardo got
married to that lady that was outraged. Maslach. A year later. Yeah, Maslach. Maslach.
That's so wild. Like a year later, he was married when the experiment went on. Well,
yeah, but not to her. I know, but that's just like, you know, this is unethical. You can't
do this. Marry me. He's like, what a role play. What a role play. You be the mom, I'll be
dad. Exactly. And he'll be the plumber. So it wasn't until over 30 years later in 2008
that Zimbardo finally noted, quote, it wasn't until much later that I realized how far into
my prison road I was at that point that I was thinking like a prison superintendent rather
than a research psychologist. Who saw that one coming? Who saw that when you put yourself
in the fucking experiment? Who saw that happening? Seriously. According to Zimbardo and his colleagues,
the Stanford Prison Experiment revealed how people will readily conform to the social
rules they are expected to play, especially if the rules are as strongly stereotyped as
those of the prison guards. Because the guards were placed in a position of authority, they
began to act in ways they would not usually behave in their normal lives.
That does sound interesting, you know, that the stereotype plays into that because you're
acting or you feel like you're in this role. And that's just really intense. Or same with
a prisoner. Like he would feel like you're, okay, I have to do what this guy says, because
that's my role as a prisoner or stereotype of a prisoner.
The prison environment was an important factor in creating the guards' brutal behavior because
it was noted that none of the participants who acted as guards showed any sadistic tendencies
before the study, and the finding was therefore supportive of the situational theory rather
than the dispositional one, like we said earlier.
Along with that conclusion, Zimbardo also proposed that two processes can explain the
prisoner's quote final submission. So the first one being D, it's called D individuation.
It says this may explain the behavior of the participants, especially the guards. This
is a state where you become so immersed in the norms of the group that you lose your
sense of identity and personal responsibility. The guards may have been so sadistic because
they did not feel what happened was done to them personally, but rather it was a group
norm. They may have lost their sense of personal identity because of the uniform that they
wore.
So it's not like I'm the one doing this, we are doing this.
Right.
So it's okay.
Yeah, and that is interesting as well, which I guess you can also kind of say for the prisoners,
because they were also someone in a uniform, but they had different names, I guess, like
other numbers.
Yeah, other numbers.
But for the officers, quote unquote, officers, the prison guards, that absolutely is like,
we have a sense of individualism, but we also wear the same uniform.
Yeah.
We have the upper hand because you are lower or you're lower than us, so we still have,
we have free thought, you do not.
Well, that's interesting that you say that because the second process that he said was
called learned helplessness.
He says this could explain the prisoner's submission to the guards. The prisoners learned
that whatever they did had little effect on what happened to them in the mock prison,
the unpredictable decisions of the guards led the prisoners to give up responding entirely.
That is awesome.
Because they always were changing it.
Yeah.
So no matter what I do, I don't know what's going to happen.
I might as well just submit.
That's interesting.
Now after the experiment, Zambardo interviewed the participants.
I don't know how he was allowed to interview them again, but he did.
One of them didn't strangle him to death, literally.
Quote, most of the participants said they had felt involved and committed.
The research had felt real to them.
One guard said, quote, I was surprised at myself.
I made them call each other names and clean the toilets out with their bare hands.
I practically considered the prisoner's cattle, and I kept thinking I had to watch out for
them in case they tried something.
Another guard said, quote, Acting authoritatively can be fun.
Power can be a great pleasure.
And another, quote, During the inspection, I went to sell to to mess up a bed which a
prisoner had just made and he grabbed me, screaming that he had just made it and that
he was not going to let me mess it up.
He grabbed me by the throat and although he was laughing, I was pretty scared.
I lashed out with my stick and hit him on the chin, although not very hard, and when I freed
myself, I became angry.
So it's like, like that's real.
You could have strangled you to death because of this, like experiment, you know?
A surprising thing about the experiment is that most of the guards found it hard to believe
the way they behaved was really as bad as it was.
Many said they did not think they were capable of the things that they did in the experiment.
And of course, everything was on tape, so they were able to watch it back.
The prisoners had similar things, interestingly.
They said that they couldn't believe that they had responded in the submissive, cowering,
dependent way that they had, and they said that they had been assertive types before
the experiment.
When the prisoners were asked about the guards' behavior, they prescribed the three usual
stereotypes that can be found in any prison.
Some guards were good, some guards were tough but fair, and some guards were very cruel.
Another theory that Zimbardo explained could make sense of the experiment is describing
it in terms of reinforcement, as the escalation of the aggression in the guards could be seen
as being due to the positive reinforcement of the prisoners' actions.
I'm gonna get more mad because the more mad I get, the better you do.
Most of the guards later in the interviews claimed that they were simply acting during
the experiment, and the psychologists agreed that because the guards and prisoners were
playing a role, their behavior may not have been influenced by the same factors which
affect behavior in real life.
This being said, this means that the study's findings could not be reasonably generalized
to real life, such as prison settings, and therefore the study has a low validity to
a real life setting.
That does make sense.
It's similar, but it's not 100% this is why it'll happen or this is how it happens.
Like you said, situationally it could be different, but maybe psychologically there is some truth
or balance to that, right, in a weird way.
The fact that this was an experiment means that 90% of the prisoners' private conversations
were still being monitored by the experimenters, so it didn't exactly mimic a real prison
setting, and the guards as well didn't necessarily have time to interact with personal information
during their breaks, and at that time they actually used it to discuss the problematic
prisoners or they simply didn't talk at all.
One last thing I want to talk about before we conclude, and that's the ethical issues
surrounding this experiment.
This experiment has widely been known as one of the most unethical experiments that used
human participants to ever be held.
They received very many criticisms throughout many of the years after the experiment, and
this is still being used today in psychology courses as an example of what not to do.
I probably watched this, like I said, like three or four different classes.
Some of the criticisms include the participants not being fully informed of what was going
to happen.
This is what we talked about earlier in the beginning.
In reality, Dr. Zimbardo himself did not even know what was going to happen.
Also, the prisoners didn't ever consent to being arrested at home.
They were not told, partially because the final approval from the police was not given
until minutes before the participants decided to participate, and partly because Dr. Zimbardo
wanted the arrest to come as a surprise, which is fucked up.
But give your police department a fucking heads up.
Call and say, hey, in case anybody thinks that somebody's being kidnapped or whatever
it is, they probably didn't even know.
They didn't even know.
And what if these guys are like, no, you can't kid me to jail, I'm going to this experiment.
I feel like they don't even know.
No, but if somebody ran and then got real charges.
Seriously.
Or something.
Yeah.
They got shot having been through a bit or something.
You know, like either way, both of these were breaches of the ethics of Dr. Zimbardo's
own contract that the participants all had signed before the experiment.
So they definitely had a case after this was all over.
Oh, of course.
The priest was correct.
It was the chaplain who ratted them all out.
Another breach of contract comes with participants playing the roles of prisoners not being protected
from psychological harm.
Although this experiment was not 100% ethical or even moral, Dr. Zimbardo still stands by
the fact that the benefits gained about our understanding of human behavior and how we
improve society should outbalance the distress caused by the study.
I agree.
There's a lot of stuff we learn from the study, but not at the expense of these people.
Like literally people that, some of these people were under 25.
Like that's ridiculous.
Lab rats.
And also, I was just going to say real quick, there's another experiment.
I'm sure you've heard about it and listeners, you might have heard about it as well.
It's the one, I don't know what it's called.
And it was on here, but I didn't put it in here.
It was the one where the people that were participants were expected, I'm sorry, were
made to believe that they were electrocuting someone on the other side of the door.
You know what I'm talking about?
Yeah.
And it was scary how much they were willing to turn up the electricity thinking they were
hurting someone on the other side of the door.
Just because someone in a lab coat tells them to.
Well, they were saying, well, yeah, you are supposed to zap and then you're supposed to
get zapped, but your zap is never more or less than theirs.
So or the supposed one.
So it's like a hand buzzer, basically.
So they feel like they get jolted and then they want to do it back, but they're not actually
shocking anybody else.
And so it's like, okay, they're going to death levels.
Like death levels.
And they think that they're doing it, you know, and some people just do it for fun, but most
often people do it in retaliation.
Because they think that they're getting zapped or whatever.
So wild.
Now, this study was the acknowledged inspiration for Das Experiment.
There was a 2001 German movie that was remade in the United States as the direct to video
film The Experiment in 2010.
And then there's one called the Stanford Prison Experiment, Cut and Dry 2015, which is the
one that I've seen.
And that was created with Dr. Zimbardo's active participation.
Yeah, I don't know why.
It was me.
I did it.
I was there.
I did it all.
That's the one that you would want to watch if you want more like actual events because
he's in it.
Like he gives you like facts and stuff.
So that's the Stanford Prison Experiment.
I'll put that in the show notes as well.
I love a good documentary.
It's really good.
But it's a reenactment.
It's not a documentary.
Like it's a, it doesn't, it's like a movie.
Like it doesn't, oh, that's not a narrator.
Well, maybe it's not a documentary.
I don't know.
It would be like a, like autobiographical or something.
Yeah.
Now, since the famous prison experiment, Zimbardo has continued to conduct research on a variety
of topics, including shyness, cult behavior and heroism.
He has authored and coauthored numerous books, including some that are widely used in university
level psych courses.
I mean, the dude is kind of a genius, but he's, but he's also like a mad scientist.
Literally.
In 2002, Dr. Zimbardo was elected president of the American Psychological Association,
which is wild.
And because that's the APA, but there's two APAs.
There's the psychological and then the psychiatric.
The psychiatric is the one that writes the DSM.
So it's like very close up there.
After more than 50 years of teaching, Dr. Zimbardo retired from Stanford in 2003, but gave his
last quote to the Florida University.
They didn't fire him after this?
No.
He still worked there?
Yes.
Did they ever file a lawsuit?
No.
I don't think so.
Why not?
Because, I don't know.
They were, because they signed consent forms.
Literally.
Oh, that's horrifying.
Well, I think what it is is that the whole thing is it's not illegal, but it's unethical.
It's not illegal, but it's unethical, which is terrible.
That is awful.
But today, he continues to work as the director of the heroic imagination project.
He's still alive?
Oh, lord.
He's 89.
So he is 89 years old.
Holy shit.
And he continues to work as the director of the heroic imagination project, which promotes
research, education, and media initiatives designed to inspire ordinary people to act
as heroes and agents of social change.
He should have acted as a fucking hero when these people were like literally having mental
breakdown.
Anyways, that's my mental breakdown.
Yay!
Isn't that crazy?
Bizarre.
I'm going to put those names of those movies in the show notes, and then I also put the
websites that I got my research off of just in case anybody wants to go and read more,
because that was really like kind of a short version of like all the little details that
happened.
Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot to it.
It's just like, I really wanted to do this and I started researching and I was like, oh
my god, this is so good.
I need to put this in here.
So, glad that I did that.
And thank you guys for listening and we will be back next week with another case.
I loved that.
I thought that was really cool, honestly.
Like, and it might be interesting to do other cases that are kind of similar to that.
Like where you talk about, yeah, something like that, who developed it and stuff like
that.
I don't know, no spoilers.
Okay, well we'll talk to you soon.
Love you, bye!
Bye, bye!