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to be boring.

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Well it's not gonna be boring.

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Hello!

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Welcome back to diagnosing a killer, the mental breakdown.

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Mental breakdown.

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I'm Koelle.

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And I'm Kenna.

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That's our normal lives.

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This is the prayer.

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Barfing and clearing our throat all the fucking time.

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This is the prayer.

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Alrighty, so coming off of the last episode, I think it was kind of interesting because

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with George Banks, we did talk about the criminalization and the legal system that all went into the

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end of his case, which was pretty incredible.

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So my topic is about the criminalization of mental illness.

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What?

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Yes.

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It's kind of weird how we do that because if you're new here, we don't tell each other

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what we're doing, case-wise or mental breakdown-wise.

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So I feel like it kind of like layers together sometimes and it relates.

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It's funny that we have telepathy.

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It's true.

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It's kind of funny when you start doing your case and I'm like, that's what my mental

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breakdown is about for a vice versa.

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Same thing.

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I'll be like, I'll not be thinking about you or thinking about something and you'll

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fucking call me or text me and I'm like, what the hell?

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Get out of my brain.

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Having a mental illness, feeling suicidal and having a substance abuse disorder is not

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a crime.

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So why do we call 911 when we are concerned about someone's mental health?

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Interesting.

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Isn't it?

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Yeah.

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Why do we call 911?

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Police intervention is not healthcare yet police officers have often become the frontline

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for mental health crises that we are experiencing as a nation.

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That's very true.

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So why?

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Why is that?

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I feel like police officers often get blamed for not having enough psychology background

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or mental health awareness or background or whatever.

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They don't get trained properly in that quote unquote.

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But it's because that's not what, I mean, yes, of course they're here to help us with

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that, but that's not who should be the forward facing man to help.

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We're totally going to talk about that.

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So they really can't do much about it, honestly, except continue a cycle of criminalization

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of mental health sufferers or in a lot of cases use force and violence that can be extreme.

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So on an average, a mental health sufferer is 16 times more likely to be killed in an

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altercation with police than someone who has access to treatment to such disorders.

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So even if they have the mental disorder, if they have access to the treatment, they're

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16 times less likely to be in an altercation with police, that'll end in violence or death.

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I saw they're really gross.

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Ew, I believe you that in there's a yelkin.

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You're a blast.

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You're a blast.

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Sounds like the new Metallica song.

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Professional psychiatrists, especially these kinds of scenes are the only answer when it

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comes to these kinds of calls.

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Unless it's Sunday.

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Yeah, because of poor Alex.

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Yeah, seriously.

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They actually have over 900 hours of experience by the time that they're acquiring their

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master's degrees.

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Yeah.

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900 hours of experience.

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So a trained police officer, again, that might have some training in psychiatric care, they

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usually only have a total of about six hours of training.

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So 900 if you have, again, a master's in psychiatry, but six hours for a trained officer.

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Sure.

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Speaking, think about it this way, would you rather have a pilot that had six hours of

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training or 900 hours of training?

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Exactly.

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Probably the 900.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Same thing with writing in a car.

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I've only been driving for six whole hours.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Okay, I'm not getting the fucking car with you.

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Yes.

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Yeah, that's incredible to think about that.

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So although a police officer may be able to assess the situation a fair way, it doesn't

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take place of actual treatment for care with individuals that are suffering with mental

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health crises, especially for long term.

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Police officers have actually, since day one of their training, told to respond to threats.

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They're trained to use force like pepper spray, tasers, and guns to protect themselves.

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That is, it is completely integrated into them that in almost every situation they walk

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into is a threatening one.

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Yes.

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That's what they're trained for.

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You have to be on guard with that when you're a police officer, unfortunately.

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Yeah.

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So I mean, but could you imagine walking into a psychiatrist's office and literally all

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a psychiatrist has been trained to do is be combative or feel like they're being threatened?

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Yeah.

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Do you think that you would get any help?

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No.

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Probably not.

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Definitely not.

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Yeah, probably not.

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So we've all seen videos.

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Situations like this can escalate very quickly.

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Shouting and chaos is often a part of these interactions.

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And if you're on the schizophrenic spectrum, for example, can you imagine how that must

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feel?

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Oh, it's terrifying.

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That is absolutely terrifying.

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You don't know what's going on.

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All of those thoughts and invasive thoughts that you've had at your head about being paranoid

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or any of that other stuff, and it's manifesting in front of you, could you imagine?

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Your brain would want to shut down.

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You don't know what to do.

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You are in survival mode.

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So that up against an entire fleet of officers that have guns, not going to end well.

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I saw this one video the other day on TikTok now that you brought that up, this young man

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that was very clearly suicidal, and the cops, while they were trying to talk him down, had

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their guns drawn and not blaming them at all.

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That's what they're trying to do.

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And unfortunately, it ended with the person being killed by these officers because he

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pulled out what could have been presumed to be a weapon out of his pocket and pointed

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it towards them.

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And I mean, what are you trying to do?

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You're also trained to save your own life.

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If it's me or you, it's you.

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Well, I mean, that's the thing is that you now have two individuals that both think that

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their lives are at risk.

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Because you don't know how to react and you don't know what's happening to you.

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But neither does that officer.

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I mean, that's the reality of it.

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It's really unfair.

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So officers, again, are trained over and over again to consider each call that has the potential

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to be dangerous.

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They think that each call might hold a dangerous situation.

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In these cases, I feel like it lacks compassion and understanding that needs to occur in order

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to accurately assess a situation.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Because the only thing that they're trained to do is have kind of a knee jerk reaction

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type response.

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And this is even when mental health crises are happening.

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I feel like even the officers and or any law enforcement that is trained to do the negotiation

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is still not as qualified as, I mean, they're not as qualified as a psychiatrist that has

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a doctorate degree or even a master's degree.

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You know, you might be trained in negotiation, but that doesn't mean that you're trained

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in mental health.

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Right, exactly.

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But my whole point in starting with that when we talk about police officers is because,

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again, not only are they the front line for some mental health crises situations, it's

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also the beginning of the criminalized system that will happen.

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So a criminalized cycle may look something like this.

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I for whatever reason, beyond my control due to my mental illness or a brain injury, perhaps

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leads me to living on the streets, right?

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Like I cannot maintain a job.

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I'm living on the streets.

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So I am then arrested, maybe for trespassing, disorderly conduct, maybe littering.

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Most oftentimes it's for things like public urination where you do not have a bathroom

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to go to.

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So again, I am arrested.

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My position probably comes from not having any type of care again, you know, and that's

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what led me to develop a condition.

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I might not even have support or resources any longer.

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Say I moved and I went to a different city and I am, you know, not speaking with my family

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or anything like that, right?

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So all this stuff happens.

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I'm arrested.

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So now due to my mental state and lack of access to treatment, I'm probably not able

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to participate in my own defense, right?

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Which is something that we talked about with the George Banks case.

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So I can't participate in my own defense and it's a legal term which is called aid and

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assist in my own defense.

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I'm probably not even understanding of the charges.

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Alexander ran well, same thing.

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So in the case that I am found that I cannot participate in my own defense, I am then put

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into a holding cell for a few weeks, maybe a month, maybe months at a time, until I can

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be evaluated.

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So now I, again, you're incompetent, disdain, trial, you must go into the holding cell until

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we can find someone to evaluate you, right?

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Unless it's Sunday.

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Unless it's Sunday, yeah, because, you know, yeah, mental health tips Sunday.

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So this is taking a while.

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And again, I am being monitored probably, but I'm still not receiving any treatment because

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they haven't evaluated me to see if I actually need treatment.

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So if I am receiving treatment, I am probably being charged for it, not gonna lie.

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America.

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Yeah.

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I'm getting insurance, you know, of course, which is likely because I'm a transient person.

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So I'm then evaluated after some time.

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I am then sent to a hospital for treatment, again, for months and sometimes even years.

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And again, I have yet to go through that criminal system.

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So finally, I'm getting the basic health care that I should have been receiving from the

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beginning.

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And again, I don't have insurance.

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So how long does that actually last?

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Yeah.

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They usually are just like band-aids.

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They'll get you good on some meds for a while.

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You seem like you're competent enough.

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Now we're gonna go to trial.

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So then we go to trial and then I'm either found guilty or charged or whatever, probably

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fined at least for something like littering, loitering, public urination, whatever, something

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I can't afford.

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I couldn't even afford health care.

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So now I'm back on the streets.

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So I'm back on the streets quitting my mental illness.

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Returning my medication, cold turkey, because I don't have access to health care.

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So what do you think happens when I repeat this process over and over again?

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How long do you think my record is?

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How do you think I'm gonna get a job?

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How do you think I'm gonna afford these fines?

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It's a constant cycle.

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So it can only happen once.

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If it happens once, it's gonna happen again.

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Then I have a warrant out for my arrest because I couldn't pay my fine.

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I'm still living on the streets.

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I don't have access to any medication that I need.

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It's just a giant cycle over and over and over again.

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No, yeah.

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I think that I mean, that's, I'll be completely honest, like listening to you even going through

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that, I'm like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but there's not a yeah, but it's like it's

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very true and it's not something that you can just see and just know.

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You have to really break it down and understand how all of that works and how easy it is for

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that to happen.

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And it's very unfortunate.

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I mean, I am a really strong believer in the fact that everybody should have access to

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healthcare, especially mental healthcare for free.

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Yes.

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Why we don't?

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For more people to make more money?

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I don't know, but that's, I mean, it's honestly just baffling like I'm at a loss.

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I appreciate the fact that you brought up money because I do have one statistic here.

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It is from the Oregon State Hospital located in Salem, Oregon.

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For one year's worth of treatment, it is $240,000 a year.

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For mental health treatment?

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For mental health treatment at the State of Oregon Hospital in Salem, Oregon.

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I don't think I've ever even seen that much money in my life.

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Right.

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It's actually more than half of the overall budget allotted to the entire state to assist

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people struggling with mental issues.

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Oh my God, that's ridiculous.

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So if I could afford that $240,000 a year.

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You could stop mental illness.

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I'm just saying if I could afford that, that's more than half of the state's budget for all

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people to be able to use these quote unquote resources.

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It's so ridiculous.

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So the average person again who needs this treatment is expected to pay this and it's

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ridiculous.

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It basically means that two people could access that type of care for one year for this overall

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state's budget.

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If they were to qualify to pay for nothing.

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Only two people.

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Yeah, it's costly and it isn't working.

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So people need a chance to be able to get on their feet and access to mental care can

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help people with basic needs like housing or job opportunities.

254
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That's like the two most requested things that you could ever want.

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Like a job opportunity in order to make some money and a roof over their heads.

256
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And it does wonders for people that are actually suffering with mental illnesses.

257
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Yeah.

258
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Well, I think one of the big stigmas when it comes to transient people, especially ones

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that are suffering from mental illness is that you have a bunch of people that lean towards

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the side of well, they don't want to get help.

261
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Well they don't.

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It's not that they don't want to get help.

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It's that they don't understand.

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Sometimes they don't even understand that they need help.

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Or it's not that they don't want to get help, but they've tried and been shut down at every

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fucking turn.

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Yeah.

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So like go to the emergency room or it's Sunday.

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Andrey Thomas and Alexander Lewis, like if you haven't listened to those two cases, please

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go back and listen because that'll show you how skewed the system is.

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Yeah.

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A breakdown in the system.

273
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For sure.

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So again, redirecting money into actual programs that support the community for the long term

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instead of state governed hospitals that only treat symptoms of mental illness.

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And of course they just, it's like catch and release.

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It's like once you're fixed, you're out the door.

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No, yeah.

279
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And that's what I said.

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Yeah.

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That's what I think about when there's like a suicide, like a self-harm hold or you know,

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72 hours.

283
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Oh, you'll be, yep, you'll be skipping after 72 hours.

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All you need is some rest.

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And morphine.

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Like, no, but seriously, it's like, that sounds silly, but it's, okay, you just sit here until

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you no longer feel like shit.

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And then once you don't feel like shit, there you go.

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It's not my problem anymore.

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If you have, if you're suffering from a bipolar disorder, type one or type two, especially

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type one, you don't feel like shit that often.

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You feel like shit for a few days and then you're back on your feet again.

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A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that when somebody that is suffering with

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bipolar disorder, again, type one or two is happy, then they're fixed, they're cured.

295
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No, that's actually a symptom of it.

296
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And especially in type one, that's the most, that's the biggest symptom of it.

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So it's just like, yes, okay, you can go through all the schooling that you want to become

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a, you know, get your doctorate, but I strongly believe that everybody should have at least

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internal psychology, even abnormal psychology.

300
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I think I learned the most in abnormal psychology than any other class that I took in college.

301
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That class.

302
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:07,760
I like social psychology, but that's just me.

303
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Yeah, I like to people watch.

304
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But the diagnoses though, you know what I mean?

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If you are a nurse and you have taken one abnormal psychology course, you are, you know more than

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a lot of people that are in the medical, then I'm not trying to be harsh by saying that.

307
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They know a lot, but just not about mental illness.

308
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Yes.

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And that can truly save somebody's life.

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If somebody comes in on a 72 hour hold, you can evaluate at least speculate on what they

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may be suffering from.

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That's, it's an outlet to help somebody.

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If they're even suffering.

314
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:38,920
Exactly.

315
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,920
And like you say, like, I don't know exactly what this is, but it is abnormal.

316
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,920
Yes, exactly.

317
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,320
In 44 states, jails and prisons hold more mentally ill people than actual psychiatric

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state hospitals.

319
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Of course they do.

320
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That's so sad.

321
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Well, America is the most, the highest incarceration rate of any country.

322
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Yeah.

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And in 44 states, they're more likely to have a mental illness than they are not.

324
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,160
And actually it's majority of people that are in prison in America today, like the highest

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00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,280
percent is mental illness and drug charges.

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00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:16,200
And statistically people who suffer from mental illnesses are actually more likely to become

327
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,840
a victim of violence than to have violent tendencies.

328
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,760
Which is also very sad.

329
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,800
So again, we just need to refocus our attention.

330
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:25,800
That's what I think.

331
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Spread the money and especially awareness into communities in order to actually help

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00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:30,360
people.

333
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:36,560
Honestly, the criminalization of mental health is, it's irresponsible, like in my opinion,

334
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,640
when it's something that can be prevented just by doing some either personal research

335
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:46,760
or like having that resource out there, even if you're not the one that's suffering with

336
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,840
mental illness, at least have that resource out there for people who want to help people

337
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:51,840
with mental illness.

338
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,440
Like just overall awareness can help like a lot.

339
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,720
Yeah, that's really compelling even.

340
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:04,400
I mean, it's, it's, when you put it all together and you lay it all out like that, like it's

341
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,400
just baffling.

342
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,400
It is.

343
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,400
Like it really is.

344
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,640
It makes my stomach hurt.

345
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,040
Again, like I said at the very beginning, you know, having a mental illness is not a

346
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,040
crime.

347
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:15,040
Why do we call 911?

348
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:16,040
Yeah.

349
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:24,560
Police officers are only trained to see threats.

350
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,560
Yeah.

351
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:26,560
That's it.

352
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,680
And I understand that a lot of police officers want to do good in their communities, but

353
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:37,280
how do you walk into a situation that is occurring with someone who is suffering from a mental

354
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:38,920
illness with your dukes up?

355
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:40,240
Like, how do you do that?

356
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:41,240
You know?

357
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:42,240
That's what they're trying to do.

358
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:43,240
Yeah.

359
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,800
That's what there should be another, I mean, there is, but it should be widely known that

360
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,560
there's another resource to call if someone is having a mental health crisis.

361
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:56,200
And those people can come out and actually assist the person in crisis rather than question

362
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:02,840
or try to, you know, or make quick second decisions, like in that moment.

363
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,320
So there is a couple of numbers that I'd like to mention just in case you are in a find

364
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,120
yourself in a situation where somebody is having a mental health crisis.

365
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,220
I think these numbers are national.

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00:18:13,220 --> 00:18:20,840
So there's one avoid a mental health crisis at 844-274-6154.

367
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:28,520
And there's also a 2417 crisis line at 800-989-6884.

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00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,480
If you ever find yourself in a situation where you're in a crisis or somebody that you know

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00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,000
is in a crisis, I highly believe that those numbers will be more helpful than calling

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00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:38,000
911.

371
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,000
Absolutely.

372
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,280
So yeah, I mean, definitely use your resources.

373
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,880
I just, that was a quick Google search and I found that, just use your resources.

374
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:50,440
If you have them, I mean, it's a privilege to have those, you know, and don't ever take

375
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,320
for granted if you have, you know, mental health care or, because some people don't,

376
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:56,440
some people don't have access to that.

377
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,480
And unfortunately, it ruins their life.

378
00:18:58,480 --> 00:18:59,480
Yeah.

379
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,960
And if you can, like, bounce something off of a neighbor or a friend or a family member,

380
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:05,360
you know, and say like, is this normal?

381
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,840
Because a lot of times, like, we're, we always want to be the star in our own movie all the

382
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:10,840
time.

383
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:16,840
Like, we live our lives and we have all these, you know, things that we just assume are normal.

384
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,640
But maybe if you feel like something is a little abnormal, share.

385
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,920
And yeah, go from there.

386
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,080
Don't be quiet about it.

387
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,080
Talk to people.

388
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,480
People will, people are more willing to listen than you think they are.

389
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,400
I feel like I'm annoying people all the time too.

390
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,400
Have you seen that?

391
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,400
Hey, uh, juice based.

392
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,120
Have you seen that awkward silence campaign?

393
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:35,120
No.

394
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:36,640
Oh, it's cracking me up right now.

395
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,800
Because, well, I saw Markiplier was in it.

396
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,720
So I was like, Markiplier.

397
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:46,480
And it's like, uh, that it's like, sees the awkward, I think is what it's called.

398
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:51,720
And it's that awkward moment right before you're like, so is everything okay with you?

399
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,240
And so it's like a lot of like YouTube influencers that are like standing there and they're like,

400
00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:58,240
mmm.

401
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,240
And then like, cause the next person is like, oh, it's like awkward.

402
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,920
But it's like, you know, once you get the, once you open up that gate, you know, rip

403
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,920
the bandaid, have a conversation.

404
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:16,200
I was already, we do put a, the National Suicide Hotline and the Trevor Project line in our

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00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,880
show notes on every episode.

406
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,680
So if you ever need access to those numbers, they're right there in the show notes.

407
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,560
While you are waiting for a new episode, you can follow us on Instagram at diagnosing a

408
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:26,560
killer.

409
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:31,480
We do have Twitter at killer diagnosis, diagnosing a killer at gmail.com.

410
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,440
And we got a new Patreon this week.

411
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:39,000
And you can donate to the Patreon if you'd like, patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer.

412
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,000
Anything else?

413
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,000
No.

414
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,000
Okay.

415
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,000
Stay healthy, stay great, stay beautiful.

416
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,000
Alright.

417
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,000
Love you.

418
00:20:45,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Bye.