to be boring.
Well it's not gonna be boring.
Hello!
Welcome back to diagnosing a killer, the mental breakdown.
Mental breakdown.
I'm Koelle.
And I'm Kenna.
That's our normal lives.
This is the prayer.
Barfing and clearing our throat all the fucking time.
This is the prayer.
Alrighty, so coming off of the last episode, I think it was kind of interesting because
with George Banks, we did talk about the criminalization and the legal system that all went into the
end of his case, which was pretty incredible.
So my topic is about the criminalization of mental illness.
What?
Yes.
It's kind of weird how we do that because if you're new here, we don't tell each other
what we're doing, case-wise or mental breakdown-wise.
So I feel like it kind of like layers together sometimes and it relates.
It's funny that we have telepathy.
It's true.
It's kind of funny when you start doing your case and I'm like, that's what my mental
breakdown is about for a vice versa.
Same thing.
I'll be like, I'll not be thinking about you or thinking about something and you'll
fucking call me or text me and I'm like, what the hell?
Get out of my brain.
Having a mental illness, feeling suicidal and having a substance abuse disorder is not
a crime.
So why do we call 911 when we are concerned about someone's mental health?
Interesting.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
Why do we call 911?
Police intervention is not healthcare yet police officers have often become the frontline
for mental health crises that we are experiencing as a nation.
That's very true.
So why?
Why is that?
I feel like police officers often get blamed for not having enough psychology background
or mental health awareness or background or whatever.
They don't get trained properly in that quote unquote.
But it's because that's not what, I mean, yes, of course they're here to help us with
that, but that's not who should be the forward facing man to help.
We're totally going to talk about that.
So they really can't do much about it, honestly, except continue a cycle of criminalization
of mental health sufferers or in a lot of cases use force and violence that can be extreme.
So on an average, a mental health sufferer is 16 times more likely to be killed in an
altercation with police than someone who has access to treatment to such disorders.
So even if they have the mental disorder, if they have access to the treatment, they're
16 times less likely to be in an altercation with police, that'll end in violence or death.
I saw they're really gross.
Ew, I believe you that in there's a yelkin.
You're a blast.
Sounds like the new Metallica song.
Professional psychiatrists, especially these kinds of scenes are the only answer when it
comes to these kinds of calls.
Unless it's Sunday.
Yeah, because of poor Alex.
Yeah, seriously.
They actually have over 900 hours of experience by the time that they're acquiring their
master's degrees.
Yeah.
900 hours of experience.
So a trained police officer, again, that might have some training in psychiatric care, they
usually only have a total of about six hours of training.
So 900 if you have, again, a master's in psychiatry, but six hours for a trained officer.
Sure.
Speaking, think about it this way, would you rather have a pilot that had six hours of
training or 900 hours of training?
Exactly.
Probably the 900.
Yeah, exactly.
Same thing with writing in a car.
I've only been driving for six whole hours.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, I'm not getting the fucking car with you.
Yes.
Yeah, that's incredible to think about that.
So although a police officer may be able to assess the situation a fair way, it doesn't
take place of actual treatment for care with individuals that are suffering with mental
health crises, especially for long term.
Police officers have actually, since day one of their training, told to respond to threats.
They're trained to use force like pepper spray, tasers, and guns to protect themselves.
That is, it is completely integrated into them that in almost every situation they walk
into is a threatening one.
Yes.
That's what they're trained for.
You have to be on guard with that when you're a police officer, unfortunately.
Yeah.
So I mean, but could you imagine walking into a psychiatrist's office and literally all
a psychiatrist has been trained to do is be combative or feel like they're being threatened?
Yeah.
Do you think that you would get any help?
No.
Probably not.
Definitely not.
Yeah, probably not.
So we've all seen videos.
Situations like this can escalate very quickly.
Shouting and chaos is often a part of these interactions.
And if you're on the schizophrenic spectrum, for example, can you imagine how that must
feel?
Oh, it's terrifying.
That is absolutely terrifying.
You don't know what's going on.
All of those thoughts and invasive thoughts that you've had at your head about being paranoid
or any of that other stuff, and it's manifesting in front of you, could you imagine?
Your brain would want to shut down.
You don't know what to do.
You are in survival mode.
So that up against an entire fleet of officers that have guns, not going to end well.
I saw this one video the other day on TikTok now that you brought that up, this young man
that was very clearly suicidal, and the cops, while they were trying to talk him down, had
their guns drawn and not blaming them at all.
That's what they're trying to do.
And unfortunately, it ended with the person being killed by these officers because he
pulled out what could have been presumed to be a weapon out of his pocket and pointed
it towards them.
And I mean, what are you trying to do?
You're also trained to save your own life.
If it's me or you, it's you.
Well, I mean, that's the thing is that you now have two individuals that both think that
their lives are at risk.
Because you don't know how to react and you don't know what's happening to you.
But neither does that officer.
I mean, that's the reality of it.
It's really unfair.
So officers, again, are trained over and over again to consider each call that has the potential
to be dangerous.
They think that each call might hold a dangerous situation.
In these cases, I feel like it lacks compassion and understanding that needs to occur in order
to accurately assess a situation.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Because the only thing that they're trained to do is have kind of a knee jerk reaction
type response.
And this is even when mental health crises are happening.
I feel like even the officers and or any law enforcement that is trained to do the negotiation
is still not as qualified as, I mean, they're not as qualified as a psychiatrist that has
a doctorate degree or even a master's degree.
You know, you might be trained in negotiation, but that doesn't mean that you're trained
in mental health.
Right, exactly.
But my whole point in starting with that when we talk about police officers is because,
again, not only are they the front line for some mental health crises situations, it's
also the beginning of the criminalized system that will happen.
So a criminalized cycle may look something like this.
I for whatever reason, beyond my control due to my mental illness or a brain injury, perhaps
leads me to living on the streets, right?
Like I cannot maintain a job.
I'm living on the streets.
So I am then arrested, maybe for trespassing, disorderly conduct, maybe littering.
Most oftentimes it's for things like public urination where you do not have a bathroom
to go to.
So again, I am arrested.
My position probably comes from not having any type of care again, you know, and that's
what led me to develop a condition.
I might not even have support or resources any longer.
Say I moved and I went to a different city and I am, you know, not speaking with my family
or anything like that, right?
So all this stuff happens.
I'm arrested.
So now due to my mental state and lack of access to treatment, I'm probably not able
to participate in my own defense, right?
Which is something that we talked about with the George Banks case.
So I can't participate in my own defense and it's a legal term which is called aid and
assist in my own defense.
I'm probably not even understanding of the charges.
Alexander ran well, same thing.
So in the case that I am found that I cannot participate in my own defense, I am then put
into a holding cell for a few weeks, maybe a month, maybe months at a time, until I can
be evaluated.
So now I, again, you're incompetent, disdain, trial, you must go into the holding cell until
we can find someone to evaluate you, right?
Unless it's Sunday.
Unless it's Sunday, yeah, because, you know, yeah, mental health tips Sunday.
So this is taking a while.
And again, I am being monitored probably, but I'm still not receiving any treatment because
they haven't evaluated me to see if I actually need treatment.
So if I am receiving treatment, I am probably being charged for it, not gonna lie.
America.
Yeah.
I'm getting insurance, you know, of course, which is likely because I'm a transient person.
So I'm then evaluated after some time.
I am then sent to a hospital for treatment, again, for months and sometimes even years.
And again, I have yet to go through that criminal system.
So finally, I'm getting the basic health care that I should have been receiving from the
beginning.
And again, I don't have insurance.
So how long does that actually last?
Yeah.
They usually are just like band-aids.
They'll get you good on some meds for a while.
You seem like you're competent enough.
Now we're gonna go to trial.
So then we go to trial and then I'm either found guilty or charged or whatever, probably
fined at least for something like littering, loitering, public urination, whatever, something
I can't afford.
I couldn't even afford health care.
So now I'm back on the streets.
So I'm back on the streets quitting my mental illness.
Returning my medication, cold turkey, because I don't have access to health care.
So what do you think happens when I repeat this process over and over again?
How long do you think my record is?
How do you think I'm gonna get a job?
How do you think I'm gonna afford these fines?
It's a constant cycle.
So it can only happen once.
If it happens once, it's gonna happen again.
Then I have a warrant out for my arrest because I couldn't pay my fine.
I'm still living on the streets.
I don't have access to any medication that I need.
It's just a giant cycle over and over and over again.
No, yeah.
I think that I mean, that's, I'll be completely honest, like listening to you even going through
that, I'm like, yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but there's not a yeah, but it's like it's
very true and it's not something that you can just see and just know.
You have to really break it down and understand how all of that works and how easy it is for
that to happen.
And it's very unfortunate.
I mean, I am a really strong believer in the fact that everybody should have access to
healthcare, especially mental healthcare for free.
Yes.
Why we don't?
For more people to make more money?
I don't know, but that's, I mean, it's honestly just baffling like I'm at a loss.
I appreciate the fact that you brought up money because I do have one statistic here.
It is from the Oregon State Hospital located in Salem, Oregon.
For one year's worth of treatment, it is $240,000 a year.
For mental health treatment?
For mental health treatment at the State of Oregon Hospital in Salem, Oregon.
I don't think I've ever even seen that much money in my life.
Right.
It's actually more than half of the overall budget allotted to the entire state to assist
people struggling with mental issues.
Oh my God, that's ridiculous.
So if I could afford that $240,000 a year.
You could stop mental illness.
I'm just saying if I could afford that, that's more than half of the state's budget for all
people to be able to use these quote unquote resources.
It's so ridiculous.
So the average person again who needs this treatment is expected to pay this and it's
ridiculous.
It basically means that two people could access that type of care for one year for this overall
state's budget.
If they were to qualify to pay for nothing.
Only two people.
Yeah, it's costly and it isn't working.
So people need a chance to be able to get on their feet and access to mental care can
help people with basic needs like housing or job opportunities.
That's like the two most requested things that you could ever want.
Like a job opportunity in order to make some money and a roof over their heads.
And it does wonders for people that are actually suffering with mental illnesses.
Yeah.
Well, I think one of the big stigmas when it comes to transient people, especially ones
that are suffering from mental illness is that you have a bunch of people that lean towards
the side of well, they don't want to get help.
Well they don't.
It's not that they don't want to get help.
It's that they don't understand.
Sometimes they don't even understand that they need help.
Or it's not that they don't want to get help, but they've tried and been shut down at every
fucking turn.
Yeah.
So like go to the emergency room or it's Sunday.
Andrey Thomas and Alexander Lewis, like if you haven't listened to those two cases, please
go back and listen because that'll show you how skewed the system is.
Yeah.
A breakdown in the system.
For sure.
So again, redirecting money into actual programs that support the community for the long term
instead of state governed hospitals that only treat symptoms of mental illness.
And of course they just, it's like catch and release.
It's like once you're fixed, you're out the door.
No, yeah.
And that's what I said.
Yeah.
That's what I think about when there's like a suicide, like a self-harm hold or you know,
72 hours.
Oh, you'll be, yep, you'll be skipping after 72 hours.
All you need is some rest.
And morphine.
Like, no, but seriously, it's like, that sounds silly, but it's, okay, you just sit here until
you no longer feel like shit.
And then once you don't feel like shit, there you go.
It's not my problem anymore.
If you have, if you're suffering from a bipolar disorder, type one or type two, especially
type one, you don't feel like shit that often.
You feel like shit for a few days and then you're back on your feet again.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that when somebody that is suffering with
bipolar disorder, again, type one or two is happy, then they're fixed, they're cured.
No, that's actually a symptom of it.
And especially in type one, that's the most, that's the biggest symptom of it.
So it's just like, yes, okay, you can go through all the schooling that you want to become
a, you know, get your doctorate, but I strongly believe that everybody should have at least
internal psychology, even abnormal psychology.
I think I learned the most in abnormal psychology than any other class that I took in college.
That class.
I like social psychology, but that's just me.
Yeah, I like to people watch.
But the diagnoses though, you know what I mean?
If you are a nurse and you have taken one abnormal psychology course, you are, you know more than
a lot of people that are in the medical, then I'm not trying to be harsh by saying that.
They know a lot, but just not about mental illness.
Yes.
And that can truly save somebody's life.
If somebody comes in on a 72 hour hold, you can evaluate at least speculate on what they
may be suffering from.
That's, it's an outlet to help somebody.
If they're even suffering.
Exactly.
And like you say, like, I don't know exactly what this is, but it is abnormal.
Yes, exactly.
In 44 states, jails and prisons hold more mentally ill people than actual psychiatric
state hospitals.
Of course they do.
That's so sad.
Well, America is the most, the highest incarceration rate of any country.
Yeah.
And in 44 states, they're more likely to have a mental illness than they are not.
And actually it's majority of people that are in prison in America today, like the highest
percent is mental illness and drug charges.
And statistically people who suffer from mental illnesses are actually more likely to become
a victim of violence than to have violent tendencies.
Which is also very sad.
So again, we just need to refocus our attention.
That's what I think.
Spread the money and especially awareness into communities in order to actually help
people.
Honestly, the criminalization of mental health is, it's irresponsible, like in my opinion,
when it's something that can be prevented just by doing some either personal research
or like having that resource out there, even if you're not the one that's suffering with
mental illness, at least have that resource out there for people who want to help people
with mental illness.
Like just overall awareness can help like a lot.
Yeah, that's really compelling even.
I mean, it's, it's, when you put it all together and you lay it all out like that, like it's
just baffling.
It is.
Like it really is.
It makes my stomach hurt.
Again, like I said at the very beginning, you know, having a mental illness is not a
crime.
Why do we call 911?
Yeah.
Police officers are only trained to see threats.
Yeah.
That's it.
And I understand that a lot of police officers want to do good in their communities, but
how do you walk into a situation that is occurring with someone who is suffering from a mental
illness with your dukes up?
Like, how do you do that?
You know?
That's what they're trying to do.
Yeah.
That's what there should be another, I mean, there is, but it should be widely known that
there's another resource to call if someone is having a mental health crisis.
And those people can come out and actually assist the person in crisis rather than question
or try to, you know, or make quick second decisions, like in that moment.
So there is a couple of numbers that I'd like to mention just in case you are in a find
yourself in a situation where somebody is having a mental health crisis.
I think these numbers are national.
So there's one avoid a mental health crisis at 844-274-6154.
And there's also a 2417 crisis line at 800-989-6884.
If you ever find yourself in a situation where you're in a crisis or somebody that you know
is in a crisis, I highly believe that those numbers will be more helpful than calling
911.
Absolutely.
So yeah, I mean, definitely use your resources.
I just, that was a quick Google search and I found that, just use your resources.
If you have them, I mean, it's a privilege to have those, you know, and don't ever take
for granted if you have, you know, mental health care or, because some people don't,
some people don't have access to that.
And unfortunately, it ruins their life.
Yeah.
And if you can, like, bounce something off of a neighbor or a friend or a family member,
you know, and say like, is this normal?
Because a lot of times, like, we're, we always want to be the star in our own movie all the
time.
Like, we live our lives and we have all these, you know, things that we just assume are normal.
But maybe if you feel like something is a little abnormal, share.
And yeah, go from there.
Don't be quiet about it.
Talk to people.
People will, people are more willing to listen than you think they are.
I feel like I'm annoying people all the time too.
Have you seen that?
Hey, uh, juice based.
Have you seen that awkward silence campaign?
No.
Oh, it's cracking me up right now.
Because, well, I saw Markiplier was in it.
So I was like, Markiplier.
And it's like, uh, that it's like, sees the awkward, I think is what it's called.
And it's that awkward moment right before you're like, so is everything okay with you?
And so it's like a lot of like YouTube influencers that are like standing there and they're like,
mmm.
And then like, cause the next person is like, oh, it's like awkward.
But it's like, you know, once you get the, once you open up that gate, you know, rip
the bandaid, have a conversation.
I was already, we do put a, the National Suicide Hotline and the Trevor Project line in our
show notes on every episode.
So if you ever need access to those numbers, they're right there in the show notes.
While you are waiting for a new episode, you can follow us on Instagram at diagnosing a
killer.
We do have Twitter at killer diagnosis, diagnosing a killer at gmail.com.
And we got a new Patreon this week.
And you can donate to the Patreon if you'd like, patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer.
Anything else?
No.
Okay.
Stay healthy, stay great, stay beautiful.
Alright.
Love you.
Bye.