Hello!
Welcome back to Diagnosing a Killer, I'm Koelle and I'm Kenna.
I know, we're back.
Again, again, we're back again.
We're gonna stop making promises you guys.
I know, I think we accidentally lied to you guys again.
Yeah, well, not on purpose.
New York was just so busy and I know that people that were listening that heard that were like,
oh we're gonna record in New York, we're like, yeah, fucking right.
Yeah, right.
But we just, we brought all of our stuff and we just simply did not have time to do it.
That's true.
There was too much to do.
We were only there for four days.
Yeah.
And then by the time we got back, you weren't feeling well and I was really tired and then
we thought you might have had COVID and so we had to wait for that to come back to record.
But we are back anyways nonetheless.
And nobody asked COVID.
Yeah, no one asked COVID.
Not anymore.
I did.
Well, yeah, I'm really excited.
We're gonna do another case today.
Yes.
So originally we talked about doing a New York case, which I did do, but it also ties
into Texas.
Oh.
So that was gonna be like the whole thing.
It was like we were gonna be recording in New York.
Yeah.
And then this case also gets brought into Texas.
I mean, it's just like Kismet.
Yes.
Ready?
I am ready.
Okay.
So Robert Durst.
Okay.
Do you know who Robert Durst is?
Yeah, I've heard the name.
Damn it.
No, it's okay.
It'll be new to me a little bit of it.
Okay.
Well, not new, but just like a refresher.
Okay.
So Robert Durst was born April 12, 1943 in New York City to parents Bernice.
I guess it's Hurstine, Hurstine, and Seymour Durst.
Robert was the oldest of four kids.
It went Robert, then Douglas Durst, who's two years younger, Wendy Durst, who's four
years younger, and Tommy Durst, which is seven years younger than Robert.
His grandfather was named Joseph, and Joseph was actually an immigrant from Austria, Hungary,
who moved to the US in 1902.
Wow.
So he was a tailor before he moved, but after arriving into the States, he became a very
successful real estate manager and developer.
Oh, wow.
And then thus creating the Durst organization in 1927.
I mean, real estate was just all the hype in 1902.
It was.
Well, we went to the Empire State Building and you got to see like all the construction
and stuff and the old videos.
So cool.
It was booming.
So Robert remembers his mother as being a happy woman and the house was really well
off.
Robert was quoted in saying, quote, all my life I have had more money than I can spend
and it never made me happy.
Oh, wow.
It was noted that he had never gotten along with his brother, Douglas, however.
And in fact, the siblings actually went to rivalry counseling sessions.
Oh my gosh.
I didn't know it was a thing.
Yeah, because it got so severe.
They just never got along.
Wow.
In 1951, Robert was seven years old.
Robert actually claimed that in the night, his father had escorted him to a window of
their house saying, come see your mommy.
Let's say hi to mommy.
Uh.
So outside of the window, he could see his mother standing on the roof of the house in
her nightgown.
This is in the middle of the night.
He said that he waved to her not knowing what was about to transpire.
He then witnessed his mother fall to her death.
Robert claimed that his father had brought him to the window with the intention of making
him watch his own mother commit suicide.
She was like, hey, by the way, like I'm out and the father was like, hold on, let me just
go grab the kid and show him.
I don't know.
So how did the dad know that she was going to do that?
Like at that moment?
I don't, I, in, I don't know.
Like I think that maybe if she was threatening to like kill herself or something that he
was like, are you going to do this to your child?
Here's your child.
I'm going to do this in front of your child.
But then I feel like she would be like, oh no, I don't want to do that in front of my
child.
Right.
So it's like, did she even know that Robert was there?
Yeah.
Robert, just like I said, his account was that he was walked to the window and was like,
come see your mother, like come see your mother.
You also have to think about the fact that he's what I would seven at this point and
it's the middle of the night.
This might not be the best, like most clear memory that he has.
So that there could have been other aspects that happened and he just couldn't remember.
Yeah.
So he did say that he was woken up in the middle of the night and was escorted to the
window.
And also it was on the second story.
They had a pretty big house.
I'm pretty sure she was like about third or fourth story.
Okay.
I was going to say that's unlikely to kill somebody is just a second story.
And they had people like maids or housekeepers that were also that also tended to the house
because they were really rich.
Yeah.
They were super well off.
Damn, that sucks.
So again, Robert's account is that he claimed that his father did this on purpose to him.
This is something that Seymour has denied completely.
And Douglas, even his brother, backed him up and said, Robert never witnessed the death
of her mother.
Yeah.
Wow.
Okay.
And if that was true, like how fucking like mentally skewing would that be to hear somebody
say like, no, you're wrong.
You didn't see that.
I am like, I witnessed it.
I did.
Yeah.
Like what the hell?
Exactly.
The newspaper has even stated that the incident was an accident saying that she had slipped
from the roof.
But like, why was she out there in the middle of the night in a nightgown no less?
So like what is it?
It's not like she's working on the roof in the middle of the night.
Maybe she was sleepwalking.
I don't know.
But it's like, is there a cover up?
Like because apparently multiple adults had witnessed this and said that it was an accident.
That's kind of weird.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, nobody wants to believe that their loved one or someone that they're close to
is willing and able to commit suicide, but at the same time it's like, does it really
sound like an accident to me?
Right.
And kind of doesn't.
It's kind of a weird situation.
Yeah.
So Robert was quoted in saying that quote, that night has never left me.
Uh, yeah.
It wouldn't leave me either.
So this kind of became the beginning of Robert starting to act out and specifically in running
away.
He would run away at night during the day.
He just wouldn't come back home, all this other stuff.
He just did not want to be home.
Seymour's escape, his dad, was basically throwing himself into work and he basically left the
kids to grieve alone because they were being taken care of by other people.
So he was never really around and Seymour rarely spoke of anything regarding his late
wife at all from that point on.
You could really argue that if this whole thing did happen that Robert would be, as
a child, scared that maybe I'm next.
Like maybe that'll happen to me if he thought that she was coerced in any way or she thought
that his dad clearly in his memory didn't care about what happened to his mother so
what does he care what happens to me?
So in 1953 evaluation by psychologist cited Robert had shown signs of quote, personality
decomposition and possibly even schizophrenia.
In Robert's?
For Robert, yeah.
And this was through some of the counseling that him and Douglas were experiencing together.
So during his high school years Robert was described as a loner.
Can't see why.
In college in Pennsylvania he played on the Varsity La Crosse team and he was actually
a business manager of the school's newspaper.
That doesn't sound like a loner to me.
Right?
Yeah.
I think he was trying his best.
I think that was high school was that he was described as a loner but in college he
played.
Oh I see, I see.
He played Varsity La Crosse and a business manager of the school's newspaper.
He eventually graduated with a bachelor's in economics in 1965.
Robert then decided to move to California to study at UCLA and he was pursuing a doctoral
degree.
Here he met Susan Berman.
Susan Berman was the daughter of an infamous Jewish American mobster and he was known for
taking over the Flamingo in Las Vegas from Bugsy Siegel after his death.
Okay, that's fucking cool.
Yeah, like that's your dad.
Yeah, we just stayed there in August.
So although some details about her early life are definitely out there if you want to research
it, be my guest, but for this purpose and this time I just want to say that Susan Berman
became Robert Durst's best friend during these years in college.
So again, this was in the late 60s.
So by 1969 Robert would actually drop out of school and return to New York.
This is basically because Robert was pressured by Seymour to come back for the family business
because again this is like across.
He was growing up in New York and all sort of stuff.
He grew up in Pennsylvania then went to California and again that's where he met Susan.
But although Robert did move back into the area of New York, he ended up actually moving
to Vermont and started up a health food store.
It's a similar to Whole Foods.
So I think at this time he's like, okay, I'm a little hippie-dippy probably at this point.
It's the late 60s going into the 70s.
I think that that's something that was completely different than what his dad wanted.
And so again, I think it's just like kind of interesting.
Like, well, you got to work, you got to do something and what am I going to do with dad's
money?
I guess I'm going to open up a health food store.
Yeah, just help some people out.
Yeah.
So in the fall of 1971, again, this is just a few years later, Robert actually met Kathleen
McCormick or as her family and friends called her Kathy.
Kathy was described as a always well put together and incredibly smart individual.
While out with friends, she met Robert.
She was swept off her feet immediately.
They had actually met in New York where she was living and Robert was in town visiting
from Vermont.
But after just two dates, Robert asked Kathy to move in with him and she did.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it was like, world-wind, Kathy.
Yeah.
Balzy.
Right?
He's just a smooth talker.
So within a year, the couples actually started talking about marriage.
And so this has had to have been like 72 maybe, all very, very quick, right?
And they actually ended up getting married on Robert's 30th birthday.
So April 12, 1972-ish.
So feeling the pressure to continue the family business once again, Robert eventually sold
his health food store in order to please his father, Seymour.
So they did move back to New York.
And although the couple seemed happy, Kathy's family grew increasingly suspicious of Robert
and his behavior was described as odd oftentimes.
Is he still struggling with this half-diagnosed schizophrenia?
Yeah, of course.
Like, he's never taken any type of medication for it.
He was never really treated for it.
So after leaving family events, oftentimes Robert and Kathy would argue, mostly because
the family didn't like Robert.
Well, yeah.
And then it's like frustrating whenever you go to an event, you don't have a good time,
things happen.
And then as soon as you leave, that's what you're going to talk about.
I mean, me and Casey do that.
I mean, we talk about good things, but whenever we go somewhere, we have a time, whatever,
about our good, we talk about it on the way home.
And of course, yeah.
And from what I can tell, the family probably didn't live very close to where Kathy and
Robert did.
At this point, they do have a house that is on a plot of land by a lake.
But they also have an in-town or in-city apartment that they also have as well.
I'm assuming just for convenience.
Yeah, absolutely.
But it just seemed like when they would be traveling home to the lake house after a visit
with Kathy's family, they would kind of, of course, argue, be like, you know, they don't
like me.
Like, why are we there or whatever?
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be around someone's family that didn't like me.
Yeah.
And made it very clear that they didn't like me.
Right.
And so for Kathy, it was like, can't you just like chill out for an hour or two?
Like, do you have to be so, you know, I think everybody goes through that.
I can see it on both sides.
Yeah, I really can.
Everybody goes through issues with the other partner's family.
Yeah.
And that's part of being in a relationship, honestly.
So of course, Robert, being used to a certain lifestyle, he said that he would feel, quote,
forced to spend time with the average American family, which, again, he's used to a certain
type of lifestyle and he probably thought they were country bumpkins compared to what
he was growing up with, you know?
Yeah, but he's been away from his, like, I guess, physically been away, like in California,
this and that and the other.
He's been back, but I feel like he kind of distanced himself from that a long time ago.
Yeah.
And he's kind of complaining now that he doesn't have that.
Yeah.
He wants to have his cake and eat it too.
Yeah.
So on January 31st, 1982, the last person to see Katya live was a friend of hers who
was hosting a dinner party.
Hold on.
So they've been together for, what, like almost 10 years?
Yeah.
I think they were married and, well, they met in 71.
They married a year later, so about eight to 10 years somewhere in there.
All of the sudden?
She's just...
Well, it's not kind of all of the sudden.
Well, it seems that way though.
It does seem that way though.
It does.
So although Kathy wasn't actually invited to this dinner party, she had showed up.
And it was a good friend of hers.
It's not like it was, you know, an acquaintance.
This person was actually one of her best friends.
She was just hosting a dinner party and I don't know what the circumstances were, but it's
not that Kathy wasn't necessarily not invited.
It was just she was hosting a dinner party and I guess Kathy knew.
So she showed up and it was noticed by her friend that Kathy was wearing a pair of red
sweatpants, which was very unusual for the well put together, Kathy, right?
She was described as always put together.
Kathy seemed down all night or kind of emotional about something.
And throughout the time that Kathy was at her friend's house, Robert had called several
times and each time Kathy seemed to get more agitated.
So she was just, I guess he was calling to make sure she was there.
I mean, not abnormal in and itself.
Like, I've gotten annoyed too.
But out of combination with her feeling like emotional and stuff too.
And wearing like abnormal clothes for her.
Yeah.
It was like every time she answered the phone, she would get more upset.
Just kind of like, so eventually she decided to depart from the party and make her way
back home to the lake house with a couple shared.
So the next day, some of Kathy's friends were supposed to meet up with her for drinks
and Kathy never showed.
The next several days, the friends attempted to contact police regarding the potential disappearance
of Kathy and nearing the end of the week, Robert himself finally decided to notify police.
So nearly a week.
So the friends were like talking to Robert and he was like, I don't know where she is.
Either like, maybe we should file a report.
And so it seemed like they were concerned.
They were calling Robert.
They were calling Kathy.
There was no answer.
Either there was answers from him and he was just kind of like evasive or, you know, they
would be calling the New York apartment and no answer, the one inside the city.
And there would be no answer.
I'm assuming they probably tried to contact other friends and family members.
But this is like since the next day after they saw her at the party, but Robert waited
an entire week.
And it seemed like the only reason he did report it is because people were asking him
where Kathy was.
So this is after he was advised by his dad and his brother to not come forward, by the
way.
Like they were the ones that were telling him like he called according to Robert.
He called his dad and his brother and said, should I be worried?
And both the dad and the brother were like, well, you've had some problems with her.
Like maybe she's just trying to lay low for a little bit.
I wouldn't be so concerned just yet.
And I think honestly, part of it is because they're a really well off family and they're
really well known in New York.
And if, you know, they didn't want media.
If it's a misunderstanding, then they look silly.
Exactly.
Or if it's a crime, then they look worse.
So Robert came in for an interview and he spoke to police about the events that transpired
on the 31st of January.
He said that in the morning it was typical that he and Kathy went to a local shop for
a newspaper and coffee, as they always do.
They came back to enjoy breakfast.
Kathy then decided to go to her friend's house around 3.30 or 4.00 PM.
Then she came home at about 7.30.
Robert could tell that she had been drinking at her friend's house, but that she was not
drunk.
Robert said that they ate together that night having sandwiches and then they both left
for the train station.
Oh, that's a lie.
Cause who the fuck has sandwiches for dinner?
When you're rich.
When it was very specific.
It was only-
Actually, we had sandwiches.
So, I know.
It was kind of a weird thing to say.
So I'm just- I'm kind of thinking like, because- okay, so she went to her friend's
house at 3.30 or 4.00, right?
Then she came home at 7.30.
How many times do you think he called her in between that time?
No, probably multiple times.
Three or four hours?
Yeah.
He probably called at least three or four times.
At least.
Because apparently she was getting agitated and apparently it was enough for other people
to notice.
Then she comes back at 7.30.
She's been drinking but she's not drunk.
They ate sandwiches together and then they both left for the train station.
So I should be clear.
The house that they were staying at is the lake house.
But when they both headed to the train station, Kathy was planning on taking the train to
their apartment.
So they were going to stay separately that night.
I'm assuming because maybe they were in an argument or something.
So Robert said that he watched her get onto the train, headed towards the couple's apartment,
right?
And then that was the last that he physically saw her.
Robert then came back home and I guess he saw his neighbor Bill outside and decided to
have a drink with his neighbor Bill.
He then went for a walk with the dog.
Robert claimed that he then called Kathy from a payphone while on his walk at 11.15 when
she said that she was just fine watching TV at the apartment.
Okay, so here's all of my alibi.
Bill, the payphone.
Can you ask the dog?
I was with the dog.
You should ask him.
No, but the fact that my neighbor Bill, here's his last name, here's where he lives, all
of them, here's his number.
You know what I mean?
It's oddly specific.
It is.
And then I went to this payphone on the corner of 38th and 1st or whatever.
It's like, I don't know.
It's too much.
It's way too many details.
And this is like literally, I mean, again, I think the interrogation video is out there.
If not, there's definitely a documentary that has it, but it seems like, hey, how's
it going?
Capas?
And then it's like, yeah, here's all my things.
Here's all my alibis.
And then, you know.
Like I called her.
She said she was fine.
She was watching TV.
Can you ask the TV?
Yeah.
Can you ask the TV?
Yeah.
So Robert then goes home and then goes to sleep.
So police do believe that Kathy did make it to the city because a doorman actually claimed
that he saw Kathy arrive at the apartment building around 11.30.
But he called her at 11.15.
Right?
And then she said, home watching TV.
Yes.
Poking a little holes in your story there, Robert.
Police further believe that Kathy was actually unharmed by the next morning because she did
call into class because she was actually still in courses, I should have said that.
And she was actually three months away from graduating too, as well as at this point.
But she had called class, spoke to the dean and said that she wasn't feeling well.
Police at this point believe that she must have just left Robert and then given his controlling
nature by accounts of all of her friends and stuff like that, they didn't suspect foul
play at all.
They just thought that she left.
Kathy's friends convinced that Robert had something to do with Kathy's disappearance
and knowing that the police were losing interest, they began to investigate themselves.
Hell yeah.
Right?
I know.
Bad bitch club.
So one of the more suspicious things that Robert had done following the disappearance of his
wife was that he initially had proposed a $100,000 reward for information regarding the
whereabouts of his wife.
He then leased into that reward money from $100,000 to $15,000.
What the hell?
From $100,000 to $15,000.
This is in the week.
Okay, so everything that I'm about to tell you right now is within the week before he
reports it.
So he's like, oh wait, I'm sorry, my wife, knowledge of my wife is not worth $100,000.
Maybe $15,000.
That was a little bit of a typo.
I don't know.
Yeah, what the hell?
My bad.
So again, significantly less than his original offer.
So through looking at some of Kathy's diaries that her friends had had or had gotten a hold
of, they actually had broken into Kathy's apartment.
They broke into- I probably wouldn't have too.
Yeah, and they broke into the apartment, the one that she was staying at in New York.
And the entire place had been tossed, completely tossed.
Everything had been rearranged.
Everything was up on its end.
So through there, they had found Kathy's diaries.
And on several occasions, she had written about the fact that Robert had punched her
during several arguments.
Oh no.
Like a lot.
It's not looking good for Robert.
Yes.
So then Robert goes and reports and all sort of stuff.
So about three weeks later after Kathy's disappearance, her friends took garbage from outside of the
Robert and Kathy's lake house and just took it off of the sidewalk, I guess.
And they found multiple trash bags containing Kathy's clothes, schoolwork, school books,
and several other personal belongings.
So he was just getting rid of her shit.
I understand the need or want to get rid of somebody's stuff after you know that they've
passed, but at this moment, she's still a missing person.
She's a missing person.
And he's already tossing her shit out the window.
Highly suss.
Yes.
Highly suss.
So it was then that the women found something super haunting.
They found a note written in Robert's handwriting saying the words, quote, town, dump, bridge,
big, boat, other, shovel, or car, truck, wrench, end quote.
Just like a list.
Yeah.
Terrifying.
Her friends were now convinced that Robert absolutely killed Kathy and there was nothing
that they could do about it at this point.
The police took this as circumstantial evidence with no tangible evidence beyond a doubt that
there was nothing to charge Robert with.
I mean, unfortunately, there's not circumstantial.
Because he was, you know, he could just be like, oh, spring cleaning.
I'm just getting rid of some stuff.
And the words, I was teaching someone how to read.
Yeah.
Like, write.
I don't know.
No, that was like dream I had and I was just trying to write it down in my sleep.
I mean, he literally could say anything about that note though and they have no reason to
believe him or to not believe it.
I know.
I mean, literally, I mean, it really, town dump, like, okay, I need to run some, I need
to go throw some stuff down at the town dump.
Yeah.
A bridge.
I don't know.
Do you need to throw stuff off our bridge?
I mean, I don't know.
Dig, boat, shovel.
It's just, that's kind of scary.
Robert did admit that the relationship had been toxic and that Kathy actually had filed
for divorce about a week before.
He maintained that due to an abortion that he forced her to have years before, Kathy
had become an unpredictable and broken person capable of leaving him without warning.
Oh, I wonder fucking why when you force somebody to get an abortion that they're going to
become a little uneasy and go on edge.
Yeah, exactly.
And of course, it's just so sad.
That is so sad.
Robert, however, was insistent that Kathy would have finished medical school since she
was so close to graduating already.
So he was like, okay, I agree.
That is weird that she did medical school.
Yeah, of course.
So it's like he's giving them a little bit.
Yeah.
But like kind of not.
Like he's trying to be helpful, but it comes off as very suspicious, right?
Like he's like, oh yeah, she did file for divorce.
Oh yeah, we did have arguments.
Oh yeah, our relationship was toxic.
That is kind of weird if she didn't show up to school.
Yeah, she did hate me because I forced her to have an abortion.
Well, she did hate me.
Well, I am your number one suspect.
Yeah.
Besides the point.
Yeah.
So that is the story of Kathy McCormick.
It is the story of Kathy McCormick.
Kathleen.
Her name is Kathleen.
Oh, I said Kathleen.
No, not Kathleen.
Kathy.
Okay.
Kathy McCormick.
She's just gone.
That's it.
Only 20 years later in 2000, a tip provided in an unrelated case reopened the investigation
into Kathy's disappearance.
Oh my God.
Sometimes.
Oh my God.
And 20 years ago.
Yeah.
Which is crazy.
Oh yeah, 20 years ago.
Many areas of interest were searched at that time, so in 2000, including Robert and Kathy's
lake house that had been sold long ago.
Divers actually looked into the lake behind the Durst house in a small, like hidden nook
and cranny of the house.
It was like behind like a closet door.
And they, in an interview, the lady that owns the house was like, I didn't even know that
door existed.
That's terrifying.
Yeah, so they searched all back there.
But they had nothing to show for it.
They didn't find anything.
What was the tip that reopened the case?
It was an unrelated, it was, some guy had gotten arrested and in order for him to like
get a plea deal or whatever it was, he had said that he knew someone who knew that
Robert had killed Kathy.
And again, the details are out there.
So with nothing to show for the investigation, since they didn't find anything, investigators
started turning to first-hand accounts of that night.
In later interviews, Robert would admit that he did not go to the neighbor's house that
he had originally said.
Which is stupid, because he would think that the investigators would be like, who's Bill?
Yeah, no, I was gonna say, did they not talk to Bill?
And Bill definitely was like, I don't even know that guy.
And then 20 years later, Bill's like, thank you.
I was trying to fucking tell you.
So it was after they had actually, so again, this is 2000, this is 20 years later almost.
And they go to Bill's house and he was like, he was never over here.
And then he was like, hey, we talked to your neighbor and he said you were never over there
and Robert goes, oh yeah, I wasn't.
They didn't think to talk to Bill 20 years before.
No.
Wow.
Wait, this is New York?
This is New York, yeah.
I thought it was gonna be the LAPD.
No, this is all New York.
He also admitted that he did not speak with Kathy that night on a pay phone.
And of course, it's like, when this is found out, this is like 20 years later.
Yeah.
And then just like, oh, okay, you talked to Bill, you talked to the pay phone.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, because they were already convinced that she just ran away.
Yeah, because, and because of the Dormin's account that he had seen Kathy.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah.
So they didn't think to do any of that, which is real dumb.
And this asshole lied and got away with it for 20 years.
Yeah.
And then he just told them.
His excuse was that he's like, well, I just figured it would all just go away.
Like I would just say, oh, yeah, I was here.
I was there and I did talk to her.
And he's like, because I was convinced she just left me.
So yeah.
All right, we'll see.
One of Kathy's friends around this time told police to talk to Susan Berman.
Do you remember Susan Berman?
That's his best friend.
So Susan was actually a successful writer at this point and she wrote her experiences
about being a mafia princess.
That was like her thing.
So she loved her father and actually idolized him in his professions.
Some people believe that's why Susan and Robert got along so well is that they both
had financially powerful dads like father figures.
So Susan actually lost her father at a very young age.
He was also murdered.
Susan had actually attached to Robert in a way that some found really unusual.
It was said that she would protect him at all costs and that their friendship was described
by Susan as quote special.
At the time of Kathy's disappearance in 1982, Susan had become actually the spokesperson
on Robert's behalf.
And she dealt with all of the media.
And I think it was more because she was exposed to media and being interviewed and things
like that because she's a writer.
But it was it's a little weird.
Susan could be incredibly persuasive with the media when it came to speculation as to
where Kathy was or potentially could be.
The quote, why I put quote or so.
So the Dirst family had actually come out saying that unnamed friends or family had
actually heard from Kathy weeks after her disappearance.
Oh, but we're going to just like leave them anonymous so that you can't confirm them.
Exactly.
So they were pretty much eating up anything that Susan was willing to give them as far
as speculation of where Kathy could be.
But yeah, it seemingly cooperated that runaway theory.
So the following years after Kathy's disappearance, Susan actually stayed in New York to support
Robert emotionally and would then leave back to Beverly Hills, California.
This is again during Kathy's disappearance in 1982 and then now we're fast forwarding
to 2000.
So she's still living in California, Hollywood, California or Beverly Hills.
So they basically are reopening up this case because of the new evidence that they found
and the fact that Robert had lied several times to the police and they're actually doing
interviews.
So Susan Berman actually is approached by NYPD and Robert recalls a phone conversation
that he had with Susan over the topic of the case.
And Robert says that Susan said she was approached by police to talk about Kathy and was saying
that she can't believe that police are investigating this again and that it must be terrible for
him to have to experience all these old wounds again.
Oh, it must be terrible for him to have to go through all of this.
It's not terrible that, speculating here, Kathy got murdered.
That's not terrible.
But it's terrible that, oh poor Robert, the guy that fucking did it, has to go through
the pain and agony.
Whatever.
If anything, he's getting a fucking boner thinking about that.
He's really a fucking creepo.
Sorry.
So, again, this is all Robert's account, right?
Yeah.
So this is all Robert's account.
This is what he said him and Susan were talking about.
And actually that was the last time Robert said he ever spoke to Susan.
Okay.
And also Sus.
So on Christmas Eve, police recall.
Wait.
No, she's got it.
Don't say it.
It's gonna happen.
Okay, go.
On Christmas Eve, police recalled about a suspicious set of circumstances.
No.
You should know my writing by now.
On Christmas Eve, police recalled about a suspicious set of circumstances.
A neighbor found Susan's beloved Fox Terrier outside of the residence with the back door
wide open.
He was alive.
It's okay.
He was alive.
They just thought it was unusual that the dog was running around by himself.
Police arrived and found Susan Berman shot to death as she laid on her bedroom floor.
Oh my God.
The house was in a very neat state.
The front door had still been deadbolted and it gave the indication that likely she knew
whoever it was.
Yeah, she let him in.
They clearly weren't there to rob her because nothing was touched, really.
Immediately rumors circulated that Robert had something to do with it.
You don't say.
It's well known that investigators had an interest in talking with Susan about the 1982
disappearance of Robert's wife, but mostly there was talk that Susan would be going national
and talking about the circumstances involving it.
And he's like, oh no, you don't?
Yeah.
Oh no.
Because, yeah.
Okay, this, come on.
He has to get caught now.
So the police were more convinced that Susan's murder was likely a mob hit.
The police, the LAPD.
They're like, oh, well, she wrote books about being a mafia princess and that apparently,
according to her friends, that she had stumbled upon something big and was going to release
that nationally as well.
Sounds like the LAPD.
Right?
Doing their best job ever.
Just doing the job.
Great job.
So a few days after Susan's body was found, the Beverly Hills Police Department received
a strange letter.
The envelope was addressed to Beverly Hills PD, but misspelled was the word Beverly.
It was spelled B-E-V-E-R-L-E-Y, not Beverly without the E at the end.
And it was postmarked for the 23rd of December, 2000.
She was found Christmas Eve, which is the 24th, but the postmark was for the 23rd, was
the day before.
The letter and the envelope stated 1527 Benedict Canyon, cadaver.
That's it.
So her address with the word cadaver.
So it sounds a lot like his old note that was found with just the random words.
Like a list.
And if any listeners don't know what cadaver is, it is, well, if I'm not mistaken, it
might have multiple meanings, but it's what-
It's a dead body.
Yeah, it is a dead body.
It's a body.
I think about like, surgeons and trainings that they can learn.
But like, the fact that someone, okay, so clearly it was postmarked on the 23rd, meaning
that someone knew there was a dead body in that house.
And the only times that usually anybody does that is when they know the person, they don't
want that person sitting there.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's the same reason why people like cover their faces and stuff is because they know
them personally.
So it's like, he loves her enough to be like, I don't want her sitting in there.
Yeah, bullshit.
Isn't that creepy?
Oh, it's so creepy.
That is really creepy.
So at this point, the mafia was eliminated because they were like, the mafia doesn't
do that shit.
They're not going to send us a fucking little care.
But Robert was also identified to have been in California in the area a few days before
Susan Berman's murder.
Oh, that's just such a co-winky dink, isn't it?
He actually left the night before her body was found.
Also a co-winky dink.
So probably after he sent that letter, he was just like, gotta get the fuck out of here.
So a ledger was actually found by investigators in Susan Berman's house that stated that Robert
Durst had given Susan $50,000 because she was falling on hard times.
And she actually had-
And she probably has hush money and she was like, no.
Exactly.
And that's what I think.
I think it's hush money.
Well, then she was like, I think she knew.
I think she knew.
But I'm still going to put out this whatever it is, a statement.
Right.
Or maybe he wasn't going to risk her saying something.
So Robert actually did not even attend Susan's funeral.
In an estranged turn of events, Susan's stepson actually became increasingly close with Robert
after this happened.
Robert actually offered to pay for her stepson's college graduation, full ride.
Hush money.
Guilty conscience, maybe?
Uh-huh.
Susan's stepson actually made plans with Robert to have dinner one week after- in a week or
so after all this happened.
But Robert would never make it to that dinner.
Okay.
In Galveston, Texas.
Oh my gosh.
We're bouncing everywhere with stuff.
There's so much stuff.
So again, that's all the New York stuff, right?
So now we're going to Texas, Galveston, Texas.
So in late September 2001, a teenage boy was fishing in the Galveston Bay when he came
upon a human torso floating in the water.
Right.
Okay.
Right.
When the hunters arrived at the scene, they began to retrieve pieces of an adult male content
warning.
They found a torso, two legs, two arms, and they were all found in black plastic bags
floating along the shoreline.
But a head was never recovered.
The medical examiner had determined that in order, the right leg had been cut, the left
leg had been cut, the left arm, the neck, and then the right arm.
Maybe for things like I'm not savvy in how they determine the other orders, but they
knew that the right arm was blast since the blade had dulled to the point to where the
arm needed to be broken.
Oh, God.
Well, it also was, I don't know if it's like pooling or the way that the blood, like you
can tell if a cut has been made pre or postmortem.
So maybe one of those was made.
Well, it was also found in the water though.
So I'm saying, I mean, you can still kind of tell if it like the way that the blood
pools around the wound, like if the blood was still pumping when you cut the organs.
Yeah.
I think that's how they determined that first.
So along with the body parts, some trash was actually recovered in the bags as well.
So a newspaper found inside the trash bag gave an address to a Dorothy Siner who lived
in an apartment in a like a quadplex.
So there's like four, you know, apartments in one building and she lived in apartment
two.
So the detectives got to the location of the apartment on 2213 Avenue K in Galveston,
Texas, and they actually saw a blood trail leading from the street up into the stairs
of like going up to the residence.
Literally what an idiot.
Whoever did this, what an idiot.
So Kloss Dillman was actually the landlord and of course they called him to the scene
when they found out, you know, where this location was.
And he was asked to describe all of his tenants.
He described, there was two, I think, I think one of the apartments upstairs was vacant,
maybe both, but either way, he definitely had two tenants.
Tenant apartment number one is 70 year old Morris Black who was a homeless shelter volunteer
and an apartment number two lived Dorothy Siner.
She was an older lady who was deaf and mute, who mostly kept to herself, but she did travel
a lot.
When asked, Kloss said that she was not an attractive woman.
A woman with small busts were not his type.
But what intrigued him about Dorothy coming to apply for his apartment was that she wanted
to pay for a whole year in advance and that she regularly traveled.
But when she was home, she was very quiet tenant and there was never any complaints from her
or other residents in the community about her.
Except for that blood trail coming from the street to her front door.
She never had any visitors with the exception of her son-in-law who would come by regularly
to check on Dorothy to keep her company or to house it for her.
Police received a search warrant for apartments one and two.
There was actually blood found in the hallway as well in between the two apartments.
In Morris Black's apartment, there was no evidence whatsoever of foul play.
However, in apartment two in the kitchen, there were multiple cups in the linoleum of
the floor.
Like very deliberate saw marks were scattered all over the floor.
Like what happens when you saw limbs off of a body?
Probably.
Investigators then tore up pieces of the linoleum and underneath the cups they found blood stains
that had soaked through the floorboards.
Pills were taken and it was determined that the blood belonged to the body they found
in the bay.
Okay, how did this lady do that?
Hold on, go ahead.
Fingerprints determine that the body was that of Morris Black.
What?
It's a resident from apartment one.
What?
I thought it was going to be the body of Robert.
Okay, go ahead.
Oh my gosh, what a plot twist.
This story, man.
Everyone's like, Ken, I should have if I wanted to hear the rest.
So already that's fucked up enough, right?
Yeah.
It's already fucked up.
While at the scene, investigators noticed that the number two apartment was a little
strange.
There was absolutely no signs that a woman lived there, let alone anyone.
The apartment was pretty much bare, other than like a TV and like a full-doubt chair.
So who's this lady?
She's never home and when she is, it's like living with a ghost.
She has plenty of money to travel but yet she lives in an apartment in a really not
nice area.
The rent is only $300 a month but she pays a year in advance.
It's a little weird, right?
So at this point, police suspect it's a cover-up of some kind.
Police searched the trash cans outside and through all of these very non-feminine items,
they find a receipt for a hardware store.
Specifically on this list included knives, tarps, and a bosa.
They also find a receipt for an eyeglass's place.
The receipt was filled out by Robert Durst.
When detectives call the clinic, they say that the clinic said that Robert was supposed
to pick up his glasses last Friday but just as a caution, the detective left his name
and number in case he did decide to swing by and get his glasses.
So sure enough, eventually the detective was called by the glasses shop after Durst came
to pick up his glasses.
They pull him over and Durst was compliant but officers did notice a bosa in the backseat.
What a fucking idiot.
First impressions from detectives are like, what is this guy?
Who is this guy?
One of the officers described him as looking like a librarian because he's a very small
petite man.
They take him down to the station and they talk about all of this incriminating evidence
and where Moritz Black is and all this stuff and he says that he doesn't really know what's
going on, he doesn't want to talk, and he asks if he needs bill money basically.
He's like, I won't talk to you until I talk to a lawyer.
It was then explained to him that he was being arrested for homicide and that it was a $250,000
bond.
But it's circumstantial at best.
They don't have any physical evidence of him yet.
Well they know that he was killed in this apartment that he pretty much lives in and
he signed.
You know, clearly he was there.
Look who is he paying this lady?
Maybe she's not deaf and mute.
Oh my god, maybe she's not.
She's just pretending.
Go ahead.
This is how my mind works.
Did you not get it yet?
Is he the lady?
He is Dorothy Sinner.
On top of everything else, he is now posing as a woman, an elderly woman.
I thought that he was paying an elderly woman to live there.
Not live there but pretend like she was a woman.
No, that's what I'm saying.
When Klaus, I mean, she was a very unattractive woman, small bust or not my thing.
It's come full circle.
Wow, that took me too long.
Did you not get it yet?
So at this point again, he's been placed under arrest for homicide and that the bail
is $250,000.
When asked if he had that kind of money, Durst calmly says, well, not on me.
Ew.
Yeah.
What an arrogant fucking prick.
One quick phone call to his wife would do the trick.
That's right.
He was remarried at this time.
That's right, both of us.
Yeah, I heard it, yeah.
He did, he remarried and he was actually married to a well-off real estate broker named
Deborah Cheriton.
Cheriton, Cheriton.
The two had actually been married since December of 2000.
This was after Durst had gone missing from New York and had made the move to Galveston.
Yeah, this is like the same year that Susan died, like the same month that she got remarried.
So with all of this, them trying to reopen up the case and all that sort of stuff, he
married this woman and then escaped to Galveston.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, or vice versa.
So although Deborah would deny she knew anything about the apartment in Galveston during this
time or whatever, Durst later claimed that his marriage to Deborah was solely out of desperation
to protect his assets and was described as, quote, a marriage of conveniences, not for
love.
I mean, sounds like it to me.
Right.
And you should, oh my gosh, you should see this woman be interviewed.
She's just like, maybe it was this, maybe it was that.
I don't really know.
She's really aloof.
She knows what she's doing.
She's a smart woman.
16 days after Durst bonded out of jail, he was supposed to appear in court for a hearing.
He did not show.
He was still indicted on charges of murder.
After a seven week long manhunt, Durst was found shoplifting, a chicken salad sandwich,
and some band-aids from a grocery store.
Man just loves his sandwiches.
Keep in mind, he has $500 cash on him.
What a fucking idiot.
He just did it because he wanted to.
Yeah.
He just can't help himself.
He loves sandwiches so much.
He was found with an arsenal in his car, guns, $41,000 in cash, weed, even Morris Black's
driver's license.
Oh, what a sick fuck.
Yeah.
It was also found that at that time, he was actually stalking his brother to the point
that Douglas had hired private security to monitor his family.
Oh, that's so scary.
Yeah.
Durst was actually extradited to Texas for his trial, which did not occur until 2003.
A psychiatrist spent over 70 hours examining Durst and diagnosed him with Asperger's syndrome,
saying, quote, his whole life story is so compatible with the diagnosis of Asperger's
disorder, end quote.
His defense team argued at the trial that the diagnosis explained his odd behavior.
The defense maintained that Durst and Black had actually become friends.
They spent time together almost every day.
The prosecution insisted that Morris had found out who Robert actually was and that's why
he killed him.
I mean, yeah.
It seems to me.
Yeah, exactly.
The defense says that Robert acted in self-defense.
He said that one day when he came home, Morris Black had broken into his apartment and when
he walked in, Morris had found Robert's.22 caliber pistol.
Durst did confess to dismembering Black's body, saying that he used a paring knife,
two saws, and an axe.
Given that Black's head was never recovered, there lacked sufficient forensic evidence
to convict Robert Durst for murder.
Not even kidding.
So he confessed to dismembering him?
Okay, so then get him on mutilation of a corpse at least.
He was murder?
No, he totally didn't.
He was acquitted of murder in November of 2003.
However, in December of the following year, 2004, Durst confessed to tampering with evidence
charge as well as skipping his bail.
He was sentenced to five years with time served for a total of three years in prison for the
crimes.
However, Durst was released on July 15, 2005.
He never got tried for the other two murders?
There's not enough sufficient evidence.
They haven't brought him to trial for those years.
So he's out right now?
Well, listen, there's more.
Oh my God.
I'm like, should we hide?
So that's for Morris Black, right?
Holy crap.
So yeah, that's the whole Morris Black story.
Holy crap.
So he, because they were basically saying like defense said it was self-defense, prosecution
said that he just killed him because he found out he was Robert Durst.
But because there was no head and he claimed to have shot him in the head, the rest of
the body had no trauma other than the dismemberment.
So they couldn't prove murder or self-defense.
That's why he only got tampering with evidence.
Even though he's like, yeah, I chopped him up in my kitchen.
He did.
Yeah, he totally admitted to that.
Oh my God, that's so fucking ridiculous.
Isn't that ridiculous?
Ten years later, a docuseries called The Jinx was released on HBO.
And I'm sure maybe if you guys are true crime fanatics, you probably already watched it.
The docuseries documents the accounts of the disappearance of Kathy Durst, the murder of
Susan Berman and the killing of Morris Black.
Against the advice of his new wife, Deborah, and his lawyers, Robert Durst gave first account
interviews and almost unrestricted access to documents.
The documentary ends with Durst moving into a bathroom where his microphone is still on
and he doesn't realize it.
Hot mic.
He's seemingly saying to himself, there it is.
You're caught.
You're right, of course, but you can't imagine.
Rest him.
I don't know what's in the house.
I want this.
What a disaster.
He was right.
I was wrong.
The burping.
I'm having difficulty with the question.
What the hell do I do?
What did I do?
Kill them all, of course.
I don't like that at all.
What he's referring to when he's saying the burping is that when the questions start getting
really difficult, he starts having this acid reflux thing.
It's like in the very last episode, it's haunting.
Yeah.
I got to get out of here.
My overseas.
So with newfound evidence acquired during the docuseries, prosecutors actually had sufficient
amount of evidence to take Durst in on charges of murder.
On the day that the last episode of the Jinx was to air, Durst was arrested for murder
for the murder of Susan Berman.
He was arrested in New Orleans posing under the alias of Everett Ward.
Again, arrested with various IDs, weed, guns, ammo, different clothing styles, new cell phones,
and the list goes on.
He was denied bail at this point, but first he had to go through weapons charges in Louisiana
because he was found with all of this stuff before being extradited to California for
the murder of Susan Berman.
He pleaded guilty to all charges and was to serve an 85-month prison sentence.
This was handed down in February of 2016.
So this is within a year of the Jinx.
But he only got 85 months for murder?
No, this is for the weapons charge.
So when he was found, he had all these guns and all this stuff, and he was a felon.
So after getting everyone together, there was a lot of trouble getting everyone together
for the trial in California.
Durst actually went under for surgery.
He went in for surgery, and Hurricane Harvey happened on the East Coast.
So getting the lawyers together, all this other stuff.
So the trial didn't start for the murder of Susan Berman until 2018.
Robert's best friend at his wedding testified that Durst had actually confessed to him that
he killed Susan because of she knew about Kathy.
In the trial, a handwriting analysis suggested that Durst had written the letter to police,
the one that was misspelled.
The defense claimed that no evidence was presented in the Daki series that was new information,
that the director was in cahoots with law enforcement, and that together they built
a scheme to publicize and market the film.
Oh, what the fuck ever.
So stupid.
So then COVID happens, woo.
And so dates keep getting pushed back.
It decided April 2021, then May 2021.
Durst's attorney said that Durst was having complications with bladder cancer, postponed
until June, then July, more complications, and it's thought at this point that Durst
was just faking medical conditions.
So then he just didn't have to go.
Really like there's more testimony.
Douglas testifies against his brother, again citing years of bad blood and a sphere of
his brother.
In late July, once again, defense attorneys tried to push back more dates of the trial.
At this point, it was denied, thankfully, because it's been forever.
On September 17th, Robert Durst was actually convicted of the murder of Susan Berman, and
on October 14th, he was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
All appeals have been denied.
Since Susan Berman's murder trial, more accusations of connections between Durst and missing young
ladies have surfaced.
One girl that was known to frequent the health food store that Durst owned, she was actually
seen across the street from the store on the day of her disappearance.
Another girl went missing after she worked a shift at a homeless shelter that Durst was
known to frequent.
He had also been seen dressed as a woman in the girl's family bakery the day that she
disappeared.
There's also been connections to Durst's disposal MO in other counties that he's lived
in over the years as well.
In October, 2021, Robert Durst contracted COVID, and this was exacerbating underlying
medical conditions.
He was placed on a ventilator and pretty much suffered until he ultimately died of cardiac
arrest on January 10th, 2022.
Holy crap!
Okay, there's your birthday.
My birthday!
I know!
Happy birthday!
Oh, so that was like the other day!
Yeah.
Wow!
So, what are the picking cases that have had updates like recently?
Well, you were gonna, we were gonna record that like literally 10 days after he died.
Yeah.
Holy crap!
Well, so he never got convicted of Kathy's murder?
No, he was never convicted of Kathy's murder.
Kathleen McCormick has never been found.
Her parents asked that she be declared legally deceased in July, 2016.
The McCormick family had asked the courts to quote, declare that Kathy died on January
31st, 1982, when she was murdered by her husband Robert Durst.
The court granted the request and Kathleen was declared dead in absentee in 2017.
Oh, that's so awful.
I can't imagine that.
I know.
Never getting that justice or that closure.
World one of a story.
Oh my gosh, I know!
This is literally just the tip of the iceberg.
If you want to like know more, the Jinx documentary is insane.
Yeah.
It's like a four, four, five, or six part docuseries.
It's really good.
That was a really, I don't think, I don't, so I didn't, I recognize the name probably
because it's current.
Yeah.
But I did not know that.
Yeah.
Okay, so wow.
Like his whole life he was a shithead.
Yeah, that's heavy.
And don't let the diagnosis of Asperger's fool you.
That's a very real diagnosis, a very real disorder.
But that does not cause you to act like that.
There's definitely something else going on.
And there's narcissism there.
There's definitely a personality disorder in there.
And the way that he holds himself is like this arrogance that you just really don't
see very often.
Yeah, it's very uncommon that we've seen, not uncommon, but it's different than what
we've seen.
Oh, he's got haunting shark eyes too.
You should see his Wikipedia.
He had.
Oh, yeah, he had.
It's just an incredible story.
And you know, I just, with Kathleen McCormick, I feel so badly for her family that she can't
be brought home.
And like after so long, you know, 82.
That's so sad.
That was a really, really good case though.
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, it's got a lot of twists and turns.
If you have any information about Kathleen McCormick's disappearance or about any of
the girls that they think may be linked to Robert Durst or any of the girls that they
think may be linked to Robert Durst, I'm sure there's some place that you can call and
there's a tip line, I'm sure there is still open or just call your local police and get
that information if you have it.
I mean, no one should have to live life worrying or wondering what happened to their child.
Yeah, it's really sad.
It's awful.
But yeah, he affected a lot of people for sure.
I mean, knowing that like his own brother is terrified of him, that's like, that's scary.
That is scary.
Well, thanks for sharing.
Yeah, it was intense.
Yeah, thank you guys so much for being patient with us yet again.
Now that I am no longer working and I think we have a lot more, I guess, free time, especially
towards the end of the week, we need to get back to doing a case and a case and a mental
breakdown a week.
So we're really going to try to do that.
We're going to put this one out probably, I guess you're going to be hearing this tonight,
Friday night or Saturday morning and then mental breakdown, I'll probably just throw
out on like Monday or Tuesday.
So you don't have to wait that long and then we'll be back with another case next week.
Sweet.
In the meantime, you guys can follow us on Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller.
We have Twitter at KillerDiagnosis, DiagnosingAKiller at gmail.com and if you want to donate
to the Patreon, that is patreon.com slash DiagnosingAKiller.
We're on every platform that you listen to podcasts on.
So if you don't like Apple podcasts, we're on Buzzsprout, we're on Spotify, find us there.
Anything else?
No.
All right, we missed you and we love you.
Love you.
Bye.