Well, hello there! Hello!
I'm Kenna. I'm Koelle.
And welcome back to Diagnosing a Killer.
We are two weeks in a row.
Ah, yeah, it's been a while. We, I think, probably took about two weeks off,
unintentionally the first week and then the second week I got COVID.
And so we had to, I had to quarantine and we were actually going to record the part two,
two days before I tested positive.
I'm glad we didn't because you merely escaped getting sick.
Yeah, I know. So just breathing into each other's mouths when we do this.
So, the whole household isolated and quarantined.
Yeah, and actually, I mean, I was the only one that got it.
I think we did really well because no one else got COVID.
I mean, everyone else felt kind of crappy, but no one else actually tested positive, which is awesome.
So, it sucked for me, but glad I could help.
She's like, are you going to Walmart? Can you give me a puzzle?
Dude, I did two 1000 piece puzzles in like three days by myself.
And it was satisfying at the end, but damn boring.
And I watched all, like the first four seasons of Supernatural.
Like 30 episodes per season.
What? I mean, there's like 16 seasons.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Anyways, hi, we are back and thank you guys for waiting so patiently,
especially since we're in the middle of a two-parter and it's been like two weeks.
I know.
You have the second part.
I feel like I've listened to the last episode like a hundred times.
Right.
Just to like fill some void.
Yeah, but you don't even know what's going on too.
I know.
I'm like, oh, what's going to happen? What's going to happen?
Like the listeners, you're right there. You don't know.
So, oh my gosh, I'm excited.
Before we begin, I wanted to shout out a new Patreon.
We got a new Patreon.
Her name is Kaylee.
So thank you so much Kaylee for donating.
And it's funny because she's probably like, wow, I donated to the Patreon and then these
bitches make me wait two weeks for this.
So I'm sorry about that.
Because I ran away with your money.
But it wasn't intentional.
It was for the safety and health of everybody.
And we are, I am at least on the mend.
I have a little bit of a cough, a little bit of congestion.
So if you hear that in my voice, I'm sorry, but I cannot help it.
It seems like I get sick all the time, right?
Yeah, you're a sickly person.
I am a sickly person.
My immune system is shot.
So thanks Kaylee.
It's super nice to have you.
And we're definitely actually going to work on some merch.
So we're going to be making some stickers.
We're going to be making maybe some t-shirts.
I do have a really cool cricket.
And I have the t-shirt press that I have yet to use.
So I'm really excited to get that go in.
Yeah, I'm excited for that too.
It's going to be a lot of fun.
Yeah, so thanks again.
And for those of you that are wondering, oh, you guys have a Patreon.
I didn't know it is patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer.
So if you'd like to donate, please feel free.
All right.
So we are going to pick up where we left off with Alexander Lewis Franwell.
Pot two.
I'm so excited.
So if you haven't listed in part one, I highly recommend that you do so because there is a lot of information.
And there's a lot of firsthand accounts from Alexander, but you will be able to kind of follow along in part two.
I'll kind of, you know, give you some spark notes about what happened in part one.
So when we last left off, we had realized that Alexander killed three men thinking that they were part of a pedophile ring.
Right.
That first man being Anthony Payne and the other two being twins Dick and Roger Carter.
Okay.
He had killed three of them and then he had spent the night at the Exeter Castle.
And that was when he said that he saw the bears, the ghosts of the bears that had been killed.
And he had claimed to be, he had been bitten by a snake overnight.
I do remember the snake.
I don't remember the bears.
So he had claimed that he was sleeping in a bear pit or that he could see the ghosts of the bears that had been killed there in the past.
Yeah, you're right.
And so the next time that someone encountered him, it was 5 a.m.
And I remember that's where we stopped.
I said his violent streak had not ended.
And you were like, whoa, what?
And then I was like, that's where we're going to stop.
So picking up from there, Alexander had just spent the night at the Exeter Castle.
It's now 5 a.m.
Like I said, he found himself at Rogmont Hotel in Teen Street around again, 5 a.m.
This is where Stasi's Bella Vickius was on duty as an overnight receptionist of the hotel.
Stasi's.
I know Stasi's is a really cool name.
I'm going to say Stasi's because the last name is kind of hard to pronounce.
So after approaching Stasi's Alexander smashed a glass bowl over his head.
And as Stasi's tried to run away, it's like a breakaway glass, but it was real glass.
As Stasi's tried to run away, he was noted as being hit in the head with something sharp.
That's what he realized was happening.
I guess I don't know if he broke the glass and then used a piece of the glass to hit him,
or hit him twice, or if he was just recounting.
Either way he cut him or stopped him.
Yeah.
At this point Alexander was noted as grabbing a butcher knife and attempting to continue this assault on Stasi's.
And this is at a hotel?
Yeah.
So he's like an overnight receptionist of the hotel.
You know, you have someone there 24 hours.
Where do you grab a knife from?
No idea.
I have no idea.
It did not say.
Okay.
Maybe he got it from one of the gentleman's houses that he had previously been at.
That's true because we did talk about the fact that he uses whatever he can find in the moment.
So is it this time that Stasi's rang the alarm, the silent alarm to alert the police, which is, I mean, get on you,
during that attack, imagine having that frame of mind that you can just like make that conscious decision.
And there's actually CCTV footage from this night that shows Alexander chasing the hotel's chef and another receptionist who was female
around the parking lot.
That makes me think that he might have gotten the butcher knife from the kitchen because he had encountered the chef.
Yeah.
So during this time that he was chasing the chef and the receptionist, the female receptionist,
he was holding a large lamp stand as a weapon and he was smashing it into like surrounding cars at the same time he was chasing them with it.
Whoa.
And then there's this kind of like bizarre scene.
Yeah.
And imagine seeing that on the CCTV and you're like, what the hell?
What is going on?
So during this time that he was running around the parking lot chasing these two people, the police eventually arrived.
Of course Stasi's had rang the alarm and they ultimately had to taser Alexander to get him into custody.
Okay.
This would be the end of Alexander's violent streak.
Okay.
So he's done with his crimes.
I know.
It was a lot.
It was a sigh of relief though because you're like, okay, like he's in custody.
Hopefully he won't hurt anybody else.
But didn't they release him like a day before?
We'll talk about that again.
Oh my God.
Following his arrest, he was taken to the Juniper Ward at Warnford Hospital and during his stay in the Juniper Ward, police discovered the body of one Anthony Payne in his own home.
For Anthony Payne's murder, arguably the most damning evidence was the CCTV footage that actually showed Alexander arriving at St. David's station, the train station, on February 10th that same morning.
Which was near Anthony Payne's property.
Yes.
Now the bodies of the twin men, Dick and Roger Carter, were found on February 12th, so two days later.
And Alexander was then arrested on suspicion while still in the Juniper Ward of the hospital.
Okay.
Now his bail application hearing took place on February 18th where it was noted that Alexander was wearing a gray jumper and was escorted by two police officers and two custody guards.
So they had four people escort this man to his bail hearing.
Okay.
I don't know.
I just think that's a little like much for four men.
I understand that this guy has been on suspicion of murder.
He's clearly unpredictable.
Right.
He's chased people around a parking lot with a knife and a lamp.
I think for more, like, for people especially, which seems like a really small community, I think it's more of like, oh, we have this under control.
Yeah, I suppose.
This is an outward, this is a show of control, like I said.
Like it's like, oh, we've caught this bad guy.
He's no longer going to terrorize this town any longer.
But it's also like, you're doing that, like, as if he escaped in the past.
No bitch, you let him go.
So he's not like some mastermind that just knows how to escape police custody.
It sounds like a public relations thing.
It's like something where somebody's like, oh no, like we goofed.
We let him out before we need to show that we're taking this seriously.
Yeah.
Which is gross.
So it wasn't really noted what took place in the bail application hearing, but it seems as though he did not make bail.
He wasn't able to afford it.
So they kept him in the custody at the Juniper Award in the psychiatric unit, which is good.
Now, his preliminary hearing took place on March 21st, so a month and some change later.
And during this time, it was thought that there was no link to Anthony Payne's murder and the murder of the twin brothers.
So not to Alexander, but together.
They didn't think that he had been responsible for all three.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, it wasn't no link between him and Anthony Payne, but it was Anthony Payne and the twins.
They were like, okay, these are two different scenarios.
One is in the miles apart.
Yeah, and not only that, but there's like one person in one house.
There's two people in this one.
Method of operation is different.
It's different, yeah.
Now, following this hearing, it seems as though he was held at Broadmoor Secure Hospital.
So this is a little bit of a different place, kind of similar to the Juniper Award, but I think that it was more of like hospital rather than prison or jail.
And this is where a consultant forensic psychologist, Paul McAllister, found Alexander to be sensitive, intelligent and articulate when he was well.
But when he was ill, he was living in a very frightening dream-like world.
It seems pretty accurate, though, from what we've seen.
I mean, that is like nail on the head.
Well, that's what we talked about, his compassion.
Clearly, he's an animal lover, you know, and he really, you know, in his mind, he thought he was helping people and helping these young women.
And yeah, it's really a tragic story.
But how like that can be amplified due to a mental disorder?
Of course, especially something like schizophrenia spectrum.
Auditory hallucinations is the most common noted symptom of schizophrenia spectrum.
And so, I mean, that's, he is experienced that clearly, audio and auditory and visual he's experiencing.
Later on, Alexander was noted as telling McAllister, quote, I cannot believe no one helped me.
They let me out twice when I was unwell.
So he recognizes like, yo, you shouldn't have let me go, like I'm clearly unwell, but he also didn't have the mental capacity at the time to tell them that, you know?
Like, what are you going to say?
It's so sad.
Again, there has to be like, there has to be, somebody has to be responsible for the negligence.
Of course.
It has to be traced back to someone who is negligent.
We'll hear a lot of different differing opinions on how the police handled this situation before.
Okay.
So Paul McAllister was later noted as saying in court about, in Alexander's defense, quote, he had the clear belief that the police were aware of and sanctioned his actions.
He believed that the police were shortly to arrive to support him.
So like he said earlier, Alexander, when he got out to go to Anthony Payne's house, he was like, I thought the cops were like right behind me.
Yeah.
They were going to come arrest me for doing their due diligence or whatever due diligence.
So this is where we're going to get into the main trial.
During the trial, the prosecution's main argument was that Alexander knew what he was doing was wrong at the time of the murders, so he should be punished for his known crimes.
The defense argues that Alexander was indeed insane at the time of the crimes, and he was not aware that he was acting outside of the law since he thought he was working for the police.
Right.
Pretty cut and dry, you know, stances.
Yeah.
We kind of, you know, heard that and kind of figured that one.
I know you're so anti-defense attorneys, but like...
No.
Do you consider that to be a good thing?
In this situation, I am totally pro-defense attorney because this guy...
This is a specific instance though.
Yeah.
Defense attorneys that like, dude, you know he fucking did it and you still to defend him.
I know that's your job, but I couldn't do that.
I couldn't do that.
I mean...
And they're so convincing sometimes to him like, dude!
Well, there's, I mean, part of having your right to a fair trial is your defense attorney needs to believe you.
Of course.
And if you as a defendant don't feel like you're supported by your attorney, you can call for a mistrial.
I know, and that grinds like you're another attorney that will believe you.
So if they don't believe...
I know.
And quote, if they don't believe in their defendant, then they don't get to participate in that trial.
That like makes me like, boil because it's like, oh yeah, let me just go kill all these people unknowingly and be like,
well, you're not gonna fucking defend me seriously.
Like, you don't believe me?
You don't believe me?
You have to.
Like, you piece of shit?
No, Alexander, I'm talking about a different scenario.
It's just interesting to me that that's how our court system works.
Yeah, of course.
So if you can't see where this is going, the defense is going full out with the insanity plea.
Now, we've talked about the insanity plea a little bit in the past.
I'm gonna talk about it a little bit more, especially since this pertains to the UK and not the US.
It's a little bit different than how we handle things.
So the legal requirements for the insanity defense have varied over the centuries and societies in which this existed, of course.
Here in the US, public outrageous response to successful insanity defenses in high-profile cases has often led to charges that limit the availability of the defense and its likelihood of success.
Like we said recently, it's very rare that it gets proposed and it's more rare that it gets accepted and it works, quote unquote.
Now, of course, this is not a United States case, like I said, but a UK case.
So similarly to the US, insanity in English law is a defense to criminal charges based on the idea that the defendant was unable to understand what he was doing, or that he was unable to understand that what he was doing was wrong.
Now, the defense actually comes in two forms.
One, where the defendant claims he was insane at the time of the crime, and two, where the defendant asserts he is insane at the time of trial.
So in the first situation where the defendant was insane at the time of the crime, the defendant must show that he was either suffering from a disease which damaged the functioning of the mind and led to a defect of the reason that prevented him from understanding what he was doing,
or that he could not tell that what he was doing was wrong.
And in the second situation, the test is whether or not the defendant can differentiate between guilty and not guilty verdicts, instruct counsel, and recognize the charges he is facing, just like what I said.
If successful, the defendant is likely to be detained under the Criminal Procedure Insanity Act of 1964, although judges have a wide discretion as to what to do.
So the judges pretty much like the final say. This is super interesting to me, so I had to put it in here.
So use of insanity as a concept dates from 1324.
Yeah.
This isn't the 1320s.
But it is.
And its criminal application was used until the late 16th century in an almost identical way.
So the insanity in general was insanity as a concept.
In 1324.
In criminal application, it was used until the late 16th century.
Wow.
Yeah.
Isn't that wild?
I mean, we've had brains for the entirety of our human race's existence.
So it makes sense.
You know what I mean?
That this would be a concept that is old AF.
Well, like, it's funny because 1324 was when insanity became a concept.
And in like 1980, people were like, go to the nut house still.
Yeah.
We didn't advance it.
Once love of the cat.
At all.
Like, honestly.
Not at all.
How many centuries later?
It's so true.
I feel like we're only getting to talk about mental health, like as a country and a society.
And like, what?
Yeah.
Since 1320.
I mean, even before then.
Well, yeah.
Probably before then they just didn't have a word for it.
Yeah, exactly.
Now, the defense, if successful in playing insanity for the defendant, either allowed the defendant to return home or let him to being incarcerated until he was granted a royal pardon.
Return home and like, go sleep it off.
Pretty much if the insanity defense worked or was, what is that?
It was accepted.
They would let them go home or they would let them.
Yeah.
Not guilty by reason of insanity initially.
Yes.
Or yeah.
Yeah.
So that, but I mean, I don't mean to make it sound like, oh, just go sleep it off.
But it's like, but I mean, they pretty much, they were found not guilty.
Yeah.
I mean, you just live out the rest of your life without it.
Yeah.
So you either go home until you're no longer insane or you go to prison until you're no longer insane and you get a royal pardon.
I know.
Now, after 1542, a defendant who became insane prior to the trial could not be tried for any crime up to and including high treason.
So after you commit the crime, if you, if you become insane, what a concept, if you become insane all of a sudden, in between you committing the crime on your trial, you can't be charged for anything.
Well, because you don't understand what's going on.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So that was after 1542.
Now, during the 18th century, the test to determine insanity became extremely narrow with defendants required to prove that they could not distinguish between good and evil and that they suffered from a mental disease which made them incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions.
See, I find that to be bullshit though, because I'm like, I call bullshit on that.
I want to say that they're, they're now giving these regulations because too many people would abuse the system.
Of course.
But I also wholeheartedly believe that they realize that they're not making any fucking money.
Yep.
And that, that's what pisses me off.
Yeah.
Like because you, yourself, especially then, they probably didn't have that many tests, you know, to determine whether or not people were quote unquote insane.
Yeah.
And so what I'm saying is like, if too many people were getting off scot-free for murders or whatever you have, you know, assaults, then, you know, they have to like be like, oh, well, we're not making any money anyway.
Yeah.
We can't just let people go.
Yeah.
Because, well, and then, you know, also people that are abusing the system, which was probably a small percentage.
I just, I hate that.
I hate that.
I go, ugh.
Now, keep in mind, this is the 18th century.
So this is what America is just becoming a country.
So like all of this shit happened before we were even alive.
The Boston Tea Party.
Yeah.
Honestly.
Now.
Yeah.
And then people were like, fuck that insanity shit.
We're not doing any of that.
People are going to take responsibility for their actions.
They're just going to murder people in the street.
They automatically had a Boston accent.
Well, they're, I mean, that's, I mean, we're all from.
Now, you might recognize this.
The current, I only can think of now is George Washington with a Boston accent.
Speaking of Boston accents, complete side note.
Shout out Elena from Mordred.
She's never going to listen to this.
But I finally watched the Wizard of Oz for the very first time and now I know what she's
talking about because she loves the Tin Man.
And when she goes, no heart, he goes, yeah, no heart.
No heart.
Just like that.
Oh my God, I love that.
Everything about that.
If I only had a heart.
Yeah.
She was like obsessed with the Tin Man.
And I'm like, no, I get it.
They're all kind of Boston-y though, aren't they?
All of them.
Yeah.
Except for, oh Dorothy.
Oh, I hate that.
Dorothy.
Oh, that was good.
Yeah.
Thanks.
All right, back to the case.
You might recognize this phrase or name.
Now, the current wording for the insanity defeat comes from the Mnotten rules based on the
trial of Daniel Mnotten in 1843.
The defense of insanity has been subject to intense criticism, particularly from the
Butler committee, which noted that the rules were, quote, based on too limited a concept
of the nature of mental disorder.
Highlighting.
Too limited a concept.
Okay.
Yeah.
And the rules were, quote, the outmoded language of the Mnotten rules, which gives rise to problems
of interpretation and that the rules were, quote, based on the now obsolete belief in
the preeminent role of reason in controlling social behavior.
The rules are not, therefore, a satisfactory test of criminal responsibility.
So I mean, all I hear when I hear that is like basically like, how are you going to
prove to me that you're not well?
Literally.
That's so gross.
Literally, yeah.
And if you can't, then sorry.
I'm innocent until proven guilty.
Like why do I have to prove to you that I have a mental disorder?
Especially if you're incapable of expressing that to someone.
Exactly.
Like clearly he was incapable of expressing it to the police that let him, that let him
go, that he was incapable of expressing that he needed to stay.
That he needed to stay.
He knew that he, and probably in his mind that he needed to stay.
But how do you explain that to someone?
Like, unless you say things like Andre Thomas did, like, I'm going to hurt someone.
Yeah.
Please.
But that's, I mean, presents differently in everybody.
Right.
And then some people might be like, well, if you feel like you're going to hurt someone,
what is it, was it Alexander that they're like, oh, if you feel like you're going to
hurt someone or yourself, you need to go to the emergency room.
Oh no, that was Andre Thomas.
Yeah.
You need to go to the emergency room.
Like, cool.
Like, what?
Thanks for that.
No.
Appreciate it.
Now, the committee proposed reform of the law in 1975, followed by a draft bill from
the Law Commission in 1989.
So far, these have both been ignored by successive governments.
1989.
1320.
1989.
Still like, oh, I don't know.
Are they insane?
I don't know.
You got to prove it to me.
You got to prove it to me that you're insane.
Now, that's just a little bit of information about not only the insanity defense, but how
it works in the United Kingdom.
Just to put it into perspective on how unlikely it is that the insanity defense will quote,
unquote, work.
Regardless of the precise legal standard, the insanity defense is rarely raised and even
more rarely successful.
Like I said earlier, this is United States statistics because I couldn't find UK.
But it is used in only about 1% of cases in the United States and is successful less than
25% of the time.
In that 1% of that 1%.
Again, I couldn't find a direct statistic for the United Kingdom, but I'm assuming it's
about the same or even less than ours.
Yeah.
Now, back to the case.
That was just a little bit of sci-fi.
I think it's interesting.
Yeah.
Especially since we're talking about it.
You need to get to understand it a little bit more.
We kind of talk about sometimes in our cases, but to really go into the history of what
it means to have that insanity defense, I think we've only talked about on mental breakdowns.
Of course.
Now, it was noted during the trial that the proposal of the insanity defense was so rare
that they could not remember another instance in which it had been proposed before in the
United Kingdom.
Yeah.
Like, they could not recall like, oh yeah, I remember someone so when-
Oh, it was the case of 89.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So no one alive at that time.
Yeah, I remember.
Back in 1320.
Right.
It's like, what are you doing here?
You're clearly a vampire.
Lord.
Now, during sentencing, Mrs. Justice May described the case as, quote, disturbing on so many
levels, three dead, two injured at the hands of someone floridly psychotic at the time
and therefore not criminally responsible.
Yeah, she does sound like she's like, damn.
That sucks that he's not like being able to be trying.
Damn.
Like, honestly.
Gotta let another one go.
She also said that she would be making a hospital order with restrictions to ensure Alexander,
quote, won't be allowed into the community until agencies are absolutely content it is
okay for him to be released.
Yeah, no, I don't like this woman.
Yeah, sorry.
So she's like, well, that sucks that we can't put you in prison forever, but we're just
going to make sure that you're like kind of in prison forever until you're in prison
forever.
Yeah.
The judge informed the court that prior to returning their verdicts, the jury had passed
her a note raising concerns about the quote, state of psychiatric services in Devon and
the failings in health care in Alexander's case.
The jury knows what the fuck is up.
What about these dumbass cops?
I'll let them go.
The sliding of the note.
Here you go.
Excuse me.
Yeah.
Excuse me.
What about this?
So in a statement, the head of custody for G4S health services, John Allen, said the company,
quote, stood by their decision that, quote, Alexander was not suicidal and did not meet
the requirements of a full mental health act assessment in the one out of hours period.
Remember when they said it was due to the timeframe that they couldn't get him a consult?
Apparently it was Sunday and because it was Sunday, apparently mental health takes a break
and people do not need assessments until the last day.
Come back on Monday, 9am.
Like honestly.
Yeah.
You know, I'm sorry.
Mental health assessments only required during business hours.
Yeah.
Monday through Friday, 9am to 5am.
You can't be insane on the weekends.
Right.
Yeah.
It's just not possible.
Head of major crime at Devon and Cornwall police, Detective Superintendent Mike West
said, quote, we fully accept our responsibilities to look after those detained in our custody
units.
However, it is unreasonable to suggest that police officers or staff in these circumstances
should have overridden decisions made by those who are trained, qualified and skilled
in healthcare.
Oh, you mean the one person that spoke to Alexander on the phone for 12 minutes?
Let's not override that at all because you can't see what, like you're seeing what they
can't.
Right.
Like, this is the last resort?
Maybe they should have done something about it?
Like, they're like, okay, well, the mental health facility isn't going to take him, but
he needs to be somewhere.
Like, you can't just like, they can't just put him back on the street.
This is one of those cases where it's like, I'd rather you overreact than underreact
and someone dies.
Like, I would rather you be like, my bad.
Like, I didn't mean to overstep.
I thought that he was showing signs of this and that and the other.
Yeah.
Sorry, you know, release him.
Then like, oh yeah, we released him and he killed three people because I didn't want
to overstep.
Right.
No, it's because you're fucking lazy.
Honestly, that's the way I feel.
You didn't want to do the paperwork and you didn't want to have to deal with somebody
who was clearly having a mental episode.
Yeah.
The Devon and Cornwall police also responded to the accusations.
Quote, Lewis Rinewell was released on police bail so additional inquiries could be completed
in order to refer the case back to CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service.
A decision to release the detainee on bail was not based solely on the classification
of the offense, but alongside wider circumstances and information available.
Quote, during his time in custody on February 8th and 9th, Lewis Rinewell had a number of
interactions with medical professionals at the request of police, none of which resulted
in a recommendation of a full mental health assessment because it was Sunday.
That wasn't a quote.
That's just my excuse.
It was Sunday.
Quote, on February 9th, the duty custody inspector noticed concerns of Lewis Rinewell and an
NHS National Health Service liaison and mental health practitioner were called.
They conducted an assessment over the telephone and recommended he be seen by the emergency
duty team over the telephone.
Quote, the team requested a mental health professional to see Lewis Rinewell but was
not available until the following day, so recommended that an alternative option was
to wait for the forensic medical examiner to attend.
A forensic medical examiner is not the same thing as a mental health liaison.
Hold on to him.
Nobody can see him until the next day.
Hold on to him.
Yes, literally, it's not any thing.
Oh, you're having a schizophrenic episode, my...
Oh, yeah, alright.
Just see you tomorrow.
Yeah, come on back now.
Come on back now.
Pop in tomorrow, 9 a.m.
Honestly, though, quote, the officers arranged for an assessment to be carried out by the
forensic medical examiner, a qualified doctor.
I doubt that.
Quote, he observed no evidence of acute mental health issues warranting a hospital admission.
Well, even though he's saying he needs help.
And his mom is calling, and the gentleman from the ranch is calling, saying, he is dangerous.
Like, I am worried for my safety and I'm worried for his safety if he releases it.
This is still a quote from the police department.
Quote, a custody pre-release plan was drawn up and on 10 February, Lewis Rinewell was
provided with paperwork to enable him access to the liaison and diversion services after
his release.
He doesn't understand what's happening.
So yeah, just give him some paperwork to fill out and he'll figure it out from there.
Hallucinations, visual and audio hallucinations, the guy doesn't know what's going on.
That's like, here's some paperwork for you to understand.
Go to the ER.
Like, makes no sense.
This is still a quote.
We could not have delayed his holding time any longer as to have done such a thing would
be unjustified and unnecessary based on the medical advice and custody time limits.
You can only hold someone for so long if they're insane unless they-
They can't even hold-
Like, you're telling me that they're saying that they couldn't hold them overnight?
Yeah.
Bullshit.
Literally.
People that are, you know, on self-harm watch, they're usually required, at least in the
US, I think it's 72 hours.
And you're telling me that a healthcare professional, quote unquote, or a doctor, quote unquote-
They didn't want to do with him.
Be there until the morning and you can't hold him that long?
They didn't want to deal with him.
Remember I said in part one that he had caused damage to the cell that he was being held
in?
Yeah.
They were probably like, fuck this guy, he's destroying our shit.
We don't want to keep him.
That is so ignorant and negligent.
It is.
Like, now by the end of the trial, the jury agreed the insanity defense could apply to
Alexander and he was found not guilty by a recent of insanity for all three of us.
What?
I just got goosebumps.
Right?
Well, I mean, but in this case though, not to diminish what the victims went through,
my heart absolutely goes out to them and their families.
I truly believe that Alexander is a victim in this as well.
I feel like if he had gotten help, he wouldn't have done that.
If they didn't release him that night, this wouldn't have happened.
I agree with that.
Yeah.
And he clearly was having, like we said, hallucinations and was clearly dealing with
that.
Yeah.
And the fact that these people literally just tried to brush him under a rug.
Can you imagine how many times that happens on a daily basis?
Oh, all the time.
And all these crimes that could be prevented if someone would just fucking open their damn
eyes and listen.
Now following the trial, Mr. Payne's family said that they were, quote, still profoundly
shocked and described the victims as, quote, gentle, kind and caring gentlemen.
The family of the Carter brothers said that they were, quote, quiet twins who loved the
outdoors, wildlife and bird watching and, quote, were born, lived and died at that house and
on Cowick Lane.
Wow.
Now, due to the decision of the jury and judge, Alexander is currently being held at
Broadmoor Security Hospital until doctors decided safe to release him.
They're finally giving him a mental health assessment.
Oh yeah.
You just only, like, maimed two people and chased and terrorized other people and killed
three people.
Yeah.
Oh, finally, we're going to pay attention.
Mm-hmm.
Now that it's costing us money, honestly.
Not providing us money.
The most recent thing that I saw that was posted about the case was in February of 2020.
So about a year, two years.
Shit.
I keep thinking it's 2020 still.
Mm-hmm.
And it states that Alexander is still being held at this hospital.
Mm-hmm.
But that's the case of Alexander Lewis-Ranwell.
Wow.
And it was a lot of information, but I think it was really important to add all of those
direct quotes because it really shows not only Alex's basic understanding of what he's
going through in his attempt to get himself help, but the negligence of the fucking police
department that was, like, well, sorry, it's Sunday.
Well, he clearly has a grasp on it.
I'm sure those interviews happened after he got help in medication and, you know, had
a routine.
But he sounds like he knows exactly what he was experiencing.
And again, then we talked about a better understanding of your own mental disorders,
how, you know, your life can improve because you know what the signs and symptoms are.
So I mean, that's really fucking sad.
It is really sad.
I mean, it's for everyone involved.
Even the couple, Mr. Ellis and his wife.
Oh, Mr. Ellis.
We couldn't remember his name really.
I wish you guys knew.
Even Mr. Ellis and his wife, I mean, and the people from the hotel afterwards, they weren't
killed over the, you know, altercations, but they definitely felt the impact from his
mental health.
And God, it just breaks my heart because, again, I truly, truly believe if the police
had not released him that night, that would, none of that would have happened.
And he would have been able to get his mental health consult and assessment and been on medication.
And it reminds me of Richard Chase.
He was on medication for paranoid schizophrenia, which was diagnosed back then.
And it was working and he was doing great.
And then his mom decided to wean him off of it and then down the hill.
Not to say that you can, can't live with schizophrenia and not be on medication.
But in these specific cases, the medication was the key and the assessments were the key.
And unfortunately they just slipped through the cracks.
It's incredible to me, all the places that Alex ended up in and how many chances there
were for somebody to say something or do something, instead of being probably judgmental and being
like, okay, this guy's crazy or this guy's drunk or whatever.
Honestly.
And again, it goes back to that thing that we've said, like when you see a transient person
on the street that's talking to themselves or, you know, interacting kind of funnily
or whatever it is, our first reaction is like, ew, gross or like whatever.
And they're dealing with something and a lot of the resources, a lot of people are just
going to dismiss it or not want to be around it, you know, instead of really looking introspectively
and being like, okay, that person probably deals with something.
Yeah, of course.
And that's like, I try so hard to kind of use my compassion in those instances and my perspective,
when I do see something like that, you know, if I'm with a friend that makes an off putting
comment, I'm like, hey, you know, like, that's what I'm called for.
Like you don't know what that person's experiencing.
If anything other story.
If anything, it just breaks my heart now.
Yeah, because I'm like, man, you know, if the healthcare system, mental health care
system was a little bit better, that person might have somewhere to go.
Exactly.
I mean, that's like one of our main goals of doing this, you know, we've talked about
it before, but like it like normalized.
Oh, there's my COVID coming out.
So normalize.
Dammit.
Normalize talking about mental health and mental health, mental illness, not mental health,
like normalize talking about that.
That is like, I was watching Dr. Thill yesterday with mom and dad and they say like, I knew
this, but it's like 80 plus percent of Americans suffer from some sort of mental health, mental
health issue, like anxiety is the most prevalent mental health issue in America.
Everyone has that shit, honestly.
And that's so different than, I mean, my anxiety makes me feel like I'm having symptoms of
a heart attack.
Yeah.
Schizophrenia spectrum makes you feel like you are, you have a hot auditory hallucinations
or visual hallucinations.
It's not really far off from the side effects of anxiety.
Yeah, for sure.
I've definitely been trying to practice eliminating certain anxieties for my life.
So I've been like becoming a little bit more of a recluse, but I kind of like it.
Dude, same.
I kind of love it.
It's kind of nice to not have to deal with certain things.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
I'm like really freeing experience.
It really is.
The more that people not only try to be kinder to each other and really try to look through
the perspective of another person, I feel like I'm more acutely aware of where other
people might be at.
And so even yesterday, I was texting a friend of mine and that person's going through something
or whatever, but I didn't ask them specifically what's going on or whatever.
I was just like, you good?
Yeah.
And they said, I'm here for you, you know, whatever, like you good?
But I didn't specifically ask them about that thing that might talk to me about it.
Talk to me about this specific thing because I know it's giving you anxiety.
Yeah, I didn't do that.
I didn't do that.
I was like, I didn't want to upset them, but I was like, yeah, are you good?
So that was enough.
And then they were like, I am like, thank you for asking.
Yeah.
And that's sometimes that's all it takes, honestly, just to reach out.
And even if you're like, I think the best thing that I like to practice for myself is
if I know that someone's going through something like perfect example, two of my childhood friends
lost one of their parents each this past week.
And I just reached out and I just said, thinking about you and your family love you, but I
wasn't expecting a response.
Sometimes all it takes is you to just reach out.
And if you don't get a response back, don't take it personally, that person's going through
something.
All you have to say is, you know what, I'm here for you.
Love you.
I don't think you need to talk or what's going on.
You know, thinking about you.
And sometimes that's all it fucking takes, honestly.
I agree with that.
I don't get offended if I don't get a response.
Yeah, same.
I mean, clearly you're like that person's going through something.
And it might not be a death.
It might be something different, but still, you never know.
That's the biggest thing.
That being said, normalize, again, normalize.
Normalize doing something for yourself.
I challenge every single person that's listening.
Do something for yourself that makes your life easier.
Do not use me as an example.
But I quit my job recently because it was one of the biggest stressors in my life.
Seriously.
And I've honestly, with COVID, it kind of gave me a glimpse of what life is going to be like
when I'm no longer working there because I'm still within my two weeks.
And it was amazing.
I was like, oh my gosh, like I am so less stressed because I'm not working there anymore.
And I know that the end is near.
Like I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
And normalize doing something for yourself.
It may not be quitting your job.
It may be getting up in the morning and going for a walk or watching your favorite show
when it comes on and not having to record it and watch it later.
I like to plug my phone in and another room and then leave it there.
Yes.
It's like one of my favorite things.
And I'll turn my watch off and everything.
And I'll be like, oh, I shaved my legs the other day for the first time.
And like, I don't have a lot of body hair, so it doesn't grow very fast.
But I shaved my legs for the first time in like two months.
And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
And it's just, seriously, it's the little thing sometimes.
It really is.
We kind of went off on a tangent, but we haven't seen you guys or talked to each other.
No, I think it does feel good.
Everything.
That being said, again, we are going to post this one, hopefully by the end of the week,
and we're going to get your mental breakdown recorded and posted hopefully.
But then we're going to be on another week, hiatus, because we're going to New York.
So we may not have another episode after the mental breakdown for probably a week and a
half, but we're going to give you an advance this time.
What if we record in New York?
That would be cool.
That would be really cool.
I'm bringing a big suitcase.
I could bring my stuff.
Yeah, I'm bringing a big suitcase.
Am I a check bag?
That might be kind of fun.
We should record in New York.
We can interview Stimax because he'll be with us.
Oh my God, let's record in New York.
That sounds like fun.
Okay, we're going to record in New York.
We just decided.
You heard it now folks.
Maybe we'll do a New York case since we're in New York.
What if we do something in the building that we're staying in?
It's my turn too.
Look up something that happened right next to where we're staying.
We can freak ourselves out.
Empire State Building.
It's going to be really cold.
If you guys are in New York, don't like to hang out with us because of COVID, but also
like email us and let us know.
If you have a case in New York, if you live there and you want us to talk about it, hell
yeah, let us know.
That would be fun.
I'm so excited.
I have never been anywhere farther north than Colorado.
This would be the farthest north I've ever been.
Well, no, I've been to Michigan.
I've been to Ohio.
I've been to Maryland.
Yeah.
You've been to a bunch of places.
But New York is the first for both of us.
I know.
I'm so excited.
I want to go to Maine.
Dude, me, I've always wanted to go to Maine.
I just want to see those giant jetty rocks that they have, like light houses and stuff
like that.
Oh my God, I didn't even think about the water in New York.
You're going to have to bring your camera.
Yeah, I'm down.
Well, my phone is just as good as my camera now, you know.
Well, that's true.
And you don't have to pack an extra bag.
Yeah, that's true.
Anyways, people don't care about our plans like we said last time.
We don't kind of care about our plans.
Okay, well we're...
God dang it.
It's because we're famous.
We are totally famous.
If you didn't see the news segment, go look it up.
Do you hear my voice right now?
I know.
It really is me.
Yeah.
Hi.
It's all the cream from the coffee.
Dude, I had a large coffee.
I think that's why I'm like talking 100 miles an hour.
By the way, I noticed when I listened back that I talk...
I mean, I know I talk really fast, but I'm really trying to slow it down for you guys
and really try to be in the moment.
So if it sounds like I'm rushing through things, I'm really not.
That's just how I talk and I'm sorry.
If you can't keep up, please let me know when I will try my hardest to slow down in the next
episodes.
But I think I've been doing good the last couple of months.
I think it's okay.
Yeah.
I think halfway through the coffee kind of hits and then you're like, da-da-da-da.
I mean, me too.
I'm the same way.
I mean, when you go off script and you start talking, like not reading, it's like you
can talk so much faster because you're thinking you're not reading.
Right.
Your brain's just going a million miles an hour.
Anyways, we love you guys.
Thank you so much for being patient with us in the last week and a half.
We both...
I mean, you didn't get COVID, but I did.
So hopefully we won't get sick.
I still won't get sick because I didn't want to.
But hopefully we'll be fine, as I'm saying.
New York has the vaccine requirement and mask requirement everywhere.
So I'm so in love with that.
That'll be good.
In the meantime, you guys can follow us on Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller.
We also have Twitter at KillerDiagnosis, patreon.com slash DiagnosingAKiller.
If you want to email us, it's diagnosingakiller at gmail.com.
And we'll be making stickers pretty soon.
And hopefully sure.
That'll be fun.
Yeah.
And in New York.
I'm so excited.
Nah, nah, nah.
Seriously, if you guys are in New York, hit us up and we'll shout you out in the next
episode.
Yeah.
We'll be the people that I don't know.
No.
Not yet.
Could you imagine we get in New York and we're famous?
Oh my god, that'd be amazing.
We're like, what's on the cheese?
We're like, hey guys, come on, come on, come on.
I don't even know what we look like.
Well, maybe if they saw the Instagram or something.
I never look like that.
If you saw us right now, I'm wearing my Grey's Anatomy sweatshirt that Ka-Won got me from
Christmas.
It's so cute.
I'm wearing my RuPaul one that I got from Vegas.
I love it.
All right, we love you guys.
Love you.
Bye.