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Well, hello there! Hello!

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I'm Kenna. I'm Koelle.

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And welcome back to Diagnosing a Killer.

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We are two weeks in a row.

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Ah, yeah, it's been a while. We, I think, probably took about two weeks off,

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unintentionally the first week and then the second week I got COVID.

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And so we had to, I had to quarantine and we were actually going to record the part two,

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two days before I tested positive.

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I'm glad we didn't because you merely escaped getting sick.

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Yeah, I know. So just breathing into each other's mouths when we do this.

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So, the whole household isolated and quarantined.

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Yeah, and actually, I mean, I was the only one that got it.

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I think we did really well because no one else got COVID.

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I mean, everyone else felt kind of crappy, but no one else actually tested positive, which is awesome.

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So, it sucked for me, but glad I could help.

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She's like, are you going to Walmart? Can you give me a puzzle?

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Dude, I did two 1000 piece puzzles in like three days by myself.

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And it was satisfying at the end, but damn boring.

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And I watched all, like the first four seasons of Supernatural.

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Like 30 episodes per season.

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What? I mean, there's like 16 seasons.

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Yeah.

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But yeah.

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Anyways, hi, we are back and thank you guys for waiting so patiently,

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especially since we're in the middle of a two-parter and it's been like two weeks.

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I know.

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You have the second part.

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I feel like I've listened to the last episode like a hundred times.

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Right.

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Just to like fill some void.

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Yeah, but you don't even know what's going on too.

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I know.

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I'm like, oh, what's going to happen? What's going to happen?

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Like the listeners, you're right there. You don't know.

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So, oh my gosh, I'm excited.

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Before we begin, I wanted to shout out a new Patreon.

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We got a new Patreon.

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Her name is Kaylee.

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So thank you so much Kaylee for donating.

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And it's funny because she's probably like, wow, I donated to the Patreon and then these

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bitches make me wait two weeks for this.

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So I'm sorry about that.

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Because I ran away with your money.

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But it wasn't intentional.

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It was for the safety and health of everybody.

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And we are, I am at least on the mend.

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I have a little bit of a cough, a little bit of congestion.

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So if you hear that in my voice, I'm sorry, but I cannot help it.

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It seems like I get sick all the time, right?

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Yeah, you're a sickly person.

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I am a sickly person.

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My immune system is shot.

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So thanks Kaylee.

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It's super nice to have you.

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And we're definitely actually going to work on some merch.

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So we're going to be making some stickers.

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We're going to be making maybe some t-shirts.

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I do have a really cool cricket.

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And I have the t-shirt press that I have yet to use.

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So I'm really excited to get that go in.

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Yeah, I'm excited for that too.

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It's going to be a lot of fun.

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Yeah, so thanks again.

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And for those of you that are wondering, oh, you guys have a Patreon.

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I didn't know it is patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer.

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So if you'd like to donate, please feel free.

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All right.

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So we are going to pick up where we left off with Alexander Lewis Franwell.

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Pot two.

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I'm so excited.

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So if you haven't listed in part one, I highly recommend that you do so because there is a lot of information.

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And there's a lot of firsthand accounts from Alexander, but you will be able to kind of follow along in part two.

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I'll kind of, you know, give you some spark notes about what happened in part one.

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So when we last left off, we had realized that Alexander killed three men thinking that they were part of a pedophile ring.

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Right.

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That first man being Anthony Payne and the other two being twins Dick and Roger Carter.

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Okay.

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He had killed three of them and then he had spent the night at the Exeter Castle.

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And that was when he said that he saw the bears, the ghosts of the bears that had been killed.

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And he had claimed to be, he had been bitten by a snake overnight.

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I do remember the snake.

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I don't remember the bears.

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So he had claimed that he was sleeping in a bear pit or that he could see the ghosts of the bears that had been killed there in the past.

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Yeah, you're right.

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And so the next time that someone encountered him, it was 5 a.m.

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And I remember that's where we stopped.

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I said his violent streak had not ended.

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And you were like, whoa, what?

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And then I was like, that's where we're going to stop.

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So picking up from there, Alexander had just spent the night at the Exeter Castle.

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It's now 5 a.m.

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Like I said, he found himself at Rogmont Hotel in Teen Street around again, 5 a.m.

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This is where Stasi's Bella Vickius was on duty as an overnight receptionist of the hotel.

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Stasi's.

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I know Stasi's is a really cool name.

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I'm going to say Stasi's because the last name is kind of hard to pronounce.

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So after approaching Stasi's Alexander smashed a glass bowl over his head.

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And as Stasi's tried to run away, it's like a breakaway glass, but it was real glass.

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As Stasi's tried to run away, he was noted as being hit in the head with something sharp.

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That's what he realized was happening.

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I guess I don't know if he broke the glass and then used a piece of the glass to hit him,

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or hit him twice, or if he was just recounting.

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Either way he cut him or stopped him.

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Yeah.

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At this point Alexander was noted as grabbing a butcher knife and attempting to continue this assault on Stasi's.

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And this is at a hotel?

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Yeah.

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So he's like an overnight receptionist of the hotel.

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You know, you have someone there 24 hours.

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Where do you grab a knife from?

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No idea.

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I have no idea.

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It did not say.

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Okay.

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Maybe he got it from one of the gentleman's houses that he had previously been at.

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That's true because we did talk about the fact that he uses whatever he can find in the moment.

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So is it this time that Stasi's rang the alarm, the silent alarm to alert the police, which is, I mean, get on you,

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during that attack, imagine having that frame of mind that you can just like make that conscious decision.

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And there's actually CCTV footage from this night that shows Alexander chasing the hotel's chef and another receptionist who was female

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around the parking lot.

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That makes me think that he might have gotten the butcher knife from the kitchen because he had encountered the chef.

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Yeah.

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So during this time that he was chasing the chef and the receptionist, the female receptionist,

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he was holding a large lamp stand as a weapon and he was smashing it into like surrounding cars at the same time he was chasing them with it.

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Whoa.

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And then there's this kind of like bizarre scene.

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Yeah.

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And imagine seeing that on the CCTV and you're like, what the hell?

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What is going on?

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So during this time that he was running around the parking lot chasing these two people, the police eventually arrived.

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Of course Stasi's had rang the alarm and they ultimately had to taser Alexander to get him into custody.

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Okay.

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This would be the end of Alexander's violent streak.

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Okay.

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So he's done with his crimes.

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I know.

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It was a lot.

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It was a sigh of relief though because you're like, okay, like he's in custody.

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Hopefully he won't hurt anybody else.

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But didn't they release him like a day before?

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We'll talk about that again.

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Oh my God.

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Following his arrest, he was taken to the Juniper Ward at Warnford Hospital and during his stay in the Juniper Ward, police discovered the body of one Anthony Payne in his own home.

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For Anthony Payne's murder, arguably the most damning evidence was the CCTV footage that actually showed Alexander arriving at St. David's station, the train station, on February 10th that same morning.

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Which was near Anthony Payne's property.

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Yes.

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Now the bodies of the twin men, Dick and Roger Carter, were found on February 12th, so two days later.

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And Alexander was then arrested on suspicion while still in the Juniper Ward of the hospital.

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Okay.

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Now his bail application hearing took place on February 18th where it was noted that Alexander was wearing a gray jumper and was escorted by two police officers and two custody guards.

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So they had four people escort this man to his bail hearing.

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Okay.

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I don't know.

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I just think that's a little like much for four men.

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I understand that this guy has been on suspicion of murder.

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He's clearly unpredictable.

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Right.

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He's chased people around a parking lot with a knife and a lamp.

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I think for more, like, for people especially, which seems like a really small community, I think it's more of like, oh, we have this under control.

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Yeah, I suppose.

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This is an outward, this is a show of control, like I said.

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Like it's like, oh, we've caught this bad guy.

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He's no longer going to terrorize this town any longer.

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But it's also like, you're doing that, like, as if he escaped in the past.

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No bitch, you let him go.

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So he's not like some mastermind that just knows how to escape police custody.

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It sounds like a public relations thing.

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It's like something where somebody's like, oh no, like we goofed.

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We let him out before we need to show that we're taking this seriously.

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Yeah.

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Which is gross.

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So it wasn't really noted what took place in the bail application hearing, but it seems as though he did not make bail.

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He wasn't able to afford it.

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So they kept him in the custody at the Juniper Award in the psychiatric unit, which is good.

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Now, his preliminary hearing took place on March 21st, so a month and some change later.

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And during this time, it was thought that there was no link to Anthony Payne's murder and the murder of the twin brothers.

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So not to Alexander, but together.

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They didn't think that he had been responsible for all three.

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Oh, I see.

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Yeah, it wasn't no link between him and Anthony Payne, but it was Anthony Payne and the twins.

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They were like, okay, these are two different scenarios.

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One is in the miles apart.

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Yeah, and not only that, but there's like one person in one house.

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There's two people in this one.

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Method of operation is different.

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It's different, yeah.

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Now, following this hearing, it seems as though he was held at Broadmoor Secure Hospital.

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So this is a little bit of a different place, kind of similar to the Juniper Award, but I think that it was more of like hospital rather than prison or jail.

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And this is where a consultant forensic psychologist, Paul McAllister, found Alexander to be sensitive, intelligent and articulate when he was well.

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But when he was ill, he was living in a very frightening dream-like world.

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It seems pretty accurate, though, from what we've seen.

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I mean, that is like nail on the head.

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Well, that's what we talked about, his compassion.

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Clearly, he's an animal lover, you know, and he really, you know, in his mind, he thought he was helping people and helping these young women.

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And yeah, it's really a tragic story.

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But how like that can be amplified due to a mental disorder?

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Of course, especially something like schizophrenia spectrum.

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Auditory hallucinations is the most common noted symptom of schizophrenia spectrum.

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And so, I mean, that's, he is experienced that clearly, audio and auditory and visual he's experiencing.

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Later on, Alexander was noted as telling McAllister, quote, I cannot believe no one helped me.

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They let me out twice when I was unwell.

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So he recognizes like, yo, you shouldn't have let me go, like I'm clearly unwell, but he also didn't have the mental capacity at the time to tell them that, you know?

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Like, what are you going to say?

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It's so sad.

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Again, there has to be like, there has to be, somebody has to be responsible for the negligence.

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Of course.

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It has to be traced back to someone who is negligent.

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We'll hear a lot of different differing opinions on how the police handled this situation before.

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Okay.

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So Paul McAllister was later noted as saying in court about, in Alexander's defense, quote, he had the clear belief that the police were aware of and sanctioned his actions.

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He believed that the police were shortly to arrive to support him.

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So like he said earlier, Alexander, when he got out to go to Anthony Payne's house, he was like, I thought the cops were like right behind me.

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Yeah.

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They were going to come arrest me for doing their due diligence or whatever due diligence.

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So this is where we're going to get into the main trial.

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During the trial, the prosecution's main argument was that Alexander knew what he was doing was wrong at the time of the murders, so he should be punished for his known crimes.

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The defense argues that Alexander was indeed insane at the time of the crimes, and he was not aware that he was acting outside of the law since he thought he was working for the police.

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Right.

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Pretty cut and dry, you know, stances.

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Yeah.

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We kind of, you know, heard that and kind of figured that one.

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I know you're so anti-defense attorneys, but like...

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No.

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Do you consider that to be a good thing?

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In this situation, I am totally pro-defense attorney because this guy...

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This is a specific instance though.

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Yeah.

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Defense attorneys that like, dude, you know he fucking did it and you still to defend him.

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I know that's your job, but I couldn't do that.

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I couldn't do that.

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I mean...

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And they're so convincing sometimes to him like, dude!

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Well, there's, I mean, part of having your right to a fair trial is your defense attorney needs to believe you.

234
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000
Of course.

235
00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:02,000
And if you as a defendant don't feel like you're supported by your attorney, you can call for a mistrial.

236
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,000
I know, and that grinds like you're another attorney that will believe you.

237
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000
So if they don't believe...

238
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,000
I know.

239
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:17,000
And quote, if they don't believe in their defendant, then they don't get to participate in that trial.

240
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:24,000
That like makes me like, boil because it's like, oh yeah, let me just go kill all these people unknowingly and be like,

241
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,000
well, you're not gonna fucking defend me seriously.

242
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,000
Like, you don't believe me?

243
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,000
You don't believe me?

244
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,000
You have to.

245
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,000
Like, you piece of shit?

246
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,000
No, Alexander, I'm talking about a different scenario.

247
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,000
It's just interesting to me that that's how our court system works.

248
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,000
Yeah, of course.

249
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:46,000
So if you can't see where this is going, the defense is going full out with the insanity plea.

250
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,000
Now, we've talked about the insanity plea a little bit in the past.

251
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,000
I'm gonna talk about it a little bit more, especially since this pertains to the UK and not the US.

252
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,000
It's a little bit different than how we handle things.

253
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:05,000
So the legal requirements for the insanity defense have varied over the centuries and societies in which this existed, of course.

254
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:16,000
Here in the US, public outrageous response to successful insanity defenses in high-profile cases has often led to charges that limit the availability of the defense and its likelihood of success.

255
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:24,000
Like we said recently, it's very rare that it gets proposed and it's more rare that it gets accepted and it works, quote unquote.

256
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,000
Now, of course, this is not a United States case, like I said, but a UK case.

257
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:40,000
So similarly to the US, insanity in English law is a defense to criminal charges based on the idea that the defendant was unable to understand what he was doing, or that he was unable to understand that what he was doing was wrong.

258
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,000
Now, the defense actually comes in two forms.

259
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,000
One, where the defendant claims he was insane at the time of the crime, and two, where the defendant asserts he is insane at the time of trial.

260
00:14:50,000 --> 00:15:03,000
So in the first situation where the defendant was insane at the time of the crime, the defendant must show that he was either suffering from a disease which damaged the functioning of the mind and led to a defect of the reason that prevented him from understanding what he was doing,

261
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,000
or that he could not tell that what he was doing was wrong.

262
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:16,000
And in the second situation, the test is whether or not the defendant can differentiate between guilty and not guilty verdicts, instruct counsel, and recognize the charges he is facing, just like what I said.

263
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:27,000
If successful, the defendant is likely to be detained under the Criminal Procedure Insanity Act of 1964, although judges have a wide discretion as to what to do.

264
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,000
So the judges pretty much like the final say. This is super interesting to me, so I had to put it in here.

265
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,000
So use of insanity as a concept dates from 1324.

266
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,000
Yeah.

267
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,000
This isn't the 1320s.

268
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,000
But it is.

269
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,000
But it is.

270
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:47,000
And its criminal application was used until the late 16th century in an almost identical way.

271
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:53,000
So the insanity in general was insanity as a concept.

272
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,000
In 1324.

273
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,000
In criminal application, it was used until the late 16th century.

274
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,000
Wow.

275
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,000
Yeah.

276
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,000
Isn't that wild?

277
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,000
I mean, we've had brains for the entirety of our human race's existence.

278
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,000
So it makes sense.

279
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,000
You know what I mean?

280
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,000
That this would be a concept that is old AF.

281
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,000
Well, like, it's funny because 1324 was when insanity became a concept.

282
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,000
And in like 1980, people were like, go to the nut house still.

283
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,000
Yeah.

284
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,000
We didn't advance it.

285
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,000
Once love of the cat.

286
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,000
At all.

287
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,000
At all.

288
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000
Like, honestly.

289
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,000
Not at all.

290
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,000
How many centuries later?

291
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000
It's so true.

292
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:37,000
I feel like we're only getting to talk about mental health, like as a country and a society.

293
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,000
And like, what?

294
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:40,000
Yeah.

295
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,000
Since 1320.

296
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,000
I mean, even before then.

297
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,000
Well, yeah.

298
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,000
Probably before then they just didn't have a word for it.

299
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,000
Yeah, exactly.

300
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:58,000
Now, the defense, if successful in playing insanity for the defendant, either allowed the defendant to return home or let him to being incarcerated until he was granted a royal pardon.

301
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,000
Return home and like, go sleep it off.

302
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,000
Pretty much if the insanity defense worked or was, what is that?

303
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,000
It was accepted.

304
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,000
They would let them go home or they would let them.

305
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,000
Yeah.

306
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,000
Not guilty by reason of insanity initially.

307
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,000
Yes.

308
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,000
Or yeah.

309
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,000
Yeah.

310
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,000
So that, but I mean, I don't mean to make it sound like, oh, just go sleep it off.

311
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,000
But it's like, but I mean, they pretty much, they were found not guilty.

312
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,000
Yeah.

313
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000
I mean, you just live out the rest of your life without it.

314
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,000
Yeah.

315
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:32,000
So you either go home until you're no longer insane or you go to prison until you're no longer insane and you get a royal pardon.

316
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,000
I know.

317
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:43,000
Now, after 1542, a defendant who became insane prior to the trial could not be tried for any crime up to and including high treason.

318
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:53,000
So after you commit the crime, if you, if you become insane, what a concept, if you become insane all of a sudden, in between you committing the crime on your trial, you can't be charged for anything.

319
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,000
Well, because you don't understand what's going on.

320
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,000
Yeah.

321
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,000
Exactly.

322
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,000
So that was after 1542.

323
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:14,000
Now, during the 18th century, the test to determine insanity became extremely narrow with defendants required to prove that they could not distinguish between good and evil and that they suffered from a mental disease which made them incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions.

324
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,000
See, I find that to be bullshit though, because I'm like, I call bullshit on that.

325
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,000
I want to say that they're, they're now giving these regulations because too many people would abuse the system.

326
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,000
Of course.

327
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,000
But I also wholeheartedly believe that they realize that they're not making any fucking money.

328
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,000
Yep.

329
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,000
And that, that's what pisses me off.

330
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,000
Yeah.

331
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:40,000
Like because you, yourself, especially then, they probably didn't have that many tests, you know, to determine whether or not people were quote unquote insane.

332
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,000
Yeah.

333
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:52,000
And so what I'm saying is like, if too many people were getting off scot-free for murders or whatever you have, you know, assaults, then, you know, they have to like be like, oh, well, we're not making any money anyway.

334
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,000
Yeah.

335
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,000
We can't just let people go.

336
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,000
Yeah.

337
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:02,000
Because, well, and then, you know, also people that are abusing the system, which was probably a small percentage.

338
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,000
I just, I hate that.

339
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,000
I hate that.

340
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:06,000
I go, ugh.

341
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,000
Now, keep in mind, this is the 18th century.

342
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,000
So this is what America is just becoming a country.

343
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,000
So like all of this shit happened before we were even alive.

344
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,000
The Boston Tea Party.

345
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,000
Yeah.

346
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,000
Honestly.

347
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,000
Now.

348
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:20,000
Yeah.

349
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,000
And then people were like, fuck that insanity shit.

350
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,000
We're not doing any of that.

351
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,000
People are going to take responsibility for their actions.

352
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,000
They're just going to murder people in the street.

353
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,000
They automatically had a Boston accent.

354
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,000
Well, they're, I mean, that's, I mean, we're all from.

355
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,000
Now, you might recognize this.

356
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:41,000
The current, I only can think of now is George Washington with a Boston accent.

357
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaking of Boston accents, complete side note.

358
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,000
Shout out Elena from Mordred.

359
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,000
She's never going to listen to this.

360
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,500
But I finally watched the Wizard of Oz for the very first time and now I know what she's

361
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:53,000
talking about because she loves the Tin Man.

362
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,000
And when she goes, no heart, he goes, yeah, no heart.

363
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,000
No heart.

364
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,000
Just like that.

365
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,000
Oh my God, I love that.

366
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,000
Everything about that.

367
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,000
If I only had a heart.

368
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,000
Yeah.

369
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,000
She was like obsessed with the Tin Man.

370
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,000
And I'm like, no, I get it.

371
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,000
They're all kind of Boston-y though, aren't they?

372
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,000
All of them.

373
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000
Yeah.

374
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000
Yeah.

375
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,000
Except for, oh Dorothy.

376
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,000
Oh, I hate that.

377
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,000
Dorothy.

378
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,000
Oh, that was good.

379
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,000
Yeah.

380
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,000
Thanks.

381
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,000
All right, back to the case.

382
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,500
You might recognize this phrase or name.

383
00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:26,500
Now, the current wording for the insanity defeat comes from the Mnotten rules based on the

384
00:20:26,500 --> 00:20:29,000
trial of Daniel Mnotten in 1843.

385
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,000
The defense of insanity has been subject to intense criticism, particularly from the

386
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,080
Butler committee, which noted that the rules were, quote, based on too limited a concept

387
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,000
of the nature of mental disorder.

388
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,000
Highlighting.

389
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,000
Too limited a concept.

390
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,000
Okay.

391
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,000
Yeah.

392
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,880
And the rules were, quote, the outmoded language of the Mnotten rules, which gives rise to problems

393
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,240
of interpretation and that the rules were, quote, based on the now obsolete belief in

394
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,800
the preeminent role of reason in controlling social behavior.

395
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,120
The rules are not, therefore, a satisfactory test of criminal responsibility.

396
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:06,360
So I mean, all I hear when I hear that is like basically like, how are you going to

397
00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,240
prove to me that you're not well?

398
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:09,240
Literally.

399
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:10,240
That's so gross.

400
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:11,240
Literally, yeah.

401
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,880
And if you can't, then sorry.

402
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,120
I'm innocent until proven guilty.

403
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,920
Like why do I have to prove to you that I have a mental disorder?

404
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,520
Especially if you're incapable of expressing that to someone.

405
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:24,520
Exactly.

406
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,720
Like clearly he was incapable of expressing it to the police that let him, that let him

407
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,480
go, that he was incapable of expressing that he needed to stay.

408
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,480
That he needed to stay.

409
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,840
He knew that he, and probably in his mind that he needed to stay.

410
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:36,680
But how do you explain that to someone?

411
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:42,120
Like, unless you say things like Andre Thomas did, like, I'm going to hurt someone.

412
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:43,120
Yeah.

413
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:44,120
Please.

414
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,320
But that's, I mean, presents differently in everybody.

415
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,320
Right.

416
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,000
And then some people might be like, well, if you feel like you're going to hurt someone,

417
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,280
what is it, was it Alexander that they're like, oh, if you feel like you're going to

418
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,960
hurt someone or yourself, you need to go to the emergency room.

419
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:55,960
Oh no, that was Andre Thomas.

420
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:56,960
Yeah.

421
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,960
You need to go to the emergency room.

422
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:58,960
Like, cool.

423
00:21:58,960 --> 00:21:59,960
Like, what?

424
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:00,960
Thanks for that.

425
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:01,960
No.

426
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:02,960
Appreciate it.

427
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:08,280
Now, the committee proposed reform of the law in 1975, followed by a draft bill from

428
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,800
the Law Commission in 1989.

429
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,520
So far, these have both been ignored by successive governments.

430
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,520
1989.

431
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:16,520
1320.

432
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,520
1989.

433
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:18,520
Still like, oh, I don't know.

434
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:19,520
Are they insane?

435
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,520
I don't know.

436
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:21,520
I don't know.

437
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:22,520
You got to prove it to me.

438
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,520
You got to prove it to me that you're insane.

439
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,400
Now, that's just a little bit of information about not only the insanity defense, but how

440
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,840
it works in the United Kingdom.

441
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,920
Just to put it into perspective on how unlikely it is that the insanity defense will quote,

442
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,640
unquote, work.

443
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,960
Regardless of the precise legal standard, the insanity defense is rarely raised and even

444
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,160
more rarely successful.

445
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,640
Like I said earlier, this is United States statistics because I couldn't find UK.

446
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,200
But it is used in only about 1% of cases in the United States and is successful less than

447
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:55,920
25% of the time.

448
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,640
In that 1% of that 1%.

449
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,400
Again, I couldn't find a direct statistic for the United Kingdom, but I'm assuming it's

450
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,600
about the same or even less than ours.

451
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:06,600
Yeah.

452
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,600
Now, back to the case.

453
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,800
That was just a little bit of sci-fi.

454
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:09,800
I think it's interesting.

455
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:10,800
Yeah.

456
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:11,800
Especially since we're talking about it.

457
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,280
You need to get to understand it a little bit more.

458
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,160
We kind of talk about sometimes in our cases, but to really go into the history of what

459
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:27,080
it means to have that insanity defense, I think we've only talked about on mental breakdowns.

460
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,080
Of course.

461
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,520
Now, it was noted during the trial that the proposal of the insanity defense was so rare

462
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,600
that they could not remember another instance in which it had been proposed before in the

463
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,600
United Kingdom.

464
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:38,600
Yeah.

465
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,560
Like, they could not recall like, oh yeah, I remember someone so when-

466
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,240
Oh, it was the case of 89.

467
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,240
Yeah.

468
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,240
Yeah, exactly.

469
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,480
So no one alive at that time.

470
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,640
Yeah, I remember.

471
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:52,640
Back in 1320.

472
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:53,640
Right.

473
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,800
It's like, what are you doing here?

474
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:56,800
You're clearly a vampire.

475
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,800
You're clearly a vampire.

476
00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,800
Lord.

477
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:05,120
Now, during sentencing, Mrs. Justice May described the case as, quote, disturbing on so many

478
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:10,120
levels, three dead, two injured at the hands of someone floridly psychotic at the time

479
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,400
and therefore not criminally responsible.

480
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,920
Yeah, she does sound like she's like, damn.

481
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,520
That sucks that he's not like being able to be trying.

482
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,520
Damn.

483
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:20,520
Like, honestly.

484
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,520
Gotta let another one go.

485
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,320
She also said that she would be making a hospital order with restrictions to ensure Alexander,

486
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,400
quote, won't be allowed into the community until agencies are absolutely content it is

487
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,800
okay for him to be released.

488
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,400
Yeah, no, I don't like this woman.

489
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,400
Yeah, sorry.

490
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,880
So she's like, well, that sucks that we can't put you in prison forever, but we're just

491
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,440
going to make sure that you're like kind of in prison forever until you're in prison

492
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,440
forever.

493
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:43,440
Yeah.

494
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,080
The judge informed the court that prior to returning their verdicts, the jury had passed

495
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,560
her a note raising concerns about the quote, state of psychiatric services in Devon and

496
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,840
the failings in health care in Alexander's case.

497
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,520
The jury knows what the fuck is up.

498
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,680
What about these dumbass cops?

499
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,120
I'll let them go.

500
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,680
The sliding of the note.

501
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,680
Here you go.

502
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:06,680
Excuse me.

503
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:07,680
Yeah.

504
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,680
Excuse me.

505
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,680
What about this?

506
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,040
So in a statement, the head of custody for G4S health services, John Allen, said the company,

507
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:19,400
quote, stood by their decision that, quote, Alexander was not suicidal and did not meet

508
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:26,000
the requirements of a full mental health act assessment in the one out of hours period.

509
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,080
Remember when they said it was due to the timeframe that they couldn't get him a consult?

510
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,960
Apparently it was Sunday and because it was Sunday, apparently mental health takes a break

511
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,240
and people do not need assessments until the last day.

512
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,600
Come back on Monday, 9am.

513
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:39,600
Like honestly.

514
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:40,600
Yeah.

515
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,600
You know, I'm sorry.

516
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,400
Mental health assessments only required during business hours.

517
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,400
Yeah.

518
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,400
Monday through Friday, 9am to 5am.

519
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,400
You can't be insane on the weekends.

520
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,400
Right.

521
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:49,400
Yeah.

522
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,800
It's just not possible.

523
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,760
Head of major crime at Devon and Cornwall police, Detective Superintendent Mike West

524
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,960
said, quote, we fully accept our responsibilities to look after those detained in our custody

525
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,960
units.

526
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:07,440
However, it is unreasonable to suggest that police officers or staff in these circumstances

527
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,560
should have overridden decisions made by those who are trained, qualified and skilled

528
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,560
in healthcare.

529
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,320
Oh, you mean the one person that spoke to Alexander on the phone for 12 minutes?

530
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,160
Let's not override that at all because you can't see what, like you're seeing what they

531
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,160
can't.

532
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,160
Right.

533
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,880
Like, this is the last resort?

534
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,680
Maybe they should have done something about it?

535
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,680
Like, they're like, okay, well, the mental health facility isn't going to take him, but

536
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,680
he needs to be somewhere.

537
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,400
Like, you can't just like, they can't just put him back on the street.

538
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,640
This is one of those cases where it's like, I'd rather you overreact than underreact

539
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:39,960
and someone dies.

540
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,120
Like, I would rather you be like, my bad.

541
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:43,200
Like, I didn't mean to overstep.

542
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,520
I thought that he was showing signs of this and that and the other.

543
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:46,520
Yeah.

544
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:47,520
Sorry, you know, release him.

545
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,200
Then like, oh yeah, we released him and he killed three people because I didn't want

546
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,200
to overstep.

547
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:52,200
Right.

548
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,000
No, it's because you're fucking lazy.

549
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,640
Honestly, that's the way I feel.

550
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,840
You didn't want to do the paperwork and you didn't want to have to deal with somebody

551
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,320
who was clearly having a mental episode.

552
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:02,320
Yeah.

553
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,360
The Devon and Cornwall police also responded to the accusations.

554
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:11,080
Quote, Lewis Rinewell was released on police bail so additional inquiries could be completed

555
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,840
in order to refer the case back to CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service.

556
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,240
A decision to release the detainee on bail was not based solely on the classification

557
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,000
of the offense, but alongside wider circumstances and information available.

558
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,480
Quote, during his time in custody on February 8th and 9th, Lewis Rinewell had a number of

559
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,040
interactions with medical professionals at the request of police, none of which resulted

560
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,800
in a recommendation of a full mental health assessment because it was Sunday.

561
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:39,800
That wasn't a quote.

562
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:40,800
That's just my excuse.

563
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:41,800
It was Sunday.

564
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:47,960
Quote, on February 9th, the duty custody inspector noticed concerns of Lewis Rinewell and an

565
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,880
NHS National Health Service liaison and mental health practitioner were called.

566
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,400
They conducted an assessment over the telephone and recommended he be seen by the emergency

567
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,520
duty team over the telephone.

568
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,640
Quote, the team requested a mental health professional to see Lewis Rinewell but was

569
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,880
not available until the following day, so recommended that an alternative option was

570
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,400
to wait for the forensic medical examiner to attend.

571
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,080
A forensic medical examiner is not the same thing as a mental health liaison.

572
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,080
Hold on to him.

573
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,560
Nobody can see him until the next day.

574
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,560
Hold on to him.

575
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,560
Yes, literally, it's not any thing.

576
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,240
Oh, you're having a schizophrenic episode, my...

577
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,400
Oh, yeah, alright.

578
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,400
Just see you tomorrow.

579
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,000
Yeah, come on back now.

580
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Come on back now.

581
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,960
Pop in tomorrow, 9 a.m.

582
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,640
Honestly, though, quote, the officers arranged for an assessment to be carried out by the

583
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,280
forensic medical examiner, a qualified doctor.

584
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,280
I doubt that.

585
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,760
Quote, he observed no evidence of acute mental health issues warranting a hospital admission.

586
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,800
Well, even though he's saying he needs help.

587
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,800
And his mom is calling, and the gentleman from the ranch is calling, saying, he is dangerous.

588
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,000
Like, I am worried for my safety and I'm worried for his safety if he releases it.

589
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,320
This is still a quote from the police department.

590
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,600
Quote, a custody pre-release plan was drawn up and on 10 February, Lewis Rinewell was

591
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,280
provided with paperwork to enable him access to the liaison and diversion services after

592
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,280
his release.

593
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,040
He doesn't understand what's happening.

594
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,920
So yeah, just give him some paperwork to fill out and he'll figure it out from there.

595
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,200
Hallucinations, visual and audio hallucinations, the guy doesn't know what's going on.

596
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,760
That's like, here's some paperwork for you to understand.

597
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:27,760
Go to the ER.

598
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:28,760
Go to the ER.

599
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,040
Like, makes no sense.

600
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,960
This is still a quote.

601
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,400
We could not have delayed his holding time any longer as to have done such a thing would

602
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:43,160
be unjustified and unnecessary based on the medical advice and custody time limits.

603
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,160
You can only hold someone for so long if they're insane unless they-

604
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,160
They can't even hold-

605
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Like, you're telling me that they're saying that they couldn't hold them overnight?

606
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,800
Yeah.

607
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:55,800
Bullshit.

608
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:56,800
Literally.

609
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:03,680
People that are, you know, on self-harm watch, they're usually required, at least in the

610
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,480
US, I think it's 72 hours.

611
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,160
And you're telling me that a healthcare professional, quote unquote, or a doctor, quote unquote-

612
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,160
They didn't want to do with him.

613
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,840
Be there until the morning and you can't hold him that long?

614
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,840
They didn't want to deal with him.

615
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,360
Remember I said in part one that he had caused damage to the cell that he was being held

616
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,360
in?

617
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Yeah.

618
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,360
They were probably like, fuck this guy, he's destroying our shit.

619
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,720
We don't want to keep him.

620
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,000
That is so ignorant and negligent.

621
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,000
It is.

622
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,520
Like, now by the end of the trial, the jury agreed the insanity defense could apply to

623
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:38,160
Alexander and he was found not guilty by a recent of insanity for all three of us.

624
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:39,160
What?

625
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,160
I just got goosebumps.

626
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,160
Right?

627
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,320
Well, I mean, but in this case though, not to diminish what the victims went through,

628
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,960
my heart absolutely goes out to them and their families.

629
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,880
I truly believe that Alexander is a victim in this as well.

630
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,760
I feel like if he had gotten help, he wouldn't have done that.

631
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,000
If they didn't release him that night, this wouldn't have happened.

632
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,000
I agree with that.

633
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,000
Yeah.

634
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,920
And he clearly was having, like we said, hallucinations and was clearly dealing with

635
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:03,920
that.

636
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,920
Yeah.

637
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,760
And the fact that these people literally just tried to brush him under a rug.

638
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,640
Can you imagine how many times that happens on a daily basis?

639
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:11,640
Oh, all the time.

640
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,280
And all these crimes that could be prevented if someone would just fucking open their damn

641
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,280
eyes and listen.

642
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,240
Now following the trial, Mr. Payne's family said that they were, quote, still profoundly

643
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:27,600
shocked and described the victims as, quote, gentle, kind and caring gentlemen.

644
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,640
The family of the Carter brothers said that they were, quote, quiet twins who loved the

645
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:37,280
outdoors, wildlife and bird watching and, quote, were born, lived and died at that house and

646
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,680
on Cowick Lane.

647
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:39,680
Wow.

648
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,440
Now, due to the decision of the jury and judge, Alexander is currently being held at

649
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,360
Broadmoor Security Hospital until doctors decided safe to release him.

650
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,480
They're finally giving him a mental health assessment.

651
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,480
Oh yeah.

652
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,640
You just only, like, maimed two people and chased and terrorized other people and killed

653
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:56,640
three people.

654
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:57,640
Yeah.

655
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:58,640
Oh, finally, we're going to pay attention.

656
00:31:58,640 --> 00:31:59,640
Mm-hmm.

657
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,080
Now that it's costing us money, honestly.

658
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,440
Not providing us money.

659
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,920
The most recent thing that I saw that was posted about the case was in February of 2020.

660
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,000
So about a year, two years.

661
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,000
Shit.

662
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,240
I keep thinking it's 2020 still.

663
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:12,240
Mm-hmm.

664
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,760
And it states that Alexander is still being held at this hospital.

665
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,760
Mm-hmm.

666
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,760
But that's the case of Alexander Lewis-Ranwell.

667
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:18,760
Wow.

668
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,360
And it was a lot of information, but I think it was really important to add all of those

669
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,960
direct quotes because it really shows not only Alex's basic understanding of what he's

670
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,720
going through in his attempt to get himself help, but the negligence of the fucking police

671
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,680
department that was, like, well, sorry, it's Sunday.

672
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,840
Well, he clearly has a grasp on it.

673
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,840
I'm sure those interviews happened after he got help in medication and, you know, had

674
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,480
a routine.

675
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,080
But he sounds like he knows exactly what he was experiencing.

676
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:53,480
And again, then we talked about a better understanding of your own mental disorders,

677
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:59,960
how, you know, your life can improve because you know what the signs and symptoms are.

678
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,080
So I mean, that's really fucking sad.

679
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,080
It is really sad.

680
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,640
I mean, it's for everyone involved.

681
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,000
Even the couple, Mr. Ellis and his wife.

682
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,000
Oh, Mr. Ellis.

683
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,000
We couldn't remember his name really.

684
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,240
I wish you guys knew.

685
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,520
Even Mr. Ellis and his wife, I mean, and the people from the hotel afterwards, they weren't

686
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,800
killed over the, you know, altercations, but they definitely felt the impact from his

687
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:21,800
mental health.

688
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,440
And God, it just breaks my heart because, again, I truly, truly believe if the police

689
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,160
had not released him that night, that would, none of that would have happened.

690
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,240
And he would have been able to get his mental health consult and assessment and been on medication.

691
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,760
And it reminds me of Richard Chase.

692
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,160
He was on medication for paranoid schizophrenia, which was diagnosed back then.

693
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,680
And it was working and he was doing great.

694
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,960
And then his mom decided to wean him off of it and then down the hill.

695
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,760
Not to say that you can, can't live with schizophrenia and not be on medication.

696
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:58,200
But in these specific cases, the medication was the key and the assessments were the key.

697
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,000
And unfortunately they just slipped through the cracks.

698
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:06,680
It's incredible to me, all the places that Alex ended up in and how many chances there

699
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,880
were for somebody to say something or do something, instead of being probably judgmental and being

700
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,200
like, okay, this guy's crazy or this guy's drunk or whatever.

701
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,200
Honestly.

702
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,040
And again, it goes back to that thing that we've said, like when you see a transient person

703
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,400
on the street that's talking to themselves or, you know, interacting kind of funnily

704
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,520
or whatever it is, our first reaction is like, ew, gross or like whatever.

705
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,400
And they're dealing with something and a lot of the resources, a lot of people are just

706
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,960
going to dismiss it or not want to be around it, you know, instead of really looking introspectively

707
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,280
and being like, okay, that person probably deals with something.

708
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,280
Yeah, of course.

709
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:47,240
And that's like, I try so hard to kind of use my compassion in those instances and my perspective,

710
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:51,360
when I do see something like that, you know, if I'm with a friend that makes an off putting

711
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,440
comment, I'm like, hey, you know, like, that's what I'm called for.

712
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,120
Like you don't know what that person's experiencing.

713
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,600
If anything other story.

714
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,000
If anything, it just breaks my heart now.

715
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,560
Yeah, because I'm like, man, you know, if the healthcare system, mental health care

716
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,360
system was a little bit better, that person might have somewhere to go.

717
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,360
Exactly.

718
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,360
Exactly.

719
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,000
I mean, that's like one of our main goals of doing this, you know, we've talked about

720
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,000
it before, but like it like normalized.

721
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,560
Oh, there's my COVID coming out.

722
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,560
So normalize.

723
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,120
Dammit.

724
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:25,720
Normalize talking about mental health and mental health, mental illness, not mental health,

725
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:27,360
like normalize talking about that.

726
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,320
That is like, I was watching Dr. Thill yesterday with mom and dad and they say like, I knew

727
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:39,280
this, but it's like 80 plus percent of Americans suffer from some sort of mental health, mental

728
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:45,240
health issue, like anxiety is the most prevalent mental health issue in America.

729
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:47,280
Everyone has that shit, honestly.

730
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,440
And that's so different than, I mean, my anxiety makes me feel like I'm having symptoms of

731
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,440
a heart attack.

732
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:53,440
Yeah.

733
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,920
Schizophrenia spectrum makes you feel like you are, you have a hot auditory hallucinations

734
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,040
or visual hallucinations.

735
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,640
It's not really far off from the side effects of anxiety.

736
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:02,640
Yeah, for sure.

737
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:10,000
I've definitely been trying to practice eliminating certain anxieties for my life.

738
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,600
So I've been like becoming a little bit more of a recluse, but I kind of like it.

739
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,600
Dude, same.

740
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:15,600
I kind of love it.

741
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,200
It's kind of nice to not have to deal with certain things.

742
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,200
Yeah.

743
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,200
You know what I mean?

744
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,200
I'm like really freeing experience.

745
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,200
It really is.

746
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:27,960
The more that people not only try to be kinder to each other and really try to look through

747
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:35,040
the perspective of another person, I feel like I'm more acutely aware of where other

748
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,840
people might be at.

749
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:43,040
And so even yesterday, I was texting a friend of mine and that person's going through something

750
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,880
or whatever, but I didn't ask them specifically what's going on or whatever.

751
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,440
I was just like, you good?

752
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:50,440
Yeah.

753
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,680
And they said, I'm here for you, you know, whatever, like you good?

754
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,240
But I didn't specifically ask them about that thing that might talk to me about it.

755
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:00,960
Talk to me about this specific thing because I know it's giving you anxiety.

756
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:01,960
Yeah, I didn't do that.

757
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:02,960
I didn't do that.

758
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:08,880
I was like, I didn't want to upset them, but I was like, yeah, are you good?

759
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:09,880
So that was enough.

760
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,960
And then they were like, I am like, thank you for asking.

761
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:12,960
Yeah.

762
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,840
And that's sometimes that's all it takes, honestly, just to reach out.

763
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,440
And even if you're like, I think the best thing that I like to practice for myself is

764
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:26,640
if I know that someone's going through something like perfect example, two of my childhood friends

765
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,600
lost one of their parents each this past week.

766
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,560
And I just reached out and I just said, thinking about you and your family love you, but I

767
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,160
wasn't expecting a response.

768
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,520
Sometimes all it takes is you to just reach out.

769
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,560
And if you don't get a response back, don't take it personally, that person's going through

770
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,560
something.

771
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,320
All you have to say is, you know what, I'm here for you.

772
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,320
Love you.

773
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,960
I don't think you need to talk or what's going on.

774
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,960
You know, thinking about you.

775
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,600
And sometimes that's all it fucking takes, honestly.

776
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,600
I agree with that.

777
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,200
I don't get offended if I don't get a response.

778
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:56,200
Yeah, same.

779
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,200
I mean, clearly you're like that person's going through something.

780
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,440
And it might not be a death.

781
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,360
It might be something different, but still, you never know.

782
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:04,660
That's the biggest thing.

783
00:38:04,660 --> 00:38:09,360
That being said, normalize, again, normalize.

784
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,040
Normalize doing something for yourself.

785
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,480
I challenge every single person that's listening.

786
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,960
Do something for yourself that makes your life easier.

787
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,680
Do not use me as an example.

788
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,800
But I quit my job recently because it was one of the biggest stressors in my life.

789
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,800
Seriously.

790
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,360
And I've honestly, with COVID, it kind of gave me a glimpse of what life is going to be like

791
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,760
when I'm no longer working there because I'm still within my two weeks.

792
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:31,760
And it was amazing.

793
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:37,240
I was like, oh my gosh, like I am so less stressed because I'm not working there anymore.

794
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:38,800
And I know that the end is near.

795
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,560
Like I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

796
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,240
And normalize doing something for yourself.

797
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:44,240
It may not be quitting your job.

798
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,920
It may be getting up in the morning and going for a walk or watching your favorite show

799
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,200
when it comes on and not having to record it and watch it later.

800
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,040
I like to plug my phone in and another room and then leave it there.

801
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Yes.

802
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,040
It's like one of my favorite things.

803
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:56,440
And I'll turn my watch off and everything.

804
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,440
And I'll be like, oh, I shaved my legs the other day for the first time.

805
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,680
And like, I don't have a lot of body hair, so it doesn't grow very fast.

806
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,480
But I shaved my legs for the first time in like two months.

807
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,080
And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

808
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,040
And it's just, seriously, it's the little thing sometimes.

809
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,280
It really is.

810
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,120
We kind of went off on a tangent, but we haven't seen you guys or talked to each other.

811
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,120
No, I think it does feel good.

812
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:17,120
Everything.

813
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,720
That being said, again, we are going to post this one, hopefully by the end of the week,

814
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,200
and we're going to get your mental breakdown recorded and posted hopefully.

815
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,320
But then we're going to be on another week, hiatus, because we're going to New York.

816
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,960
So we may not have another episode after the mental breakdown for probably a week and a

817
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,440
half, but we're going to give you an advance this time.

818
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,360
What if we record in New York?

819
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:37,360
That would be cool.

820
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:38,360
That would be really cool.

821
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,360
I'm bringing a big suitcase.

822
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,360
I could bring my stuff.

823
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,360
Yeah, I'm bringing a big suitcase.

824
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,360
Am I a check bag?

825
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,360
That might be kind of fun.

826
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:44,360
We should record in New York.

827
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,720
We can interview Stimax because he'll be with us.

828
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:48,920
Oh my God, let's record in New York.

829
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:49,920
That sounds like fun.

830
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:50,920
Okay, we're going to record in New York.

831
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:51,920
We just decided.

832
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:52,920
We just decided.

833
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:53,920
You heard it now folks.

834
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,960
Maybe we'll do a New York case since we're in New York.

835
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,160
What if we do something in the building that we're staying in?

836
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:00,160
It's my turn too.

837
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,760
Look up something that happened right next to where we're staying.

838
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,280
We can freak ourselves out.

839
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:04,280
Empire State Building.

840
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:05,880
It's going to be really cold.

841
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,360
If you guys are in New York, don't like to hang out with us because of COVID, but also

842
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,920
like email us and let us know.

843
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,440
If you have a case in New York, if you live there and you want us to talk about it, hell

844
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,440
yeah, let us know.

845
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:16,440
That would be fun.

846
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,440
That would be fun.

847
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,440
I'm so excited.

848
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,440
I have never been anywhere farther north than Colorado.

849
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,080
This would be the farthest north I've ever been.

850
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:24,600
Well, no, I've been to Michigan.

851
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:25,600
I've been to Ohio.

852
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,600
I've been to Maryland.

853
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:27,600
Yeah.

854
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,760
You've been to a bunch of places.

855
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,640
But New York is the first for both of us.

856
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:31,640
I know.

857
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:32,640
I'm so excited.

858
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:33,640
I want to go to Maine.

859
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:34,640
Dude, me, I've always wanted to go to Maine.

860
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,120
I just want to see those giant jetty rocks that they have, like light houses and stuff

861
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,120
like that.

862
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,840
Oh my God, I didn't even think about the water in New York.

863
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,080
You're going to have to bring your camera.

864
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,080
Yeah, I'm down.

865
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,840
Well, my phone is just as good as my camera now, you know.

866
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,840
Well, that's true.

867
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,520
And you don't have to pack an extra bag.

868
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:50,520
Yeah, that's true.

869
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,320
Anyways, people don't care about our plans like we said last time.

870
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,320
We don't kind of care about our plans.

871
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:55,320
Okay, well we're...

872
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:56,320
God dang it.

873
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:57,320
It's because we're famous.

874
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:58,320
We are totally famous.

875
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,040
If you didn't see the news segment, go look it up.

876
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,040
Do you hear my voice right now?

877
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,040
I know.

878
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:03,040
It really is me.

879
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,040
Yeah.

880
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,040
Hi.

881
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:06,040
It's all the cream from the coffee.

882
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,040
Dude, I had a large coffee.

883
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,640
I think that's why I'm like talking 100 miles an hour.

884
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,600
By the way, I noticed when I listened back that I talk...

885
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,760
I mean, I know I talk really fast, but I'm really trying to slow it down for you guys

886
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,280
and really try to be in the moment.

887
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,760
So if it sounds like I'm rushing through things, I'm really not.

888
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,680
That's just how I talk and I'm sorry.

889
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,760
If you can't keep up, please let me know when I will try my hardest to slow down in the next

890
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:27,760
episodes.

891
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:28,760
But I think I've been doing good the last couple of months.

892
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:29,760
I think it's okay.

893
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:30,760
Yeah.

894
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,760
I think halfway through the coffee kind of hits and then you're like, da-da-da-da.

895
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,760
I mean, me too.

896
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:34,760
I'm the same way.

897
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,320
I mean, when you go off script and you start talking, like not reading, it's like you

898
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,040
can talk so much faster because you're thinking you're not reading.

899
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:43,040
Right.

900
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,160
Your brain's just going a million miles an hour.

901
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:46,840
Anyways, we love you guys.

902
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,200
Thank you so much for being patient with us in the last week and a half.

903
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:51,200
We both...

904
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,200
I mean, you didn't get COVID, but I did.

905
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,200
So hopefully we won't get sick.

906
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,080
I still won't get sick because I didn't want to.

907
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,880
But hopefully we'll be fine, as I'm saying.

908
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,800
New York has the vaccine requirement and mask requirement everywhere.

909
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:02,800
So I'm so in love with that.

910
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,280
That'll be good.

911
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:08,280
In the meantime, you guys can follow us on Instagram at DiagnosingAKiller.

912
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:13,240
We also have Twitter at KillerDiagnosis, patreon.com slash DiagnosingAKiller.

913
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:18,000
If you want to email us, it's diagnosingakiller at gmail.com.

914
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,320
And we'll be making stickers pretty soon.

915
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:21,320
And hopefully sure.

916
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,320
That'll be fun.

917
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:24,320
Yeah.

918
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,040
And in New York.

919
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,040
I'm so excited.

920
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:28,040
Nah, nah, nah.

921
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,520
Seriously, if you guys are in New York, hit us up and we'll shout you out in the next

922
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:32,520
episode.

923
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:33,520
Yeah.

924
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:34,520
We'll be the people that I don't know.

925
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:35,520
No.

926
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:36,520
Not yet.

927
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,520
Could you imagine we get in New York and we're famous?

928
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:38,520
Oh my god, that'd be amazing.

929
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:39,520
We're like, what's on the cheese?

930
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,520
We're like, hey guys, come on, come on, come on.

931
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,520
I don't even know what we look like.

932
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,520
Well, maybe if they saw the Instagram or something.

933
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,520
I never look like that.

934
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,520
If you saw us right now, I'm wearing my Grey's Anatomy sweatshirt that Ka-Won got me from

935
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:52,520
Christmas.

936
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:53,520
It's so cute.

937
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,640
I'm wearing my RuPaul one that I got from Vegas.

938
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:56,640
I love it.

939
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,640
All right, we love you guys.

940
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:58,640
Love you.

941
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:05,640
Bye.