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Hello. Hello. I am Kenna. I am Koelle. Welcome back to...

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Diagnosing a Killer.

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It's been some time, y'all. I'm so sorry that we have had probably a week-long hiatus.

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I forgot my research. I had to go back and read it.

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We were both finishing school. We're fucking done with school. I'm so excited, but it was a damn

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stressful week. Thank you guys for bearing with us. I had some people asking me shout out Louise.

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She was like, hey, when's the next episode coming out? I've been waiting for it. Oh my gosh, it's so

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cool. Thank you guys for waiting patiently. We do have a new case for you today. Before we talk

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about the case, I have some news. She literally told me 30 minutes ago that she had something

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exciting to tell me, but she was going to wait to tell me on the episode. I actually have the

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adrenaline going. Speaking of news, I don't think we've mentioned this on the podcast yet. I had

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the pleasure of meeting Clark Finney from Great Day S.A. about a week and a half ago at a different

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meeting of the stars from Hell's Kitchen. I brought my mom and we actually met her. She ended up

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being there as well. We got to talking and she wanted to do a segment on Great Day S.A. about

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our podcast while she emailed me this morning and wants to shoot tomorrow. That's exciting.

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We gon' be famous. She says that almost every episode. We're gonna be gonna be famous.

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Just wait, Mark, my words. Anyways, that's really exciting. Yeah, I need to go shopping for her

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address. It's all but terrifying and exciting. Maybe I don't want to do a dress. Maybe I want

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to do a pantsuit. Hell yeah. I really want to do a pantsuit. Let's look business-y as fuck. I would

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love that. Let's do it. Let's dress up. I'm down. Okay, let's go shopping. Let's gender bend this

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stuff. So cool. Yeah. That's where I'm onesie. Can I just wear my pajamas? And dress onesie.

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Yes. Anyways, yeah, isn't that so fucking cool? That's really exciting. Oh my gosh. So, I mean,

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she has 10,000 followers on Instagram. I know that's not like an abundance of followers, but I

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want at least half of those. Let's say that's like 9,500 more than me. So yeah. Anyways, that's my news.

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We're gonna-

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Sorry. We're gonna get into the case to- It's the Yorba Monte.

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Coming to you live from Kenna, I have another Texas case for us today. Okay. This is actually

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suggested to me by my godmother. Shout out, Mary. And yeah, so we're gonna do this case today.

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We are talking about Clara Suarez Harris. Her maiden name is Suarez. Her married name is Harris.

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Clara Suarez Harris was born on February 3rd, 1958 in Bogota, Colombia, and was raised by her

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widowed mother. As she got older, she wanted to make a better life for herself. So she began

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studying dentistry in the late 80s, and she eventually moved to Houston, Texas. I could not

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find a lot about her childhood. Yeah. It was hardly, I mean, it was, she moved from countries and,

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you know, we talked about it with the- Well, yeah. It's kind of lost in translation.

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That's like Dee Dee Blanchard. She moved from Louisiana to wherever Dee Dee Blanchard was living.

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But whenever they moved, all those medical records that Gypsy had were completely destroyed in Hurricane

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Katrina and all that stuff. So especially if you move countries, that makes sense.

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Oh, we need to do that case. No. So good. It's so good. So I did say that Clara was crowned Miss

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Columbia Houston in a local contest very soon after completing her residency at the University of

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Texas's Houston Dental Branch. So she got her degree in dentistry. Super smart, super pretty.

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Yeah. Of course, she was very pretty. Or is. So soon after this, in 1991, Clara met a man named David

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Lynn Harris. They were both in their early 30s and both working at the Castle Dental Center in

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Houston. David was not only brilliant as well when it came to teeth, but he had graduated second in

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his class also from the Houston Dental Branch. They went to the same school. Was he also a beauty queen?

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Yeah. He was also Mr. Columbia Houston. Yeah. He had a really charming, folksy nature. People would

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comment about how nice he was and how charismatic. They said his favorite word was golly.

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Oh, golly. Golly G. Yeah. Yeah. Still using that in the 90s. Clara Bell. It was also noted that he

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had as many as 120 crooked teeth teenagers coming into his office every single day. Like he was

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very well known, very popular dentist. A lot of people around town used him. So David's father,

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Gerald, was later noted as saying, quote, I remember David calling me soon after he met Clara and

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telling me that he was completely smitten. I remember. I don't like that phrase. Oh, yeah.

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Oh, I don't like that phrase. I remember. Hey, you can have memories when someone's still alive.

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Sure. They might just be divorced. Sure. So the two. That's not what this podcast is about.

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It's not called divorcing a killer. Divorcing a killer. Oh, just like diagnosing a divorce.

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Oh, God, it's terrible. The two got married on February 14, 1992. Valentine's Day. This was less

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than a year after their first date and they got married at the Nassau Bay Hilton, which is about

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30 miles south of downtown Houston. It's also across the highway from the Looming Johnson Space

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Center and not far from where David would eventually open his first practice called Space Center

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Orthodontics. Cute. Was he like pediatric dentistry? I think so. Or maybe just all around. Yeah. Like

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all ages. But I mean, you know, it seems like he kind of attaches to the younger genus. Yeah. Well,

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he was an orthodontist. They usually deal with braces and things like that, which is normally

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when I need them right now as an adult. Yeah. So it was noted once that Clara had an interview

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with a reporter. I'm not exactly sure why. I think it was because of the practices that were being

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open. But she was quoted as saying about David, quote, I found the best and I found the one that

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God had reserved for me. Oh, really sweet. She actually opened her own dental practice in 93.

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So they both had their own practices. She had put photographs of the two of them in her office,

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replacing them with new ones every month, which I think is really sweet. Like the like current

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pictures, you know. And she was noted as talking to David at least two or three times a day on the

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phone when she wasn't with him and never hanging up before saying, I love you. Oh, they really

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love each other. Right. Now they had twin boys together, Brian and Bradley, born in 1998. And

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David had also had another daughter from her previous marriage. Her name was Lindsay. She was

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a talented violinist who lived with him in the summers after spending the school year with

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her mom who lived in Ohio. Yeah. So she would only visit and stay for the summer. It would be

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exciting to have siblings though. Right? I know the babies. So no matter how many patients Clara

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had to see, she always was noted as getting home in time to cook dinner for her family.

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They were noted as having a white brick house that was worth more than a half million dollars.

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And they lived in the cheerily named suburb of Friendswood. Friendswood. Isn't that cute?

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It sounds so made up. It sounds like a movie. Yeah. And it's like, no. It sounds like a stupid

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that sounds like a Tim Burton movie. But yeah, that's true. It sounds like a movie. She often

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told her patients that she had the perfect life. And she was quoted as saying by one of her co-workers,

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quote, for Clara, it was always David, David, David. I used to tell people that I wish I could be

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able to love my husband in the same way that Clara loved David. So where's the poop? Here it comes.

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Okay. On July 24, 2002, David Harris had made the decision to not spend that night with his wife.

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He was instead meeting a receptionist who worked at his office. A petite, stylish, 39-year-old

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mother of three named Gail Bridges. Less than two years earlier, Gail had divorced Stephen Bridges.

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He was a popular state farm agent who had- Jake from state farm.

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Yeah, Stephen from state farm. What are you wearing? Jake from state farm.

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She sounds hideous. Well, she's a guy, so. She's a guy.

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He had noted- he was noted as having clients all over the suburbs south of Houston,

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and they too seemingly had the perfect life and perfect marriage. They had lived in an exclusive

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gated subdivision called South Shore Harbor in League City. This summer was just across

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Interstate 45 from Friendswood, so right around the corner. But after her divorce in November

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of 2000, she moved to a smaller home in an ungated neighborhood, and she eventually started looking

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for work. This is Gail. When she was hired by Space Center Orthodontics in August of 2001,

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she was making only about $1800 a month. Hardly the kind of money she was used to,

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but she liked the job. She got along with her boss. Clearly.

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So Dr. Harris, David, started lingering at the front desk to talk to her,

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and in late February of 2002, he quietly asked her if she would like to have lunch at Perry's

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steakhouse. Perry's? I want to go back to Ruth's Chris. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I know. Honestly,

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the best part about working there was getting 50% off. That was like actually the only good part.

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I want the cheesecake again. The cheesecake is so fucking good. With the circular crust. Oh, it's so good.

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Now, by April or May, David and Gail had become intimate. When did she start working there?

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August of 2001, and this is now April or May of 2002. So it's like seven, eight months. Yeah,

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like not very long after. Oh, homegirl. They began meeting at the Nassau Bay Hilton.

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Sound familiar? What? Where they like where he got married? That's, oh my god. Yeah. Why?

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They're like so gross. Like don't shit where you eat. So bringing it back to July 24th, 2002.

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Okay. At the Nassau Bay Hilton, that is where David had asked Gail to meet him that night,

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the night that he decided not to be with Clara. He used cash to purchase a room under an assumed name.

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And together they walked into an elevator and headed upstairs. If that ever worked, nobody

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would ever be caught doing it, but it never works. I mean, and that really just shows his guilt.

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Like he's paying cash. He's using not his own name. You know, he's a well-known doctor around

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town. He knows he's doing something wrong. When they came back down from their room about an hour

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later and exited the elevator, Clara and Lindsay were standing in the lobby. I know this case.

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I know this case. Oh, bummer. Okay. I didn't, I didn't know that I knew this case until now.

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I'm going to bring it on Clara's side of the story and just kind of go what, from the beginning of

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that day and kind of go through what she did. Okay. So that day she was noted as putting on a

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silky blue blouse and cream colored slacks, which sounds fucking hella cute. She brushed her hair

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and tied it in place with a little bow. And then she picked up Lindsay, David's at that time 16-year-old

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daughter. And this isn't her bio daughter. No, this is her stepdaughter. Okay. So she's, she picked

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up Lindsay and took her for a drive and her silver S-Class 430 Mercedes Benz. Damn. That means

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something because she was obsessed with that car. Really? Yes. Yeah. She was, I mean, she loved that

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car. Like always wanted it. That was her dream car. And when she got it, she was never shut up about,

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oh yeah, of course. Yeah. I'd be pretty prideful too. So what Lindsay did not know was that Clara

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was planning on going to the hotel to confront David. I'm not sure how she got wind of what was

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happening or where he was going. Lindsay didn't know. Lindsay didn't know. So Clara picked her up

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saying we're going to go for a drive in my new car. We're going to go find your dad. Yeah. Lindsay

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didn't know. So again, it's unknown how she knew where he was, but somehow she got wind and was

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going to go make it a point to say something to him. Do you think she maybe she followed him or

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anything? Yeah, maybe. I mean, she had also hired a private investigator, so that probably had something

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to do with it. Oh, I see. Yes. Now they get to the hotel, Clara and Lindsay get out of the car and

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go into the lobby. Okay. I think at this point Lindsay kind of knows what's going on because

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she's like, what the hell? And I say that because of what happens next. So David and Gail came down

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on the elevator. It's unknown whether or not David was able to say anything to either one of them,

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but witnesses remember Clara lunging at Gail and screaming quote, you bitch, he's my husband. And

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then she slapped her, grabbed her shirt and ripped it off. Oh my God. Like very violent.

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Wow. She just like lost her shit. I mean, kind of who wouldn't, but at the same time to physically

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attack someone. Yeah. Especially the woman. Well, I mean, if she were, she knew he was married. Yeah,

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for sure. She was also noted as shouting quote, this is Dr. David Harris and he's fucking this

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woman right here. So she's like outing him in front of the whole lobby. She's like pointing like,

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this is him, motherfucker. It's like people at the bar and like, oh shit. At the same time,

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all of this was happening. This is really sad. Lindsay was noted as hitting her dad with her

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purse and screaming quote, I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Oh man. I mean, she's young. She's a

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teenager. So all she's hearing on the whole probably the car ride over there is your dad's a piece of

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shit. He's cheating on me this night. We're gonna go catch him. Yeah. That's awful to take her along.

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That's awful. Seriously. Oh, it gets worse. At this time, the hotel employees obviously tried to

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intervene, but Clara's rage kept building and she kept trying to get at Gail and kind of grab at her.

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It was also noted that at one point Clara and Gail were both like pulling on opposite sides of Gail's

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shirt, almost like tug of war. What? They were saying like she was trying to rip her shirt off,

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I guess pull her somehow. Yeah. But finally, according to another witness, David put his hand

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on Clara's head and pushed her to the floor, which honestly, that sounds kind of funny to see.

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Like you just grab her right in the forehead and shove her down. And at this time, a hotel

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employee quickly rushed Gail out of the hotel and to her car in the parking lot. Okay. And this

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hotel had multiple different parking lots, so they rushed her to one side of the hotel. And

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there's also a lot of witnesses. Eyewitness accounts are very unreliable and they can be,

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so I want to make sure that that's clear. This is all just hearsay from the witnesses.

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It's assumed. Yes. Or presumed rather. Now at this point, the confrontations seem to have come to an

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end. Hotel employees walked Clara and Lindsay back out to their Mercedes, which I told you,

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there's multiple different parking lots. They were in a different parking lot than Gail's car.

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Okay. And then asked them to leave. Okay. Clara then started the car, but she didn't seem to be

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leaving. What do you mean? Like she just sat there or she started the car and didn't go anywhere?

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Yeah. Suddenly, it's noted that she gunned the engine and headed toward the parking lot,

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where David and Gail were. David had gone out to see if Gail was okay, where her car was. Yeah.

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So she probably knew where he parked too. Yeah. Again, she probably scouted. Oh, yeah,

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absolutely. So Clara hit Gail's car during this whole thing. What? She was aiming for David,

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because he was standing by the car. So she hit Gail's car, hitting David in the process,

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who was unable to get out of the way. Oh no. This ended up launching him 25 feet across the parking

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lot. How fucking fast was she going? Oh, I mean, she gunned it. Oh my God. That's incredible.

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Content warning. Witnesses at this time said that they heard Lindsay screaming. Mind you, she's in

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the passenger seat when this whole thing is happening. They mentioned that they saw her open

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the door and stick her feet on the ground. They said that she was either trying to attempt to stop

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the car or she was attempting to get out of the car. Yeah. Either one of those things did not work.

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Yeah. But again, after this, Clara hit the gas another time, aimed the car at David,

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who was now laying on the ground. Oh my God. She completely ran over him. Witnesses noting that

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the car quote, bounced twice. And then she proceeded to turn around, hitting the gas again,

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and running him over once more. Oh my God. There's no way you're not trying to kill that man.

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There's no way you're not. After this, she turned around, hit the gas, and ran over him a third time

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before coming to a stop. All the while, Lindsay in the passenger seat. His daughter. His teenage

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daughter. That's, that is horrifying. According to one witness, at this point, Lindsay got out of

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the car after the car was stopped, rushed to the driver's side and punched Clara in the face,

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just like I would. Yeah. She then was noted as collapsing on the ground and beginning to sob,

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which is, oh, it just breaks my heart. That's so sad. When Clara eventually got out of the car,

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it seemed as if she didn't know what to do. She's kind of like, oh shit, like, you know.

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She finally walked over to David and was noted as staring at him, and then she too began to sob.

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Before the police arrived to, of course, arrest her, it's noted that she cradled him in her arms

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and begged him to breathe. And at this, she was noted as saying, quote, I'm sorry over and over

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and saying, quote, David, I'm so sorry. I love you. Which is like, how do you do that? You just

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did this heinous thing. Like, and then all of a sudden you just snap back and you're like, oh shit.

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I get that people get mad and like, there, of course, there's like, what are they like, crimes

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of passion. Yeah, like blind rage and stuff. Yeah, like you literally go to another place.

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And we'll talk about that. At this point, of course, the police arrived and she was arrested

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and taken into custody. That's so sad. I know. I feel bad for Gale too. She's just to see that.

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She might, like, she probably has a lot of guilt. Of course. And she probably has a lot of,

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I mean, she clearly has a lot of feelings for this man. So watching that happen,

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God, I can't even imagine. Unfortunately, David did not survive this and he did die at the scene.

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That's so sad. The murder of David Harris made headlines actually all over the world with one

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of the English tabloids calling Clara the, quote, Driller Killer. Or maybe they said,

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Drilla Kella. Drilla Kella. And the New York Post's headline reading, quote,

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Mad Wife at Wheel, which is so, like, shut up, fuck you. This is like a horrible, horrible thing.

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You think his family is not seeing that being like cool. Yeah. Way to make it like great,

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great tagline. Seriously, like, some clickbait shit. This really pissed me off. Morning talk show

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host for interviewing just about everybody that knew her. That doesn't piss me off. But the fact

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that late night comedians would use a story for punchlines on their episodes, that's so fucked up.

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So when Clara emerged for her court appearance after her release from jail on a $30,000 bond,

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nearly a dozen photographers were there to capture her every move, of course. It was very clear that

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she didn't want to get recognized because her hair was noted as going from reddish blonde to

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dark brown. Oh, gosh. She died it. She sat in the courtroom between two of her friends and she was

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noted as wearing a teal pantsuit, staring straight ahead, blinking back tears and still wearing her

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wedding ring. Yeah. The audacity of this bitch. Her lawyer, George Parnham, was noted as saying that

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it was rare to find her not crying. He said that she was still having difficulty realizing that

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David wouldn't be coming home. And he also said that a couple of her close friends said that they

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had just, they felt that they needed to stay the night at her house for the following week or so

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because they worried that if they left she would become suicidal. Clearly she loved him a lot.

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But how do you use your love for someone to justify killing them? Seriously. That's awful.

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It's literally like that if I can't have you, nobody can kind of. Yeah. Now another thing that

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was mentioned by her friends and by her lawyer was that the only thing that kept her going was the

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twin boys, of course, and the fact that their fourth birthday was also coming up. Oh my gosh.

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I know. The media attention was horrible, of course, with the talk shows, but also with radio

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shows grabbing attention from listeners and taking callers' opinions. So someone said that Clara did

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not deserve to be severely punished for what she did, while others saying that David signed his

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death warrant the moment he left with Gail. Ew. Like it's his fault. And some even blamed Gail

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entirely for his murder. So awful. Like she already doesn't have enough guilt at all. Seriously. Gail,

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like Clara, had gone into seclusion after David's death. There was a lot of speculation surrounding

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why she went, quote, into hiding and reporters later found out this was not the only affair that

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she was accused of having. Oh. For being involved in. No, during her divorce proceedings, which began

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in 1999, Stephen Bridges, her ex-husband, had claimed that Gail had been carrying on a romantic

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relationship with her best friend, Julie Knight. She was married as well to a Charles Knight and

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Charles had made the same allegations about Julie saying that her and Gail were in a

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romantic relationship together. So there's a lot of speculation before all of this happened that

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Gail was not very faithful and she was known to be involved in affairs. That's all I'm gonna say

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on that. I just wanted to point that out. It was never like confirmed. Yeah. Now Clara's child began

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the following February from the murder where Lindsay testified against her. Obviously. This is

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sad. Lindsay also claimed to have attempted suicide four times since her father's death. Oh my god,

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she's a baby. I know. So sad. Also introduced at the trial was an actual video recording of the

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murder. What? Remember that private investigator she hired? Well, she's dumb because he was across

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the street watching the whole thing and recorded her actually killing him. No. Yes. Yes. Wow.

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So that was like the nail, like the nail in the coffin. I witnessed the counts be damned, but

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private investigators. It's on video. And you hired him. Yeah, literally. You hired him.

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Here, come watch me kill this guy. Right? That just shows what her frame of mind was at though.

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Of course. That she literally didn't even think about that. Yeah, of course. Now, on February 14th,

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2003, what would have been their 11th anniversary? Clara was found guilty of first degree murder

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and sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $10,000. Now, 20 years, this is fucking awful.

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20 years is the maximum sentence allowed by the jury's quote, sudden passion finding.

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And would have been the minimum if the sudden passion was not the finding. Right. So because

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it was a crime of passion, the maximum you can give someone is 20 years. But if it wasn't that,

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it would have been the minimum, which is crazy. Right, which will first degree murder without any

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other stipulations, like insanity or passion or whatever. Yeah. Then first degree murder,

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of course, would be minimum would be 20. Awful. Especially in Texas. Yeah, of course.

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It was love land. She was sent to the Mountain View Unit in Gatesville, Texas and was eligible for

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parole in 2013. Clara was released from prison on parole on Friday, May 11th, 2018.

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No, she was not. She's free. She smiled as she walked out of the crane unit of the prison and

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got into a car to leave. What kind of car? Was it the Mercedes? Yeah, the same one. She's required

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to follow certain conditions, of course, which include no contact with her former in-laws or

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Lindsay or Gail. Wow. She must also not reside in any other county than Galveston while she's on

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parole and she is required to wear an ankle monitor, LOL. She remains on parole to this day

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with her parole ending February of 2023. That's incredible. I cannot believe that she's out.

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When was she sentenced? She was sentenced in 2003. Yeah. So she was, she only served 15 of her 20

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years, which 20 years is absolutely ridiculous, but she got 20 years. Even more ridiculous than

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that is fucking 15 years. So that's ridiculous. Now, I do have a couple things to note on her mental

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condition. She was never diagnosed with a mental disorder, but I do have some things I'd like to

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explain about the sudden passion defense and the insanity defense and stuff like that.

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But there's also some disorders that can co-occur with a crime of passion that I also want to

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mention. So those just include ADHD, borderline personality disorder, conductive disorder,

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which I didn't know what conduct disorder was, but it's kind of self-explanatory. It's usually

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occurs in teenagers, but it can go into adulthood. And it's just a disorder that displays a pattern

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of disruptive behaviors and violent behavior, trouble following rules, things like that.

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Now, I know we had mentioned a little bit in passing about a crime of passion. If you are

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listening and you don't know what a crime of passion is, you're in luck because I'm going to

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explain what it is. I'm gonna fucking tell you. Now, a crime of passion is committed under extreme

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emotional circumstances and frequently involves discovering disturbing behavior on the part of

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a lover or spouse, which allegedly creates a state of temporary insanity on the person that's

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committing the crime. So temporary insanity may be the more common defense than a crime of passion,

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and when used by a defendant in court, part of the goal is to get sentencing reduced or

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eliminated on a crime that the defendant has clearly committed, like serious assault or murder,

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but obviously did it because of some sort of fueled emotion or rage or, you know. It's not

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obviously 100% going to work and it's not actually acceptable everywhere. Some states you're not

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allowed to even attempt to use that defense. Yeah, because I'm sure there's like a lot that

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a lot of people that would argue like it doesn't matter if it's a crime, like most crimes or crimes

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of some kind of passion, right? Yeah. Even if the drive is psychological, it's still a passion of

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some kind. It is part of a desire or a want to do so. Yeah. So I did a little bit of digging into

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the insanity defense. There is actually four different types of insanity defense. I didn't

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know that and it's not necessarily that there's four types, but there's four tests to determine

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what type of insanity defense is more like, what would fit better with the specific instance.

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Yeah. Certain like criteria that have to be left for certain categories. Yes. And I mean,

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they're all a little bit different. So I'm going to explain those four here because I thought it

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was really interesting. And again, I want to do an entire episode on this, so I'm just going to

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give you spark notes and then I'll definitely come back with a lot more information later on.

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So the four most important tests for determining legal insanity. The first one is called the

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Imnoton rule. You might have heard of that. Imnoton? Imnoton, like immopostrophe noton. It's

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like a last name. So this was actually named for Englishman Daniel McNaughton, who was found not

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guilty by reason of insanity in 1843 from murdering the prime minister's secretary. What? It's used

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by a majority of states in this fundamental and establishing insanity defense. With the Imnoton

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rule, a defendant is deemed to be legally insane if he or she was unaware of what he or she was

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doing when the offense was committed, or even if the defendant knew what he or she was doing,

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the defendant was incapable of understanding that what they were doing was wrong. So pretty much like

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this person does not know right from wrong and they didn't at the time of their crime. That's

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the Imnoton rule. The next one is called the Irresistible Impulse Test. In some cases, a defendant

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may know that his or her actions were wrong, but committed them because of an Irresistible Impulse.

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The Irresistible Impulse Test is used by a number of states in combination with the Imnoton rule,

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with the Irresistible Impulse Test, the focus is on violation. Essentially, the test allows for a

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defendant to be not found guilty by reason of insanity if his or her mental illness meant that,

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although recognizing the wrongness of the defense, he or she was compelled to commit the offense

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anyways. So you know it's wrong, but you can't help yourself from doing it, which I think is a

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little silly. But I can. I think, again, I feel like that's... I see why some states don't have it.

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Yeah, some states are like new. I feel like that's most people, at least people that we've talked about,

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like even Andre Thomas, that's like a crime of passion, in my opinion, because it was honestly

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an isolated event. It happened this... I mean, of course, he had some type of psychosis, but

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you know, it's how do you not... Like, what's the difference? Yeah, that's why a lot of...

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You don't want a need, a desire, a passion to do so. And sometimes you feel compelled to do so,

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because you feel like it's... I mean, for lack of a better term, helpful.

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Yeah, or God's will. In Andre Thomas' case, yeah. Yeah, and that's why... I mean,

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this is one of... I told you this is one of the things I want to do is be able to determine

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these tests against the defendant. And unfortunately, it's really subjective. And it

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Yeah, it shouldn't be, but it is. But you can't help it. It can't help it to be subjective, you know?

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Like, it's like, do you think this person was insane? You can't look into someone's brain and say,

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yep, they're insane. Nope, they're not, you know? They do competency trials, right? So like,

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it's... You have a jury that determines whether or not they believe you fit under these categories.

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Yeah, but who's to say the defendant's not gonna put on a show and just

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pretend, you know, or not, you know? For sure. But that's where, you know, people like you,

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like a forensic psychologist comes in and testifies for the defense or for the prosecution,

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and says, you know, because of this, this, and this, you know, I believe it meets this criteria

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or it doesn't. And the jury has to listen to that and determine it. Yeah. But...

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But still, you're always going to get those points. No defense attorney would want me on that jury.

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Yeah, right. So the third one is called the Durham Rule. Today, this is actually only used in New

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Hampshire. The Durham Rule places a great deal of emphasis on scientific psychological evaluations

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and evidence. In most cases, juries follow the diagnosis made by trained professionals in determining

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whether the accused is guilty. That's what we were just talking about. This test has largely

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fallen out of favor, however, since it takes much of the decision of making abilities out of the jury

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and places it in the hands of the psychologist, who sometimes may even disagree among themselves

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about a defendant's insanity. Yeah. So pretty much this rule says, if the psychologist says that

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they're insane, you gotta say that they're insane too. And that's why it's only used in New Hampshire.

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I don't know about New Hampshire, but that's why it's not used everywhere else. I'm not saying

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anything bad about them. I'm just saying. Kristen Gilbert's from New Hampshire, so yeah.

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And the last one is called the Model Penal Code. It is an updated definition of the insanity

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defense and addresses some of the weaknesses of the above tests. See, the model... So they don't

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call it the insanity defense. They called it what? Yeah, it's called the Model Penal Code.

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Okay. I like that better than the insanity. Yeah. Are you insane or not? So the Model Penal Code

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tends to be much broader than the relatively rigid, amnotin rule, but also incorporates the

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centrality of the defendant's volition that is addressed by the irresistible impulse test.

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As such, it's usually used by states that do not use the amnotin rule. And the Model Penal Code

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also prohibits psychopaths and sociopaths from using the insanity defense. So people like

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Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy, they're ruled as a psychopath, sociopath, they are not allowed to

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even try to use the insanity, even though they did when they were in the court, but just as an example.

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Right. So yeah, the four tests that I just described are the most important ones for helping

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a court to determine a defendant's claim that he or she was legally insane when an offense was

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committed. While the insanity defense has long been controversial, of course, these tests help

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ensure that criminal justice remains fair, even in cases involving severe mental illness. Yes.

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So with all of that, I do believe that Clara Harris's crime was a crime of passion. However,

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I don't by any means think that she's insane or was insane at the time of her crime. And I

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definitely don't know if I agree with the fact that she only got 20 years and then served 15.

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I think that's yeah, I feel like there's a lot of other instances and not to compare like apples

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and oranges or apples and green apples and red apples. But I don't I don't think that there's

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any justification for taking another person's life. I don't care if you if you love your husband or

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whatever. Like, I don't know, is that like an emotional immaturity? Is that a mental immaturity

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that you think that that's I think it might be both. It's got to be emotional immaturity. Yeah.

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But the thing is, is that not only did she murder somebody, she also put the lives of

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two multiple people in danger because who else knows who's in the parking lot? You know,

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well, she's walking in their car. She killed an innocent person created that David was an innocent.

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But yeah, she created years of mental illness, PTSD, whatever, what have you with Lindsay and

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Gale? Yeah, those are all crimes in my opinion. You know, I went there and filed civil lawsuit.

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So I did see that Lindsay did file a civil lawsuit against Clara. Yeah, I was wondering about that.

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Yeah, so it says here, well, it's a federal lawsuit. She was quoted as saying, quote,

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I saw my stepmother Clara Harris kill my father, David L Harris by hitting him with her Mercedes

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Benz. She said this in an affidavit attached to her federal lawsuit. And then it was filed on her

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on her behalf by her mother, Deborah. Okay. Deborah also mentioned in the filing that her

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daughter tried to stop Clara Harris, but quote, despite her efforts, she was forced to witness

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the death of her father. That's so sad. I know. She also asked that a temporary restraining order

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be issued to freeze David Harris as a state so that Clara Harris, who had been charged with

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murder, couldn't benefit from it. Hell yeah. This is before she was convicted. Yeah. And she

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has also mentioned as saying that his estate should go to his three children, not her,

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because she was the sole heir of the estate. Ew. Yeah, I know. It should definitely go to the

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twins and ones. Yeah. And the lawsuit was filed on federal court, not civil because they didn't

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live, they were living in Ohio. So it wasn't, you know what I mean? Like they weren't in Texas,

373
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,640
so it had to be like a federal thing rather than yeah. And then the three year old twin boys ended

374
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,480
up living with relatives after this. I know it's so sad. That is sad. Yeah. So that's the case.

375
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:37,040
That's been a suggestion from Mary, but I didn't know. I had heard about the case, of course,

376
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,600
because you know, we were at an age at that point where, I mean, especially you, you were a little

377
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,840
bit older than me. You probably remember hearing about it. Yeah, I did. And it was so close to

378
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,520
home. And just content warning really quick. If you want to do your own research on this case,

379
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,120
that video is very easy to find just to let everyone know I did come across it when I was

380
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,560
researching. Yeah. It's not super graphic because it's a little far away, but it also is out there.

381
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,600
So if you're searching, you might come across that. I just like to let people know that because

382
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,520
when I stumble across something that I didn't intend to look at, I'm like, oh, you know, like,

383
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:11,520
yeah, especially in the Richard Chase case. Oh man, that was like horrible. And I didn't mean

384
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,400
to see that. And I was in class when I saw that. I was like, yikes. You know. Anyway,

385
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,760
speaking of class, we're both done with school. I know. So excited. We're gonna at least for a

386
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,600
few weeks. Yeah, we're going to give you guys this episode, hopefully by Monday night. And then

387
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,000
we're going to do a mental breakdown that's going to come out. I think pretty early this week.

388
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,960
Thank you guys all again for being so patient with us. We've been so busy, but we're definitely

389
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:42,880
going to. I missed you. I know. Seriously. I know this little tiny closet. And please be on the

390
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,040
lookout for us in great day I say if you don't live in the area and you don't somehow get that

391
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,360
channel, maybe you might be able to find it on the Internet. Yeah, I could do YouTube or something,

392
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,800
but we'll let you guys know as soon as we have like an air date for that. Because if we do the

393
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,520
interview tomorrow, where it's not going to air tomorrow, you know, it'll probably be a week

394
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,720
or so before it comes out. Yeah, I know I have to go. I have to go suit shopping. Okay, well,

395
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,360
we love you guys very much. You can follow us on Instagram at diagnosing a killer. We have Twitter

396
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:13,760
at killer diagnosis. We have a patreon patreon.com slash diagnosing a killer. We also have an email

397
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:28,000
diagnosing a killer at gmail.com. And yeah, thanks for listening to us. Thanks guys. We love you.