Hello. Hello. I am Kenna. I am Koelle. Welcome back to...
Diagnosing a Killer.
It's been some time, y'all. I'm so sorry that we have had probably a week-long hiatus.
I forgot my research. I had to go back and read it.
We were both finishing school. We're fucking done with school. I'm so excited, but it was a damn
stressful week. Thank you guys for bearing with us. I had some people asking me shout out Louise.
She was like, hey, when's the next episode coming out? I've been waiting for it. Oh my gosh, it's so
cool. Thank you guys for waiting patiently. We do have a new case for you today. Before we talk
about the case, I have some news. She literally told me 30 minutes ago that she had something
exciting to tell me, but she was going to wait to tell me on the episode. I actually have the
adrenaline going. Speaking of news, I don't think we've mentioned this on the podcast yet. I had
the pleasure of meeting Clark Finney from Great Day S.A. about a week and a half ago at a different
meeting of the stars from Hell's Kitchen. I brought my mom and we actually met her. She ended up
being there as well. We got to talking and she wanted to do a segment on Great Day S.A. about
our podcast while she emailed me this morning and wants to shoot tomorrow. That's exciting.
We gon' be famous. She says that almost every episode. We're gonna be gonna be famous.
Just wait, Mark, my words. Anyways, that's really exciting. Yeah, I need to go shopping for her
address. It's all but terrifying and exciting. Maybe I don't want to do a dress. Maybe I want
to do a pantsuit. Hell yeah. I really want to do a pantsuit. Let's look business-y as fuck. I would
love that. Let's do it. Let's dress up. I'm down. Okay, let's go shopping. Let's gender bend this
stuff. So cool. Yeah. That's where I'm onesie. Can I just wear my pajamas? And dress onesie.
Yes. Anyways, yeah, isn't that so fucking cool? That's really exciting. Oh my gosh. So, I mean,
she has 10,000 followers on Instagram. I know that's not like an abundance of followers, but I
want at least half of those. Let's say that's like 9,500 more than me. So yeah. Anyways, that's my news.
We're gonna-
Sorry. We're gonna get into the case to- It's the Yorba Monte.
Coming to you live from Kenna, I have another Texas case for us today. Okay. This is actually
suggested to me by my godmother. Shout out, Mary. And yeah, so we're gonna do this case today.
We are talking about Clara Suarez Harris. Her maiden name is Suarez. Her married name is Harris.
Clara Suarez Harris was born on February 3rd, 1958 in Bogota, Colombia, and was raised by her
widowed mother. As she got older, she wanted to make a better life for herself. So she began
studying dentistry in the late 80s, and she eventually moved to Houston, Texas. I could not
find a lot about her childhood. Yeah. It was hardly, I mean, it was, she moved from countries and,
you know, we talked about it with the- Well, yeah. It's kind of lost in translation.
That's like Dee Dee Blanchard. She moved from Louisiana to wherever Dee Dee Blanchard was living.
But whenever they moved, all those medical records that Gypsy had were completely destroyed in Hurricane
Katrina and all that stuff. So especially if you move countries, that makes sense.
Oh, we need to do that case. No. So good. It's so good. So I did say that Clara was crowned Miss
Columbia Houston in a local contest very soon after completing her residency at the University of
Texas's Houston Dental Branch. So she got her degree in dentistry. Super smart, super pretty.
Yeah. Of course, she was very pretty. Or is. So soon after this, in 1991, Clara met a man named David
Lynn Harris. They were both in their early 30s and both working at the Castle Dental Center in
Houston. David was not only brilliant as well when it came to teeth, but he had graduated second in
his class also from the Houston Dental Branch. They went to the same school. Was he also a beauty queen?
Yeah. He was also Mr. Columbia Houston. Yeah. He had a really charming, folksy nature. People would
comment about how nice he was and how charismatic. They said his favorite word was golly.
Oh, golly. Golly G. Yeah. Yeah. Still using that in the 90s. Clara Bell. It was also noted that he
had as many as 120 crooked teeth teenagers coming into his office every single day. Like he was
very well known, very popular dentist. A lot of people around town used him. So David's father,
Gerald, was later noted as saying, quote, I remember David calling me soon after he met Clara and
telling me that he was completely smitten. I remember. I don't like that phrase. Oh, yeah.
Oh, I don't like that phrase. I remember. Hey, you can have memories when someone's still alive.
Sure. They might just be divorced. Sure. So the two. That's not what this podcast is about.
It's not called divorcing a killer. Divorcing a killer. Oh, just like diagnosing a divorce.
Oh, God, it's terrible. The two got married on February 14, 1992. Valentine's Day. This was less
than a year after their first date and they got married at the Nassau Bay Hilton, which is about
30 miles south of downtown Houston. It's also across the highway from the Looming Johnson Space
Center and not far from where David would eventually open his first practice called Space Center
Orthodontics. Cute. Was he like pediatric dentistry? I think so. Or maybe just all around. Yeah. Like
all ages. But I mean, you know, it seems like he kind of attaches to the younger genus. Yeah. Well,
he was an orthodontist. They usually deal with braces and things like that, which is normally
when I need them right now as an adult. Yeah. So it was noted once that Clara had an interview
with a reporter. I'm not exactly sure why. I think it was because of the practices that were being
open. But she was quoted as saying about David, quote, I found the best and I found the one that
God had reserved for me. Oh, really sweet. She actually opened her own dental practice in 93.
So they both had their own practices. She had put photographs of the two of them in her office,
replacing them with new ones every month, which I think is really sweet. Like the like current
pictures, you know. And she was noted as talking to David at least two or three times a day on the
phone when she wasn't with him and never hanging up before saying, I love you. Oh, they really
love each other. Right. Now they had twin boys together, Brian and Bradley, born in 1998. And
David had also had another daughter from her previous marriage. Her name was Lindsay. She was
a talented violinist who lived with him in the summers after spending the school year with
her mom who lived in Ohio. Yeah. So she would only visit and stay for the summer. It would be
exciting to have siblings though. Right? I know the babies. So no matter how many patients Clara
had to see, she always was noted as getting home in time to cook dinner for her family.
They were noted as having a white brick house that was worth more than a half million dollars.
And they lived in the cheerily named suburb of Friendswood. Friendswood. Isn't that cute?
It sounds so made up. It sounds like a movie. Yeah. And it's like, no. It sounds like a stupid
that sounds like a Tim Burton movie. But yeah, that's true. It sounds like a movie. She often
told her patients that she had the perfect life. And she was quoted as saying by one of her co-workers,
quote, for Clara, it was always David, David, David. I used to tell people that I wish I could be
able to love my husband in the same way that Clara loved David. So where's the poop? Here it comes.
Okay. On July 24, 2002, David Harris had made the decision to not spend that night with his wife.
He was instead meeting a receptionist who worked at his office. A petite, stylish, 39-year-old
mother of three named Gail Bridges. Less than two years earlier, Gail had divorced Stephen Bridges.
He was a popular state farm agent who had- Jake from state farm.
Yeah, Stephen from state farm. What are you wearing? Jake from state farm.
She sounds hideous. Well, she's a guy, so. She's a guy.
He had noted- he was noted as having clients all over the suburbs south of Houston,
and they too seemingly had the perfect life and perfect marriage. They had lived in an exclusive
gated subdivision called South Shore Harbor in League City. This summer was just across
Interstate 45 from Friendswood, so right around the corner. But after her divorce in November
of 2000, she moved to a smaller home in an ungated neighborhood, and she eventually started looking
for work. This is Gail. When she was hired by Space Center Orthodontics in August of 2001,
she was making only about $1800 a month. Hardly the kind of money she was used to,
but she liked the job. She got along with her boss. Clearly.
So Dr. Harris, David, started lingering at the front desk to talk to her,
and in late February of 2002, he quietly asked her if she would like to have lunch at Perry's
steakhouse. Perry's? I want to go back to Ruth's Chris. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I know. Honestly,
the best part about working there was getting 50% off. That was like actually the only good part.
I want the cheesecake again. The cheesecake is so fucking good. With the circular crust. Oh, it's so good.
Now, by April or May, David and Gail had become intimate. When did she start working there?
August of 2001, and this is now April or May of 2002. So it's like seven, eight months. Yeah,
like not very long after. Oh, homegirl. They began meeting at the Nassau Bay Hilton.
Sound familiar? What? Where they like where he got married? That's, oh my god. Yeah. Why?
They're like so gross. Like don't shit where you eat. So bringing it back to July 24th, 2002.
Okay. At the Nassau Bay Hilton, that is where David had asked Gail to meet him that night,
the night that he decided not to be with Clara. He used cash to purchase a room under an assumed name.
And together they walked into an elevator and headed upstairs. If that ever worked, nobody
would ever be caught doing it, but it never works. I mean, and that really just shows his guilt.
Like he's paying cash. He's using not his own name. You know, he's a well-known doctor around
town. He knows he's doing something wrong. When they came back down from their room about an hour
later and exited the elevator, Clara and Lindsay were standing in the lobby. I know this case.
I know this case. Oh, bummer. Okay. I didn't, I didn't know that I knew this case until now.
I'm going to bring it on Clara's side of the story and just kind of go what, from the beginning of
that day and kind of go through what she did. Okay. So that day she was noted as putting on a
silky blue blouse and cream colored slacks, which sounds fucking hella cute. She brushed her hair
and tied it in place with a little bow. And then she picked up Lindsay, David's at that time 16-year-old
daughter. And this isn't her bio daughter. No, this is her stepdaughter. Okay. So she's, she picked
up Lindsay and took her for a drive and her silver S-Class 430 Mercedes Benz. Damn. That means
something because she was obsessed with that car. Really? Yes. Yeah. She was, I mean, she loved that
car. Like always wanted it. That was her dream car. And when she got it, she was never shut up about,
oh yeah, of course. Yeah. I'd be pretty prideful too. So what Lindsay did not know was that Clara
was planning on going to the hotel to confront David. I'm not sure how she got wind of what was
happening or where he was going. Lindsay didn't know. Lindsay didn't know. So Clara picked her up
saying we're going to go for a drive in my new car. We're going to go find your dad. Yeah. Lindsay
didn't know. So again, it's unknown how she knew where he was, but somehow she got wind and was
going to go make it a point to say something to him. Do you think she maybe she followed him or
anything? Yeah, maybe. I mean, she had also hired a private investigator, so that probably had something
to do with it. Oh, I see. Yes. Now they get to the hotel, Clara and Lindsay get out of the car and
go into the lobby. Okay. I think at this point Lindsay kind of knows what's going on because
she's like, what the hell? And I say that because of what happens next. So David and Gail came down
on the elevator. It's unknown whether or not David was able to say anything to either one of them,
but witnesses remember Clara lunging at Gail and screaming quote, you bitch, he's my husband. And
then she slapped her, grabbed her shirt and ripped it off. Oh my God. Like very violent.
Wow. She just like lost her shit. I mean, kind of who wouldn't, but at the same time to physically
attack someone. Yeah. Especially the woman. Well, I mean, if she were, she knew he was married. Yeah,
for sure. She was also noted as shouting quote, this is Dr. David Harris and he's fucking this
woman right here. So she's like outing him in front of the whole lobby. She's like pointing like,
this is him, motherfucker. It's like people at the bar and like, oh shit. At the same time,
all of this was happening. This is really sad. Lindsay was noted as hitting her dad with her
purse and screaming quote, I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Oh man. I mean, she's young. She's a
teenager. So all she's hearing on the whole probably the car ride over there is your dad's a piece of
shit. He's cheating on me this night. We're gonna go catch him. Yeah. That's awful to take her along.
That's awful. Seriously. Oh, it gets worse. At this time, the hotel employees obviously tried to
intervene, but Clara's rage kept building and she kept trying to get at Gail and kind of grab at her.
It was also noted that at one point Clara and Gail were both like pulling on opposite sides of Gail's
shirt, almost like tug of war. What? They were saying like she was trying to rip her shirt off,
I guess pull her somehow. Yeah. But finally, according to another witness, David put his hand
on Clara's head and pushed her to the floor, which honestly, that sounds kind of funny to see.
Like you just grab her right in the forehead and shove her down. And at this time, a hotel
employee quickly rushed Gail out of the hotel and to her car in the parking lot. Okay. And this
hotel had multiple different parking lots, so they rushed her to one side of the hotel. And
there's also a lot of witnesses. Eyewitness accounts are very unreliable and they can be,
so I want to make sure that that's clear. This is all just hearsay from the witnesses.
It's assumed. Yes. Or presumed rather. Now at this point, the confrontations seem to have come to an
end. Hotel employees walked Clara and Lindsay back out to their Mercedes, which I told you,
there's multiple different parking lots. They were in a different parking lot than Gail's car.
Okay. And then asked them to leave. Okay. Clara then started the car, but she didn't seem to be
leaving. What do you mean? Like she just sat there or she started the car and didn't go anywhere?
Yeah. Suddenly, it's noted that she gunned the engine and headed toward the parking lot,
where David and Gail were. David had gone out to see if Gail was okay, where her car was. Yeah.
So she probably knew where he parked too. Yeah. Again, she probably scouted. Oh, yeah,
absolutely. So Clara hit Gail's car during this whole thing. What? She was aiming for David,
because he was standing by the car. So she hit Gail's car, hitting David in the process,
who was unable to get out of the way. Oh no. This ended up launching him 25 feet across the parking
lot. How fucking fast was she going? Oh, I mean, she gunned it. Oh my God. That's incredible.
Content warning. Witnesses at this time said that they heard Lindsay screaming. Mind you, she's in
the passenger seat when this whole thing is happening. They mentioned that they saw her open
the door and stick her feet on the ground. They said that she was either trying to attempt to stop
the car or she was attempting to get out of the car. Yeah. Either one of those things did not work.
Yeah. But again, after this, Clara hit the gas another time, aimed the car at David,
who was now laying on the ground. Oh my God. She completely ran over him. Witnesses noting that
the car quote, bounced twice. And then she proceeded to turn around, hitting the gas again,
and running him over once more. Oh my God. There's no way you're not trying to kill that man.
There's no way you're not. After this, she turned around, hit the gas, and ran over him a third time
before coming to a stop. All the while, Lindsay in the passenger seat. His daughter. His teenage
daughter. That's, that is horrifying. According to one witness, at this point, Lindsay got out of
the car after the car was stopped, rushed to the driver's side and punched Clara in the face,
just like I would. Yeah. She then was noted as collapsing on the ground and beginning to sob,
which is, oh, it just breaks my heart. That's so sad. When Clara eventually got out of the car,
it seemed as if she didn't know what to do. She's kind of like, oh shit, like, you know.
She finally walked over to David and was noted as staring at him, and then she too began to sob.
Before the police arrived to, of course, arrest her, it's noted that she cradled him in her arms
and begged him to breathe. And at this, she was noted as saying, quote, I'm sorry over and over
and saying, quote, David, I'm so sorry. I love you. Which is like, how do you do that? You just
did this heinous thing. Like, and then all of a sudden you just snap back and you're like, oh shit.
I get that people get mad and like, there, of course, there's like, what are they like, crimes
of passion. Yeah, like blind rage and stuff. Yeah, like you literally go to another place.
And we'll talk about that. At this point, of course, the police arrived and she was arrested
and taken into custody. That's so sad. I know. I feel bad for Gale too. She's just to see that.
She might, like, she probably has a lot of guilt. Of course. And she probably has a lot of,
I mean, she clearly has a lot of feelings for this man. So watching that happen,
God, I can't even imagine. Unfortunately, David did not survive this and he did die at the scene.
That's so sad. The murder of David Harris made headlines actually all over the world with one
of the English tabloids calling Clara the, quote, Driller Killer. Or maybe they said,
Drilla Kella. Drilla Kella. And the New York Post's headline reading, quote,
Mad Wife at Wheel, which is so, like, shut up, fuck you. This is like a horrible, horrible thing.
You think his family is not seeing that being like cool. Yeah. Way to make it like great,
great tagline. Seriously, like, some clickbait shit. This really pissed me off. Morning talk show
host for interviewing just about everybody that knew her. That doesn't piss me off. But the fact
that late night comedians would use a story for punchlines on their episodes, that's so fucked up.
So when Clara emerged for her court appearance after her release from jail on a $30,000 bond,
nearly a dozen photographers were there to capture her every move, of course. It was very clear that
she didn't want to get recognized because her hair was noted as going from reddish blonde to
dark brown. Oh, gosh. She died it. She sat in the courtroom between two of her friends and she was
noted as wearing a teal pantsuit, staring straight ahead, blinking back tears and still wearing her
wedding ring. Yeah. The audacity of this bitch. Her lawyer, George Parnham, was noted as saying that
it was rare to find her not crying. He said that she was still having difficulty realizing that
David wouldn't be coming home. And he also said that a couple of her close friends said that they
had just, they felt that they needed to stay the night at her house for the following week or so
because they worried that if they left she would become suicidal. Clearly she loved him a lot.
But how do you use your love for someone to justify killing them? Seriously. That's awful.
It's literally like that if I can't have you, nobody can kind of. Yeah. Now another thing that
was mentioned by her friends and by her lawyer was that the only thing that kept her going was the
twin boys, of course, and the fact that their fourth birthday was also coming up. Oh my gosh.
I know. The media attention was horrible, of course, with the talk shows, but also with radio
shows grabbing attention from listeners and taking callers' opinions. So someone said that Clara did
not deserve to be severely punished for what she did, while others saying that David signed his
death warrant the moment he left with Gail. Ew. Like it's his fault. And some even blamed Gail
entirely for his murder. So awful. Like she already doesn't have enough guilt at all. Seriously. Gail,
like Clara, had gone into seclusion after David's death. There was a lot of speculation surrounding
why she went, quote, into hiding and reporters later found out this was not the only affair that
she was accused of having. Oh. For being involved in. No, during her divorce proceedings, which began
in 1999, Stephen Bridges, her ex-husband, had claimed that Gail had been carrying on a romantic
relationship with her best friend, Julie Knight. She was married as well to a Charles Knight and
Charles had made the same allegations about Julie saying that her and Gail were in a
romantic relationship together. So there's a lot of speculation before all of this happened that
Gail was not very faithful and she was known to be involved in affairs. That's all I'm gonna say
on that. I just wanted to point that out. It was never like confirmed. Yeah. Now Clara's child began
the following February from the murder where Lindsay testified against her. Obviously. This is
sad. Lindsay also claimed to have attempted suicide four times since her father's death. Oh my god,
she's a baby. I know. So sad. Also introduced at the trial was an actual video recording of the
murder. What? Remember that private investigator she hired? Well, she's dumb because he was across
the street watching the whole thing and recorded her actually killing him. No. Yes. Yes. Wow.
So that was like the nail, like the nail in the coffin. I witnessed the counts be damned, but
private investigators. It's on video. And you hired him. Yeah, literally. You hired him.
Here, come watch me kill this guy. Right? That just shows what her frame of mind was at though.
Of course. That she literally didn't even think about that. Yeah, of course. Now, on February 14th,
2003, what would have been their 11th anniversary? Clara was found guilty of first degree murder
and sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $10,000. Now, 20 years, this is fucking awful.
20 years is the maximum sentence allowed by the jury's quote, sudden passion finding.
And would have been the minimum if the sudden passion was not the finding. Right. So because
it was a crime of passion, the maximum you can give someone is 20 years. But if it wasn't that,
it would have been the minimum, which is crazy. Right, which will first degree murder without any
other stipulations, like insanity or passion or whatever. Yeah. Then first degree murder,
of course, would be minimum would be 20. Awful. Especially in Texas. Yeah, of course.
It was love land. She was sent to the Mountain View Unit in Gatesville, Texas and was eligible for
parole in 2013. Clara was released from prison on parole on Friday, May 11th, 2018.
No, she was not. She's free. She smiled as she walked out of the crane unit of the prison and
got into a car to leave. What kind of car? Was it the Mercedes? Yeah, the same one. She's required
to follow certain conditions, of course, which include no contact with her former in-laws or
Lindsay or Gail. Wow. She must also not reside in any other county than Galveston while she's on
parole and she is required to wear an ankle monitor, LOL. She remains on parole to this day
with her parole ending February of 2023. That's incredible. I cannot believe that she's out.
When was she sentenced? She was sentenced in 2003. Yeah. So she was, she only served 15 of her 20
years, which 20 years is absolutely ridiculous, but she got 20 years. Even more ridiculous than
that is fucking 15 years. So that's ridiculous. Now, I do have a couple things to note on her mental
condition. She was never diagnosed with a mental disorder, but I do have some things I'd like to
explain about the sudden passion defense and the insanity defense and stuff like that.
But there's also some disorders that can co-occur with a crime of passion that I also want to
mention. So those just include ADHD, borderline personality disorder, conductive disorder,
which I didn't know what conduct disorder was, but it's kind of self-explanatory. It's usually
occurs in teenagers, but it can go into adulthood. And it's just a disorder that displays a pattern
of disruptive behaviors and violent behavior, trouble following rules, things like that.
Now, I know we had mentioned a little bit in passing about a crime of passion. If you are
listening and you don't know what a crime of passion is, you're in luck because I'm going to
explain what it is. I'm gonna fucking tell you. Now, a crime of passion is committed under extreme
emotional circumstances and frequently involves discovering disturbing behavior on the part of
a lover or spouse, which allegedly creates a state of temporary insanity on the person that's
committing the crime. So temporary insanity may be the more common defense than a crime of passion,
and when used by a defendant in court, part of the goal is to get sentencing reduced or
eliminated on a crime that the defendant has clearly committed, like serious assault or murder,
but obviously did it because of some sort of fueled emotion or rage or, you know. It's not
obviously 100% going to work and it's not actually acceptable everywhere. Some states you're not
allowed to even attempt to use that defense. Yeah, because I'm sure there's like a lot that
a lot of people that would argue like it doesn't matter if it's a crime, like most crimes or crimes
of some kind of passion, right? Yeah. Even if the drive is psychological, it's still a passion of
some kind. It is part of a desire or a want to do so. Yeah. So I did a little bit of digging into
the insanity defense. There is actually four different types of insanity defense. I didn't
know that and it's not necessarily that there's four types, but there's four tests to determine
what type of insanity defense is more like, what would fit better with the specific instance.
Yeah. Certain like criteria that have to be left for certain categories. Yes. And I mean,
they're all a little bit different. So I'm going to explain those four here because I thought it
was really interesting. And again, I want to do an entire episode on this, so I'm just going to
give you spark notes and then I'll definitely come back with a lot more information later on.
So the four most important tests for determining legal insanity. The first one is called the
Imnoton rule. You might have heard of that. Imnoton? Imnoton, like immopostrophe noton. It's
like a last name. So this was actually named for Englishman Daniel McNaughton, who was found not
guilty by reason of insanity in 1843 from murdering the prime minister's secretary. What? It's used
by a majority of states in this fundamental and establishing insanity defense. With the Imnoton
rule, a defendant is deemed to be legally insane if he or she was unaware of what he or she was
doing when the offense was committed, or even if the defendant knew what he or she was doing,
the defendant was incapable of understanding that what they were doing was wrong. So pretty much like
this person does not know right from wrong and they didn't at the time of their crime. That's
the Imnoton rule. The next one is called the Irresistible Impulse Test. In some cases, a defendant
may know that his or her actions were wrong, but committed them because of an Irresistible Impulse.
The Irresistible Impulse Test is used by a number of states in combination with the Imnoton rule,
with the Irresistible Impulse Test, the focus is on violation. Essentially, the test allows for a
defendant to be not found guilty by reason of insanity if his or her mental illness meant that,
although recognizing the wrongness of the defense, he or she was compelled to commit the offense
anyways. So you know it's wrong, but you can't help yourself from doing it, which I think is a
little silly. But I can. I think, again, I feel like that's... I see why some states don't have it.
Yeah, some states are like new. I feel like that's most people, at least people that we've talked about,
like even Andre Thomas, that's like a crime of passion, in my opinion, because it was honestly
an isolated event. It happened this... I mean, of course, he had some type of psychosis, but
you know, it's how do you not... Like, what's the difference? Yeah, that's why a lot of...
You don't want a need, a desire, a passion to do so. And sometimes you feel compelled to do so,
because you feel like it's... I mean, for lack of a better term, helpful.
Yeah, or God's will. In Andre Thomas' case, yeah. Yeah, and that's why... I mean,
this is one of... I told you this is one of the things I want to do is be able to determine
these tests against the defendant. And unfortunately, it's really subjective. And it
Yeah, it shouldn't be, but it is. But you can't help it. It can't help it to be subjective, you know?
Like, it's like, do you think this person was insane? You can't look into someone's brain and say,
yep, they're insane. Nope, they're not, you know? They do competency trials, right? So like,
it's... You have a jury that determines whether or not they believe you fit under these categories.
Yeah, but who's to say the defendant's not gonna put on a show and just
pretend, you know, or not, you know? For sure. But that's where, you know, people like you,
like a forensic psychologist comes in and testifies for the defense or for the prosecution,
and says, you know, because of this, this, and this, you know, I believe it meets this criteria
or it doesn't. And the jury has to listen to that and determine it. Yeah. But...
But still, you're always going to get those points. No defense attorney would want me on that jury.
Yeah, right. So the third one is called the Durham Rule. Today, this is actually only used in New
Hampshire. The Durham Rule places a great deal of emphasis on scientific psychological evaluations
and evidence. In most cases, juries follow the diagnosis made by trained professionals in determining
whether the accused is guilty. That's what we were just talking about. This test has largely
fallen out of favor, however, since it takes much of the decision of making abilities out of the jury
and places it in the hands of the psychologist, who sometimes may even disagree among themselves
about a defendant's insanity. Yeah. So pretty much this rule says, if the psychologist says that
they're insane, you gotta say that they're insane too. And that's why it's only used in New Hampshire.
I don't know about New Hampshire, but that's why it's not used everywhere else. I'm not saying
anything bad about them. I'm just saying. Kristen Gilbert's from New Hampshire, so yeah.
And the last one is called the Model Penal Code. It is an updated definition of the insanity
defense and addresses some of the weaknesses of the above tests. See, the model... So they don't
call it the insanity defense. They called it what? Yeah, it's called the Model Penal Code.
Okay. I like that better than the insanity. Yeah. Are you insane or not? So the Model Penal Code
tends to be much broader than the relatively rigid, amnotin rule, but also incorporates the
centrality of the defendant's volition that is addressed by the irresistible impulse test.
As such, it's usually used by states that do not use the amnotin rule. And the Model Penal Code
also prohibits psychopaths and sociopaths from using the insanity defense. So people like
Charlie Manson or Ted Bundy, they're ruled as a psychopath, sociopath, they are not allowed to
even try to use the insanity, even though they did when they were in the court, but just as an example.
Right. So yeah, the four tests that I just described are the most important ones for helping
a court to determine a defendant's claim that he or she was legally insane when an offense was
committed. While the insanity defense has long been controversial, of course, these tests help
ensure that criminal justice remains fair, even in cases involving severe mental illness. Yes.
So with all of that, I do believe that Clara Harris's crime was a crime of passion. However,
I don't by any means think that she's insane or was insane at the time of her crime. And I
definitely don't know if I agree with the fact that she only got 20 years and then served 15.
I think that's yeah, I feel like there's a lot of other instances and not to compare like apples
and oranges or apples and green apples and red apples. But I don't I don't think that there's
any justification for taking another person's life. I don't care if you if you love your husband or
whatever. Like, I don't know, is that like an emotional immaturity? Is that a mental immaturity
that you think that that's I think it might be both. It's got to be emotional immaturity. Yeah.
But the thing is, is that not only did she murder somebody, she also put the lives of
two multiple people in danger because who else knows who's in the parking lot? You know,
well, she's walking in their car. She killed an innocent person created that David was an innocent.
But yeah, she created years of mental illness, PTSD, whatever, what have you with Lindsay and
Gale? Yeah, those are all crimes in my opinion. You know, I went there and filed civil lawsuit.
So I did see that Lindsay did file a civil lawsuit against Clara. Yeah, I was wondering about that.
Yeah, so it says here, well, it's a federal lawsuit. She was quoted as saying, quote,
I saw my stepmother Clara Harris kill my father, David L Harris by hitting him with her Mercedes
Benz. She said this in an affidavit attached to her federal lawsuit. And then it was filed on her
on her behalf by her mother, Deborah. Okay. Deborah also mentioned in the filing that her
daughter tried to stop Clara Harris, but quote, despite her efforts, she was forced to witness
the death of her father. That's so sad. I know. She also asked that a temporary restraining order
be issued to freeze David Harris as a state so that Clara Harris, who had been charged with
murder, couldn't benefit from it. Hell yeah. This is before she was convicted. Yeah. And she
has also mentioned as saying that his estate should go to his three children, not her,
because she was the sole heir of the estate. Ew. Yeah, I know. It should definitely go to the
twins and ones. Yeah. And the lawsuit was filed on federal court, not civil because they didn't
live, they were living in Ohio. So it wasn't, you know what I mean? Like they weren't in Texas,
so it had to be like a federal thing rather than yeah. And then the three year old twin boys ended
up living with relatives after this. I know it's so sad. That is sad. Yeah. So that's the case.
That's been a suggestion from Mary, but I didn't know. I had heard about the case, of course,
because you know, we were at an age at that point where, I mean, especially you, you were a little
bit older than me. You probably remember hearing about it. Yeah, I did. And it was so close to
home. And just content warning really quick. If you want to do your own research on this case,
that video is very easy to find just to let everyone know I did come across it when I was
researching. Yeah. It's not super graphic because it's a little far away, but it also is out there.
So if you're searching, you might come across that. I just like to let people know that because
when I stumble across something that I didn't intend to look at, I'm like, oh, you know, like,
yeah, especially in the Richard Chase case. Oh man, that was like horrible. And I didn't mean
to see that. And I was in class when I saw that. I was like, yikes. You know. Anyway,
speaking of class, we're both done with school. I know. So excited. We're gonna at least for a
few weeks. Yeah, we're going to give you guys this episode, hopefully by Monday night. And then
we're going to do a mental breakdown that's going to come out. I think pretty early this week.
Thank you guys all again for being so patient with us. We've been so busy, but we're definitely
going to. I missed you. I know. Seriously. I know this little tiny closet. And please be on the
lookout for us in great day I say if you don't live in the area and you don't somehow get that
channel, maybe you might be able to find it on the Internet. Yeah, I could do YouTube or something,
but we'll let you guys know as soon as we have like an air date for that. Because if we do the
interview tomorrow, where it's not going to air tomorrow, you know, it'll probably be a week
or so before it comes out. Yeah, I know I have to go. I have to go suit shopping. Okay, well,
we love you guys very much. You can follow us on Instagram at diagnosing a killer. We have Twitter
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