Oh, that was really loud, sorry.
Okay.
Are we good?
Yeah, I think so.
I'm just capturing all these moments and I, like, it's TV gold.
Yes, it really is.
It's so cool.
Clark Finney, everyone.
Welcome, Clark.
Oh my god, are we recording?
Yes.
Okay, that's my job.
You can't go to prison in turn.
We're recording her while she's recording us.
I know.
It's awesome.
We get all of the back, the back feedback, you know.
The background?
I don't know what, I don't know what I'm trying to say.
The background.
Behind the scenes.
I did not realize you guys had just started.
You're just talking.
You're talking like normal people.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
It's the best, because when we edit it in, when we edit it in, it's, it seems, yeah,
it not just seems authentic, it is.
This is what we do.
You just threw a thousand dollar bracelet on the floor.
Yeah.
Like, were those with charms?
I have to ask her.
That's Jane Daivry.
Yeah, you want to see it?
Yes.
So sorry, wait, I want to see it.
She's been collecting for so long.
No, that's the most Texas thing wins.
Oh, it's upside down.
Let me see if I can, is this like milestones in your life?
Oh yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Okay, wait.
Since we were kids, mom always gave us one when we were babies.
Where does it start and where does it end?
I mean, all over.
They're all over.
I see big sister.
Who's big sis?
I am.
Emily got that for me.
Yeah.
My sister-in-law.
My gosh.
Little sister.
Definitely little sister.
There's an age gap with us for, oh gosh, how do I say that?
There's an eight year age difference between the two of us.
Oh my gosh.
There's a wine bottle in here?
Yeah.
Let me some vino.
Did you get to the water burger cup yet?
I got to the water burger cup.
That's the most Texas thing right there.
Is there a good story behind this or is it just water burger because Texas?
Because Texas is the best.
I used to have a pair of boots as well.
Oh my gosh.
They fell off.
I love cat mom.
Oh yeah.
Cat mom.
Cat mom is awesome.
I mean, oh, there's a little heart at the end.
That's from my mans.
The mans is the mans.
See, and it's on the bracelet now, so it's official official.
Oh yeah.
So when you're done with it, just throw it on the ground.
Yeah.
I know.
Just toss it on the ground.
Oh my gosh, that's so cute.
Not my finest moment?
No, it was fine.
I think it was fine.
Maybe not the finest, but it was fine.
It was fine.
Yes.
All right.
Hello.
Welcome back to Diagnosing a Killer.
We're here with the kind of mental breakdown.
Kind of mental breakdown?
Kind of everywhere.
Kind of Clark edition.
Yeah.
Hi.
We're here with Clark Finney from the news.
She's from the news, y'all.
We're official.
We told you guys we're going to be famous.
Yes, true.
That's, you've been saying it episode after episode.
It's going to happen.
They're like, kind of shut up.
I was like, we got one Patreon.
And I was like, that's me.
We do have three now.
It's me, her, and Frida, one of my classmates.
Frida, shout out Frida.
Thanks Frida.
Yes.
She's actually subscribed for more money than I do.
I have a dollar.
And I think Frida has five.
Oh, you have five.
Yeah.
Okay.
Patreon where someone gave a dollar, they're like, hey, go get a nice one.
Yeah, absolutely.
So we do have a Patreon set up.
So if you want to donate, we're trying to get merch out there for people.
Oh, yeah.
So it's patreon.com.
Yes.
Super cool.
We also have Instagram.
We also have email.
We also have Twitter.
Twitter.
I love how you're staring at my camera.
I'm talking on my phone.
You're fine.
I'm just with people.
We're also talking to people out there.
Yes.
Through the power of sound.
Yes.
Coming from the TV world.
I'm like, whoa.
Right.
Yeah.
We're like on all platforms right now.
We're all at the same time.
Should we do a Facebook live at the same time?
I don't have Facebook.
I do.
I'm like, whoa.
That's funny.
I saw Facebook.
I do.
I have Instagram live.
You pretty cool.
Yes.
From my godmother's house.
There is my Godmom's house.
So.
You guys are in closets.
Yes.
And I'm seating on the corner of her bed.
Yes.
There's Chevron above you and there's like Cheetah Bagus and it's a whole moment.
It's the quietest place in the room.
The closet is the easiest because there's no echo.
We would usually have this door closed.
We saw a track of V.O. in here.
It's so nice.
It's a makeshift soundproof room.
Incredible.
People spend thousands of dollars just trying to soundproof their rooms.
I know.
No, just go to J.C. Penny.
A flash sale.
That's all I need.
Do we have Instagram live?
We do.
We have Instagram live.
Let's do it.
Let's see.
Excuse me.
Well, hello.
We are in the middle of recording and being recorded.
Clark.
Yes.
I think we should just like post this up somewhere.
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, we only have like six followers.
Maybe we should share it.
Yeah.
Do you think?
I don't know.
How do we do this?
Oh, you can hear all of that in the mic.
Yeah, it's just a lot of scratching.
That's all right.
I'll just...
We're telling some followers.
So there we go.
We'll just keep it like this.
Yeah.
Is it just looking at it?
It's just getting...
You're hitting that angle.
Yeah.
There you go.
Look.
Perfect.
You got it?
Well, let's see.
All right.
It's live.
Yeah, it's live.
Live and in picture.
Does it save it on Instagram?
I know nothing about it.
There's a setting where you can save it.
Okay.
It's like, do you want to save this or throw it away forever?
Oh, there you go.
It goes to mine.
I just...
The more you know.
Well, because then you can post that same video on Twitter.
Yeah, and on Facebook and stuff.
Okay.
Yeah.
I don't know anything about social media.
Now we get into talking a little bit about some actual mental...
Sure.
Yeah.
We can definitely talk about some stuff.
Yeah.
Just to...
I mean, this is kind of like a...
Diagnosing a Killer started a live video.
So you guys listening are familiar...
I didn't want to go to it.
You what?
Sorry.
You guys listening are familiar to...
Or of the things that we do with our mental breakdown.
But just in case there's anybody new listening, we do break down a specific diagnosis from
the DSM-5 and prior.
And we like to go into detail about the way that that diagnosis presents itself, signs
and symptoms, treatment options, if there's a cure or treatment, you know.
And then, yeah, we kind of like to dive into that because mental health is so stigmatized
and we definitely want to shed light on the fact that the sad reality is that mental health
causes people to commit crimes.
That's why we're here.
Yeah, of course.
I do think that the more opportunities we get to talk about mental disorders, mental
illness and raise more awareness for that, the more opportunities we can come together
as a community and really help and uplift people and focus on helping take care of those
people with specific needs instead of just allowing them to...
Not allowing.
Instead of just having them be tossed to the wayside, you know, possibly end up in jail
or prison.
Even for small petty things, a lot of the times when we see these cases, it starts out
with being arrested for a small amount of marijuana or breaking and entering petty crimes and
they just get stuck in this cycle.
And along with this, I would hope that there are more things towards prison reforms where
you get people like psychologists and psychiatrists that go in there and evaluate these people
more often than not.
I mean, I don't remember what case we did.
It's Andre Thomas.
He's undecided.
Well, Andre Thomas, of course.
There was definitely other instances where people didn't get that evaluation until sometimes
even after they had been sentenced.
And then it's like, well, too late.
Yeah, too little, too late, honestly.
And one of the things I know that you wanted to mention, and I'll just say it now, is that
we really try to be, of course, super respectful to the victims and their stories, also super
respectful to the mental health part of the person of interest, if you will.
We do not use words like crazy, insane, psycho.
Those words mean a lot, and it really holds a lot of weight when you talk about mental
health and mental illness.
So we try to not use those words when we're specifically talking about the diagnosis or
the disorder.
Well, do you want to go a little bit?
I mean, we can stop if we need to.
No, you're good.
I'm just soaking all in.
Okay.
You guys are amazing.
I was like, mm-hmm.
All right.
Oh, I got a question.
Hold the phone.
You're literally holding the phone.
That's hilarious.
Hold the phone.
I'm holding.
You're holding the phone.
Hey, Aubrey.
She said, do you think if people were diagnosed with mental issues, it would slow the crime
rate?
Hmm.
I don't know.
I think that people would be able to actually reach out and get the help that they need
before their crime is worsened.
Absolutely.
I completely agree with you.
I think that diagnosing somebody before they become a criminal or before they are able to
do these charges or at least getting them the help that they need is really, if not
preventative, at least helpful.
For sure.
To just at least know what you have on your hands because we saw it with Richard Trenton
Chase and we saw it with Andre Thomas.
They had, even Richard had the help that he needed and then it was skewed off by his mom
that was like, you know what?
He doesn't need medication and then this kind of avalanche, if you will, kind of happened.
Even Todd Colhub, he had a lot of signs of being really aggressive towards other kids
his own age and things like that.
I feel like if a parent or a teacher had stepped in and kind of been like, okay, these are
clearly warning signs of a troubled kid and what can we do to help him?
Yeah.
And that's a coping mechanism for him.
Even at a young age, you know, it doesn't always have to be medication, but some type
of a positive outlet like a sport or something like that that he could get involved in.
And that's, I think, one of the reasons why we're so passionate about doing this and raising
awareness for this is because people like teachers and first responders, people that
are actively seeing or in a position where they can see these mental illnesses develop
if you present themselves.
Understanding that knowledge could be the difference between life or death for somebody
else.
Right, of course.
Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
And she said, for example, son of Sam, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Arbor, you're dead on.
Yeah.
I'm like trying not to say stuff back here because I'm like...
Please, no, please put your shoes on.
It's so true though, and that's why this is powerful.
And like I, I mean, I'm here, I'm doing a story on this because I'm so, you know, interested
in true crime and that aspect where mental health isn't really talked about a lot and
there can be like a lot of anger or people who are sensationalizing events that happen.
They're really gruesome and affect families and real people in their lives.
Yeah.
And they don't really look at the, the chemical imbalances that someone might have suffered
from a young age.
And when you think about a child growing up and being involved in some kind of trauma,
whether it's molestation or seeing violence in the household, things like that, people
aren't thinking about the fact that you're chemically developing.
Like your brain is forming at that age and you're constantly developing and you're so
impressionable.
And if you're affected by trauma, that affects your actual brain and how it develops.
And like all based on science and research, so I'm not just spewing.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And one of, one of the things that I don't remember what, which mental breaks on it was
that we talked about when we were discussing a certain type of disorder.
But you know, we, we often say, if you have a brain, you're capable of these things.
Anyone with a brain is capable of these mental disorders.
No one's immune.
No one's immune to mental disorders.
I mean, even if it's, you know, acute anxiety disorders that, that you only have for a few
months, everybody experiences these, these types of disorders or at least can relate
because we all have brains.
Yeah.
And that's why we, we frequently shed light on celebrities that are struggling with these
specific type of disorders because we really want to showcase that it's not, and nobody
is immune.
Nobody is not susceptible to mental health.
It can literally happen to anybody.
And when you see somebody that's in the limelight, being able to live this full and magnificent
life or so it seems on the outside, like that gives you hope that if you are struggling
with the same disorder as them, it's not the end.
I'll be all, you know, it's not the end of the world.
And it's accessible and girl.
Oh my gosh.
When he said celebrities, we were on our show, we've talked a lot about Kanye and there's
a period where we had to be really careful and, and I kind of changed my own outlook
because at first you're like, Oh my God, we use that word Kanye, like he's kind of crazy
and we're not sure and what's going on.
Then it came out that he struggles with bipolar disorder, but he's chosen to be off of medication
or the last time that he spoke about, he mentioned that.
And it's very interesting because, you know, I just, I don't know how much I'm going to
share like with my own personal experiences.
But I have, you know, family history and when you hear that diagnosis and the fact that
someone's choosing a different route than medication, they could be avoiding what comes
with side effects.
And I mean, there's just so much.
And so being able to normalize and say, Hey, we're not the only ones like some of the most
successful creative people have ADHD or ADHD.
And that's what makes them beautiful.
That's what makes them so successful and so create.
Yeah.
So to, I don't know, figuring out what needs to be treated and then what's like, well,
this could be helped through therapy or better control certain things.
But if you don't want to be on medication for this specific thing, you don't necessarily
have to.
I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was younger and I did medication probably through the
latter half of elementary school and like some, a little bit of middle school.
But I haven't been on medication since then.
And I just come up with coping mechanisms.
But yeah, like you had a point to that.
I'm sorry.
I'm like, I have ADD and then I literally just had ADD.
You just expect.
Yeah, you experienced it.
First hand live authenticity.
Speaking of live, I'm going to turn this live off.
Okay.
Bye.
Love you.
Bye.
And I'm going to, and now I'm going to put, start live on Facebook because I have more
people on Facebook that can actually watch it.
Oh, I remember kind of what I was going to say.
And I'll just stay off of Instagram.
I know.
It's so much.
Yeah.
And I need to clear my throat.
Oh, we just did it.
There's literally a blooper reel on one of the end of our episodes.
I don't know if you got to that one, but it, it was a heavy one.
It's a lot of just us clearing our throats.
Yeah.
Well, the episode was so heavy.
We decided a little bit of lighthearted bloopers at the end and it's every other clip
is us going, our coughing or clearing our throat.
I did want to touch on, let me start this really quick.
Sorry.
Oh crap.
It's not.
Hello everyone.
We are here actively recording our podcast.
Say hello.
And we are with Clark Finney.
Hi.
So I'm just going to put you guys up here.
If you want to listen in.
Just to piggyback off what we were kind of talking about as far as celebrities that we
do like to reiterate that it does show the difference however between people that have
healthcare availability and the money to be able to take care of themselves in that manner
versus people that aren't able to take care of themselves or find resources.
Yeah.
And that's another reason why we like to do this is that we're showing not only that
we struggle with certain disorders and diagnosis but that we want to raise awareness is really
what it is.
We really want to raise awareness to the people again and give people those resources.
Open up a dialogue about what mental disorders are, what types of signs and symptoms you
can see when talking about those things.
Excuse me.
You're good.
Unfortunately, you see a lot of mental illness in the transient community and that's simply
because people do not have resources like you said or healthcare.
I think it is a crime to not give mental healthcare for free because again you said it perfectly
earlier nobody is immune.
They don't even give you mental health days at work.
The job that I'm currently working at is the only place I have ever worked that actually
takes mental health seriously and they will let you take a mental health day.
Or they'll put you in a different position so you don't have to be in front of guests
but you can still be working and making money.
That's all you can ask for is someone to listen and someone to understand, not even understand
but try to understand what you're feeling because when you're feeling, I mean me personally,
when you're feeling anxiety or panic attack, it feels like there's nothing else that's
ever going to happen.
It's going to be my life forever and then I'm going to die.
This is where you live now.
Yeah, and it really does, it's consuming and it does feel like that.
So somebody to reach out and say, you know what, hey, I hear you.
Let's kind of decompress.
We'll put you in a situation where you can still do your job and make money.
So we're not sending you home but you don't have to be making more and using more anxiety
by talking to guests.
I just wish a lot more jobs gave support like that.
Is it really, is it worth someone's mental health?
No.
To give them a day off?
It's not.
Or a few hours off?
I mean, yes it is.
I mean, no it's not.
Yeah, I think it's, yeah.
It totally is.
I think that there's definitely some changes that need to be made.
So I love talking about this kind of stuff.
Absolutely.
Because the more people that are aware and the more people that take action when it comes
to those things and request those things, the more it's going to happen.
And the less stigmatized it'll be.
It won't be, oh, you're having anxiety or you have depression.
Depression.
Oh, God forbid.
It'll be like, oh, hey, thanks for telling me.
Let's go, let's do this.
And then more people will get to know the tools and resources available to help others
when they're feeling like that.
Right, absolutely.
I mean, you don't truly understand it unless you experience it.
However, there's plenty of research and plenty of empathy to go around or sympathy at least
to go around when it comes to that.
You want to get into a little bit of mental breakdown?
We can do a little bit of, yeah.
Let me see here.
I feel like I'm just spying on you.
Oh, it's okay.
A little bit.
We have a very bright light.
That was really powerful and so true.
Thank you.
Especially in the news industry.
Yeah, absolutely.
I can hear Mary talking out there.
I know.
Well, this is all going to be, I think this is great content.
I think this is all going to be probably posted.
We're going to just go ahead and post this episode, probably not even edit it.
Put it out there raw and real and authentic.
Yeah, I kind of like it.
It'll be a bonus to the bonus.
We've been getting so much better about our time when we're sitting in our closet and
recording that we very, I mean, correct me.
You're the one that does all the editing.
She does all the editing.
Yeah, I love that she gives me credit.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Have you noticed that it's easier to edit now?
I feel like we hop in and we talk and we try to stay on track.
Yeah, but there's also, what the hell was, oh, your phone is vibrating.
It's like, it's like, it's vibrating.
That was really loud.
I was going to say, it's also, now that we have learned how to record, we stop talking
for a really long time and then I'll know it's coming in the editing because it'll be
like a whole three minutes of just nothing and I'm like, all right, just click through.
We'll have a break.
Time and space collides, a putty break.
We actually have been talking recently about putting out an episode with no editing at
all.
I think this just might be the one.
It might just be this one.
I mean, this is all real.
You can hear me clearing my throat all the time.
Let me see.
I don't know what I want to talk about.
I just feel like my OCD notes are so bam, bam, bam, bam.
We don't have to jump right into it and give facts and stuff.
Okay.
So I can do, what if we just do like little bullet points of certain cases or certain
mental breakdown, like mental breakdown topics.
Yeah.
If you listen to any episode, this is the one that'll entice you to go back and listen
to the other ones.
So let's talk about OCD and let's talk about obsessive compulsive disorder.
So the persistence of one or both of these behaviors may indicate OCD.
One would be the reoccurrent and persistent thoughts, urges or images that are experienced
at some point during the disturbance, described as intrusive, unwanted, and in most individuals
cause notable anxiety or distress.
The second criteria would be that the individual attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts,
urges or images or to neutralize them in some thought or action that is done by performing
a compulsion.
So again, when we discuss this on our mental breakdown, we question whether or not if you
can have one without the other.
Do you remember?
So if you have reoccurrent and persistent thoughts, urges or images that are experienced,
you might be able to just have that portion and it's still meet the criteria for OCD,
but it also may develop into the act, like performing the act, which would be the second
half, which is the compulsion.
So you can have obsessive compulsive, well, obsessive thoughts and then the compulsion.
So there's actually a very similar sounding mental illness.
The OCD is called OCPD.
I learned about it recently in my abnormal psychology class.
So OCD is exactly what you just described.
OCPD is obsessive compulsive personality disorder.
And the difference is that somebody that is struggling with OCD knows that their compulsions
are not normative, not normal, but not normative.
That's the compulsion.
They are aware of that.
Somebody with obsessive compulsive personality disorder doesn't think there's anything going
on.
They just think that that's what they need to do to get by and that there's nothing wrong
with that.
I'll just say there's anything wrong with having either one of those disorders, but
that's the difference in the thought process.
I know this is something that not anybody else does, but I need to do it or no, you
guys are the ones that are wrong.
That's the difference.
And we also talked about also in this mental breakdown about good, fair or poor insight
into your own disorder and that a better insight into your disorder the more you learn about
it, the less likely you are to have those compulsions.
And this is the same thing with dissociative identity disorder.
It's a lot easier to manage that disorder and to treat and live with that disorder if
all of your identities are aware that you have the disorder.
But if there's one that's blocking it out or maybe nobody knows about it, it's very
hard to treat or even diagnose that disorder.
I told you in the mental breakdown about that one, it takes a total of not a total, but
an average of four incorrect diagnoses in order to diagnose someone properly with dissociative
identity disorder and it can take up to 11 years to get that diagnosis.
And it's simply because they don't show and they don't switch during appointments or during
therapy sessions.
And we also discussed in that mental breakdown that it's just such a highly stigmatized disorder
because people think that it's fake.
People even think that psychiatrists think that it's fake and they're just using it as
something like a bandaid to kind of diagnose someone.
It's medication and a lot of very well-known psychiatrists have come out and said, no,
this is an absolutely real, real diagnosis.
Mental disorder, yeah.
And so in the DSM class, exactly.
It was a real diagnosis.
There's a couple things in the DSM class that shouldn't be in there.
That one is good.
Just personal thoughts.
That's a personal thought.
Yeah, I thought that was really interesting.
Yeah.
Just a little tidbit about OCD there.
Yeah.
That's a good one.
I don't think that we've discussed, and I think that what we actually did discuss about
OCD as it relates to people that commit crimes is that usually if somebody that is a killer,
somebody that commits a crime is struggling with OCD, there's another diagnosis that out
shines OCD.
So OCD is not the forward presenting diagnosis, which is why they don't say, okay, this killer
had OCD.
They said, well, this killer may have had OCD, but they also had personality disorder or
schizophrenia, schizophrenia spectrum, and things like that.
So it's not, I think that's why we don't see it a lot in killers.
They're not like, oh, well, he had OCD and that's why he killed.
That's not the highlight of their diagnosis.
I thought I had that in my notes, but it turns out I didn't.
Okay.
So I don't know what I did with my notes.
I have my little notes on here though about the celebrities, which Maria Bamford was on
there, which I love Maria Bamford.
She's just like, she's my gal.
I love her.
Yeah.
And just talking a little bit about some cases that we've done, another type of diagnosis
that we've come across quite often is borderline personality disorder or antisocial personality
disorder, which I have the difference in my mind.
Yes.
Because I just got test over this to do it.
My final exam was a better note.
I'm making fanolings.
Yeah.
This one here is just like heavy breathing in the background while I listen to you.
So antisocial, antelua.
See this is where we have to edit things out because we do that.
Triple our words.
And then that's the blooper that was going, blah, blah, blah.
So antisocial personality disorder is classified as a personality disorder in which the person
has antisocial tendencies, of course, but they kind of retreat from every walks of life,
like school, work, relationships, but they, in turn, they also don't care.
So they don't care who they harm.
They don't have the ability.
Yes.
They don't have the ability.
Yes.
The way that the disorder makes you think.
Presents itself.
Yeah.
It's not a kind of, of really caring for anything, you know, but it also comes with not having
any kind of remorse or guilt for things that harm others, which is where the, sometimes
there are killers that are diagnosed with this disorder.
And that's where they come in without the lack of empathy or the lack of sympathy.
That's part of that disorder.
Borderline personality disorder is a little bit different.
It's categorized by somebody that has intense fear of being either rejected or not loved,
and they're always trying to overcompensate for that.
They care too much is that's, that's the biggest thing of their diagnosis.
So they will purposefully stay in abusive relationships or toxic relationships because
they're so afraid of not being in a relationship or being with that person.
They usually engage.
It was Kristen Gilbert, right?
Kristen Gilbert was borderline.
I think she was, well, I think she might be narcissistic personality disorder, which is
a little different.
I think, but they kind of go hand in hand.
You can have more than one at once.
No, of course.
And that's what you talk about when you talk about like comorbidity and things like that.
Yeah, exactly.
And so another thing of borderline personality disorder is that people that are suffering
from that usually engage in self-harming behaviors and toxic kind of rituals, if you
will, when they are trying to deal with, they talk negatively to themselves or they constantly
are judging themselves in the mirror and they have all these negative ideals, but they never
seem to be able to get out of a negative situation.
Does that make sense here?
Bong.
I thought Kristen Gilbert was anti-social personality disorder because she was so hardcore
with Glenn, remember?
Yeah.
So she told, she would fabricate her suicide attempts and things like that.
Yeah.
And she told, she had told one of her boyfriends that she had swallowed glass.
Scary.
Just for the, not for the attention, but to garner sympathy and sympathy from someone.
So that's why I thought maybe she was anti-so, I'm sorry, borderline because she never wanted
to let any boyfriend go.
She was, I don't want to say boy crazy, but you know, then she really hung her hat on
relationships for sure.
Absolutely.
All right.
I'm going to turn this live off as we go.
Okay, bye.
I love you.
Bye.
Has a wave just gone.
Hello.
I'm going to find this to you somehow.
What was that on Facebook?
Oh, mom and Ronnie were watching.
Oh.
Okay.
I'm going to add that to my bracelet.
Next to your $1,000 bracelet.
One.
I don't know.
That was an estimate.
I don't know how much it actually is.
I don't know what those charms add up.
Yeah.
They really do, especially now.
I see women with the bracelets and I'm like, okay, I'm intimidated to even try to start
one.
It's like a commitment.
Those are all gifts.
It's like, I came for college.
You're interested in getting your first car.
Yeah.
I add that charm to your charm bracelet.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Do you have anything you want to add to the podcast?
I think we're about, I mean, what time is it?
We're 30 minutes into the podcast.
I'm saying, I don't know if we want to keep recording or if we...
Oh, my gosh, it's like 30 minutes?
Yeah.
We're 30 minutes into recording.
That's crazy.
Sometimes, yeah, I'll just, I'll say, what time are we at?
Yeah.
Because I'm almost towards the end of my case and she's like, I'm like an hour and 30 minutes.
I was like, oh my gosh, I've been in here for an hour and 30 minutes.
Your butt will fall asleep on these tie-shers.
Yeah.
Well, we usually record two episodes at once.
We'll record the entire case, which is usually about over an hour and then we'll immediately
record the mental breakdown so that we can just get everything out there and I'll have
plenty of time to edit.
Yeah.
You guys are, we're exposing our secrets to you guys.
One of the things that we really pride ourselves on is that we don't tell each other what
we're doing.
So all of our reactions are genuine reactions.
Yeah.
Because you always get me.
Halfway through my case, you're always like, I remember this.
Oh, I know.
I'm like, dammit.
I'm signing new information because she doesn't need it.
She doesn't need it.
She knows everything.
The mental breakdown ones are a lot of, I don't know, fun, but they're interesting.
It gets the point to where when you start, you probably know, Clark.
Once you sink your teeth into something and you just try to dig and dig and dig and dig
and dig for forever, it's the best.
It feels so rewarding.
You learn so much new stuff.
Even with the cases, I'll start researching a case that I think I know inside out and,
whoa, I'm taking for a ride.
I'm like, hold on.
Hold on.
What?
I'm like, I'm going to stop.
The case might actually be incorrect.
Yeah.
Seriously.
Hold on.
He's in jail.
Yeah.
It's so fun.
And then just to, again, like to bring an aspect of just like giggling about things, you
know, and, but to also appreciate the seriousness in the content is like huge.
It's huge.
And one of the biggest things too that we wanted to do coming into this is, you know, of course,
let's be respectful to everybody's story deserves to be told.
Let's be respectful of that.
We'll be respectful of the crime that took place, but we're also going to be respectful
of this mental illness that has such power over people.
And we really want to hone in on, you know, I think I told you maybe off camera earlier
or off mic that, you know, people kind of gloss over when somebody I hear it on other
podcasts and not to mention anybody specifically, but I've heard it before.
And even on, you know, DateLine or any date line, I don't watch that.
20, 20, 20 hours.
Yeah.
Any true crime, you know, Netflix show or TV show, they always gloss over the mental
illness.
They say, well, he was schizophrenic, but which is not the correct way to say that.
But he was also a piece of shit.
So this and that and the other.
I'm like, no, sorry, I probably can't say that.
My bad.
I'd like a cute little.
And then just cute.
Let's do that.
Yes.
Yeah, but it is true.
They gloss over it.
And it's like, no, you're missing the fact that the mental disorder could have caused
this, this crime to have occurred.
And you know, like, it's a story within that story.
Yeah.
And that's, yeah.
And that's a story that deserves to be told as well as the victim's story.
Yeah.
So we're not by any means saying that these people do not deserve to be held accountable
for what they're doing, we're also saying at the same time that, I mean, in certain instances,
I'll just say with Andre Thomas, I don't think he deserves to be on death row.
I completely agree with the fact he needs to be incarcerated, maybe in a mental health
unit to get the help that he needs.
But death row, I think it's a little harsh for Andre Thomas when he was clinically and
I, they, they tried the insanity defense with him and it didn't work.
He asked for help his whole life.
He asked for help.
And he never once received it.
And I mean, like blatantly ignored, like he went into a mental health clinic and they
told him, go to the ER if you're suicidal, they sent him away.
It's like, it literally gives me goosebumps.
That's so heartbreaking.
And he didn't go.
There was nobody there to escort him.
He says that he's going to harm himself, maybe others.
And they say, go to the ER if you think you're going to harm someone, because clearly you're
having an episode of some kind and instead of being escorted by professionals that do
that, he was turned away and he never saw help after that.
Because how many times can you ask?
Yeah.
And then in court, when they did finally get him in court, their defenses are, I'm sorry,
the prosecution's excuse, if you will, was that he induced psychosis by using drugs and
alcohol.
Like you can't induce a mental illness, but you could exasperate it.
But you can't induce a mental illness and you also need to take into consideration the
fact that he's using drugs and alcohol to try to suppress it.
It's a terrible case.
But you don't know because it exacerbated those symptoms that he already had.
And you're especially someone like, I have a family member who is an alcoholic and they
don't realize it.
And it does, like, it can change your personality if you have a disorder already and you think,
oh, well, I'm numbing it because you want to escape the inside of your own mind.
And that's the only way that you know how to do it.
Or you were taught here, I can't pursue mental health help.
I can't go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist because you were taught to pray it away or
grew up in a culture, especially within black culture, I have a mixed family.
But it was very much like I know my grandmother would not support my family members in getting
help for mental health.
So that affected my parents and my aunts.
And turn effects you?
I'm a huge believer that alcohol and drug abuse is a symptom of a bigger issue.
Of course.
And most often that issue is trauma.
And so again, you know, there's one of our mental breakdowns is PTSD and the different
forms that trauma can take.
And that's a really big one for me.
Oh, of course.
Both of us.
For both of us.
Yeah, we both have, I mean, the biggest, I think, at least for me personally, I don't
want to speak for both of us.
But the biggest reason why I am advocating so hard for mental health is because of our
sister.
So we had another sister with us and she's no longer with us.
And she's just struggled, excuse me, with a lot of mental illness and it runs in our
family.
And I think that's why we're so passionate about it.
Because I don't want to see that happen to anybody else.
I want everybody to be able to get, and that's where all that compassion comes from, you
know, when, you know, when I'm with, you know, people, nobody close to me, but you know,
you hear people all the time, oh, that homeless guy is crazy.
You know, I'm like, no, you don't know that person.
You don't know their story.
Like, and also being on the street like that and being in survival mode where your body
and your mind reverts back to this fight or flight.
Like you, people don't realize that when you're in survival mode and you don't have a home
or a place where you feel sheltered or safe or like you can call your own, you're literally
out in the world.
I mean, you're staying up late at night.
You're maybe that high.
Yeah, circadian rhythms.
Yeah, yeah.
Everything circadian rhythm, which I mean, girl, the fact you guys are so I just, I was
going to say that same thing.
It's so true though, and people don't think about it.
And it's like, of course, you're going to look frazzled or, you know, a little out of
it.
Yeah.
That has been your life for a certain amount of time.
Yeah, I talk to myself when I do the dishes and I talk to myself all the time.
If I was standing, you know, on a corner at a bus stop and I happen to be talking to myself
or whatever, like, you don't, you don't know me.
You don't know them.
Yeah.
And I think the image is just like, it sounds so silly.
Like if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
But it's so true.
But I mean, you don't know what that person's dealing with mentally.
And yeah.
The best way that I've heard of explained, which is one of my professors, Dr. Combock,
she explained it to us in the beginning of our abnormal psychology class.
She wrote on the whiteboard a spectrum of IQ and 100 being in the middle.
She looked it up recently, 160 is the highest.
Yes.
Stephen Hawking was 160.
But she...
He set the standard.
Yeah.
So the spectrum of IQ, she had 100 in the middle.
She put a dash over here on the lower spectrum and a dash over here on the higher spectrum.
And she said, this person over here towards the lower spectrum, you would consider to
be abnormal or non-normative.
You would also consider this person over here to be abnormal and non-normative.
So what is not normal?
You would consider this person gifted and you would consider this person challenged.
And that's where the stigma comes from.
Right.
Wow.
Isn't that so powerful?
I have goosebumps.
Yeah, because you think about Stephen Hawking, I mean, even socially, there are certain
people who have, and I fully believe we all of course have different capacities socially,
emotionally, physically, but to see that comparison, you do think about that.
Like while some of the most intelligent people in the world, like doctors, surgeons, people
who dedicate their lives to helping others within that high capacity and their field,
sometimes don't have the best social skills or can't read a room or they communicate with
other people, might not be, you know, like the way that that person is used to being
communicated with and so they might come on a certain way when they don't intend it.
So it's like assuming somebody's unintelligent because they don't speak the same language
as you.
It's the same thing.
Right.
It's not that he's unintelligent, you just can't communicate with him.
It's not something about autism and it's so true because it's just this whole other
world and we have understanding and sensing things that you don't understand.
So it's trying to learn from, like how are you learning, how are you seeing this?
Yeah, exactly.
Honestly, there's some cases of autism, like it's, and I don't want to get in trouble
or whatever, but I think it's a gift because it's a different lens that you're able to
see the world through.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And learn how to respond in this different language.
If you don't want that in there, we don't.
It's okay.
Yeah.
But I mean, there's, yeah, there's organizations and nonprofits on kind of like, let's keep
an eye on them because we're speaking about this and trying to press kind of a culture
of awareness where people think, oh my gosh, we have to help these poor kids.
There are certain cases where yes, people may need extra help, but there's others where
it's like, no, there's a lot that we could be learning.
Yeah, of course.
They're actually highly intelligent.
And that goes for anybody.
Oh, for sure.
Any, even any mental illness, it goes, I mean, you could learn so much about the brain,
about everything, just from talking, having a conversation with somebody, especially somebody
with DID or somebody that's on the schizophrenia spectrum.
That's, I feel like that's so interesting.
And as long as they're getting the treatment that they need and the help they need, like
that's all that matters.
And you can learn from that.
And everybody can look like it's such a widespread, the brain is like 8% discovered.
We don't know anything about the brain.
It's crazy because we have, we were born into our bodies.
Like we will never fully, people dedicate their whole lives, which I am thankful for
science and discovery and people investing resources.
But sometimes people will dedicate their whole lives into learning about this one thing.
Like I need to know about the brain or science or like how were we all created?
The big boom or was it what?
And almost obsessing over it.
And it's like, we will never know.
Like we have to be comfortable with understanding that there is universes and galaxies and there
are things that we are not meant to understand that we will never understand within our own
capacities, no matter how hard we try, because we're not meant to.
And that's like a whole other conversation.
That's more like spirituality and everything.
Like we are very human.
And so trying to better understand, great.
But like there's also resources and help out there.
People that have higher capacities for, I'm like taking over this whole conversation.
No, we love this.
This is so amazing.
You're actively getting us listeners talking.
But it's so, I don't know, it's so, it blows my mind that people can get obsessed or think,
oh, that person, they don't need help.
You shouldn't, counseling shouldn't be a thing like pray it away or whatever it is.
And it's like the brain itself is so powerful.
Yeah.
And we're thinking chemicals that are so powerful.
Like we will never fully understand this stuff that we just don't know.
The way of thinking is evolving as well too.
You know, especially with like the mental health stigma and the, you know, stereotypes,
I feel like, at least for me personally, and this just might be my generation, but I feel
like a lot more people are talking about it.
It's not so like taboo, you know, to be mentally.
I was going to say it gives me hope, but I said help.
It gives me hope because like, I feel like this generation to me included, so I'm definitely
a millennial in 28, but it's because of what we experienced with parents and grandparents
who were not treated.
Yeah.
We're not getting help.
Absolutely.
And the trauma kind of like inspired us to be like, I don't want my kids to have to deal
with this.
Right.
Like what can I do now?
And it sucks because it's like you have to go through it and experience horrible things
sometimes.
Yeah.
But then you come out on the other side and go, okay, I know exactly what not to do.
For sure.
And I think a lot of it is introspective as well.
Like I feel like I know so much more about myself and my, you know, potential disorders
and things like that, not that I've been diagnosed with anything other than ADD, but you see
again, like those signs or those symptoms and you become aware of who you are as a person
and then it's easier to connect with someone else because you might see a little bit of
yourself in that person.
Yeah.
And you have a lot of compassion for that person.
Yeah.
I agree.
I think I feel the same way introspectively.
That's a good way of putting it because I mean, three years ago, or not, I would say
probably seven years ago when I would experience anxiety, I had no idea what it was.
Three years ago, I would freak out, freak out, freak out and say, there's no way I could
be suffering from anything other than just anxiety.
And now in my current state, now that I've gone through therapy and stuff, it's not far
fetched to say that I could have PTSD.
And that's just me talking with my therapist.
But you think, and people have, I mean, even me, I'm not prone, I'm not immune to it.
Like you have these ideas about what a diagnosis should look like and who it should be on.
PTSD, a lot of people think is reserved for war veterans, which I'm not discounting the
fact that a lot of veterans do suffer from PTSD, but you don't have to be in that specific
situation.
PTSD can be caused by anything, you know?
And so I think, and that actually helps me get through now, when I'm experiencing anxiety
now, I tell myself, okay, it's just anxiety, it'll go away, it's not going to be forever,
you know?
And I wasn't able to do that.
I mean, even a few months ago, I wasn't able to do that.
And that's again, like when we talked about, you know, somebody's prognosis for maintaining
more of a hold on their diagnosis and being able to like fully understand it, the better
that you understand it, the more you can, like, that light.
Yeah.
So sorry.
No, it's okay.
But again, the better hold you have on your diagnosis or potential diagnosis, the more
you're able to recognize it.
And you, again, you can come up with coping mechanisms.
Of course, listen to your doctor.
Don't just like, come up with your own coping mechanism.
If you have something that you're concerned about, please talk to the doctor.
Everybody grieves and not grieves.
Everybody deals with things differently.
And so what might work for you might not work for someone else.
Right.
So.
Okay, I'm about to get out of this chair.
My butt is hurting.
My Fitbit's yelling at me.
It's like standing.
Thank you so much for being here with us.
Thank you so much, Clark.
This is so fun.
Is there anything you want to say to the camera or to the microphone?
You have the camera.
I just want to say I'm so impressed by you both.
And this is so incredible.
I wish that I had something like this when I was growing up, when I was younger, even
though this is more like true crime oriented.
These conversations are so important and to see that you guys have learned not only through
school and personal experiences, but through actually getting help, talking about this
and normalizing certain things.
Like that's, it's going to change lives and it's so needed, especially in this time.
And I just have a lot of hope in our generations and the change that's to come.
Like I'm so impressed by even what's on TikTok and on social media and how people are talking
about it.
And I feel like ultimately getting to better understand these disorders not only will it
help us, you know, love people and other people, but it'll also help us love ourselves
better.
Absolutely.
And I think that's the way of, you know, the things that we were taught makes something
wrong with us or need prayer or a priest or whatever it is.
Like there's actual treatment and in a lot of cases there's natural remedies.
And just to add, like I experienced severe anxiety in college and I was telling you guys
before we even start filming, it was a lot and I thought it was a hard issue.
And I went to the yard a couple of times and doctors were straight up telling me, well,
let's do blood work and figure it out.
Couldn't pinpoint it.
And then someone finally said, I think you're having panic attacks.
So I did therapy and I was on a low dose of Xanax, which looking back, I'm like, I've
heard things about Xanax and from different psychiatrists where they prefer not to use
that.
But at the time I was on it and I remember I was driving and like mid panic attack and
took a half tablet for the first time because my therapist or psychiatrist said, just take
a half tablet whenever you feel the symptoms coming on and then relax.
And so I would have to stop the car, pull over whatever it is.
Most of the time it was like when I was driving to my apartment and would take the medicine
and I felt the relief.
And then that's what pulled me out of the initial physical reaction where I was like,
oh my gosh, I'm okay.
I'm not going to die.
I'm not having a heart issue.
It feels like that sometimes.
It does.
And but to feel that relief, it was like, okay, that was a temporary thing.
So after a while of me doing that and then going to therapy, we got to the root of where
the anxiety was coming from.
And then I got to do breathing exercises and different things every time I would have a
panic attack.
And it eventually got to the point, like it's making me emotional.
But it got to the point where one day I had a panic attack and my pills were sitting there
and I was like, okay, that's there just in case they need it.
But let me see, like let me process this for myself and do everything my therapist taught
me, breathe and whatever it is and take a second and that's there if I need it.
And I got through a whole panic attack without needing to take my medication.
And that was such a defining term point in my life.
And I was like, wow, I can do it and after a while, I no longer needed the medication.
And that's such a like such a breakthrough.
I mean, like, honestly, I commend you for that.
A lot of people don't even attempt to try to do that.
You know, they just kind of want to rely on something that's easy and that's not easy.
So I mean, honestly, good for you.
It was so hard.
And then eventually getting off of that.
And now I'm on a different medication, which is really it's changed my life.
It's amazing.
But just to go through that and know, okay, I can get off this medication.
It was only a temporary thing.
But there are a lot of cases where you might need medication for the rest of your life.
Of course, everyone's different.
And that is fine.
You know, like chemical imbalances are just that you're not in control of them.
So I've I've just been it's been really good.
Like I've long story short, I'm on well beach and right now, which I haven't told anyone
like not even post on social media or anything because I used to be so afraid of like talking
about that because, you know, TV and a lot, you know, there's still like misconceptions
and opinions that people have.
But I realized that that whole culmination of anxiety and college was just a lot of the
college pressure, but also a lot of trauma experience growing up.
And so going through and having anxiety my whole life, I realized that I was just powering
through certain things and working at basically all my mental emotional energy to fight this
anxiety and this depression, which is a mood disorder that stems from my family's history
of manic bipolar disorder.
And it's very common, which I just found out last year, kids of people with manic bipolar
to have some kind of mood disorder, whether it's severe or mild.
So now I'm on a very low dose of well beach and it literally it changed my whole life.
And I didn't know that feeling just okay.
Yeah, it was possible.
Absolutely.
And I'm at this point in my career and this height in my career.
So it's like I've gone through all these different moments where I've had to be introspective
and I've had to like take accountability for certain outbursts or things that have happened
in relationships in the past.
Yeah.
Like it's a lot, but being able to still be successful and to push through it's like
you can do it if you're going through something right now and you haven't wanted to try medication
or you're afraid to try therapy.
You've made it this far and I just encourage you if you are still weighing like, I don't
know if I want to do it, get help because it will literally change your life.
You're not alone.
There's someone out there who's trained and who's qualified to help you.
And other people have this too.
Yeah.
I just don't feel like you're alone.
Your story reminds me of some...
I like how this was a wrap up.
I'm like...
No, it's okay.
No, I don't know what you guys would like to say.
Yes, my whole life's...
Here it is.
It's just sort of when I get off the womb.
Someone had passed along this information and they said, this person was dealing with
something that a coping mechanism that they had developed through trauma.
And they said, what that is is a skill.
That anxiety that you had that was created was a skill at one point, but it no longer
serves you.
And now you're developing another skill, right?
Oh my God, I wasn't ready for that.
Me neither.
Or Finney, ladies and gentlemen.
Me neither.
I need the tissue.
Hey, but that's literally what this is about though.
We all like to listen to the gory details of true crime.
We all have a weird morbid interest in that.
That is not the root of this podcast.
But we're so thankful for this platform and for this conversation in general, but that's
what this is about is having those hard conversations and knowing that you're not the only one
that feels that way.
And again, I say this all the time, and I'm going to say it again, nobody is immune to
this.
It can happen to anybody.
And anxiety disorder is the most common mental disorder in the United States.
I would say the prevalence is like 80-something percent.
It is up there.
Absolutely.
With the pandemic?
Oh my gosh, let's talk about it.
Well, and I'm thankful for telemedicine at this point.
Of course.
Yeah.
I think it's given a lot of people a chance to be with themselves and experience themselves
and realize, okay, well, if I need therapy, bam, I'm just going to zoom it, which is
amazing.
It's so cool.
We've come so far.
We've come to visit someone.
I mean, yeah, even a phone conversation.
If you're driving to work, you know, you call someone and be able to talk to them.
My therapist is actually based out of Dallas.
And so we do tell him that, I mean, we've been chatting since the pandemic.
Sorry.
Because I just wanted to check in with myself.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then I realized that all the things I thought I had processed and I was good.
I'm like, great, I'm at this perfect place in my life.
Everything came out and I was like, oh my gosh.
So I'm slowly getting there right now.
I'm scared, but I'm doing it.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Yes.
You can like pinpoint the reasoning and just better understand how to move forward and
how to cope with certain things and getting rid of those old coping.
Like you mentioned, that just made me have a breakdown just now.
But things that you, that turn into coping and no longer serve you because you're in
this next, like you're constantly changing your constant growing and different things
are going to happen in your life where you'll be able to better cope with them because you
got the help sooner.
Right.
Absolutely.
The example that I like to use is that like, if it's whether it's grief or trauma or anxiety,
that doesn't get any smaller.
You just grow around it.
You get bigger and you get more able to deal with it.
And eventually it's so small because you're so big.
You don't feel it anymore.
You don't feel it anymore, like a panic attack minimizes down to like an invasive thought.
Oh my gosh.
What if, and then you're like, oh no, that's not real.
That's just me being anxious.
You're fine girl.
Then you're fine.
And you can kind of joke with yourself and celebrate it in a way.
You're like, you're like, girl, it's not that serious.
And then, but you get to enjoy being you in the process and like owning the fact that
that's what makes you.
And like you said, there's skills like people who struggle with certain disorders because
you survived like this is you not choosing death as your option.
Right.
It's adaptability.
You're right.
You're adapting.
Your way out of it, even though you didn't ask for it, right.
You might not have deserved it.
Like you did what you need to at the time to survive.
And then when you realize you no longer need that thing, you need to figure out, okay,
what's my next step?
Like how do I now?
How do I survive this?
And you just keep going.
Never settle full body heaps.
Oh, the full body of the jeeps.
The jeeps.
Yes.
Wow.
Well, thank you again.
Like seriously so much for being here with us.
Thank you.
This is really cool.
Honestly, I'm just going to put this if that's okay with you.
No editing.
Just throw this out there.
If that's okay.
Throw it out there.
If you want me to take anything out, I will.
And I can even take this out.
If you want me to.
No, I say leave it.
Yeah.
This is like a first.
This is a huge.
Yeah.
Do you want us to send you a copy first?
No.
I'll still send you a copy.
Still send you a copy.
You're going to catch it on.
Is your camera still on?
No, I didn't say battery.
So I'm like, cause I still have to interview you guys separately.
Oh yeah.
Oh, okay.
Well, let's do that.
We could literally sit here all day.
All right.
We love you guys.
Love you guys.
Bye.
I was like, you have to say that.