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Hello. Hello. Welcome back to Diagonising a Killer, the fifth episode.

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Fifth episode. We're getting down to the...

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I mean, we're like practically famous.

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Yeah, I think so. I think, like, it's already gone to my head.

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Yeah. I'm famous.

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And we're rich billionaires now, so...

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Yup.

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There's no need to do...

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Yeah, there's no need to do any more of these after this episode.

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You know what? I think we're done.

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We're just gonna retire.

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Definitely.

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So, before we get into the case, I just kind of want to really quickly touch...

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There is gonna be involvement of child murder and some pretty graphic things.

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The victim is very young, the killer is very young, and that's just a trigger warning.

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If you don't want to hear that, I'm gonna talk about that.

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So, this might not be the episode for you.

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Without further ado, I am going to just jump right into it.

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We're gonna be talking about Maddie Clifton today.

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She is the victim, and Josh Phillips is the suspect or the killer.

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But first, I want to talk about Maddie because she just seemed like an all-around badass of a little girl.

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How old was she?

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She was 8.

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8?

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Yes.

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So, just kind of going back to the day everything happened.

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On November 3rd, 1998, Sheila Clifton, Maddie's mom, came home from voting.

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It was actually election day, so she voted that day.

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She saw Maddie, and as she was coming home, Maddie was running out the door to go play.

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She promised her mom, I'll be back for dinner, don't worry, I'm just gonna go play with the neighborhood kids.

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Because they were all really close.

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And it was 1998, so kids did that then.

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That's what you do in true 90s fashion.

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So, she was last seen actually hitting some golf balls, and then she actually returned home to grab some more, and then she went back out.

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She was 8, and she's playing golf.

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Yeah, just like for funsies.

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It's like, who introduced you to golf?

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That's not us.

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I mean, I played golf when I was 8 with Dad.

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But when I went to play with the neighborhood kids, it was generally like riding bikes, not playing golf.

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Yeah, right, so what about us?

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So, unfortunately, this time when she returned home to get more golf balls, that was the last time that she was seen by her family.

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She did have an older sister, and her dad was obviously there at the time as well.

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So, Maddie of course deserves to be known for the good parts of her life.

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So I kind of want to go through just a couple of things that I read about her.

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She was known for being a little girl that could like really resonate with people, so she was really bright.

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She was like really...

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Is she outgoing?

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Yeah, like she wasn't afraid to have conversations with adults.

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Like she just wanted to know everybody.

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She had no stranger danger.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And she just loved everybody.

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She was friends with everybody.

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She always made the people that weren't, I guess, popular kind of...

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She tried to go out of her way to like talk to them and make them feel like, you know, good.

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She had brown hair and brown eyes, and then a face full of freckles.

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So just like the cutest...

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Post a picture of her whenever we post this episode, and she was just the cutest little girl.

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She loved a lot of activities.

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These included piano, golf, basketball, and baseball.

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Oh my gosh.

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She played a lot of sports.

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She's multi-talented.

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Yeah.

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All around tomboy, and I loved that because that was me growing up.

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So it was mentioned that she could actually...

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Someone just made a little comment about her after the fact.

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They're like, you know, she could be wearing a tutu one minute, and then the next minute she's digging in the dirt for worms.

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She was just one of those little girls.

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Yeah.

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It's like a Junie B. Jones.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I loved those books growing up.

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Oh my God.

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Like literally, when I went to middle school, I asked them, like the librarian, I was like,

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do you guys have any Junie B. Jones?

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And she was like, this is middle school, honey.

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We don't carry those elementary books.

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Ew.

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All right.

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It's like, I'm 12.

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I'm so glad you're reading.

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Yeah.

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And it was...

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Another account mentioned that when she would watch TV, she would actually...

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I love this so much.

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She would root for like the bad guy or the scary guy because she didn't like the idea of people being lonely or like feeling isolated.

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Aw.

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So she would be like, go bad guy.

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Like, I don't want you to be sad, you know, or a friend friend.

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Poor Frankenstein's monster.

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Literally.

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So pure.

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So because of this mentality, like I said earlier, Maddie was friends with everybody.

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One of the people that she was frequently friends with, and you know what I always go out to play, was her across the street neighbor, 14-year-old Josh Phillips.

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Joshua Phillips.

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Okay.

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Josh was much older than her, of course, but by all accounts, he wasn't as intellectually developed as a 14-year-old.

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I actually read one report that said he was...

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He had the brain of an eight-year-old or like the mental capacity of an eight-year-old.

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That was never like diagnosed or anything, but he was just kind of a strange kid.

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Yeah.

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You know?

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Didn't really fit in.

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He was stunted somewhere in his life, probably.

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Yeah.

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And we'll learn later that he was severely abused.

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So I think that might have something to do with it.

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Yeah.

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Of course, Josh had a rough childhood with an alcoholic father who would frequently abuse him and his mother.

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They were both terrified of his father, Steve Phillips, his name, and they hated living with him.

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I mean, of course, I mean, I would...

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Why wouldn't you?

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Exactly.

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Like one does.

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The father had a lot of really strict rules.

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He didn't like it when Josh had friends over, and weirdly, he had an extreme disliking for little girls.

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The father did?

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Yeah.

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I mean, I guess it's better than having an extreme liking for little girls, but like...

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Yeah.

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That's weird.

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Still, yeah.

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And Josh was an only child.

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Actually, I think I'm wrong.

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I think he had an older brother, but he didn't have a sister as far as I know.

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Yeah.

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So I don't know why...

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I don't know.

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That's really interesting.

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Like maybe it's...

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I don't know.

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Like, I don't know what the psychology behind that would be.

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Yeah.

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Like why would you...

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Maybe?

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Maybe because they're weak or...

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Well, I was gonna say...

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Or he raised two boys and...

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I don't know.

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Yeah, but I mean, he's not really relating here, but maybe he like did have a liking for them,

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and he made...

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He thought that...

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Obviously knew that was a bad thought, so he was like, can we just stay away from him?

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Yeah.

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Maybe he just...

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It made him uncomfortable.

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He turned it into anger instead of...

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Yeah.

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I mean, I don't know.

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I don't know.

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The guy, he's dead anyway, so.

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When the Phillips family decided to move to Jacksonville, Florida, this is where this all took place,

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they moved, of course, into the house across the street from the Clifton's.

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By all accounts, many people around the neighborhood before this happened said that Josh was quiet,

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friendly, and well-liked by the neighborhood.

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I mean, nothing out of the ordinary.

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So he quickly became good friends with Maddie because, of course, she's just a loving little

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girl, you know, wants to make everybody feel included.

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We're gonna go back to the day that she was last seen, November 3rd, 1998.

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Josh's father, Steve, was gone for the day.

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His mom was not home either.

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And he had a really strict rule.

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He didn't like him having friends over, but he had a really strict rule.

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When I'm not home and your mother's not home when you're home alone, no friends over at

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all.

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Of course.

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I mean, I probably would say that to my 14-year-old too.

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And after leaving her house, Maddie actually walked over to the Phillips home and knocked

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on the door because that's what you did in the 90s.

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Can Kenne come play?

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That's what my friends used to always say.

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She knocked on the door and Josh answered.

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And she asked if he wanted to go play baseball.

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And he was like, okay.

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Even though my dad said, no, I can't have people over, he's like, whatever, I'll just

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go outside and play baseball.

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Right, yeah.

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Because at least he's not breaking the rule that there's people inside the house.

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Yeah.

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So he's gonna go outside.

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But it kind of seems like his dad's like, don't hang out with people when you're alone.

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Don't leave.

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So he went against his father's rules.

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He said yes, and they proceeded to play baseball together.

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So at some point during this game, Josh accidentally, by his words, accidentally hit Maddie in the

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eye with the baseball by accident.

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I guess he was pitching and she was trying to hit whatever.

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Of course it's hurt.

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And so she starts crying and she starts screaming.

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Apparently it was hard enough that she was bleeding.

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Yeah.

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So I guess, yeah, I mean, it had to have been hard enough she was bleeding.

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So she starts screaming and crying.

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Maybe like, broke her nose or it's bleeding from the nose maybe.

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Yeah, maybe.

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So this freaked Josh out.

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He was like, oh shit, like, not only am I not supposed to be out here hanging out with

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people, now I've injured someone and my dad's definitely gonna find out.

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So he does what any logical 14 year old would do and he drags her inside the house and hits

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her with a baseball bat to get her to be quiet.

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Because he was maybe afraid she was gonna say something to somebody or...

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So during...okay, this was...trigger warning, this is bad.

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He dragged her inside the house later on when she is found because unfortunately she does

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not survive this.

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She was naked from the waist down besides her socks.

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Josh claims that her pants and underwear both fell off as he was dragging her in the house,

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which you could have just picked her up, I'm pretty sure.

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Like she's an eight year old.

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It was later determined there was no sexual assault that occurred, thank God.

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But when they looked at his records, he had looked up and watched porn before and after

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this whole attack.

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So I think personally, and I'm speculating that he intended to sexually assault her

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and he couldn't.

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He couldn't bring himself to do it or maybe she was already deceased and he didn't want

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to or whatever.

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That's terrible to say.

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I literally have goosebumps because that's so disgusting.

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That is gross.

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So yeah, he dragged her inside the house and this is when he claims that her pants came

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off.

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So he gets her inside, she's still screaming, of course, she's still crying upset.

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He hits her, I guess on the head or in the face with his baseball bat in an attempt to

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get her to be quiet.

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Of course this does not work, so he is then hitting her multiple times.

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There was not a clear number, some sources said one, some sources said a couple times.

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Either way, she was not that conscious.

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She did not cry or scream anymore.

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So then the next thing that he does is to put her, he thinks, I guess she's dead at

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this point, I'm not sure if he knows, he had a water bed and so he removed the water bed

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mattress and put her in there and then covered her back up with the mattress or the water

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bed.

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So put her body in between essentially what would be like the, I don't think that water

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beds have a box spring, but like the frame, like the platform of the bed.

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And water beds, I mean you've been on one, they're really fluid, so it wouldn't really

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be that obvious that there was something underneath there because it would kind of conform around.

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So anyways, and of course he's thinking this whole time like, oh shit, not only did I injure

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this little girl, now she's in my house and my dad definitely doesn't want that.

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So what am I going to do?

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Like I'm going to have to shut her up somehow because if he comes home and she's screaming,

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you know, and so then he, not to say this is logical thinking, but I'm assuming this

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is how he was thinking.

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And then he put her under the bed.

246
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,440
He actually, his father actually just comes home like shortly after this.

247
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,160
He actually goes downstairs and has like a full on conversation with his dad, just like

248
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:57,960
nothing happened.

249
00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:02,680
Surprisingly I don't know if the dad noticed or he probably has blood on him, like from

250
00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:03,680
something.

251
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,200
Maybe, I mean he's in his own house, he could probably wash up the change.

252
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:08,200
That's true.

253
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,280
Um, anyways, so they had this conversation, seemingly normal conversation, well then Josh

254
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:18,880
went back up to his room and noticed that Maddie was groaning and grunting.

255
00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:19,880
She was alive.

256
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:20,880
Oh my god.

257
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,560
Um, so this is really bad.

258
00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:29,560
He heard this and obviously realized she was still alive, so he removed the mattress.

259
00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:35,240
He then cut her throat with a kitchen knife and stabbed her seven times in the chest.

260
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,320
I want to like cry right now, it's so sad.

261
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,600
Later on he's like, I don't know what I was doing this and that and the other.

262
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,020
Why do you have a kitchen knife in your room?

263
00:11:43,020 --> 00:11:45,920
You had a conversation with your dad in the kitchen.

264
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,440
So he just swiped this thing on the way back up to his room?

265
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,080
I thought you thought she was dead already.

266
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,520
You know, what is the, that's planned.

267
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,920
Right, yeah, it's definitely planned.

268
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:04,200
But like you said, if he's 14 and he has the mind of an eight year old, I mean I know,

269
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:10,480
I mean we have a niece that's nine, you know, I mean, and she tells white lies and fibs,

270
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:16,360
you know, to get out of trouble and maybe that's not unlike what he's doing.

271
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,040
He thinks that no one is going to know.

272
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,280
He thinks that it can't be figured out.

273
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:28,320
And maybe that's where his, the impulse or the reaction kind of is disjointed from what's

274
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,680
actually transpiring.

275
00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:30,680
Yeah.

276
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:35,160
It made sense to him to hit her because she's crying, you know, and that's-

277
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,280
Yeah, I mean, I completely understand where you're coming from.

278
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:43,960
However, it becomes very clear later on, especially in his statements, he never was in a position

279
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:45,960
where he didn't know right from wrong.

280
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,760
And it's obviously very wrong to not, I can see maybe the baseball bat thing, like, oh

281
00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,160
my god, like I got to do something like panic mode.

282
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,880
But then after the fact, you're having a conversation with your dad and then you go back up to finish

283
00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,160
the job, that sounds bad, but for lack of a better term.

284
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,320
That's where it gets me because I'm like-

285
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:03,320
Yeah.

286
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,720
And the sort of thing that's disconnected from what- clearly he thinks that if he tells

287
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,680
that fabrication that he doesn't think that he's going to get in trouble.

288
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:15,200
He doesn't realize how easily it can be found out that, no, somewhere along the line you

289
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,880
grabbed a kitchen knife knowing what you were going to do.

290
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:18,880
Yeah, exactly.

291
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,360
And also, again, here, playing devil's advocate here, if he was just afraid that her noises

292
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,600
were going to wake them up, sorry, this sounds really bad.

293
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,400
Why wouldn't you just like put a pillow or like something quiet stabbing someone and

294
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,920
slitting their throat when they're literally looking at you is very, very brutal.

295
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:35,920
Yeah, that's brutal.

296
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:36,920
It's personal.

297
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:37,920
Exactly.

298
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:38,920
Yeah.

299
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:39,920
So that's where it kind of gets-

300
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,240
There's some type of a weird gratification from that.

301
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:43,240
Literally.

302
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,240
Yeah.

303
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,240
And then the fact that he watched porn after this.

304
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:46,240
Oh yeah.

305
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,400
That's- oh, I actually just got chills.

306
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,120
So unfortunately Maddie ultimately died from those wounds.

307
00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,680
Now the same day when she has not returned home by 5pm, of course her parents start to

308
00:13:57,680 --> 00:13:58,680
get worried.

309
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:01,680
There's obviously cases where people don't come home and they're like, oh, they just

310
00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,320
ran away in an eight year old, they were unlikely.

311
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:05,840
And at this point, they called the police.

312
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,120
They were like, we're not wasting any time.

313
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,520
She said she would be home by dinner.

314
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:09,520
She's not here.

315
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:10,520
That's not like her.

316
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:11,520
Like I know my child.

317
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,160
Yeah, she seems like a very responsible girl.

318
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,680
Yeah, exactly.

319
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:20,920
So upon learning that Maddie was indeed missing, law enforcement went ahead and opened a case.

320
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:25,240
It was reported that cops, reporters, and hundreds of people around the community came

321
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:26,760
in the search for Maddie.

322
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:27,760
Wow.

323
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:33,320
This included Josh, who joined the search for Maddie for seven days.

324
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:34,720
Two.

325
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,720
Everything had fallen well where she was and what had happened to her.

326
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,320
She was still, he hadn't moved her.

327
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,320
Oh no.

328
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,320
Oh no.

329
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:42,320
She was still in his room.

330
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:49,920
He continued to sleep on that mattress for the next week with her underneath it.

331
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,920
And like, I can see her face right now.

332
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,440
It is bonkers.

333
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,560
That's haunting for sure.

334
00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:02,800
And from a scientific mind point, sounds gross, but there's decomp happening here.

335
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:03,800
Yeah.

336
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:09,160
And especially with that much blood loss, blood has a very specific smell.

337
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,120
But even when it's fresh, it's a very specific smell.

338
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:18,280
My son had a really extensive nosebleed once and the smell in the carpet was like, I mean,

339
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,120
I went to town with it with like bleach and everything and it still had this very distinct

340
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,120
smell.

341
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:25,120
Yeah.

342
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,120
And that's from a nosebleed.

343
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,680
I can't imagine, you know, a gallon's worth of blood.

344
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:31,680
Yeah.

345
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:32,680
I mean, I'm just so...

346
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:41,040
I can't even imagine what like your mind has to tell you yourself to like be able to...

347
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,080
Or what you have to think to like be able to sleep.

348
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,560
Literally knowing that there's a...

349
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,760
I mean, he's also 14.

350
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,080
What 14 year old parents doesn't go in their room?

351
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,080
Just wait.

352
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,680
Oh no.

353
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,040
So the search included everyone was scouring like the dumpsters and like the woods nearby

354
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:00,440
for like any evidence.

355
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,000
There was zero evidence in this case because of course all of it was under the bed.

356
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,000
Like there was no other evidence.

357
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,000
Yeah.

358
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,000
No one...

359
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,000
Exactly.

360
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,000
There was only one crime scene.

361
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,080
It's like there were multiple crime scenes.

362
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,080
Yeah.

363
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,080
Yeah.

364
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,200
So again, this has been a week later.

365
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,840
November 10th is now the date.

366
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:23,480
The Clifton's had just finished an interview with the reporter outside of their house because

367
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,560
there was a bunch of people there.

368
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,920
They had just finished an interview when Melissa Phillips, Josh's mom went into his room and

369
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,760
noticed a giant wet spot on the floor next to his bed.

370
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,440
Well, her first thought is, oh, the waterbed's leaking.

371
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,400
Like obviously it's a waterbed, right?

372
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:46,320
So she moved it to try to find the source and she was just hit with this like horrific

373
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,160
smell.

374
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:54,080
And of course what she saw, like I literally have full body goosebumps that I cannot even

375
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,000
fathom finding something like that.

376
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,560
Melissa's a bad bitch because the first thing that she did was run straight across the street

377
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,600
to the police that were right there talking to the Clifton's and told them exactly what

378
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:07,600
she saw and found.

379
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:08,600
Holy shit.

380
00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,800
Oh, I literally am cold right now.

381
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,720
While they're in a news interview?

382
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,280
They had just finished recording an interview.

383
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,160
And so she ran across the street, she told the police, well, Josh wasn't home.

384
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,440
He was at school at the time.

385
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:27,960
So the police fucking went to the school and surrounded its ass and pulled him out of class

386
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,280
to arrest him for this murder.

387
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,760
How crazy would have been to be like a spectator to that?

388
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:35,760
Like I'm 14.

389
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,760
Just waiting your own business in high school.

390
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,760
Literally.

391
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:39,760
No, he was in middle school at this time.

392
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:41,760
Middle school, yeah, I think he was 14.

393
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:42,760
Yeah.

394
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,240
Oh, that's so weird.

395
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:50,400
So before this, thank God, of course, that's a terrible tragic thing that happened, but

396
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,080
Melissa was able to find this at the just the right time because they were actually

397
00:17:55,080 --> 00:18:00,200
honing in on a different neighbor than they thought had something to do with her disappearance.

398
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,360
And the only reason that they thought that he was, he could be a person of interest was

399
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,960
that he actually failed two lie detector tests when it came to questions about his history

400
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,880
of sexual battery.

401
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,000
So it didn't include what those questions were.

402
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,480
And I don't not going to include his name.

403
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:15,480
Yeah, because he contained in this case.

404
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:16,480
Because it doesn't matter.

405
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:17,480
Yeah.

406
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,040
Either way, of course, after that, Josh was their top suspect and this guy was like a

407
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,640
I mean, I would say like, you know, this guy that might have taken the fall for it, but

408
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,920
eventually Josh was going to be found out.

409
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,200
I mean, how do you cover like there's nothing like that up?

410
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,040
There's no way that would have literally made the entire house smell like a couple days.

411
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,160
Yeah, yeah, there's no way.

412
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:40,360
So when Maddie's body was found, like I said earlier, she was unclothed from the waist

413
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,320
down with the exception of her socks.

414
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,480
With this discovery, that's when police went to the school.

415
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,920
So they figured out what was happening, they saw, you know, Maddie, then they proceeded

416
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:51,920
to go to the school.

417
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,520
They didn't just immediately go on, you know, Melissa's a word.

418
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:55,520
Yes.

419
00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,440
So they brought him in for questioning and within two hours he gave them a full confession.

420
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,080
So it was like pretty cut and dry.

421
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:04,080
Yeah.

422
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:09,000
When he was arrested, the parents, this is so sad, the parents of the children at the

423
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,520
school that Maddie attended all went to go pick up their kids because they found out what

424
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,280
happened and there was literally witnesses that saw these children like sobbing.

425
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,840
Like with their parents, like trying to console them because they pulled them out of school

426
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,400
early because they found this out, of course, in the middle of the day.

427
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,280
Oh, it's just so awful.

428
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:30,280
Oh, and a few years later, Josh was actually noted as saying, even though he made no conscious

429
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,480
effort to, he kind of ignored what had happened.

430
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,100
Like he just kind of tried to disassociate.

431
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:40,360
He said that during his childhood, when things got really bad, he would take himself out

432
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,040
of the situation and like pretend like it wasn't happening.

433
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,240
And so he said that he ultimately like did the same thing during this.

434
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,360
Yeah, and became a coping mechanism.

435
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,400
And that was his explanation on how he was able to sleep on the bed for that long.

436
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,960
So it's hard to ignore.

437
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:54,960
Yeah, the thing.

438
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:55,960
Right.

439
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,280
So we're going to go to the trial now.

440
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,280
So due to the severity of the crime, Josh was actually going to be tried as an adult.

441
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:07,200
His trial was actually moved to a different county because they moved it to Polk County

442
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,600
because the amount of media in Jacksonville was just so much.

443
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,920
They wanted to kind of have like a little bit of a secluded.

444
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,480
I mean, well, within his rights to have a non-biased jury.

445
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:17,480
Of course.

446
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:18,480
Yeah.

447
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,080
So he was actually convicted of first degree murder by the jury.

448
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,080
And on August 20th, 1999, he was sentenced to life without possibility of parole.

449
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:27,080
Shit.

450
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:28,080
At 14.

451
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:29,640
Well, 14 when he committed the crime.

452
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,200
Well, he was 15 at this time.

453
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,200
So it was like a year later.

454
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,720
He was not eligible for the death penalty because the minimum age for the death penalty

455
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,280
in Florida is 16, which is bonkers to me.

456
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,280
That's 16.

457
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,280
Still 16.

458
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:42,280
Looks so young.

459
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:43,280
Yeah.

460
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,800
Um, it's noted that Josh didn't stand much of a chance at his trial.

461
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,360
And this is very interesting to me.

462
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,320
The defense actually didn't call any witnesses on his behalf.

463
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,080
And witnesses would have had.

464
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,400
Maybe his parents, maybe to like advocate for him.

465
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,400
Yeah.

466
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,760
Or I guess like character witnesses.

467
00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,760
Yeah.

468
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:00,760
But get this.

469
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,200
Melissa, the mom later said that she did not agree with how his defense attorney, his

470
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,720
name was Richard D. Nichols, handled the case.

471
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:13,280
But apparently Steve, the dad told the attorney to do whatever he thought was best.

472
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,080
So the dad is still a piece of shit.

473
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,960
He's like, yeah, take it.

474
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,960
I don't care.

475
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:18,960
Yeah.

476
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,360
Pretty much prosecutor Bernie, Daila Rihonda.

477
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:24,100
She's now retired, but she was the prosecutor in this case.

478
00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:27,760
She said about the trial quote, this was a devastating murder that will forever be in

479
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,560
the memories of anyone in Jacksonville at the time.

480
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,840
Historically, it was one of the most horrific murders.

481
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,120
There is no doubt about that.

482
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,080
Because it, that's terrible.

483
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,880
And then her age alone makes that just heartbreaking.

484
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,200
I mean, it's heartbreaking when it happens to anyone.

485
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,200
Of course.

486
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:51,360
You know, it's terrifying, but so young and so ambitious and had a lot of different avenues

487
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,160
that her life could have gone, given the fact that she was so talented.

488
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,280
So this is still the prosecutor quote, everyone was talking about it.

489
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,560
When you've got a missing girl and this missing girl turns out to be dead, I don't think there

490
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,360
was anyone who didn't know about this or who wasn't praying for her or attempting to find

491
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:05,360
her.

492
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,160
Awful.

493
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,240
Now in the year 2000, so a couple of years later, Josh's father, Steve actually died

494
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,520
in a car accident just one year after the trial.

495
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,360
It seems like it was alcohol related.

496
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:17,360
Yeah.

497
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,680
Maddie's parents also went through a divorce, unfortunately, probably due to stress of this

498
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:22,680
whole situation.

499
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:23,680
Worse.

500
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,520
And in 2002, an appeals court actually held up the same conviction.

501
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,240
So a couple of years later, they're like, nope, you're still life in prison without

502
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:30,240
possibly.

503
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,240
You're still a writer.

504
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,240
Yeah.

505
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,640
So in 2006, when Melissa, Josh's mom began seeking a new trial, believing that his age

506
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,720
at the time of the murder should have been taken into consideration.

507
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,000
At the same time, two officials that were involved in his sentencing said that they

508
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,360
were also having second thoughts about the conviction, which if it was my child and the

509
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:52,080
crime was that graphic, I'd probably be the same thing that Melissa's doing.

510
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:57,040
Like my son was 14, you know, you have to at least consider that in the trial instead

511
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,440
of just the crime itself, which is unfortunate, but people do.

512
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,040
So in 2005, new hearing dates were actually set for Josh, with the goal being to have

513
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,280
just have the charges at least reduced to second degree murder so that the death penalty

514
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,200
would be off the table and parole was an option later.

515
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,360
They can't just take the death penalty off and say that it was first degree or disfers

516
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:17,760
degree because of the savage nature of the crime.

517
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,760
Well, they didn't.

518
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,480
They didn't send it to death.

519
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,320
It was just, I guess it was still up in the air.

520
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,120
Maybe once he tried 16, maybe they were like, let's redo a retrial and maybe they could

521
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:27,120
do it then.

522
00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:29,600
So to reduce his license because of his age.

523
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:30,600
Pretty much.

524
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:31,600
Yeah.

525
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,800
So and then if they did get, if they were successful in getting second degree, then he might have

526
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,000
the possibility of parole after like 40 years or something.

527
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,440
So this is 2008 now.

528
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,440
Josh was asked to write an apology letter to the Clifton family, but he declined.

529
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,960
And when asked why, he said that he wanted to apologize in person and he thought that

530
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,080
a letter wouldn't show his sincerity.

531
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,920
So he really does feel about about this.

532
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,760
I'm not saying anything, I don't feel bad for him.

533
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,560
You know, he did what he did, but it's clear that he is very broken up about this.

534
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:00,560
He's very merciful.

535
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,200
Um, however, Maddie's mom Sheila said that she did not want to see him in person even

536
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,200
for an apology.

537
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,200
She's like, sorry, but no.

538
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,200
Yeah, rotten hell.

539
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,960
Uh, I want to say like get fucked, but I'm trying not to say fuck so much because mom

540
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,080
said, can you say fuck way too much in the first episode?

541
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,960
People aren't going to want to listen to that.

542
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:20,960
Fuck.

543
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,960
Fuck.

544
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,840
I'm leaving that in there.

545
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:25,840
Fuck it.

546
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:33,320
I'll take that out.

547
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:39,440
The Supreme Court later made a ruling that stated this is like a new law that stated that

548
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,520
sentencing juveniles to a mandatory sentence of life without parole is unconstitutional.

549
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,920
So now they have to have a retrial or not a retrial but a resentencing because they

550
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:50,920
did something unconstitutional.

551
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,120
Now it wasn't then, but it is now.

552
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:59,720
So in 2017, they was a resentencing, but the judge still upheld Josh's life sentence because

553
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,120
he is now over the age of 16, obviously.

554
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:03,560
This is almost 20 years later.

555
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,560
Mm-hmm.

556
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,080
Uh, he actually had an appeal in 2020 but was also denied and he's actually still in

557
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,080
prison today.

558
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:11,680
He's 37 years old.

559
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,680
Still in prison.

560
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,200
He's literally been raised in prison as an adult.

561
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,800
I was going to say that's more than half of his life at this point.

562
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,120
During one of his hearings, uh, I think this is one of the resentencing hearings.

563
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:26,180
Hello, Clifton, Maddie's mom spoke out and she was noted as saying, quote, we were raising

564
00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:29,080
our girls, this literally gave me the heaves.

565
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,040
Quote, we were raising our girls in a Christian home where we prayed every day.

566
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,000
What we didn't know was that the devil himself had moved in right across the street, the same

567
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,160
devil that picked up his flashlight and proceeded to look for her knowing good and well where

568
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,880
she was the whole time.

569
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,800
Full bod, sheeves.

570
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,240
Seriously.

571
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,720
That was chills and heaves, if you didn't get that.

572
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,280
It sounded like I was talking about weed.

573
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,840
It was the GPs.

574
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,840
It was the Hebeys and the GPs.

575
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,840
Yeah, all of them.

576
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:00,840
I know.

577
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,920
Sheela also told the judge during his resentencing hearing, quote, the defendant now wants a

578
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,340
second chance to live a second life.

579
00:26:07,340 --> 00:26:10,920
What does Maddie get to appeal her death sentence to?

580
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:11,920
Damn!

581
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,920
Bow-ow-ow!

582
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,920
Mike, drop, Sheela.

583
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:15,920
That's crazy.

584
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,920
What a bad bitch.

585
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,840
She also was quoted as saying, quote, should he ever get released from prison, I pray that

586
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,360
I will no longer be on this earth.

587
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:24,360
Yeah.

588
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:25,360
Damn, this girl's got it all.

589
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:26,360
I know.

590
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:27,360
She's just a mom.

591
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,360
That's a mom shit.

592
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,000
Now, I mentioned earlier that Maddie had an older sister, Jesse.

593
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,400
So I want to talk about her for a little bit because she had kind of a rough go of it afterwards,

594
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,000
of course, like anybody would.

595
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,240
Now, she got a chance to speak out as well at these trials and she was noted as saying,

596
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,880
quote, when I needed somebody to talk to, there was nobody.

597
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,080
Nobody understood me.

598
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,080
There are days when I go to the cemetery and I sit down in the grass because I don't have

599
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,200
anybody else to talk to, so I talk to her in the ground.

600
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,600
She was also noted when talking about her parents that, quote, everything stopped when

601
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,840
my parents divorced.

602
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,160
She mentioned that her dad shut down while her mom wanted to talk about it, so they had

603
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,440
two different ways of grieving and it really was not a good thing.

604
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,240
Sheela, the mom, moved out.

605
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,160
She moved in the same neighborhood but to a different house because she did not want

606
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,280
to be in that house across the street from the Phillips.

607
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,440
I don't blame her.

608
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,200
When talking about the house, Jesse said that her dad moved out but that she's still living

609
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,200
there and is in the process of buying it from him, actually.

610
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,000
She's going to buy the child at home.

611
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,200
She was quoted as saying, it's always been my home.

612
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,760
So the same house that they grew up in together.

613
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:37,800
Also, it's worth mentioning, just see and show how much of an amazing person Jesse is.

614
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:43,080
She was actually noted as like consoling and hugging Josh's mom at one of the trials because

615
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,960
she said in her own words that they both lost somebody in that.

616
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:53,320
Because not only did Maddie lose her life but Josh's mom lost his son as well because

617
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,320
she doesn't have contact with him even though it's not the same thing.

618
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,760
She understood that, which is like really...

619
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,240
Seems like these parents did a really good job raising their daughters.

620
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,240
Absolutely.

621
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:04,240
Yeah.

622
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,200
Especially like, Sheela's a bad bitch.

623
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,200
Right?

624
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,200
Hell yeah.

625
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,200
She birthed a bad ass bitch.

626
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,200
Seriously.

627
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,440
So back to the trial and stuff, I said that he did a number of like resendancing trials,

628
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,960
especially after that differentiation in the laws in 2017.

629
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,840
His case was actually one of 80 that were like making their way back to do a resendancing

630
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:28,000
because they were all involved in that younger than 16 life conviction.

631
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,080
So they were making their way back to the fourth judicial circuit after the Supreme

632
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,440
Court said that it was unlawful to do this and that and the other.

633
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,120
And the reasoning behind this is that they're backing up of why they don't want this to

634
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,160
happen is because they said that science shows that the brain is not fully developed

635
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:46,160
until the mid-20s.

636
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,600
Yeah, everyone knows that.

637
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,160
And their statement was that an underdeveloped brain can make a person irrational and impulsive.

638
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,000
Yeah, that's every teenager ever.

639
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,000
Of course.

640
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,480
So that's not, I'm sorry.

641
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,160
I was irrational and impulsive when I was 14 too.

642
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,800
That doesn't mean that I'm doing shit like this.

643
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,040
You didn't have a body under your mattress.

644
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:05,040
Seriously.

645
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,600
We're going to go back just a little bit when Josh was 33.

646
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,080
So this was four years ago.

647
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,560
We have a quote from him.

648
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:15,760
A quote, I had no clue what life meant, what death meant, nor the depths of suffering that

649
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,160
would follow one act.

650
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,920
I had no inkling of how long suffering could last.

651
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,040
I have lived long enough to understand what suffering really was.

652
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,160
I did something horrible and I'm so sorry.

653
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,720
I'm so sorry.

654
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,240
Even now after all these years, it is just so unfathomable that all of this could have

655
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,240
occurred.

656
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,760
It tears my mind to know that I stole such a precious life from you, from the world.

657
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,320
I wish I could take away your pain.

658
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,800
And it's like, I want that to sound genuine so bad, but then it's like, do you feel badly

659
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,960
for doing that or do you feel badly that you're stuck here in prison?

660
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:53,760
I think that there's a lot of weight to, and a lot that can be said about somebody that's

661
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:59,240
again growing up in a prison system where he's automatically exposed, and I'm sure

662
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,240
he didn't go to Juvie.

663
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,760
He went to prison at 14, 15, or 16 years old.

664
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,120
They try to make him as an adult, so yeah.

665
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:16,640
And so he's exposed to men who have made potential careers out of harming people, and to really

666
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:22,840
make a decision then and there, like, am I this kind of a person or am I not?

667
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,720
And I do kind of think that there's weight to what he said, that maybe he didn't realize

668
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,280
the magnitude of what that meant.

669
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,480
He just knew that he was in a pickle and tried to fix it.

670
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,840
Yeah, I agree with that.

671
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:44,040
I also, I kind of have the belief system, I mean of course there's a lot of exceptions

672
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,280
to this, but prison is not there for punishment, it's there for reform.

673
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,000
It's not meant to, I mean of course, again, some people, yes.

674
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,000
In a perfect world.

675
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,280
In a perfect world, it's for reform.

676
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,360
Yes, and unfortunately that doesn't happen all the time, but I don't believe that it

677
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,320
can't happen, you know, and especially we're talking about his age, he was so young, now

678
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,880
he's almost 40, like maybe there is, maybe he is a different person, you know, and there

679
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,680
was actually a couple people that have testified on his, not testified, but you know, advocated

680
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,720
for him saying that they don't believe that if he was released he would be a danger.

681
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,040
So I don't know.

682
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:22,760
A well-known psychologist from Chicago, his name is James Garbarino, testified during

683
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,880
this time at the retrial that he believes that Josh is truly remorseful.

684
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,140
He said that at 14 Josh suffered from the psychodynamics of his family, and he had a

685
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:36,080
father who was emotionally and verbally abusive with a mother who suffered from depression.

686
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,960
So I mean that's not easy.

687
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,400
It's not, like that's not an easy situation, you know, we've been fortunate not to grow

688
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,360
up in an environment like that, but I have lots of friends growing up that did, and there's

689
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,040
deal dealing with ramifications of what happened when they were kids, and I don't think that

690
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,960
parents, much like Josh didn't recognize in the moment that he was doing, he probably

691
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,400
knew he was doing something wrong, but he didn't realize the magnitude of it, I think

692
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,720
that's a perfect parent, no there's no perfect parent, I'm not a perfect parent, there's

693
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,920
probably things that I'm doing today that I will regret doing, you know, when my son

694
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,920
is older.

695
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,920
There's no such thing as a perfect parent, and I do think that even bad parents, if

696
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:21,400
you want to call them bad parents, don't realize that they're raising someone to be an adult

697
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,400
one.

698
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,400
Yeah.

699
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,920
And I think it's like a kind of a hard thing to swallow.

700
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:31,000
Just a couple more things, the psychologist described Josh as a teenager who was socially

701
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,400
isolated and estranged, he was quoted as saying he didn't feel connected to positive

702
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:41,760
experiences as an average teenager, he had feelings of hopelessness to despair, possibly

703
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,840
suicide which is not surprising given the psychologically abusive treatment by his father.

704
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,960
Before the resintencing hearing, actually Josh said that he would like a second chance,

705
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,040
but he was unsure if he deserved one, and he was quoted as saying, quote, maybe I deserved

706
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,880
to die in prison.

707
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,120
This resintencing remained the same with life, but in 2023 he'll be eligible for another

708
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,120
appeal or resintencing.

709
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,320
I don't remember which one it was.

710
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,280
I do find that interesting that quite a few people, and we have, I think we talked about

711
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:15,920
that with Wong's case, the one that we did, that people that tend to feel suicidal can

712
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:16,920
turn homicidal.

713
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,800
And I think that's pretty interesting, it's like they feel this pain and they don't know

714
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,720
what to do with it.

715
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:28,880
They mostly want to take it out on themselves, but maybe they're scared to, to do it to someone

716
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:29,880
else.

717
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:36,040
Now, Josh didn't have any diagnosed mental illness, and I don't want this to be a, well

718
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,440
they're doing a podcast about mental illness and then they're doing all these cases where

719
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,280
they're not mentally ill, because again, everybody's story deserves to be told.

720
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:49,320
And I actually think it's kind of fun and interesting to try to, of course I don't have

721
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,480
the credentials, I'm not a scientist, I'm a psychiatrist, but to try to maybe, from

722
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,120
my viewpoint of it, maybe determine or, you know, speculate about what he could have been

723
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,640
diagnosed with, how he got the proper treatment.

724
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,280
So I'm going to talk about that for just a second.

725
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,560
This is just me doing my own research.

726
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,840
This isn't, this isn't hold, holds no way, it's just my speculation.

727
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,760
So if I could diagnose him with something, I would probably relate it most closely to

728
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,480
depersonalization, derealization disorder.

729
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,880
Now this involves an ongoing or episodic sense of detachment or being outside yourself,

730
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,800
which is exactly what we've seen, observing your actions, feelings, thoughts, and self

731
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,080
from a distance as though you're watching a movie.

732
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,760
That's the depersonalization.

733
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,440
Other people and things around people that have this disorder may feel detached or foggy

734
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:42,200
or even dreamlike, and time may be slowed down or sped up and the world may seem unreal.

735
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,600
That's the derealization part.

736
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,720
People experience depersonalization, derealization, or both and symptoms that can be profoundly

737
00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:54,680
distressing, can only last a few moments or can come and go over many years.

738
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,720
So that to me seems pretty similar to what he was explaining when he said that he kind

739
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:05,960
of ignored it, he didn't think about it, it went away, you know, like not realizing what's

740
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:06,960
happening.

741
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,120
Yeah, I, for sure when he was talking about, it's, it's in the evidence.

742
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,480
The evidence is that he thought that he could hit her that, and then once, you know, he

743
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,280
had battered her that he could cover it up under his mattress at 14.

744
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,920
I don't think that's the mind of somebody who really thought any of it out.

745
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,640
I really do think it was, now, you know, you talk about the knife and things like that,

746
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,600
that that scenario might have been different, but he was already way deep, you know.

747
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,240
But it's not like he tried to, he could have just dragged her to a field outside.

748
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:40,560
He didn't have to drag her inside.

749
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,560
Of course.

750
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,640
I think that in his mind he was like, okay, next one step at a time.

751
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:47,640
It's just in the moment.

752
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,560
It's not, and so that's what I'm saying is that that's definitely the mind of, even

753
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,040
in my opinion, not the mind of a mature 14 year old.

754
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,520
It does sound like a child.

755
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,960
It sounds like somebody, you know, you wet your pants and you're trying to hide it real

756
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:01,960
quick.

757
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:02,960
Yeah, stuff it up your bed.

758
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,240
Stuff it up your pants, stuff it up your bed.

759
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:06,240
Yeah.

760
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,400
No, well it does, it actually does, you know, go without saying, of course, that the crime

761
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,640
was very brutal.

762
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,520
However, I don't believe that he should have been charged with first degree murder because

763
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,480
first degree murder, the biggest, biggest thing about it is premeditation.

764
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,400
And I don't believe that he was like, okay, when Maddie comes over, I'm going to accidentally

765
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,720
hit her with the ball and then I'm going to, you know, I think it was second degree because

766
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:28,720
that's after the fact you're not planning it.

767
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,920
However, what holds the most weight is that kitchen knife.

768
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,960
You don't just have a kitchen knife in your room.

769
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:34,960
That thing is huge.

770
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:35,960
You don't need that in your room.

771
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:41,440
It's like a tiny knife, maybe, that is what like really resonates with me is that like

772
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,360
I don't believe that he intended to hurt her at all in the beginning.

773
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,800
However, what ultimately killed her was the stabbing and the slitting over throat with

774
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,840
that knife that after the fact she grabbed.

775
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:53,840
Yeah.

776
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,840
This is also, you know, again, when you talk about the abuse that the father, you know,

777
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,120
that he was subject to his father's abuse, we don't know what kind of a household they

778
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,120
had.

779
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,840
We don't know, again, if he's talking about the fact that he felt suicidal, he might have

780
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,840
had knives in his room.

781
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,120
That is a very good point.

782
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,920
Or maybe he was, maybe he had it in his room to defend himself from his dad.

783
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,800
Maybe he was planning on, you know, for a guy with his dad.

784
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:17,800
Yeah.

785
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:18,800
Huh.

786
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,800
I didn't even think about that.

787
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:20,800
That's a good point.

788
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:21,800
Yeah.

789
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:22,800
Wow.

790
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:23,800
Because now when I'm imagining this kid's like room, I'm thinking there's like probably

791
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,200
like, it's old to go boxes and like, you know, like laundry that hasn't been done.

792
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,400
And it probably smells like a foot anyways and like, you know, because it's probably, I

793
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,400
mean, just, you know.

794
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:34,400
All right.

795
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,680
Well, thank you for being here today.

796
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,400
We had kind of a little bit of trouble getting the microphone situation set up.

797
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,520
So you haven't heard any of this as it's been going on.

798
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,520
You've just been talking.

799
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:45,520
So you'll have to listen back.

800
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,520
What's kind of funny is I don't think we tested it.

801
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,920
So we'll just have to see.

802
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,720
Oh, no, I can hear you perfectly clear.

803
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:51,720
Yeah.

804
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:55,720
Anyways, well, we're going to come back very shortly.

805
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:58,080
I think we're actually going to have two episodes coming out this week, or we're going

806
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,080
to have this one.

807
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,200
And then right afterwards, we're going to have another one.

808
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,680
In the meantime, you can follow us on Instagram.

809
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,160
We are at diagnosing a killer.

810
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,480
You can also tweet at us at killer diagnosis.

811
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,400
And I've said this every episode, but I will have an email set up for you guys to email

812
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,360
us and give us any feedback, extra comments.

813
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,520
Like we always say, if we left anything out, if any of our information was incorrect, please

814
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,520
tell us.

815
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,080
We like to be accurate on the things that we're putting out.

816
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,400
Of course, we put a lot of our speculation in there as well, but anything that or if

817
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,760
you want to add something or if you have a case of your own, maybe it's like a hometown

818
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:38,120
case you want us to cover, please let us know and we'll definitely do our best to shuffle

819
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:39,480
through those.

820
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,480
All of the ones that are going to be coming in from all five of you.

821
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,880
I think it's like six or seven now.

822
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,520
Oh, well, we did find a few people in the last week.

823
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,800
Maybe I should put a disguise on when I go outside.

824
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,280
We're going to get the Roxy over here.

825
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,040
I know, we need to get some new sunglasses.

826
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,320
Anyways, thank you so much, we hope you keep listening to us and maybe we'll have Koala

827
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,200
on again because you all seem to really like her.

828
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:02,200
I like being here.

829
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:03,200
She's just smiling.

830
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,200
I like being here.

831
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:05,200
It's fun.

832
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,760
All right, until next time.

833
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:09,760
Love you.

834
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:10,760
Bye.

835
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:11,760
Love you.

836
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:30,200
They affect your lives, Versailles leads the way, you need actually be committed to

837
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,200
You