Hello! Hello! I'm Koelle. I'm Kenna. Welcome to the first episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
My stomach is so full of fur. Oh my god, I'm jealous. Just so much soup. I'm so jealous. I had no
Miller and it actually didn't even snack today. I was a little disappointed. I dropped my tea all over the floor. You did!
Before you even came inside, you came in with an empty cup. It's crying. RIP to my sweet tea. Well, I didn't need it anyways.
Did you end up taking that green tea? No, I drank Kasey's tea because he loves me. Oh, that's sweet.
I always have to have tea somewhere, like if it's urban latte or green tea or something. Yeah.
We are super excited to introduce our new podcast. We have been thinking about this concept for quite a while and both of us are very interested in true crime and we are both big advocates for the mental health community and mental health awareness.
I think that we decided we wanted to put those two together and create this little child that was. True crime has been blowing up in this way.
More so when you talk about the mental health awareness aspect of some of these cases. I'm really excited to get both of those out there.
It's going to be thrilling and entertaining and thought-provoking. I'm really excited.
Yeah, and on top of thrilling, entertaining, thought-provoking, those things that you do get with true crime, it'll also be educational and it'll help bring awareness and hopefully you will learn something throughout this process.
Not only just about true crime, but about mental health and mental illness.
I think one of my big goals personally is to drive that sense of compassion into people when you do think about mental health and how it does. It can affect people to the point of committing crimes and it's very unfortunate.
We're not by any way saying that people that are mentally ill will commit crimes, but it does correlate. It does have some sort of prevalence in the cases that we're going to talk about.
It's good to be aware of those things. Just in a general standpoint with mental health, if you know somebody that's struggling, maybe you'll be able to help you understand that more and be able to be a little bit more compassionate towards them.
Right. And I think that's a theme that we'll end up seeing is that it's either people that have gone undiagnosed or people that have gone without treatment.
Or even people that didn't find any of that compassion growing up or maybe in a relationship that a lot of these people were ignored or shoved to the side or didn't have that availability or openness with another person enough to be able to express themselves and then get the help that they needed.
Absolutely. And we definitely want to hear from you guys. I know our plan is to get some sort of line of communication open, so we're eventually going to have an email set up and social media as well as maybe a couple of other ways to get in contact with us.
For sure.
Well, I do have my very first case and I'm really excited to share it with you. This is actually a local case. So this happened just north of Dallas, Texas.
Okay.
So we're from South Texas because in case anybody's listening that doesn't know us, like all two of you that are listening to this.
So yeah, we're going to be talking about Andre Thomas today.
Okay.
So Andre Thomas was born on March 17, 1983 to Rochelle and Danny Thomas. He was the fourth of six boys, raised mostly by their mother in Sherman, Texas. So that's a little bit north of Dallas.
What their dad do.
So I'll get into them. They were together, I think until Andre was about three.
Okay.
They were kind of like back and forth and then he just kind of like took off eventually and I'll explain why.
Okay.
So Rochelle, the mother was actually an alcoholic that also suffered from depression. She had actually experienced sexual abuse early on in her life. So it's really unfortunate.
Yeah, that's traumatic. I mean, you definitely carry that with you for the rest of your life.
I mean, that explains almost the alcoholism and depression to me. You know, she's actually not the only person in the family to experience mental illness on her kind of generation wise.
There were other family members that also suffered from things such as depression, substance abuse and violence. Actually, 10 years before Andre was even born, his uncle was shot and killed by his own father-in-law.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
They also say that mental disorders or mental illness can also be, it's a trait that you can pass down.
Yeah.
Especially throughout a family.
Yeah.
So clearly the family dynamic here is like, there are probably some issues going on that not a lot of people are taken care of.
Of course.
And we've talked about this off camera or off mic about how you can be predisposed to genetic mental illnesses without even, for something that happened in generations before you that you have zero control over.
Right.
And something like an environmental trauma can actually cause that to present itself.
So just a quick note about the dad, because we were talking about Danny, he was actually questioned like way later on during the trial about Andre's childhood growing up.
So by all accounts, like I said, the dad wasn't around much, but in court when he was questioned, he was adamant that he was quote in that house all the time.
Ew.
Yeah.
So he also included the fact that Rochelle would leave for three months at a time frequently.
He was trying to, I guess, insert like, oh look how much of a great daddy and we had such a great relationship.
Like he would say like, oh, Andre was the baby.
We called them like sweet toonie, like tuna.
And you know, oh, he was so sweet.
You know, that's why he had that nickname kind of like, I guess like pleading his case about how he was like this great, like,
involved dad.
But he just wasn't there.
Yeah.
So according to Danny in 1986, Rochelle came back for good.
And then the two of them separated when he quote willingly left.
So I willingly left.
So he was saying that she was convinced my will.
Right.
He was saying that she was leaving for months at a time.
And then all of a sudden she's back and he's like, oh, she's back for good.
Bye.
Like, how do you know she's back for good?
Oh, now that she was frequently leaving.
Now that there's at least one parent.
It's impossible to have two, right?
You're only allowed one at a time.
Now when he left, he left for Denison, Denison, Texas.
So that's 75 miles north of Dallas.
So just a little bit farther north.
He wasn't too far away.
Yeah.
But he didn't come back.
So we certainly didn't come back.
Yeah.
And like I said, Andre was about three years old at this time.
So when asked why he left, Danny said that he just couldn't stand to be in the house with Rochelle at the same time.
So get an apartment down the street.
Why you got to move away?
Right.
And have like a civil separation where you can have like joint custody or something.
Joint custody.
Yeah.
Both being exposed to the kids.
Right.
So he said that he knew that when she had come back for good, he had decided it best for him to leave them with their mom for the majority of the time.
But she's not there all the time.
So how is that best for the kids?
I don't.
If he's such a phenomenal dad, why isn't the kids being with him the best thing?
Well, so get this.
He also mentions that in the years following, the boys moved back and forth from Denison to Sherman occasionally.
Like they would go up and visit their dad. I guess they took a bus or something and stay with him for like a certain amount of time.
They would actually go to school half time in both places.
What?
Right?
It's like a terrible time.
And this is in the 80s.
Yes.
That's like, come on.
Yeah.
So he said that they would.
This isn't the 1940s or 50s where it's like an obligation.
Right.
Just get over it.
If you really think that like what's best for your child is for the children to be with the mom, why make them shuttle back and forth?
Well, that's the thing.
I don't think he made them do anything.
I think that they took it upon themselves to go because it was such a shitty home life with their mom.
So the fact that he up and left these boys knowing that they were going to have a shitty household with their mom and he didn't give a fuck, you know, like.
So they went to go escape or like they missed their dad.
Yes.
He wasn't like picking them up and bringing them back and forth.
They did say, yeah, maybe a bus or something like that.
So he said that they would ride bikes, play in the creeks.
He said that sometimes they would even skip school to go to the creek.
So they pretty much spent half the time with him and half their time with their mom.
Yeah.
Well, another thing that dad had mentioned during the trial about Andre, he said that this is actually kind of cute.
Again, pleading his case about how much he has a great relationship with their BFF.
He said they used to call him mad scientist because he was always making stuff.
Aw.
He was really interested in engineering, like he would actually like take like toy cars apart or whatever and like put them back together.
Like things like that.
Like really cool little hobbies, right?
Wicked smart kid.
Wicked smart.
Another part of the trial later on that was mentioned, the prosecutor actually asked Danny if he thought Andre was quote the R word.
He didn't say it like that, but I don't want to say it.
And Danny said no.
He had a mental deficiency.
Yeah.
He said he seemed, he was very adamant about this response and he said that no, like he was a very bright child, you know, there's no evidence of that.
Yeah.
And lastly, Danny also mentioned while being questioned that he never had to spank Andre.
I thought this was interesting to add because physical abuse as a child, no matter how small, is can cause a lot of trauma growing up.
Yeah.
And a lot of your psyche kind of to become skewed.
Of course.
Then that's what you think that people that love you do to you, like or when you love someone, that's what you do to someone else.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, there is evidence that suggests that kids that are abused or even like emotionally degraded can grow up thinking that violence is a way of life like that.
And then they in turn, you know, bring that into their, you know, next relationship.
Yeah, those young babies become adults.
So yeah.
So I thought it was important to mention that according to Danny, this did not happen in Andre's childhood.
That he was never spanked or anything.
He was never spanked.
Yeah, he didn't, they didn't have any violence or, you know, abuse, physical abuse.
Okay, Danny.
Even though there was definitely a neglect that's abuse in and itself.
So I know that was definitely neglect.
I think that my facial and body expression when I said that was funnier than what I actually said.
You look like you were leaning up against a fence post.
Hey, you want a cigarette?
One for you.
They're good for you.
Yeah, like you have rolled cuffs on your jeans.
Sevely abused.
Yeah, you're neglected.
Sevely abused.
I love that.
Shout out, Boston.
And now on the mother's side, like I said, the house was in very rough shape.
They were being raised in part time.
Like I told you, they were going back and forth.
The house had no running water, no heat, no electricity.
At his mom's?
Yes.
But yeah, it was the better place to be.
Best that they stayed in.
You Danny, oh, scoundrel.
Now, because this was the case, the boys would spend the majority of their downtime at the Harmony Baptist Church down the street rather than at home.
They began to be noticed, of course, as frequent fliers in the church.
And many people around town seem to know about their living situation.
So they kind of just let it slide.
Whatever.
I mean, a church is there to help you, right?
Yeah, of course.
And I mean, of course, of course, of course, of course.
I can see, especially from the perspective of the church, like, well, at least they're in here.
They're not out there getting in trouble, you know, running the streets or whatever.
I probably would have gone a little bit farther and, you know, maybe called like CPS or something.
A parent.
Yeah.
One of the parents.
Yeah.
And we'll see that this becomes a theme this entire case, that there are so many people that had so many opportunities to help Andre.
And they just turned a blind eye and they didn't.
They didn't.
And it caused him to go down this horrible path.
Now, despite all these hardships that Andre is facing as a child, you know, with his father not living in the same city as mom being a transient drug user alcoholic,
probably not paying much attention to them.
Andre actually did really well in school for the first few years.
His Sunday school teacher even said that he would raise his hand and answer questions before she could finish asking them.
Oh, love that.
I know, isn't that sweet?
It's a Tracy flick.
Yeah.
So it was, by all accounts, seemed that he had like a very good intuition into context clues, like paying attention, really being on top of things when it came to him.
Well, you know, that makes a little bit more sense too, because, and I have seen that in a few other just like true crime things that I've seen and stuff.
Yeah.
That some people when they have like a really bad home life, they throw themselves into academics or they throw themselves into sports.
Yeah.
Because that's where they, yeah, and it's like a way to spend all of their time.
Yeah.
They also don't have to go home.
So yeah, they, for sure, it gives them something to focus on.
So by all accounts, other family members of Andres would say that he enjoyed sketching future futuristic cars.
He wanted to design cars one day and he would constantly talk about it.
That's so cute.
Isn't that so sweet?
On top of all of this, he was even in the GT program at school.
Wow.
So in Texas, that's gifted and talented.
I'm not sure if it's different other places or if it's called something else, but I just wanted to mention that.
I was in the GT program in school, just to say that.
In like elementary school, when it didn't matter.
She was like, for one year.
There's also a quote mentioned from his sister-in-law, Rachel Callis, that said, quote,
we definitely saw him doing great things, but he definitely didn't go down that road.
So that was like a quote later on.
This makes me, this is already breaking my heart.
It's a really sad case.
It's really unfortunate.
So around 1990 to 1991, Andre actually attended three different schools in two different states.
So in 1990, 1991, so he was like seven or eight years old.
Yeah.
And so I wasn't able to find the other state of my research, but I'm assuming it's Oklahoma, just because it's like right there.
Yeah.
But it was pretty clear that he attended one school in Sherman, Texas, where Rochelle lived, one in Denison, Texas, where his dad lived.
And I'm not sure about the third one.
Yeah.
Either way, three different schools in two different states within a year, like that can definitely take a toll on your social, you know, personality.
Right.
Just your psyche.
Yeah, because you don't get a chance to connect with anybody.
Yeah, exactly.
So he definitely had it had it rough socially during those years.
Pears are doing a great job.
Right.
Yeah.
A plus.
So we're going to fast forward to when Andre was about 10 years old.
This is where it's most noted that his behavior started to change significantly.
So according to some of his classmates, he told them that he heard quote, angels and demons arguing in his head.
So that sounds like schizophrenia spectrum to me.
Yeah, especially at 10.
Yes.
And 10 is a very early age to start showing signs of schizophrenia.
Well, is it though, because I thought that schizophrenia was anywhere from like eight to 12.
No, schizophrenia, because it doesn't appear at all in children, like babies.
Yeah, I don't think that.
And adolescents.
I don't think that schizophrenia spectrum shows itself until you're late teens.
Oh, really?
If I'm not mistaken.
So he also claimed that he was Raiden.
This is a Mortal Kombat character that was based on the Japanese deity, Ragen.
And he was depicted as the God of Thunder who possesses control over lightning.
Oh, like Odin.
Yes, that's cool.
But like this alone is not a red flag, obviously.
Yeah.
Because children have very magical minds.
Well, it's Mortal Kombat.
Yeah, I know.
So the fact that he's Raiden's awesome.
Yeah.
And he thinks that this character is, he's this character.
That's not the issue.
That's, you know, that's fine.
Yeah.
But the fact that he said that he's hearing the angels and demons, that's a little bit
abnormal for a children's imagination to kind of make up.
Especially if you're hearings, it's auditory.
And at 10, because usually like imaginary friends pop up.
I mean, you know, I have a son who's in his younger years.
Yeah.
His imaginary friends started popping up like probably three, four.
Yeah.
When they start realizing that there's other kids that are their age and they kind of
want a sibling.
It's usually around that age.
10, I feel like is pretty late to be saying that you have like, not that he's saying he
has imaginary friends.
Yeah.
But an adult might perceive them to be imaginary friends, right?
So I feel like that's a little old.
Yeah.
And actually, this also points to schizophrenia spectrum to me because auditory delusions or
hallucinations is actually the most common symptom of schizophrenia.
Yeah, I believe that.
Yeah.
This is also the time in his childhood when he started smoking weed.
At 10?
At 10 years old.
He started smoking weed, which is absolutely awful that he has access to it.
Let alone smoking it.
When he's smoking the devil's lettuce.
No wonder he's, what are you seeing angels and demons?
Your brain is so underdeveloped at that point that it can be really detrimental to the
development of your brain and your mental health.
Well, later on it was actually thought to be a way to try to control the voices in his
head.
So they thought that he was trying to self medicate with the weed.
At the age of 11, he was actually arrested for the very first time.
For having weed?
No.
Oh.
He was charged with criminal mischief for an apartment complex pool escapade, which
sounds very dramatic.
Tell me about this scenario.
He was literally with some buddies and they broke into an apartment complex pool and got
like, the cops came, I guess, because they didn't live there.
They weren't allowed to be there.
Then there's.
And they probably just ran away.
And they were like, apartment complex pool escapade.
An escapade.
Like it's this giant like machines bond.
Was that in the newsletter for the apartment complex?
Literally.
Like next door.
Oh, there was an escapade.
Like.
With an 11 year old.
And he's like, that's ridiculous.
That's silly.
So for this arrest, he was actually placed on probation at the age of 12 for being in
a pool when he wasn't supposed to.
Yeah.
Well, they're according to the community, it seems like these are troubled kids because
their mom and their home life isn't very good and they're just breaking in their things.
Well, they're also smoking weed at 11 years old, 10 or 11 years old.
But at the same time, like they're just kids.
So what now this kid has a record at age 11 because he was breaking, pretty much breaking
and entering.
Is that what they're trying to say?
Breaking and entering into a pool, maybe after hours or something.
I don't know, maybe just in general, not even after hours.
So this case plan for his probation was signed by him and his probation officer, Michael
Polk, but neither of his parents.
He's 12.
What?
So you'll see why in a second.
Because they're shitty fucking people.
I know why you told me.
So this case plan required him to obey curfew and report to the courthouse twice a week.
How was he going to get there?
12 years old.
How was he?
I mean, he's going to have to take a bus or something or walk.
So the fact that this wasn't signed by either of his parents is of course just as bizarre
to you as it is to me because he was a minor.
Not even that.
They're expecting him to show up at the courthouse.
What the hell?
His parents either don't know about this or they don't care.
So I was supposed to make it there.
So after looking into this further, I actually found out that his mother wanted absolutely
nothing to do with him once he was on probation and frequently told him that she wishes she
had aborted him when he was a fetus.
So like, your son gets in trouble for doing something that you are allowing and not saying
they're bad at all for kids because you fucking do it and then you tell him something like
that.
That is like the most heartbreaking thing.
Danny clearly knew what was best for him.
Yeah, I mean obviously it was-
Wherever you're at Danny, fuck you.
Literally.
Now because of this reason, he always met his probation officer alone and neither of
his parents were around for it, which I'm not in any way indicating that this probation
officer was crooked at all, but that's a liability in itself.
He could be.
Exactly, he could be.
He could be at 12 at this time, you know?
Like, that's scary.
Like, nothing ever happened that I saw, but that, you know, it could have potentially
been a very bad situation for him.
Like these, I mean, I know that there's probably things in place now that like a child that's
in that type of a situation has an advocate that likely go with them to these things or
pick them up or chauffeur them or whatever.
There has to be.
Yeah.
I mean, especially, I mean, this was in the 90s, but yeah, especially now you would think.
So by the age of 13, he actually made his first suicide attempt by slitting his wrists.
It seems like a very intense way to try to commit suicide at the age of 13.
At 13.
Yeah.
So I can only imagine, and this is me speculating, maybe what he had seen at school or with his
mom or something, you know?
Yeah.
Like that sounds like really intense.
He ended up being okay and just received some stitches for his wounds, but stitches, I
mean, that's a, you know, you have to have a pretty traumatic wound to get stitches.
Clearly significant enough to have to go to the hospital.
So it's unknown whether or not his parents knew about this, but I'm sure they did because
he was injured and they had to call him or not because they didn't tell him about the
probation thing or they didn't care.
Yeah.
No, they probably, he probably had to walk to the hospital.
Yeah.
So at age 15, he had a series of arrests building up his record.
These arrests included one for stealing a car and while he was in Juvie for this, he
was placed on suicide watch for a while, but he never received any ongoing mental health
treatment following his release, you know, just like what you do.
So at age 16, he's actually expelled from Sherman ISD's alternative education program
and placed in the alternative learning academy.
I couldn't really find the difference in these two, but maybe the learning academy is for
people with low attendance or maybe it's a more focused on behavioral rather than like
education.
So alternative school is basically like, like if you were to get your education while
also being in Juvie.
Okay.
So it's not like, but it's not locked down like a jail.
You can come and go like, and you know, honestly, some kids just choose not to show up, but
it's pretty much like a more condensed, it's like, go, yeah, you ever been to ISS?
Nope.
Did you ever go to after school detention or Saturday detention?
Yeah, I went to after school detention.
Okay.
But it was just like, do your homework and leave.
I didn't do that, but like a school.
So it's, yeah, it's like concentrated, like you're more eyeballs and you know, but you
do get more one-on-one time with teachers.
So it can be helpful for kids that are like in trouble and they can't go to regular school
because the regular school doesn't want you anymore because it costs you much of a fuss
and you go to alternative school.
He's having a lot of arrests at this point and you know, acts of defiance and stuff.
Well, I'm surprised that he was 16.
They made it all the way to 16 in school, honestly.
Yeah.
Now during this time, another suicide attempt is made by this time by scratching the skin
off of his wrist with his nails out.
This second suicide attempt does not work and he is bandaged up and sent on his way.
Again, no follow-up for the mental health.
So this is where he starts to take a turn for the worse.
He already has a track record of course of not great, you know, arrest record and stuff,
petty things like, well, seemingly small, acts of-
Similar to what happens later.
Yes.
At 16 still, Andre begins dating a woman named Laura Boren.
Laura is a young white woman, which is important to mention because Andre is a young black
man.
Laura's about 15 at this time and after dating, she finds out that she's pregnant.
So after finding out that Laura's pregnant, Andre dropped out of school to work several
jobs in order to support her and the baby.
So dropping into school, not the greatest move, but also he's doing it, I guess for
the right reasons to work.
Yeah, he's doing the right thing.
On August in 1999, Laura gave birth to their child, Andre Thomas Jr.
Oh, a baby.
And on March 17th, 2001, on Andre's 18th birthday, the two got married.
Unfortunately, their marriage does not work out and they ultimately separated only four
months later.
Oh my gosh.
I know, very short.
After the marriage broke up, Andre experienced much more intense delusions and suicidal thoughts.
Now at this point, you know, he had already attempted suicide twice with seemingly no
concern from his parents and absolutely no mental health console.
Right.
He had no help or even self-help at this point.
He's not doing anything.
During this time, he became obsessed over apocalyptic concepts in the book of a relation and he
had trouble keeping a job because of it.
So I mentioned like it's okay to have piqued interest in anything, but when it starts to
affect your daily life, your job, your finances and your relationships, that's when it becomes
an obsession and a problem.
This actually got so bad that he began to believe that his ex-wife, Laura, was Jezebel.
If you don't know who Jezebel is, if you're not a Christian or you don't follow the Bible,
Jezebel was the daughter of Ithbal, who was the king of Cytoh and the wife of Ahab, king
of Israel.
It's said that in the Bible, she promoted the worship of false gods, harassed and killed
God's prophets and arranged for an innocent man to be falsely charged and executed.
So not a good lady.
Yeah.
That wasn't a compliment.
So in Andre's mind, Jezebel, a terrible person, needs to be punished.
On top of thinking that she's Jezebel, he's now thinking and believing that his baby son
is the Antichrist.
So you can see where this is going.
I just, I know.
Back to when you said clearly the parents aren't taking care of any of this or whatever, but
what about school officials?
What about teachers?
They're mandated reporters.
It just gets worse with the lack of help for him.
Seriously.
It's absolutely baffling to me how many opportunities this guy had to get help and nobody fucking
cared.
That's why I wanted to do this one for the very first one, to really push in the fact
that this is a mental health advocacy podcast that touches on true crime.
And don't get me wrong, I am not by any way saying that he doesn't deserve to be punished
for his actions.
However, there's a lot of opportunity for him to not have even gone down this path.
So fast forward to January 2002, Andre got arrested again on an assault charge.
Sidebar, sorry.
You said that it was important that we know that she's white and he's black.
Why?
It'll come up later.
Oh, okay, okay.
Thank you.
I just know we're going to leave this up at all.
I will.
It's important to know.
Anyways.
Yeah, it's important.
So he reported that he drinks two 40 ounce beers each day and he has a history of suicide
attempts.
So he's doing the right thing.
He's telling them, hey, I am self-medicating and I am suicidal.
The charge was actually for stabbing one of his brothers over an altercation over music.
So the background story of this real quick is that his brother was playing this loud music.
I guess they lived together.
He was staying with him or something.
And Andre believed that the loud music was actually sending evil spirit through the walls
and he didn't like that.
So he told the brother.
I'll say I wouldn't like that.
So he told the brother to turn the music off and when he didn't, he stabbed him and
was arrested and placed on suicide watch, but it was not indicted.
So how, I mean, not that you know, but how bad was the stabbing?
Was it just like once?
He was fine.
Yeah.
So it was just like, it wasn't enough to mention, you know, it was just like, turn the music
up.
Turn the music down.
Lovely.
It's a little funny.
During this time of his arrest, he was noted as saying things along the lines of that he
was quote reliving the same day over and over and continued to speak of the angels and demons
arguing in his head.
So this is coming up again this many years later.
He's like 20 at this time.
You probably have no perception of time.
Yeah.
Like if you feel like you're reliving the same day or exactly that's what I was going
to say.
It's like Groundhog Day.
But like if you feel like they're constantly talking to you, do you ever sleep?
Do you ever have a moment's rest?
Your brain is constantly working.
I mean, it has to be disorienting.
That's like a really like, I can't even imagine.
Me neither.
Like I feel like I have some tendencies towards like having anxiety and what if, and I know
that feeling about when my brain just won't shut off.
And I think most people like in that especially because there's memes about it.
It's got to be more than just me that experiences this or just you like when you're laying in
bed and those thoughts are just going.
And all of a sudden it's 5 AM and you're like, but could you imagine if that was your life
every day all the time?
No, people that you would have no idea what time it is.
People that are living with schizophrenia and you know, are living full lives of schizophrenia
I think are truly remarkable.
Like that is such an intense, you know, mental disorder to come like to like get a hold of
and go get through and properly diagnose it too because there's got to be so many other
things that are called like when you, what's that called when you have like something and
then there's all those underlying things.
Comorbidity.
Yes.
Comorbidity.
So the comorbidity might be sending off all of these other symptoms that you just treat
little by little and you don't treat the schizophrenia.
Yeah, exactly.
So you're seeing all these other forward presenting symptoms rather than like that.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So like he's obsessed with religion.
It's not that it comes from this, like nobody thinks it comes from the schizophrenia.
Yeah.
Everybody just thinks that he's like a nut, sorry, but like a nut job.
A nut job, I mean, you know, which I don't want to use terms like that, but you know,
people might just be like, okay, that guy's religiously weird.
Like he's too obsessed with religion.
Yeah.
They not understand that he has a disorder.
Yeah.
So thankfully for a little while after this, he was able to control his urges and thoughts
and everything was good, but I wouldn't say very good.
He was just nonviolent for a few years.
In March 2004, this is three years after the divorce, after the divorce and his son is now
three years old, a friend of Andre's noticed that he was acting strange and took him to
a mental health clinic.
What a fucking guy.
That guy's like the truest of the true boy right now.
I don't know if it was a guy or a girl, but what a person.
That person has done more in his life than anyone else up until this point.
Seriously.
Now, of course, his mental health status had been very rocky and obvious since he was
10, he's now 21.
So this has been 11 years later that somebody's actually trying to help him get his mental
health under control.
Awesome.
Yay.
Go on you.
They took him to a mental health clinic where Andre literally said to the people in the
mental health clinic that he was going to jump in front of a bus and kill himself if
he could not speak to somebody.
So right this way.
He also says, quote, life is too much for me and I want to die right now.
What would you say if that was someone that came into your clinic?
I'd probably give them an extended stay insurance or rent free.
You immediately took him back.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, these people did the quite opposite and said, oh, you need to go to the emergency
room.
They turned him away?
Yeah.
They said, oh, we can't help you here.
You need to go to the ER.
Like if you're suicidal, you need to go to the ER.
You're a fucking mental health.
Yeah.
What is that?
Like what?
You're telling me that nobody else in that mental health clinic wants to kill themselves.
Seriously.
Oh, don't worry.
They took a bit more action, however, and they had a judge prepare an emergency detention
order, which it can be helpful in order to detain somebody needed to be on suit as I'd
watch against their will.
Yeah.
However, it can take up to 12 hours to complete.
So what?
This guy is immediately in imminent danger of hurting himself.
And maybe that's why they said go to the emergency room is so that they could.
Okay.
And if, but what, pump them full of drugs because that's typically calming down.
Yeah.
Until he's not feeling like shit anymore and then send him on his way.
But even if they were like, hey, go to the emergency room.
Don't you think they would have like arranged for him to get there?
Yeah.
So they're saying like, go on.
Like go on.
Figure it out.
Exactly.
Okay.
Go on to the next place.
Shame on those fucking people.
For sure.
So what do you think happens next?
Oh yeah.
He doesn't go to the fucking emergency room.
Yeah.
He just leaves.
And it's now a pattern of behavior where he's asking for help and nobody's willing to help
him.
Seriously.
So he just accepts that now.
So he doesn't go to the ER.
Shocker.
Three weeks later, he attempts suicide yet again, this time by stabbing himself in the
chest.
It was unsuccessful and he went to Texoma Medical Center.
When asked what happened, he said that he was trying to quote crossover into heaven.
That is a red flag from mental illness right there.
And the physicians at the ER should at least have a little bit of background knowledge
of mental health and how it presents itself as a mental illness.
I mean, how it presents itself.
Like that should have been a tall tall sign.
Like, okay, this guy is...
Well, don't people like when they go to the hospital for suicide attempts, don't they
get a psych eval before they leave?
Yeah.
So like I'm getting there.
This is infuriating.
So the wound was determined to not be life threatening, but the ER physician arranged
for psychiatric commitment either way.
Unfortunately, while these arrangements were being made, Andre left the ER.
How?
Because no one was watching him even though they were waiting for a psychiatric fucking
consult.
Nope.
They just left him in the room by himself with probably sharp objects.
I just, I think of those like typical like, uh, movie scenes where somebody's trying to
sneak out of a hot, they're like in a hospital gown.
Yes.
That was likely him.
Literally.
So also, what about that detention order, the emergency detention order?
It's been three weeks.
Don't they have that on file?
It's been three weeks.
They should have that on file.
And in that case, they shouldn't have allowed him to leave at that point.
It's emergency detention.
They should have known.
He doesn't have free will to leave.
And it's not like an A, they can do an AMA.
Like he is literally detained for at least 72 hours.
No one communicated with each other.
No one cares.
That's awful.
That is so awful.
Oh, so shame on you.
Right.
So after the physician noticed that Andre was gone, they notified the, uh, the Denison
Police Department.
Good, right?
Uh, this is where his dad was living.
So not where he was in Sherman, but where his dad was living, I guess, because they
looked up his address on file or whatever, and that's where it was.
So maybe he was like, maybe he's going back to see his dad.
Like, let me call them and let them know.
When the physician contacted the police, they said, I believe at this point that Andre
may be dangerous, dangerous to himself and or society.
Police never had any contact with them after that.
They didn't even follow up.
They didn't even try to get a hold of Andre.
What?
Literally.
They go to the dad's house at all?
No.
Not that I saw.
Not that they noted.
Oh my God.
Like, do you see how many fucking opportunities these people have to stop what's about to
happen from happening?
Now this is March 27th, 2004.
This is two days after leaving the hospital against medical advice and while they were
trying to get him set up.
Andre, this is where I'm going to detail the crime.
So content warning.
Andre proceeded to go to Laura's apartment, his ex-wife, where she was living with her
new 13 month old daughter that she had had with her current relationship and her and
Andre's four year old son they shared was also there, Andre Jr.
Andre went into the apartment, kicked in the door and proceeded to stab Laura to death.
Now it was mentioned that he had three knives and I'll explain why.
After fatally wounding Laura, he actually tried to remove her heart with the knife,
but he accidentally removed a piece of her lung instead because he was didn't know what
it means.
Well, I mean, yeah.
So after this, he proceeded to go to the bedroom, which was shared by his four year old son
and the 13 month old daughter, proceeded to do the same thing to both of them.
He actually successfully removed both of their hearts.
And I didn't really find anything about why he wanted to remove their hearts, but sources
did say that because he thought his ex-wife was Jezebel and his son was the Antichrist,
that maybe he was trying to like make sure that they were like actually gone.
Or they're not trophies, but that they made sure that that part of them wasn't taken.
I don't know.
Yeah.
He also, I mentioned that he had brought three knives into the house.
He mentioned that he used a different knife on each victim because he didn't want their
blood to mix because that can in turn-
Was he Jehovah's Witness?
No.
No, no.
He thought that the blood contained like demon spirits and if he allowed the blood to mix,
the demon could like travel from the bodies and then like live.
Okay.
You know, does that make sense?
Not really, but you see everything.
No, yeah.
Yeah.
So this next part, I saw two different accounts from two different sources, so I'm going
to say them both.
After he had fatally stabbed all three of the victims, the first account said that he went
into the living room where his ex-wife was.
He laid down on the floor and he stabbed himself in the chest three times, expecting
to die from his wounds.
It then said that after he realized that he wasn't going to die, he stood up, put the
organs in his pockets and then walked home.
That was the first source.
Okay.
And then he said after he fatally stabbed everybody, he also put the organs in his
pockets, but then he went home and stabbed himself in the chest there.
Oh, okay.
So I'm not sure which one.
I think the second one was a little bit more, it made a little bit more sense to me because
of what happens next.
So upon arriving at home, again, it doesn't say before after, I'm sure it was before he
stabbed himself, he placed the organs in a bag and just threw them in the trash.
He immediately called his ex-wife's parents.
Right.
After he got, oh.
Before or after he stabbed himself?
I'm assuming this is before just because if you stab yourself, you're probably not ready
to make a phone call.
Right.
But the other account was that he stabbed himself, he tried to take a nap and he just
woke up and then walked home.
That's true.
Bad the wounds were.
Yeah.
They weren't life-threatening.
Yeah.
Well, they were pretty bad.
Okay.
Now they didn't answer the phone, but he did leave a voicemail for them, which is haunting.
That's awful.
So the voicemail says the following, quote, Sherry, this is Andre.
I need y'all's help.
Something bad is happening to me and it keeps happening and I don't know what's going on.
I need some help.
I think I'm in hell and I need help.
Somebody needs to come help me.
I need help bad.
I'm desperate.
I'm afraid to go to sleep.
So when you get this message, come out to the house, please.
Hello?
That's the voicemail.
Oh my gosh.
Like imagine getting that because it doesn't say anything that happened.
It's just how.
You get that voicemail and you're like, what's going on?
Do you think he was trying to lure them?
No, I don't think so at all.
I think that he really realized that he messed up and he was terrified and he didn't know
what to do.
He probably doesn't even know how bad it was.
Exactly.
So shortly after this, Andre walked to the police department in Sherman, Texas and turned
himself in.
He entered the department at approximately 9.30 a.m. where standing in the lobby, he
told dispatcher Cindy Card that he had just killed his wife and wanted to turn himself
in.
A nearby officer rushed to the lobby and kind of like patted him down for weapons.
And when the police arrived, most of them, and he was talking to them, he told them that
he, quote, thought God wanted to kill them and, quote, will I be forgiven?
That's what he said.
I know.
Like really terrible.
That's so sad.
He was noted as being calm and lethargic as he told the officer that he had also stabbed
himself in the chest.
So this is really like showing the lack of understanding and empathy that he doesn't
understand.
He's completely disconnected.
He doesn't get it.
Yeah.
He's playing that he killed each victim with separate knives because, like I said earlier,
he told them about the demons.
He didn't want to mix their blood.
He was also quoted as saying, quote, if the victim's blood were allowed to mix, the demon
may survive.
He was, of course, immediately taken into custody and sent to the hospital to take care
of the wounds.
Oh, no shit.
Yeah.
He went to the hospital and underwent chest surgery at this point.
Yeah.
Did he escape after that again?
Right.
They let him leave.
They just don't watch him.
So this is five days after the murders.
He's in jail awaiting trial.
Content warning.
So the jury at this point took it upon himself to remove his right eyeball with his bare
hands.
What?
Like he removed his own right eyeball with his bare hands.
And like, in...
Are you okay?
Like in jail awaiting trial?
He ripped out his own eye.
Yes.
After doing so, he actually asked for Laura, showing that he clearly had no idea that
she was gone.
So when asked about what the reasoning was behind him removing his eyeball, he...
One source said that he was reading the Bible wall in jail and he came across Matthew 5
verse 29, which says, quote, if your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out.
Another source that I read said that after pulling his eye out, he quoted Mark 9 verse
14, which states, quote, and if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, it is better
to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.
So...
So he thought by doing that, he might save himself from going to hell, which he had already
said that he felt like he was in.
So it kind of...
Imagining a life that's worse than the one that you have, that's scary.
It's very sad.
I think that although it doesn't make sense, it makes sense.
You can understand where he's coming from.
The mind set of him.
If I was not scared, then I probably would too, right?
So two psychologists came after this and interviewed him to determine his competence to withstanding
trial.
Perfect.
Which actually, that's what I want to do for my career later in life.
I want to be able to do that.
They actually both agreed that he met the standards to be diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Bum, ba-ba-ba.
There we go.
There's his diagnosis.
They also declared him...
Yeah, I don't think it took them this long for him to be evaluated.
Yeah.
They also declared him incompetent to stand trial.
So due to this diagnosis, he was sent to North Texas State Hospital, and this is in
mid-June 2004.
This is a mental housing unit for prisoners, and he was finally sent to a place that could
potentially help get a handle on the diagnosis.
He spent 47 days in the hospital, and at this time, psychiatrist Joseph Black, you're gonna
not like this guy, wrote to the court that Andre had suffered from drug-induced psychosis,
adding that he was indeed competent, and he might attempt to exasperate his mental illness
by engaging in self-harm or other erratic behavior.
What?
But he's saying, no, this guy's not schizophrenic.
He's a drug user and an alcohol abuser.
That's what made him psychotic.
Not the mental illness that he quote-unquote has.
And then he was using physical harm against himself in order to perpetuate the idea that
he was insane.
Yes.
So because of this, Joseph Black, he had the previous diagnosis of schizophrenia and
unfit to stand trial completely thrown out the window.
So now they're gonna try him.
What?
Like, as being competent.
Yes.
So one psychiatrist comes in and he's like, no, those other guys don't know what the
hell they're talking about.
This is my diagnosis, or anti-diagnosis, I guess.
He's fine.
Let's try him.
And is this the guy that was from the house, the psychiatric house?
This guy is just random.
Okay.
He's probably for the prosecution.
Of course.
That's awful.
Now during this trial, Andre had a defense attorney named RJ Haggood.
The defense attorney that he had was actually ill with pancreatitis during the trial, and
he later came out and said that he regretted not objecting to Joseph Black's statement
of Andre being fit to stand trial.
So he had pretty much admitted that he dropped the fucking ball, and if he had just been
like, no, like if he'd challenged Joseph Black, he could have maybe had a complete different
outcome for the trial.
This is awful.
This is an awful way.
This is really awful.
And this is just worth noting because I thought it was interesting.
I actually looked up the signs and symptoms of pancreatitis to see that if anything that
this guy was potentially experiencing during the trial could have affected his ability
to have a fair trial.
So pancreatitis symptoms include severe abdominal pain, upper back pain, rapid heartbeat, upset
stomach, favor, favor, favor.
Favor.
Sorry.
He's got the favor.
Fever, weight loss, nausea and vomiting, stuff.
Fever, weight loss, nausea and vomiting, tender belly, bleeding and dehydration.
So I'm not sure about you, but if I was experiencing one or more of these symptoms.
At least two of those, I'd be like, I'm not coming in all the way today.
I probably wouldn't be in the best seat of mind.
Like literally you could have postponed the trial seriously.
Well, not only that, but-
Or gotten a sub.
Yeah.
But any types of medications that he might have been on to kind of help with those symptoms,
like pain medication, back and alter the way that he's thinking.
And he did come out later and he was like, I fucked up.
Like I shouldn't have gone through.
I should have been more like mentally like there, you know, competent.
So that was in March 2004 when the crime happened.
This is now February 15th, 2005, when his trial begins.
He was only charged for the death of Laura's 13 month old daughter.
And I'm not exactly sure why he wasn't charged for Laura or Andre Jr.'s deaths.
It might have been something to do with like, they were trying to paint him as such a monster
because this 13 year old innocent baby, but even as the four year old-
13 month old.
13 month old innocent baby.
You know, like maybe, I don't know, or maybe they had like the most concrete evidence for
that murder rather than the others.
I'm not sure.
It didn't really explain exactly why.
Either way, he got charged with just that death.
Okay, this is where the full circle comes back to the fact that Laura was a white woman
and Andre was a black man.
During trial, Andre faced an all white jury because, I mentioned that, because during
this time, three of the jurors and one alternate that was there just in case, all indicated
that they were opposed to interracial couples marrying or having children.
Oh my God.
So I don't know why they let these jurors continue on with this trial.
They had racially insensitive, you know, judgments about interracial marriage and reproduction.
And one of the jurors actually indicated specifically, quote, I don't believe God intended for this.
We should stay with our bloodline.
Oh my God.
And they let these people be on the jury of a young black man.
That is...
Oh my God.
Isn't it supposed to be a jury of your peers?
Yeah.
That is not a jury of his peers.
But the thing is, is like, not a lot of people know this about jury selection.
The prosecution and the defense both have to agree on who's sitting in that jury.
Yeah.
So what the fuck?
So the defense had to have known these things before.
So what the hell?
Again, RJ had to drop in the ball.
Yeah.
Now, Andre's sanity was clearly a topic of interest during the trial and his behavior
during the trial was described as almost catatonic at times.
What you and I know, and if you don't know what the word catatonic means, it involves
a lack of movement awareness or communication.
So he's pretty much like staring into space.
And not only paying attention, doesn't really understand what's going on.
And then also aligns with schizophrenia.
Yep.
Yeah.
He was also reported as eating Skittles during the trial for quite some time, which I don't
know why they mentioned that, but I guess it's kind of like, oh, and he can just sit
here and eat a snack, you know, or whatever.
So the jury is also jealous that he has a snack.
He has candy, Damien.
He has candy.
He wears my candy.
So, of course, his defense attorneys put forth an insanity defense because he has as long
history of mental illness.
And the other psychologist said that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but then Joseph
Black came in and got it removed.
In response, the state said that Andre's mental illness was caused or worsened by drug
use.
And they said that the quote, Texas law invalidates an insanity defense if the mental condition
was a result of voluntary action.
Because he's black.
He's black, he uses drugs.
That's what they're trying to say.
So they're pretty much saying, yeah, he might be like a little mentally ill, but he's like
making it much worse with drugs and alcohol.
So that's his fault.
But he's having those signs and symptoms of schizophrenia, which has nothing to do with
the, again, the drugs and the alcohol are a comorbidity.
They are not the cause of it.
Those are symptoms of his schizophrenia.
So the defense repuddles and says, no, the removal of his eyeball proves that he was
insane.
This happened and at the time of the crime, because he wasn't on drugs or drinking during
that.
And the state chalked it up to a quote, impulsive act rather than insanity.
I swear to God, my, okay, impulsive act.
I buy like $50 worth of food as an impulsive act that I don't eat.
Like I'm sorry.
I start painting my nails as an impulsive act and then I never finished the rest of
them.
Like what the hell?
An impulsive bro.
I don't think I've ever, yeah, no.
I would like to take a, if I could take a world poll right now and ask how many people
have ripped out their eyeballs on an impulse, the answer is likely zero.
Close to none.
Yeah.
Like what the fuck?
So by the end of the trial, Andre was convicted of capital murder and sentenced to death.
Like literally.
I'm like cringing.
So awful.
There's a lot of stigma surrounding the insanity plea.
Of course it's like super hard to get approved as the insanity defense because you really
have to prove pretty much that your client had no fucking clue what they were doing at
the time of the crime.
And even when you do prove that, sometimes the insanity defense still doesn't resonate
with the jury.
Yeah.
Big names like Ted Bundy and Charlie Manson, they actually both tried to plead insanity,
which is like fuck off because no.
But you know, there's a lot of times in history where the insanity defeat gets proposed and
then it gets denied.
It's very rare, which I want to do like an entire podcast episode on the insanity plea.
I think that would be super interesting.
Yeah.
Because I think Berkowitz even tried to plead insanity.
Yeah.
And it was schizophrenic as well.
And, uh, but I don't think that he has ever went through.
Yeah.
After the trial, Andre was sent to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice's Polanski
unit.
This is where Death Row and Mates are housed.
And during this time, he continued to hear voices and claimed to see a six inch tall
demon coming out of the prison wall and playing music from the band Queen.
I love Queen.
I love Queen so much, but that's terrifying.
I don't know if I'm terrified or turned on.
No, but seriously.
No, six.
I think it's a six inch.
Six inch.
Oh, six inches.
Why would it be six inches?
I don't know.
Well, I would think it would be six foot.
That's why I started doing this because I was like, oh, a six inch demon like playing
the devil.
No, but it was six foot.
And I wrote it wrong.
I don't know.
The devil goes down again.
Some sort of six, six, six, six.
There you go.
Yeah.
Now in July, 2008, Andre attempted suicide yet again, this time by attempting to cut
his throat with a sharp object.
They didn't specify what it was, but the wound required eight stitches and he survived.
Fast forward to October 2008, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied his appeal, so no
movement in the case at all.
They like stuck with the conviction.
No, they don't have to do anything for the rest of forever.
It's just a yet another black man who is living on death row, who killed his wife and his
babies.
Seriously.
And a concurring drug addict.
I mean, that's awful.
Yeah, it's awful.
In a concurring opinion, Judge Kathy Cochran wrote, quote, although reasonable people might
well differ on the questions of whether this applicant was sane at the time he committed
the murders or competent at the time he was tried.
Those issues were appropriately addressed by the defense, the prosecution, trial judge
in the jury during the trial.
This is a sad case.
Applicant is clearly, quote, crazy, but he's also, quote, sane under Texas law.
Applicant.
Yeah.
Applicant.
Not Andre Thomas.
Not this person, not a human being, an applicant.
So Leia Marie Hughes, which was the 13 month old, her father reportedly told the police
after his daughter's murder that quote, Andre Thomas was crazy, unstable.
Everyone knew him and his entire family was crazy.
I hate that fucking word.
I hate that word too.
I hate that word.
That's like such a like cloud over your head stigma.
So this Judge Kathy Cochran was pretty much saying like, yeah, he doesn't deserve the
death penalty, but he's because he's literally insane, but he doesn't meet all the requirements
for being sane enough not to be put to death.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like that.
Now, just after noon on December 9th, 2008, a corrections officer assigned to Texas's
death row was making a normal security round in building 10 when he observed what appeared
to be blood on the face of inmate Andre Thomas.
The inmate told the officer that he had pulled out his last good eye and eaten it.
So when he asked why he did this, he said it was to be.
It was an impulse.
Yeah.
Just an impulse in fact.
You know, I just felt like ripping my only other eye out.
Yeah.
So he said to prevent the United States federal government from reading his thoughts.
So again, not a, not a, you know, understanding explanation.
Yeah.
After that, he was treated in a hospital in Tyler, Texas, and then transferred to the
Texas Department of Criminal Justice's Jester four unit where prisoners with mental
health mental houses are ill with where prisoners with mental illness are housed.
So finally, finally, his trial attorney said that he was able to finally get the psychiatric
help that he needed.
So we're going to fast forward a little bit more to March 16, 2010, when Andre appeals
to the federal versus Eastern District Court, arguing that his trial was unfair and execution
would be cruel and unusual punishment.
The state denied his request.
In early 2020, his case was actually brought before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth
Circuit where attorney Catherine Carroll said that Andre's original legal representation
was ineffective and his trial's attorney failed to object to the selection of three jurors
with biased opinions against interracial marriages.
Thank you.
She also stated that trial counsel did not present an accurate information about Thomas's
longstanding mental health problems, didn't request a complete competency hearing and
presented a psychiatrist as an expert witness that did not have expertise in cases where
mental illness were allegedly drug induced.
Joseph Black.
Oh my God.
He didn't even have expertise in that field.
This is 2020.
And he's been in since pretty much 2005, 2006.
Now people are saying like, oh, well, literally.
Oh my gosh.
Now in response, the prosecutor said that while there was evidence to support his mental
illness, he was not insane.
So the most recent thing that we've heard was in April 2021, the Fifth Circuit upheld
the trial court's verdict.
So Andre stays in jail where his eyelids are literally sewn shut because he doesn't have
eyeballs.
And I guess to keep from hurting himself, obviously.
But he's pretty much stuck there for the foreseeable future.
And he's still on death row to this day.
I will definitely post updates as I see them.
Currently not much movement in his case.
Isn't that a wild story?
That is an intense case.
That was a lot one.
That was a lot for our first case.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank everybody for sticking through that.
I know that was kind of, you know, a lot of information.
The whole theme of him, of someone trying to reach out just to try to figure out what's
going on in their head and literally no one can help them.
It gets to a point to where that person can't even make that decision anymore.
And yet he's still not being held.
It's really unfortunate.
I think this is a really bad case of, oh, whatever, he'll be fine.
Or he's just being exaggeratory or that guy's just crazy or whatever you want to say.
Like it's truly tragic that it ended up the way that it did because I genuinely think that
had he gotten the help that he needed that it would have gone a completely different
way and it might have been able to be prevented.
So our hearts absolutely go out to the victims.
We're not in any way saying that, you know, they don't deserve their story to be told,
which is exactly why we're doing this podcast.
We want to advocate for the mental illness that the killer experienced, but we're not
advocating for the killer.
Right.
Yeah.
Of course.
We're not just talking about the victims and we're glad we got justice.
I don't believe that Andre Thomas deserves to be free.
I do don't believe he deserves to be on death row.
I think that he needs to be housed in a mental housing unit for the rest of it or a psychiatric
hospital.
Right.
It's just unfortunate because I feel like at this point there's not, I don't think
there's a lot that you could do to probably reverse the damage that's been done to his
brain.
Oh yeah.
The damage that has been allowed to continue with his diagnosis because I mean really we
had two officials say that that's what they think that he has, but clearly he's never
truly been evaluated.
And I think that if things had happened when he was younger and he had people that paid
attention to him, parents, teachers, coaches, whatever, when he was 10 years old saying
these things, that I think that he could have had at least somewhat of a grasp.
And I think with a lot of mental illnesses and a lot of mental disorders, if you don't
know what your brain is experiencing, you can't ever catch it.
Of course.
And you can't, if you don't know the ins and outs of the symptoms and you don't know
what to look out for, I mean it's really hard to reach out to someone and say, I don't know
what's going on, but it's easier to reach out to someone and say, I do kind of know
what's going on.
Exactly.
And I know that at this point I've reached my threshold and I need to find some like
an alternative to this.
And he tried that so many times.
Even without the knowledge of what was going on in his brain.
Yeah, and I truly believe that anybody and everybody should be required to take some
sort of psychology course in their, even in high school honestly, because just having
that little bit of knowledge is very helpful for everyday situations.
I use psychology every single day at work and I work in the service industry.
I use it every single day in order to solve problems or to resonate with someone that's
going through something when my co-worker is or guest or whoever.
It genuinely helps me get through and I feel humbled by it and I feel like I'm giving back
to my community and my peers and stuff by being able to give that information and educate
people in that sense.
And I think that's really why both of us are so passionate about getting this podcast started
is because we really, really like the stories of true crime and stuff and it's very interesting
to us but the mental health advocacy is really I think the main goal here.
So we talked about schizophrenia in pieces during the episode.
I think we'll, I don't know, we're going to go into, I want to go into depth on certain
mental illnesses maybe in the future.
So that was the diagnosis that he was I guess loosely diagnosed with by those two psychiatrists.
Schizophrenia like I said, the number one symptom is auditory hallucinations.
You're hearing voices, they're inside your head, people are talking to you and you talk
back to them.
It also does come with a number of other things like the catatonia.
It comes with visual hallucinations.
You can see things that aren't there.
It comes with episodes of manic and mania and depression and there's a lot of things
that go into schizophrenia and it's actually really prevalent.
Just like 1% of Americans have schizophrenia.
It's a very prevalent disorder and you don't know like any literally anybody can have schizophrenia
and you wouldn't know and they might not even know.
So it's nice to have that knowledge so you can be able to differentiate between okay,
is this person struggling with a mental illness or is there something else going on?
And if there is either one then you know how to approach it.
So that's kind of a little bit of a tiny speck of information that we want to give about
mental disorders but we'll definitely get some info flowing out for you all.
Thank you so much for listening guys.
Super happy.
It was your first episode.
I'm like really excited.
I think we're gonna, hopefully we're gonna go far with this.
I think we're gonna do really well and I'm hoping that you guys are enjoying the first
content that we're putting out and let us know.
Reach out.
We'll try to get some lines of communication open and we'll let you guys know as soon as
we get those started and yeah.
In the meantime, my name is Kenna just to remind everybody, I know we're like brand new so
this is Kenna speaking.
I'm Koelle.
And we are sisters.
We're sisters.
And yeah, super excited to continue the rest of our journey if you will.
Yeah.
Alright.
Okay.
Love you.
Love you just love love still recognize.
Love you.
Love you too.
Love you.
Love you too.
Love you.
Love you, love you.
Love you.