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Welcome to Dates of Our Lives, a true crime and awareness podcast.

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I'm your host, Kena.

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In this podcast, I meet with a new guest each episode to discuss the date that changed their

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life.

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These stories include, but are not limited to, missing persons cases, survivor tales,

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personal tragedies, and more.

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This podcast was created nearly a decade after my own personal experience.

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In 2015, I lost one of my sisters, Cameron, in a truly horrific way, and I have been searching

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for meaning ever since.

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I truly believe each person's story is unique and extremely important to share, and I wanted

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to create a safe space to make that possible.

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Please join me in bringing awareness to these events and allowing space for healing, one

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episode at a time.

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You can listen to Dates of Our Lives anywhere you get your podcasts.

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Dates of Our Lives is coming soon, and I can't wait to share it with you guys.

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Hello!

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Hello!

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Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.

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I'm Kena.

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I'm Koelle.

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How's it going?

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Pretty good.

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Pretty good, pretty good.

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Not really, my nails are on fire.

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I know, you had these press-ons that you- well, we both do this.

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We buy press-ons because they frickin' work and they're cheap, I'm sorry, for me, and

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they look like real acrylics, but we also glue them.

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They're sticky, but we also use glue so that they stay longer.

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Mine lasted for three weeks last time I put them on.

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Three weeks?

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It's just hit or miss.

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And yours won't come off.

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These will not come off.

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I've lost only one nail, and then the rest I've been soaking in that extreme nail solution

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stuff for the last hour, which can't be good for your skin.

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And they still just won't come off.

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I have three hanging on by a thread right now.

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I can't even imagine.

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My nails are so brittle, like my real ones.

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I'm sorry.

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That's the way I feel.

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I feel like I just ripped them.

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Okay, new topic.

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We are going to get into this case.

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I'm really excited, but first, I do have a really nice message I've been meaning to

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read.

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I love nice messages.

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Yes, I'd like to read that.

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This is from listener Kalyana.

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If I mispronounce that, I apologize.

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Kalyana says, hello, I've been binging your podcast.

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I've only been listening to you guys for a couple months.

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I'm enjoying all of the content, especially the mental breakdowns.

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I'm currently going from my RN and I love the education.

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I recently had to put my dad in a behavioral unit to help him with his schizophrenia.

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Your podcast helped me understand what he's going through.

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Thank you for all the confidence and help you to have given me.

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Wow.

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I know.

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Thanks, Kalyana.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah, we received that message a few weeks ago, and I think I sent you a screenshot and

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I actually started crying.

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It was very touched and I was very, I was like, I've made it.

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You've done it.

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We have done what we set out to do and thank you so much for sharing that with us because

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that really warms our hearts to know that we were able to assist and give you some confidence

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and peace.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that most importantly, you know that you're not alone.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Thanks again for that wonderful message.

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We also just wanted to give a big shout out to our Patreon members.

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We definitely see you guys posting on our Patreon and commenting on those bonus episodes.

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We're really glad that you guys are enjoying that extra content that you get.

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If you'd like to join our Patreon members, they do get an extra bonus episode each month.

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That is our tiers 3 and 4 Patreon members.

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You just need to go to patreon.com.

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We do have four tiers in our tier 1.

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They will get ad-free mental breakdowns.

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Tears 2, 3, and 4 will get ad-free every episode.

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Then again, those tiers 3 and 4 will get that additional bonus episode every month.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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On any podcast platform that you're using, don't forget to add us to your list the way

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you get instant updates and instant downloads.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Give us some follows.

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Give us some reviews because that actually helps us get our name out there more and attract

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more listeners and in turn be able to make more content.

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We just want to say really quickly again, thanks for 73,000 downloads.

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We're getting up there to 100,000 and we're going to make a big fuss about it when it

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happens.

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That's all you guys, so we really appreciate it.

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Yeah, maybe we'll even do a merch giveaway or something for that.

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Definitely.

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Do you want to give everyone the rest of our social media handles before we get into this

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case?

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Sure, you can check us out on social media anywhere at Diagnosing a Killer, other than

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ex formerly known as Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.

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We also have a CashUp, PayPal, and Venmo if you would like to support us monetarily.

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We are going to get the website back up, I promise.

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It's coming.

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It's coming.

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It was under maintenance.

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Yes, exactly.

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Oh yeah, you guys give us a follow if you don't already, tell your friends if you think

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we're funny.

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I think we're funny, but I might just be vain.

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Tell your friends, your family, your folks.

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Yes, triple oof.

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Okay, let's get into this case.

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This is actually a requested case, but he's also been on my list for quite some time.

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That's exciting.

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No pun intended.

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Oh, time.

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No, list.

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What do you mean list?

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Okay, so I know it sounded like I was making a ticking noise, but I was trying to do the

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elbow.

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This is a request from listener Becca, and the reason I made a no pun intended joke is

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because we are talking about John List today.

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Oh.

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He's been on my list for quite some time.

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A, A, got a mint on her pillow?

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Yeah, it's mint for you.

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Okay, let's get into this.

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Ready?

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But first, as you may know, we are doing our content warning at the end of the episode

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for each other as to not ruin anything for the other person that is listening and to

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get genuine reactions, but you guys will not hear anything different, which means you will

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be hearing your content warning right about now.

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Content warning.

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This episode contains depictions of child neglect, substance abuse, murder of children,

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and suicide.

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If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

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Remember, your mental health is very important, and we love you.

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Love you.

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Bye.

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Never gets old.

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Okay.

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John Amiel List was born on September 17, 1925 in Bay City, Michigan, to parents John Frederick

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List and Alma Barbara Florence List.

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He would be the only child to his parents.

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1925.

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That's bold.

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It was the 30s.

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Although I'm sure a lot of families couldn't afford a lot.

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This was during the Depression or right after.

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True.

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John Sr. was noted as being nearly 25 years older than Alma, and the two had only been

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married a year when John Jr. was born.

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Both John Sr. and Alma were of German descent, and they would attend the local German Lutheran

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Church.

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The family lived in a Victorian house in which they rented the upstairs apartment.

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Due to the limited amount of space, John Jr. slept in the living room and was noted as

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having no space for his things or hardly any privacy growing up.

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That's gotta be rough.

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Yeah.

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Everyone's just in my area.

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Yeah.

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You're in the communal area where everyone walks through, and yeah.

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That's gotta be rough.

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Yeah, no privacy.

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Like when you're a child, child, like a little, maybe it doesn't matter so much, but as you

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get older, of course, that privacy is important.

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Due to living in such a small open area, John grew up learning how to be very neat and clean

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as his living space was also shared with his parents.

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That's not gonna be a complex later.

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John Sr. was noted as being less than interested in spending time with his son, and he would

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mostly deal with John Jr. through Alma, referring to him only as the boy.

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That's not gonna affect him later.

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Oh, are you with the boy?

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The boy.

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Like it's not your child that you created.

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Yeah.

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Furthermore, John Sr. was considered the neighborhood mean guy, and he and John Jr. would rarely

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spend any time together.

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He was just kind of like a grump.

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I mean, do you think that maybe he had a child with Alma because Alma wanted a child?

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I think that he didn't intend to have a child with Alma, and he was much older than her,

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so he was already over the kid thing.

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Yeah.

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And then when it happened, he's like, eh.

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Oh.

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You know.

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I know.

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I mean, that's just speculation.

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I don't know.

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Right.

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I wasn't there.

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Yeah.

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You asked him.

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Yeah.

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He told me.

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He told me.

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On top of this, John Sr. owned and ran a local store, and he was noted as strongly

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disliking the neighborhood children, and he would become upset when they would come into

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his store.

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He's like in a candy store.

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He's like candy for his children.

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With his parents being extremely involved in the church, John was expected to uphold

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the same amount of faith and behave and excel at school.

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Since John was not spending much time with his father, Alma would take it upon herself

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to bring him to her community functions, which mostly included events at the church.

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John Sr., on top of running a local store, was also a church trustee and its treasurer,

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and Alma would quickly begin to encourage John Jr. to follow in his father's footsteps.

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Hmm.

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All about religion.

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Yeah.

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But at the same time, why would he want to follow in his father's footsteps when his

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father doesn't want to include him in anything?

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Right.

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I think that was Alma's way of maybe trying to get them to form a better relationship.

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That makes sense.

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She's trying to encourage John Jr. to do something that John Sr. enjoys.

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Right.

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To kind of create that bond.

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Yeah.

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Alma would also take it upon herself to spend more quality time with John Jr. each night

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at bedtime, and the two would read the Bible together most nights.

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You made a face like, oh no.

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Well this is a crime podcast.

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I didn't know where this was going.

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Alma was noted as being a bit of a worried mother, especially since John was her only

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child.

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She would constantly be worried that her son would get sick, and because of this, she would

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watch him constantly and keep him dressed up in order to stay warm and dry.

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She's a little helicoptery?

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Yeah, very much so.

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Alma would also tell John that the outside world was scary and dangerous, and she would

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not permit him to go play with any other neighborhood children or even like play outside by himself.

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I'm gonna say it again.

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That's not gonna affect him later.

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Yeah, right.

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A lot of these things we're seeing.

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Oh no.

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John, having a good relationship with his mother and a poor one with his father, abided

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by Alma's wishes and accepted that he would just be staying home.

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Once John reached high school, he had a little bit of luck making some friends, but he found

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himself having trouble making any romantic connections with girls.

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His mother's number one.

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Right, exactly.

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She's probably like, don't date girls, they're the devil.

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They're the devil.

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Little girls is a devil.

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John would blend into the background throughout his time at Bay City Central High School,

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and he would ultimately graduate in the year 1943.

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The same year he graduated high school, John would enlist himself in the United States

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Army to serve as a laboratory technician during World War II.

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Of course, Alma was totally against this, but John would find himself disobeying his

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mother for one of the first times, and he would go anyway.

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The following year, in 1944, John Sr. would die, and John Jr. would head home from the

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00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,200
army in order to attend his funeral.

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00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,160
During the funeral service, it was noted by several attendees that John was seemingly

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00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,600
unbothered by his father's death.

256
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,720
He was emotionless and showed no signs of grief, seeming unaffected by the death of his

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00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:22,720
father.

258
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,400
He never had an emotional connection to it.

259
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:25,720
Right, so why would he?

260
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:31,080
But again, at this time in history, I'm pretty sure, I feel like it would be a little odd,

261
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,040
like, it's the nuclear family.

262
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,160
You should be distraught that your father's dead.

263
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,600
I don't care what kind of relationship you had with it.

264
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:38,600
That's true.

265
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,680
It is a very different generation, and parents were completely different than the way they

266
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,680
are now.

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00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:48,960
It's just a father's role at that time could be seen as someone who's a disciplinarian,

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00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,160
someone who keeps the family in line, and maybe not everyone did have an emotional connection

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00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:55,360
with their father back then.

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00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:56,600
But they probably had to pretend.

271
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,080
They probably had to pretend anyways.

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00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,600
Following the funeral, John would return to the army where he would serve for another

273
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,200
two years before being discharged in 1946.

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00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,560
Although he was there for nearly three years, John did not get to see much combat as the

275
00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,680
war was over pretty quickly after he enlisted.

276
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:20,360
However, he would come home with a keen interest in firearms and a new weapon of his own, an

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00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,800
Austrian Steyr pistol.

278
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,840
He got to keep it, I guess.

279
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,320
Or maybe he bought it when he was overseas.

280
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:28,920
Or he stole it off of somebody's body.

281
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,920
Well, you know.

282
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:31,920
Speculation.

283
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,320
Tomato, tomato.

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00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,480
Once John was home, Alma would quickly take it upon herself to encourage John to go to

285
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,240
school for accounting as it could turn into a really good career for him.

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00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,880
John would agree and would make the decision to go to college where he would enroll at

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00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,680
the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

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00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:54,200
While he was here, Alma would frequently visit John and the two would go to dinner and attend

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00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,680
church services together as well as studying the Bible.

290
00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:03,000
John would go on to earn a bachelor's degree in business administration.

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00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:07,240
During this time, he would also be recognized as a second lieutenant through his participation

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00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,680
in the ROTC.

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00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:14,120
Furthering his education even more, John would quickly enroll in his graduate program and

294
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:21,360
achieve his master's degree in accounting.

295
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,920
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As to see what's getting ready to begin a career in the field, John would be called

306
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,680
into service for the Korean War in November of 1950.

307
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:12,680
This is like...

308
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:17,920
Okay, so his mother is the one that said...

309
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,920
She didn't agree with him going into the military, but when he came back, she was like,

310
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:22,200
oh, you should do this business thing.

311
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,880
And he's like, okay.

312
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,960
And then he just did it for so long.

313
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:27,960
And I just...

314
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,120
I feel like this is gonna come back around.

315
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,680
I feel like this is gonna be...

316
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,720
He leaves and she's gonna be... and I told you so situation or...

317
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,280
Okay, just tell me.

318
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,800
But at the same time, during this time when he's going back to the war, now it's not his

319
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,800
choice.

320
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,920
He was called because the war was starting and they're like, we need you.

321
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,120
I don't know if at that point there was a draft for the Korean War or if it was because

322
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:49,600
he was a veteran.

323
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,600
So they're like, we just need you.

324
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:52,600
Right.

325
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,160
But either way, if he hadn't been defiant, he wouldn't be called.

326
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,160
That's true.

327
00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,160
Yeah.

328
00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,160
That's what I'm saying.

329
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,160
Yeah, at the beginning, yeah.

330
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,760
During this stint in the military, similarly to his first experience, John would not see

331
00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,080
much combat and he would be stationed at Fort Eustis in Virginia.

332
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,720
Here, John would meet a woman by the name of Helen Morris Taylor.

333
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,400
Helen was the widow of an infantry officer that had been killed in action in Korea and

334
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,600
she lived nearby the base with her nine-year-old daughter Brenda.

335
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,560
One night, while out for a bowling excursion, John would meet Helen, who was there with

336
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,520
her sister Jean.

337
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,080
John would strike up conversation with Helen and she would notice that while he seemed

338
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,440
like a bit of a mama's boy, he was kind and stable.

339
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,600
John and Helen would quickly get acquainted and begin dating, an arrangement that Alma

340
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,640
did not care for one bit.

341
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,640
Shocker.

342
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:44,640
Right.

343
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:50,280
Alma was noted as being suspicious of Helen because she did not belong to their church.

344
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,680
Alma also noted that Helen had endured multiple miscarriages at the young age of 24 and she

345
00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:01,320
was concerned that she would not be able to bear John a child and Alma a grandchild.

346
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,200
But I mean, she has a child, so she has a child.

347
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:06,200
Exactly.

348
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:07,800
Like, don't forget about that child.

349
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,400
That child also still needs the nuclear family.

350
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:11,400
Right.

351
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,400
They're Alma, okay?

352
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,440
However, quickly after they began seeing each other, Helen would announce that she

353
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:17,760
was pregnant.

354
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:22,960
Due to this news, Helen and John would quickly get married just two months after meeting

355
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,080
on December 1st, 1951.

356
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,080
My, that is quick.

357
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,880
That is quick.

358
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,840
Following their marriage, Alma would take any opportunity to tell John that he had made

359
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,080
a mistake and married down, which is so rude.

360
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,080
Oh, my God.

361
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:37,080
That is so rude.

362
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,080
It's still your daughter-in-law.

363
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,480
You're not going to make any attempt?

364
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:41,480
No.

365
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,480
Shortly after the marriage, Helen would admit to John that she was not actually pregnant.

366
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,920
And Helen would quickly realize that she might have married John a little too soon after

367
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:51,920
meeting Alma.

368
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,920
She's like, ooh, I don't know if I like this one.

369
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,720
Man, can't get along with the mother-in-law divorce.

370
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:57,720
Yeah.

371
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,360
Around this time, the army would reassign John to the finance corps due to his accounting

372
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:06,560
education, and John would invite his mother to move in with the family as she had never

373
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,000
been to California before.

374
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,000
Well, that's a great idea.

375
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,000
Yeah, just move her in.

376
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,280
So they all moved to California.

377
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:12,280
Oh, my gosh.

378
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,200
So John, his wife, the daughter, and the mom.

379
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,200
Yes.

380
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,640
Once they were in California, Helen began to truly see the domineering person that Alma

381
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,080
was, and the two would very quickly begin budding heads.

382
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:28,120
On top of this, John would constantly find himself caught in between his wife and his

383
00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:29,120
mother.

384
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:30,120
Oh, no.

385
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:33,120
Taylor's oldest son.

386
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,880
Taylor's oldest son.

387
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,480
John would officially be discharged from the army in 1952, and he would shortly thereafter

388
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,880
find work at an accounting firm in Detroit.

389
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,880
He would move the family with him and begin working at the prestigious firm.

390
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,400
Helen, Alma's with them as well.

391
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,960
A few years into this job and still living in Detroit, Helen would become pregnant with

392
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,600
her and John's first child, and Patricia Marie would be welcomed to the world in January

393
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:02,600
of 1955.

394
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,600
For real this time?

395
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:05,600
Yes.

396
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,640
The birth of their first child would seemingly change Alma's mind about Helen, and she would

397
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,600
be awestruck with love for this child.

398
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:12,600
Oh, my gosh.

399
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,600
Oh, okay, you're fine now, my book, because you gave me a grandchild.

400
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,000
Yeah, because now I have a grandbaby.

401
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,920
On this time, John would take a different job, this time in Kalamazoo, Michigan, as an audit

402
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,880
supervisor at a paper company.

403
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:29,400
Helen and John's second child, John Frederick, would be born in 1956 while here in Kalamazoo,

404
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,240
the family moved yet again.

405
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,760
Meanwhile, Helen was growing tired of having to attend church services with John and his

406
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,840
mother when she was really not interested in his religion.

407
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:45,320
Helen would begin avoiding church, and this would leave John feeling abandoned and upset.

408
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,560
In response to this, John would begin to withdraw and spend more time in private.

409
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:55,560
This would go on for nearly two years until 1958, when Helen would become pregnant yet

410
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,640
again.

411
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,960
Helen would be experiencing intense depression around this time, and her pregnancy hormones

412
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:03,720
would not help this.

413
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,640
And keep in mind, she had a baby like within a year, and now it's within two years.

414
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,040
Like she's probably not given herself enough time to recover hormonally.

415
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,640
Now that it's her fault, but in general.

416
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,800
It can happen.

417
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:21,040
Also around this time, Brenda, Helen's first child, now 16, was beginning to cause trouble

418
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,840
and begging to get out of the house.

419
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,320
I'm sure she was like, this guy's not for me, I'm not as fan of his mom.

420
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,960
And there's two little babies now screaming all the time in the house.

421
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:31,960
Can't be fun.

422
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:32,960
That's true.

423
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,520
John and Helen's third child, Frederick Michael, would be born, and shortly after this, Helen

424
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,080
would begin drinking very heavily to cope with her depression.

425
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,840
Helen's addiction would quickly take over, and soon she was turning to tranquilizers

426
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,400
to cope with her feelings.

427
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,400
Tranquilizers?

428
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:49,400
Yeah.

429
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,400
Dang.

430
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,400
Do they even have those back then?

431
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,080
Yeah, horse tranquilizers, I'm sure.

432
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,040
Yeah, that's true.

433
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,520
Helen would recognize that she needed help around this time, and she would begin to see

434
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,120
a psychiatrist.

435
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:04,000
However, she was still struggling with her addiction, and this would cause her to spend

436
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,120
more money than she was making, and leaving John to be the main caretaker of the children,

437
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,760
as she was neglecting them at this time as well.

438
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:11,760
That's so sad.

439
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:12,760
It's really sad.

440
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:13,760
It's not.

441
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,960
She's clearly doing it because of something she's going through now, because she's a party

442
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:18,960
chick.

443
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,680
It kind of sounds like John is like, well, you're not interested in my religion, then

444
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,040
I'm not interested in helping you.

445
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:24,040
You need to just turn to God.

446
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,040
I'm sure he's saying that.

447
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,040
Yeah.

448
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,040
Just turn to the church or whatever.

449
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,440
Just like his own father.

450
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,720
However, regardless of her extracurricular activities, Helen's, John was known as rarely

451
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,480
complaining.

452
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,640
On a couple of occasions, Helen was noted as pushing John a little too far, and he was

453
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,080
noted as responding with rage and aggression.

454
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,400
In one particular instance, during an argument, John was noted as overturning the kitchen

455
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:48,400
table.

456
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,920
In response to this, an aloof Helen simply stated that she was not going to pick anything

457
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:59,120
up and left the room, leaving John to clean up his rage mess, which he did.

458
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:00,120
I'd be like that too.

459
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:01,760
I'd be like, okay, now you're going to clean that up?

460
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:02,760
Yeah, now you've got that.

461
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:03,760
Because, yeah.

462
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,080
What John is not going to do?

463
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:11,560
I understand what the picture is painting, which is that she is unbothered because of

464
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:18,360
the amount of alcohol and just her lack of probably understanding at this point of really

465
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:23,280
what's going on if she's numbing herself to extreme.

466
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,440
Yeah, definitely.

467
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,440
By 1959, John had risen to general supervisor of the company's accounting department, but

468
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:34,560
Helen's erratic behavior was also becoming increasingly unstable.

469
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,560
When we know to John, Helen had also contracted syphilis in the past from her previous husband,

470
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,800
a fact that she did not disclose to John when they got married.

471
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,560
This coupled with her depression and substance abuse issues caused Helen to experience extreme

472
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,560
mental symptoms.

473
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:56,120
A year later in 1960, an 18-year-old Brenda would marry and leave the household.

474
00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:00,400
Meanwhile, the company that John was working for would merge, and he would take the opportunity

475
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,160
to accept work in Rochester, New York, moving the family with him yet again.

476
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,240
That's a big move, though, especially if you're in finance.

477
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,240
Yeah, definitely.

478
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,240
That's great.

479
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,880
During the time he was working in New York, John and Helen's relationship would remain

480
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,840
the same, but John would keep up the act in front of his coworkers that he had the perfect

481
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:17,840
home life.

482
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,000
Of course.

483
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,040
Back at home, Helen would begin to despise John, and she would start to recognize the

484
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,720
attention she would get from other men.

485
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,000
Helen was not shy about this attention, and this would really upset John, straining their

486
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,800
relationship even further.

487
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,440
Is she going out at this point to drink?

488
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:43,560
I don't think it was a specific instance that I heard she was flirting with other men or

489
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,720
going out to meet other men.

490
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,280
I think she was just starting to realize that there was other men around her other than

491
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,280
John.

492
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,280
Sure.

493
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,520
She was distancing herself like, oh, there might be something better out here for me.

494
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,720
At the coffee shop, she's known as passing glances or something.

495
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,120
It wasn't super specific.

496
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:00,120
Yeah.

497
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:04,160
Regardless of their differences, John and Helen would stay married, and John would also

498
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,520
keep this position in New York until 1965.

499
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,200
Around this time, John accepted yet another different position as vice president and comptroller

500
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,880
at a bank in Jersey City, New Jersey.

501
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,840
So the LISC family would up and move once again, this time to a 19 room Victorian mansion.

502
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,840
Wow.

503
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,040
19 room.

504
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,720
What do you do with those 19 rooms?

505
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,320
You need like 15 more kids.

506
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:30,320
Yeah.

507
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,320
Exactly.

508
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:32,320
You don't have the children for that.

509
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,320
Yeah.

510
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,320
You just start adopting some.

511
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,960
But Victorian mansion, that's where John grew up, but they lived in the apartment at the

512
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:38,960
top.

513
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,480
So he's like, I'm gonna buy the whole damn house.

514
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:42,480
Full circle.

515
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,480
Yeah.

516
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,480
Wow.

517
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,280
However, while John's job was good, it was not that good.

518
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,720
And he wouldn't list the help of his mother to cover the down payment on the house.

519
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,720
Okay.

520
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,640
I don't like this whole like Norman Bates thing.

521
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,640
This wild thing.

522
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:55,640
Yeah.

523
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:56,640
She's coming too.

524
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:57,640
Yeah.

525
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,480
And it's very Norman Bates.

526
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,480
Very Norman Bates.

527
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,560
Also, it seems like he kind of doesn't stay in a position for very long, does he?

528
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,880
Is it that he's moving up or is it just, you think he gets bored?

529
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,280
I think it's a little bit of both.

530
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,720
And also, it kind of comes out later that he doesn't really have great like social skills

531
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,520
and like great relationships with coworkers.

532
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:20,520
I see.

533
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,920
So I think maybe he's like, I'm just over this and I just want to move somewhere else.

534
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,880
But he's also in turn like gaining better positions and moving up in the chain, if you

535
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,880
will.

536
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,400
Well, I guess especially back then, if you have a lot of experience, experience equals

537
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,400
to some extent, almost kind of like a degree at certain points in time.

538
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,160
And so I think that that's also something to consider.

539
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,160
Yeah.

540
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,160
That's interesting.

541
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,800
So you think it's more like coworkers that are saying, well, you dropped a piece of paper

542
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,800
and he's like, so and so is just unbearable.

543
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,760
Yeah, I think he's kind of like, he doesn't like to stay in the same place very often.

544
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,160
He wants the next best thing.

545
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,320
So again, he would enlist the help of his mom to cover the down payment on the home.

546
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,640
Alma would agree on one condition.

547
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,520
She be allowed to live in the home as well.

548
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:08,520
I mean, they got 19 rooms.

549
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,120
It's not like they don't have space.

550
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:11,120
Yeah.

551
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:13,720
Put her in the mother-in-law suite in the backyard.

552
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:14,720
Yep.

553
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,320
She was actually in the upstairs apartment.

554
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,320
Okay.

555
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,560
They lived when he was a kid.

556
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,040
So he gave her that whole upstairs apartment.

557
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,040
She lived there by herself.

558
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,280
It was like three stories up.

559
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,280
It was the same house?

560
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,280
No, no, no.

561
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:25,280
The same setup.

562
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,280
Oh, okay.

563
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,280
Oh my gosh.

564
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,240
I was like, whoa.

565
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,200
Really full circle.

566
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,760
This new job of John's would not last long due to the fact that it required social skills

567
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,840
that he didn't have and the ability to pull in business that John couldn't do.

568
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,200
He didn't really have any sales bone in his body.

569
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,840
Furthermore, his colleagues around this time would describe John as extremely cold and

570
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:48,840
altogether unlikable.

571
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,560
Which is like, I'm really bad at things.

572
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,880
So mean.

573
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,120
So within the first year, John would be let go from this position.

574
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:03,120
Living in a very nice home, John would quickly find himself struggling to pay the mortgage

575
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:07,440
and utility bills, especially on top of the already expensive bills to take care of his

576
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,440
family.

577
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:09,440
Yeah.

578
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,960
I mean, they have four kids, well, one's out of the house, but three kids.

579
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,560
Three kids and a mother-in-law.

580
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,920
John decided that he was going to keep his firing to himself and he would continue to

581
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,320
get up each morning and leave the home, leaving Helen to believe he was going to work every

582
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,320
day.

583
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,320
He did not.

584
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,320
That's foul.

585
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:27,320
Why would you do that?

586
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,440
Because that's like one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life.

587
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:38,440
That's wild to just lie to someone about what you did with your day.

588
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,600
Just put on your uniform and just straight up lie about your day.

589
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:47,240
It's weird to me because it's like, okay, in this instance, I'm not going to say it

590
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,920
makes sense, but he's trying to fain that he has money, right?

591
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,560
But also how are you going to actually get money?

592
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,320
You can only pretend that you're going to work for so long and then she's going to be

593
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,320
like, well, where's the bills?

594
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,320
You know what I mean?

595
00:26:58,320 --> 00:26:59,320
Where's the mortgage?

596
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:00,320
Does he become a paper boy?

597
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:01,320
I don't understand.

598
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,120
He's got to get a job.

599
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:08,640
So part of that is, yeah, not only are you just lying to your family the entire time,

600
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,240
but you have no concept of future consequences.

601
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,240
Exactly.

602
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,720
You went and started living out of your means and bought this giant house and now, you know,

603
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,360
you didn't plan for the future, bro.

604
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,360
However, when John left the home, he was actually going to the train station and he would just

605
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,200
sit there all day reading a book or the newspaper.

606
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,920
He gets on the train, leans, and we never see him again.

607
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:32,920
Bye, Sayonara.

608
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,920
He dicks over Helen with the mortgage is what he does.

609
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:37,920
That's all new, girl.

610
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:38,920
You put my name on the list.

611
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,840
I am out of here.

612
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,480
John would keep up the charade for a full six months, paying the bills from his mother's

613
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:46,480
bank account.

614
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,640
Does his mother know?

615
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,200
Since Alma had moved into the home and was getting older, John had actually taken over

616
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,040
as her financial power of attorney.

617
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,040
Oh my God.

618
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,720
However, he was not telling her how she stood financially and he was using all of her money

619
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,720
without her knowledge.

620
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:01,720
He's like, everything's great.

621
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:02,720
It's all good.

622
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:03,720
Why are you crying?

623
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,720
Why are you crying, John?

624
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:06,720
Yeah.

625
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,720
Everything's fine.

626
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,840
Everything's the life that I wanted.

627
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,640
That's sad.

628
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,320
John would eventually find another job to commute to in New York, but again, this would

629
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,680
only last for a year.

630
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,560
John would finally accept his financial state and take out a second mortgage to pay his

631
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:23,560
bills.

632
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,560
Oh, that'll fix it.

633
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:25,560
Yeah.

634
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,160
At around this time in the late 60s, Helen would be diagnosed with cerebral atrophy, a

635
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,680
degenerative brain disorder, and John would be advised to institutionalize her so that

636
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,240
she could have better assistance.

637
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:37,240
Wow, that's so sad.

638
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,040
That's probably due to the substance abuse, I would think.

639
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,920
John would refuse to do this and he would just keep Helen at the mansion.

640
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,320
He's like, no, we're not doing that.

641
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,720
But he didn't get any external help.

642
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,560
So he was like, I'm just going to find.

643
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,560
She's a shut-in now.

644
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:53,560
Yeah.

645
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,280
In an attempt to escape his reality, John began to throw himself into his hobbies.

646
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:03,080
He would read books on crime, the military, and weapons, probably at the train station.

647
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,680
It was around this time that John was noted as suggesting to his brother-in-law that it

648
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,120
would be really easy for him to just begin another life and start over.

649
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,080
He's like, you know what, screw this, I could just start over, I could just disappear.

650
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,880
He's going to hop on that train and never come back.

651
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,000
He said that, I thought that was funny.

652
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,760
John would get yet another job around this time where he would sell mutual funds from

653
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,040
his home and Helen would continue to drink heavily.

654
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,840
As for Helen and John, while John was still attending church services and overall kind

655
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,280
of well-adjusted, he and Helen were arguing frequently.

656
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,960
John would try and buy things for Helen to appease her, but this never seemed to work.

657
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,560
On top of this, John would begin sleeping in a separate bedroom altogether to avoid

658
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,440
Helen's harsh language and lash-outs.

659
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,200
John would lean towards his face and begin praying for the Lord to guide him in his current

660
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,880
situation and give him a sort of sign, but he never received one.

661
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,400
Seeing that it was the 60s, John was still under pressure to be the man of the household

662
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,880
and provide for his family.

663
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,880
On top of this, the nuclear family was expected to be happy and intact, and John was embarrassed

664
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,400
and ashamed that this was simply not the case in his household.

665
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,640
John began to resent his life and thinking that he was a failure as a man.

666
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,880
To counteract this, John would take to the children, beginning to rule over them with

667
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,800
an iron fist and forcing them to obey his rules that they believed were unfair.

668
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,280
He would say, if I can't control my wife or my mom, I'm going to control the kids.

669
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,280
At least they'll listen to me.

670
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,200
We can all look like that, at least a few of us will be happy.

671
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,200
From the outside, however, John was just a strict religious father who mowed his lawn

672
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,200
in a suit and tie.

673
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,200
No, he did not.

674
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,200
I swear.

675
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,200
No, he did not.

676
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,200
Is there a photo?

677
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:49,200
I don't know.

678
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:50,200
I actually haven't looked.

679
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,200
I need receipts.

680
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,920
Receipts or it didn't happen.

681
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,520
The couple's eldest child, Patricia, or Patty, would begin to rebel around this point.

682
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,280
Patty would be picked up by the police for walking in the streets after midnight and

683
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,280
smoking.

684
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,760
Furthermore, she had expressed desires to become an actress to her parents, and John

685
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,000
would respond to this by calling her a slut, and it was very clearly jealous that she had

686
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,040
friends and a social life outside of the home.

687
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,040
Interesting.

688
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,040
He's like, no, you slut.

689
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,040
Like, don't have friends.

690
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,840
You're going to be an actress.

691
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,720
Yeah, you know one other person.

692
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:22,720
You must be a slut.

693
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,720
Yeah.

694
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,280
Furthermore, unbeknownst to John, his young teen daughter had begun to experiment with

695
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,200
drugs and developed a keen interest in the occult.

696
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,880
It was around this time that Patty would begin to distance herself from her father, as she

697
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120
thought that he just didn't care for her.

698
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:44,800
In October of 1971, John was noted as applying for a firearms registration he noted as being

699
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,800
for a quote, home protection, end quote.

700
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,600
He does have a keen interest in guns.

701
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,200
Sure.

702
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:57,400
On November 5, 1971, John and his family sat down for their nightly dinner at home.

703
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,080
Following dinner, John grabbed all three of his children and sat them down.

704
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,440
John told his children that they must prepare to die, before asking them if they wanted to

705
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,200
be buried or cremated after their deaths.

706
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,200
What?

707
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,720
While the children were in shock, they also either thought their father was just being

708
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,880
morbid or didn't want to upset him, and they would all answer that they would rather be

709
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,400
buried.

710
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,000
It became clear quickly that the children were having a difficult time with this comment

711
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,440
by their father, and Patty would even take it upon herself to confide in her drama coach.

712
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:29,720
This is wild.

713
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,480
She would tell him that if he were to hear that her family were going on vacation anytime

714
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,160
soon, this would really mean that her father was about to murder the children.

715
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,600
Oh my gosh.

716
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,600
Heems.

717
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,480
I literally got all of them.

718
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,480
Oh my gosh.

719
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,920
All the heems.

720
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,120
The drama teacher would not take this comment seriously and just brush it off.

721
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,120
No.

722
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:52,120
Sorry.

723
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,120
We've heard that so many times.

724
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,280
Yeah, don't do that.

725
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:00,680
On November 9th, 1971, John went right up a note and placed it on the front door.

726
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,560
The note stated something along the lines of letting the milkman, newspaper guy, and

727
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,280
mailman know not to drop anything off at the home that day.

728
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,440
However, when the milkman showed up at the home, he would walk up to the door, read the

729
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,160
note, and be on his way.

730
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,080
On top of this note, John had also mailed himself a letter that contained a key to his

731
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,360
filing cabinet.

732
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,760
In the morning, John would send the children to school, watch the milkman leave the home,

733
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,120
and begin what would be a heinous attack.

734
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,400
Helen would be the first one to walk down the stairs and into the kitchen to make herself

735
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,080
something to eat.

736
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,360
John was in the office on the first floor, and upon hearing Helen enter the kitchen,

737
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,320
he would exit the office and sneak up behind her as she sat looking out the window.

738
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,760
John would raise his 1912 styron 9mm that he got in the army up to Helen's head, pull

739
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,520
the trigger, and shoot her in the jaw.

740
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,600
Helen fell forward towards the table, hitting it on her way to the floor, and died almost

741
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,400
instantly.

742
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,480
It was noted that Helen had part of the toast she was eating still in her throat when she

743
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,280
died, and this has led investigators to believe that she might have seen John coming or heard

744
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,200
him right before he shot her.

745
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,200
That's savage.

746
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,240
Following Helen being deceased, John fired several more rounds of shots into the wall

747
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:20,160
behind the table.

748
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,240
I'm not sure about the reason for this.

749
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:29,440
Well maybe because maybe he was trying to stage it as an attack or self-defense, so

750
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:37,080
if it's like, oh I just shot her in self-defense once, it doesn't really look, you know.

751
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,320
John's mother Alma was at home during this time, but she lived on the third floor of

752
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,840
the mansion in her own apartment.

753
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,440
John would make his way up three flights of stairs and reach the apartment.

754
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,000
John would open the door without knocking and surprise his mother who was in the kitchen

755
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,360
making breakfast.

756
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,440
Alma was awaiting her own toast to be ready, and when John barged in, she asked him what

757
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,200
all the noise was that she had just heard downstairs.

758
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,760
John would not respond to his mother, and instead immediately shoot her point blank

759
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:13,040
in her left eye, then shot twice more into the wall behind her.

760
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,600
Another source stated that John may have missed his mother the first time, which is why he

761
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,320
shot again, but he did hit her at least once and killed her.

762
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,120
John was originally planning on taking his mother downstairs, but she was too heavy for

763
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:30,000
him to lift, so he would ultimately push her body onto a carpet runner and drag her into

764
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,840
a nearby closet.

765
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:38,960
During this, John would head back downstairs and move Helen's body into a downstairs bathroom.

766
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:57,280
The movement of Helen's deceased body was noted as leaving a 40 foot trail of blood.

767
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,440
John then took three sleeping bags and opened two of them up next to each other and placed

768
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,240
Helen's body on the third.

769
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:09,400
John would cover her body with a bath towel, also placing a kitchen towel on her head.

770
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,360
John would do his best to clean up the blood from both murders, and at this point, he realized

771
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,920
that his own clothes were soaked in blood.

772
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,960
John made his way into Helen's bedroom, which he was not staying in at the moment, and sat

773
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,920
down on her bed, wiping his hands off on the blanket.

774
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:29,920
He then ran into the bathroom and vomited, leaving a bloody handprint on the toilet lid.

775
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,360
During this, John would shower and change into a suit and tie, leaving his soiled clothes

776
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,240
and shoes in the bathroom.

777
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,680
He would then call his boss to leave him a message that he would not be able to attend

778
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,200
the scheduled meeting he had with him.

779
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,800
He explained that he was going to be taking his family to North Carolina to see Helen's

780
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,560
mother, who was very ill.

781
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,280
Dang, the daughter called it!

782
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,360
Yep, Helen's mother was indeed ill at this time, but she was actually planning on being

783
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,440
with the Lists that week on a trip. Due to her being sick, she couldn't make it, and

784
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,760
this may have prevented her from becoming a victim as well.

785
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,160
John would then write notes to the children's schools and places of employment with the

786
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,520
same message.

787
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,040
John would hang out at the home, doing casual chores for many hours as he awaited the children's

788
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,120
return from school.

789
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,200
He then went out in his yard, in his suit and tie, to rake leaves.

790
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,240
What? There's no way this man does this.

791
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,160
Well, that's what it says.

792
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,240
A neighbor of his saw him, but John pretended not to see her.

793
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:34,640
He would then go back inside and make some lunch for himself.

794
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:35,640
Lunch?

795
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,760
I'm sorry, lunch?

796
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:38,760
Casual sammion chips.

797
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,600
When his wife and mother laid dead in that house.

798
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,680
Then the phone rang.

799
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,200
It was Patty.

800
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,720
She had called the family home, stating that she was not feeling well and wanted John to

801
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:53,240
come pick her up from school so that she could come home.

802
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,240
Oh no.

803
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,760
A slightly annoyed John would agree and go pick up his daughter.

804
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,880
He was slightly annoyed because this wasn't part of his plan.

805
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,400
And he's slightly annoyed because anything that has to do with his children.

806
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,800
Like you said, he has very methodically planned this out.

807
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,160
This was not part of the plan to bring her home early.

808
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,160
You're right.

809
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,840
But that makes me think she wasn't feeling well.

810
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,760
I wonder if she had a gut feeling.

811
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,400
After her mom and grandmother had been killed.

812
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,960
You know how some people have that intuition?

813
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,120
When Ma died, I had woken up.

814
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,840
I was actually at a friend's house.

815
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,840
I had snuck out at age 15, 16 years old.

816
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,200
I had done this regularly where I went over to a friend's house and played video games.

817
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,800
And all of a sudden I started feeling like really sick at like 2.30 in the morning, maybe

818
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,800
3.

819
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,160
So I asked him if he could drive me home.

820
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,520
And it was literally within 30, 40 minutes of that that our mother got a phone call that

821
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,960
our grandmother had passed away.

822
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:50,960
Yeah.

823
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,880
So again, John went to pick up Patty from school.

824
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:01,000
And once the two were back home, John would hurry past Patty and into the home.

825
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,080
Once inside, he crouched behind a door and waited for his daughter to enter.

826
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,600
Oh my god, this is awful.

827
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,640
As Patty entered the home, John would jump up and shoot her at close range in the back

828
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,400
of her head.

829
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,360
Patty would fall forward and die as she hit the floor.

830
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,200
John then dragged her body and placed it into one of the open sleeping bags.

831
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,600
After cleaning himself up once again, John went out to run some errands.

832
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,360
Oh my, this man.

833
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,880
If you can call him that.

834
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,760
This included gathering up however much money he was able to get and mailing the letters

835
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,800
that he had written.

836
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,880
He would run into some people around town that he knew while he was out.

837
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,400
And these people would later state that his face was red and blotchy and he seemed kind

838
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,640
of nervous, but they just kind of brushed it off.

839
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,680
Red and blotchy like blood.

840
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:47,680
I don't know.

841
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,520
I feel like it's a little bit of like embarrassment, kind of like a flush, you know, like kind

842
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,520
of like, but yeah, maybe blood.

843
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,680
Like he knows he's creating an alibi.

844
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:58,680
An alibi.

845
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,680
Yeah.

846
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,680
Later that afternoon, John would go pick up his youngest son Fred from his after school

847
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,480
job.

848
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,160
Once again, he would hurry into the house before his son and await him entering the home.

849
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,840
This is brutal.

850
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,080
Fred did not even have time to remove his coat before being shot in the head once,

851
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,280
constantly dying.

852
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,000
John would take Fred's body and place it beside his mother's.

853
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,760
The remaining child, John Jr. was at soccer practice at this time and he was not expected

854
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,600
home until later.

855
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,080
From this point on, I'm going to refer to John as John Sr. and then his son as John

856
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,080
Jr.

857
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,080
Hmm.

858
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,920
John Sr. would get ready to leave to pick up his son, but as he was exiting the home,

859
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,560
he saw John Jr. coming up the driveway, arriving home much earlier than anticipated.

860
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:44,960
Not part of his plan.

861
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,440
John Sr. would quickly go back inside and hide.

862
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,280
John Jr. would enter the home through the laundry room and come upon his father pointing

863
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,160
a gun at him.

864
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,960
John Jr. would reach forward and grab his father's hand, the gun being shot in the

865
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,600
process.

866
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,360
The bullet would go into the ceiling and the two began struggling over the gun.

867
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,600
Two more shots would be fired into the floor, another would hit the cabinet, and a fifth

868
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,200
would hit the dining room window frame.

869
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,960
John Jr. would continue to dodge any shots fired at him.

870
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:20,000
However, as he was trying to get away, a bullet would be fired into his back, then another

871
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,080
on the back of his neck, and a third would hit him in the head.

872
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,880
John Jr. would fall to the floor, breaking his jaw in the process.

873
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,560
John Sr. would fire once again at his son, but the boy was still alive at this point.

874
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,720
Oh my god, this is so terrible.

875
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:41,000
John Sr. would grab a second gun at this point and begin firing multiple rounds, not

876
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,520
even caring about the amount of noise he was making.

877
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,720
As he was continuing to be shot at, John Jr. would begin crawling across the floor in order

878
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:51,600
to avoid the bullets.

879
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,800
He would turn himself over at one point, and he was met with another shot straight to his

880
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:56,800
eye.

881
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,880
Still, John Jr. was alive, and his father would shoot him once again.

882
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,560
All in all, John Jr. would suffer 10 bullet wounds and would ultimately die at the scene.

883
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:08,920
Oh my god.

884
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,560
A poor kid.

885
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,280
Just horrendous, lost few moments.

886
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,480
He did everything he possibly could.

887
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,240
This is your father.

888
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:24,000
The father is like, I'm gonna stop at nothing to kill you.

889
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,840
Just bloodlust.

890
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,680
John would drag his eldest son into the area where the other family members were and covered

891
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,320
each one of their faces with towels.

892
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,480
He would then kneel down and pray over their bodies, willing their souls to be at peace.

893
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,040
Yeah, okay.

894
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,040
Yeah, he's a good guy.

895
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,600
As John was getting ready to leave the home, the doorbell rang.

896
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,760
It was the mailman coming to deliver the letter that John had mailed to himself.

897
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:49,760
What?

898
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,760
He went into town to mail it, but he lives down the street, so the mailman was like,

899
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:53,760
oh, this is right here.

900
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,400
Let's bring it back.

901
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:01,720
Getting no answer, the mailman would slip the letter into the door and be on his way.

902
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:07,320
Still at the home, that evening, John would call his pastor, Reverend Rae Winkle, and relate

903
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,840
to him the plans to head to North Carolina with the family.

904
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,520
He also stated that because he was going to be out of town, he would not be able to teach

905
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:17,520
Sunday school that weekend like he had planned.

906
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,960
Oh, he's such a good guy.

907
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:25,600
Then John called Patti's drama coach and told him the plan to leave town.

908
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:30,080
At this point, John would sit down at the table and begin to write another letter.

909
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,640
This time, it was to his pastor.

910
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:39,120
The letter was entitled, quote, a few words from John E. List, career builder, end quote.

911
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,960
I couldn't find the whole note, but I will relay the pieces that I found.

912
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:48,720
Quote, dear pastor Rae Winkle, I am very sorry to add this additional burden to your work,

913
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:50,360
end quote.

914
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,120
After explaining what he had done, John stated other things such as, quote, I leave myself

915
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,840
in the hands of God's justice and mercy.

916
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,400
This makes me think that perhaps it was for the best as far as the children's souls are

917
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:02,760
concerned.

918
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,000
After it was all over, I said some prayers for them all from the hymn book.

919
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,600
That was the least I could do.

920
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,480
I know that many will only look at the additional years that they could have lived, but if I

921
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,880
finally, there were no longer Christians, what would be gained?

922
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,560
I think that was a misinterpreted when it was translated.

923
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:26,660
Quote, also, I'm sure many will say, how could anyone do such a horrible thing?

924
00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:32,160
My only answer is it isn't easy and was only done after much thought, end quote.

925
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,200
So he's not doing a self-defense angle like I said.

926
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:36,200
Yeah.

927
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,520
He's not, they're going to heaven.

928
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:38,520
Yeah.

929
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,280
I did this for their souls, which is really interesting because-

930
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,960
Where's these Andrea Yates?

931
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:44,960
Exactly.

932
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:51,080
Yeah, Andrea Yates, who, you know, committed this, committed the act of killing her children

933
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,480
because she thought that she was saving their souls.

934
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:59,680
We haven't, other than John's association with the church, we really haven't seen him

935
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,000
kind of geared towards this kind of religious fanatic.

936
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,120
Yeah, but I think it went a lot deeper than what it says.

937
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,720
And him and his mom had that relationship with their religion.

938
00:45:09,720 --> 00:45:11,480
His parents were really devoutly religious.

939
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,840
They wanted him to follow in the footsteps of their community work with the church.

940
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:21,120
I think that he might have been way more involved in it than we are seeing from the research.

941
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,960
It's maybe a sense of identity.

942
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:23,960
Yeah.

943
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,960
Hmm.

944
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:32,200
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945
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946
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947
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,880
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948
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949
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950
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951
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,640
John would continue in the note and state that he shot his Taylor members from behind

952
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,720
because he, quote, didn't want any of them to know even at the last second that I had

953
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,480
to do this to them, end quote.

954
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,480
But your son.

955
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,480
Yeah.

956
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,040
He then stated about having to also kill his mother because it, quote, would have been

957
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,640
a tremendous shock to her, end quote.

958
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,400
I can see that, like it would kill her anyways.

959
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,600
Yeah, or she would have turned him in probably.

960
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,240
John finishes the letter by talking about how he was upset that Helen stopped going

961
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:30,800
to church and the fact that she had talked about leaving the church altogether.

962
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,800
He stated about this, quote, if any one of these had been the condition, we might have

963
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,440
pulled through this, but it was just too much.

964
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,320
At least I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now, end quote.

965
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,800
He signed the letter, John, and then included, quote, P.S., mother is in the hallway in the

966
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,520
attic third floor.

967
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,320
She was too heavy to move, end quote.

968
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,800
Oh, my, heath.

969
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,080
If the rest of the letter didn't make you convince that he's just cold-blooded, that

970
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,960
tells me, I'm like, okay, that was super nonchalant.

971
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,120
Yeah, by the way.

972
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:09,520
By the way, in case you're looking for what you might be, because you walked in upon this

973
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:10,520
scene.

974
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:11,520
I'm telling you now.

975
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:12,520
Just letting you know.

976
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:13,520
If you choose.

977
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,520
Yeah.

978
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,520
Choose upstairs in the closet.

979
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:17,520
Right.

980
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,800
It's like, okay, thanks for that fricking information.

981
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:20,800
Great.

982
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,200
Among other things in the five page letter, John had asked that his family be buried

983
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,680
altogether, and he felt sure that God would forgive him.

984
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,280
After writing this letter, John would make himself dinner and lay down to take a little

985
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:34,280
nap.

986
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,640
In the house?

987
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,960
He would sleep for hours and he woke up around dusk, like right when the sun was setting.

988
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,120
I mean, I guess it's a big enough house.

989
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:44,760
Yeah, but still.

990
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:49,600
Upon waking up, John would set the thermostat to 50 degrees, turned on every single light

991
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,400
in the rooms of the home, and put music on over the intercom speakers.

992
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,800
I think it was classical.

993
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,000
John would pack up some essentials and leave the home, but not before cutting himself out

994
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,000
of all the family photos in the home.

995
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,000
What?

996
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:09,120
I don't know if that was like, he's doing that himself as like a way to like, I'm cutting

997
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,960
myself out of their lives because I did this, or he was trying to cover his tracks maybe,

998
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,280
and he didn't want photos of him in the house because it would be harder to determine like

999
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,560
who it was that they were looking for.

1000
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:19,560
Hmm.

1001
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,200
I don't know what that came from.

1002
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:22,200
Yeah.

1003
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,480
I mean, that's an interesting theory that they wouldn't be able to identify specifically

1004
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,200
who he was and-

1005
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,320
Or circulate multiple different photos of him.

1006
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:30,320
Of him.

1007
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:31,320
Exactly.

1008
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,640
And he was looking for the key on essentially eyewitness testimony from friends and family.

1009
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:35,640
Yeah.

1010
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,840
Also, that letter that he wrote, he left at the house as well for the police to find.

1011
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,480
Well, he was wanting the pastor to be the only one to see it, but he left it at the house.

1012
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,320
He didn't mail it like he did everything else.

1013
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,360
But the mail- sorry, the mailman dropped off the house key?

1014
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,960
He had a key to a filing cabinet that he mailed to himself.

1015
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,000
I didn't read anything else about that.

1016
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:55,800
I don't know why he did that.

1017
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:56,800
I couldn't find out.

1018
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,920
I mean, I probably could have like dug a little deeper to find out, but it didn't- it

1019
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:01,480
didn't like pan out to anything.

1020
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:02,480
Interesting.

1021
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,160
Maybe it was a filing cabinet elsewhere, like at his office or something that he needed.

1022
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:07,160
Fair.

1023
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,840
So John left the house and planned on starting a new life, like he said would be so easy

1024
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:12,840
to do.

1025
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,160
I just don't understand.

1026
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:21,280
You murder your entire family because you were trying to save them from a religious standpoint?

1027
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,960
Or you felt like you had no other choice?

1028
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:25,680
Or was it to start a new life?

1029
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,080
Because I feel like this is all conflicting emotions.

1030
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,840
And he was saying- well, you know, he was saying with his- I think in his mind, like

1031
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,160
my financial burdens, like this is too much.

1032
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,880
Like I can't keep up this lifestyle anymore.

1033
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,160
They're gonna suffer anyway.

1034
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,520
Not excusing it, I'm just thinking what he might have been thinking.

1035
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:42,520
Right.

1036
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:47,160
But yeah, so he hopped a train and that's the end of the story.

1037
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:48,400
You're funny.

1038
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:54,040
Patty's drama coach becoming worried that what Patty said may have actually happened

1039
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,320
would drive past the home later that evening.

1040
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,760
But seeing all the lights on, he figured everything was fine and he went home.

1041
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:00,760
Fair.

1042
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,360
That's probably why you did it, but fair.

1043
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,080
With all of the people in their lives thinking that they just left town for a while, nobody

1044
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,000
really thought anything was wrong with the List family.

1045
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,680
In fact, weeks would go by with nobody being the wiser that there were several bodies in

1046
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:14,680
the List home.

1047
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:15,880
Oh my god.

1048
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,680
And it would not be until the church, schools, and extended family members got weary that

1049
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,200
there would be any question as to what had happened.

1050
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,080
It wasn't until neighbors noticed no change in the home for a while and the drama teacher

1051
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,840
bugged officials enough that they phoned police to do a wellness check.

1052
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:37,840
When police arrived on December 7th, 1971, nearly a month after the murders, they were

1053
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,360
horrified by what they discovered.

1054
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:40,880
Yeah, I bet.

1055
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,200
Nearly a month, almost to the day, like two days shy of a month.

1056
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,640
I will say he did turn down the thermostat, which is interesting.

1057
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,520
Well, he probably wanted to maintain the crime scene so that it didn't start to be gross,

1058
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,720
but smell alert neighbors.

1059
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:56,720
Exactly.

1060
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:57,720
Preserve them.

1061
00:50:57,720 --> 00:50:58,720
Yeah.

1062
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:02,840
News quickly spread about the most violent crime that the town had ever seen, and a nationwide

1063
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,880
manhunt was quickly put into place.

1064
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:10,440
Once the letter had surfaced and it was clear that John was the main suspect in the case,

1065
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,280
officers began to believe that he would eventually turn himself in.

1066
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:14,280
Yeah, right.

1067
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,560
Meanwhile, investigators were able to come up with at least 150 pieces of incriminating

1068
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,400
evidence from the crime scene to use against John once he was in custody.

1069
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,520
But not a single photo of him.

1070
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:25,520
Yeah.

1071
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,120
They would attend the funeral services for the family, hoping that John would show up,

1072
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,080
but with no luck.

1073
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,960
The FBI would also quickly get involved with the case, and they would put up wanted signs

1074
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,040
around the area with John's photo and description.

1075
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,560
On top of these photos and info, police were also able to determine that John suffered

1076
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,920
from severe hemorrhoids and had really bad eyesight.

1077
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,880
Facts that they were not shy about sharing.

1078
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,320
This guy, if you see this man's butthole, he has hemorrhoids.

1079
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:57,640
The flyers were also sent to pharmacies and eye doctors all over the country with the

1080
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,200
hope that he would seek help from one of them along the way.

1081
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,760
Isn't that so smart though?

1082
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:02,760
That is smart.

1083
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:03,760
That's so smart.

1084
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:05,920
This guy doesn't have glasses and he can't see.

1085
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:07,360
He might come to you for help.

1086
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:08,360
That's true.

1087
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:09,880
Although his name isn't John anymore, apparently.

1088
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,360
Yeah, he's bleeding from the beehole.

1089
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,760
He might need some help.

1090
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,640
It smells like poop and blood.

1091
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,440
As investigators began to look further into John's life, they discovered that he had

1092
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,080
rented a private PO box to receive pornography subscriptions.

1093
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,160
The devil of us all, right?

1094
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:27,480
Pornography.

1095
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,320
Pretty soon it became clear to authorities that not only did John have a secret life,

1096
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,880
but he was not going to be easy to find.

1097
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:39,080
Meanwhile, after John left the home, he had traveled by train from New Jersey to Michigan

1098
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:41,560
and then to Colorado.

1099
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:47,480
Then in the beginning of 1972, a man by the name of Robert or Bob Peter Clark would find

1100
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:52,840
work in the form of a night shift cook in Denver, Colorado at a holiday inn.

1101
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:53,840
Denver.

1102
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:59,280
Nine long months went by without any information leading to John, but on August 30th, 1972,

1103
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:05,680
the Victorian mansion where the murders happened burned to the ground.

1104
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,080
While there were many kids in and out of the home to vandalize it after the crimes, the

1105
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,880
cause of this fire was indeed arson.

1106
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:17,120
However, this crime would never be solved due to insufficient evidence, and a new house

1107
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,920
would be built on the property in 1974.

1108
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:20,920
Interesting.

1109
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:26,840
Back to 1972, so this is about a year after the murders, John would be proposed as a possible

1110
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:32,360
suspect in the D.B. Cooper air piracy due to the fact that he disappeared two weeks prior

1111
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:38,280
to the airline hijacking, and he shared multiple characteristics with the hijackers' description.

1112
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:39,640
He had a hat and glasses on.

1113
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,640
Yeah, it didn't pan out.

1114
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:47,400
Back in Colorado, Bob Clark had transitioned from line cook to a place called the Pinery

1115
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,040
and would quickly become assistant manager and accountant.

1116
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,240
Oh wow, that sounds familiar.

1117
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:56,880
Bob would be successful in this company for a number of years, and in 1975, he would join

1118
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,640
a local church looking for a good community to involve himself in.

1119
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,600
Interesting, possibly looking for a wife.

1120
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,560
Again, this is four years after the murders.

1121
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:06,680
Oh my gosh.

1122
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:11,560
The following year, a once broke, lonely Bob Clark was now finding himself being able to

1123
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:16,960
afford a car and finally got a driver's license he had been wanting for years.

1124
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,520
Now with a vehicle, Bob would volunteer to drive members of his church where they needed

1125
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,720
to go and would even become part of the church's finance council.

1126
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,120
Wow, you're telling me Bob knows things about finances.

1127
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:27,760
Yeah, isn't that interesting.

1128
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:28,760
So wild.

1129
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,360
This is the first time I'm hearing of this.

1130
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:38,040
Bob would meet a divorcee by the name of Dolores Miller around the late 70s at a singles social.

1131
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,440
In order to appease to her likings, Bob would agree to take square dancing lessons and treated

1132
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,920
Dolores very well.

1133
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:49,480
When Dolores inquired as to Bob's past relationships, he would share with her that he was a widower

1134
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,720
since his wife had died of cancer, but he never showed her a photo of his wife as it

1135
00:54:53,720 --> 00:54:57,120
was a really sore subject for him.

1136
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:02,560
The two would date for a number of years and they would tie the knot in 1985.

1137
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,400
Fourteen years after the murders.

1138
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,200
Shortly after the marriage, Bob would be fired from his job for failing to keep up with company

1139
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:14,100
changes and he was also asked to leave his role as a Sunday school teacher due to his

1140
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:15,640
domineering approach.

1141
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:16,640
Interesting.

1142
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,800
Was this after he purchased a 20 room mansion?

1143
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,600
I don't think he did that yet.

1144
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:22,600
Okay.

1145
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,080
He can't knot though.

1146
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:25,080
Right.

1147
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:26,080
It's in his nature.

1148
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:29,360
At this point, Bob would attempt to become an independent financial consultant, but this

1149
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,800
would also fall through.

1150
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,560
At the age of 55, Bob was having trouble finding work and Dolores would begin to regret sharing

1151
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,200
her life with him as he was beginning to be unsuccessful.

1152
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:41,400
Interesting.

1153
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:45,440
Around this time, while Bob was spending a lot of time at home, he began having frequent

1154
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,400
conversations with his neighbor, Wanda Flannery.

1155
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,320
Wanda was known as being very interested in tabloids and would come home with several

1156
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:55,800
a week for entertainment.

1157
00:55:55,800 --> 00:56:00,920
One day in February of 1987, Wanda came home with a new addition and spotted an article

1158
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:06,320
about a man named John List who had murdered his entire family 16 years prior and had gotten

1159
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,040
away with it.

1160
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:13,520
Immediately, Wanda noticed that this man looked remarkably similar to her neighbor Bob.

1161
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,000
I couldn't possibly be Bob though.

1162
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,280
As she was reading, she glanced up from the paper and looked towards her neighbor's home

1163
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,600
where Bob was standing looking back at her.

1164
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:24,600
I couldn't say it.

1165
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:25,600
Oh my God.

1166
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:30,720
I literally couldn't even say that without like, oh that's so creepy.

1167
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:32,240
He was staring at her through the window.

1168
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:34,920
I thought you were going to say he was mowing the lawn in a suit.

1169
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,160
Staring at her in a suit and tie.

1170
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:38,880
In a suit and tie.

1171
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,240
But yeah, I think like they were, the way that I read it, it made it seem like they

1172
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:45,400
were both like on their front porches and she like just happened to look up and he's

1173
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,760
like just, oh my God.

1174
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,280
He knew he was in that magazine and he saw the cover.

1175
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:51,280
Right.

1176
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:52,520
He saw his self from afar.

1177
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,840
Does she know it's me?

1178
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,080
As she kept reading, Wanda noticed that the little details that were included about John

1179
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,160
were the same as the little things about Bob.

1180
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,000
Bob had a scar from a procedure that John had had.

1181
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,960
They both had money problems and were very religious.

1182
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:12,280
They both worked in the same field of work and they were both from Michigan.

1183
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:16,840
Wanda began to wonder if she should tell Dolores about her suspicions as she thought that surely

1184
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,560
Dolores knows things about Bob and would make it clear that he wasn't John.

1185
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:21,560
Right.

1186
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:22,560
She's like, okay, she's going to tell me that I'm crazy.

1187
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:23,800
I've met his family.

1188
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:24,800
I've met his mother.

1189
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:26,880
I've met his, you know, whatever.

1190
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,280
At least I know what the ex-wife looks like.

1191
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:34,800
When Bob left the home for work at a temporary job one day, Wanda brought the paper over

1192
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:40,800
to Dolores's home and she urged Dolores to show it to Bob in order to gauge his reaction.

1193
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,160
Dolores agreed that she would, but she ultimately would throw the paper away once Wanda left.

1194
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:46,960
Well, who wants to do that?

1195
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:47,960
Are you this murderer?

1196
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:48,960
Yeah.

1197
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:49,960
Then you know that you're- At large murder.

1198
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:50,960
At large murder.

1199
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:56,440
He's not afraid to murder his wife and most wanted.

1200
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:57,440
Most wanted.

1201
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:58,560
Are you this man?

1202
00:57:58,560 --> 00:57:59,560
Are you most wanted?

1203
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:00,560
Oh my gosh.

1204
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:01,560
Yeah.

1205
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:02,560
Totally.

1206
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:03,560
That sounds like a smart decision.

1207
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,880
So Wanda wouldn't push the issue following this.

1208
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:06,880
She didn't follow up.

1209
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:07,880
She's like, you know what?

1210
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,600
I told her, that's fine.

1211
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:14,520
Shortly after this, Bob would find work in Richmond, Virginia and he and Dolores would

1212
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,080
pack up and move east.

1213
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:17,080
Oh gosh.

1214
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:21,280
Meanwhile, the investigation was not really revealing anything new.

1215
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,480
At one point there was a psychic that was brought in and while there were certain things

1216
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,240
that would later make sense, it didn't really lead to much.

1217
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:33,200
In 1988, Fox would air a television show about fugitives from serious crimes that were still

1218
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:36,000
at large, entitled America's Most Wanted.

1219
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:37,000
Yes.

1220
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,000
Yes, yes, yes.

1221
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,480
I love John Walsh.

1222
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,480
I am obsessed.

1223
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:46,560
So for those who don't know, John Walsh's son, Adam was actually kidnapped out of a

1224
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:52,360
grocery store when he was like six, I want to say, five or six.

1225
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:56,440
And here in the States, we have something called a code, Adam, at our grocery stores,

1226
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:00,680
which means somebody calls a code, Adam, you immediately lock the front doors.

1227
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,240
There is no in and out.

1228
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,840
Every person that works at the establishment is supposed to guard the doors until that

1229
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,440
child is found.

1230
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:13,200
He was snatched out of a grocery store when his mother wasn't looking and he was murdered.

1231
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:14,200
Yeah.

1232
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:15,200
It's horrible.

1233
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:21,320
But John Walsh, excuse me, John Walsh went on to become the host of America's Most Wanted.

1234
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,480
Yes, he does a lot of advocacy work, for sure.

1235
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,680
I'm hoping to meet him one day at CrimeCon.

1236
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:27,680
That would be incredible.

1237
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:29,320
I think he was there this year.

1238
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,320
That'd be an honor.

1239
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:35,240
Jeffrey Paul Hummel, the detective assigned to the case, had been working tirelessly

1240
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,080
until he got transferred to Narconix.

1241
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,800
He would still be asked to be updated on the case following his transfer, but he wouldn't

1242
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,360
really hear much as the years went on.

1243
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,720
One day, he would catch a glimpse of America's Most Wanted and reach out to Captain Frank

1244
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,840
Moronka in order to try to get the case on the show.

1245
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,720
When the case of John Liss was brought to the show, it was originally turned down as

1246
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,360
it was quote, too old, and quote.

1247
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,560
Which is like, yeah, that's why.

1248
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:02,560
It's a cold case.

1249
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:03,560
Hello, like help us.

1250
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,480
I think they did an unsolved mysteries on this one too, didn't they?

1251
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:07,480
Maybe.

1252
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:08,480
Oh, on this case?

1253
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:09,480
Yeah.

1254
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,480
Oh, I'm not sure.

1255
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:11,480
Probably around the time.

1256
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,840
However, the executive producer was scheduled to speak at a law enforcement conference,

1257
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:20,040
and Captain Moronka would go to the conference as well, taking the list files with him.

1258
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,440
He's like, okay, maybe I'll reach him here.

1259
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,720
The producer thought that the 17-year-old case was interesting and recognized that all

1260
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,000
of the potential witnesses were still alive.

1261
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,320
Well, yeah, that would make for a great episode.

1262
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:33,960
There was only one problem.

1263
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,280
Nobody had a recent photo of John.

1264
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:42,440
The producer of America's Most Wanted actually knew a guy by the name of Frank Bender, who

1265
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:47,560
was a sculptor and photographer, and he was able to use clay to reconstruct what John's

1266
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:50,280
face must have looked like so many years later.

1267
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:51,280
Wow.

1268
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:52,680
Isn't that so cool that you can do that?

1269
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:53,680
I love that.

1270
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:54,680
Yeah, absolutely.

1271
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,920
This is before computer animation.

1272
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:03,800
Of course, we have things like police sketch artists, but to really visualize what someone's

1273
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:08,360
face would look like 3D in clay, especially for the time.

1274
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:09,360
Totally wild.

1275
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:10,860
Yeah, impressive.

1276
01:01:10,860 --> 01:01:15,280
On top of this, forensic psychologists were brought in to determine how John's personality

1277
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,520
may have developed or changed with age so that they could relate it.

1278
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,480
He might be casual.

1279
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:25,200
He might be this, different than what they're saying he was during the crime.

1280
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:26,200
He might have a mustache.

1281
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:27,200
He might not.

1282
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:28,200
He might have glasses.

1283
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,200
He might not.

1284
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:30,200
Is he bald?

1285
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:31,200
Is he not?

1286
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:32,200
Right.

1287
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:37,400
The first wanted episode of John aired on May 21st, 1989, with John Walsh introducing

1288
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,640
the segment as New Jersey's most famous murder case.

1289
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:46,760
The story ran for just 10 minutes with an estimated 22 million viewers.

1290
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:47,760
Yeah.

1291
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,560
America's most wanted was hot at the time.

1292
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,800
Everybody watched that every, whatever it was, Saturday night.

1293
01:01:54,800 --> 01:02:00,040
The funny thing is, Bob and Dolores would actually frequently watch the show themselves.

1294
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,440
But the night that it aired, they were at a church social, so they missed it.

1295
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,280
This is before DVR.

1296
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:07,280
Yeah.

1297
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:10,080
So he would have seen himself on the TV.

1298
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:11,720
Could you imagine being Dolores?

1299
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:12,720
Yeah.

1300
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:14,720
Just be like, oh, that looks like you.

1301
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:19,920
Not only were you in one article in a magazine, but now the entirety of America is looking

1302
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,320
at someone who looks like you.

1303
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,320
Yeah.

1304
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,520
Wanda Flannery was watching that night, however.

1305
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:31,120
But to her, the reconstructed sculpture didn't really resemble her old neighbor, Bob.

1306
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,080
Regardless, she felt the need to come forward.

1307
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:38,560
She had her son-in-law call the phone number on the TV and gave them the info, along with

1308
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,840
Bob and Dolores's new address in Virginia.

1309
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:42,960
Interesting.

1310
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,720
On top of this, over 300 calls came into the hotline that evening.

1311
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,960
A lot of people were like, yo.

1312
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:49,960
Check this guy out.

1313
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:55,000
On June 1st, 1989, two FBI agents went to check out leads that they had received from the

1314
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:56,480
show.

1315
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,000
Bob and Dolores's home was first on the list.

1316
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:04,920
Agent Kevin August approached the door, knocked, and a woman would answer the door.

1317
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:09,120
Agent August simply stated the name Bob Clark in the form of a question to which Dolores

1318
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:20,560
replied, he's at work.

1319
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:24,160
She's a weird hawk eye.

1320
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,680
The two agents would explain why they were there, and she would allow them to come in

1321
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,720
to show her some photos.

1322
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:34,680
Dolores was notably pale and began to tremble as she read the files.

1323
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:39,600
She admitted that there was some resemblance, but denied that it could be her husband.

1324
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:44,520
Then she began to cry, and as the conversation continued, the pieces became clear.

1325
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:47,280
Bob Clark was John List.

1326
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,240
No one saw that one coming.

1327
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,880
One agent would stay at the home, while the other headed to Bob's place of work, phoning

1328
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,440
two other agents on the way.

1329
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:59,720
The agents entered the office and saw Bob Clark, who seemed unsurprised that they were

1330
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:00,720
there.

1331
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,240
They proceeded to ask Bob several questions about his identity, which he answered correctly,

1332
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:10,880
and then he was asked if he was John List, to which he responded, no.

1333
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,440
They noted that he responded so quickly like he was expecting the question.

1334
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:15,440
Right.

1335
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:16,440
Oh, are you John List?

1336
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:17,440
Nope.

1337
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:18,440
No, I'm not.

1338
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:19,440
Don't know who that is.

1339
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:20,440
Never heard of him before in my life.

1340
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:21,440
Right, exactly.

1341
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:25,320
They began searching Bob's person, and then they asked, quote, you're John List, aren't

1342
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:26,320
you?

1343
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:29,640
And, quote, he told them once again that he was Robert Clark.

1344
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,520
He would be taken into custody without incident and allowed all of the booking processes,

1345
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:38,240
such as fingerprinting, DNA, et cetera, whatever they had back then.

1346
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:42,400
Fingerprints were able to correctly identify the man as being John List, the perpetrator

1347
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,920
of five murders committed 18 years prior.

1348
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,120
That's absolutely wild.

1349
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:49,120
Imagine being those officers.

1350
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,400
You're like, oh my gosh, like we actually got him.

1351
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:55,480
Well, and then what luck that it happened to be the first place they checked out.

1352
01:04:55,480 --> 01:05:02,000
And thankfully they didn't just take Dolores's word for it and just be like, oh, is your

1353
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,240
husband John List?

1354
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:04,240
No.

1355
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:05,240
Okay, have a nice day, ma'am.

1356
01:05:05,240 --> 01:05:10,280
Or who knows, if he was there, he could have tried to attack them, like shoot them or harm

1357
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:11,280
them or flee or something.

1358
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:12,280
Right.

1359
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:13,280
It could have been deadly for a lot of people.

1360
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:16,720
Well, and even her, they leave her alone and then she confronts him later that night

1361
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,920
about his true identity and she ends up murdered.

1362
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:20,920
Right.

1363
01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:25,560
And the trial actually, Dolores would continue to insist that her husband was not John List.

1364
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,200
Even though she had seen all the evidence, she was still undeniable.

1365
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:29,200
Yeah.

1366
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:30,360
Nobody wants to believe that.

1367
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:31,360
Right.

1368
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,800
John would plead not guilty on the charges of five counts of first degree murder and

1369
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,800
his bail would be set at $1 million while he awaited extradition to New Jersey.

1370
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,240
Gosh, this guy got away with it for 18 years.

1371
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,280
You think you're scot-free for the rest of your life that way?

1372
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:46,600
Shit, that's a long time.

1373
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:47,600
That's a long time.

1374
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:52,280
Surprisingly, John would agree to be extradited but would not agree to be referred to as John

1375
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:53,280
List.

1376
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:54,800
He wanted to be called Robert Clark.

1377
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:55,800
Okay.

1378
01:05:55,800 --> 01:06:00,640
By the end of June, Bob John was back in New Jersey for the first time since 1971.

1379
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:02,000
Bob John.

1380
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:06,600
His court-appointed attorney, Elijah Miller, argued that the compilation of John's financial

1381
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:11,320
issues, marital issues, problems with his mother and daughter, and more, were the factors

1382
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,960
that led him to doing what he thought was right.

1383
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,560
He further suggested that since Helen was already very sick, John thought he was going

1384
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,680
to give her mercy by allowing her soul to reach heaven.

1385
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:23,720
Obviously, not a really good defense, but pretty much all he has.

1386
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:25,680
It's not a great defense.

1387
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:31,520
If it is just the mother, then why not his mother and the kids as well?

1388
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:34,040
I mean, that doesn't make any sense.

1389
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:39,480
A court-appointed psychiatrist testified that John suffered from obsessive-compulsive personality

1390
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:40,480
disorder.

1391
01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:41,480
Oh, hi.

1392
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:42,480
Hi.

1393
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:43,480
Looking in the mirror?

1394
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,400
What you got going on in there, huh?

1395
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:51,120
And due to this personality disorder, he only saw two solutions to his situation, except

1396
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,000
welfare or kill his family.

1397
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,000
Well, I mean, he's not going to accept charity.

1398
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:57,000
Yeah.

1399
01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:58,000
That's beneath him.

1400
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,240
He owns a 19 room mansion.

1401
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:06,480
And they thought that he essentially was too proud to accept welfare and admit that he

1402
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,800
was failing financially and needed some assistance.

1403
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:12,200
So his solution was to just kill his family.

1404
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:15,960
Again, we're looking at the lens of what years this is that he's caught.

1405
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,920
No, well, 98, 89.

1406
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:19,920
89.

1407
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:25,800
We're looking at the lens of almost the 90s, not when he perpetrated the crime.

1408
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:26,800
Exactly.

1409
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:30,720
If we were to look through the lens of when he perpetrated the crime, he would have gotten

1410
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:31,720
the electric chair.

1411
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:33,800
Nobody would have said, oh, it's because of this.

1412
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:35,880
It's because of a mental disorder.

1413
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,760
It's because of the pressure he felt.

1414
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,840
Nobody would have, no, he just would have been a monster.

1415
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:42,840
That's true.

1416
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:46,720
I didn't even realize that OCPD has been around for that long as a diagnosis.

1417
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:51,960
On April 12, 1990, John List would be convicted of five counts of first degree murder.

1418
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:56,640
At his sentencing, he denied responsibility for his actions, stating, quote, I feel that

1419
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,320
because of my mental state at the time, I was unaccountable for what happened.

1420
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:05,920
I ask all affected by this for their forgiveness, understanding their prayer, end quote.

1421
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:10,880
The judge would respond, quote, John Emil List is without remorse and without honor.

1422
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:16,040
After 18 years, five months and 22 days, it is now time for the voices of Helen, Alma,

1423
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:20,280
Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave, end quote.

1424
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:21,280
Hell yeah.

1425
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:23,000
I love when the judge like claps back.

1426
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:24,000
Hell yeah.

1427
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:29,520
The judge would then hand down five life sentences to be served consecutively.

1428
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,000
Helen's sister would also have a chance to confront John during the hearings, asking

1429
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:35,040
him why he did what he did.

1430
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:38,200
John responded, quote, because there was no other way, end quote.

1431
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:39,200
Oh my gosh.

1432
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:40,200
Yes, there was.

1433
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,160
That's such a cop out.

1434
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:46,040
Literally just pack a bag and leave if you're embarrassed.

1435
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:47,320
It's silly.

1436
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:49,160
He didn't want the trail.

1437
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:54,080
He didn't want to leave and then still have to like, quote, unquote, deal with his family.

1438
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:57,240
He wanted to just be scot-free and be like, oh cool, I can start another life.

1439
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:01,160
Yeah, pay the child support, pay alimony, and then take care of an ailing mother.

1440
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:02,160
He's selfish.

1441
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:05,860
John would file an appeal of his convictions on the grounds that his judgment had been

1442
01:09:05,860 --> 01:09:09,640
impaired by PTSD from his military service.

1443
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:13,720
He gets a diagnosis and then all of a sudden it's like, that's this crunch.

1444
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:17,440
But not all people who are diagnosed with this murder people.

1445
01:09:17,440 --> 01:09:21,480
So, I mean, it's not a loophole.

1446
01:09:21,480 --> 01:09:24,800
It's not just, yeah, oh, sorry, I meant to leave.

1447
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,320
No, that's not how it works.

1448
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:31,240
John also argued that the letter left behind at the scene, essentially his confession,

1449
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,640
was only supposed to be between him and the pastor, and that was confidential.

1450
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,480
So you couldn't use that for evidence.

1451
01:09:36,480 --> 01:09:37,480
It's not.

1452
01:09:37,480 --> 01:09:38,480
It's not confidential.

1453
01:09:38,480 --> 01:09:39,480
You murder someone.

1454
01:09:39,480 --> 01:09:40,480
You're not going to be open.

1455
01:09:40,480 --> 01:09:41,480
Yeah.

1456
01:09:41,480 --> 01:09:44,160
Both appeal requests were denied.

1457
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:49,200
In 2002, John List would eventually express a degree of remorse for his crimes, stating,

1458
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,560
quote, I wish I had never done what I did.

1459
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:57,280
I've regretted my action and prayed for forgiveness ever since, end quote.

1460
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:01,200
When John was asked why he did not just take his own life rather than taking the lives of

1461
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:05,880
his whole family, he stated that he did not do so because that would be a mortal sin and

1462
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:08,600
then he would not be able to go to heaven with his family.

1463
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,600
Okay, that's a murder.

1464
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:11,600
A mortal sin.

1465
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:12,600
Yeah.

1466
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:13,600
Times five.

1467
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:14,600
I don't.

1468
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:15,600
Yeah.

1469
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:16,600
All right.

1470
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,520
On March 21st, 2008, John Amiel List would die from complications from pneumonia at the

1471
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:22,800
age of 82.

1472
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:23,800
Too good.

1473
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:24,800
That's the whole story.

1474
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:25,800
Wow.

1475
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:26,800
Yeah.

1476
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,720
This is a very entertaining case.

1477
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:30,720
Thank you for bringing that.

1478
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:31,720
Yeah, absolutely.

1479
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:35,360
I started researching it and I was like, I didn't really know much about it.

1480
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,000
And then as I was going through it, I was like, oh my gosh.

1481
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,880
Like I found so much really good information.

1482
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,920
And I'm going to, of course, link all those sources and the show notes because I definitely

1483
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:47,880
want to give credit to the people that were super detailed when they did their research

1484
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:49,560
and it helped me do my research.

1485
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:51,760
But yeah, really, really great case.

1486
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,880
Thanks Becca for the recommendation.

1487
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,040
Hope we did it justice.

1488
01:10:56,040 --> 01:11:00,960
And yeah, OCPD, by the way, if anyone doesn't know, that is not a disorder that typically

1489
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,320
is associated with crime or any violence.

1490
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:08,760
I thought that was really interesting that he was diagnosed with that.

1491
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:11,640
And then that was what they were trying to use, especially the professionals trying to

1492
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:12,640
use that.

1493
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:14,720
But again, it was the early nineties.

1494
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:20,000
Again, I think that was a very new personality disorder that was newly developed, not newly

1495
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:22,680
developed, but newly described, I guess, in that time.

1496
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:27,200
So maybe they did think that it was like antisocial or narcissistic personality disorder.

1497
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:29,720
Yeah, similar to other personality disorders.

1498
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:36,960
And then being, as it is, like just over explaining maybe, trying to get the jury to understand

1499
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:42,720
maybe certain aspects from professionals that might not have known too much about it at

1500
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:43,720
the time.

1501
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:47,320
So blind leading the blind there, perhaps.

1502
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:54,440
So the good news is we are continuing to find advancements in not only forensic technology

1503
01:11:54,440 --> 01:11:59,080
for criminal cases, but mental health development and research and stuff like that.

1504
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:04,400
So I think it'll only get better with the accuracy of cases like this.

1505
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:10,440
And hopefully in the future we can limit cases like this with treatment early on.

1506
01:12:10,440 --> 01:12:11,440
Anything else?

1507
01:12:11,440 --> 01:12:12,440
Nope, that's it.

1508
01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:14,440
Okay, well thanks for joining us for another case.

1509
01:12:14,440 --> 01:12:15,960
We'll see you guys next week.

1510
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:17,440
Okay, love you.

1511
01:12:17,440 --> 01:12:18,440
Bye.

1512
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:28,720
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