Welcome to Dates of Our Lives, a true crime and awareness podcast.
I'm your host, Kena.
In this podcast, I meet with a new guest each episode to discuss the date that changed their
life.
These stories include, but are not limited to, missing persons cases, survivor tales,
personal tragedies, and more.
This podcast was created nearly a decade after my own personal experience.
In 2015, I lost one of my sisters, Cameron, in a truly horrific way, and I have been searching
for meaning ever since.
I truly believe each person's story is unique and extremely important to share, and I wanted
to create a safe space to make that possible.
Please join me in bringing awareness to these events and allowing space for healing, one
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You can listen to Dates of Our Lives anywhere you get your podcasts.
Dates of Our Lives is coming soon, and I can't wait to share it with you guys.
Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.
I'm Kena.
I'm Koelle.
How's it going?
Pretty good.
Pretty good, pretty good.
Not really, my nails are on fire.
I know, you had these press-ons that you- well, we both do this.
We buy press-ons because they frickin' work and they're cheap, I'm sorry, for me, and
they look like real acrylics, but we also glue them.
They're sticky, but we also use glue so that they stay longer.
Mine lasted for three weeks last time I put them on.
Three weeks?
It's just hit or miss.
And yours won't come off.
These will not come off.
I've lost only one nail, and then the rest I've been soaking in that extreme nail solution
stuff for the last hour, which can't be good for your skin.
And they still just won't come off.
I have three hanging on by a thread right now.
I can't even imagine.
My nails are so brittle, like my real ones.
I'm sorry.
That's the way I feel.
I feel like I just ripped them.
Okay, new topic.
We are going to get into this case.
I'm really excited, but first, I do have a really nice message I've been meaning to
read.
I love nice messages.
Yes, I'd like to read that.
This is from listener Kalyana.
If I mispronounce that, I apologize.
Kalyana says, hello, I've been binging your podcast.
I've only been listening to you guys for a couple months.
I'm enjoying all of the content, especially the mental breakdowns.
I'm currently going from my RN and I love the education.
I recently had to put my dad in a behavioral unit to help him with his schizophrenia.
Your podcast helped me understand what he's going through.
Thank you for all the confidence and help you to have given me.
Wow.
I know.
Thanks, Kalyana.
That's awesome.
Yeah, we received that message a few weeks ago, and I think I sent you a screenshot and
I actually started crying.
It was very touched and I was very, I was like, I've made it.
You've done it.
We have done what we set out to do and thank you so much for sharing that with us because
that really warms our hearts to know that we were able to assist and give you some confidence
and peace.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that most importantly, you know that you're not alone.
Yeah, definitely.
Thanks again for that wonderful message.
We also just wanted to give a big shout out to our Patreon members.
We definitely see you guys posting on our Patreon and commenting on those bonus episodes.
We're really glad that you guys are enjoying that extra content that you get.
If you'd like to join our Patreon members, they do get an extra bonus episode each month.
That is our tiers 3 and 4 Patreon members.
You just need to go to patreon.com.
We do have four tiers in our tier 1.
They will get ad-free mental breakdowns.
Tears 2, 3, and 4 will get ad-free every episode.
Then again, those tiers 3 and 4 will get that additional bonus episode every month.
Yeah, absolutely.
On any podcast platform that you're using, don't forget to add us to your list the way
you get instant updates and instant downloads.
Yeah, definitely.
Give us some follows.
Give us some reviews because that actually helps us get our name out there more and attract
more listeners and in turn be able to make more content.
We just want to say really quickly again, thanks for 73,000 downloads.
We're getting up there to 100,000 and we're going to make a big fuss about it when it
happens.
That's all you guys, so we really appreciate it.
Yeah, maybe we'll even do a merch giveaway or something for that.
Definitely.
Do you want to give everyone the rest of our social media handles before we get into this
case?
Sure, you can check us out on social media anywhere at Diagnosing a Killer, other than
ex formerly known as Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.
We also have a CashUp, PayPal, and Venmo if you would like to support us monetarily.
We are going to get the website back up, I promise.
It's coming.
It was under maintenance.
Yes, exactly.
Oh yeah, you guys give us a follow if you don't already, tell your friends if you think
we're funny.
I think we're funny, but I might just be vain.
Tell your friends, your family, your folks.
Yes, triple oof.
Okay, let's get into this case.
This is actually a requested case, but he's also been on my list for quite some time.
That's exciting.
No pun intended.
Oh, time.
No, list.
What do you mean list?
Okay, so I know it sounded like I was making a ticking noise, but I was trying to do the
elbow.
This is a request from listener Becca, and the reason I made a no pun intended joke is
because we are talking about John List today.
Oh.
He's been on my list for quite some time.
A, A, got a mint on her pillow?
Yeah, it's mint for you.
Okay, let's get into this.
Ready?
But first, as you may know, we are doing our content warning at the end of the episode
for each other as to not ruin anything for the other person that is listening and to
get genuine reactions, but you guys will not hear anything different, which means you will
be hearing your content warning right about now.
Content warning.
This episode contains depictions of child neglect, substance abuse, murder of children,
and suicide.
If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.
Remember, your mental health is very important, and we love you.
Love you.
Bye.
Never gets old.
Okay.
John Amiel List was born on September 17, 1925 in Bay City, Michigan, to parents John Frederick
List and Alma Barbara Florence List.
He would be the only child to his parents.
1925.
That's bold.
It was the 30s.
Although I'm sure a lot of families couldn't afford a lot.
This was during the Depression or right after.
True.
John Sr. was noted as being nearly 25 years older than Alma, and the two had only been
married a year when John Jr. was born.
Both John Sr. and Alma were of German descent, and they would attend the local German Lutheran
Church.
The family lived in a Victorian house in which they rented the upstairs apartment.
Due to the limited amount of space, John Jr. slept in the living room and was noted as
having no space for his things or hardly any privacy growing up.
That's gotta be rough.
Yeah.
Everyone's just in my area.
Yeah.
You're in the communal area where everyone walks through, and yeah.
That's gotta be rough.
Yeah, no privacy.
Like when you're a child, child, like a little, maybe it doesn't matter so much, but as you
get older, of course, that privacy is important.
Due to living in such a small open area, John grew up learning how to be very neat and clean
as his living space was also shared with his parents.
That's not gonna be a complex later.
John Sr. was noted as being less than interested in spending time with his son, and he would
mostly deal with John Jr. through Alma, referring to him only as the boy.
That's not gonna affect him later.
Oh, are you with the boy?
The boy.
Like it's not your child that you created.
Yeah.
Furthermore, John Sr. was considered the neighborhood mean guy, and he and John Jr. would rarely
spend any time together.
He was just kind of like a grump.
I mean, do you think that maybe he had a child with Alma because Alma wanted a child?
I think that he didn't intend to have a child with Alma, and he was much older than her,
so he was already over the kid thing.
Yeah.
And then when it happened, he's like, eh.
Oh.
You know.
I know.
I mean, that's just speculation.
I don't know.
Right.
I wasn't there.
Yeah.
You asked him.
Yeah.
He told me.
On top of this, John Sr. owned and ran a local store, and he was noted as strongly
disliking the neighborhood children, and he would become upset when they would come into
his store.
He's like in a candy store.
He's like candy for his children.
With his parents being extremely involved in the church, John was expected to uphold
the same amount of faith and behave and excel at school.
Since John was not spending much time with his father, Alma would take it upon herself
to bring him to her community functions, which mostly included events at the church.
John Sr., on top of running a local store, was also a church trustee and its treasurer,
and Alma would quickly begin to encourage John Jr. to follow in his father's footsteps.
Hmm.
All about religion.
Yeah.
But at the same time, why would he want to follow in his father's footsteps when his
father doesn't want to include him in anything?
Right.
I think that was Alma's way of maybe trying to get them to form a better relationship.
That makes sense.
She's trying to encourage John Jr. to do something that John Sr. enjoys.
Right.
To kind of create that bond.
Yeah.
Alma would also take it upon herself to spend more quality time with John Jr. each night
at bedtime, and the two would read the Bible together most nights.
You made a face like, oh no.
Well this is a crime podcast.
I didn't know where this was going.
Alma was noted as being a bit of a worried mother, especially since John was her only
child.
She would constantly be worried that her son would get sick, and because of this, she would
watch him constantly and keep him dressed up in order to stay warm and dry.
She's a little helicoptery?
Yeah, very much so.
Alma would also tell John that the outside world was scary and dangerous, and she would
not permit him to go play with any other neighborhood children or even like play outside by himself.
I'm gonna say it again.
That's not gonna affect him later.
Yeah, right.
A lot of these things we're seeing.
Oh no.
John, having a good relationship with his mother and a poor one with his father, abided
by Alma's wishes and accepted that he would just be staying home.
Once John reached high school, he had a little bit of luck making some friends, but he found
himself having trouble making any romantic connections with girls.
His mother's number one.
Right, exactly.
She's probably like, don't date girls, they're the devil.
They're the devil.
Little girls is a devil.
John would blend into the background throughout his time at Bay City Central High School,
and he would ultimately graduate in the year 1943.
The same year he graduated high school, John would enlist himself in the United States
Army to serve as a laboratory technician during World War II.
Of course, Alma was totally against this, but John would find himself disobeying his
mother for one of the first times, and he would go anyway.
The following year, in 1944, John Sr. would die, and John Jr. would head home from the
army in order to attend his funeral.
During the funeral service, it was noted by several attendees that John was seemingly
unbothered by his father's death.
He was emotionless and showed no signs of grief, seeming unaffected by the death of his
father.
He never had an emotional connection to it.
Right, so why would he?
But again, at this time in history, I'm pretty sure, I feel like it would be a little odd,
like, it's the nuclear family.
You should be distraught that your father's dead.
I don't care what kind of relationship you had with it.
That's true.
It is a very different generation, and parents were completely different than the way they
are now.
It's just a father's role at that time could be seen as someone who's a disciplinarian,
someone who keeps the family in line, and maybe not everyone did have an emotional connection
with their father back then.
But they probably had to pretend.
They probably had to pretend anyways.
Following the funeral, John would return to the army where he would serve for another
two years before being discharged in 1946.
Although he was there for nearly three years, John did not get to see much combat as the
war was over pretty quickly after he enlisted.
However, he would come home with a keen interest in firearms and a new weapon of his own, an
Austrian Steyr pistol.
He got to keep it, I guess.
Or maybe he bought it when he was overseas.
Or he stole it off of somebody's body.
Well, you know.
Speculation.
Tomato, tomato.
Once John was home, Alma would quickly take it upon herself to encourage John to go to
school for accounting as it could turn into a really good career for him.
John would agree and would make the decision to go to college where he would enroll at
the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.
While he was here, Alma would frequently visit John and the two would go to dinner and attend
church services together as well as studying the Bible.
John would go on to earn a bachelor's degree in business administration.
During this time, he would also be recognized as a second lieutenant through his participation
in the ROTC.
Furthering his education even more, John would quickly enroll in his graduate program and
achieve his master's degree in accounting.
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As to see what's getting ready to begin a career in the field, John would be called
into service for the Korean War in November of 1950.
This is like...
Okay, so his mother is the one that said...
She didn't agree with him going into the military, but when he came back, she was like,
oh, you should do this business thing.
And he's like, okay.
And then he just did it for so long.
And I just...
I feel like this is gonna come back around.
I feel like this is gonna be...
He leaves and she's gonna be... and I told you so situation or...
Okay, just tell me.
But at the same time, during this time when he's going back to the war, now it's not his
choice.
He was called because the war was starting and they're like, we need you.
I don't know if at that point there was a draft for the Korean War or if it was because
he was a veteran.
So they're like, we just need you.
Right.
But either way, if he hadn't been defiant, he wouldn't be called.
That's true.
Yeah.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah, at the beginning, yeah.
During this stint in the military, similarly to his first experience, John would not see
much combat and he would be stationed at Fort Eustis in Virginia.
Here, John would meet a woman by the name of Helen Morris Taylor.
Helen was the widow of an infantry officer that had been killed in action in Korea and
she lived nearby the base with her nine-year-old daughter Brenda.
One night, while out for a bowling excursion, John would meet Helen, who was there with
her sister Jean.
John would strike up conversation with Helen and she would notice that while he seemed
like a bit of a mama's boy, he was kind and stable.
John and Helen would quickly get acquainted and begin dating, an arrangement that Alma
did not care for one bit.
Shocker.
Right.
Alma was noted as being suspicious of Helen because she did not belong to their church.
Alma also noted that Helen had endured multiple miscarriages at the young age of 24 and she
was concerned that she would not be able to bear John a child and Alma a grandchild.
But I mean, she has a child, so she has a child.
Exactly.
Like, don't forget about that child.
That child also still needs the nuclear family.
Right.
They're Alma, okay?
However, quickly after they began seeing each other, Helen would announce that she
was pregnant.
Due to this news, Helen and John would quickly get married just two months after meeting
on December 1st, 1951.
My, that is quick.
That is quick.
Following their marriage, Alma would take any opportunity to tell John that he had made
a mistake and married down, which is so rude.
Oh, my God.
That is so rude.
It's still your daughter-in-law.
You're not going to make any attempt?
No.
Shortly after the marriage, Helen would admit to John that she was not actually pregnant.
And Helen would quickly realize that she might have married John a little too soon after
meeting Alma.
She's like, ooh, I don't know if I like this one.
Man, can't get along with the mother-in-law divorce.
Yeah.
Around this time, the army would reassign John to the finance corps due to his accounting
education, and John would invite his mother to move in with the family as she had never
been to California before.
Well, that's a great idea.
Yeah, just move her in.
So they all moved to California.
Oh, my gosh.
So John, his wife, the daughter, and the mom.
Yes.
Once they were in California, Helen began to truly see the domineering person that Alma
was, and the two would very quickly begin budding heads.
On top of this, John would constantly find himself caught in between his wife and his
mother.
Oh, no.
Taylor's oldest son.
John would officially be discharged from the army in 1952, and he would shortly thereafter
find work at an accounting firm in Detroit.
He would move the family with him and begin working at the prestigious firm.
Helen, Alma's with them as well.
A few years into this job and still living in Detroit, Helen would become pregnant with
her and John's first child, and Patricia Marie would be welcomed to the world in January
of 1955.
For real this time?
Yes.
The birth of their first child would seemingly change Alma's mind about Helen, and she would
be awestruck with love for this child.
Oh, my gosh.
Oh, okay, you're fine now, my book, because you gave me a grandchild.
Yeah, because now I have a grandbaby.
On this time, John would take a different job, this time in Kalamazoo, Michigan, as an audit
supervisor at a paper company.
Helen and John's second child, John Frederick, would be born in 1956 while here in Kalamazoo,
the family moved yet again.
Meanwhile, Helen was growing tired of having to attend church services with John and his
mother when she was really not interested in his religion.
Helen would begin avoiding church, and this would leave John feeling abandoned and upset.
In response to this, John would begin to withdraw and spend more time in private.
This would go on for nearly two years until 1958, when Helen would become pregnant yet
again.
Helen would be experiencing intense depression around this time, and her pregnancy hormones
would not help this.
And keep in mind, she had a baby like within a year, and now it's within two years.
Like she's probably not given herself enough time to recover hormonally.
Now that it's her fault, but in general.
It can happen.
Also around this time, Brenda, Helen's first child, now 16, was beginning to cause trouble
and begging to get out of the house.
I'm sure she was like, this guy's not for me, I'm not as fan of his mom.
And there's two little babies now screaming all the time in the house.
Can't be fun.
That's true.
John and Helen's third child, Frederick Michael, would be born, and shortly after this, Helen
would begin drinking very heavily to cope with her depression.
Helen's addiction would quickly take over, and soon she was turning to tranquilizers
to cope with her feelings.
Tranquilizers?
Yeah.
Dang.
Do they even have those back then?
Yeah, horse tranquilizers, I'm sure.
Yeah, that's true.
Helen would recognize that she needed help around this time, and she would begin to see
a psychiatrist.
However, she was still struggling with her addiction, and this would cause her to spend
more money than she was making, and leaving John to be the main caretaker of the children,
as she was neglecting them at this time as well.
That's so sad.
It's really sad.
It's not.
She's clearly doing it because of something she's going through now, because she's a party
chick.
It kind of sounds like John is like, well, you're not interested in my religion, then
I'm not interested in helping you.
You need to just turn to God.
I'm sure he's saying that.
Yeah.
Just turn to the church or whatever.
Just like his own father.
However, regardless of her extracurricular activities, Helen's, John was known as rarely
complaining.
On a couple of occasions, Helen was noted as pushing John a little too far, and he was
noted as responding with rage and aggression.
In one particular instance, during an argument, John was noted as overturning the kitchen
table.
In response to this, an aloof Helen simply stated that she was not going to pick anything
up and left the room, leaving John to clean up his rage mess, which he did.
I'd be like that too.
I'd be like, okay, now you're going to clean that up?
Yeah, now you've got that.
Because, yeah.
What John is not going to do?
I understand what the picture is painting, which is that she is unbothered because of
the amount of alcohol and just her lack of probably understanding at this point of really
what's going on if she's numbing herself to extreme.
Yeah, definitely.
By 1959, John had risen to general supervisor of the company's accounting department, but
Helen's erratic behavior was also becoming increasingly unstable.
When we know to John, Helen had also contracted syphilis in the past from her previous husband,
a fact that she did not disclose to John when they got married.
This coupled with her depression and substance abuse issues caused Helen to experience extreme
mental symptoms.
A year later in 1960, an 18-year-old Brenda would marry and leave the household.
Meanwhile, the company that John was working for would merge, and he would take the opportunity
to accept work in Rochester, New York, moving the family with him yet again.
That's a big move, though, especially if you're in finance.
Yeah, definitely.
That's great.
During the time he was working in New York, John and Helen's relationship would remain
the same, but John would keep up the act in front of his coworkers that he had the perfect
home life.
Of course.
Back at home, Helen would begin to despise John, and she would start to recognize the
attention she would get from other men.
Helen was not shy about this attention, and this would really upset John, straining their
relationship even further.
Is she going out at this point to drink?
I don't think it was a specific instance that I heard she was flirting with other men or
going out to meet other men.
I think she was just starting to realize that there was other men around her other than
John.
Sure.
She was distancing herself like, oh, there might be something better out here for me.
At the coffee shop, she's known as passing glances or something.
It wasn't super specific.
Yeah.
Regardless of their differences, John and Helen would stay married, and John would also
keep this position in New York until 1965.
Around this time, John accepted yet another different position as vice president and comptroller
at a bank in Jersey City, New Jersey.
So the LISC family would up and move once again, this time to a 19 room Victorian mansion.
Wow.
19 room.
What do you do with those 19 rooms?
You need like 15 more kids.
Yeah.
Exactly.
You don't have the children for that.
Yeah.
You just start adopting some.
But Victorian mansion, that's where John grew up, but they lived in the apartment at the
top.
So he's like, I'm gonna buy the whole damn house.
Full circle.
Yeah.
Wow.
However, while John's job was good, it was not that good.
And he wouldn't list the help of his mother to cover the down payment on the house.
Okay.
I don't like this whole like Norman Bates thing.
This wild thing.
Yeah.
She's coming too.
Yeah.
And it's very Norman Bates.
Very Norman Bates.
Also, it seems like he kind of doesn't stay in a position for very long, does he?
Is it that he's moving up or is it just, you think he gets bored?
I think it's a little bit of both.
And also, it kind of comes out later that he doesn't really have great like social skills
and like great relationships with coworkers.
I see.
So I think maybe he's like, I'm just over this and I just want to move somewhere else.
But he's also in turn like gaining better positions and moving up in the chain, if you
will.
Well, I guess especially back then, if you have a lot of experience, experience equals
to some extent, almost kind of like a degree at certain points in time.
And so I think that that's also something to consider.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
So you think it's more like coworkers that are saying, well, you dropped a piece of paper
and he's like, so and so is just unbearable.
Yeah, I think he's kind of like, he doesn't like to stay in the same place very often.
He wants the next best thing.
So again, he would enlist the help of his mom to cover the down payment on the home.
Alma would agree on one condition.
She be allowed to live in the home as well.
I mean, they got 19 rooms.
It's not like they don't have space.
Yeah.
Put her in the mother-in-law suite in the backyard.
Yep.
She was actually in the upstairs apartment.
Okay.
They lived when he was a kid.
So he gave her that whole upstairs apartment.
She lived there by herself.
It was like three stories up.
It was the same house?
No, no, no.
The same setup.
Oh, okay.
Oh my gosh.
I was like, whoa.
Really full circle.
This new job of John's would not last long due to the fact that it required social skills
that he didn't have and the ability to pull in business that John couldn't do.
He didn't really have any sales bone in his body.
Furthermore, his colleagues around this time would describe John as extremely cold and
altogether unlikable.
Which is like, I'm really bad at things.
So mean.
So within the first year, John would be let go from this position.
Living in a very nice home, John would quickly find himself struggling to pay the mortgage
and utility bills, especially on top of the already expensive bills to take care of his
family.
Yeah.
I mean, they have four kids, well, one's out of the house, but three kids.
Three kids and a mother-in-law.
John decided that he was going to keep his firing to himself and he would continue to
get up each morning and leave the home, leaving Helen to believe he was going to work every
day.
He did not.
That's foul.
Why would you do that?
Because that's like one of the dumbest things I've ever heard in my life.
That's wild to just lie to someone about what you did with your day.
Just put on your uniform and just straight up lie about your day.
It's weird to me because it's like, okay, in this instance, I'm not going to say it
makes sense, but he's trying to fain that he has money, right?
But also how are you going to actually get money?
You can only pretend that you're going to work for so long and then she's going to be
like, well, where's the bills?
You know what I mean?
Where's the mortgage?
Does he become a paper boy?
I don't understand.
He's got to get a job.
So part of that is, yeah, not only are you just lying to your family the entire time,
but you have no concept of future consequences.
Exactly.
You went and started living out of your means and bought this giant house and now, you know,
you didn't plan for the future, bro.
However, when John left the home, he was actually going to the train station and he would just
sit there all day reading a book or the newspaper.
He gets on the train, leans, and we never see him again.
Bye, Sayonara.
He dicks over Helen with the mortgage is what he does.
That's all new, girl.
You put my name on the list.
I am out of here.
John would keep up the charade for a full six months, paying the bills from his mother's
bank account.
Does his mother know?
Since Alma had moved into the home and was getting older, John had actually taken over
as her financial power of attorney.
Oh my God.
However, he was not telling her how she stood financially and he was using all of her money
without her knowledge.
He's like, everything's great.
It's all good.
Why are you crying?
Why are you crying, John?
Yeah.
Everything's fine.
Everything's the life that I wanted.
That's sad.
John would eventually find another job to commute to in New York, but again, this would
only last for a year.
John would finally accept his financial state and take out a second mortgage to pay his
bills.
Oh, that'll fix it.
Yeah.
At around this time in the late 60s, Helen would be diagnosed with cerebral atrophy, a
degenerative brain disorder, and John would be advised to institutionalize her so that
she could have better assistance.
Wow, that's so sad.
That's probably due to the substance abuse, I would think.
John would refuse to do this and he would just keep Helen at the mansion.
He's like, no, we're not doing that.
But he didn't get any external help.
So he was like, I'm just going to find.
She's a shut-in now.
Yeah.
In an attempt to escape his reality, John began to throw himself into his hobbies.
He would read books on crime, the military, and weapons, probably at the train station.
It was around this time that John was noted as suggesting to his brother-in-law that it
would be really easy for him to just begin another life and start over.
He's like, you know what, screw this, I could just start over, I could just disappear.
He's going to hop on that train and never come back.
He said that, I thought that was funny.
John would get yet another job around this time where he would sell mutual funds from
his home and Helen would continue to drink heavily.
As for Helen and John, while John was still attending church services and overall kind
of well-adjusted, he and Helen were arguing frequently.
John would try and buy things for Helen to appease her, but this never seemed to work.
On top of this, John would begin sleeping in a separate bedroom altogether to avoid
Helen's harsh language and lash-outs.
John would lean towards his face and begin praying for the Lord to guide him in his current
situation and give him a sort of sign, but he never received one.
Seeing that it was the 60s, John was still under pressure to be the man of the household
and provide for his family.
On top of this, the nuclear family was expected to be happy and intact, and John was embarrassed
and ashamed that this was simply not the case in his household.
John began to resent his life and thinking that he was a failure as a man.
To counteract this, John would take to the children, beginning to rule over them with
an iron fist and forcing them to obey his rules that they believed were unfair.
He would say, if I can't control my wife or my mom, I'm going to control the kids.
At least they'll listen to me.
We can all look like that, at least a few of us will be happy.
From the outside, however, John was just a strict religious father who mowed his lawn
in a suit and tie.
No, he did not.
I swear.
No, he did not.
Is there a photo?
I don't know.
I actually haven't looked.
I need receipts.
Receipts or it didn't happen.
The couple's eldest child, Patricia, or Patty, would begin to rebel around this point.
Patty would be picked up by the police for walking in the streets after midnight and
smoking.
Furthermore, she had expressed desires to become an actress to her parents, and John
would respond to this by calling her a slut, and it was very clearly jealous that she had
friends and a social life outside of the home.
Interesting.
He's like, no, you slut.
Like, don't have friends.
You're going to be an actress.
Yeah, you know one other person.
You must be a slut.
Yeah.
Furthermore, unbeknownst to John, his young teen daughter had begun to experiment with
drugs and developed a keen interest in the occult.
It was around this time that Patty would begin to distance herself from her father, as she
thought that he just didn't care for her.
In October of 1971, John was noted as applying for a firearms registration he noted as being
for a quote, home protection, end quote.
He does have a keen interest in guns.
Sure.
On November 5, 1971, John and his family sat down for their nightly dinner at home.
Following dinner, John grabbed all three of his children and sat them down.
John told his children that they must prepare to die, before asking them if they wanted to
be buried or cremated after their deaths.
What?
While the children were in shock, they also either thought their father was just being
morbid or didn't want to upset him, and they would all answer that they would rather be
buried.
It became clear quickly that the children were having a difficult time with this comment
by their father, and Patty would even take it upon herself to confide in her drama coach.
This is wild.
She would tell him that if he were to hear that her family were going on vacation anytime
soon, this would really mean that her father was about to murder the children.
Oh my gosh.
Heems.
I literally got all of them.
Oh my gosh.
All the heems.
The drama teacher would not take this comment seriously and just brush it off.
No.
Sorry.
We've heard that so many times.
Yeah, don't do that.
On November 9th, 1971, John went right up a note and placed it on the front door.
The note stated something along the lines of letting the milkman, newspaper guy, and
mailman know not to drop anything off at the home that day.
However, when the milkman showed up at the home, he would walk up to the door, read the
note, and be on his way.
On top of this note, John had also mailed himself a letter that contained a key to his
filing cabinet.
In the morning, John would send the children to school, watch the milkman leave the home,
and begin what would be a heinous attack.
Helen would be the first one to walk down the stairs and into the kitchen to make herself
something to eat.
John was in the office on the first floor, and upon hearing Helen enter the kitchen,
he would exit the office and sneak up behind her as she sat looking out the window.
John would raise his 1912 styron 9mm that he got in the army up to Helen's head, pull
the trigger, and shoot her in the jaw.
Helen fell forward towards the table, hitting it on her way to the floor, and died almost
instantly.
It was noted that Helen had part of the toast she was eating still in her throat when she
died, and this has led investigators to believe that she might have seen John coming or heard
him right before he shot her.
That's savage.
Following Helen being deceased, John fired several more rounds of shots into the wall
behind the table.
I'm not sure about the reason for this.
Well maybe because maybe he was trying to stage it as an attack or self-defense, so
if it's like, oh I just shot her in self-defense once, it doesn't really look, you know.
John's mother Alma was at home during this time, but she lived on the third floor of
the mansion in her own apartment.
John would make his way up three flights of stairs and reach the apartment.
John would open the door without knocking and surprise his mother who was in the kitchen
making breakfast.
Alma was awaiting her own toast to be ready, and when John barged in, she asked him what
all the noise was that she had just heard downstairs.
John would not respond to his mother, and instead immediately shoot her point blank
in her left eye, then shot twice more into the wall behind her.
Another source stated that John may have missed his mother the first time, which is why he
shot again, but he did hit her at least once and killed her.
John was originally planning on taking his mother downstairs, but she was too heavy for
him to lift, so he would ultimately push her body onto a carpet runner and drag her into
a nearby closet.
During this, John would head back downstairs and move Helen's body into a downstairs bathroom.
The movement of Helen's deceased body was noted as leaving a 40 foot trail of blood.
John then took three sleeping bags and opened two of them up next to each other and placed
Helen's body on the third.
John would cover her body with a bath towel, also placing a kitchen towel on her head.
John would do his best to clean up the blood from both murders, and at this point, he realized
that his own clothes were soaked in blood.
John made his way into Helen's bedroom, which he was not staying in at the moment, and sat
down on her bed, wiping his hands off on the blanket.
He then ran into the bathroom and vomited, leaving a bloody handprint on the toilet lid.
During this, John would shower and change into a suit and tie, leaving his soiled clothes
and shoes in the bathroom.
He would then call his boss to leave him a message that he would not be able to attend
the scheduled meeting he had with him.
He explained that he was going to be taking his family to North Carolina to see Helen's
mother, who was very ill.
Dang, the daughter called it!
Yep, Helen's mother was indeed ill at this time, but she was actually planning on being
with the Lists that week on a trip. Due to her being sick, she couldn't make it, and
this may have prevented her from becoming a victim as well.
John would then write notes to the children's schools and places of employment with the
same message.
John would hang out at the home, doing casual chores for many hours as he awaited the children's
return from school.
He then went out in his yard, in his suit and tie, to rake leaves.
What? There's no way this man does this.
Well, that's what it says.
A neighbor of his saw him, but John pretended not to see her.
He would then go back inside and make some lunch for himself.
Lunch?
I'm sorry, lunch?
Casual sammion chips.
When his wife and mother laid dead in that house.
Then the phone rang.
It was Patty.
She had called the family home, stating that she was not feeling well and wanted John to
come pick her up from school so that she could come home.
Oh no.
A slightly annoyed John would agree and go pick up his daughter.
He was slightly annoyed because this wasn't part of his plan.
And he's slightly annoyed because anything that has to do with his children.
Like you said, he has very methodically planned this out.
This was not part of the plan to bring her home early.
You're right.
But that makes me think she wasn't feeling well.
I wonder if she had a gut feeling.
After her mom and grandmother had been killed.
You know how some people have that intuition?
When Ma died, I had woken up.
I was actually at a friend's house.
I had snuck out at age 15, 16 years old.
I had done this regularly where I went over to a friend's house and played video games.
And all of a sudden I started feeling like really sick at like 2.30 in the morning, maybe
3.
So I asked him if he could drive me home.
And it was literally within 30, 40 minutes of that that our mother got a phone call that
our grandmother had passed away.
Yeah.
So again, John went to pick up Patty from school.
And once the two were back home, John would hurry past Patty and into the home.
Once inside, he crouched behind a door and waited for his daughter to enter.
Oh my god, this is awful.
As Patty entered the home, John would jump up and shoot her at close range in the back
of her head.
Patty would fall forward and die as she hit the floor.
John then dragged her body and placed it into one of the open sleeping bags.
After cleaning himself up once again, John went out to run some errands.
Oh my, this man.
If you can call him that.
This included gathering up however much money he was able to get and mailing the letters
that he had written.
He would run into some people around town that he knew while he was out.
And these people would later state that his face was red and blotchy and he seemed kind
of nervous, but they just kind of brushed it off.
Red and blotchy like blood.
I don't know.
I feel like it's a little bit of like embarrassment, kind of like a flush, you know, like kind
of like, but yeah, maybe blood.
Like he knows he's creating an alibi.
An alibi.
Yeah.
Later that afternoon, John would go pick up his youngest son Fred from his after school
job.
Once again, he would hurry into the house before his son and await him entering the home.
This is brutal.
Fred did not even have time to remove his coat before being shot in the head once,
constantly dying.
John would take Fred's body and place it beside his mother's.
The remaining child, John Jr. was at soccer practice at this time and he was not expected
home until later.
From this point on, I'm going to refer to John as John Sr. and then his son as John
Jr.
Hmm.
John Sr. would get ready to leave to pick up his son, but as he was exiting the home,
he saw John Jr. coming up the driveway, arriving home much earlier than anticipated.
Not part of his plan.
John Sr. would quickly go back inside and hide.
John Jr. would enter the home through the laundry room and come upon his father pointing
a gun at him.
John Jr. would reach forward and grab his father's hand, the gun being shot in the
process.
The bullet would go into the ceiling and the two began struggling over the gun.
Two more shots would be fired into the floor, another would hit the cabinet, and a fifth
would hit the dining room window frame.
John Jr. would continue to dodge any shots fired at him.
However, as he was trying to get away, a bullet would be fired into his back, then another
on the back of his neck, and a third would hit him in the head.
John Jr. would fall to the floor, breaking his jaw in the process.
John Sr. would fire once again at his son, but the boy was still alive at this point.
Oh my god, this is so terrible.
John Sr. would grab a second gun at this point and begin firing multiple rounds, not
even caring about the amount of noise he was making.
As he was continuing to be shot at, John Jr. would begin crawling across the floor in order
to avoid the bullets.
He would turn himself over at one point, and he was met with another shot straight to his
eye.
Still, John Jr. was alive, and his father would shoot him once again.
All in all, John Jr. would suffer 10 bullet wounds and would ultimately die at the scene.
Oh my god.
A poor kid.
Just horrendous, lost few moments.
He did everything he possibly could.
This is your father.
The father is like, I'm gonna stop at nothing to kill you.
Just bloodlust.
John would drag his eldest son into the area where the other family members were and covered
each one of their faces with towels.
He would then kneel down and pray over their bodies, willing their souls to be at peace.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, he's a good guy.
As John was getting ready to leave the home, the doorbell rang.
It was the mailman coming to deliver the letter that John had mailed to himself.
What?
He went into town to mail it, but he lives down the street, so the mailman was like,
oh, this is right here.
Let's bring it back.
Getting no answer, the mailman would slip the letter into the door and be on his way.
Still at the home, that evening, John would call his pastor, Reverend Rae Winkle, and relate
to him the plans to head to North Carolina with the family.
He also stated that because he was going to be out of town, he would not be able to teach
Sunday school that weekend like he had planned.
Oh, he's such a good guy.
Then John called Patti's drama coach and told him the plan to leave town.
At this point, John would sit down at the table and begin to write another letter.
This time, it was to his pastor.
The letter was entitled, quote, a few words from John E. List, career builder, end quote.
I couldn't find the whole note, but I will relay the pieces that I found.
Quote, dear pastor Rae Winkle, I am very sorry to add this additional burden to your work,
end quote.
After explaining what he had done, John stated other things such as, quote, I leave myself
in the hands of God's justice and mercy.
This makes me think that perhaps it was for the best as far as the children's souls are
concerned.
After it was all over, I said some prayers for them all from the hymn book.
That was the least I could do.
I know that many will only look at the additional years that they could have lived, but if I
finally, there were no longer Christians, what would be gained?
I think that was a misinterpreted when it was translated.
Quote, also, I'm sure many will say, how could anyone do such a horrible thing?
My only answer is it isn't easy and was only done after much thought, end quote.
So he's not doing a self-defense angle like I said.
Yeah.
He's not, they're going to heaven.
Yeah.
I did this for their souls, which is really interesting because-
Where's these Andrea Yates?
Exactly.
Yeah, Andrea Yates, who, you know, committed this, committed the act of killing her children
because she thought that she was saving their souls.
We haven't, other than John's association with the church, we really haven't seen him
kind of geared towards this kind of religious fanatic.
Yeah, but I think it went a lot deeper than what it says.
And him and his mom had that relationship with their religion.
His parents were really devoutly religious.
They wanted him to follow in the footsteps of their community work with the church.
I think that he might have been way more involved in it than we are seeing from the research.
It's maybe a sense of identity.
Yeah.
Hmm.
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John would continue in the note and state that he shot his Taylor members from behind
because he, quote, didn't want any of them to know even at the last second that I had
to do this to them, end quote.
But your son.
Yeah.
He then stated about having to also kill his mother because it, quote, would have been
a tremendous shock to her, end quote.
I can see that, like it would kill her anyways.
Yeah, or she would have turned him in probably.
John finishes the letter by talking about how he was upset that Helen stopped going
to church and the fact that she had talked about leaving the church altogether.
He stated about this, quote, if any one of these had been the condition, we might have
pulled through this, but it was just too much.
At least I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now, end quote.
He signed the letter, John, and then included, quote, P.S., mother is in the hallway in the
attic third floor.
She was too heavy to move, end quote.
Oh, my, heath.
If the rest of the letter didn't make you convince that he's just cold-blooded, that
tells me, I'm like, okay, that was super nonchalant.
Yeah, by the way.
By the way, in case you're looking for what you might be, because you walked in upon this
scene.
I'm telling you now.
Just letting you know.
If you choose.
Yeah.
Choose upstairs in the closet.
Right.
It's like, okay, thanks for that fricking information.
Great.
Among other things in the five page letter, John had asked that his family be buried
altogether, and he felt sure that God would forgive him.
After writing this letter, John would make himself dinner and lay down to take a little
nap.
In the house?
He would sleep for hours and he woke up around dusk, like right when the sun was setting.
I mean, I guess it's a big enough house.
Yeah, but still.
Upon waking up, John would set the thermostat to 50 degrees, turned on every single light
in the rooms of the home, and put music on over the intercom speakers.
I think it was classical.
John would pack up some essentials and leave the home, but not before cutting himself out
of all the family photos in the home.
What?
I don't know if that was like, he's doing that himself as like a way to like, I'm cutting
myself out of their lives because I did this, or he was trying to cover his tracks maybe,
and he didn't want photos of him in the house because it would be harder to determine like
who it was that they were looking for.
Hmm.
I don't know what that came from.
Yeah.
I mean, that's an interesting theory that they wouldn't be able to identify specifically
who he was and-
Or circulate multiple different photos of him.
Of him.
Exactly.
And he was looking for the key on essentially eyewitness testimony from friends and family.
Yeah.
Also, that letter that he wrote, he left at the house as well for the police to find.
Well, he was wanting the pastor to be the only one to see it, but he left it at the house.
He didn't mail it like he did everything else.
But the mail- sorry, the mailman dropped off the house key?
He had a key to a filing cabinet that he mailed to himself.
I didn't read anything else about that.
I don't know why he did that.
I couldn't find out.
I mean, I probably could have like dug a little deeper to find out, but it didn't- it
didn't like pan out to anything.
Interesting.
Maybe it was a filing cabinet elsewhere, like at his office or something that he needed.
Fair.
So John left the house and planned on starting a new life, like he said would be so easy
to do.
I just don't understand.
You murder your entire family because you were trying to save them from a religious standpoint?
Or you felt like you had no other choice?
Or was it to start a new life?
Because I feel like this is all conflicting emotions.
And he was saying- well, you know, he was saying with his- I think in his mind, like
my financial burdens, like this is too much.
Like I can't keep up this lifestyle anymore.
They're gonna suffer anyway.
Not excusing it, I'm just thinking what he might have been thinking.
Right.
But yeah, so he hopped a train and that's the end of the story.
You're funny.
Patty's drama coach becoming worried that what Patty said may have actually happened
would drive past the home later that evening.
But seeing all the lights on, he figured everything was fine and he went home.
Fair.
That's probably why you did it, but fair.
With all of the people in their lives thinking that they just left town for a while, nobody
really thought anything was wrong with the List family.
In fact, weeks would go by with nobody being the wiser that there were several bodies in
the List home.
Oh my god.
And it would not be until the church, schools, and extended family members got weary that
there would be any question as to what had happened.
It wasn't until neighbors noticed no change in the home for a while and the drama teacher
bugged officials enough that they phoned police to do a wellness check.
When police arrived on December 7th, 1971, nearly a month after the murders, they were
horrified by what they discovered.
Yeah, I bet.
Nearly a month, almost to the day, like two days shy of a month.
I will say he did turn down the thermostat, which is interesting.
Well, he probably wanted to maintain the crime scene so that it didn't start to be gross,
but smell alert neighbors.
Exactly.
Preserve them.
Yeah.
News quickly spread about the most violent crime that the town had ever seen, and a nationwide
manhunt was quickly put into place.
Once the letter had surfaced and it was clear that John was the main suspect in the case,
officers began to believe that he would eventually turn himself in.
Yeah, right.
Meanwhile, investigators were able to come up with at least 150 pieces of incriminating
evidence from the crime scene to use against John once he was in custody.
But not a single photo of him.
Yeah.
They would attend the funeral services for the family, hoping that John would show up,
but with no luck.
The FBI would also quickly get involved with the case, and they would put up wanted signs
around the area with John's photo and description.
On top of these photos and info, police were also able to determine that John suffered
from severe hemorrhoids and had really bad eyesight.
Facts that they were not shy about sharing.
This guy, if you see this man's butthole, he has hemorrhoids.
The flyers were also sent to pharmacies and eye doctors all over the country with the
hope that he would seek help from one of them along the way.
Isn't that so smart though?
That is smart.
That's so smart.
This guy doesn't have glasses and he can't see.
He might come to you for help.
That's true.
Although his name isn't John anymore, apparently.
Yeah, he's bleeding from the beehole.
He might need some help.
It smells like poop and blood.
As investigators began to look further into John's life, they discovered that he had
rented a private PO box to receive pornography subscriptions.
The devil of us all, right?
Pornography.
Pretty soon it became clear to authorities that not only did John have a secret life,
but he was not going to be easy to find.
Meanwhile, after John left the home, he had traveled by train from New Jersey to Michigan
and then to Colorado.
Then in the beginning of 1972, a man by the name of Robert or Bob Peter Clark would find
work in the form of a night shift cook in Denver, Colorado at a holiday inn.
Denver.
Nine long months went by without any information leading to John, but on August 30th, 1972,
the Victorian mansion where the murders happened burned to the ground.
While there were many kids in and out of the home to vandalize it after the crimes, the
cause of this fire was indeed arson.
However, this crime would never be solved due to insufficient evidence, and a new house
would be built on the property in 1974.
Interesting.
Back to 1972, so this is about a year after the murders, John would be proposed as a possible
suspect in the D.B. Cooper air piracy due to the fact that he disappeared two weeks prior
to the airline hijacking, and he shared multiple characteristics with the hijackers' description.
He had a hat and glasses on.
Yeah, it didn't pan out.
Back in Colorado, Bob Clark had transitioned from line cook to a place called the Pinery
and would quickly become assistant manager and accountant.
Oh wow, that sounds familiar.
Bob would be successful in this company for a number of years, and in 1975, he would join
a local church looking for a good community to involve himself in.
Interesting, possibly looking for a wife.
Again, this is four years after the murders.
Oh my gosh.
The following year, a once broke, lonely Bob Clark was now finding himself being able to
afford a car and finally got a driver's license he had been wanting for years.
Now with a vehicle, Bob would volunteer to drive members of his church where they needed
to go and would even become part of the church's finance council.
Wow, you're telling me Bob knows things about finances.
Yeah, isn't that interesting.
So wild.
This is the first time I'm hearing of this.
Bob would meet a divorcee by the name of Dolores Miller around the late 70s at a singles social.
In order to appease to her likings, Bob would agree to take square dancing lessons and treated
Dolores very well.
When Dolores inquired as to Bob's past relationships, he would share with her that he was a widower
since his wife had died of cancer, but he never showed her a photo of his wife as it
was a really sore subject for him.
The two would date for a number of years and they would tie the knot in 1985.
Fourteen years after the murders.
Shortly after the marriage, Bob would be fired from his job for failing to keep up with company
changes and he was also asked to leave his role as a Sunday school teacher due to his
domineering approach.
Interesting.
Was this after he purchased a 20 room mansion?
I don't think he did that yet.
Okay.
He can't knot though.
Right.
It's in his nature.
At this point, Bob would attempt to become an independent financial consultant, but this
would also fall through.
At the age of 55, Bob was having trouble finding work and Dolores would begin to regret sharing
her life with him as he was beginning to be unsuccessful.
Interesting.
Around this time, while Bob was spending a lot of time at home, he began having frequent
conversations with his neighbor, Wanda Flannery.
Wanda was known as being very interested in tabloids and would come home with several
a week for entertainment.
One day in February of 1987, Wanda came home with a new addition and spotted an article
about a man named John List who had murdered his entire family 16 years prior and had gotten
away with it.
Immediately, Wanda noticed that this man looked remarkably similar to her neighbor Bob.
I couldn't possibly be Bob though.
As she was reading, she glanced up from the paper and looked towards her neighbor's home
where Bob was standing looking back at her.
I couldn't say it.
Oh my God.
I literally couldn't even say that without like, oh that's so creepy.
He was staring at her through the window.
I thought you were going to say he was mowing the lawn in a suit.
Staring at her in a suit and tie.
In a suit and tie.
But yeah, I think like they were, the way that I read it, it made it seem like they
were both like on their front porches and she like just happened to look up and he's
like just, oh my God.
He knew he was in that magazine and he saw the cover.
Right.
He saw his self from afar.
Does she know it's me?
As she kept reading, Wanda noticed that the little details that were included about John
were the same as the little things about Bob.
Bob had a scar from a procedure that John had had.
They both had money problems and were very religious.
They both worked in the same field of work and they were both from Michigan.
Wanda began to wonder if she should tell Dolores about her suspicions as she thought that surely
Dolores knows things about Bob and would make it clear that he wasn't John.
Right.
She's like, okay, she's going to tell me that I'm crazy.
I've met his family.
I've met his mother.
I've met his, you know, whatever.
At least I know what the ex-wife looks like.
When Bob left the home for work at a temporary job one day, Wanda brought the paper over
to Dolores's home and she urged Dolores to show it to Bob in order to gauge his reaction.
Dolores agreed that she would, but she ultimately would throw the paper away once Wanda left.
Well, who wants to do that?
Are you this murderer?
Yeah.
Then you know that you're- At large murder.
At large murder.
He's not afraid to murder his wife and most wanted.
Most wanted.
Are you this man?
Are you most wanted?
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
Totally.
That sounds like a smart decision.
So Wanda wouldn't push the issue following this.
She didn't follow up.
She's like, you know what?
I told her, that's fine.
Shortly after this, Bob would find work in Richmond, Virginia and he and Dolores would
pack up and move east.
Oh gosh.
Meanwhile, the investigation was not really revealing anything new.
At one point there was a psychic that was brought in and while there were certain things
that would later make sense, it didn't really lead to much.
In 1988, Fox would air a television show about fugitives from serious crimes that were still
at large, entitled America's Most Wanted.
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
I love John Walsh.
I am obsessed.
So for those who don't know, John Walsh's son, Adam was actually kidnapped out of a
grocery store when he was like six, I want to say, five or six.
And here in the States, we have something called a code, Adam, at our grocery stores,
which means somebody calls a code, Adam, you immediately lock the front doors.
There is no in and out.
Every person that works at the establishment is supposed to guard the doors until that
child is found.
He was snatched out of a grocery store when his mother wasn't looking and he was murdered.
Yeah.
It's horrible.
But John Walsh, excuse me, John Walsh went on to become the host of America's Most Wanted.
Yes, he does a lot of advocacy work, for sure.
I'm hoping to meet him one day at CrimeCon.
That would be incredible.
I think he was there this year.
That'd be an honor.
Jeffrey Paul Hummel, the detective assigned to the case, had been working tirelessly
until he got transferred to Narconix.
He would still be asked to be updated on the case following his transfer, but he wouldn't
really hear much as the years went on.
One day, he would catch a glimpse of America's Most Wanted and reach out to Captain Frank
Moronka in order to try to get the case on the show.
When the case of John Liss was brought to the show, it was originally turned down as
it was quote, too old, and quote.
Which is like, yeah, that's why.
It's a cold case.
Hello, like help us.
I think they did an unsolved mysteries on this one too, didn't they?
Maybe.
Oh, on this case?
Yeah.
Oh, I'm not sure.
Probably around the time.
However, the executive producer was scheduled to speak at a law enforcement conference,
and Captain Moronka would go to the conference as well, taking the list files with him.
He's like, okay, maybe I'll reach him here.
The producer thought that the 17-year-old case was interesting and recognized that all
of the potential witnesses were still alive.
Well, yeah, that would make for a great episode.
There was only one problem.
Nobody had a recent photo of John.
The producer of America's Most Wanted actually knew a guy by the name of Frank Bender, who
was a sculptor and photographer, and he was able to use clay to reconstruct what John's
face must have looked like so many years later.
Wow.
Isn't that so cool that you can do that?
I love that.
Yeah, absolutely.
This is before computer animation.
Of course, we have things like police sketch artists, but to really visualize what someone's
face would look like 3D in clay, especially for the time.
Totally wild.
Yeah, impressive.
On top of this, forensic psychologists were brought in to determine how John's personality
may have developed or changed with age so that they could relate it.
He might be casual.
He might be this, different than what they're saying he was during the crime.
He might have a mustache.
He might not.
He might have glasses.
He might not.
Is he bald?
Is he not?
Right.
The first wanted episode of John aired on May 21st, 1989, with John Walsh introducing
the segment as New Jersey's most famous murder case.
The story ran for just 10 minutes with an estimated 22 million viewers.
Yeah.
America's most wanted was hot at the time.
Everybody watched that every, whatever it was, Saturday night.
The funny thing is, Bob and Dolores would actually frequently watch the show themselves.
But the night that it aired, they were at a church social, so they missed it.
This is before DVR.
Yeah.
So he would have seen himself on the TV.
Could you imagine being Dolores?
Yeah.
Just be like, oh, that looks like you.
Not only were you in one article in a magazine, but now the entirety of America is looking
at someone who looks like you.
Yeah.
Wanda Flannery was watching that night, however.
But to her, the reconstructed sculpture didn't really resemble her old neighbor, Bob.
Regardless, she felt the need to come forward.
She had her son-in-law call the phone number on the TV and gave them the info, along with
Bob and Dolores's new address in Virginia.
Interesting.
On top of this, over 300 calls came into the hotline that evening.
A lot of people were like, yo.
Check this guy out.
On June 1st, 1989, two FBI agents went to check out leads that they had received from the
show.
Bob and Dolores's home was first on the list.
Agent Kevin August approached the door, knocked, and a woman would answer the door.
Agent August simply stated the name Bob Clark in the form of a question to which Dolores
replied, he's at work.
She's a weird hawk eye.
The two agents would explain why they were there, and she would allow them to come in
to show her some photos.
Dolores was notably pale and began to tremble as she read the files.
She admitted that there was some resemblance, but denied that it could be her husband.
Then she began to cry, and as the conversation continued, the pieces became clear.
Bob Clark was John List.
No one saw that one coming.
One agent would stay at the home, while the other headed to Bob's place of work, phoning
two other agents on the way.
The agents entered the office and saw Bob Clark, who seemed unsurprised that they were
there.
They proceeded to ask Bob several questions about his identity, which he answered correctly,
and then he was asked if he was John List, to which he responded, no.
They noted that he responded so quickly like he was expecting the question.
Right.
Oh, are you John List?
Nope.
No, I'm not.
Don't know who that is.
Never heard of him before in my life.
Right, exactly.
They began searching Bob's person, and then they asked, quote, you're John List, aren't
you?
And, quote, he told them once again that he was Robert Clark.
He would be taken into custody without incident and allowed all of the booking processes,
such as fingerprinting, DNA, et cetera, whatever they had back then.
Fingerprints were able to correctly identify the man as being John List, the perpetrator
of five murders committed 18 years prior.
That's absolutely wild.
Imagine being those officers.
You're like, oh my gosh, like we actually got him.
Well, and then what luck that it happened to be the first place they checked out.
And thankfully they didn't just take Dolores's word for it and just be like, oh, is your
husband John List?
No.
Okay, have a nice day, ma'am.
Or who knows, if he was there, he could have tried to attack them, like shoot them or harm
them or flee or something.
Right.
It could have been deadly for a lot of people.
Well, and even her, they leave her alone and then she confronts him later that night
about his true identity and she ends up murdered.
Right.
And the trial actually, Dolores would continue to insist that her husband was not John List.
Even though she had seen all the evidence, she was still undeniable.
Yeah.
Nobody wants to believe that.
Right.
John would plead not guilty on the charges of five counts of first degree murder and
his bail would be set at $1 million while he awaited extradition to New Jersey.
Gosh, this guy got away with it for 18 years.
You think you're scot-free for the rest of your life that way?
Shit, that's a long time.
That's a long time.
Surprisingly, John would agree to be extradited but would not agree to be referred to as John
List.
He wanted to be called Robert Clark.
Okay.
By the end of June, Bob John was back in New Jersey for the first time since 1971.
Bob John.
His court-appointed attorney, Elijah Miller, argued that the compilation of John's financial
issues, marital issues, problems with his mother and daughter, and more, were the factors
that led him to doing what he thought was right.
He further suggested that since Helen was already very sick, John thought he was going
to give her mercy by allowing her soul to reach heaven.
Obviously, not a really good defense, but pretty much all he has.
It's not a great defense.
If it is just the mother, then why not his mother and the kids as well?
I mean, that doesn't make any sense.
A court-appointed psychiatrist testified that John suffered from obsessive-compulsive personality
disorder.
Oh, hi.
Hi.
Looking in the mirror?
What you got going on in there, huh?
And due to this personality disorder, he only saw two solutions to his situation, except
welfare or kill his family.
Well, I mean, he's not going to accept charity.
Yeah.
That's beneath him.
He owns a 19 room mansion.
And they thought that he essentially was too proud to accept welfare and admit that he
was failing financially and needed some assistance.
So his solution was to just kill his family.
Again, we're looking at the lens of what years this is that he's caught.
No, well, 98, 89.
89.
We're looking at the lens of almost the 90s, not when he perpetrated the crime.
Exactly.
If we were to look through the lens of when he perpetrated the crime, he would have gotten
the electric chair.
Nobody would have said, oh, it's because of this.
It's because of a mental disorder.
It's because of the pressure he felt.
Nobody would have, no, he just would have been a monster.
That's true.
I didn't even realize that OCPD has been around for that long as a diagnosis.
On April 12, 1990, John List would be convicted of five counts of first degree murder.
At his sentencing, he denied responsibility for his actions, stating, quote, I feel that
because of my mental state at the time, I was unaccountable for what happened.
I ask all affected by this for their forgiveness, understanding their prayer, end quote.
The judge would respond, quote, John Emil List is without remorse and without honor.
After 18 years, five months and 22 days, it is now time for the voices of Helen, Alma,
Patricia, Frederick, and John F. List to rise from the grave, end quote.
Hell yeah.
I love when the judge like claps back.
Hell yeah.
The judge would then hand down five life sentences to be served consecutively.
Helen's sister would also have a chance to confront John during the hearings, asking
him why he did what he did.
John responded, quote, because there was no other way, end quote.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, there was.
That's such a cop out.
Literally just pack a bag and leave if you're embarrassed.
It's silly.
He didn't want the trail.
He didn't want to leave and then still have to like, quote, unquote, deal with his family.
He wanted to just be scot-free and be like, oh cool, I can start another life.
Yeah, pay the child support, pay alimony, and then take care of an ailing mother.
He's selfish.
John would file an appeal of his convictions on the grounds that his judgment had been
impaired by PTSD from his military service.
He gets a diagnosis and then all of a sudden it's like, that's this crunch.
But not all people who are diagnosed with this murder people.
So, I mean, it's not a loophole.
It's not just, yeah, oh, sorry, I meant to leave.
No, that's not how it works.
John also argued that the letter left behind at the scene, essentially his confession,
was only supposed to be between him and the pastor, and that was confidential.
So you couldn't use that for evidence.
It's not.
It's not confidential.
You murder someone.
You're not going to be open.
Yeah.
Both appeal requests were denied.
In 2002, John List would eventually express a degree of remorse for his crimes, stating,
quote, I wish I had never done what I did.
I've regretted my action and prayed for forgiveness ever since, end quote.
When John was asked why he did not just take his own life rather than taking the lives of
his whole family, he stated that he did not do so because that would be a mortal sin and
then he would not be able to go to heaven with his family.
Okay, that's a murder.
A mortal sin.
Yeah.
Times five.
I don't.
Yeah.
All right.
On March 21st, 2008, John Amiel List would die from complications from pneumonia at the
age of 82.
Too good.
That's the whole story.
Wow.
Yeah.
This is a very entertaining case.
Thank you for bringing that.
Yeah, absolutely.
I started researching it and I was like, I didn't really know much about it.
And then as I was going through it, I was like, oh my gosh.
Like I found so much really good information.
And I'm going to, of course, link all those sources and the show notes because I definitely
want to give credit to the people that were super detailed when they did their research
and it helped me do my research.
But yeah, really, really great case.
Thanks Becca for the recommendation.
Hope we did it justice.
And yeah, OCPD, by the way, if anyone doesn't know, that is not a disorder that typically
is associated with crime or any violence.
I thought that was really interesting that he was diagnosed with that.
And then that was what they were trying to use, especially the professionals trying to
use that.
But again, it was the early nineties.
Again, I think that was a very new personality disorder that was newly developed, not newly
developed, but newly described, I guess, in that time.
So maybe they did think that it was like antisocial or narcissistic personality disorder.
Yeah, similar to other personality disorders.
And then being, as it is, like just over explaining maybe, trying to get the jury to understand
maybe certain aspects from professionals that might not have known too much about it at
the time.
So blind leading the blind there, perhaps.
So the good news is we are continuing to find advancements in not only forensic technology
for criminal cases, but mental health development and research and stuff like that.
So I think it'll only get better with the accuracy of cases like this.
And hopefully in the future we can limit cases like this with treatment early on.
Anything else?
Nope, that's it.
Okay, well thanks for joining us for another case.
We'll see you guys next week.
Okay, love you.
Bye.
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