Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, The Mental Breakdown.
I'm Kenna.
And I'm Quelle.
I had to like whisper that because my voice kind of went out.
Mental Breakdown!
How's it going?
Pretty good.
It's been a while.
It's been a while?
Yes, it has.
Oh no.
I love that song.
No, it hasn't been a while since we recorded because if the listeners know, we did that three-parter,
but we recorded it all in advance because I was gone.
And we also recorded our latest Patreon episode in advance.
So we really haven't sat down together in probably three weeks.
It's so true.
It feels weird.
I know.
It does feel weird.
I always have to get the feel again and get the flow.
I always get nervous when we sit back down after a while.
Today, I do have a cool mental breakdown that I like to talk about, but would you like to give everyone our social media handles?
Oh my gosh, it's been so long. I forgot.
You can catch us anywhere on social media at Diagnosing a Killer other than ex-formally known as Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.
We also have a PayPal, Venmo, Cash App if you would like to support us monetarily.
We also have a Patreon, Tier 1 members get ad-free mental breakdown episodes.
Tiers 2, 3, and 4 get all access to all ad-free episodes.
And then of course our 3 and 4 tier Patreon members also get that added bonus episode once a month, towards the end of the month.
Yeah.
Yeah, this most recent one, Episode 12, we've gotten some really different and interesting feedback on it because it was just a particularly brutal case.
And while our Patreon members know what they're getting themselves into, of course that doesn't discount the brutality of that case.
So if you want to join those Patreon members and get that extra content that is nowhere else besides Patreon, join that tier 3 and 4 and it takes just a few minutes to sign up.
Yeah.
Before we get started with this mental breakdown, I do have just a couple of Instagram messages that I'd like to read.
So first one is from a listener saying, Hey, just wanted to reach out all the way from Scotland. I'm a true crime fanatic and came across your podcast last year. I'm obsessed.
I love your take on the cases and I love your mental health breakdowns. I've just become a Patreon and I'm binging all your bonus episodes as I type.
You girls make me smile when I'm listening to you, even though some of the stuff I hear is horrific.
If interested, there's a case of a serial killer called Robert Black. He was Scottish, who lived all over the UK. I've never heard a case about him and would love your take.
I'm currently doing a criminology and psychology degree, so I absolutely adore how you bring in the why and background cities cases.
Big love and I can't wait to hear part 2 of Fred and Rose West. All my love from sunny Scotland.
Aww.
So sweet.
I love that. And I think I saw on the Patreon, it came across in pounds instead of dollars. I was like, Who is that?
I was like, What a move.
And then we got the message. So it was perfect. But thank you very much. We love, love hearing. Of course, all of our listeners reaching out to us.
But across the pond is just so cool to me. We have listeners all over the UK. So thank you guys.
I think that's really cool to be able to support us through Patreon from other forms of currency.
Right.
That's wild. I didn't realize that that's something that Patreon did.
I didn't either. And I don't know what the difference is because I know we have, I think we have like one or two other Patreon members that are from, not from America, but it comes across as dollars. I don't know if it was converted.
Yeah.
Or I don't know.
Hmm.
The world may never know.
Either way, thank you. And we hope that you are enjoying those bonus episodes.
And the next one, we have another listener from the UK that sent us a message saying, Hello. I very much enjoy your podcast. I'm in the UK and was around 10 years old when Fred and Rose were caught.
I enjoy your telling of the crimes. A few things you might want to know. Fred was appointed an appropriate adult as he was deemed as a vulnerable adult.
Remember how we were saying like, I don't know. I guess it's just a British thing. Everyone gets one.
Yeah.
Apparently it's just for people that are considered vulnerable.
They continue, there is a British drama based on the appropriate adult appointed to Fred. The UK does not have the death penalty.
So they actually refer to first names as Christian names. So whatever it was, Jennifer, we were like, I didn't realize that was in the Bible. It's not.
It's just what they call their first names.
I was like, Seth is in the Bible. That's pretty cool.
You're right.
The message goes on dancing on ice is like dancing with the stars, but as figure ice skating. So cool.
That's really cool. I'd watch that.
Rose will never be released due to be given a whole life order.
In 2004, legislation was changed due to the wording of unlawful sex and replaced with legislation called the Sexual Offences Act 2003.
Under the legislation, there is child sex offenses. So when the son got arrested for unlawful sex, it was sexual assault.
I thought it was statutory.
I see.
And then lastly, anyone over the age of 18 engaging with children under 16 will be declared pedophiles or rapists.
They go on, I hope I haven't caused any offense. I'm a mature law student, so I'm happy to look at any laws for you.
Well, we appreciate that.
Yeah, we could always use that.
Absolutely. And we never take any offense to people, especially educating on things that we are open about not knowing about.
We didn't grow up over there. We don't know all this stuff. I actually really appreciate that.
When I do come across a case that's outside of the United States, there are some things that I'm like, I don't know what the heck that means.
And I can't even research what that means. I can't find a description. So thank you very much for that message.
And of course, we respond to all of you guys.
Thanks for the messages, y'all.
I think that is all I have. Do you have anything else before we get started?
No.
Okay.
Oh, wait, wait, wait. I'm hungry.
Okay, me too.
Okay.
Just to let everyone know.
So today, we are going to be talking about an organization known as Bikers Against Child Abuse,
aka BACA.
Yes.
Oh, I'm excited.
Bikers Against Child Abuse is a nonprofit charitable motorcycle organization that exists worldwide.
And I'm going to refer to it as BACA because it's a long title.
BACA was founded in 1995 by one John Paul or Chief Lilly in Provo, Utah.
John Lilly is a registered recreational therapist and licensed clinical social worker who saw a number of horrific child abuse cases throughout his work.
One particular story, however, the story of a traumatized eight-year-old seems to be the reason behind his founding of BACA.
He's also a biker, clearly.
Yeah.
No, he learned how to ride motorcycles just for this.
Yes, for this.
John was known as coming from a broken home himself, but he always had positive interactions with bikers as a child.
So he was quick to take the opportunity to make a positive impact in children's lives.
John would take the young eight-year-old under his wing and introduce them to the circle of bikers that he was a part of.
That's like a little tiny member.
It's a little baby.
Slowly over time, John's idea grew and more and more young people were coming to hang out with him and his biker friends.
The group got so big that John would ultimately turn it into BACA, eventually turning it into a nonprofit organization that has hundreds of members worldwide.
Every time I think of this organization, I just think of all of them with their arms crossed just look at like a real intimidating.
Like what are you going to do? You're going to fuck with some kids?
Yeah.
You've got to get through us first.
Exactly.
I love those photos.
The second statement of the organization is as follows.
Quote,
Bikers against child abuse exist with the intent to create a safer environment for abused children.
We exist as a body of bikers to empower children to not feel afraid of the world in which they live.
We stand ready to lend support to our wounded friends by involving them with an established United Organization.
We work in conjunction with local and state officials who are already in place to protect children.
We desire to send a clear message to all involved with the abused child that this child is part of our organization
and that we are prepared to lend our physical and emotional support to them by affiliation and our physical presence.
We stand at the ready to shield these children from further abuse.
We do not condone the use of violence or physical force in any manner.
However, if circumstances arise such that we are the only obstacle preventing a child from further abuse,
we stand ready to be that obstacle.
And this is like, I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt on your end quote.
But yeah, I think this is also one of those situations where it's not just writing around spreading awareness.
It's, they're out there in the public and if they see something that they don't like, they're going to say something.
Of course.
Yeah, that they've agreed to be a part of that, that kind of a, not just like a, I wouldn't say like a system but an accountability, right?
Absolutely.
An accountability towards each other that this is your mission statement and this is what you will continue going forward.
Absolutely.
And it's not like, they're like, oh, you're one of us now, like call us if you need us.
It's like, no, we are like available.
Let us know we will come like, and they're like, you're not going to fuck with this child.
Like this is our friend, you know?
Yeah.
The organization leans into the stigma surrounding bikers as strong, aggressive, mean and menacing to its advantage
and show their presence to ward off potential threats to children they are protecting.
BACA group members are in many different countries around the world,
consisting of the United States, Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Spain, France, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Netherlands, New Zealand, Austria, Portugal, Switzerland, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
Can you imagine all the different accents?
Don't fuck with me, Brogue.
Wait, what?
I had to pause.
Brogue is the accent.
Don't fuck with me, boy.
It's what I meant to say.
Don't fuck with me, boy.
But no, that's fucking badass.
That's pretty cool.
I know.
I love that.
And then be able to recognize that that's what's so cool is like, we've definitely, here in the United States and Texas,
seen people with backpatches and stuff like that on their vests, and it's kind of cool.
It's like, aw, that hardened looking biker man loves children.
Right.
You know?
Like, it's just, it's really cool.
It's really cool.
An unique way to advocate for children.
Yeah, absolutely.
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So how does BACA work?
They are organized with a central contact official that receives calls from referring agencies and others.
The child's case is evaluated, and if it's determined that the child is still frightened by their environment,
a call is then placed to BACA.
The information of the child is given to the proper liaison, and they get in contact with the family that the child is with,
and organize a meetup at either the child's home or another safe environment.
The child then meets with a member of the organization, and upon arrival is given a vest with a BACA patch sewn on the back.
Oh my god.
The child is usually also offered bumper stickers and other keepsakes from the organization.
The initial visit generally lasts about half an hour, but following this,
the child is given the name and phone numbers of two BCBA members who then become the child's primary contacts.
Of course, each member of the organization are screened with background checks,
and the members who are determined to be the primary contacts typically live closest to the child.
Additionally, the members who are chosen also need to have been with the organization for at least a year,
and have received special instructions and training by a licensed mental health professional.
Dang, they're like, throw.
And yeah, they're legit. They're not just going to say, oh, we have some Josh Mo off the street wants to join the organization.
We're just going to throw him in with a kid.
They want to know that this person is genuinely there for the right reasons, and they have training necessary.
It reminds me kind of of, I mean, on a small scale, that they have organizations or, I guess,
programs that dads can participate in in public school environments.
I don't know about private schools, but at least the school that my kiddo goes to.
And the dads just, when their time to other kids that might not necessarily have a father figure in their life.
And so, yeah, they're called watchdogs.
That's cool.
And so, yeah, and so, you know, the dads can volunteer their time during recess or whatever it is and kind of, you know, they go through, like you said,
like a screening process and all this other stuff to make sure that everything's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, but they lend their support and attention to maybe kids that won't have father figures.
Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. And then just have like a positive male influence in the life.
Anytime the child feels scared and feels the need for the presence of the members, they can call the bikers and they will show up for the necessary reassurance and protection of the child.
BACA members also support children by providing escorts to and from school if they feel unsafe, driving around their home on a regular basis to provide extra comfort,
attending any interviews regarding the investigation if there is one ongoing,
supporting the children at court and parole hearings, and generally staying anywhere where the child does not feel safe.
I think that's really cool. It's like having your own personal bodyguard or something.
Yeah. Or two of them.
Yeah.
The BACA members never go into the child's home alone or without parents' permission or knowledge.
The members also make it clear to the child and the family that they are not intended to be the only choice for protection,
but they are available for additional support for as long as the family needs.
So they make it pretty clear like this isn't our fix.
This is our support when you need it and while you need it.
But we also want to encourage you to reach out for other means of support such as family therapy maybe or different types of things that can also help.
Yeah. Calling 911 when there's an emergency and not just being like, you know, my ex-husband showed up on my property.
Can you come over here and kick his ass? You know, nothing like that.
Along with the protection factor, the BACA also hosts get-togethers and barbecues with the community.
There are two levels that the organization offers when it comes to being that protection factor for the child and family.
Level one intervention consists of deploying a ride with as many group members as possible to the child's home,
where the parents then allow the group to present the child with the vest, stickers, goodies, etc.
They encourage the child to use the phrase, quote,
I am not alone and you don't want to mess with my family, end quote, should they ever find themselves in a scary situation?
Whoa.
I'm going to fuck with my family.
If level one intervention does not seem to be working for a particular case, level two intervention will then be offered.
In level two, a group of members will create a presence at the home of the child,
making sure they are visible at the time when the family members may feel the most vulnerable.
The purpose of the members being present at the home is to deter any further abuse to the family or child.
So we also spoke about how the members attend court hearings with the child as well.
The organization explains that the reasoning behind their presence in court is to assist the child in being less intimidated,
afraid, and subsequently give an accurate testimony regarding the abuse.
That's so true because they're also being examined, cross-examined, all this stuff by potential defense attorneys or prosecuting attorneys.
And yeah, that can be really intimidating.
Like you said, you're the only child potentially in a room full of adults.
And who's to say there's not someone in the courtroom that is going to try to intimidate you by looking at you?
I would say, for example, the abuser is your uncle. What if his wife's in the courtroom, even though he's not allowed to be?
What if she's there and she's like crossing her arms looking at you like you better not fucking say anything or whatever?
Or older cousins or whatever it might be.
So it's also up to the child if they do want to have the members with them in court.
And if they request for them to do so, then their parent needs to contact their attorney who would then intercede on behalf of the child to the judge.
So all of them are like a part of it, like the attorney, the family, and the organization.
I would think that there would have to be some type of, like you said, like legality when it came to that.
Like the parents requesting the attorney to then request it, you know, so that there's more of a paper trail.
It's not just Homeboy shows up, show up and intimidate the judge.
Push the judge around a little bit.
In addition to all of these things, the BACA also holds worldwide mandatory meetings which are open to the public and also do other things to gain awareness in their community.
Where'd you go?
I know. I think that would be really cool.
That would be really cool.
To just pop in on one.
Yeah.
They also typically host the most awareness and fundraising events in the month of April as that is actually Child Abuse Awareness Months.
Some chapters of the group will even hold balloon releases to commemorate abused and or deceased children.
John Lilly and another member of the group by the name of D. C. Ray actually conducted a self-published study of the success of the group.
In the study, John states that the BACA has received respect and support from the four largest motorcycle clubs in the United States.
Those are the Banditos, the Hell's Angels, the Pagans, and the Outlaws.
Wow.
They're all on their feet like, hell yeah, fuck child abuse.
Yeah.
You know which everyone should say.
Right.
Of course.
Yeah. No, that's not funny at all.
It's not funny at all.
It's like dead ass like fuck child abusers.
It's dead ass.
Yeah.
The study also states, quote, although we are cautious in interpreting causation due to nature of single group design, it is evident that child emotional and behavioral improvement occurred during the time that the children were involved in BACA intervention.
However, it should be noted improvement also correlated with children's temporal distance from the crisis situation, end quote.
So essentially they're saying like they were part of the children being more comfortable and getting more, you know, arrests and stuff like that.
But also the children, child just being away from the abuser also could have caused that and did.
So a famous case surrounding the BACA is one of Jan Brogurg Felt.
She was an actress who had previously been kidnapped twice by a man named Robert Ursel Birchtold.
Jan was visiting a college in Utah with her mother for their annual women's conference when 15 BACA members offered to escort Jan and provide their services as security.
Hell yeah.
The reason for this approach was that Jan was in the process of releasing a book about her personal story of being kidnapped and she had received threats from Birchtold that if she did, he would harm her.
How does he have the ability to send her correspondence and harm her?
Out.
Yes.
So Jan would take the BACA up on their offer and the conference took place without incident for a while.
However, Birchtold actually showed up at the conference and approached BCBA member Les Watson and asked him to hand out literature to some of the attendees.
When Les hesitated to read over the literature before passing them out, Birchtold got angry and threatened him. He was like trying to get him away from Jan.
Yeah.
Les then responded by stating that he was not going to be passing out the papers and told another BACA member to call the police.
Birchtold stormed off at this point, returning to his vehicle.
He did not leave, however, and was noted as revving his engine aggressively while he simultaneously drove straight towards Les striking him.
No way.
Les was hit by the vehicle but was able to hang onto the hood for over 100 feet while Birchtold continued to drive.
Oh my god.
Birchtold would brandish a gun at this point and Les jumped off the moving vehicle in order to avoid being shot.
Les would escape with his life but not without BACA and leg injuries.
A witness was also able to provide police with a license plate of the vehicle which led to Birchtold being charged with simple assault, criminal trespassing, and disorderly contact.
Not a tinted murder.
It was like what I was thinking.
He would later be released.
Three days later.
No mental ill of eval at all.
So going back to the BACA, according to their website, there are a number of different patches that one can have on their vest as a member.
Red represents the quote, bloodshed by wounded children, white represents the quote, innocence of the children, black represents the quote, dark times the child goes through, the fist represents quote, our commitment to stop child abuse,
the skull and crossbones is a symbol to the quote, death to child abuse, and the chains represent quote, our united organization, that's all on their website.
That's interesting.
I like that.
Yeah, and there's different, I mean, I love that there's so many different meanings that are so important to their, you know, goal.
If you would like to donate to the organization, you can actually PayPal them at BACA International Inc.
Or you can visit their website at BACAworld.org.
But that is Bikers Against Child Abuse.
That's really interesting.
It was just something that I had on my list, I think I saw, honestly, like a tick talk about it, and they were just like very briefly talking about the organization.
I was like, that's fucking cool.
I want to talk about that.
That's cool.
I know recently we had a case that we talked about having an advocate for the children.
I think that one's called Guardians of the Children that we did talk about a while ago, but it's kind of the same thing they have, like, it's a court advocate.
So this is a little similar, but of course it goes above and beyond just the court.
It's like, they're an advocate outside, at school or wherever they need them to be.
I just think that's really awesome.
And just the fact that there's so many people that are part of this organization is, it gives me hope for the world.
Yeah, I think we've definitely seen that here in South Texas, people wearing the patches on their vests and stuff.
But that was way more in depth.
So yeah, certainly learned something.
Thank you.
Thank you guys for joining us.
If anybody that knows anyone in that organization or is part of the organization is listening, thank you so much for everything you do.
And share this information with people.
This is really important stuff, and that's why I wanted to bring it, even though it was a little mini mental breakdown, I think it was important to bring up.
And I think it's also important to kind of break the stigma as it pertains to motorcyclists and clubs that people can join and support each other in a really good cause.
For sure.
Absolutely.
Well then we will see you guys Thursday, unless you have anything else.
I don't think so.
Okay, well then we'll see you guys later.
Bye.
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