Hello! Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Kenna.
And I'm Koel.
And I'm Kenna.
Oh no.
And he said that he is willing to give them a full confession and that he should be arrested for Heather's murder.
So that's where we left off.
Oh he said that? He said I should be arrested for her murder.
Content warning. This episode contains depictions of the brutal deaths of children, incest, bestiality, graphic sexual and physical abuse of children, graphic descriptions of illegal medical procedures, serious symptoms of mental illness, grooming of young children, suicide, dismemberment of adults and children after death, and necrophilia.
If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes. Remember your mental health is very important and we love you.
Bye!
I don't know about you, I don't strangle people out of anger, but I don't know.
Someone's tried to strangle me out of anger.
Oh gosh.
Jesus Christ.
You know, I'm not saying it's impassable.
So this strangling would result in Heather passing away and Fred would do the next logical thing and dismember her body with a heavily serrated knife.
Yeah, because that's where your mind goes too, right? Like, oh, she tried to, like I strangled her out of like anger, self-defense or whatever it might be, but I'm just going to go ahead and dismember her.
Like that makes sense.
That makes so much sense to me.
Mm-hmm.
Fred went on to explain that he then stored Heather's remains in a nearby trash can while he waited for an opportunity to bury her in the garden.
He said he needed-
Yeah, that's another step that you have to take, right?
Exactly.
Yeah, like why take the next step?
He said he needed to keep this a secret because Fred insisted that Rose had no knowledge of what happened to Heather as she was busy during this argument.
So he's like, I needed to hide her body because I didn't want Rose to find her because I didn't want her to know about this at all.
Okay.
Fred would also add that the only reason the search team had not yet found Heather's remains is because they had been excavating the wrong part of the garden.
So he like was like, oh I'm going to point over there.
Right.
And in an even more strange turn of events, Fred would tell police that he'd be happy to lead them to the exact location of where Heather was buried.
So it's like, why are you all of a sudden like about to confess like you're ready to do it?
I know why.
Okay, go ahead.
Okay.
May and Stephen would quickly be informed by authorities of what Fred had confessed.
And in response, Stephen was noted as slumping against a wall and sobbing.
Aw.
Fred would be struck with complete shock and even tried to correct authorities telling them that there was no way Fred was responsible for the death of Heather.
It's just like again, right, they're so abusive, but the children are just so in like they just, they still love them and they trust them, right?
They want to protect them.
Yeah.
So the following day after the confession, police would begin excavation of the part of the garden that Fred had led them to.
By the afternoon, authorities had come across a human thigh bone that was sticking out from one section of the garden that Fred insisted police need not look in.
He's like, no, you don't need to go there.
Don't need to remind that.
You're only here for one person, right?
You don't have, you know, you don't have the legal right to be searching my whole damn house.
Just the spot I'm leading you to.
On the other side, authorities excavating the area that Fred pointed out discovered a mess of human remains as well that were encased in a trash bag.
These remains would be taken back to the station for examination and it was quickly determined that they were the remains of a young woman and it was noted that the fingernails of the deceased woman were missing.
This suggested that police, this suggested to police, excuse me, that there must have been a struggle or they were removed prior to her death, most likely via torture, which is fucked up.
Several hours later, the police would positively ID the remains as those of Heather West.
Okay, so they were like, okay, this is Heather.
Although police had Fred West in custody for the murder of Heather, authorities back at the home had discovered an additional two thigh bones leading the police to set up another round of questioning for Fred.
He's like, wait a second, there's more.
But wait, there's more.
It's terrible, but like, that's yeah, it's probably what he's thinking like, oh, if I just lead them to Heather, then I'll only go away for one murder, right?
And then they won't have to look for anything else.
Yeah.
Fred would willingly divulge that there were two additional victims naming one of them as Shirley Robinson.
He told police that Shirley was a former tenant at the home and was a lesbian who had been very heavily pregnant with his child at the time of her murder in 1978.
Yeah, but she's a lesbian.
Yeah, no, yeah, she especially, especially wouldn't touch this guy on purpose at least.
Fred would go on to tell police that the other thigh bone belonged to quote Shirley's mate and quote, but he did not reveal the identity of this person.
So he's just trying to explain it away like, oh, I killed her and her lover or whatever.
But I don't know her name, her name, her lesbian lover.
Yeah.
Fred would formally be charged with both of these additional murders on March 2, 1994.
Due to the fact that police had located three sets of remains in the garden, a warrant was issued and approved to excavate the entire property.
Yeah, duh, like, I mean, why not?
Where there's smoke, there's fire.
Mm-hmm.
Meanwhile, Rose would be placed in a safe house in a town nearby and Fred would continue to be questioned over 16 hours each day about the whereabouts of his first wife, Rita and his stepdaughter, Charmaine.
They're like drilling his ass.
During one of these rounds of questioning, Fred would tell his solicitor or legal advisor to pass a handwritten note to the leader of the investigation, Superintendent John Bennett.
So they call them solicitors in the U.S.
Isn't John Bennett the guard from Orange is the New Black?
Oh, Orange is the New Black?
Just go ahead.
And that's like such a, like, like, did you ever watch Lost?
Either way, they never explain where the polar bears come from for the most part.
That's the whole thing is like they never explain the polar bears.
Like they never explained John Bennett.
Like I was for sure thought the last season, like he would have come back or whatever.
It just pisses me off that like we loved Bennett so much and he turns out to be this giant pussy who doesn't want to take care of his kid.
Me too.
I liked him a lot.
So again, Fred, Fred.
Yeah, Fred actually is that's why I thought it was Fred.
This is the third episode and I'm like still messing up his name.
So Fred was like, I'm not going to talk to this John Bennett.
I'm going to have my legal advisor do all my communication for me, but I'm going to write a note and I'm just going to have my advisor pass it over for me.
So he's still like communicating, you know, verbatim, but he's just not talking out loud.
So this note dated March 4th, red quote, I Frederick West authorized my solicitor Howard Ogden to advise Superintendent Bennett that I wish to admit a further approximately nine killings expressly Charmaine,
Rena, Linda Gao and others to be identified signed F West end quote.
And that was a typo.
It's Linda cough.
I'm sorry.
Her last last name is not.
But he was just like, yeah, I did it online.
Yeah.
And why couldn't you just say that out loud?
You should have just said that from the beginning.
You're dumb.
It would have saved us all a lot of trouble and digging.
Right.
Yeah.
So authorities would continue their questioning of Fred, hoping to gain insight on these new murders he was now confessing to.
Fred would calmly explain to police that most of the victims he claimed to have killed were hitchhikers or girls he picked up at bus stops.
Initially, Fred claimed that six victims had been killed when they threatened to tell Rose of his infidelity and that he had taken their bodies to the West home to abuse, dismember and bury in the garden.
Fred claimed the only reason that he dismembered his victims was to make it easier to bury them in shallow graves.
But how to see.
Fred would then tell police that he would take them to those specific spots in the garden as well to find these new victims.
So he's kind of admitting that, okay, but he's essentially saying that these people are essentially people he cut.
His phrasing is weird, I guess.
It sounds like he doesn't care about these people.
When in actuality, the people that he's killing are people that he's slept with or his children or his, you know, or his wife's girlfriends or whatever it is, you know, like, it's just interesting that it just sounds like he's like, oh, well, like they weren't,
he just makes it sound like he's phrasing it like they're not good people.
Like he's like, oh, they're just people that like, you know, I was trying to cover my tracks and, you know, it's just, I don't know.
Yeah, I think that maybe a lot of it was like he abducted these women and then he sexually assaulted them and then he's trying to say like, well, I sexually assaulted them, but like I was gonna let them go.
And then they were like, well, we're gonna tell your wife that we had sex or whatever.
Like he doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
So over the next few days from March 3rd to 5th, 1994, police would uncover six further bodies of young females at the West Home.
Each victim had been extensively mutilated and each body showed evidence of being subjected to extreme sexual abuse prior to the murders.
And I'm so sorry.
I know I just said a second ago that it was a typo, that it was Linda Gao and it was Linda Koff.
I said Linda Koff in the first part, I think.
That was a typo.
So her last name is Gao, like G-O-U-G-H.
Just want to make sure that's clear.
Which is the name?
I know.
I just want to make sure that's clear because I definitely don't want to disrespect one of the victims.
So I don't want to make sure that's clear.
Right.
It is Linda Gao and she actually gets brought back up here.
Her body was actually discovered here.
When it was discovered, her jaw was noted to be completely wrapped in adhesive and surgical tape, most likely to silence any screams.
Cheers.
And two small tubes were found.
Police think that these were likely inserted into her nose to help her breathe because her mouth was covered.
Very, very often.
Jesus.
Yeah.
Long sections of string and knotted fabric were also found suggesting that she had been suspended from the beams in the cellar like other victims.
And it was determined that Linda likely died of suffocation or strangulation.
Oh my God.
I know.
Linda's dismembered body was also missing five cervical vertebrae.
Not only was her body missing parts of her bone, but it was noted as a theme that all of the bodies found were not completely intact, suggesting maybe he kept pieces or something.
That's what police think.
That's interesting.
Or I mean, I guess he wouldn't be decapitating them.
Yeah, that's interesting that he was, I mean, because if you're going to strangle someone, you can break those bones in your neck.
But yeah.
And the reason I say that too is because when questioned about why the bodies were not a complete set, Fred would refuse to answer.
He didn't want to tell them.
Interesting.
On top of the murders of the victims exhumed from the West Home, we know that Fred also confessed to the murders of Rena and Charmaine.
Fred would also confess to knowing the location of Ann McFauls remains, although he would deny having anything to do with her death.
Because remember, Rose, it was Rose.
Yeah.
Fred would agree to lead police to these spots and the excavations would begin on April 10th.
So it's unclear exactly how Rose became back under police suspicion.
It obviously makes sense that it's the wife, but as far as I know, Fred didn't tell police that Rose was involved in anything.
Yeah.
In some sources, I read that Fred divulged to one Janet Leach that Rose is actually mutually responsible for Heather's death, while other sources stated that police suspected otherwise and arrested Rose on other charges so that they could try to get more information on her.
So yeah, this Janet Leach that I had just mentioned, like I said, once you're in the police, you can't tell the police.
Like I said, one source said that Fred told her that Rose was mutually responsible.
She was appointed as Fred's appropriate adult.
And I think I said this either in part one or part two.
But when you get arrested in the UK, apparently, at least at this time, you got appointed an appropriate adult, which is essentially someone that's there to support you when you go through questioning or anything having to do with the police.
Like it's just like a peer almost.
Not a appointed lawyer.
It's like a.
It's just a regular person.
Well, she's probably part of the legal system, but she's not a lawyer.
She's not a prosecutor, you know, anything like that.
She's just made to just essentially just hang out with him and make sure he's good.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
I think we did talk about that maybe in part two because we were saying or maybe it was another episode, but we were saying that like, yeah, it was part two because it was like children should have someone there with them during things.
Yeah.
An adult can have it, but or children can have it for some reason we need.
We don't have them for adults regularly.
Yeah, but that's interesting.
Yeah.
On April 20th, 1994, police would arrest Rose on offenses relating to the rape charge of Anna Marie and the physical assault of an eight year old charges that she had been acquitted from in the past.
Okay.
So she was already on the radar.
Right.
And then on the day Rose was refused bail and transferred to Puckle Church prison to be held in the maximum security wing.
So police are like, there's no way you didn't have something to do with this.
You know, like, yeah.
Meanwhile, police were doing everything they could to try to build a case against her for at least the murder of Heather.
While in prison, Rose would be questioned more closely about the murders, specifically those of Heather and Linda.
Throughout the questioning and excavations, police were able to pin together substantial evidence that they were confident with.
And Rose would officially be charged with the murder of Linda on April 25th, 1994.
Damn.
While the evidence continued to pile up back at the West home, Fred and Rose would be jointly charged with five counts of murder by May 6th within like less than a few weeks.
Yeah.
When being read the charges, Rose simply replied with quote, I'm innocent and quote to each one.
Fuck off.
Yeah, right.
This same statement would prove to be a theme throughout the nearly 50 interviews investigators did with Rose leading up to her trial.
She's like, I'm innocent.
50?
Yeah.
That's a lot.
Meanwhile, the excavations were still going on and the remains would be located of Rena, Charmaine and Ann McFall.
The autopsy of Charmaine's body determined that her body had been severed at the hip.
Several bones, including finger, wrist, toe and ankle bones were missing from the skeleton, leading to the speculation again that the missing parts were kept on purpose.
Okay, I have a theory.
Does he, because I was thinking I was like, okay, how does he get like her vertebrae bones?
Like that's weird, right?
But like, what if he's digging them up and then collecting them when they're like skeletal?
Because I'm like an animal.
Yeah, that's true.
Because they're buried.
The limbs of the body of Ann McFall had been carefully dismembered and some fingers were missing from the body.
The pregnant teenagers seemed to have her unborn child cut from her body.
Oh my God.
Again, Fred would initially deny that he had anything to do with the murder of Ann, but he would later confess to one visitor following his arrest that he had stabbed her to death following an argument.
Although we know that that's not true.
Yeah.
So he's trying to cover for Rose, I guess?
Or, I mean, trying to cover for the torture, right?
However, Ann's wrists were noted as having sections of dressing gown cords wrapped around them, suggesting that she may have been tied up prior to her murder.
Mm.
Evidence never lies, folks.
That's true.
Dr. Lee.
With the discovery of Rena's body, evidence came out that suggested she may have been restrained and possibly sexually assaulted prior to her murder as well.
Her body was extensively dismembered, placed into plastic bags, and buried close to a cluster of trees about one mile from where she was killed.
Oh my God.
The excavations would come to a close on June 7th, 1994.
Fred would be transferred to Birmingham's H.M. Prison, Birmingham, around this time, and his noticeable depression would force authorities to place a 15-minute interval suicide check on him.
Damn.
That's pretty severe.
I know. Fred and Rose West were both brought before a court in Glaucuster on June 30th, 1994.
At this point, Fred was charged with 12 murders and Rose with nine.
Wild.
It is wild.
When the couple arrived at the court, it was the first time they had seen each other since Fred's initial arrest.
Oh, how romantic.
What is it?
Managing jumpsuits.
Yeah.
When the couple first stood together during the trial, Fred placing a gentle hand on the shoulder of Rose.
Rose had ignored Fred's presence up until this point, and when he placed his hand on her shoulder, Rose visibly winced in discomfort.
Like, fuck you, bitch! We did all this shit together and you're gonna act like you don't even like me?
Yeah.
I know.
I can just see it.
Maybe she had the Stockholm Syndrome.
I don't know.
The trial would actually get stayed and the two would continue to be held in prison to await the convictions.
I'm not sure why, but it didn't nothing happen at this point.
As police attempted to escort Fred out of the courtroom, he would shove away from them an attempt to reach out to Rose,
who again, noticeably wins at his advances.
Just like, get the fuck away from me.
No, no, no, no, no!
Immediately following this court appearance, Fred would be re-arrested on suspicion of murdering Anne McFall,
as he had not been initially charged with this murder.
Fred would be charged officially with this murder on July 3rd, 1994, and appeared in court the following morning.
After returning to jail, Fred would become even more notably depressed.
This was heightened by the coldness of Rose during the first trial, and the fact that she was refusing to return any of the letter correspondence that he had been sending her.
She's like, nope, I can't answer you.
Fuck off.
She's like, I'm sure this is all at the advisement of her defense attorney.
Steven West and Anna Marie West were allowed to visit Fred while he was awaiting trial, and they would take the chance.
Fred would plead with them to tell Rose that he loved her, but again, he would not receive any response from her.
In response to no response, Fred would withdraw his earlier confessions as to having acted alone in some of the murders,
and instead, he would accuse Rose of total culpability in the murders.
That's the culpability I'm covering for.
You ain't gonna talk to me on a ruin your life.
He would then add that in the case of Ann McFall, Rose was the sole murderer, which is the truth.
I don't know why he tried to cover for her.
I'm already on trial for 12 murders, I might as well just add a 13.
That was the one that he had said, well, I didn't do it, but I don't know who did.
I just dismembered her, but now he's saying it's Rose.
But then he did tell, he went and told police between then and now that he did have culpability in it.
And now he's saying, you know what, I lied again.
I didn't. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna take that back.
The year would come to an end and Fred would level out a little bit with his emotions, or so the prison guards thought.
On be known to guards, Fred had spent a few days collecting items such as a blanket and tags he had stolen from laundry bags.
On January 1st, 1995, Fred West would die from intentional strangulation in his cell.
As a suicide watch he was previously on had been lessened.
Oh my God. No, I feel like if you start out like in jail or something like that, I mean, I don't know.
If you start out on suicide watch, you should be on suicide watch until the completion of your trial. That's my opinion.
Here's what I think happened. I think that throughout the holiday season people got comfortable and there was not a lot of staff.
And they decided it's not a big deal. He's been fine this whole time.
Yeah, that makes sense.
A suicide note was located in his cell and the bottom of it read, or sorry, the whole thing read, quote,
Two rows west, Steve and May. Well Rose, it's your birthday on 29 November 1994 and you'll be 41 and still beautiful and still lovely and I love you.
We will always be in love. The most wonderful thing in my life was when I met you.
Our love is special to us. So love, keep your promises to me. You know what they are.
Here we are put together forever and ever is up to you. We loved Heather, both of us. I would love Charmaine to be with Heather and Rena.
You will always be Mrs West all over the world. That is important to me and you. I haven't got you a present, but all I have is my life.
I will give it to you my darling. When you are ready, come to me. I'll be waiting for you, end quote.
Oh my God. Kind of poetic though. I know. Well, the fact that he's like the ultimate test now. Are you going to kill yourself too?
Right. Oh my God.
At the bottom of the note was a drawn gravestone, which also had writing inside of it.
This quoted in loving memory, Fred West, Rose West, rest in peace where no shadow falls. In perfect peace he waits for Rose, his life, end quote.
Oh my God.
Like you think we're going to write that on a headstone for you? No, you're going to get put in the prison cemetery and that's where you're going to be.
With a number. Yeah. Oh my God. I know.
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With Fred being deceased, Rose West would be subsequently solely charged with the murder of Charmaine West.
Just screw it over.
Rose's trial would begin on October 3rd, 1995 at Winchester Crown Court with Mr. Justice Mantell presiding.
Justice Mantell would immediately state that it would be allowed to admit testimony relating to the sexual mistreatment of three women by both Fred and Rose,
which were among the other charges, as it established a pattern of behavior that was repeated in the murders.
Prosecutor Bryan Levinson would begin with an opening statement in which he portrayed Fred and Rose as sex-obsessed, sadistic murderers.
He referred to the victims discovered, stating that they endured, quote,
secrets more terrible than words can express, the victims last moment on earth were as objects of the depravity of this woman and her husband, end quote.
I mean, he's not wrong.
Hell yeah. Not like hell yeah, like that's cool that they did that.
No, but-
Tell them, yeah.
What a recap, yeah, for sure.
Sorry, made a noise.
You're fine.
He would further point the finger at Rose by adding that Fred was incarcerated at the time of Charmaine West's death. That's what it was.
I'm so sorry, not Ann McFall, so now that makes sense.
It's been a while since we did the first two.
Well, that's what it was. Sorry, yeah.
If you go back and you listen to that.
You'll are like, what the hell?
And the gag on another victim had a quote, a feminine touch.
So this is what the prosecution's like, wait, there's a feminine touch.
It was like a silk, it was tied in a certain way.
It was like a silk, kind of saying like that couldn't have been Fred.
He wouldn't have been like that meticulous with it almost.
Yeah, but I mean, what was he doing like Sailor's Knotts and-
Yeah, right.
She's got a pretty red ribbon, like with a red bow.
I mean, that makes sense if it's the only one that doesn't look like the others, right?
Witnesses for the prosecution included lodgers of the West Home,
Rose's mother Daisy and sister Glenece and survivors Anna Marie West, Catherine Halliday,
which was a former lover of the couple, or who was, excuse me,
Carolyn Owens and a woman named Miss A.
Miss A was reportedly sexually assaulted at the age of 14 by Fred and Rose in 1977.
Jeez.
Miss A would describe Rose as the more aggressive perpetrator of the two.
And on top of these testimonies, neighbors would also speak on behalf of the prosecution and state that Charmaine,
in fact, disappeared while Fred was in prison, and Rose was very casual following the disappearance of Heather.
So everyone's like, yeah, no, these motherfuckers are crazy.
Yeah.
Working on behalf of the defense, Richard Ferguson, who immediately tried to discredit the prosecution witness as either motivated by grudges against the Wests
or seeking money for their participation in the trial.
Totally.
Yeah.
Because everybody wants to talk about the fact that they're a fucking sexual abuse victim.
That's just like something that, yeah.
Carolyn Owens, although admitting to receiving money for her testimony, also shared her extreme survivor's guilt, stating, quote,
I only want to get justice for the girls who didn't make it.
I feel like it was my fault, end quote.
I know.
Ferguson would continue his argument, stating that Fred had committed at least one murder that was very similar to those in the present trial before he even met Rose.
He would state that the prosecution's argument was mostly circumstantial, and that Rose was unaware of the extent of Fred's sadism as she was simply promiscuous and naive.
No, I don't think so.
So naive.
She was the one.
You're going to love this.
Against the advice of her counsel, Rose would also testify on her own behalf.
Love when they do that.
Please do that, yes.
Continue to do that.
That's the right move.
Yeah.
If you're a defendant on a murder trial, please testify for yourself because you are yourself, like you're the best character witness, is yourself.
You're your biggest advocate right there.
Do it.
Stand up for yourself.
God.
Please.
Rose was noted as being morose and tearful, but also upbeat and humorous at times.
Like, ew.
She cried as she described herself as a victim of child abuse and rape, who naively married a violent and domineering man.
But she also laughed as she joked about, quote, always being pregnant, end quote, and while describing one victim's, quote, grandfather glasses, end quote.
So you're like laughing at the victims.
She laughed?
Like, ew.
She was like, oh yeah, grandfather glasses.
She likes to dig grandpa with that.
Like, you're on a trial for murder, homie.
Multiple murder.
Whoa.
Rose would go further to state that she did not recall the six victims that were found at the home, and she did not remember much about her alleged assault of Carolyn Owens.
Like, that's a cop out.
It is a cop out.
I mean, she's not, like, I mean, I don't know if they were abusing alcohol or drugs at the same time, but at the same time, like, you're not, we haven't heard necessarily anything about her being drug addled or having substance abuse.
Issues.
So you're telling me you don't remember.
You don't remember sexually assaulting someone?
Like, are you serious?
When shown photos of the victims buried at the home and asked whether she recognized them, Rose was noted as turning bright red and settering no sir over and over.
Rose would continue by stating that she and Fred had lived separate lives at the home, which was inconsistent with other testimony by lodgers about their relationship.
Yeah, they slept together all the time, probably.
Rose would admit that her relationship with Heather was strained most of the time, but she was a lesbian and she was psychologically abusing her other siblings.
Like, why does that keep coming back up?
Why is that?
Why is that the...
But you're honest, she was a lesbian.
How is that defaming someone?
Oh, okay, all is forgiven.
Yeah, you're acquitted.
Okay.
However, Rose stated that regardless of these things, she loved her daughter and had no knowledge of her alleged murder.
The defense would also call to the stand a number of women who claimed to have been attacked by a solo Fred between 1966 and 1975.
The seven...
Sure.
Oh, I just meant sure.
Like, yeah, like, that's probably happened.
Yeah, the seven women would testify that they had recognized their attacker as Fred West when his photo appeared in the media in 1994.
The defense's purpose in this was to show that Fred was indeed capable of committing heinous crimes without Rose.
The thing is, the prosecution never tried to say that Fred wasn't capable of this alone, that they were saying that Rose was as well.
Yeah.
The final...
Because she had murdered someone with her own bare hands too, so, and that was essentially proven because of the bow, right?
So she's clearly capable of also committing these crimes solo.
The final witness to testify at the trial was one Janet Leach, Fred's appointed appropriate adult.
Janet would testify on behalf of the prosecution that while she was working with Fred, he had gradually began to view her as a confidant,
and had confided in her that on the evening prior to his arrest, he and Rose had formed a pact in which he would take full responsibility for the murders.
Duh, duh, duh.
She stated that Fred had described the murders as, quote, some of Rose's mistakes, and, quote, and further divulged that Rose was responsible for the murders of Charmaine and Shirley Robinson.
They're just mistakes.
You know, she's human.
Mistakes happen.
Cut her some slack.
Yeah.
Upon cross-examination, Janet would indicate that she lied under oath about having sold her story to a newspaper, although she was adamant that her testimony was sincere.
So the newspaper thing does not even fucking matter.
She's like, my testimony was sincere.
Yeah.
I might have lied that I made money off the story, but my testimony was true.
Yeah.
While in this cross-examination, Janet would actually collapse and the trial would subsequently be adjourned for six days.
I know.
Oh my God.
Janet would return to complete her cross-examination on November 13th.
After seven weeks of evidence, the judge would emphasize that circumstantial evidence can be sufficient for a guilty verdict and that if two people take part in a murder, the law considers them equally guilty, regardless of which one of them did the actual killing.
Yeah, I appreciate that law.
I think there's other states in the United States that have those laws as well.
I think California is probably one of them.
I think even Texas says that if you commit a crime and someone dies, even if you're the accomplice, even if you're the driver and you were driving someone to go rob a bank, well, that person that robbed the bank shot and killed someone during that.
Even you as the driver are still liable as a murderer because you helped facilitate a crime that was already being committed and a crime in which someone died.
Absolutely.
And so I think that he was also trying to let the jury know, like, look, Jessica's friend is dead does not mean that these murders need to not be convicted for, you know.
Right, of course.
Somebody still needs to be liable for these and especially if she was there.
And she is here.
Like she is liable.
On November 21st and 22nd, 1995, the jury would return unanimous guilty verdicts for all 10 murders.
In response, Mr. Justice Mantell would sentence Rosemary West to life in prison, referring to her crimes as quote, appalling and depraved and quote, and emphasizing that she should never be paroled.
Initially, Rose would be incarcerated at HMP Bronzefield.
Nobody can see me.
Yes, you just, you just, oh, I kicked the scene.
I was like, well, I mean, yeah, checks.
She would later be transferred to HMPrison Newhall where she would continue to protest her innocence.
So while 10 murders were convicted, there are a number of victims that Fred and Rose West are responsible for.
They are known to have committed at least 12 murders between 1967 and 1987, but there are many people who believe there are others who have been murdered at their hands.
Police would go through the nearly 110 hours of tape recorded interviews with Fred over the years, one in which he claimed to have murdered 15 year old Mary Basform in 1968.
Mary was a waitress at a cafe that Fred frequented.
She would be abducted from a bus stop in Glaucuster.
Fred claimed to have picked her up and raped her in his car before burying her body, and police were unable to locate any remains of Mary's.
Her body has actually never been found.
So he didn't, he said that he buried the body, but not necessarily in his backyard like he had been doing with his own love, love.
Yes, and I think this was before he was even like with Rose.
Fred was also noted to have claimed to Janet that there were up to 20 further victims that he and Rose had killed together, quote, not in one place but spread around, end quote.
And his intent was to reveal the location of one victim per year to investigators.
He was trying to keep himself interesting.
But you're not relevant, bro. I mean, you're dead now, but you know.
Well, I think he might have said that too, to avoid the death penalty had even prosecuted, you know.
That's true. Yeah, they still need information from him.
Fred was also known to have divulged information to his son, Stephen, about the fate of his victims buried at the West home.
Fred claimed that he had extensively tortured the victims prior to the murder, but he had not raped them, but instead engaged in necrophilic acts with their bodies at or shortly after the point of death.
He told Stephen this, like, after he was arrested.
Yeah.
But like, his own kid.
He said, you know, he was a terrorist.
Stephen would recount these conversations with investigators stating, quote, he said to me, can you remember helping me dig holes in the garden when you were a kid?
I said, I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember. But he said, we did it together, you know, then he said, that's where the girls were found in the exact holes, end quote.
He made his kid dig the graves that his own sisters essentially would be put into.
He could have gone his whole life without fucking knowing that. Thanks very much.
Jesus.
How have I never heard of this guy? This guy's awful.
For investigators, it is thought that Fred and Rose had many other victims indicating up to 18 other undiscovered victims.
Whoa.
In 2021, police would announce their intentions to excavate the grounds of a cafe in Glauchester in order to look for their remains of 15 year old Mary.
Underneath the cafe?
I'm not sure. It might have been like around it, like in that area, because he had said that he frequented that cafe that she worked at.
I'm not exactly sure how they got that location.
Unfortunately, the search would discover no remains and there have not been any other victims that have been located in this case so far.
So I want to turn back time just a little bit to talk about some of the aftermath of the trials.
So following his death, Fred's body was cremated in Coventry on March 29, 1995 in a funeral that was attended only by his four children.
Wow, I'm surprised even they showed up.
Yeah, the service was just five minutes long and during the service, Red friend Robert Simpson added a reminder to those present that they must quote,
also remember everyone else who has also suffered because of these tragic events, end quote.
So he essentially was like, this isn't just a funeral for you, motherfucker. It's a funeral for all your victims.
For all your shit.
We're burying your shit.
Fred's ashes are believed to have been scattered at the Welsh Seaside Resort of Berry Island, a location he regularly visited as a child.
After the 1994 arrest of their parents, the four youngest West children were given new identities to protect them from negative impact and they all remained in foster care.
Good.
The remains of Charmaine and Rena were cremated in Kettering and at the insistence of Anna Marie, the two shared the same coffin and no roses were allowed to be brought to the service.
Wow.
Why no roses? Oh, roses.
Yeah.
Got it.
Don't fucking give me anywhere near here.
Two weeks after Anna Marie West delivered her testimony in 1995, she would attempt suicide.
Anna Marie would attempt suicide once again in 1999 by throwing herself off of a bridge into a river.
Oh my God.
Anna Marie would be asked in the final trial of Rose why she did not want to testify years prior against her father about the abuse she had suffered.
She stated, quote, my father and stepmother were all I had, end quote.
So even though they were her abusers and horrific, horrific people in her life, that was all she felt she had.
She never had, yeah, she never had a life outside of that.
Like it's probably consumed everything that she is and every thought that she'll ever have.
And I mean, it's shaped her for life.
Like that's all she had.
Steven West is also known to have made a suicide attempt in 2002.
And in 2004, he would be arrested and jailed for nine months for having unlawful sex with a 14 year old girl on multiple occasions.
It kind of seems like it was statutory, like it might have been like he was in a relationship, but he obviously has, he's choosing inappropriate people.
Well, she's 14. What do you mean?
I'm saying he might have been a little bit older, older than 18, but he's choosing an inappropriate partner.
He was arrested for having unlawful sex.
He wasn't arrested for rape or for sexual assault.
I see.
Sexual assault, yeah.
But still, I mean, that is another cycle of, for that abuse cycle, right, is that he was exposed to that at a young age and he doesn't see anything wrong with that, you know.
Exactly.
DC Hazel Savage would be placed upon the annual New Year's Honors List for her investigative work in the West case.
Which I think, I just think that's fun.
I like when the detective gets praised for their good work.
Me too.
The West's house was demolished in October of 1996 with every piece of debris destroyed in order to discourage potential trophy hunters in the area.
Good.
In November of 1996, nearly two years after Fred died, his younger brother John would hang himself in the garage of his home.
At the time of his death, he was awaiting the jury verdict in his own trial for the alleged multiple rapes of his niece Anna Marie and other young girls at the West home.
Well, I mean, I don't know what to say about that.
I'm not going to say anything that would be kind.
Yeah, for sure.
In September of 2001, after many years of appeal attempts, Rose announced her intentions to abandon her efforts to appeal, stating that she would never feel free even if she was released.
As you shouldn't.
She shouldn't.
Anna Marie, May and Steven would visit Rose in prison on a regular basis until 2006 when Rose ceased contact with them following May asking her about her role in the murders.
Rose would justify her decision of cutting contact with her children by stating, quote, I was never a parent then and could never be now, end quote.
Anna Marie would eventually continue visiting her mother in prison.
Another friend of the West worth mentioning is one Terrence Crick.
Terrence had reported Fred to authorities on several occasions during the time he lived in the home.
It was reported that Fred had shown Terrence surgical instruments Fred used to perform abortions and Polaroid photos of victims genitals following the procedures.
Oh my God.
Yeah, this guy.
Post humor humor humorously, right? Still a dick.
Terrence would later tell police that Fred had asked him to assist him in finding pregnant girls so that he could perform abortions upon them.
Like, no.
So it's like a kink.
I think so.
Terrence would later claim that he thought police ignored the reports because Fred was actually a police informant himself.
So he thinks that the police didn't prosecute him after he reported him anonymously because they were like, oh, we don't want to mess with that guy. We get like stuff from him.
We'll just let him continue to do abortions illegally.
The stress and guilt Terrence had felt over the years would ultimately get the better of him.
And in January of 1996, a 48 year old Terrence Crick would be found deceased in his car.
He had intentionally killed himself via carbon monoxide poisoning.
This is lawless.
Why isn't this a Patreon case? I don't understand.
It's too long.
It's lawless.
Yeah.
In 2004, one of the West's youngest children by the name of Barry claimed to have witnessed the murder of his sister Heather.
According to Barry, who was just seven at the time, Fred and Rose had restrained then sexually and physically abused Heather before Rose had repeatedly kicked and stomped on her until she was deceased.
In October of 2020, Barry West would take his own life at the age of 40 by means of overdose.
Like, this is like now four people that have either attempted suicide or been successful with it after this.
I mean, their deaths are on Fred and Rose's hand too.
For years prior to his death, Barry was known to have struggled with drug addiction and psychiatric problems.
When noting Fred's relaxed attitude towards the aspects of his crimes, many members of the investigative team were bothered.
Wanting to understand more, Superintendent John Bennett sought the assistance of a criminal psychologist for an expert opinion on Fred's state of mind.
Psychologist Paul Britton would advise John Bennett that Fred's casual manner indicated that he had committed so many offenses over such a long period of time that he was now indifferent to the acts of torture, mutilation, and murder.
Yeah.
Paul would add that although an offender of this nature usually eventually offends less frequently, Fred would have been unlikely to stop killing altogether.
Rose was thought to have been doomed from the start when her mother underwent electroconvulsive therapy while she was in the womb.
Rose, while maintaining her innocence, has not been so quiet and lovely in prison.
While in prison, Rose would meet and become friends with another notorious killer by the name of Myra Hindley.
Is that her lesbian lover?
Yeah. Myra and her boyfriend Ian Brady were jailed in 1966 after killing five children in what became known as the Moore's Murders.
Myra would receive a life sentence just like Rose.
The two would meet in the 90s and have been said to have quickly become close.
Rose was known to have told a legal representative of hers called Leo Goatley, quote, Yeah, Myra, she's alright, we get on, I want to see how it goes, end quote.
Leo was noted as saying that Rose was, quote, impressed by Hindley's knowledge and ability, end quote.
He would go further in a published book of his to note, quote, Rose's first paramour was the Moore's Murders, Myra Hindley, who happened to be in the hospital wing at HMP Durham at the same time in 1995
and early 1996, end quote.
However, Leo also noted that the women's relationship did not last long, with Rose stating that Myra could be, quote, very manipulative, end quote.
Oh, isn't that your cup of tea kettle meat pot?
Oh, that's rich. Yeah.
Kettle pot, right.
Yeah, exactly.
He told sources, quote, When I visited a few months later, Rose's opinion of Hindley had changed dramatically.
She was saying you have to watch Hindley.
Mind, she is very manipulative, you don't realize it, but she gets you doing stuff for her.
Oh, she's clever, alright.
She's flipping dangerous, that one.
She ain't gonna take me for a cunt again.
And so hurled at the end of the romance, end quote.
I don't remember that part, Mary Potter, do you?
Oh, geez.
So get this, in February of 2019, it was reported that Rose was, quote, dangerously overweight, end quote, at around 250 pounds.
Which is so funny, because us Americans are like 250 pounds, that's really not a lot.
I had to like do the conversion to make sure that it actually was 250 pounds.
Yeah, she gained 250 pounds or she was 250 pounds.
Oh, okay, that's not right.
That's what I'm saying.
I mean, that's heavy, but that's not heavy.
Well, I mean, we don't, I would have to see it before and after photo, I guess.
Right.
So Rose was told by doctors to lose weight or face an early death.
So she chose to do a keto diet.
How do you do that in prison?
Cute.
Come on, Keto.
Yeah, how do you do that in prison?
I don't eat, I don't know.
The same year, the same year, Rose removed out of the prison cell she had been in for a decade after another inmate threatened to kill her.
After being convicted of the murder of three men, prison inmate Joanna Denny stated about the prison location, quote, send me there and I'll fucking kill Rose West, end quote.
Oh, damn.
I'm like, move me out, please, thank you.
Thanks, yeah, I need a protection cell.
In response, prison officials would move Rose to another location and reportedly changed her name to Jennifer Jones.
We know it.
Put me in there and I'll fucking kill Jennifer Jones.
It's not a secret anymore.
Jennifer Jones.
Put me in there, I'm going to get Jennifer Jones.
Yeah.
The other inmates at this prison were reportedly upset about this name change with one stating, quote, Rose thinks the name will give her some anonymity, but there's a lot of anger about it.
She's chosen the new surname because it's so common and the Christian name just because she's always liked it.
Christian name.
Jennifer's a Christian name.
I guess, I don't know.
I haven't heard that one before, but I guess it is.
Me neither.
There's some strange, I mean, there's like Seth is in the Bible, which you think is kind of more of a modern name, but it's not, you know, the biblical name.
It's just funny.
The quote goes on, quote, for her, it's more about getting rid of any association to Fred for good, and quote.
But like, I mean, she's not right.
I'm just saying wouldn't you though?
She's not.
I'm saying, Rose is right.
I mean, Rose isn't right.
Right.
Yeah, she's not.
She's not right.
But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I guess, like, I get like you're changing your name, but are you changing your name to escape Fred or are you changing your name to escape what you did?
Right.
If I was innocent, I feel like it would make more sense.
But yeah.
So just lastly, a silly side note.
I just thought that was so silly.
There is a competition show in the UK called Dancing on Ice and Rose really likes it in 2021.
Is it like Dancing with the Stars?
Yeah, I think so.
In 2021, a source stated quote, Rose is a huge fan.
Every weekend, she clears a slot in her evening to watch the latest episode.
It's a big part of her prison life.
She's for a friend outside prison who she chats to and who makes the call to put a vote in for Rose.
If you were the dancer she was backing, it'd be enough to send a shiver down your spine and quote.
Oh my God.
Could you imagine?
Like, how do you feel about Rose West being your biggest fan?
Like, fucking go away.
I'm sorry Jennifer, whatever.
And this vote is from Rose West.
Yeah, right.
But three hours later, that is the story of Fred and Rose West.
Rose is still alive and she is still in prison.
She won't ever get out hopefully.
But thank you Amy Jane for the duty of a request.
I'm actually not exactly sure.
Yeah, thank you.
Let me look it up really quick actually because I want to know too.
She's 70.
Yeah, that is an absolute wild case.
Oh my gosh, 70 years old.
Yes, I mean she'll be there for life, right?
Oh, hopefully.
That's bizarre.
That is such a wild case and not to know about it.
I mean, I'm not saying the little island over here in the States, but jeez, you know.
Right.
So thank you so much for that request.
I'm so glad you're here and you've listened to all three parts.
Bless you and you guys are the real ones.
Yeah, you love me.
But yeah, I'm so glad.
Can I sit in Alaska still?
Yeah, I'm so glad that we were, I was just going to say, I'm so glad we were able to get all of this recorded before I leave for my trip because it's going to be nice and breezy knowing that I don't have to not worry about you guys, but that I don't feel like, oh my gosh, like we need to do podcast stuff and we didn't do it, you know, as I'm gone, I can just relax and enjoy my vacay and know that the listeners still have content.
Yeah, for sure.
I'm excited to listen back to all these because by the time this airs, the first one still hasn't come out yet.
So I'm excited.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, the first one, it came out today, actually.
Right.
Yeah.
It dropped, oh, I guess at 4pm today, didn't it?
It did.
Yeah.
So it came out a few hours ago.
4pm last Thursday.
Right.
A couple of Thursdays ago.
Two Thursdays ago.
It's funny.
Alrighty.
Well, thank you guys for joining us.
Do you have anything else?
Yeah.
No, that's it.
I need to go watch some puppy and kitten videos as a palette buzzer after this one.
You guys take care of yourselves and we will see you soon with another mental breakdown and episode.
Yes.
All right.
Love you.
Bye.
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