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Hello!

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Hello!

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Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.

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I'm Kenna.

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And I'm Ko-Wow!

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And this is part two of Fred and Rose West, the long-awaited part two.

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As I know, everyone is very excited for Ko-Wow Included.

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It's a heckin' doozy.

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It has been so far.

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Like, it's been pretty crazy.

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We just got into part one and you haven't even heard part two.

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Like, you're hearing this with the listeners.

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And not hearing this technically, but right before them.

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And, you know, it's just one of those cases that just has so much information.

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So we're going to have a part two today.

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And then we're going to tie it all together with a part three next week.

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So we really appreciate you guys' patience.

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But before we get into part two, let's just go ahead and quickly recap part one.

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What do you say?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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So we definitely talked about Fred.

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Fred and Froze's childhoods.

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Fred and Rose's childhoods.

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Fred's family was, you know, typical domineering family.

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The parents, they had a big farm family, you know,

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alleged sexual assault here and there and just really just neglectful

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and abusive household, you know, emotionally abusive.

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Similarly to Rose, hers was very unfortunately heavily sexual abusive household.

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She became very sexualized at a young age and she took that into her teen years

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when she met Fred.

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And I think there, what's their age gap?

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Like 13 years?

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Well, yeah, cause he's in his 30s, right?

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And she's...

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So he was 28 when they met and she was just 15.

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Yeah.

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And then moving forward, they had adopted, well,

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Rose had taken in Fred's child that he had with another woman

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as well as this other woman's child that they had together as well

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and became sort of like a mother figure in her mind to them.

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Not really.

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Unfortunately, this like love abuse continued

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and she would just very quickly begin to abuse those girls as well.

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And at the end of part one, there have been a few deaths.

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One of the daughters has unfortunately passed as well as the ex-wife

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and an old nanny of Fred's.

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I don't want to give too much away.

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If you haven't heard part one, go ahead and listen to it.

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But in part one, at the very end, we were talking about a woman

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by the name of Carolyn Owens.

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She had been employed by Fred and Rose as a nanny to a couple of their kids.

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And then she decided that she was going to go back home after numerous sexual advances

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by the two of them.

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Unfortunately, Rose and Fred were not finished with her

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and they decided to create this plan to abduct her.

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So they figured out where she was hitchhiking.

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They lured her back into their vehicle and promised her

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that they were not threatening.

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They were going to just bring her back to work.

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And unfortunately, that was not the case.

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So the last thing that Carolyn remembered at this last part of one,

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she was knocked unconscious somehow and she woke up in a bedroom at their home

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with one of the kids knocking on the door.

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And Fred coming in saying that if she tried to escape,

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he was going to let his friends sexually assault her.

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And the only reason that she was brought back to the home was for Rose's pleasure.

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And Fred then added that he had killed hundreds of girls before her.

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Boom, boom, boom.

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Very scary.

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So that's where we're picking up right now.

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Again, if you haven't listed a part one, go ahead and listen to it.

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Because there is a lot more information than what I just said.

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But we're going to pick it up right now with part two.

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Content Warning.

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This episode contains depictions of the brutal deaths of children,

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incest, bestiality, graphic sexual and physical abuse of children,

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graphic descriptions of illegal medical procedures,

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serious symptoms of mental illness,

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grooming of young children,

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suicide, dismemberment of adults and children after death,

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and necrophilia.

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If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

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Remember, your mental health is very important and we love you.

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Love you.

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Bye.

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Ready?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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So after this horrifying chain of events,

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Fred and Rose calmly asked if Caroline would return to work as their nanny.

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It's like, oh yeah, okay, just come back and do us some favors,

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even though we've been terrible to you.

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Makes no sense.

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No, honestly, it doesn't make any sense.

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But again, hoping it would gain their trust because she's now learning this couple,

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Caroline would agree and immediately vacuumed the whole house to show like how serious she was.

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She's like, okay, yeah, totally fine.

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Like she's like, please don't kill me.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Yeah.

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Later that day, Caroline and Rose would leave the home and visit Alondra Matt,

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and Caroline would see her chance to escape.

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She would actually escape and make it home safely.

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Hell yeah.

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So honestly, great for her.

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I am not saying that this shouldn't have happened,

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but like fucking Rose, you dumbass.

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Like, oh yeah, we're just threatened you with all this stuff,

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and we're just going to take you out for like an hour.

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It's a very complete place.

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Yeah, but honestly, good thing she did because Caroline did escape and made it home,

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but she was actually initially too ashamed to tell her mother what had happened to her.

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She was like, of course ashamed because she got sexually assaulted, but also that she let these people do this twice.

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Yeah, to the advantage of her twice.

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And again, she didn't let them, like they did it, but in her mind, that's probably how she felt.

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However, Caroline's mother would quickly notice the welts and bruises on her daughter's body and asked her what was going on.

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Caroline would break down and tell her mother the whole ordeal,

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to which her mother would immediately report the entire thing to police.

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And the wasps were actually subsequently charged with assault, indecent assault, actual body harm, and rape.

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Hurray, consequences.

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Body harm, not body harm.

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Right, so they finally get arrested, the both of them.

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Yeah.

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So this case would be tried at Glauchester Magistrates Court on January 12th, 1973,

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but by this date, Caroline had decided that she could not face them and testify in court.

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Which is like, again, we've seen this before, right?

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So what are these people doing or threatening or whatever between the time that they get arrested

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and the time that a trial happens for these people to not want to testify after all?

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I think that it should be good practice to maybe provide someone who can speak on behalf of the victim in these cases,

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instead of making the victim be the witness, like, and that happens way too often.

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It totally does.

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Well, didn't we talk about a while back, like when we first started the podcast, there is some sort of thing in place for advocates for children in these circumstances,

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but I don't know if there's one for adults.

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I don't think there is.

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Although there is something in, I want to say, and I think it might come up later,

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there is something in the UK court system where you can have an adult appointed assistant in court or something,

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and they will help you, like, they'll be there with you throughout questioning and throughout investigations and interrogations,

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but I don't think that they can testify on your behalf or in place of you.

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Yeah, I think that the only times I've ever seen that is when someone's, like, elderly or infirm, that they're unable to go to court,

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have some type of a disability, but not for able-bodied people that are going through psychiatric trauma, you know,

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and that's unfortunate that, you know, you feel like, especially when it comes to victims of crimes and the perpetrator pleads not guilty

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because then they have to go through the court and the whole trial process,

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and that's just another form of control for these perpetrators, which is so gross.

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So you feel like you're being victimized all over again because you're being controlled or made to do something you don't want to do.

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It's gross.

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That's a good point, and also, like, not to mention the, I mean, it's called a trauma for a reason,

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like, that can be extremely detrimental to someone's daily well-being.

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So, yeah, imagine having your right being put through that all over again,

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and, you know, some people do not have the ability, the cognitive ability or the emotional ability to do that,

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and this is why this happens. People, they decide they can't testify in court because they just can't bring themselves to do it.

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Of course.

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Yeah, why would you want to sit in a courtroom for possibly hours on end staring at someone who victimized you so many times,

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and, you know, and then, like I said, just being up there on the stand where you get gawked out by this person who's abused you,

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like, there's some kind of sick pleasure I'm sure they take out of it.

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Exactly.

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So, due to Caroline, Caroline, excuse me, dropping all the charges relating to the case, I know,

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the sexual assault charges were actually dropped,

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and Rose and Fred would agree to plead guilty to the reduced charges of indecent assault and causing actual bodily harm.

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See, I know when, like, they would each be fined,

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Sorry.

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I know in domestic violence cases, it's the state that usually prosecutes,

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and I feel like in certain cases like this, it should be the state or the crown that just takes over the case.

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If a victim decides to drop it, there should be some type of consequences for this.

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You know, it's not just, it shouldn't just be a waste of their time.

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It should be like, clearly, there's something going on here,

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and maybe, I don't know, like a strike rule or something.

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It shouldn't just be charges are dropped and nobody talks about it again.

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Exactly.

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It's like just because the victim doesn't want to testify doesn't mean that crime didn't occur.

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So both Rose and Fred would be fined 50 pounds each,

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and they would be allowed to leave, so they didn't even get time.

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They just got fined.

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Ugh.

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Yeah.

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When Carolyn heard the news about the West getting away with their crimes,

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she would actually attempt suicide.

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She would be unsuccessful, and we wouldn't hear from Carolyn for a very long time after this.

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That's fucking sad.

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Which is, I mean, that's just more damage, yeah.

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I mean, at least if she came forward as a victim, there should be a healthcare put into place for her.

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God.

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Yeah.

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No, I'm not laughing because it's funny.

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I'm laughing because it's ridiculous.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So three months after the assault trial of Rose and Fred, on April 19, 1973,

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19-year-old Linda Koff would move into the home of Fred and Rose.

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The couple had originally met the girl through a male lodger in the beginning of the year,

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and she regularly visited the home to see two male lodgers.

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So she was at the West House a lot to see tenants that were there.

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Lodgers is way too close to loggers, and I don't like it.

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Like they're-

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Oh, lodgers.

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Yeah.

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Like they're, what am I thinking of?

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Lumberjacks?

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Yeah, that one.

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Well, they might have been.

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They might have dressed up as lumberjacks.

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That might have been the thing.

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Just climb me a lumberjacks.

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On or about April 20, other tenants were told that Linda had been asked to leave the house

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after she had hit one of the children.

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Wait.

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So that's what the Wests were saying.

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Like, oh, Linda's gone because we kicked her out because she-

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Because she hit one of the kids.

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Oh, no.

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Mm-hmm.

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Oh my God, God forbid.

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God forbid someone-

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No one else is hitting my kid but me.

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Someone hurt these children.

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God, what assholes.

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So, following her disappearance, Linda's mother would travel to the home and inquire as to her daughter's whereabouts.

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Because her mother-

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Linda's mother knew she was staying with the Wests, and the Wests just told the other tenants,

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like, she's gone because she hit one of the kids.

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She left, so, okay.

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She left and she went home, but here comes the mom, like, where's my kid?

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Mm-hmm.

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Cute.

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When Rose opened the door to Linda's mom, Rose was wearing Linda's clothes and slippers.

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No, she was not.

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She was like, I'm Linda.

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She was, I'm fucking bitch.

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I'm Patricia.

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No, she was just like, she stole her shit.

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She says.

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Rose told the mother that Linda had moved to find work in Weston Supermare, and nothing else really came from this.

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She's like, well, can I get my daughter's slippers back at least?

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Because I gave her those and I like them.

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She's like, well, these were a gift to me before she left.

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Oh my God.

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On November 10th, 1973, 15-year-old Carol Ann Cooper was abducted after spending the evening with her boyfriend at the movies.

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She had been waiting for a bus in Warndon when she vanished and was dragged into Fred's car.

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Here, her face was bound with surgical tape and her arms bound with a cloth before she was driven to the West Home.

240
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Carol would be suspended from the wooden beams of the cellar ceiling before she was horribly abused and murdered by both Fred and Rose.

241
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:17,000
It is thought that her cause of death was strangulation or suffocation, similarly to Linda.

242
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:26,000
So like I said in part one, I keep saying it is thought that this is what happened leading up to their deaths because like we will see a lot of these people will be discovered.

243
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,000
But what happened between the time they entered the home and their bodies being discovered is really not known.

244
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,000
Interesting. Okay.

245
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:41,000
So, I'm sorry, Carol. Carol's body would be dismembered and buried in a shallow grave in the cellar.

246
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:50,000
On December 27th, 1973, 21-year-old Lucy Paddington was abducted from a bus stop along the A435.

247
00:13:50,000 --> 00:14:04,000
Her precise date of death is not known, but it is known that Fred admitted himself to the hospital on January 3rd, 1974, seemingly after sustaining an injury that occurred as he was dismembering her body.

248
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000
Dumbass.

249
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:10,000
Like what a fucking idiot. Yeah. Accidentally dismembered his own fucking arm.

250
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,000
Yeah, he's like, oh, I caught off my finger dismembering a body.

251
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000
Yeah. Right.

252
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,000
Yeah, like how do you explain that away?

253
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,000
Sir, is all this your blood or?

254
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,000
Yeah, right. Oh, that's a fucked up.

255
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:32,000
On April 16th, 1974, 21-year-old Therese Siegseller was abducted by the Wests as she hitchhiked.

256
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:40,000
Therese was a sociology student at Greenwich Community College, and Fred would initially mistake her Swiss accent for a Dutch one.

257
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:48,000
He would refer to her as quote, the Dutch girl end quote, or tulip, which I don't understand tulip.

258
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,000
I don't know, is that like their national flower?

259
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000
The sound of music thing, you know, where she's like on the hillside, but I'm pretty sure those are the Swiss Alps though.

260
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000
He's wrong in every direction.

261
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,000
Let us know please.

262
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,000
Therese was reported missing by her family in Switzerland when communication from her ceased.

263
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:16,000
She would become another victim of the Wests. Unfortunately, there's just not a lot of information about what happens between, again, the time that these women are abducted and they're found.

264
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:34,000
I have a sneaking suspicion that there's probably going to be a lot of those instances where they, I mean, just given the pattern or behavior, people that are probably will go unidentified or people that don't are never found that they probably never admit to.

265
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,000
Exactly.

266
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:43,000
In August of 1974, Rose was noted as chasing after Fred with a large carving knife.

267
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:49,000
Fred was able to slam the door of the room into which he had run as Rose lunged at him.

268
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,000
The knife becoming embedded in the door as it was sold.

269
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,000
Like she was trying to get him.

270
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,000
Yeah.

271
00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:01,000
So obviously this abuse is not just happening with the children and with their victims. It's happening within the couple as well.

272
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,000
Yeah.

273
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:12,000
As this happened, as the knife got lodged in the door, three of Rose's fingers slid like down with it, almost severing them off entirely.

274
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,000
These people are just-

275
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:14,000
They slid against the blade.

276
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,000
Losing fingers left and right here.

277
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:23,000
Right. In response to this, Rose was noted as calmly wrapping her hand in a towel and stating, quote,

278
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,000
Look what you've done, fella. You've got to take me to the hospital now.

279
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,000
End quote.

280
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000
Just super cash.

281
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000
Oh, I don't like that.

282
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000
I know.

283
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,000
Can you imagine like slicing your fingers against a knife?

284
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,000
No, I don't like that.

285
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,000
They almost get cut off.

286
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,000
Oh my God.

287
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000
And then just being calm about it, I'm just shrieking.

288
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,000
It's like, all right now fella, take me to the hospital.

289
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,000
No, take me to hospital.

290
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,000
Oh yes, take me to- oh I shouldn't have said the- I may have recognized it.

291
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:59,000
On November 15th, 1974, 15 year old Shirley Hubbard was abducted from a bus stop as she was heading home from a date.

292
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:08,000
She had been attending a work experience in Worchester and was last seen by her boyfriend when she promised to meet him the next day.

293
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,000
She would become the West's next murder victim and was buried in the cellar as well.

294
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,000
On April 12th, 1975, 18 year old Juanita Mott disappeared.

295
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:25,000
She was living with family when she was last seen, but had been a former lodger at the West home.

296
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,000
Juanita is belated to a belated- sorry.

297
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:35,000
Juanita is believed to have been abducted by Rose and Fred as she hitchhiked along the B-4215.

298
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:43,000
Fred would later be known to refer to Juanita as quote, the girl from Newent, and quote, so I guess that's where you- down her or met her?

299
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,000
Newent.

300
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,000
Or where she was from?

301
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:46,000
I'm not sure.

302
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,000
Newent, I've never heard of that.

303
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,000
Googling.

304
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,000
Googling.

305
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,000
You think it's like a part of-

306
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,000
Juanita would subsequently be buried under the cellar as well as the other victims.

307
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000
How'd he find it?

308
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,000
Following the murder of Juanita- sorry.

309
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,000
How do you spell it?

310
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:08,000
N-E-W-E-N-T.

311
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,000
Yeah, it's Houn in England.

312
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,000
Oh, there we go.

313
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,000
Newent.

314
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:13,000
Not perfect.

315
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,000
Like this is such a great story.

316
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,000
It's teeny tiny.

317
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,000
From here it would be a 14 and a half hour flight.

318
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,000
Oh wow, that's pretty far.

319
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:33,000
So we've noticed that a bunch of these victims have been buried under the cellar and following the murder of Juanita, Fred would actually pour concrete over the floor of the entire cellar.

320
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,000
Essentially, covering his tracks.

321
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:42,000
He would actually later convert this section of the home into a bedroom for his eldest children.

322
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,000
What the f- this-

323
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,000
Yeah.

324
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,000
How much worse can this guy get?

325
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,000
He's like the devil.

326
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,000
Oh, he's awful. He really is.

327
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:57,000
So over the next few years, there are not any murders that are known between Fred and Rose.

328
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:03,000
However, Fred would meet an 18-year-old woman called Shirley Robinson in 1977.

329
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:10,000
As the two engage in conversation, Shirley would be invited to the West Home the same month that she met Fred.

330
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:16,000
Within the year that she lived there, Shirley would become pregnant.

331
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:26,000
Rose, being pregnant around early 1978 as well, was initially known to boast to neighbors that Shirley was carrying Fred's child.

332
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,000
She's like, yeah, we're both carrying children of my husband.

333
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,000
Twinning.

334
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,000
Not something to brag about, honey.

335
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:46,000
However, this seemingly braggie attitude of Rose's soon turned to resentment, and it is thought that Rose did not want Fred to father a child with another woman, no matter how far into the pregnancy she was.

336
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,000
Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure.

337
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,000
Yeah.

338
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,000
It's all fun and games until this lady's actually gonna have a child with your husband.

339
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,000
Yeah.

340
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:03,000
In May of 1978, an eight month Shirley- eight month pregnant Shirley would be murdered.

341
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:14,000
Prior to Shirley's murder, Fred would express to Rose that he was going to sell their baby to a childless couple and even had photographs taken of himself and Shirley for this specific purpose.

342
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:20,000
Like, you know, you have to provide pictures of the parents to the, you know, the couple.

343
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,000
It's thought that Rose murdered Shirley because she was jealous of the fact, again, that Fred was gonna have a baby with her.

344
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,000
But also like...

345
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,000
The baby didn't survive, right?

346
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:38,000
The baby did not survive, but that's what I was gonna say. Like, okay, yeah, if you're jealous that they're gonna have a baby together and they're gonna give the baby away.

347
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,000
Like, if the baby's adopted out, then like, what's the problem? You know, like, I mean, you were so cool with her being pregnant in the first place.

348
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,000
Obviously, you don't care that they're sleeping together.

349
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000
Yeah.

350
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:54,000
Like, she's just a jealous bitch. And like, the fact that, I mean, she wasn't cool with it. I think she was putting on a face.

351
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,000
Yeah.

352
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,000
She was like, oh, I'm just this cool, I'm just cool wife. I'm cool with anything.

353
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,000
I'm not a regular mom. I'm a cool mom.

354
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,000
Yeah.

355
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,000
Right.

356
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:12,000
So, Shirley's dismembered body would be buried in the garden of the West home with the unborn child being also dismembered as well and buried, which is disgusting.

357
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,000
Like, that's way too far.

358
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000
That's beyond, like, that's beyond necessary, you know?

359
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000
Yeah.

360
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:27,000
Shortly after the death of Shirley, Rose would file a claim for maternity benefits under Shirley's name with Glaucuster Social Services.

361
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Okay.

362
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,000
So gross.

363
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,000
Like, she's just probably claiming for both of them, her and Shirley.

364
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,000
That's awful.

365
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:46,000
Rose and Fred would tell them that, I'm sorry, when anyone would ask about the whereabouts, Rose and Fred would tell them that she had relocated to live with her father in West Germany, Shirley had.

366
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,000
So, again, explain it away, you know, where's she gone? Where's she gone?

367
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:55,000
And it seems like this is a theme too. It's like they bring these women around and seemingly they're in the house for a long time.

368
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,000
So they meet a lot of these lodgers.

369
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,000
Yeah.

370
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,000
And then all of a sudden they're gone, you know?

371
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000
People are going to ask, like, what happened? It's like Dorothea Puente, right?

372
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,000
Yeah, for sure.

373
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,000
And the Death House landlady.

374
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:11,000
Wake up and you're like, oh, it's like another episode of Clue or something where a new person is dead.

375
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Where's that?

376
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000
Yeah.

377
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Right.

378
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:25,000
The following year in 1979, 16 year old Allison Chambers had run away from a local children's home with the intention of being the West's new live-in nanny.

379
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,000
Allison lived in the home with the West for several weeks.

380
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:37,000
And Rose was noted as promising Allison that she would live at a rural, quote, peaceful farm and quote, that she claimed Fred owned.

381
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,000
So she's, we're going to bring her out. She's going to live at this peaceful farm, right?

382
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,000
I think it's like an innuendo for like the garden.

383
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,000
Yeah. I was going to say, yeah, it's like with the dogs, like, oh yeah, no.

384
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,000
We gave the dog a way to go live on a farm to live out the rest of its days.

385
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,000
Yeah.

386
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,000
Unfortunately, Allison would disappear shortly after moving into the home.

387
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,000
She would be dismembered similarly to the other victims and buried in the garden.

388
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:11,000
Knowing that she regularly kept in touch with her family, however, Rose and Fred would write a letter posing as Allison and send it to her mother,

389
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000
stating that she was enjoying her time with the West.

390
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000
Okay, AJ Holmes.

391
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,000
Right. Allison's mom was noted as being distraught that her daughter had been so happy with this new life away from her.

392
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:31,000
But as she was growing closer to the age of an adult and after her 18th birthday, Allison's mom decided she couldn't control what her daughter was doing.

393
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,000
And she also didn't know the location of where Allison originally went.

394
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,000
Yeah.

395
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,000
So it's not like she could have gotten her.

396
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Also in 1979, a 15-year-old Anna Marie would become pregnant by none other than her father, Fred.

397
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,000
This is Fred and Rose's, one of their daughters.

398
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,000
What is wrong with you?

399
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:57,000
Clearly, there's a theme, there's a pattern here, but it's like, why do you continue to have children if you want to live the way that you want to live your life?

400
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,000
I don't understand.

401
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,000
Why are you bringing your kids into it and having kids with your kids?

402
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,000
It's just how much sense of control do you need?

403
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,000
Because he wants more children to abuse.

404
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000
I guess.

405
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Like, that's what it is.

406
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:23,000
Not only was Fred the cause of Anna Marie's pregnancy, which would actually become ectopic, he was also responsible for giving her syphilis and kicking her in the face with steel-toed boots.

407
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,000
What the fuck?

408
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,000
This man has to be dead.

409
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000
Better tell me by the end of this to be part of this, this man is dead somewhere.

410
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Someone killed him, is ask.

411
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000
This is a lot.

412
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,000
He's literally a fucking monster.

413
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:49,000
Fred would not be the only man allowed to abuse this helpless child, and Anna would be subjected to sexual abuse by men that frequented the home as well.

414
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,000
Of these men, her own uncle, a man called John West.

415
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,000
John West.

416
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,000
John?

417
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,000
Fred's brother, the only one that's on his own.

418
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,000
The only other John.

419
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:08,000
John was known to have raped Anna Marie over 300 times just by himself.

420
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,000
That's not including the other men that Fred's allowing to sexually assault her and Fred himself.

421
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,000
How does this like occur and nobody fucking does anything or knows anything?

422
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,000
I don't understand.

423
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,000
It's really hard for me to wrap my hand around.

424
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,000
Because everyone's been on it.

425
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,000
I guess so.

426
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:23,000
I know, it's disgusting.

427
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,000
It's disgusting.

428
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:30,000
There's gotta be dozens of people coming through this home, they have to know there's certain things going on, everyone's just cool with it.

429
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,000
How many of these fuckers exist and all within a 10 mile radius?

430
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,000
I gotta understand, but this is fucking gross.

431
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:46,000
Well, when you're raised with the household that Fred was raised in and the household that Rose were raised in, they probably have a lot of people around that are just cool with shit.

432
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:47,000
I guess so.

433
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,000
It's like love abuse.

434
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,000
It's a bit irritating.

435
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,000
Yes.

436
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:02,000
Although Anna Marie was curious about the people in the home who had left or been sent away, quote unquote, she actually remained pretty loyal to her parents.

437
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:10,000
And for a really long time, she didn't even think she was being abused because she had been taught her whole life that this is just what happens to young girls.

438
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:24,000
Not to mention Anna Marie being of school age was still somewhat attending public school. However, she would miss 60 days in one school year without anybody being the wiser of what was happening at home.

439
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,000
This is bullshit.

440
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,000
This is bullshit.

441
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000
This is like the worst Steve Wilkos show like I've ever seen.

442
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000
Yeah.

443
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,000
This is awful.

444
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:38,000
Although she had missed a large amount of school, none of the, excuse me, none of the administration would even investigate what was going on.

445
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000
They're just like, oh, she just doesn't come to school a lot.

446
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000
Goddamn.

447
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,000
Shouldn't she like follow up on that?

448
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,000
What region is this?

449
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,000
I want to never go there.

450
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,000
The school would only ever report that Anna Marie had mood swings, but that was it.

451
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:59,000
There was nothing else in her record that indicated any sort of abuse, potential abuse, suspected abuse, anything else.

452
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:05,000
She had, yeah, she had mood swings and she got really fat increasingly quickly over a nine month period.

453
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:11,000
And, yeah, exactly. And then she had bruises on her face, but you know, we just thought kids be kids.

454
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Like what the f-

455
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,000
Yeah. Well, remember this pregnancy actually turned ectopic.

456
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,000
Oh yeah, that's right.

457
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:27,000
So Anna Marie is now 15. Again, it's 1979 and she's having extreme pain because obviously if no one's familiar with an ectopic pregnancy, it's a pregnancy that gets stuck in your fallopian tube.

458
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,000
It's very dangerous and if it, it can rupture your fallopian tube and you could die.

459
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Yeah. You could bleed internally.

460
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,000
Internally, yeah.

461
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000
So the Wests would actually do something right for some reason and bring Anna Marie to the hospital to get her help.

462
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Oh yeah, because they totally care about her or the baby.

463
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:49,000
I think the reason they brought her is because, right, and they didn't want her to say that she was pregnant at school or something or something happened at school.

464
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,000
Excuse me, and then they find out or something.

465
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,000
Yeah.

466
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,000
Anna Marie would undergo a procedure for the pregnancy and return home to recover.

467
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:07,000
Although she was just 15 and would have most likely shown signs of sexual abuse had she been evaluated, no further questions or private conversation ensued with Anna Marie.

468
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:14,000
No doctor, no doctor did anything either. Oh, well, I could say that surprises me, but it fucking does at this point.

469
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,000
I could say.

470
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:24,000
On top of this, even though she was 15, with the pregnancy, social services were not called to check up on the family at all.

471
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,000
So it's like, what the fuck do you want me to do?

472
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,000
I'm taking suggestions.

473
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,000
And she's probably just like, yeah, this is normal. This is what happens.

474
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,000
The hospital is not doing anything to help me because they don't see anything wrong.

475
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:43,000
Exactly. And it's perpetuating that normality of it because nobody is saying or doing anything about it.

476
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000
So she's like, yeah, this must just be the way that everyone is because clearly, nothing, yeah, nothing wrong.

477
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,000
Nobody's questioning me about it.

478
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,000
Yeah, no one's trying to help me.

479
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,000
I want to throw this coffee cup.

480
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:07,000
Unfortunately, it didn't matter that Anna Marie needed to rest or recover after her procedure and the abuse would just continue upon the family returning home.

481
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:18,000
Just days after she was discharged from the hospital, an altercation ensued in which Rose would hit Anna Marie in the stomach repeatedly, despite the amount of pain that she was in.

482
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,000
In the stomach, like literally right where she just had that moving procedure.

483
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,000
Yeah.

484
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,000
Following this, Anna Marie decided that she had had enough and she decided to run away from home.

485
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,000
Good.

486
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:37,000
Although she had run away from home, Anna Marie found herself still wanting to send her parents' letters and cards for holidays.

487
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:42,000
She still had this loyalty to them. Again, she didn't know that it was as bad as it was.

488
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:48,000
She still sent them Mother's and Father's Day cards, but ultimately stayed away from the family following this.

489
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,000
And she of course didn't get a response when the cards were sent.

490
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:57,000
No, because they don't give a fuck about her and they're going to try to punish her for running away or trying to do something better with herself.

491
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Yeah, it's just awful. They don't give a fuck about her.

492
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,000
And if she comes back, she's just going to get beaten again.

493
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,000
Yeah.

494
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:14,000
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499
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,000
With Annamarie out of the house, the abuse of Heather and May would only increase.

500
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:58,000
If you haven't listened to part one, which I think you should, Heather and May are the other two West girls.

501
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000
They're the eldest. Excuse me.

502
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,000
This abuse of Heather and May became even more frequent once both of the girls reached puberty.

503
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:15,000
And Fred was known as being unapologetic in his approach of the girls stating, quote, I made you. I can do what I like with you.

504
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,000
And quote.

505
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,000
God, he makes me so mad.

506
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,000
This is infuriating. Why would you write about this?

507
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Me?

508
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,000
It was a request, Amy Jane.

509
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,000
Oh, OK.

510
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,000
No, but this is wild.

511
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,000
A stoozy of a request. I know.

512
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,000
So wild requests.

513
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,000
And especially not knowing anything about it previously.

514
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,000
This is a wild set of circumstances here.

515
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,000
I didn't know the case either when I started researching it.

516
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,000
Every five minutes I was like, fuck, this keeps getting worse.

517
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000
Seriously, how do you not like need to walk away?

518
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,000
How many times do you have to walk away?

519
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Quite a few, I'm sure.

520
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,000
Oh, a bunch.

521
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,000
Yeah.

522
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,000
I was like, you know what? I think I need to do a coloring sheet.

523
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,000
I think I need a drink tonight.

524
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,000
Good thing I have healthy coping mechanisms with the exception of drinking.

525
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,000
OK.

526
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:14,000
So Fred would continually refer to his intentions to impregnate both of the girls and made all

527
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,000
of the children watch porn with him on multiple occasions.

528
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,000
Oh, my God.

529
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,000
This guy is like, it reminds me a lot of like Albert Fish or like Albert Fish is what I

530
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,000
meant to say earlier when I said HH Holmes with the letters, like how he would portray

531
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:33,000
himself to like say that the girl that he had abducted was like safe still and all the

532
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,000
stuff.

533
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,000
Yeah.

534
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,000
But that's, I mean, that's just shit that Albert Fish used to do.

535
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Like, ugh, this guy's like an Albert Fish.

536
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,000
I'm surprised he doesn't put needles in his butt.

537
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,000
Did he do that?

538
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,000
I think so.

539
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:55,000
So Heather, May and their younger brother, Steven, were all really close in age and the

540
00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,000
three of them would quickly form a pact now that their abuse has increased.

541
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,000
This agreement would state that whenever Fred asked either of the two girls to be alone

542
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,000
in a room with him, they would grab one of their siblings in order to prevent the girls

543
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,000
from being sexually assaulted because he wouldn't do it in front of the other siblings.

544
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,000
He would make sure he was alone with them.

545
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:14,000
That's weird.

546
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,000
It's silly because he's doing it to all of them, you know, or whatever.

547
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,000
That is strange.

548
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,000
I guess so that maybe he wasn't outnumbered me.

549
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,000
I don't fucking know.

550
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,000
His mind is fucked up.

551
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,000
Oh, God forbid.

552
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,000
Yeah.

553
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,000
They've seen that for themselves.

554
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,000
Yeah.

555
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,000
Furthermore, both Heather and May would develop a plan that they would only shower or undress

556
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,000
when Fred was out of the home or when one of them was available to guard the door that

557
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,000
they were behind.

558
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,000
Steven, while not having been sexually assaulted at this point, was told by Fred that he was

559
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,000
going to have to have sex with his mother by the time he turned 17.

560
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,000
What?

561
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,000
Oh, you're just gonna have to do that.

562
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,000
That's a rite of passage.

563
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,000
Ugh.

564
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,000
And get this.

565
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,000
This is fucked up because if one of the girls refused to do something like this, guess what

566
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,000
would have happened?

567
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,120
They would have gotten fucking, you know, the shit beat out of them and they would have

568
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,000
gotten raped anyway, right?

569
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,000
Yeah.

570
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,000
Steven refused to do so.

571
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,000
He said, I'm not going to do that.

572
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,000
And Fred would just kick him out of the home at age 16.

573
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,000
Like, not that Steven deserved to get abused, but it's like, what's the fucking double standard

574
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,000
here?

575
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,000
He can just say no because he's a guy, you know?

576
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Well, it's fucking gross.

577
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,000
I'm sure the girls were allowed to leave.

578
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,000
It was just that they would get beaten too, you know, if they were to return.

579
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,000
Yeah.

580
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,420
So back at the home, at one point, Fred had managed to get May alone and tried to force

581
00:34:32,420 --> 00:34:35,200
her to let him fondle her.

582
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,000
When she refused, Fred would throw a vacuum cleaner at her and May would be forced to

583
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,000
comply.

584
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,000
I'm sorry, vacuum cleaners back around this time were fucking.

585
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,000
I was going to say they're all like half steel.

586
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,000
Yeah.

587
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,300
Due to the backlash she had received in the past, May had quickly developed a coping mechanism

588
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:58,080
in which she would tolerate Fred touching her and then make a joke to brush aside any further

589
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,360
efforts to sexually assault her.

590
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,360
Around this time, May would claim that Heather, quote, was affected quite badly by all of

591
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,760
this, even more than me, end quote.

592
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,360
We are absolutely fortunate and privileged to have the parents that we do have.

593
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:21,680
I can't imagine what it's like to be, to feel like the only, the only people you can rely

594
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,440
upon are people that do this shit to you, you know, like you have no other choice.

595
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,640
It's horrible.

596
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,640
It's horrible.

597
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:29,640
And like, who do you go to?

598
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,440
Like, oh, I'm not going to go to my uncle because he's the one that fucking does that

599
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,440
shit too.

600
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,920
You know, like you can't, you don't have any safe adults around you.

601
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:35,920
Yeah, exactly.

602
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,240
And you can't tell the school because you're under threat of your parents that if you tell

603
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,360
anyone, they're going to fucking hurt you.

604
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:41,360
Yeah.

605
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,440
It's horrible.

606
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,200
Heather would be known to complain to her friends about the abuse that her and her siblings

607
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:54,000
endured and her external signs of psychological stress were seen by many of them.

608
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,680
Additionally, the staff at the secondary school in which Heather and her siblings attended

609
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,920
were known to have expressed concerns as to why Heather, who is usually a serious and

610
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,640
obedient student, was now suddenly refusing to obey orders to change her clothes or shower

611
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,960
after sporting activities at school.

612
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,080
On one particular occasion, Heather was forced to take a shower at school just like every

613
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,680
other student, resulting in staff and peers seeing that her arms, legs, and torso were

614
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,760
covered in welts and bruises in various stages of healing.

615
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,080
Heather would attempt to explain away these injuries as coming from fights with her siblings,

616
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,600
but she would later confide in a friend that the injuries had actually been inflicted by

617
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,720
her parents.

618
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:38,160
Like strong fucking girl.

619
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,640
It's a brave girl.

620
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,800
She would further confess to this friend that her mother considered her to be a quote, little

621
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,520
bitch end quote who deserved her beatings.

622
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,080
I was going to ask like with all of this abuse that's going on, you know, these kids probably

623
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,240
aren't bathing, showering or any of that stuff.

624
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:58,840
Like they're probably maybe even malnourished, things like that.

625
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,680
So I was wondering about that like when you said that sometimes she would refuse to take

626
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:03,680
showers.

627
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,720
I think it was maybe a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B, like she wasn't

628
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:09,560
forced to take showers at home.

629
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,160
So it's kind of unusual to do that anyways.

630
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,280
But then also I'm sure staff eventually were like, please take a shower.

631
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,400
Like please, because you're clearly not bathing at home.

632
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,040
Like maybe we should encourage her to bathe at school, you know?

633
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,040
Yeah.

634
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,040
Yeah.

635
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,080
And the difference is like this is in like the late 70s, like early 80s, you know, I

636
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,480
feel like now mental health is so widely like I feel like we've destigmatized it a lot.

637
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,880
Like it has a long way to go.

638
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:41,600
Yeah, I feel like at school, like officials are more aware of those things now.

639
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,680
And if they saw like signs like that today, I feel like it would be more easily recognizable.

640
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,520
And especially if the kid was trying to say like, oh, they're just from fights.

641
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,880
It's like there's no way like fighting with your siblings would look that bad.

642
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:53,880
Yeah.

643
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:54,880
Like on your body.

644
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:55,880
This is purposeful abuse.

645
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:56,880
Yeah.

646
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,400
Right, right.

647
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,280
So by the mid 1980s, Heather was known to have developed classic symptoms of someone

648
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,840
suffering child sexual and physical abuse.

649
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,720
These included biting her nails until they bled, drinking alcohol at a young age, watching

650
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:16,000
her father through the corner of her eye, expressing nervousness in the presence of

651
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:21,200
males, having broken sleeping patterns and not being able to sit still.

652
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,880
There's more in that list, but these are the ones that Heather herself were experiencing.

653
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:32,480
Due to these behaviors, Fred and Rose actually saw them as disrespectful, even though they

654
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,280
were coping mechanisms.

655
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,880
And they would just immediately begin to assume that Heather must be a lesbian because she's

656
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,920
having so much trouble being raped by her father.

657
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:42,920
She just must be a lesbian.

658
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,160
She just must be gay.

659
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,480
That makes total sense.

660
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,720
It's the only reason she wouldn't want to be sexually assaulted by me.

661
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:50,720
Like, go Rose.

662
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,520
No, maybe it's because you're on a porn human being.

663
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,440
Like it has nothing to do.

664
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:56,640
And you're my father.

665
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,640
Like no.

666
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,760
And you're fucking scum.

667
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:00,760
Oh no.

668
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:02,760
Oh no.

669
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,840
Fred, who very obviously did not care much for Heather, would frequently taunt her about

670
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,520
this, calling her ugly and a bitch.

671
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,200
On other occasions, in which Heather got up the courage to confide in her mother about

672
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:21,080
her feelings of the abuse, Rose would laugh in her face, seemingly enjoying her distress.

673
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,400
I was going to bring up that one time that I think we've already only said it one other

674
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,400
time on the podcast.

675
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,000
I was like, what was that guy like asking your number or something and he was like, lesbian?

676
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,440
Yeah, this guy, I see from my number at the bar like a couple of years ago and I told

677
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,440
him, I was like, oh no thanks.

678
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:37,440
He's fucking lesbian.

679
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:38,440
Like, okay.

680
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:39,440
Like, yeah, that must be the reason.

681
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:40,440
It has nothing to do with anything else.

682
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,280
It's not that I respect my relationship and I don't want to have such a good guy by me

683
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,280
and drink at the bar.

684
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,280
Lesbian.

685
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,280
Ugh, it's terrible.

686
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:49,280
Where was I?

687
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,280
Sorry.

688
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,280
Oh yeah.

689
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:57,080
Around this time as well, rumors of Rose's promiscuous sex life at the home had reached

690
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,680
several of the children's classmates.

691
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,080
Although the West children had been explicitly told not to divulge what happened at the home

692
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,800
at school, Heather would confide in her friends that many of these rumors were true.

693
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,720
So she's like, yeah, my mom's also like running the game at my fucking house.

694
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:17,840
Oh my God.

695
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,620
While the rumors were spreading around the classmates, their parents were also catching

696
00:40:21,620 --> 00:40:25,080
wind of the West's seemingly strange lifestyle.

697
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,520
This is just the prostitution that they're getting like rumors of.

698
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,520
It's not the abuse.

699
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,160
It's not anything like that.

700
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,360
So it's like, yeah, but the students are talking about it and it's reaching the students'

701
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:35,360
parents.

702
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,120
Like the parents are like, oh, the Wests are weird.

703
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,120
Okay.

704
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:44,280
Unfortunately, one of the children that heard the rumor, like the rumors were true, would

705
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:50,680
confide in their parent and their parent was actually a friend of Fred and Rose and would

706
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,720
in turn tell Fred and Rose that Heather was the one that was telling the secrets about

707
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:56,720
their home life.

708
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:57,720
Who the fuck is this parent?

709
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:58,720
They need to shut the fuck up.

710
00:40:58,720 --> 00:40:59,960
Oh, he was probably a tenant.

711
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:00,960
Or she, he, whatever.

712
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:01,960
A client.

713
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:02,960
A client.

714
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:03,960
Yeah.

715
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:04,960
Yeah.

716
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,560
Did you hear my stomach make that weird noise?

717
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:08,560
No.

718
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:09,560
Really loud.

719
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,640
We'll listen back to it.

720
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:19,440
So these, excuse me, these details included Rose's promiscuity and Fred became so concerned

721
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,440
with the rumors that he began to escort Heather to and from school to make sure she wasn't

722
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,440
talking to anybody.

723
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,200
She can't talk to anybody at school.

724
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,080
Right.

725
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,960
Heather would leave school in 1986 and began applying at multiple jobs in an effort to

726
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,360
leave the family home.

727
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:41,520
By June of 1987, without having any luck in her job search, Heather would change her plan

728
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,840
and apply to become part of the cleaning crew at a holiday camp, hoping she would be able

729
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:50,840
to be gone from the home for a long period of time, like a summer camp.

730
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,200
On June 18th, 1987, Heather would get the unfortunate news that she did not get the

731
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,060
job.

732
00:41:57,060 --> 00:42:01,300
She would break down in tears in front of May and Stephen.

733
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:05,560
According to May, Heather quote cried all the way through the night and quote, but the

734
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,680
following morning she was quote, back to her usual self, looking miserable, biting her nails

735
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,880
and sitting on the couch bouncing back and forth as she sat and quote.

736
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,040
I don't like where this is going.

737
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:21,120
I feel like our time with Heather is limited here.

738
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,320
May and Stephen would leave Heather at home as they left for school.

739
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,360
And when they returned, they were told by Fred and Rose that she had left to accept the job

740
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,320
that she had previously been refused.

741
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:31,320
No.

742
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:32,820
Damn it.

743
00:42:32,820 --> 00:42:36,280
The Wests had also told the rest of the family the same story.

744
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,720
However, Rose would tell an inquiring neighbor that Heather had a quote, hell of a row, and

745
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,560
quote, and that she had run away from home.

746
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,460
May and Stephen reluctantly took the news that Heather left for work as truth and would

747
00:42:49,460 --> 00:42:51,520
try to go on with their daily lives.

748
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,560
However, they did expect to receive correspondence from Heather in some form, and when they did

749
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:00,800
not hear from her for many weeks, they began to question their parents again as to Heather's

750
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,880
whereabouts.

751
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,880
At this point, Fred and Rose had dropped the story about Heather leaving for work and were

752
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,560
now telling the siblings that she had left to start a new life with her lesbian lover.

753
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,320
Her lesbian lover.

754
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:15,320
Yes.

755
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,320
Like, okay.

756
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,680
Oh, shut up.

757
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,960
When, yeah.

758
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,720
May and Stephen began worrying about Heather, and even if she did run away with a woman,

759
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:26,720
they didn't care.

760
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:29,160
They just wanted to see if they should report her missing.

761
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,080
They were like, I don't care if she's a lesbian or not, like she's missing.

762
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,080
She ran away.

763
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,080
Let's report her missing.

764
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,280
In response to this, Fred would change his story yet again, saying that it would be unwise

765
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:50,400
to initiate a search for Heather as she had also been engaging in a credit card fraud.

766
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:55,600
So he's telling the other siblings, if you call the cops, you're just getting her in

767
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:56,600
trouble.

768
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:57,600
Yeah.

769
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:06,400
I mean, I guess that that would be something that is, in his mind, a good manipulation

770
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,960
tactic, but I'm sure these siblings are like, we still don't fucking care though, because

771
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,320
that's our sister.

772
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,440
But it worked for a little bit.

773
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,840
Because again, these three siblings have a pact.

774
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,320
So they don't want to get her in trouble.

775
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,680
And if they're calling and reporting her missing is going to get her in trouble, they might

776
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,080
not want to do that.

777
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,280
They want her to be good things.

778
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:34,280
She got out, you know, on more than one occasion moving forward, Fred and Rose were known to

779
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:39,040
have an unknown acquaintance fake a phone call from Heather to her parents.

780
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,280
So they would answer them, oh, hey, Heather, how's it going?

781
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:42,920
Can we talk to her?

782
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,680
She's like, no, no, no, no, she's got to go.

783
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,280
She's got to do some more fraud.

784
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:47,280
Yeah.

785
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,280
She's a lesbian.

786
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,280
She's got to go.

787
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:50,800
She has no time for us anymore.

788
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,800
She's a lesbian.

789
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,760
I have a lot of time to talk.

790
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,680
So as the years went by with still nothing from Heather, Fred would be known to begin

791
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:05,480
jokingly threatening the children that they would, quote, end up under the patio like

792
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,080
Heather, end quote, if they either misbehaved or told anybody about what was happening in

793
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,080
the home.

794
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:12,080
So funny.

795
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:13,080
So funny.

796
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,080
It's just a joke.

797
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,480
Wait, you can't take a joke.

798
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:19,480
It's horrible.

799
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,600
I'm sure we're all thinking it unbeknownst to the other children.

800
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:27,600
Heather had been murdered by her parents and her body was buried in just in the backyard,

801
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,520
just that close to them.

802
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:34,920
With Rose's permission, Fred would later construct a barbecue pit immediately opposite

803
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,600
of where Heather had been buried and would place a table on top of her grave for the

804
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,440
children of the family to sit whenever the Wests held gatherings in their garden.

805
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,160
This is fucking maniacal.

806
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:52,240
This is like beyond what kind of goddamn fantasy world do you live in where this is like acceptable

807
00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:58,120
and that you think that just that it's because they've gotten away with it.

808
00:45:58,120 --> 00:45:59,640
There's been no consequences.

809
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,000
So they continue to push it.

810
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:02,480
It's like they want to get caught.

811
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:07,480
They get sick pleasure out of knowing that they're still not caught for it.

812
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:08,680
It's like Robert Durst.

813
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,600
Like Robert Durst will continue to talk about it for forever.

814
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,480
Like Robert Durst does not keep his own mouth shut because he enjoys feeling like he got

815
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,480
away with it.

816
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:19,480
Absolutely.

817
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:20,480
It's disgusting.

818
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:21,480
Yeah.

819
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:22,480
It's like power.

820
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,640
Like, oh, I'm going to make you sit right on top of your dead sibling and you don't even

821
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:25,640
know.

822
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:26,640
Mm-hmm.

823
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:27,640
You know.

824
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,360
A few years would go by with the horrific abuse continuing in the household and no leads

825
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,600
on the disappearances of anybody murdered so far, just like you see it.

826
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:43,080
In May of 1992, Fred would ask his 13-year-old daughter, Louise, to bring some bottles to

827
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,800
a room on the first floor of their home.

828
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,720
Shortly after bringing the stuff, Louise's other siblings would hear her scream, quote,

829
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:53,600
no, don't, end quote.

830
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,760
Later that day, Fred would return downstairs where the family was.

831
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,760
Louise's siblings would look for her only to find her on the floor writhing in pain.

832
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,080
Through tears, Louise would tell her siblings that Fred had raped and sodomized her, and

833
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,720
at one point he began strangling her.

834
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:14,760
Once Rose returned home that evening, Louise confided in her that she had been sexually

835
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,800
assaulted by Fred, to which Rose responded, quote, oh well, you were asking for it, end

836
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:20,800
quote.

837
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:21,800
Yeah, I'm 13.

838
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,800
I was asking for it.

839
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:24,800
Jesus.

840
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,400
Over the following few weeks, Louise would be raped on three further occasions, with

841
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,200
Rose bearing witness to one of the assaults.

842
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,360
Following the attack, Rose would head into the bathroom to clean up, Rose would head

843
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:42,480
into the bathroom with Louise to clean up, as Louise had been bleeding.

844
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,040
Rose followed her into the bathroom stating, quote, well, what did you expect, end quote.

845
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,840
Like she's just fucking vile.

846
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,760
It's disgusting.

847
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,920
Fred, being the gross fuck that he is, actually filmed one of these sexual assaults.

848
00:47:55,920 --> 00:48:00,400
So now he has like, well, I'm sure this isn't the first time he's filmed anything, but

849
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,360
now he has like, hard evidence, right?

850
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,840
Several weeks later, Louise would build up the courage to confide in one of her friends

851
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,800
about what her father had been doing to her.

852
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,120
This friend would in turn tell her mother about what Louise had been forced to endure,

853
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:20,120
and the mother would anonymously report this to police on August 4th, 1992.

854
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,720
That's a good parent right there.

855
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:28,560
Two days later on August 6th, 1992, police would search the West home under the guise

856
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,800
of searching for stolen property.

857
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:37,280
Although numerous items of sexual paraphernalia, including 99 pornographic videos of both

858
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,760
homemade and commercial nature, were discovered, police were not able to locate the video depicting

859
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,440
the rape of Louise.

860
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,640
It seems like everything they found was like, consensual.

861
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,200
It was like either with their clients, they didn't find any evidence of the children or

862
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,200
anybody like underage or anything like that.

863
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,720
Louise would continue her bravery despite this, and would give a full statement describing

864
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:02,000
Fred's actions.

865
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,720
She included that the abuse had begun when she was just 11 years old, and that her mother

866
00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:09,520
had been indifferent to her struggles over the years.

867
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,560
As a result, all of the children would be placed in foster care the following day, and

868
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:19,360
medical exams on the children revealed the horrific truth of their abuse.

869
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,000
When being questioned, the West children would state that Rose had been the one to inflict

870
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,520
most of the physical abuse, and that Fred would frequently tell them that if they told

871
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,160
anyone about the home, they would be, quote, buried under the patio like Heather, their

872
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,160
sister.

873
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,160
So she said this to the police?

874
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,280
At this point, yes, some of the kids were corroborated.

875
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,360
They were like, this is what he said, like he would threaten us with this.

876
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,800
At this point, police would begin a full-scale investigation into Fred and Rose West.

877
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,880
The investigation would lead to Fred being charged with three counts of rape and one

878
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:58,640
count of buggery or sodomy, with Rose being charged as an accomplice.

879
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:03,560
Rose would also be charged with child cruelty, inciting her husband to engage in sex with

880
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,320
their daughter and obstructing the police.

881
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,640
Fred and Rose were also questioned about the whereabouts of their eldest daughter, Heather,

882
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,520
although Fred would claim that she was, quote, alive and well.

883
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:15,520
She's just a lesbian.

884
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,560
She's just alive and well.

885
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:18,560
Who says that, though?

886
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:19,560
Like, let's quote.

887
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,720
He literally said she's alive and well.

888
00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:24,120
She's alive and well.

889
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:25,120
How's your daughter?

890
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,120
She's alive.

891
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:27,120
She's just, yeah.

892
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:28,120
She's alive.

893
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,120
She's lesbian.

894
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:30,360
She's lesbian.

895
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:35,640
He went further to suggest that she was supporting herself via prostitution, and Rose would claim

896
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:41,120
to have no knowledge of the location of Heather or even why she had willingly left the home.

897
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:49,040
A few days into the investigation on August 11, 1992, Rose would, quote, remember now,

898
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,800
and quote, that Heather had left home at her own will due to Rose's concerns that the other

899
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:55,960
children would find out that she was a lesbian.

900
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:56,960
Oh, yeah.

901
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,560
Rose was like, oh my God, the kids cannot find out you're a lesbian.

902
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:01,560
Yeah.

903
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:02,560
I'm, I, that's it.

904
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,440
She, she, she's a lesbian and she, yeah, that's it.

905
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,400
She wasn't gonna, she wasn't gonna expose her siblings to, to her lifestyle.

906
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:10,400
That's it.

907
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:11,400
Remember?

908
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,400
Yeah, right.

909
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,280
I remember now.

910
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,040
Rose would add that she then gave Heather 600 pounds as a bribe to leave the household

911
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,480
and stated that she had also had numerous telephone calls with Heather over the years.

912
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,000
Excuse me.

913
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,760
The following day, Rose would be granted bail on the condition that she did not maintain

914
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:35,560
contact with her children, her stepdaughter, or her husband while awaiting her trial.

915
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:40,720
As Fred awaited his trial, he was held in jail in Birmingham.

916
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:45,440
Hearing the news of the arrests and that Fred had denied any wrongdoing, Anna Marie would

917
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:50,800
contact police and offer a full statement detailing her personal experiences as a child

918
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:52,360
growing up in the West home.

919
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:57,720
So she's been estranged, but she's like, oh shit, like we're gonna get the motherfuckers.

920
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:02,040
In a statement given to Detective Constable Hazel Savage, Anna Marie would recount the

921
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,800
extensive physical, mental, and sexual abuse that she endured at the hands of her parents

922
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,560
before agreeing to testify in the upcoming trial of Fred.

923
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,480
Anna Marie would also add that she had for several years been unsuccessfully been attempting

924
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,960
to trace her mother, Rena, and half-sisters Charmaine and Heather down.

925
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,760
Anna Marie had since gotten married by this point, and her husband, Chris Davis, stated

926
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,360
that Heather had confided in him about how unhappy she was shortly before her disappearance

927
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,160
and told him of her desire to leave home.

928
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,080
Chris would go further to state that although Heather had not told him any details about

929
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:44,080
her experiencing any sexual abuse, he had been concerned for her safety and offered

930
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,680
to confront Fred and Rose on her behalf.

931
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:52,040
He said that in response to this, Heather said, quote, for Christ's sake, don't because

932
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,240
they'll kill us both.

933
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:57,800
Oh my God, like she's still just so scared.

934
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,360
She was so scared.

935
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,720
Chris left the interview by telling detectives that if they wanted the full details of the

936
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,400
abuse Heather endured, that they should speak to her.

937
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:13,600
Meanwhile, May and Louise would discuss the ongoing trial of their parents by themselves,

938
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:18,240
and it became clear to May that Louise was having second thoughts about her confession.

939
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:20,680
She was the whistleblower though.

940
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:21,680
She was the whistleblower.

941
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:28,160
She definitely saved the rest of everyone from having to endure this.

942
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,560
I think so too, but I honestly don't think that she meant to get her parents in trouble.

943
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,240
I think that she just needed someone to talk to about it and her friend did the right thing

944
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:39,000
by telling her mom and her mom did the right thing by calling police.

945
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,000
That makes sense.

946
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:45,520
So maybe she's scared, like, oh, I didn't mean for it to go this far.

947
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,440
Louise would also state to May that she did not want to see Fred charged for anything,

948
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,840
and due to this, May would initially deny to authorities when questioned that she had

949
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,760
endured any type of abuse at the hands of her parents.

950
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,400
So she's now trying to protect her sister.

951
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,240
Not getting far with May, police would turn their attention to trying to locate Heather

952
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:07,080
in order to get some more information.

953
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,360
When they searched records from Inland Revenue and the Social Security Department, they were

954
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,760
unable to find any records of Heather being alive.

955
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,240
Two months later, GLauchester's social services would contact police and stress their concern

956
00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:22,680
about the location of Heather.

957
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,160
So everyone's kind of like, where the heck is this girl?

958
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,120
We don't have any records of her over the last couple years.

959
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:35,800
On June 7, 1993, Fred would be taken to trial.

960
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,000
Everything was ready to go, and although prosecutors could not locate Heather in time, they felt

961
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:45,000
confident with the impact statements of Anna Marie and Louise as key witnesses and victims

962
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,880
in the case.

963
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:52,520
However, when it came time for them to testify, both of the girls would decline to speak.

964
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,520
Both of them?

965
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:56,520
Okay.

966
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,520
It's one of those themes.

967
00:54:58,520 --> 00:54:59,520
Yeah.

968
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:00,520
I mean, it's interesting.

969
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,480
And again, I don't have that personal experience.

970
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,000
I wouldn't know the emotions that I would be going through.

971
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,600
But yeah, it definitely is this theme with all of the siblings.

972
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:14,160
It's like once they get close to getting their parents finally in trouble, they kind of don't

973
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,320
want to, not want to, but they feel like they're unable to.

974
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,160
Yeah, they've been under that threat for so long that they're like, oh my God, what

975
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,000
if I say all this stuff and then they don't go to jail?

976
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,000
What's going to happen to me?

977
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,960
Yeah, furthermore, I think knowing how many clients were in and out of the house, they

978
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,720
probably have no idea which adults to trust and which ones not to trust.

979
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:35,720
Right.

980
00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:37,240
That's very true.

981
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:40,320
So Louise had said that she didn't want to speak at the trial.

982
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,360
So like she said that at first.

983
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,120
And she just wanted to go back home with her family.

984
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:49,440
While Anna Marie stated that because Louise wasn't going to testify, she did not want

985
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,320
to put her younger siblings through all that misery.

986
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,960
Unfortunately, the real reason behind the withdrawal of the statements would remain

987
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,760
unseen, Rose.

988
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:00,760
What?

989
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:05,920
Due to the lack of evidence, the Wests would be acquitted of all charges.

990
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,600
Oh my God.

991
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:12,360
Shortly after this, yeah, shortly after this trial or lack thereof, Anna Marie would speak

992
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,720
further with authorities and would explain to them that her mother, Rena, and her half-sister,

993
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:19,680
Charmaine were also missing.

994
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,640
Upon returning home, all of the younger West children would be kept in foster care, but

995
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,720
were able to be visited by Fred and Rose under supervision.

996
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:27,720
Of course.

997
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:28,720
Yeah.

998
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:33,200
When questioned by their family about the charges, Fred and Rose would fully emphasize

999
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,240
that the allegations were fabricated by police and they were innocent.

1000
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:37,240
Not even by the kids.

1001
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:38,240
They were fabricated by police.

1002
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:39,240
The police hate us.

1003
00:56:39,240 --> 00:56:40,240
Yeah.

1004
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:41,240
Why?

1005
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:42,240
Why do the police hate you?

1006
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:43,240
Right.

1007
00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:44,240
Because we're rapists.

1008
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:45,240
Yeah, clearly.

1009
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:50,840
Although they tried to convince the remaining members of their family that were not estranged,

1010
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:56,160
that they were innocent, most of the family decided to cut ties with the couple.

1011
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,160
As you should.

1012
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,680
Meanwhile, police were still investigating the disappearance of Heather and were not

1013
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:06,360
having any luck finding records that she was alive or even ever existed.

1014
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,000
Even ever existed?

1015
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,440
I don't think that they had a birth certificate when she was born.

1016
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:13,440
Okay.

1017
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,160
Like, they never, yeah, they never made a...

1018
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,160
I mean, yeah, if they...

1019
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,160
I don't know.

1020
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:19,160
They might have had the babies in the house and don't need to know.

1021
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,280
Yeah, and if they planned on killing her eventually anyways, then, you know, hey, less

1022
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:23,280
paperwork.

1023
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,520
Right.

1024
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:29,760
Police would continue talking with Anna Marie and as things came up, they inquired about

1025
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:34,160
the family joke about Heather being buried under the back patio.

1026
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,960
Anna Marie stated that the only time she had heard Fred make this comment, he immediately

1027
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,160
burst into laughter and Anna Marie brushed it off as a true joke.

1028
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,120
However, this was a little too suspicious to police because they had heard it so many

1029
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:50,800
times and they would continue investigating Fred.

1030
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:55,680
They would find out that although Rena and Charmaine disappeared back in 1971, there

1031
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,920
were no missing persons reports filed on either one of them.

1032
00:57:58,920 --> 00:57:59,920
Yeah.

1033
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:04,280
Detective Constable Hazel Savage and her colleagues were convinced Heather was dead and that Fred's

1034
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,880
joke with his family about her being under the patio may in fact be true.

1035
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:14,160
Due to this fear, Glock-Hester police were able to successfully apply for a search warrant

1036
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:19,240
almost a year later on February 25th, 1994.

1037
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,520
Police would arrive at the address with a warrant stating that they needed to search

1038
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:24,400
for Heather's remains.

1039
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,320
The warrant said that they were allowed to.

1040
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,560
Rose would answer the door and question the police who told her that she did not have

1041
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:32,120
a choice of them entering the residence.

1042
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:33,120
She was...

1043
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:34,120
Get the fuck out of the way bitch.

1044
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:35,120
Oh, bitch.

1045
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:36,840
She was also wearing someone else's clothes.

1046
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:37,840
Again.

1047
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:38,840
Right.

1048
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:44,120
So, Rose reportedly got extremely pale and became hysterical.

1049
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:48,720
She would then shout to her eldest son, Stephen, quote, get Fred, end quote.

1050
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:50,000
That's how she sounds.

1051
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,680
Get Fred.

1052
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,600
The police wasted no time and began casually questioning Rose about the whereabouts of

1053
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:01,840
Heather and she would become increasingly upset and began yelling.

1054
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:05,920
At one point, Rose was noted as shouting at officers, quote, I keep fucking remembering.

1055
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,680
It's a bloody long time ago.

1056
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:08,680
What do you think I am?

1057
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:09,680
The computer?

1058
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:10,680
End quote.

1059
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:16,840
It went from like all these different accents, but you get it.

1060
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:21,040
Fred was actually not home at the time as he had been working out of town.

1061
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,080
Stephen would phone him and told him that he and Fred told Stephen that he would be

1062
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,560
there as soon as possible.

1063
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:33,200
Three hours later, Fred arrived home and he informed his family of his intention to voluntarily

1064
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:38,640
offer a witness statement to police regarding the whereabouts of Heather.

1065
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,560
He's just going to give up.

1066
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,520
It took him three hours because you have to get rid of the rest of the bodies in his

1067
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:45,560
trunk.

1068
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:47,720
He had to come up with a fucking story, I guess.

1069
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:49,800
I don't know.

1070
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,880
Fred would report to police that Heather was, quote, alive and well, end quote.

1071
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,200
However, she was involved in the drug cartel.

1072
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,520
And she's, yeah, this time she's in the drug cartel.

1073
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,520
And she's a fraud.

1074
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:01,520
And she's a lesbian.

1075
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:02,520
And she's a lesbian.

1076
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:03,520
Stupid.

1077
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,760
He also mentioned that although he and Rose joked about Heather being buried under the

1078
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,360
porch, it was just that, a joke.

1079
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,840
Well, he stated that the comments were crote rubbish.

1080
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,520
Rubbish.

1081
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,120
The police were not amused by this statement and openly told him that they did not believe

1082
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:21,120
him.

1083
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,040
Like, oh yeah, I don't believe you.

1084
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:28,040
Fred would respond to this by changing approaches and he claimed that the police had held a

1085
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,120
grudge against him because of his acquittal of the rape of his daughter back in 1993.

1086
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:33,600
Well, he was acquitted.

1087
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,000
He's like, well, you still think I'm a rapist even though I was acquitted.

1088
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,160
Yeah, so they're trying to frame him.

1089
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:38,160
You weren't acquitted.

1090
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:39,160
Yeah.

1091
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:40,160
Yeah.

1092
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:45,760
That same evening, the search team left the home while a uniformed officer remained at

1093
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,000
the excavation site.

1094
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,800
Around this time, excuse me, around this time, May and Stephen observed Fred and Rose talking

1095
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:57,440
in a hushed tone as they repeatedly looked from the kitchen window into the backyard

1096
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,520
by the garden.

1097
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:05,040
The following morning, eldest son Stephen got up for work and as he was getting ready,

1098
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:06,880
Fred stopped him.

1099
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,960
Fred stated, quote, look son, look after mom and sell the house.

1100
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:12,720
I've done something really bad.

1101
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,840
I want you to go to the papers and make as much money as you can.

1102
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:17,840
And what?

1103
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:23,040
Shortly after this exchange, police would return to the West home to continue their search.

1104
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,080
Upon their arrival, Fred approached them and told him that he should be arrested for Heather's

1105
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,480
murder and he was willing to give them a full condition.

1106
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:31,480
No.

1107
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,640
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1108
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,700
no, no, no, go ahead, that's fine.

1109
01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:42,000
So I named my mom as that.

1110
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,000
Mom.

1111
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,000
Yeah, Mom.

1112
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:45,000
That's fine.

1113
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,000
I mean, what about you.

1114
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,000
I send it just like two bars ringульty.

1115
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:50,280
I would give notes.

1116
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,320
I'd give you that.

1117
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:54,320
Wait.

1118
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:55,320
No.

1119
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:56,320
Yes, Yes.

1120
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:57,320
Yeah.

1121
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,080
Just like

1122
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:02,280
sense, make some money.

1123
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:02,880
Wow.

1124
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,680
He's a fucking narcissist.

1125
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,680
Like, that's the one thing he's been doing for his son.

1126
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:09,680
So that is part two.

1127
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,200
Fred has just been arrested.

1128
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,480
They have not found anything at the home just yet.

1129
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:16,440
That corroborates the bodies or anything like that.

1130
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,280
Obviously, Rose is just chilling.

1131
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,720
She's scared, but she's just chilling.

1132
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,360
And we know the truth at this point, of course,

1133
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:24,800
but investigators don't.

1134
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,880
So in part three, we're going to talk about if Fred was arrested

1135
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,280
after this or not, if Rose was arrested after this or not,

1136
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,480
and then the aftermath of everything.

1137
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,200
They're acquitted again.

1138
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:38,680
Right.

1139
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,880
Yes, but thank you guys for joining us.

1140
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:42,920
Again, Amy Jane, thank you for the request.

1141
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:45,440
We will have part three next week.

1142
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,720
And I don't think I have anything else.

1143
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:48,280
No.

1144
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,280
You're in Alaska right now.

1145
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:50,400
Isn't that weird?

1146
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:50,920
I know.

1147
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,160
That's really weird to say that.

1148
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:53,640
Because, well, technically, I'm not.

1149
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:55,640
But when you guys are hearing this, I am.

1150
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:56,160
Yeah.

1151
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:56,680
That's weird.

1152
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:57,680
Weird.

1153
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:58,560
Yeah.

1154
01:02:58,560 --> 01:02:59,360
It's going to be great.

1155
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:01,080
We will see you guys in a week.

1156
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:01,720
All right.

1157
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:02,480
Love you.

1158
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:03,400
Love you.

1159
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:03,880
Bye.

1160
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:04,400
Bye.

1161
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,600
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1162
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01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:21,760
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01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,680
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01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:58,680
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