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Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Kenna. And I'm

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Koel. How's it going? You know, this is interesting. This is a...

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It's new for us. We actually can see each other, which is nice. Yeah, we can see the

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nonverbal cues now that we couldn't in the last episode. That's awesome. Yeah, we're

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getting better at this whole recording in different rooms thing, but I think it's going

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well. Yeah, I can definitely see how it would be beneficial in the future whenever we do

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want to record. And maybe one of us is on vacation or maybe one of us or maybe we don't

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live together anymore. Let's face it, that's going to happen.

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It's going to happen eventually. So we might as well learn how to do it now in order to

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avoid not having issues in the later. Well, today is the start of our ginormous three-parter

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that we have been teasing for a number of weeks that I have been researching for a number

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of weeks. And I am so excited to get it out there. It is a request by listener Amy Jane.

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So thank you Amy for this request. We hope that we do it justice. And before we get into

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this long-ass part one, would you like to give everybody our social media handles?

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Sure, you can check us out on social media anywhere at Diagnosing a Killer, other than

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X formerly known as Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis. We also have a PayPal, Venmo,

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CashUp if you want to support us monetarily. We also have four tiers on our Patreon now.

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Tier one gets ad-free mental breakdown episodes. Tier two gets access to all ad-free episodes.

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And our tier three and four Patreon members will receive an added bonus episode every

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month towards the end of the month. And yeah, so check that out.

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Nice job. And if you want to email us or send us a DM for a request on cases, we do write

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those down and we will get to them hopefully at some point soon after you send them.

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Yeah, after your three-porter.

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Yes. All right, are you ready for this?

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Yeah, I've been wanting to tell you for so long.

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I'm excited.

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Okay, so today we are going to be talking about Fred and Rose West.

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Fred and Rose West?

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Yes, it's a British case.

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It's a British case. Oh, I love these.

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Content warning. This episode contains depictions of the brutal deaths of children, incest,

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bestiality, graphic sexual and physical abuse of children, graphic descriptions of illegal

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medical procedures, serious symptoms of mental illness, grooming of young children, suicide,

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dismemberment of adults and children after death, and necrophilia. If this episode is

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not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes. Remember, your mental

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health is very important and we love you.

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Love you. Bye.

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Ready? Yes. Here we go.

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Frederick Walter Stephen West was born on September 29, 1941 at Brickerton Cottage,

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much Markle. Hair for Shire? Is how you say that?

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Hair for Shire? Yeah, I know. I'm not, you know, I'm not from there.

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He would be born to parents Walter Stephen West and Daisy Hannah Hill, and the family

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was known as being poor farm workers. The family would be described as close knit and

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very protective over one another. Walter West was known as being a disciplinarian, while

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Daisy was known as being very overprotective of her children. Already, the gung-ho parents,

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we see that. In 1946, when Fred was around four years old, the family would moved to

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Moor Cart Cottage, where Walter would pick up work as a milking herdsman and harvest

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hand. A milking herdsman?

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Yeah, I think he just like milked cows and he was like a rant hand, but they call it

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a harvest hand. A harvest hand?

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Yes, which I think is adorable. The cottage that the family moved into was known to not

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have any electricity, and the family was known to use a log fire to keep warm during the

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winter months.

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Over the years, Walter and Daisy would have eight children altogether, but unfortunately,

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two of them would pass away at a very young age, causing the family to grow up with six

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children.

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Okay, so, I mean, when was this again? What was the year?

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In the 40s.

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So, yeah, I mean, people get sick, don't have access to healthcare, stuff like that.

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Right, yes.

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Although he was one of six children, Fred was known as being his mother's favorite and

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a real mama's boy.

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Even though he was super close with his mother, Fred was also known to lean on his siblings

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for friendship as well during his childhood.

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The children were expected to perform assigned chores as soon as they were old enough, and

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all of them were also asked to engage in seasonal work for the family.

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Seasonal work?

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Right, one of those families, it feels like they kind of had a lot of kids because they

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needed a lot of help.

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Yeah.

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The girls would be assigned in picking hups and strawberries for cooking while the boys

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were tasked with harvesting wheat and hunting rabbits.

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Hmm.

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Sorry, there's a loud noise in the background.

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Oh no.

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Needless to say, the children were all shown the necessity of hard work at a young age,

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as you typically see in ranch families.

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Mm-hmm.

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Fred would make later claims that he was sexually abused by his mother at the age of 12, that

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he had engaged in bestiality in his early teens, and that he truly believed during his

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childhood that incest was normal due to him seeing his father engage in it with his sisters.

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Escalated quickly.

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That escalated so quickly.

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Right, and it's like, where's the poop?

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But then like, there it is.

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There it is.

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Well, it was so normal, right?

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They look like such a normal family.

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Mm-hmm.

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It was normalized for them.

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That's sad.

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However, with Fred saying all these things, his brother Doug would later refute these

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claims stating that Fred just had a wild imagination.

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Because imagination makes things like that up.

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Yeah.

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While a neighbor of Fred would describe him as, quote, a bit cheeky, a bit mouthy, but

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that was the way these kids were, end quote, classmates of Fred would describe Fred as

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lethargic, dim, scruffy, and regularly in trouble.

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So he almost has a mask in certain areas of his life.

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What do you like to say that people can adapt or they're like chameleons in their environments?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I would say so.

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You know, especially if you grow up in a home that has hostility, I think that it's

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easy to not want to rock the boat too much.

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So you kind of very much have, like you said, like a chameleon aspect to yourself because

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you have to be malleable in order to survive.

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Right, right.

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Now where was I?

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Sorry.

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Um, Fred was barely literate throughout most of his childhood.

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However, he was known as showing interest in woodworking and art.

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Hmm.

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Needing to continue and support the family, Fred would drop out of school at the age of

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15 in December of 1956.

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Following leaving school, Fred would gain employment as a laborer in Moorcaart Farm.

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And in 1957, Fred and his older brother, John, were known to frequent a youth club and socialize

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with other kids from the next town over.

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Socialized, sure.

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Yeah.

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It reminds me of Willie Pickton and his brother.

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Yeah.

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The family farm, they bring everyone over.

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Fred and John having different accents than the kids in the local area were quickly dubbed

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as unintelligent, which is not cool.

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Right?

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On top of this though, Fred was known as aggressively pestering the girls at the youth

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club and would frequently be seen approaching them quickly, only to fondle them before he

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could stop them.

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It's not funny.

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I'm sorry.

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That's not funny.

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That's disgusting.

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Yeah.

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I want to, I'd duck a kid.

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Oh, I would punch someone so hard.

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Like, don't fucking touch me at all, first of all, and don't touch me inappropriately.

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Like, oh my God.

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I know what you're saying.

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Like, the imagery is funny.

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Like, scuttling.

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Yeah.

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Exactly.

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At one point, Fred would approach a girl that actually accepted his advances and the two

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would engage in sex.

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She was like, into it.

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And how old was he?

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Like 12?

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He was, between the ages of 15 and 16, because he dropped out of school at 15, he's probably

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16.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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And he found out that this girl did not find the experience with Fred satisfying and explained

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that Fred's primary objective during sex was strictly his own gratification.

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Okay.

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Which is so gross.

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Like, get away from me.

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That's gross.

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That's such a juvenile mindset, though, I feel like, in a course or whatever.

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Oh, sorry.

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Yeah, I think that, you know, what we've seen so far is that he really hasn't, he's clearly

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stunted, first of all.

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Yeah.

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You know, because of the abuse at such a young age, but yeah, for him to, you know, yeah,

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there's no real world that he exists in, you know, there's no, it sounds very selfish,

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I guess, in a way.

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Yeah, he's a fool.

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Like you said, he's only looking for self gratification.

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At the age of 17, Fred would get in a motorcycle accident and from this, he would suffer a

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fractured skull, a broken arm and a broken leg.

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Following the accident, Fred would be unconscious for seven days.

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Oh, damn.

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Once he awoke, he was reliant on braces for his legs to help him walk for several months.

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Ain't you ever seen a little boy with braces on his legs before?

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Right.

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That's what it reminds me of.

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Fred would develop severe PTSD from this incident, including an intense fear of hospitals, which

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understandably so.

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Furthermore, he would develop a sense of rage in which he would throw fits for lack of a

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better term.

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And he would also have a metal plate inserted into his head from this accident.

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Oh, geez.

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Kind of seems like he might have damaged his frontal lobe a little bit.

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Oh, great.

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We love damaging our frontal lobes.

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That's something that is.

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Just the greatest.

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But yeah, this is just something that everybody enjoys having a damaged frontal lobe.

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And it always turns out great.

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It's great, yeah.

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Two years later at the age of 19, Fred would suffer an additional head injury when he tried

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to grope a girl on the fire escape of a youth club or the same youth club.

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Did she push him off?

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In response to this, the girl would punch him and Fred would fall two floors to the ground

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landing on his head.

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Oh my God.

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Like he could have died.

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But he did it.

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He just got damaged to his frontal lobe.

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Oh no.

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Oh my God.

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Again.

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Oh, Travis.

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In June of 1961, Fred's 13-year-old sister by the name of Kitty told her mother that

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Fred had been raping her since the previous December.

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Kitty had kept the sexual assault a secret until this point, excuse me.

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When she told her mother that she was impregnated by Fred.

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Oh my God.

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Okay, this guy's a monster already.

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It's horrible.

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Daisy would call authorities who would promptly arrest Fred.

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Upon being arrested, Fred would freely admit that he had been molesting young girls since

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his early teens, stating, quote, doesn't everybody do it?

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End quote.

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I mean, that's what he was taught.

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He was taught that's how boys and girls are men and women.

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Women participate with each other.

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Like that's, oh, that's so sick.

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He's probably like, wait, that's illegal?

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Like in his mind.

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I can't see that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So for this charge, Fred would be tried on November 9th, 1961.

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Even though she was horrified and disgusted by her son's actions, Mother Daisy agreed

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to testify on Fred's behalf.

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Daisy was scheduled to testify against Fred as the victim, however, shortly before her

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scheduled testimony, she would change her mind and refuse to testify.

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Because the key witness in the case had dropped out, the entire case would fall apart.

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Although Fred did not get convicted of any charges, most of his family would disown him

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following this event.

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Daisy would ban Fred from the family home, causing him to move into the much more marital

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house of his aunt Violet.

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So his family's like, I don't want anything to do with you.

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Even though you didn't get convicted of this, you did it.

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And you're out of here.

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Yeah.

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I mean, they have other kids, so I'm sure.

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And he's already in his teens, late teens, so they probably are like whatever.

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So he went to go live at his aunt's, is it like a boarding home?

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No.

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It's just the, I think it's called much Markle.

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It's like the area.

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That's the name of it.

244
00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,920
Oh, okay.

245
00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,760
But his aunt, her name is Violet.

246
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,640
He used to, sorry, he moved in with her.

247
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,640
So I lost my mind.

248
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,640
I lost my mind.

249
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,640
I lost my train of thought.

250
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,600
Don't worry, I just lost my mind.

251
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,600
Oh, my God.

252
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,600
Oh, geez.

253
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:39,480
Okay, so at this point, it is mid-1962, and Fred had actually reconciled with his parents

254
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,720
at this point, but not with any other members of his family who had originally disowned

255
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:44,720
him.

256
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,920
They're like, you can forgive him, but we're not going to.

257
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:48,920
Yeah.

258
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:54,960
In September of 1962, a 21-year-old Fred would become reacquainted with a woman by the name

259
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,720
of Catherine or Rena Bernadette Costello.

260
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:06,600
Rena was from Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, and the two had first met at much Markle dance

261
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,840
hall in 1960.

262
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,840
I'm sorry I'm butchering these names.

263
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:10,840
It's fine, you're not finished.

264
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:11,960
So this is an old friend of his.

265
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,280
Her name is Rena, and they just reconnected.

266
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:22,360
The two dated briefly back in 1960, but ultimately separated just a few months after when Rena

267
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,160
had returned to Scotland to be with her family.

268
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:33,400
The two would quickly get married just two months after reconnecting on November 17,

269
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:34,720
1962.

270
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:38,840
Rena was actually pregnant at the time of their marriage, and it was thought that since

271
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,480
the father of her child was an Asian man, and Rena's family expressed concern for her

272
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,000
child being mixed race, that she had left Scotland and returned to England to get away

273
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,240
from them.

274
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:58,520
At the time of the wedding, Fred's youngest brother, John, was the only one in attendance.

275
00:15:58,520 --> 00:15:59,520
The only one.

276
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:00,520
No one else.

277
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:06,440
That was a red, there should be a red flag for Rena, like I'm sorry, you have no friends

278
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:07,440
or other family?

279
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,080
Yeah, even, well he has family, the family just doesn't care for him.

280
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,200
That's a red flag.

281
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:21,760
So the couple would originally move into Fred's aunt's home and then move to Coatbridge where

282
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,760
Fred would pick up work as an ice cream van driver.

283
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:25,760
Crete.

284
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,840
Oh man, that's molested children in the past.

285
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,880
Yeah, that also checks.

286
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:31,880
Yeah.

287
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:32,880
Another red flag.

288
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,840
Rena would, oh sorry.

289
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:42,040
Rena would give birth to her daughter in March of 1963 and named her Charmaine.

290
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:46,920
To explain the child's mixed race to friends and family, Rena and Fred had claimed that

291
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:52,200
Rena had suffered a miscarriage and that Charmaine was actually adopted by the couple.

292
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,160
That's so sad.

293
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,080
Because neither one of them were of Asian descent, right?

294
00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,560
So it wouldn't make sense in their mind to have an Asian-descented child unless she was

295
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:01,560
adopted, right?

296
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,080
I know, but that's messed up though.

297
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:04,080
Oh, it's terrible.

298
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,080
That's still your blood.

299
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:07,080
Right.

300
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,400
And the little girl's probably, I don't know, later in life, it would be fucking pissed

301
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,400
away from that.

302
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,560
Yeah, a million questions as to where she actually came from.

303
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,560
Exactly.

304
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:17,560
I mean, parents.

305
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,200
Oh, that's sad.

306
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,640
Shortly after Charmaine was born, the family would relocate to the Bridgetown district

307
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,000
of Glasgow.

308
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:33,360
In July of 1964, Rena would give birth to her and Fred's first child, a girl they named

309
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:34,360
Anna Marie.

310
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:35,360
A girl.

311
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:36,360
A what?

312
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:37,360
So sorry.

313
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:38,360
A what?

314
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:39,360
A girl.

315
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:40,360
A girl.

316
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:41,360
A girl.

317
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:42,360
A girl.

318
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,360
A girl.

319
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:51,040
A girl. The family would hire a nanny by the name of Issa McNeil to assist with the children

320
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,760
and neighbors of the family at the time would describe Rena as a considerate mother, quote,

321
00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,640
struggling to bring up two children, end quote.

322
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:07,320
They also noted that Fred seemed to have treated the children quite harshly.

323
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,480
Unbeknownst to the neighbors at this time, Fred would keep the girls in the bottom of

324
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:17,640
a bunk bed with bars fitted to the space between the bunks, effectively caging them while he

325
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:18,640
was home.

326
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:19,640
What?

327
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:20,640
John.

328
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,600
I mean, it didn't escalate quickly, but like just like what?

329
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:25,600
I don't understand.

330
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,840
Like clearly this man has been abusing children his whole life.

331
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,600
And how was he able to like manipulate a woman with a child?

332
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,000
And then ultimately, I don't think she knows his past.

333
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,560
You know, but still like, I just, yeah.

334
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:40,560
Okay.

335
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:41,560
So, what's the story about your Rena?

336
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,360
Well, it's crappy because his past charge, he was never convicted of because they got

337
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:52,960
dropped because of the witness or lack thereof witness testimony.

338
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:58,240
So as far as the girls being in the makeshift cage, they were actually only allowed to be

339
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:03,080
out of it when Fred was at work when he wasn't at home.

340
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,040
He was like, yeah, what's the mom doing?

341
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,720
He didn't want to be bothered or what?

342
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,680
Yeah, I think so.

343
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:15,920
Fred and Rena around this time would be introduced to their nanny's friend by the name of Anne

344
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:16,920
McFall.

345
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,680
So this is a friend of their nanny Issa.

346
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,680
Anne McFall was 16 years old and she had recently lost her boyfriend in a workplace accident

347
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,400
and was notably going through a depressive patch when she met the, excuse me, when she

348
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,040
met Fred and Rena.

349
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,640
Anne would begin coming around the home a lot, seemingly to keep herself busy and hang

350
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,400
out with people that made her happy.

351
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,760
Unbeknownst to Rena, Fred was having numerous affairs in the early years of their marriage

352
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,640
and even fathered another child with another woman from Scotland.

353
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,160
Is she blind, deaf and mute?

354
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,920
I don't understand what Rena's up to.

355
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:56,920
What is going on here?

356
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,720
I don't really know much about this Rena.

357
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:04,160
I don't know if she was just ignorant or if she was kind of messed up as well and just

358
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,160
didn't really care.

359
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,160
I don't know.

360
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,240
That's the irony that you don't know what's going on.

361
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:16,560
This isn't like the 1800s where someone has no other choice but to be with any man that

362
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,560
will take her.

363
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,560
You know what I mean?

364
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:19,560
That's a good point.

365
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,560
This is a stretch.

366
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,640
Well when Rena caught wind of Fred's affairs, rather than divorcing him, she decided that

367
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:33,960
she was going to get even and she began her own affair with a man called John McLaughlin.

368
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,160
I'm sure Fred does not give up.

369
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:36,160
Oh he doesn't care.

370
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,160
He's like, I do.

371
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:38,160
Thank you.

372
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,160
Take her off my hands.

373
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,160
I'm sure he doesn't fucking care.

374
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,160
Right?

375
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,680
Since Rena knew about Fred's extramarital affairs, she did not exactly feel the need to be sneaky

376
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,080
about hers.

377
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:54,000
In one instance, Fred would walk in on Rena and John doing the deed and in response, Fred

378
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,800
would punch Rena in the face.

379
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:56,800
Like what?

380
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,040
Not him, but her.

381
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,040
Yes.

382
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,680
This caused Rena to of course scream and also in response, John would punch Fred in the

383
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,320
face.

384
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,280
Fred would then draw a knife.

385
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,000
So this is like escalated quickly again.

386
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,720
We've seen that this whole time.

387
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,800
This is out of control.

388
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,640
I'm sure she was like, oh no, Fred.

389
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:19,640
You walked in on us.

390
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:20,640
She's like, oh.

391
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:21,640
She's like, oh.

392
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,640
I'm sure she's trying to make him jealous.

393
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,640
Yeah.

394
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,880
Fred would lunge at John with the knife, grazing his abdomen in the process.

395
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:36,080
John would punch Fred once again, which caused Fred to stop his attack altogether.

396
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:41,080
Years later, John would comment on this event stating, quote, he couldn't tackle a man,

397
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,840
but he wasn't so slow in attacking women, end quote, which is funny.

398
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,600
Well, I mean, that's his forte.

399
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,080
He loves to attack women.

400
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,280
And children, yeah.

401
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:55,360
So despite all this, John and Rena would continue their affair and John would begin to see more

402
00:21:55,360 --> 00:22:00,520
and more scrapes and bruises on Rena as the months would go on.

403
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,640
This would obviously enrage John.

404
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,200
And each time he would confront Fred, he would beat him in return.

405
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,280
He would end the response.

406
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,720
Like it's almost like it's kind of, it's not funny, but it's almost kind of silly to

407
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:12,720
me.

408
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,440
It's like, this seems like it's been multiple times where he confronts Fred and kicks his

409
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,880
ass for hurting Rena, but he's not taking Rena away from Fred.

410
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,480
I think it has to probably do with the kids.

411
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,960
It has to be.

412
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,440
Yeah.

413
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,240
In another instance, John stated that he witnessed Charmaine, who was just a little older than

414
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:34,720
a toddler at this time, ask Fred for an ice cream from his van.

415
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,840
In response, Fred hit Charmaine across the head and John would kick Fred's ass again

416
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,440
for this.

417
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:43,760
Why would he hit her?

418
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:44,760
He has ice cream.

419
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,960
He doesn't want anything to do with her.

420
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,920
He's like, get away from me.

421
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:48,920
Yeah.

422
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:49,920
John would say about this.

423
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,920
He's like, go back to your cage.

424
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,280
He's like, go back to your cage.

425
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,280
Like seriously.

426
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,840
John would state about this incident with Charmaine, quote, any ordinary man would have

427
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,280
given the child some ice cream, but instead he smashed her around the head with his hand.

428
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:11,080
He was a violent and sadistic bastard who enjoyed beating up women and kids, end quote.

429
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,720
It's just awful.

430
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:20,560
On November 4th, 1965, Fred was driving his van when he accidentally ran over and killed

431
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,840
a small boy in Glasgow.

432
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,120
Oh my God.

433
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:29,720
Fred would be questioned by police, but would ultimately be cleared of any wrongdoing.

434
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,840
They like deemed it an accident.

435
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:32,840
Okay.

436
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:33,840
Yeah.

437
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,760
Although he was not held responsible for this, Fred became concerned that the locals

438
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:45,480
would resent him for the accident, locals that he relied on to support his business.

439
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:46,480
That's what you're concerned about?

440
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,000
I mean, he's abusing everyone around him.

441
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,720
Like you're worth hating my dude.

442
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:53,720
Right.

443
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,760
Due to this concern, Fred would make the decision to rent a caravan and move his two children

444
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,760
back to Glaucuster.

445
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,120
So he say that, Glauchesta?

446
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:04,120
Glauchesta.

447
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,120
Glauchesta?

448
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:12,680
Reena would join Fred and the girls in February of 1966, accompanied by both Issa McNeil and

449
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,160
Ann McFall, who all moved into the caravan together.

450
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,960
So it's now Fred, his wife, their two children, their nanny and their nanny's friend.

451
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,120
Then he's banging all of them.

452
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,080
You can see where this is going.

453
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,080
This is awful.

454
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,000
Tell me this guy becomes a cult leader.

455
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,280
Oh, geez.

456
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:38,440
So shortly after the move, Fred would find employment driving a lorry for a local abattoir.

457
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,240
Essentially he was assisting at a slaughterhouse.

458
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:46,520
I had to Americanize that phrase because I didn't know what that meant.

459
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:53,520
By early 1966, Fred was back to his usual self and was consumingly domineering over all three

460
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,200
of the women in the home.

461
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,040
He was known to be prone to violent mood swings, with Reena and Issa taking the brunt of his

462
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,640
rage.

463
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,000
Fred was known to have attacked Charmaine on multiple occasions as well and was reported

464
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,400
to have begun sexually assaulting her at this time.

465
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,080
She's a child.

466
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,920
Like an actual child.

467
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,800
Fred would somehow talk Reena into re-engaging in prostitution as she had done before they

468
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,920
got involved and she would agree to make money for the family.

469
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:25,920
I know.

470
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:26,920
It's like all over the place.

471
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:27,920
No more.

472
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,920
Oh my God.

473
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,600
At this time, Reena had had just about enough of their relationship and she would phone

474
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:38,200
John McLaughlin begging him to come rescue her and the children from Fred.

475
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,680
Did he?

476
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:40,680
Did he?

477
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,120
Well, I was going to say.

478
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,840
Another, Reena, John and Issa came up with a plan.

479
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,960
John and Issa's boyfriend, also named John, would secretly drive to where Reena was and

480
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:58,720
discreetly take her and her children as well as Issa back to Scotland.

481
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,640
Anne on the other hand was not upset with Fred's actions around this time and was actually

482
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,400
quite on the opposite side.

483
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,320
Again, this is the friend that was 16 when they met.

484
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:15,440
They had become infatuated with Fred who had previously promised to marry her.

485
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,320
Oh my God.

486
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,240
That's another thing like an abuser does.

487
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,400
I've seen it in a few cases where, especially when the, well, I guess we saw it in Aaron

488
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,400
Caffey and Charlie Wilkinson, right?

489
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,640
He was like a few years older than her and he was able to control and manipulate her

490
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,200
on the promise of eventually marrying her.

491
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,720
You're at a formidable year at that point.

492
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,520
That's when you start looking towards things like lifelong companionship and what that looks

493
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,520
like for you.

494
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,120
You start dating and all that.

495
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:48,800
So yeah, for sure.

496
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,600
Some older gents that's like, I'm going to take care of you, even though he's living

497
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,600
out of a fucking van.

498
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,520
Yeah, but he's also, I mean, in her mind, he's established.

499
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,280
He has children, so he's a good man.

500
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:00,880
He makes money.

501
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,720
In her mind, he's this real off guy, right?

502
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,440
It's just gross.

503
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:13,960
So Anne actually did know about this plan to rescue Rena, the children, or and Issa, but

504
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:19,360
it's actually thought that she alerted Fred as to what was going to happen.

505
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:24,840
So Fred would actually arrive at the home as the same time as the Johns.

506
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:25,840
Mm-hmm.

507
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,160
Like, like her prostitutes.

508
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,400
I'm sorry, because he said Rena was prostituting.

509
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:31,400
Yeah, that is funny.

510
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,400
The Johns sound funny.

511
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,840
But yes, no, John and John.

512
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:39,600
And it was noted at this time that Anne was, quote, oddly calm, end quote, as she told

513
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:45,040
the group that she was just going to stay with Fred and act as the children's new nanny.

514
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,040
Sure.

515
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,280
Mm-hmm.

516
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,920
An altercation ensued between John McLaughlin and Fred, resulting in Fred being hit several

517
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,880
times as he was holding on to his two young girls.

518
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Well, that's sad.

519
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,960
But also, he's also had a lot of head trauma before.

520
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:03,960
It's true.

521
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,960
This isn't helping.

522
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:05,960
I haven't heard him anymore.

523
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:07,720
I mean, he's very mentally ill.

524
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,680
We can establish that right now.

525
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,720
But let's just duct tape him in some bubble wrap and he'll be okay.

526
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:15,720
Put him in a padded room.

527
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:16,720
No, that's terrible.

528
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:23,360
So at this point, police were called and the two Johns, Issa and Rena, would leave the

529
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:24,360
home.

530
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:29,880
Fred, threatening to kill Rena, should she ever return again?

531
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,320
I'd be like, okay, bye.

532
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:32,320
See ya.

533
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,960
Well, this is now leaving Fred with the two young girls, though.

534
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,600
And Anna is with him as well.

535
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,640
So Rena, like, she's kind of like, no, I don't want to leave my fucking children with you.

536
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:42,640
Yeah.

537
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,920
So Fred's threat would turn out to be a false claim, as Rena, wanting to make sure that

538
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,320
the girls were being cared for, would frequently travel from Scotland to England to visit the

539
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,920
girls.

540
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,400
Despite initially maintaining her friendship with Anna, Rena slowly began to resent her

541
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,760
presence around her daughters.

542
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,720
After all, her and Fred were more than just friends at this point.

543
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,480
She's not just the nanny, you know.

544
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,000
Yeah, she's gonna be like second mom.

545
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,520
Of course.

546
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,360
On October 11th, 1966, Rena would steal belongings from Fred's caravan out of resentment and

547
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,200
return to Glasgow.

548
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,360
She would be arrested the following month and on November 19th, Rena would be sentenced

549
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,360
to three years probation for theft charges.

550
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:26,360
Yeah.

551
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,360
Yeah.

552
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,880
Where your kid's gonna go now?

553
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,720
Fred would testify at the hearing like a dumbass, not like a dumbass, but like he was like

554
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,720
on trial and now he's the one testifying.

555
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,720
Oh my god, in the victim, you know.

556
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,320
I get to be the victim.

557
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,960
During the trial, he stated that he and Anna were living together, but that she intended

558
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,600
to return to Scotland soon.

559
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,840
Like she's not staying forever.

560
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,520
She's just the live-in nanny.

561
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,760
I see.

562
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,000
Yeah.

563
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:58,000
During the trial, Anne would move into another caravan close by, while Rena would still split

564
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,560
her time between Scotland and England.

565
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:07,200
Anne would write letters to her family between the years of 1966 and 1967, suggesting that

566
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:13,760
she believed a relationship with Fred could offer her a better life than she had in Scotland.

567
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,960
These letters also stated that Anne was trying to persuade Fred to divorce his wife and marry

568
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,840
her instead.

569
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:27,600
On July of 1967, 18-year-old Anne, 8 months pregnant, would vanish.

570
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,600
What?

571
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,320
Anne McFall vanished.

572
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,680
Oh my god.

573
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,120
Fred would go on with his life and actually would move Rena back into his home just a

574
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,400
month later.

575
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,520
What the fuck?

576
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,080
By the way, the listeners don't know this, but we did a little bit something different

577
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,720
with our video and audio and it's so much better.

578
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,320
I can see you in real time now and hear you in real time and it's perfect.

579
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,160
I love it.

580
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,360
So now Rena and Fred, living back together, would relocate to the Lakehouse caravan park

581
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,320
where their relationship would vastly improve.

582
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,880
Rena would ultimately leave again the following year, however, and would again leave the children

583
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,440
in Fred's care.

584
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,360
So their relationship improved for just a minute and then she left again.

585
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,960
Yeah, I thought he said he was going to kill her if she came back.

586
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:20,960
Exactly.

587
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:26,080
Well, this time, Fred was left to care with the girls alone, but he was reportedly temporarily

588
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,080
placing them at this point into the care of Glastisher Social Services.

589
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:34,280
I know that's how you pronounce that because I wrote it phonetically because it's a very

590
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,280
big word.

591
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,280
Glastisher.

592
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:37,400
Glastisher.

593
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,440
So the girls being in the social service care would only go on for a few years and in early

594
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:50,440
1969, Fred would meet a girl by the name of Rosemary Letts shortly after her 15th birthday.

595
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:51,440
Oh my God.

596
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,440
Oh.

597
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:53,440
It's a deep.

598
00:31:53,440 --> 00:32:01,360
Rosemary Pauline Letts, or Rose, was born on November 29, 1953 in Northam, Devon.

599
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,000
Rose was the fifth of seven children born into the poor family of William Andrew or

600
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,480
Bill Letts and Daisy Gwendolyn Fuller.

601
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,480
Their moms have the same name.

602
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,480
Gwendolyn.

603
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,680
Rose's mother was known as suffering from depression in her adult life, and she would

604
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:25,560
undergo electroconvulsive therapy before and immediately after her pregnancy with Rose.

605
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:26,800
Okay.

606
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,680
Some people would later argue that the ECT may have caused prenatal development injuries

607
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,000
to Rose as a newborn, which is...

608
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:40,080
Kenna and I just looked directly into the camera at each other and our faces got closer

609
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,240
and closer because we were like, nobody wants to be electrocuted for therapy.

610
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,240
Of course not.

611
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,240
Nobody wants to.

612
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:48,240
That's so dangerous.

613
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:49,240
Nobody does that willily.

614
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,240
They're not like, oh, okay, sure.

615
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,240
Sure.

616
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,240
The bot advised me.

617
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:53,240
Thank you.

618
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,240
Front to low.

619
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:59,000
So Rose's father was also noted as being diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and it was prone

620
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,560
to violent behavior and maintaining a domineering presence in the home.

621
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,000
Yeah, this is just already a thing.

622
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,840
Well, it's very reminiscent of what Fred experienced with his domineering mother and

623
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:18,120
clearly they're being trauma and disorders in that family as well.

624
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,120
Of course.

625
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,680
So growing up, Rose struggled with bouts of aggression and poor performance in school.

626
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,080
She would be described as a moody teenager who was prone to daydreaming.

627
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,320
And with the household being tumultuous most of the time, Rose's mother Daisy would make

628
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,240
the decision to leave Bill and she would take Rose with her.

629
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,760
Rose would attend Cleave school for six months while living with her mother, but ultimately

630
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,920
Rose would move back in with her father near Cheltenheim Glossischer.

631
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,840
And that's that big word again.

632
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,480
It was noted that around this time and most likely in the previous years, Rose and her

633
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,640
eldest sister Patricia were being sexually abused by Bill.

634
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,200
Once Rose had reached puberty, it became apparent that she was very proud of her developing

635
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,200
body.

636
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,560
She would reportedly be fascinated by her body and walk around the house deliberately

637
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,720
parading naked or semi-naked and showing off her maturing figure.

638
00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:24,360
But again, like this is so bizarre to us, but it's like that is a child of sexual abuse.

639
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:29,400
Like you're made to think that you're so sexualized at such a young age.

640
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,600
Of course you're going to be proud of it when you start looking like a woman.

641
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:33,600
You know?

642
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,600
Right, of course.

643
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,320
Rose was also known to do this parading around intentionally in the presence of her younger

644
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,920
brother Graham.

645
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:48,520
On numerous occasions at the age of 13, Rose was known to sneak into nine-year-old Graham's

646
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,240
room at night and sexually assault him and her other younger brother Gordon.

647
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:55,040
Oh my God.

648
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,400
Again, it like runs in the family if you will.

649
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,600
It's a product of, yeah, the environment she grew up in.

650
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Traveling alone, Rose was waiting at a bus stop in early 1969 when she encountered a man

651
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:15,360
by the name of Fred West.

652
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,560
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653
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,280
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654
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655
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,400
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656
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,800
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657
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:35,800
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658
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659
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660
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661
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:57,180
Like I said, Rose had just turned 15 a few months prior and she was originally turned

662
00:35:57,180 --> 00:36:01,200
off by the 28-year-old Fred's unkempt appearance.

663
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,200
He's 28.

664
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,200
Was he bald?

665
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,200
I don't know.

666
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Raymond Fernandez.

667
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,200
This feeling.

668
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,200
And I love that I'm dating a bald man.

669
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,200
That episode you did say he was bald a bunch.

670
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,200
It was pretty funny.

671
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,200
And he's bald.

672
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,960
Well, he's just gross though, so you can say that.

673
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,640
Yeah, he was gross.

674
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:28,280
So the disgusted feeling that Rose originally had when she met Fred quickly turned to flattery

675
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:34,160
when Rose noticed that Fred was unapologetically and very openly admiring her appearance, like

676
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,520
sexually.

677
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,160
Of course, Rose loved showing off her body, so she loved the attention that she was getting

678
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,040
from an older man.

679
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,320
Over the next few days, Rose and Fred would see each other again at the same bus stop,

680
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:54,000
and Fred would eventually ask Rose to go on a date with him.

681
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:59,920
She would initially refuse, but did say that Fred could walk her home.

682
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,320
She's like, no, but let's walk and walk.

683
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,320
Let's go down this dark alley.

684
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,680
Yeah, there's a dumpster.

685
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,180
So through their initial conversations, Fred was surprised to find out that Rose had never

686
00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:16,080
been in a relationship before because she was overly promiscuous.

687
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,120
Fred would gain more trust from Rose when he told her that his ex-wife had abandoned him

688
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,040
and his two daughters, leaving him to fend for himself.

689
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,040
Oh no.

690
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,800
Oh, poor me.

691
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,520
Through their conversations, Fred was able to discover that Rose had worked at a nearby

692
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,920
bread shop.

693
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,280
Armed with this information, Fred would persuade an unknown woman to enter the bread shop and

694
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:42,160
give Rose a gift and tell her that a quote, man outside, end quote, had asked her to present

695
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,160
this gift to her.

696
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,160
Like, that's fucking creepy.

697
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,400
You're like, take it away.

698
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,680
Yeah, he's like, she's like, oh, it's that gentleman outside.

699
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,320
And he's like, like, friends around all creepy.

700
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,320
He's all creepy.

701
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,320
He's on all fours.

702
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:01,040
Yeah, he's on all fours.

703
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,520
He looks like he smells like Old Era and he's got like Russell Brand hair.

704
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,280
He's like, it's just gross.

705
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,320
He's like, he's 28 years old, courting a 15 year old.

706
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,320
And she already said no like twice and he's like, well, just send her a gift.

707
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,280
She can't say no to me.

708
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,800
So a few moments after Rose received this gift, Fred would enter the shop and ask her

709
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,880
to join him on a date that evening.

710
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:27,880
Rose would accept.

711
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,960
This guy's a loser.

712
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,680
Shortly after this date, Rose and Fred would begin a romantic relationship.

713
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,160
Rose would begin coming around the Lake House Caravan Park and she would almost immediately

714
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:45,440
notice that the two young girls were clearly being neglected by Fred.

715
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,680
She would do her best to take care of the children when she was around and she would

716
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:53,120
frequently try and encourage Fred to take the girls out to do fun things, even just

717
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,640
to go flower picking or something to get them out of the house.

718
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,640
Yeah.

719
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,840
Within weeks of her first meeting, Fred, Rose would quit her job at the bread shop in order

720
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,680
to become a full time nanny of Charmaine and Annamarie.

721
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:11,280
Oh, that's what he's been doing, right? He's like having them be nannies quote unquote

722
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,760
and then exploiting them.

723
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,840
Right, live it nanny.

724
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,000
This decision by Rose to become the nanny or of Rose to become the nanny would be made

725
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,400
when her and Fred came to the agreement that he would provide her sufficient money to give

726
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,800
to her parents on Fridays in order for her to pretend that she was still working at the

727
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:28,800
bread shop.

728
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,240
So I guess she wasn't technically a live nanny but she was there like all during the

729
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,240
day.

730
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:39,720
Several months into their relationship, Rose would introduce Fred to her parents who were

731
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:43,760
pretty thrown by her choice of partner.

732
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,560
Like this guy looks like a dog.

733
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,560
Rose's mother Daisy was unimpressed with Fred while her father Bill was extremely disapproving

734
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,640
of their relationship.

735
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:55,640
Bill would threaten Fred.

736
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,360
Well, he's not a great guy either.

737
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,640
Bill would threaten Fred directly and promised to call social services if he did not end

738
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,080
the relationship because at this point, like you got to think about it, Fred's the adult.

739
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,680
Like, Rose doesn't have the ability to consent in this relationship.

740
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,600
You are the adult, you need to end the relationship.

741
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:14,960
Yeah.

742
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,680
Although Rose's parents would forbid their daughter from continuing to date Fred, she

743
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,200
would defy their wishes and continue to see him.

744
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,600
Who does that sound like?

745
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,760
What do you mean?

746
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:28,760
Aaron?

747
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:29,760
Aaron Caffee?

748
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,360
It's like every other relationship, toxic relationship we've ever casted.

749
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:39,320
So Rose's parents would make a visit to Glossischer Social Services and explain that their 15-year-old

750
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,680
daughter was dating a much older man.

751
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Not only this, but they also stated that they had heard rumors that their daughter had begun

752
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,360
to engage in prostitution at his request.

753
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,840
That sounds familiar too, just like Rena.

754
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,680
In response to this, Rose was placed in a home for troubled teens in Cheltenham in August

755
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,280
of 1969.

756
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,680
She would only be allowed to leave under controlled conditions, and when she was allowed to return

757
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,440
home to visit her parents on the weekends, Rose would almost immediately go to see Fred.

758
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:12,440
I know.

759
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,840
It's like, you don't understand that this guy is bad for you.

760
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,560
Yeah, clearly.

761
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,400
On her 16th birthday, Rose would leave the home for troubled teens and return to her

762
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,280
parents' house.

763
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,920
She wanted to go see Fred at this point, however, he was serving a 30-day sentence at this time

764
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,320
for unpaid fines and theft charges.

765
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,840
He's just continuing to commit crimes.

766
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,840
Yeah, because why not?

767
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,440
Clearly, he's gotten away with it for years at this point, so he's just going to keep

768
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,440
going.

769
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,000
Upon Fred's release, Rose would leave her parents' house without permission, of course,

770
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,920
and would move into the flat that Fred was living in.

771
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:48,920
Yeah.

772
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:49,920
I'm just like, bye.

773
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:50,920
See you later.

774
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,680
I live here now.

775
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,720
Shortly thereafter, Fred would fully retrieve his children from Social Services because

776
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:00,760
they had to go back when he was in prison, obviously, or in jail.

777
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,240
On this time as well, Rose's father Bill would continue making efforts for her to not see

778
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:07,240
Fred anymore.

779
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:11,680
I guess it was kind of hard to explain, but I guess what transpired to this is that he

780
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,080
took her to the doctor to maybe try to prove something.

781
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:16,080
I'm not sure.

782
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:23,400
But either way, in February of 1970, the doctor determined that Rose was actually pregnant,

783
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,000
and in response, she was again placed into Social Services care.

784
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,480
She's like 15 or 16, right?

785
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:30,480
Yeah.

786
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,480
I don't know.

787
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,040
Maybe the dad kind of knew that she might be pregnant, and he was trying to get Fred

788
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,040
in trouble.

789
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,040
Like, look, she's pregnant.

790
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:37,040
She's with this guy.

791
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,040
That's not cool.

792
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,040
Yeah.

793
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,640
However, shortly after being placed into care, Rose would be discharged yet again on March

794
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,080
6th with the understanding that she would terminate her pregnancy and return to her

795
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,080
family.

796
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,360
So she told them that she was going to do that.

797
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,280
However, this is not the truth, and Rose would quickly move back in with Fred, resulting

798
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:03,160
in Bill telling her that she was not allowed to set foot in his household ever again.

799
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,280
I mean, her dad's a piece of shit.

800
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:07,280
Yeah, I'm just saying.

801
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,280
She's probably like, cool.

802
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:10,280
Yeah.

803
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:16,720
And then she's moving into a home with an abuser that's just as bad as not worse than her

804
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:17,720
father.

805
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:20,200
It's just this poor girl.

806
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,840
She probably thinks that Fred is like heads and shoulders above her father, though.

807
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:24,840
Yeah.

808
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,720
And there's a reason that probably deep down she's attracted to him because of that.

809
00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:32,200
It's familiar to her.

810
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,920
So three months after this, Fred and Rose would leave the flat and relocate to a new

811
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,120
home in Glaucuster.

812
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:47,080
On October 17th, 1970, Rose would give birth to a daughter that she named Heather Ann.

813
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:53,040
There is actually speculation that the true father to Heather was Bill, and this is still

814
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,040
speculated to this day.

815
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,400
So that might have been another reason why he took her to the doctor and wanted her to

816
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:59,400
terminate.

817
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,280
Yeah, terminate.

818
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,320
He's kind of using it too full of like, oh, this guy's abusing my daughter.

819
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,600
Clearly she's pregnant, but like also terminate the pregnancy because clearly it's mine.

820
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,600
Yeah, clearly it's mine.

821
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,240
Oh, my God.

822
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:19,000
So two months after the birth of their daughter, Fred would be imprisoned once again on charges

823
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,920
of theft.

824
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:27,360
He would remain in prison until June 24th, 1971, which was a six month total sentence,

825
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,440
and which Rose was left to care for all three of the girls.

826
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,440
Keep in mind, Rose is just 17 at this point.

827
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:35,440
Yes.

828
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:42,120
So during the time that Fred was incarcerated, Rose would begin telling Charmaine and Anna-Marie

829
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,440
to refer to her as their mother.

830
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:45,440
Ew.

831
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:46,440
You can just call me mom.

832
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:47,440
You can just call me mom.

833
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:48,440
I'll be like, automatically.

834
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:49,440
Just call me mom.

835
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,800
I have, so you got to call me mom.

836
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,160
Anna-Marie and Charmaine, now living with Rose, were still not free from the criticism,

837
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,600
beatings, and other form of punishment that they were getting with their father.

838
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:05,240
Anna-Marie was known as being generally submissive and emotional, while Charmaine would frequently

839
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:11,400
anger Rose by not showing any signs of distress or tears, no matter how severely she was physically

840
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,400
abused.

841
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,480
So just to clear that up, like Rose comes into this and she's like, oh, these girls are

842
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:16,480
clearly being neglected.

843
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:17,480
I need to help them.

844
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:18,480
I need to do this and that and the other.

845
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,440
And then she's sort of adapts this lifestyle that Fred has and she's now doing that to

846
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:23,680
the children as well.

847
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:24,680
Yeah.

848
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,680
Well, I think it's probably also a matter of like, she only has one biological child

849
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,440
and she doesn't have, like the other two kids are not her biological children.

850
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:39,200
So she therefore feels like she can abuse them because they're not her blood.

851
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,440
She probably resents the woman that had these children before.

852
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,400
And so since she's like, yeah, she's like, oh, well, you know, you're going to have to

853
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,840
call me mom, but essentially she has no emotional connection to these children.

854
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,360
If anything, she has resentment against these children because she's also a child herself.

855
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:58,360
Yeah, of course.

856
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,120
And she doesn't understand how to process things like jealousy or, you know, any of that other

857
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:04,120
stuff.

858
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,440
So, you know, instead of she can't take it out on the biological moms, so she's going

859
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:08,440
to take it out on the child.

860
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:09,440
Right.

861
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,640
And then she grew up in the use of household herself and now she's seeing Fred and now

862
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:18,400
she's like, oh, this just must be what people do, like to the children of ours.

863
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,480
So despite the years of abuse, they had already suffered.

864
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:26,040
Charmaine would remain adamant that it would soon be over stating to Anna Marie, quote,

865
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,560
mommy will come and save me, end quote.

866
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:29,720
Oh my God.

867
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:31,040
I know.

868
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,760
It was also noted that around this time, Charmaine would frequently tell Rose, quote, my real

869
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,160
mommy wouldn't swear or shout at us, end quote.

870
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:40,160
Like it's very sad.

871
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,160
Oh my God.

872
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,160
I know.

873
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:47,480
A childhood friend of Charmaine's called Tracy Guiles would later report an incident

874
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,520
in which she had entered the home unannounced, only to see Charmaine naked and standing on

875
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,640
a chair gagged with her hands bound behind her back with a belt.

876
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,160
Next to her stood Rose with a wooden spoon in her hand.

877
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,760
Oh my God.

878
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:09,200
According to Tracy, Charmaine had been, quote, calm and unconcerned, end quote, while Anna

879
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,640
Marie was stood close by with a blank look on her face.

880
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,480
Like it was so casual.

881
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:15,480
Yeah.

882
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,840
It's just, yeah, it's the level of abuse that they're used to.

883
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,720
On March 28, 1971, hospital records show that Charmaine had received treatment for a puncture

884
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:31,640
wound to her left ankle, which was explained by Rose that was the result of a household

885
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,720
accident.

886
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:39,280
Shortly before Fred's prison release, Rose took Charmaine, Anna Marie and Heather to visit

887
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,800
him on June 15, 1971.

888
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,000
Either on or shortly after this date, Charmaine would go missing.

889
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,000
No.

890
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,000
No.

891
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,080
Tracy Guiles' mother, Shirley, who lived in the upper flat of the home, stated that her

892
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,000
two daughters had been playmates of Charmaine and Anna Marie.

893
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,480
She stated that her family had moved away from the upper flat in April of 1971, but one day

894
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:11,480
in June, she brought Tracy to visit Charmaine, only for Tracy to be told by Rose, quote,

895
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,960
she's gone to live with her mother and bloody good riddance, end quote.

896
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,640
So she sent her away to Rena is what she was saying.

897
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,840
I was just about to ask, like, do these people not have, like, where are the neighbors?

898
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:23,840
Where are the friends?

899
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,080
Like, where are the family?

900
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,600
Like, where's the electricity man?

901
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:29,600
You know?

902
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:30,600
Like, the plumber.

903
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,800
Like, did nobody see anything?

904
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:33,960
Like, nobody's saying anything?

905
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:34,960
No.

906
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,480
People are missing, disappearing and getting abused.

907
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:37,480
Right.

908
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:38,480
Right.

909
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,680
It's like, it's almost like a don't ask, don't tell kind of thing, which is shitty.

910
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:42,680
Yeah.

911
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,240
So hearing this, that her friend was back living with her mom, Tracy got upset.

912
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:48,800
She began to cry.

913
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:54,120
And Shirley would later note that this, like, conversation definitely occurred while Fred

914
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,560
was still in prison because he wasn't there.

915
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,720
And she knew he was in prison.

916
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:03,400
Other people would begin to inquire about the whereabouts of Charmaine, to which Rose

917
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,240
would explain that she went back to live with Rena.

918
00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:11,720
When Fred was released from prison, Anna Marie would begin asking him where Charmaine went,

919
00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:13,280
to which he stated the same thing.

920
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,240
She was with Rena.

921
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:19,440
Anna Marie asked why her father, asked her father, excuse me, why her mother had come

922
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,440
to get Charmaine, but not her.

923
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:22,800
You know, that's my mom too.

924
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:23,800
Yeah.

925
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:29,200
To which Fred responded, and this is fucked up, quote, she wouldn't want you love, you're

926
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,520
the wrong color, end quote.

927
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:34,520
Like what?

928
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,120
She just did it again when she leaned into the video.

929
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:38,120
I can't do it in person.

930
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:39,120
I have to lean.

931
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,120
You hear, you hear what I'm fucking saying?

932
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:42,120
Oh my God.

933
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:43,120
Like that's fucked.

934
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:44,120
Oh, it is horrible.

935
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:45,120
Oh my God.

936
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,200
So I'm sure you're not surprised.

937
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,840
It is believed that Rose murdered Charmaine shortly before Fred's release from prison

938
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:58,840
and would store her body in the coal cellar of the home to await his return.

939
00:49:58,840 --> 00:49:59,840
Once he was back home.

940
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:00,840
Who said that?

941
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:01,840
Who said that?

942
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:02,840
Sorry?

943
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:03,840
Who said that?

944
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:04,840
I'm saying it's believed.

945
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:05,840
This is like speculation.

946
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:06,840
Okay.

947
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,840
I'll clear it up later, but once he was back home.

948
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:09,840
They said it.

949
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,160
They said it.

950
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,800
Fred would bury Charmaine's nude body in the yard close to the back door, but remained

951
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,400
adamant that he did not dismember her.

952
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:26,360
So yeah, it is known that when Fred returned home, he buried Charmaine's body in the yard,

953
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,760
but it's believed that Rose had murdered her and kept her waiting his arrival home.

954
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:32,760
Okay.

955
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,560
So do you think that it was maybe, I don't know.

956
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:41,120
I'm not going to say accidental because clearly she would be responsible for it, but like

957
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,440
she abused her to the point of death, you think?

958
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:45,440
I'm not sure.

959
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,440
Personally, just knowing like the whole story, I think it was intentional, but I guess you'll

960
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,320
have to make your opinion at the end of everything because I'm not exactly sure.

961
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,320
Yeah.

962
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,560
Because everyone has different.

963
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,120
Some people think that Fred killed her, but he was in jail.

964
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,040
It's a lot of speculation in this part.

965
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:10,280
But yes, so unfortunately Charmaine would be murdered and buried in the backyard.

966
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,040
While Rena was seldom visiting her children, she did care about their well-being, and in

967
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:20,160
the later half of August, 1971, she would come visit to inquire about her children's

968
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,160
whereabouts.

969
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,400
Well, Charmaine's.

970
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,520
It seems as though when Fred was incarcerated, Rose was not allowing Rena to visit her kids

971
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:29,800
or even talk to them.

972
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,400
So I guess when he came back, she's like, okay, now that he's back, I'm going to go

973
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,320
fucking find out what's going on.

974
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:35,320
Yeah.

975
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:36,320
Yeah.

976
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,040
Well, I'm sure that she was abusing her that old, abusing the kids this whole time.

977
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,240
She didn't want Rena knowing.

978
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:45,720
So Fred's sister-in-law named Christine would later recall that Rena seemed depressed and

979
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,200
extremely anxious about her children's welfare.

980
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:49,200
I think you're right.

981
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,400
She was like being like, she was not allowed to know.

982
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,880
She would finally locate Fred and Rose and confront them likely to discuss or demand

983
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,560
custody of her daughters.

984
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,040
This would be the final time that Rena was seen alive.

985
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:05,040
Again?

986
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,040
Oh my God.

987
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,200
It's terrible.

988
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:14,920
So he has killed the girlfriend, the little girlfriend, and then now the daughter is dead

989
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:15,920
and now Rena?

990
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:16,920
Yes.

991
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:17,920
Oh my God.

992
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:22,760
It is believed that Rena was murdered via strangulation, most likely in the backseat

993
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,960
of Fred's vehicle.

994
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,200
And I say it's believed because again, a lot of these bodies have been discovered, but

995
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:37,440
as far as what happened to lead them to death, it's all hearsay.

996
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:43,880
On January 29th, 1972, Fred and Rose would get married now that he's a free man.

997
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:44,880
Oh my God.

998
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,680
Yeah, it's like, oh, let me just kill my wife.

999
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:49,320
Let's go get married.

1000
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:54,800
The ceremony would take place at the Glauchester Registrar Office with Fred declaring himself

1001
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,680
as a bachelor on the paperwork.

1002
00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,200
You're gross.

1003
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:00,200
Hilarious.

1004
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,200
Well, I'm a bachelor.

1005
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,200
I'm not married.

1006
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:03,200
There have been things.

1007
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,360
He's not an eligible one.

1008
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:11,600
No family or friends were involved with this marriage either aside from Fred's brother

1009
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,840
John who acted as best man.

1010
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,880
John's just a loyal motherfucker.

1011
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,520
I guess so.

1012
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,400
Several months later, Rose would become pregnant with their second child and the family would

1013
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,240
move once again.

1014
00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:30,240
Initially, the three-story home was rented by others and many of the upper floors were

1015
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:35,000
converted into rented apartments to supplement household income.

1016
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,560
To make sure his family had some privacy, they were on the bottom floor.

1017
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,200
Fred would install a kitchen and washroom on their floor to ensure that they did not

1018
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,400
need to be bothered by other people in the upstairs area.

1019
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,880
He also told the other lodgers that only he and his family were able to enter the garden

1020
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,800
area.

1021
00:53:53,800 --> 00:54:00,640
On June 1st, 1972, Rose West would give birth to the couple's second daughter, May, June,

1022
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:07,960
happily named due to the fact that she was most likely in labor in the months of May

1023
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:08,960
and June.

1024
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:09,960
It's not.

1025
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:10,960
It's so creative.

1026
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:11,960
But it's M.A.E., right?

1027
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:12,960
She did a little bit of work.

1028
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:13,960
Yeah, okay, yeah.

1029
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:14,960
It's May, June.

1030
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,240
May, June, July, August, okay.

1031
00:54:19,240 --> 00:54:24,400
Shortly after giving birth to her second child, Rose would begin working as a sex worker,

1032
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,960
operating from an upstairs room at their home.

1033
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,600
Again, part of the pattern.

1034
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:46,680
In addition to her prostitution, Rose would also engage in casual sex with both male and

1035
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:52,280
female lodgers in the home and people who Fred encountered during his work.

1036
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:53,400
But he knew about this.

1037
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,600
It wasn't like she was hiding this from him.

1038
00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:00,320
Well, I'm sure he doesn't care about her as long as she's getting paid.

1039
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:01,680
The money up front.

1040
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:07,200
Rose would be known around this time to brag frequently about how no man or woman could

1041
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,720
ever completely satisfy her.

1042
00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:12,840
Like you're gross.

1043
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:13,840
No one needs to know that.

1044
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:14,840
You're done.

1045
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:15,840
You're done.

1046
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,040
No one needs to know.

1047
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:22,800
On top of this, Rose was known for being particularly physically harsh when engaging in sex with

1048
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,240
women.

1049
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:29,240
She would gradually increase the brutality to which she subjected her partner, including

1050
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:37,720
partially suffocating them or inserting large sex toys into various areas to inflict pain.

1051
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:43,000
If the women resisted this or expressed any fear or concern, this would make Rose really

1052
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,640
excited.

1053
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,880
She would usually respond to any concerns by stating, quote, aren't you woman enough to

1054
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:49,880
take it?

1055
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:50,880
End quote.

1056
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:51,880
Like fuck you.

1057
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:52,880
Oh my god.

1058
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:54,840
I'm woman enough to tell you to fuck off.

1059
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,840
Like get away from me.

1060
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,880
That's sick.

1061
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:04,480
To many of the women involved in sex with both Rose and Fred, it became apparent that

1062
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:10,640
the two of them took particular pleasure in taking women beyond their sexual limits.

1063
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,520
In order to satisfy their fetishes, the couple would create a large collection of bondage

1064
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,800
and restraining devices, magazines, and photographs.

1065
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,720
They would later expand their collection to include videos depicting bestiality and graphic

1066
00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:27,040
sexual, child sexual abuse, excuse me.

1067
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,880
Yeah, so it's like, and again, it seems like it escalates quickly, but it's like this couple,

1068
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:32,880
they're feeding off of each other.

1069
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:37,640
And with their shitty upbringings, like they're just getting worse together, you know?

1070
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,720
And I'm sure he has a lot of influence in that.

1071
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:47,480
The room that Rose used for her sex work would become known as quote, Rose's room, end quote.

1072
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:54,040
And it had several hidden peepholes allowing Fred to watch her with her clients.

1073
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,160
Oh, my God.

1074
00:56:56,160 --> 00:57:01,080
Oh, he's like, he's like a, like a cuckold type of guy.

1075
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:02,360
So gross.

1076
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:09,400
But still, yeah, I think that she's not a very creative person.

1077
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:14,120
She named her daughter Mae June and now her room is Rose's room.

1078
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:15,120
Yeah, right.

1079
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:19,080
So anyway, not shaming anybody for their sexual fetishes, but as long as it's consensual,

1080
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,200
and apparently this is not consensual with these women, like clearly.

1081
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,200
Right.

1082
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:24,200
That's, yeah.

1083
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,280
I mean, not, yeah, kink shaming is my kink.

1084
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,640
So, I'm kidding.

1085
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:31,640
But no, I mean, yeah, not to kink shame anyone.

1086
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:39,760
I mean, do you, but you know, yeah, it's when it, when it is that, you know, these clients

1087
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:47,520
of hers are probably people who want to keep something like that private and not be known,

1088
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:48,720
like a well-known thing.

1089
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:54,440
So she's utilized, she's essentially blackmailing to get sexual gratification of them.

1090
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,640
I feel like, like she could at any point be like, well, you're going to do what I say

1091
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,880
because I'll tell everyone, you know, kind of a thing.

1092
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,440
You know, nobody wants to be outed.

1093
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,200
And it's also like everyone's doing it.

1094
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,200
Like why not?

1095
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:08,200
You know?

1096
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:09,200
Yeah.

1097
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,840
So, in the top of the P-Poles, Fred would also install a baby monitor in the room in

1098
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,120
which he could listen from anywhere in the home.

1099
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:20,920
The room also included a private bar and a red light installed outside that would allow

1100
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,440
people to know when Rose was using the room, like don't come in.

1101
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,440
Gross.

1102
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:27,880
She had her own red light disturbed.

1103
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:28,880
Yeah.

1104
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,520
Lastly, there was only one key to this room and Rose was known to wear it around her neck

1105
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:33,520
at all times.

1106
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,760
Like no one else was allowed in there besides her and her client at the time.

1107
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,240
She sounds like a villain of like a storybook.

1108
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:42,720
Villain origin story.

1109
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:43,720
Yeah.

1110
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:49,120
It's like Sweeney Todd, H.H. Holmes, Rose's room, you know.

1111
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:50,640
Rose's room.

1112
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:51,640
Double R.

1113
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:56,640
So, due to the fact that she was making most of the money, Rose was in charge of all of

1114
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:01,480
the money that her and Fred made and most of it would go to home improvements, quote,

1115
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:02,480
unquote.

1116
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:03,480
Okay.

1117
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:12,200
By 1977, Rose's father Bill had come to at least tolerate her and Fred's marriage.

1118
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:18,240
He would reluctantly become civil with Fred and the two would eventually open a cafe together

1119
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,200
that they named the Green Lantern.

1120
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:27,160
Well, the business would not work out very well and the men would soon find themselves

1121
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,600
not being able to pay the bills to keep it afloat.

1122
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:36,960
So once Bill discovered that his daughter was engaging in prostitution, he did what

1123
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:41,400
any father would do in this situation and he would go visit her himself for his own

1124
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:42,400
pleasure.

1125
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:43,400
Oh my God.

1126
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:44,480
Isn't that fucking disgusting?

1127
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:50,440
When I wrote that, I was like, oh my God, I literally cannot believe that.

1128
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:51,440
He's like, you're dead to me.

1129
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:52,440
I don't want to see you.

1130
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:53,440
You're not allowed in my household.

1131
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:54,440
Oh, but let's have sex really quick.

1132
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:55,440
I'll pay you for it.

1133
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:56,440
Like that is so fucking gross.

1134
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:57,440
This is not in my house.

1135
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,360
Oh my God, that is so disgusting.

1136
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:01,360
What a fucking loser.

1137
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:05,840
And then you know, that's the only reason that he was trying to be chummy with fucking

1138
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:06,840
Fred.

1139
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:12,240
No, well, yeah, I mean, it sounds like more like he's like a jealous ex-boy from the

1140
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:13,240
knees of father.

1141
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:14,240
Exactly.

1142
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:15,240
He's so gross.

1143
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:22,080
By 1983, Rose was known to have given birth to eight children, at least three of whom

1144
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,040
were fathered by her clients.

1145
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:26,040
Yeah.

1146
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,040
Johns.

1147
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:28,040
Yes.

1148
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,280
They were all named Johns.

1149
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,960
Although they were not all his, Fred would willingly accept the children as his own and

1150
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:39,920
falsely told them that the reason their skin was darker than their siblings was because

1151
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,480
his great grandmother was black.

1152
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:44,800
What the like?

1153
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:45,800
That's not how that works.

1154
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:46,800
Right.

1155
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:47,800
And you're such an idiot.

1156
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,040
Like, so stupid.

1157
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,880
And you know, he doesn't care about these children.

1158
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,960
He's going to keep them because it makes them look like a good guy because he has all these

1159
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:03,200
coods, you know, it's not for any other reason for his, other than his own pleasure.

1160
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:04,800
No, of course.

1161
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:09,440
And then if anything, it's a cycle of abuse because he's going to continue to abuse the

1162
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,720
children psychologically and physically.

1163
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:17,440
And you know, it benefits him to make these children feel like, oh, my dad's so great.

1164
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,280
He accepted me even though I'm not his or whatever it is.

1165
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:26,800
Or I am his biological child in order to like lull them into this false sense of security.

1166
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:27,800
This just grows.

1167
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:28,800
Exactly.

1168
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,960
When each of these children reached the age of seven, similarly to Fred's upbringing,

1169
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:37,800
they were assigned daily chores to perform in the house.

1170
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,480
They were rarely allowed to socialize outside of the household unless one of their parents

1171
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:43,360
were there.

1172
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:48,560
They were also made to follow strict guidelines with severe punishment, usually physical,

1173
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,680
being the penalty for not following the rules.

1174
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:52,680
I know.

1175
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,520
It's just like the same thing you write the cycle of abuse.

1176
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:56,960
Yeah.

1177
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:02,720
The vast majority of the physical beatings came from Rose, with some coming from Fred.

1178
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:07,060
In one instance, the eldest daughter Heather and her younger brother Steven would run away

1179
01:02:07,060 --> 01:02:09,640
from home to escape the violence.

1180
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:15,240
However, the two would return home after several weeks of sleeping at friends' homes or outside,

1181
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:19,520
and they were both beaten upon returning home.

1182
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:20,520
For returning?

1183
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:21,520
For returning home.

1184
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,120
This is literally the reason I left.

1185
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,920
Now you're going to continue to do it as soon as I get back.

1186
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:31,720
Between 1972 and 1992, the West children were admitted to the accident and emergency department

1187
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:36,680
of local hospitals 31 times.

1188
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:41,520
For various injuries or investigations surrounding their physical injuries?

1189
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,800
Each time the injuries were explained away as accidents and none would ever be reported

1190
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,920
to social services.

1191
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:48,920
That's negligence.

1192
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:50,000
Who the fuck is negligence?

1193
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,120
Who the fuck is not saying anything?

1194
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:58,800
On another occasion, Steven was mopping the floor with a cloth and Rose accidentally stepped

1195
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,840
into the bowl of water he had been using.

1196
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,840
In response, Rose would just...

1197
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:04,840
Sorry.

1198
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,120
There just happened to be a toaster in the water.

1199
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:08,120
God, that's terrible.

1200
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,480
No, this is not funny, though.

1201
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,320
She slipped and she accidentally fell out of her head and ended up in the oven.

1202
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:15,320
Sorry.

1203
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:16,320
She fell.

1204
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:17,320
It was an accident.

1205
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,960
In response, Rose would hit Steven over the head with the bowl and then repeatedly kicked

1206
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:27,240
him in the head and chest while shouting, quote, you did that on purpose, you little swine,

1207
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:28,240
end quote.

1208
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:32,560
Like, yeah, I strategically placed this bowl of water that I'm using to clean right in

1209
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:34,280
the way of your big fat foot.

1210
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,680
Like no.

1211
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:42,560
On another occasion, Rose became enraged about a missing kitchen utensil and in response,

1212
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:47,280
grabbed a knife she had been using to cut meat, repeatedly inflicting light cuts on

1213
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,640
May's chest, covering it in knife wounds.

1214
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,080
What the fuck is wrong with this person?

1215
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:59,000
While this was happening, May was reportedly shouting, quote, no mom, no mom, end quote,

1216
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:03,560
as Steven and Heather stood by helplessly.

1217
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,720
The torture of the children in the home would only get worse from here on out.

1218
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:13,400
In September of 1972, Rose and Fred led eight-year-old Anna Marie to the cellar at their home, where

1219
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,080
she was forced to undress.

1220
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:20,160
Anna would initially hesitate to undress, causing Rose to snatch her dress and tear

1221
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:22,400
it from her body.

1222
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:26,400
Anna Marie was then restrained and raped by her father, with Rose actively encouraging

1223
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:28,800
the act.

1224
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,440
Following this, Rose followed Anna Marie to the bathroom and handed her a towel to clean

1225
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:36,520
up, stating, quote, I'm sorry, everybody does it to every girl.

1226
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:37,960
It's a father's job.

1227
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,800
Don't worry and don't say anything to anybody, end quote.

1228
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:43,240
Oh my, I have to leave.

1229
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:44,720
I have to get out of here.

1230
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:45,720
This is disgusting.

1231
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:47,520
No, it's gross.

1232
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:53,400
Like, it's a father's job to protect his fucking children, not to abuse them.

1233
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,440
That's so gross.

1234
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,480
Rose and Fred would go on to make it clear that this would not be the first time this

1235
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:05,040
would happen, and if Anna Marie said anything to anyone that they would beat her.

1236
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,640
Rose would occasionally take it upon herself to sexually assault Anna Marie on her own,

1237
01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,400
and took extreme gratification and binding her to different things before encouraging

1238
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,120
Fred to assault her.

1239
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:20,160
And it gets much more detailed from there, but I just couldn't even put it in here.

1240
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:24,640
From the age of 13, Fred and Rose would force Anna Marie to prostitute herself within the

1241
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:25,640
household.

1242
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:30,440
However, the couple would tell clients the Anna Marie was 16, because that's better.

1243
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,440
Well, they're like, oh, she's 16?

1244
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:33,440
Cool.

1245
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:34,440
It's the UK though.

1246
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:35,440
They can drink at 16, I'm pretty sure.

1247
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:36,440
I guess.

1248
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,280
That's so gross.

1249
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:43,720
Rose was always present in the room when this occurred, mostly to ensure that Anna did not

1250
01:05:43,720 --> 01:05:46,840
reveal her true age.

1251
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:51,720
On one occasion, when Anna Marie was about 13 or 14, Rose took her to a local pub and

1252
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:56,280
insisted that she drink several glasses of barley wine.

1253
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:00,440
Several hours later, Fred would arrive at the pub to pick the girls up.

1254
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:04,640
Once they had left, Anna Marie was pushed into the van and beaten by Rose, who asked

1255
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,400
her, quote, do you think you could be my friend?

1256
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:08,400
End quote.

1257
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:14,520
Oh, I'm sorry, before she was sexually assaulted by both of her parents in the vehicle.

1258
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,080
So it's like you brought me out, you're acting like we're all cool, you're giving me drinks,

1259
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:22,600
like you're a cool mom, and then you're berating me for thinking that you're a cool person?

1260
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:23,600
Or what?

1261
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:26,600
She's got, again, this is a teenager.

1262
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:31,000
She has a teenager's mind, and she's stunted at that age just like Fred.

1263
01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:36,400
They're both stunted at a very young teenager, and they don't know how to process emotions

1264
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,600
in a way that's not demoralizing to someone else.

1265
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:45,080
Yeah, it's absolutely horrible.

1266
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:50,560
In October of 1972, the West family would hire a 17 year old, Carolyn Owens, to be a

1267
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:51,560
nanny for the children.

1268
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:52,720
Oh, okay, she's gonna die.

1269
01:06:52,720 --> 01:07:00,120
I know if you heard the date in 1992 earlier, I did say that, but I was just giving a general

1270
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,960
now we're back to 1972, because I was trying to say how many times they had gone in within

1271
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:04,960
20 years.

1272
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,440
So now we're back in 1972.

1273
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,200
Carolyn had visited her boyfriend one night and was hitchhiking home when Rose and Fred

1274
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,200
picked her up.

1275
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:17,800
Hearing that Carolyn did not have a good relationship with her stepfather and was looking for a

1276
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:22,560
job to get away from him, the West would offer her part-time employment as a nanny for three

1277
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:28,680
of their children, and even promised that they would drive her home each Tuesday.

1278
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,980
Several days later, Carolyn would move into the home with the West family.

1279
01:07:32,980 --> 01:07:37,440
She would be placed in a room with Anna Marie, whom she would immediately notice was, quote,

1280
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:40,320
very withdrawn, end quote.

1281
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,720
Rose would explain to Carolyn who had inquired about the amount of men who were coming and

1282
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:47,880
going that she was a skilled masseuse.

1283
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,160
And the happy endings are my specialty.

1284
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:51,960
Ew, gross.

1285
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:59,840
Well, just want to say from like ghosts, it just reminds me of what would be Goldberg

1286
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,760
when she's like, Molly, you endanger girl.

1287
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,000
You got to get out of there.

1288
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,080
What are you doing?

1289
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:09,600
But how is she supposed to know any better?

1290
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,880
These people are clearly good at masking their true selves.

1291
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,000
They're clearly good at being fake.

1292
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:20,560
And I guess that with her not having the full realization of what she got into until she

1293
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:25,600
met Anna Marie.

1294
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,880
According to Carolyn, Fred also told her that he was skilled in performing abortions.

1295
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,640
Should she ever find herself in need of one?

1296
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:33,640
Just foreshadowing.

1297
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,640
What an odd thing to say.

1298
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:36,640
Geez, Louise.

1299
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:39,760
What an odd thing to fucking say.

1300
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,280
Fred would talk to Carolyn about sex almost constantly.

1301
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:47,200
And it became clear that something was off when Fred told her that the women whom he

1302
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:51,760
had performed abortions on were usually so satisfied that they would offer him sex in

1303
01:08:51,760 --> 01:08:52,960
return.

1304
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:54,800
That didn't fucking happen.

1305
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:56,560
Like that did not fucking happen.

1306
01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:57,760
That is a serious delusion.

1307
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:59,760
You are so gross.

1308
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,880
Like that is delulu why it's fine.

1309
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:04,880
You are nasty.

1310
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,320
I thought you were going to say that he was like, oh yeah, all the abortions I performed

1311
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,240
were on my own family.

1312
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:11,960
Oh, that's gross.

1313
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:12,960
No, he didn't say that.

1314
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:13,960
Well, I don't know.

1315
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:14,960
You might say that.

1316
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:15,960
He's at some point.

1317
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:16,960
Probably.

1318
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,120
That's probably where he gets the majority of his experience, which is gross.

1319
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:21,800
That's true, which is really gross.

1320
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:26,120
So Rose and Fred would quickly begin making sexual advances towards Carolyn, but she was

1321
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:29,360
not interested in taking them up on it.

1322
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:33,560
Carolyn would announce her intentions to leave the home and she would quit returning to her

1323
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:34,560
home.

1324
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:40,040
However, Rose and Fred knew that Carolyn was commonly hitchhiking in a certain area and

1325
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:43,880
together they would come up with a plan to abduct her.

1326
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:47,680
So she got out, she left, she's home, but she's still hitchhiking.

1327
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,600
Not to blame her at all for saying they know this.

1328
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,280
And it was very popular in the 60s and 70s too.

1329
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:53,520
Of course, yeah.

1330
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:57,400
Fred would state that he initially asked Rose if she would be willing to assist him in the

1331
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,800
abduction to which she agreed.

1332
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:07,560
On December 6th, 1972, Rose and Fred would come upon Carolyn on the side of the road.

1333
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:11,400
They would lure her into their vehicle with apologies for their conduct and they offered

1334
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,000
her a ride home.

1335
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:18,220
Initially, Carolyn believed that the apologies were sincere and essentially kind of gaslit

1336
01:10:18,220 --> 01:10:21,720
herself into thinking that she was just misreading their initial advances.

1337
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:22,720
So scary.

1338
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:23,720
I know.

1339
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:27,320
She's like, well, I must just be like, I mean, they're really cool people.

1340
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,920
Maybe I was maybe just being like, yeah, maybe I was just paranoid.

1341
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,760
Maybe I haven't had enough life experience that I wouldn't.

1342
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:38,200
I don't know if this is the way adults are.

1343
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:42,400
Rose would hop in the backseat with Carolyn stating that she wanted a quote girls chat

1344
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,040
as Fred drove.

1345
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:49,280
Shortly after getting in the backseat, Rose would begin fondling Carolyn as Fred asked

1346
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:53,840
her if she had engaged in sex with her boyfriend earlier that evening.

1347
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:59,080
Like he wanted to know if she had recently had sex, which is gross.

1348
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:05,200
When Carolyn began to protest, Fred stopped the car and began referring to her as bitch.

1349
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:10,080
He would then punch her into unconsciousness before Rose bound and gagged her with a scarf

1350
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:11,080
and duck.

1351
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:13,640
Oh my God.

1352
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:18,040
Carolyn would be given a drug cup of tea to drink before being gagged once again and

1353
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:22,320
Rose and Fred would both begin sexually assaulting her.

1354
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:27,800
At one point, Fred made a comment on the appearance of Carolyn's genitals and then began hitting

1355
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:32,520
her in that area with a leather butt.

1356
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:37,280
When Carolyn screamed, Rose would smother her with a pillow and continue the assault.

1357
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:39,000
So horrible.

1358
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,840
At this point, Carolyn realized the gravity of the situation she was in and would stop

1359
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:46,720
resisting hoping that it would benefit her.

1360
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:51,440
The following morning, one of the children would knock on the door that Carolyn was restrained

1361
01:11:51,440 --> 01:11:53,280
in and she would scream out for help.

1362
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:54,440
Oh my God.

1363
01:11:54,440 --> 01:11:57,080
What is happening?

1364
01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,640
So they took her back to the house when she was unconscious.

1365
01:12:00,640 --> 01:12:03,800
Fred would come into the room and threaten Carolyn by telling her that he would keep

1366
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:09,440
her locked up in the cellar and allow his quote black friends and quote to abuse her.

1367
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:13,920
And when they were finished, he would bury her body beneath quote the paving stones of

1368
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,760
Glaucuster and quote, which is really fucking.

1369
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:19,240
I'm in shock right now.

1370
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:25,840
Fred, yeah, Fred then claimed that he had killed hundreds of young girls, adding that

1371
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:33,080
Carolyn had only been brought back to the home for quote, Rose's pleasure and quote.

1372
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:34,480
And that's what we're going to stop for part one.

1373
01:12:34,480 --> 01:12:38,160
I am fucking gooped, gagged.

1374
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:40,160
What is happening?

1375
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:42,360
Right.

1376
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:44,680
So we're stopping there for part one.

1377
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:50,880
It just gets worse from here, y'all, and obviously these people are fucking monsters.

1378
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:54,800
It just gets more and more like you have your hands on your face.

1379
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,520
Like you can't even fucking talk like what the fuck.

1380
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,040
It is plot twist after plot twist.

1381
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,240
And we just simply don't have time to make this less than a three-parter.

1382
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:10,400
So we're going to end here and we will see you guys in a week for part two.

1383
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,320
And by the time you hear part two, I will be in Alaska.

1384
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:16,520
I'm really excited.

1385
01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:17,840
But we're going to go ahead and cut it here.

1386
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:19,160
Do you have anything else before we?

1387
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:20,160
I don't.

1388
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:22,880
I really just, I can't wait to record the next one.

1389
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:24,720
This is, this is insane.

1390
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:25,720
This is insane.

1391
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:26,720
Yeah.

1392
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:30,440
And then as far as mental health and all that stuff that we usually talk about, we'll do

1393
01:13:30,440 --> 01:13:34,000
that at the end of part three just because we can recap everything at the end of that

1394
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:37,080
and we'll be able to kind of dive deeper into that.

1395
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:40,960
But very clearly, like a lot of abuse from the start, you know, we see the cycle of abuse

1396
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:46,320
that obviously turns into shitty situations like this sometimes, you know?

1397
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:49,560
And it's up to people, you know, most of the time to break that cycle.

1398
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,200
And unfortunately that does not happen in certain situations.

1399
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:54,680
And it just, it's just sick.

1400
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:55,680
It's just fucking sick.

1401
01:13:55,680 --> 01:14:00,880
I think especially since they continue to, yeah, they're constantly pushing each other

1402
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:04,800
to perform these abusive acts on others.

1403
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:10,680
And they have, you know, a company in that, a company meant in that, you know, they get

1404
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:14,680
essentially like support, it's negative support, but support in that.

1405
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:16,800
And it's encouraged.

1406
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:21,640
And, you know, you don't feel like I'm sure neither of them really, I'm sure they both

1407
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:22,640
know that it's wrong.

1408
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:27,840
I'm not saying that they don't, but with the added pressure of someone else saying that

1409
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:32,800
it's not wrong, it's just, I mean, it'll continue to happen.

1410
01:14:32,800 --> 01:14:33,800
Yeah.

1411
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:40,120
I'm one of them, like I said, trips and falls inside of an oven or jumps off a cliff by the

1412
01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:41,120
end of this.

1413
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:42,120
So we'll see.

1414
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:43,120
Oh man.

1415
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:47,320
Well, unfortunately in part two, there is a lot more horrible crime to come.

1416
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:52,320
And then of course in part three, we will talk about the end of their reign of terror,

1417
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:53,320
if you will.

1418
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:58,000
But yeah, come visit us again next week for part two and we will see you next time.

1419
01:14:58,000 --> 01:14:59,000
All right.

1420
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:00,000
Love you.

1421
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,000
Love you.

1422
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:02,000
Bye.

1423
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,000
Bye.

1424
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:04,000
Bye.

1425
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:05,000
Bye.

1426
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:06,000
Bye.

1427
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,000
Bye.

1428
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,000
Bye.

1429
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,000
Bye.

1430
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:10,000
Bye.

1431
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,000
Bye.

1432
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:41,000
Bye.