Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Goelle.
And I'm Kenna. And we sound a little weird.
We sound a little weird because we are testing out, recording in two separate rooms. You know,
we are trying to be adult women here and eventually we will have to move out. So I think, you know,
in practice of that or looking forward to that, we're kind of looking towards, yeah, like,
trying some stuff out. So I might sound a little funky. Kenna has the original setup with her.
So she probably sounds great. I probably sound like a robot. I might sound a little weird.
Maybe just a little bit. Yeah. And see, we're gonna probably interrupt each other a lot because
we do have a touch of a lag. But I do have the original setup. I just have a different like
closet. So my echo, I don't know if it's there. I don't think it's there. But it's definitely
different. I think it's, yeah, it's kind of funny too because we're so used to recording in front
of each other that we can see each other's body language. So we know when one's about to speak
or something as well. Right. So this is the first time we're actually using the sweet, very sweet
gift from Louis. Louis sent us a microphone because he loves it so much. So he sent us a little bit
of a secondary setup. And thanks, Lou. Yeah, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Anything
to help propel the podcast forward. Yeah, I can't wait for him to buy me a drink later because
he's in town. So all right, with that, would you like to give everyone our handles? Sure, if you
are new here, you can follow us anywhere on social media at diagnosing a killer with the exception
of X formerly known as Twitter, which is at killer diagnosis. We do have a email setup that is
diagnosing a killer at gmail.com. You can send a request for a case there or if you just want to
chat, you can also DM us for those as well on Instagram. We do have Venmo, PayPal, Cash App,
all that good stuff set up as well. If you would like to support us that way. And then last but
definitely not least, we have a great Patreon community. We have four tiers on that Patreon.
Tier one is going to get ad free mental breakdowns every week. Tears two, three and four will get
ad free both episodes or every episode that comes out. And here's three and four will get an
additional bonus episode at the end of each month. So go ahead and check that out. It takes just a
couple minutes to sign up. And we have about almost 12, I think episodes, the next one's coming
out soon for those bonus.
Thank you. Oh, you know, what's so funny is that at the beginning, we forgot to say this is the
mentee breakie. I just thought it was a diagnosis.
It's the mentee breakie.
Yeah, I just said welcome back to diagnosing a killer. But this is the mentee breakie for everyone
that doesn't know. Monday cases are actually not cases. In fact, we usually talk about
disorders or experiments or specific types of people or interesting cases, things like people
that get acquitted or, you know, interesting stuff like that. So that's usually our Mondays.
And then on Thursdays will be our regularly scheduled cases.
Definitely. And the AC just kicked on in my room. If anyone heard that, it's gonna be there for a
little while.
So I feel like it's so quiet in here, but it's just not the usual setup. So it's kind of funny.
Exactly.
Alrighty, so with that, today we are going to be talking about cap-gra disorder or cap-gra delusion
or cap-gra syndrome.
I feel like I've heard the term before, but I don't I couldn't tell you off the top of my head
what it is. It is also known by the French name, l'allusion des suézi.
Whoa, look at that accent.
I know, right?
That was perfect.
I had to spell it phonetically.
I love that.
So this also translates to the illusion of lookalikes or doppelgangers. So Joseph Capra
was a French psychiatrist who co-coined the term in a paper after studying a woman who
claimed to have a condition in which she believed that her husband was actually replaced by
another person or being.
Okay.
She was nicknamed Madame Macabre. Isn't that interesting?
That is interesting.
So cap-gra disorder is a very rare condition. It is not currently recognized by the DSM-5
and it is more so classified as an unspecified delusional disorder.
Okay. That's what I was thinking when you said she had the delusion thinking that he
was someone else or maybe replaced by someone else. That reminds me of one of those schizotypal
delusional, you know, the things that they trick your brain, the delusions of, you know,
like delusions of grandeur or delusions of yada yada. It would be one of those. That's
what I was thinking of.
Correct. Yeah. With the paranoia as well.
Yes.
So although originally believed to be a psychiatric disorder similar to schizophrenia, at the
time cap-gra disorder was assumed to be linked to hysteria because why not? Let's go girls.
Of course.
And it was predominantly seen in female patients around the time. So that's probably why they
came to this conclusion, which is not totally correct.
Yeah. That's interesting too. I feel like right now, sorry, there's a lot of patients
now that are diagnosed with schizophrenia spectrum disorder, but I feel like it's pretty male-dominated
now that diagnosis.
Yeah. Yeah. With cap-gra though, for whatever reason, it is predominantly in females. It's
also predominantly in black people as well. And I'm not entirely sure why, but it's also,
there's also we'll get into the comorbidities as well.
So yeah. And it could be definitely a genetic lineage thing.
Yes. So for the research into cap-gra disorder in the 1980s, actually linked the syndrome
with patients who were also diagnosed with things like dementia or Alzheimer's.
Okay.
So up to 80% of cases of cap-gra disorder are people who have experienced neurodegenerative
conditions. Oftentimes someone with Parkinson's or epilepsy, people who have had stroke or
brain injury or even other mental disorders such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
Hmm.
So yeah, it's definitely, I mean, you would think that you see that now there's commercials,
right? About people that have dementia or Alzheimer's and there's like an aggression
there.
Yeah.
And it's because they're so frustrated. They don't trust the people that are around
them to take care of them as well.
That's got to be scary.
It does. It has to be really scary.
Symptoms of cap-gra disorder are that the patient is in disbelief that a loved one is
the person whom they're presenting themselves to be. But this can also stretch not just
to loved ones, but to distrusting acquaintances, pets, and even inanimate objects.
What?
Yeah. Like I was wondering if that meant, this sounds so, I don't know, maybe I'll have
to do more of a look-see on that. But you know, like if you think that maybe your lamp
is bugged.
Okay. That makes a little more sense.
Yeah. I don't think it's necessarily that you think that your refrigerator is your husband
or anything.
That's what I was thinking. That's like, dang, that could be anything.
These emotions felt by the patient might come and go, especially in dementia or Alzheimer
patients. In some cases, people suffering from cap-grau disorder may become aggressive
or violent in an effort to defend themselves from the imposter, which again, is really
scary.
That is really scary. But again, it reminds me a lot of someone that's on the schizophrenic
spectrum. Like you could have those delusions and you could think that maybe your mother
has been replaced by an alien or a CIA agent or something. You know, it sounds very similar
to that type of delusion.
Yeah. This disorder is not to be confused with imposter syndrome, however. And for those
of you who don't know, imposter syndrome is defined by psychology today as saying, quote,
people who struggle with imposter syndrome believe that they are undeserving of their
accomplishments and the high esteem in which they are in fact generally held. They feel
that they aren't as competent or intelligent as others might think and soon enough, people
will discover the truth about them. Those with imposter syndrome, which is not an official
diagnosis, are often well accomplished and they may hold a high office or numerous academic
degrees and quote.
Are you going to call me out like that?
I was too nervous.
I was like, oh, I called you outright when you said it.
So in contrast, cap-gross syndrome is diagnosed by a series of physical and mental tests,
including in-depth imaging of the brain by MRI or EEG. Do you know what those stand for?
MRI is mirror radiology innovations. No, it's not. No, I mean, I know EEG is the heart,
right? And then MRI is like the whole body.
Well, I think they're both brain, but yeah.
Oh, that was cool.
Because you can isolate MRI. It's okay. I just, I didn't look up to see what the acronym
was representing. I just figured you watched the much-grays anatomy.
I can look it up.
Looking for a new perfume or cologne to match your style? Scentbird has got you covered.
With over 600 cents to fall in love with, Scentbird is a fragrance subscription box
that will give you plenty of choices. Just choose what you would like from their best
sellers, activate your subscription, and receive your first 120 spray bottle. Click the link
in the show notes now to receive an exclusive offer with Scentbird.
Okay. Oh, got it. Okay. Magnetic resonance imaging. I was kind of close.
Okay. Yeah.
And you said EEG?
EEG, yeah.
EEG.
Not EKG. I think EEG.
Yeah. EKG is the heart. EEG is electro-electron-synphilography. It's like one long word. I don't
know how to say it.
There it is, folks.
Often it is found that capgrawl disorder is caused by various lesions or markings along
the brain's frontal lobe or right hemisphere, which damages the central nervous system.
That makes sense.
With this damage, it is theorized that the brain may not be able to cognitively recognize
someone else's face. Further complicating this, the brain then creates an emotional
response that is not in alliance with the patient's normal response to maybe a loved
one. Although these are professional guesses, there is no one cause or confirmation that
this is exactly the reason why capgrawl develops. Essentially, there are no facial recognition
in some of these cases of capgrawl. People aren't able to look at a person and see that
familiar face that they're used to.
That's so interesting because that's something that I've read about before. People are designed,
their brains are designed to recognize faces, of course, familiar faces, but also create
faces out of something that may not be a face, like an inanimate object, like you said.
I'm not alone here. I know I'm not. But if you're driving behind a car and you see
their two-tail light and then they have a little dent on the bottom and it looks like
two eyes and a little smile or something, your brain is not made to recognize that,
but that's part of the human mind. I've read, it's like, yeah, you're supposed to see faces,
which is why it's so easy for people to hallucinate faces when they're doing hallucinogenic drugs
or just hallucinating in general due to a mental disorder.
It's interesting to me that it's almost the opposite.
Yeah, I think that we're trained to realize what's familiar and what's not familiar because
that's where we know we're safe. I can't imagine what it must feel like to sit next to someone
that let's say you're married to for a decade or two and to look over and suddenly you don't
recognize that person, how terrifying that must be.
Yeah, that's going to be really scary.
No wonder, like I said, when people tend to get aggressive or violent, they're trying
to defend themselves because they feel like they're in danger.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, it's heartbreaking, really.
Yeah, it's really scary.
There are many treatment options in order to treat underlying conditions or cor-morbid
conditions such as schizophrenia disorders or dementia. Some anti-psychotic medications
can be prescribed, but unfortunately, when treating someone with cap-grau, it can often
be difficult to regulate medication given the poor lack of understanding of one's condition.
Yeah, for sure.
If you think that, again, that example that I just gave about the husband, right, if he's
trying to feed you your medication but you don't trust him, you're going to take it?
Of course not.
Oh, we aren't.
Right?
God.
Is it the red bull or the blue one?
But that makes sense as well when you say it's kind of compared to people with Alzheimer's
or dementia. That's another thing too. It's like, I don't know you. I'm not going to take
this medication.
Yeah.
Or wait for my husband to come back. He'll give me the medication and then that is their
husband or something?
Yeah. Yeah, and it's especially got to be frustrating to go in and out of it.
Yeah.
One of the most famous cases of cap-grau disorder was the case of Tony Rosato. Tony Rosato
was an Italian-Canadian actor who was really well known for his participation on the live
skit show Saturday Night Live and would often rub elbows with the likes of Martin Short and
Dan Akroy. He was also known for his voice acting and animated TV shows such as The Busy
World of Richard Scary, Super Mario World and various other video games. Tony married
his wife Leah in 2003 and the couple would soon have a daughter. However, Tony began
experiencing some mental health issues and soon would often become angry. He insisted
that his wife and his daughter had been replaced by imposters and after he had become violent
on one occasion, Leah filed for separation.
Oh no. I mean, what is she going to do though? She's like, okay, I need to protect myself
and my child and she probably has no understanding of this disorder, but that's got to be so
scary on both of their ends.
Especially the fact that he's a prominent person too. I can't imagine how scared she
must be to want to support her husband and also out of respect for him keep some of his
issues between them, you know, but then how alone you must feel.
Yeah, that's got to be really hard.
Leah would also file harassment charges and Tony would be taken in for psychiatric evaluations.
Although Tony would be found guilty of harassment, he would not serve jail time as it was not
Leah's wish. Her wish was that he would get help. So Tony was then sentenced to stay in
a medical facility, mental facility, excuse me, for two years. After 19 months, Tony was
released. He was regulated on medication and the family had a second chance at life again.
Tony and Leah would raise their daughter together. Leah said around this time quote,
I think he's even better than when I first met him. It's incredible. When we spend our
time together, I'm just constantly amazed at how healthy he is. He's similar to when
we first met. I was falling in love when I was falling in love with him, except it's
better end quote.
It's really excuse me sweet.
Yeah, it is sweet. It's like a success story, you know, as well.
Yeah. The family would stay connected for the next several years, but ultimately the
couple would decide to divorce in 2010. Tony Rosado would pass away in 2017 to an unrelated
medical condition, a heart attack at 62. So yeah, it's kind of like a better sweet story.
Yeah, for sure. I think that when did you say the disorder was coined?
Oh, 1930s.
Oh, okay. So it's not super, super old, but I mean, it's within the last, I mean, 100
years, but still kind of new. I know in terms of maybe what they know about it. And you
know, you said that they don't have a definitive reasoning why it happens and other things
like that. But I wonder if it would be beneficial to be able to do something similar to like
a CTE situation where they can inspect the brain like postmortem. I wonder, and obviously
that's not the case with him, but other people, you know, that are experiencing that disorder
or the person that has like POA after that person dies, like maybe they could donate,
you know, that organ and see if they can find like a better understanding of it just based
on like a post-op autopsy.
Yeah, I think besides the lesions that they find regularly with cases like this, and I
would say regularly because I mean, it's just such a rare disorder. I really don't feel
like there's many opportunities to study it. So again, like with the lesions and stuff
like that that they found on the brain, I really do believe, however, that it is more
linked to other disorders. And that's, you know, initially the situation that's happening
and then the capra is a symptom of that.
Yeah, so it's rare for it to be diagnosed as like a standalone disorder.
Yeah, so again, there's not very many opportunities to research it. I mean, same thing with CTE,
you know, the traumatic brain injuries and stuff like that with contact sports. We rarely
get an opportunity to look at it, but when we do see it, it's pretty definitive that
that's what that is, you know?
Yeah.
There's just no way of proving it because the only way you can is postmortem.
Right, right.
The family of a loved one who is experiencing these symptoms may be overwhelmed. It is important
to remember that this is a disorder and it does not mean that your loved one loves you
any less. They cannot control how they are feeling, so it is important to meet your loved
one with patience and compassion. When struggling to identify with someone experiencing capra,
dementia or Alzheimer's, it is important to seek out personal and family therapy. This
can help the family and other loved ones of the patient understand the perspective of
someone experiencing these symptoms in order to ultimately help the patient through this
difficult time. If symptoms continue and the patient does become violent or they begin
to self-harm, it is paramount to seek professional treatment and this may even lead up to hospitalization.
And always, if you have an emergency, call 9-1-1-9-9-9 or your local emergency services.
Yeah, absolutely. That can be a very scary situation, especially since it is so rare,
like you were saying, but it is nice to be aware of the fact that that can happen, especially
if you have somebody that you are dealing with on a daily basis that has either Alzheimer's
or dementia or one of these other disorders that this can become a symptom of. It is nice
to have that awareness so that when it does happen, if and when it does happen, you don't
have such a big shock factor and you have a better understanding of how to deal with
it. Yeah, I agree for sure. Yeah, it is, again,
it is very rare. It is just astonishing that it even has a name. Yeah, right. That is what
I was saying. I was like, I don't think I've ever heard of this. But it is true what they
say though. As long as it has a name, then you know you are not alone. Yeah. Exactly.
That is actually a really good quote. I have never heard that before. Oh, that is what I
would have to tell myself about my orientation. I am someone so much to the point where someone
else recognizes that I am someone by calling it something. Yeah, awesome. That is a really
good way to look at it for sure. All right, well, that is it. Well, thanks.
That was a good topic. Again, never heard of that. I love educating myself on other things
so to where God forbid if I am in a situation later in life, I can maybe recognize that
if I see it happening as opposed to not educating myself and not knowing. So thank you. Yeah,
absolutely. And on that note, I'm going to go watch Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Oh
my gosh, great. Okay, well, you guys be looking forward to that three-parter coming out. We
are most likely going to do this other room recording as well for that. So we're going
to have three-part episode coming out. I'm not going to tell you who it is, but that
will be over the next three weeks and we will see you guys then. Yeah. All right. Ready?
All right. I don't know. Let's see how this works out. Okay, can we start it? One, two,
three. Love you. Bye. When I think about the latest trends, I think Spencers. Spencers
has been a mall must visit since its first store opened in 1963. From then, Spencers
has always stocked the most unique and buzzworthy products, including but not limited to their
wide range of Lotto lamps, their body jewelry cases, and of course, their infamous Wallet
Wall. And don't forget about their 18 and up section dedicated to sexual health. Did
I mention their humanitarian work? Spencers has been partnered with the ACLU for years
in an effort to protect individual rights as well as other nonprofits such as cancer.
With over 670 locations in the US, Spencers is the hottest place for trends even after
75 years. Click the link in the show notes to receive an exclusive offer today. Spencers,
life's a party and we're making it fun.