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Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Goelle.

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And I'm Kenna. And we sound a little weird.

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We sound a little weird because we are testing out, recording in two separate rooms. You know,

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we are trying to be adult women here and eventually we will have to move out. So I think, you know,

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in practice of that or looking forward to that, we're kind of looking towards, yeah, like,

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trying some stuff out. So I might sound a little funky. Kenna has the original setup with her.

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So she probably sounds great. I probably sound like a robot. I might sound a little weird.

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Maybe just a little bit. Yeah. And see, we're gonna probably interrupt each other a lot because

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we do have a touch of a lag. But I do have the original setup. I just have a different like

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closet. So my echo, I don't know if it's there. I don't think it's there. But it's definitely

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different. I think it's, yeah, it's kind of funny too because we're so used to recording in front

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of each other that we can see each other's body language. So we know when one's about to speak

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or something as well. Right. So this is the first time we're actually using the sweet, very sweet

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gift from Louis. Louis sent us a microphone because he loves it so much. So he sent us a little bit

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of a secondary setup. And thanks, Lou. Yeah, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Anything

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to help propel the podcast forward. Yeah, I can't wait for him to buy me a drink later because

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he's in town. So all right, with that, would you like to give everyone our handles? Sure, if you

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are new here, you can follow us anywhere on social media at diagnosing a killer with the exception

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definitely not least, we have a great Patreon community. We have four tiers on that Patreon.

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Tier one is going to get ad free mental breakdowns every week. Tears two, three and four will get

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ad free both episodes or every episode that comes out. And here's three and four will get an

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couple minutes to sign up. And we have about almost 12, I think episodes, the next one's coming

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out soon for those bonus.

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Thank you. Oh, you know, what's so funny is that at the beginning, we forgot to say this is the

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mentee breakie. I just thought it was a diagnosis.

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It's the mentee breakie.

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Yeah, I just said welcome back to diagnosing a killer. But this is the mentee breakie for everyone

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that doesn't know. Monday cases are actually not cases. In fact, we usually talk about

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disorders or experiments or specific types of people or interesting cases, things like people

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that get acquitted or, you know, interesting stuff like that. So that's usually our Mondays.

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And then on Thursdays will be our regularly scheduled cases.

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Definitely. And the AC just kicked on in my room. If anyone heard that, it's gonna be there for a

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little while.

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So I feel like it's so quiet in here, but it's just not the usual setup. So it's kind of funny.

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Exactly.

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Alrighty, so with that, today we are going to be talking about cap-gra disorder or cap-gra delusion

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or cap-gra syndrome.

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I feel like I've heard the term before, but I don't I couldn't tell you off the top of my head

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what it is. It is also known by the French name, l'allusion des suézi.

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Whoa, look at that accent.

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I know, right?

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That was perfect.

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I had to spell it phonetically.

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I love that.

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So this also translates to the illusion of lookalikes or doppelgangers. So Joseph Capra

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was a French psychiatrist who co-coined the term in a paper after studying a woman who

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claimed to have a condition in which she believed that her husband was actually replaced by

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another person or being.

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Okay.

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She was nicknamed Madame Macabre. Isn't that interesting?

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That is interesting.

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So cap-gra disorder is a very rare condition. It is not currently recognized by the DSM-5

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and it is more so classified as an unspecified delusional disorder.

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Okay. That's what I was thinking when you said she had the delusion thinking that he

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was someone else or maybe replaced by someone else. That reminds me of one of those schizotypal

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delusional, you know, the things that they trick your brain, the delusions of, you know,

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like delusions of grandeur or delusions of yada yada. It would be one of those. That's

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what I was thinking of.

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Correct. Yeah. With the paranoia as well.

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Yes.

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So although originally believed to be a psychiatric disorder similar to schizophrenia, at the

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time cap-gra disorder was assumed to be linked to hysteria because why not? Let's go girls.

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Of course.

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And it was predominantly seen in female patients around the time. So that's probably why they

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came to this conclusion, which is not totally correct.

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Yeah. That's interesting too. I feel like right now, sorry, there's a lot of patients

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now that are diagnosed with schizophrenia spectrum disorder, but I feel like it's pretty male-dominated

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now that diagnosis.

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Yeah. Yeah. With cap-gra though, for whatever reason, it is predominantly in females. It's

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also predominantly in black people as well. And I'm not entirely sure why, but it's also,

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there's also we'll get into the comorbidities as well.

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So yeah. And it could be definitely a genetic lineage thing.

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Yes. So for the research into cap-gra disorder in the 1980s, actually linked the syndrome

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with patients who were also diagnosed with things like dementia or Alzheimer's.

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Okay.

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So up to 80% of cases of cap-gra disorder are people who have experienced neurodegenerative

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conditions. Oftentimes someone with Parkinson's or epilepsy, people who have had stroke or

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brain injury or even other mental disorders such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

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Hmm.

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So yeah, it's definitely, I mean, you would think that you see that now there's commercials,

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right? About people that have dementia or Alzheimer's and there's like an aggression

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there.

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Yeah.

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And it's because they're so frustrated. They don't trust the people that are around

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them to take care of them as well.

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That's got to be scary.

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It does. It has to be really scary.

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Symptoms of cap-gra disorder are that the patient is in disbelief that a loved one is

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the person whom they're presenting themselves to be. But this can also stretch not just

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to loved ones, but to distrusting acquaintances, pets, and even inanimate objects.

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What?

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Yeah. Like I was wondering if that meant, this sounds so, I don't know, maybe I'll have

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to do more of a look-see on that. But you know, like if you think that maybe your lamp

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is bugged.

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Okay. That makes a little more sense.

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Yeah. I don't think it's necessarily that you think that your refrigerator is your husband

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or anything.

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That's what I was thinking. That's like, dang, that could be anything.

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These emotions felt by the patient might come and go, especially in dementia or Alzheimer

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patients. In some cases, people suffering from cap-grau disorder may become aggressive

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or violent in an effort to defend themselves from the imposter, which again, is really

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scary.

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That is really scary. But again, it reminds me a lot of someone that's on the schizophrenic

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spectrum. Like you could have those delusions and you could think that maybe your mother

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has been replaced by an alien or a CIA agent or something. You know, it sounds very similar

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to that type of delusion.

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Yeah. This disorder is not to be confused with imposter syndrome, however. And for those

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of you who don't know, imposter syndrome is defined by psychology today as saying, quote,

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people who struggle with imposter syndrome believe that they are undeserving of their

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accomplishments and the high esteem in which they are in fact generally held. They feel

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that they aren't as competent or intelligent as others might think and soon enough, people

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will discover the truth about them. Those with imposter syndrome, which is not an official

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diagnosis, are often well accomplished and they may hold a high office or numerous academic

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degrees and quote.

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Are you going to call me out like that?

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I was too nervous.

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I was like, oh, I called you outright when you said it.

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So in contrast, cap-gross syndrome is diagnosed by a series of physical and mental tests,

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including in-depth imaging of the brain by MRI or EEG. Do you know what those stand for?

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MRI is mirror radiology innovations. No, it's not. No, I mean, I know EEG is the heart,

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right? And then MRI is like the whole body.

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Well, I think they're both brain, but yeah.

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Oh, that was cool.

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Because you can isolate MRI. It's okay. I just, I didn't look up to see what the acronym

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was representing. I just figured you watched the much-grays anatomy.

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I can look it up.

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Okay. Oh, got it. Okay. Magnetic resonance imaging. I was kind of close.

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Okay. Yeah.

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And you said EEG?

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EEG, yeah.

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EEG.

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Not EKG. I think EEG.

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Yeah. EKG is the heart. EEG is electro-electron-synphilography. It's like one long word. I don't

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know how to say it.

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There it is, folks.

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Often it is found that capgrawl disorder is caused by various lesions or markings along

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the brain's frontal lobe or right hemisphere, which damages the central nervous system.

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That makes sense.

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With this damage, it is theorized that the brain may not be able to cognitively recognize

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someone else's face. Further complicating this, the brain then creates an emotional

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response that is not in alliance with the patient's normal response to maybe a loved

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one. Although these are professional guesses, there is no one cause or confirmation that

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this is exactly the reason why capgrawl develops. Essentially, there are no facial recognition

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in some of these cases of capgrawl. People aren't able to look at a person and see that

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familiar face that they're used to.

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That's so interesting because that's something that I've read about before. People are designed,

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their brains are designed to recognize faces, of course, familiar faces, but also create

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faces out of something that may not be a face, like an inanimate object, like you said.

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I'm not alone here. I know I'm not. But if you're driving behind a car and you see

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their two-tail light and then they have a little dent on the bottom and it looks like

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two eyes and a little smile or something, your brain is not made to recognize that,

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but that's part of the human mind. I've read, it's like, yeah, you're supposed to see faces,

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which is why it's so easy for people to hallucinate faces when they're doing hallucinogenic drugs

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or just hallucinating in general due to a mental disorder.

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It's interesting to me that it's almost the opposite.

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Yeah, I think that we're trained to realize what's familiar and what's not familiar because

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that's where we know we're safe. I can't imagine what it must feel like to sit next to someone

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that let's say you're married to for a decade or two and to look over and suddenly you don't

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recognize that person, how terrifying that must be.

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Yeah, that's going to be really scary.

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No wonder, like I said, when people tend to get aggressive or violent, they're trying

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to defend themselves because they feel like they're in danger.

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Mm-hmm.

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Oh, it's heartbreaking, really.

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Yeah, it's really scary.

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There are many treatment options in order to treat underlying conditions or cor-morbid

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conditions such as schizophrenia disorders or dementia. Some anti-psychotic medications

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can be prescribed, but unfortunately, when treating someone with cap-grau, it can often

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be difficult to regulate medication given the poor lack of understanding of one's condition.

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Yeah, for sure.

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If you think that, again, that example that I just gave about the husband, right, if he's

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trying to feed you your medication but you don't trust him, you're going to take it?

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Of course not.

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Oh, we aren't.

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Right?

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God.

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Is it the red bull or the blue one?

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But that makes sense as well when you say it's kind of compared to people with Alzheimer's

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or dementia. That's another thing too. It's like, I don't know you. I'm not going to take

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this medication.

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Yeah.

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Or wait for my husband to come back. He'll give me the medication and then that is their

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husband or something?

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Yeah. Yeah, and it's especially got to be frustrating to go in and out of it.

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Yeah.

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One of the most famous cases of cap-grau disorder was the case of Tony Rosato. Tony Rosato

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was an Italian-Canadian actor who was really well known for his participation on the live

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skit show Saturday Night Live and would often rub elbows with the likes of Martin Short and

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Dan Akroy. He was also known for his voice acting and animated TV shows such as The Busy

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World of Richard Scary, Super Mario World and various other video games. Tony married

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his wife Leah in 2003 and the couple would soon have a daughter. However, Tony began

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experiencing some mental health issues and soon would often become angry. He insisted

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that his wife and his daughter had been replaced by imposters and after he had become violent

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on one occasion, Leah filed for separation.

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Oh no. I mean, what is she going to do though? She's like, okay, I need to protect myself

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and my child and she probably has no understanding of this disorder, but that's got to be so

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scary on both of their ends.

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Especially the fact that he's a prominent person too. I can't imagine how scared she

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must be to want to support her husband and also out of respect for him keep some of his

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issues between them, you know, but then how alone you must feel.

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Yeah, that's got to be really hard.

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Leah would also file harassment charges and Tony would be taken in for psychiatric evaluations.

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Although Tony would be found guilty of harassment, he would not serve jail time as it was not

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Leah's wish. Her wish was that he would get help. So Tony was then sentenced to stay in

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a medical facility, mental facility, excuse me, for two years. After 19 months, Tony was

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released. He was regulated on medication and the family had a second chance at life again.

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Tony and Leah would raise their daughter together. Leah said around this time quote,

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I think he's even better than when I first met him. It's incredible. When we spend our

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time together, I'm just constantly amazed at how healthy he is. He's similar to when

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we first met. I was falling in love when I was falling in love with him, except it's

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better end quote.

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It's really excuse me sweet.

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Yeah, it is sweet. It's like a success story, you know, as well.

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Yeah. The family would stay connected for the next several years, but ultimately the

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couple would decide to divorce in 2010. Tony Rosado would pass away in 2017 to an unrelated

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medical condition, a heart attack at 62. So yeah, it's kind of like a better sweet story.

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Yeah, for sure. I think that when did you say the disorder was coined?

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Oh, 1930s.

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Oh, okay. So it's not super, super old, but I mean, it's within the last, I mean, 100

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years, but still kind of new. I know in terms of maybe what they know about it. And you

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know, you said that they don't have a definitive reasoning why it happens and other things

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like that. But I wonder if it would be beneficial to be able to do something similar to like

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a CTE situation where they can inspect the brain like postmortem. I wonder, and obviously

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that's not the case with him, but other people, you know, that are experiencing that disorder

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or the person that has like POA after that person dies, like maybe they could donate,

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you know, that organ and see if they can find like a better understanding of it just based

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on like a post-op autopsy.

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Yeah, I think besides the lesions that they find regularly with cases like this, and I

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would say regularly because I mean, it's just such a rare disorder. I really don't feel

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like there's many opportunities to study it. So again, like with the lesions and stuff

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like that that they found on the brain, I really do believe, however, that it is more

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linked to other disorders. And that's, you know, initially the situation that's happening

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and then the capra is a symptom of that.

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Yeah, so it's rare for it to be diagnosed as like a standalone disorder.

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Yeah, so again, there's not very many opportunities to research it. I mean, same thing with CTE,

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you know, the traumatic brain injuries and stuff like that with contact sports. We rarely

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get an opportunity to look at it, but when we do see it, it's pretty definitive that

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that's what that is, you know?

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Yeah.

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There's just no way of proving it because the only way you can is postmortem.

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Right, right.

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The family of a loved one who is experiencing these symptoms may be overwhelmed. It is important

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to remember that this is a disorder and it does not mean that your loved one loves you

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any less. They cannot control how they are feeling, so it is important to meet your loved

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one with patience and compassion. When struggling to identify with someone experiencing capra,

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dementia or Alzheimer's, it is important to seek out personal and family therapy. This

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can help the family and other loved ones of the patient understand the perspective of

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someone experiencing these symptoms in order to ultimately help the patient through this

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difficult time. If symptoms continue and the patient does become violent or they begin

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to self-harm, it is paramount to seek professional treatment and this may even lead up to hospitalization.

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And always, if you have an emergency, call 9-1-1-9-9-9 or your local emergency services.

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Yeah, absolutely. That can be a very scary situation, especially since it is so rare,

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like you were saying, but it is nice to be aware of the fact that that can happen, especially

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if you have somebody that you are dealing with on a daily basis that has either Alzheimer's

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or dementia or one of these other disorders that this can become a symptom of. It is nice

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to have that awareness so that when it does happen, if and when it does happen, you don't

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have such a big shock factor and you have a better understanding of how to deal with

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it. Yeah, I agree for sure. Yeah, it is, again,

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it is very rare. It is just astonishing that it even has a name. Yeah, right. That is what

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I was saying. I was like, I don't think I've ever heard of this. But it is true what they

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say though. As long as it has a name, then you know you are not alone. Yeah. Exactly.

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That is actually a really good quote. I have never heard that before. Oh, that is what I

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would have to tell myself about my orientation. I am someone so much to the point where someone

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else recognizes that I am someone by calling it something. Yeah, awesome. That is a really

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good way to look at it for sure. All right, well, that is it. Well, thanks.

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That was a good topic. Again, never heard of that. I love educating myself on other things

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so to where God forbid if I am in a situation later in life, I can maybe recognize that

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if I see it happening as opposed to not educating myself and not knowing. So thank you. Yeah,

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absolutely. And on that note, I'm going to go watch Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Oh

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my gosh, great. Okay, well, you guys be looking forward to that three-parter coming out. We

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are most likely going to do this other room recording as well for that. So we're going

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to have three-part episode coming out. I'm not going to tell you who it is, but that

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will be over the next three weeks and we will see you guys then. Yeah. All right. Ready?

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All right. I don't know. Let's see how this works out. Okay, can we start it? One, two,

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three. Love you. Bye. When I think about the latest trends, I think Spencers. Spencers

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has been a mall must visit since its first store opened in 1963. From then, Spencers

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wide range of Lotto lamps, their body jewelry cases, and of course, their infamous Wallet

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Wall. And don't forget about their 18 and up section dedicated to sexual health. Did

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I mention their humanitarian work? Spencers has been partnered with the ACLU for years

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in an effort to protect individual rights as well as other nonprofits such as cancer.

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With over 670 locations in the US, Spencers is the hottest place for trends even after

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75 years. Click the link in the show notes to receive an exclusive offer today. Spencers,

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