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Hello!

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Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Kenna.

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I'm Qua.

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Why'd you pause?

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I was thinking, was it back in the day that it was like, hello, hello?

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Now I feel like we overlap.

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We always, I mean, I don't know, we talk over each other all the time.

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Hello!

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We hope that everyone is having a fabulous week and thank you guys for your continuous support on social media.

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This episode is a finna be a doozy, so do you want to give everyone our social media handles before we get into it?

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Sure, you can catch us on social media anywhere at Diagnosing a Killer, other than ex formerly known as Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.

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We also have a Cash App, Venmo Paypal, if you want to support us monetarily.

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We also have a Patreon, our tier two and three members get an added bonus case every month towards the end of the month.

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And our tier one Patreon members also get ad-free episodes, all of our tiers do.

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Yes.

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I think that's all we have. I don't know if I can wait much longer to give you this case, so I think we should just get into it.

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Well, let's talk about something new that we're going to try.

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Yeah, definitely. So we have decided in order for the reactions to truly be super authentic, if you're new here, we don't tell each other who we're doing before we sit down.

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It's very, like, right here and now is when you're going to find out who it is.

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However, we've noticed that when we do the content warnings in the beginning, it might give some things away for the person sitting in front of us.

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Obviously, with the listeners, it's kind of hard not to give a content warning in the beginning,

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but we are now going to be presenting the entire case and then simply recording the content warning at the end as to not give anything away in the story.

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To each other.

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It won't sound different to you guys, but we now are going to be truly reacting because we don't even know what's in the content warning.

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So true.

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Yeah, the Joel Michael Guide Junior episode I had given my content warning,

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and there was a little bit of anxiety when it came to the family pet, Jake,

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and kind of like, but you didn't say in the content warning there was anything with animals.

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So I'm going to assume the dog's okay.

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So we were kind of talking about that and we're like, well, for added suspense for each other and a little bit, I guess, like more of an authentic reaction.

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We don't give it away. So we don't give it away to each other.

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And then yeah, so again, it won't sound differently to you guys, but just keep that in mind that now we truly do not know what's coming.

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Yeah, except for the person's name.

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Yeah, so we're going to say that, of course.

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All right. Well, forgive me.

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My allergies are really, really bad.

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Oh, and mom's cooking some sort of peppers and my eyes are watering.

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Yeah, I feel like I want to choke.

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My nose is going to run a lot because with all the spiciness in the air, my sinuses.

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Oh my gosh, I have all the tissues standing by.

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There we go.

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Okay, let's get into it.

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You might know who this person is.

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Surprisingly, Casey knew who he was and Casey's not a big true crime guy, but it's also a no.

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It's not John Wilkes.

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Not J.W. Me. No.

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Like he's homies.

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Yeah, like we're friends.

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This is also like kind of like a historical case as well.

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So that might explain why Casey knows the story.

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This is a history guy.

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No, I just said guy.

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Oh, okay. Cleopatra.

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So, no.

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Today, we are going to be talking about one Alfred Packer.

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Do you know who he is?

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No.

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Oh, you're convincing.

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Okay, content warning.

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This episode contains depictions of cannibalism, grotesque detail of consumption of human flesh, and poor treatment of deceased people.

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If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

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Remember, your mental health is very important and we love you.

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Love you. Bye.

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Alfred Griner Packer was born on January 21st, 1842, in an unincorporated area of Alginie County, Pennsylvania.

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His middle name is Griner.

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Griner. I think it's a, I think it's maybe a...

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Last name. That's a middle name now.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like his mom's last name and then his dad's last name.

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I see.

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He would be one of three children born to parents James Packer and Esther Griner.

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So, since Alfred was born a long time ago, there are differing accounts of most details of his life up to and even including his name and date of birth.

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What?

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So, other sources I saw stated that instead of January 21st, his birthday was actually November 21st of the same year, and that his real name is actually Alfred rather than Alfred.

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That's okay.

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So, it's almost like he might have changed his name later in life to Alfred instead of Alfred, but we're gonna call him Alfred because that's the majority here that I was looking at.

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Yeah. Well, a lot of things back then were written. Like it was all written documentation because nothing, I mean, typing was expensive, you know, if you could afford it.

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Yeah.

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Or if you knew how.

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Or if you knew how exactly to spell. And so a lot of it's like reading. And so it's like, is it Alfred, Alfred, Al...

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But it's Alfred with an, not Alford, Alfred.

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Alfred.

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Yeah.

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So this sounds like somebody didn't write it down correctly.

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Exactly.

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This is in the history books, folks.

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Right.

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So obviously there is not going to be a lot known about his childhood, but by the early 1850s, Alfred's father had moved the family to LaGrange County, Indiana, where he would pick up work as a cabinet maker.

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Alfred was also known to have suffered from epilepsy from a young age, and he had less than a great relationship with his parents.

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Those two things aren't like combined, but it was like his parents kind of essentially this is bad, but felt like he was kind of a lot because of the epilepsy.

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Epilepsy.

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And he did have fits as well, which we'll get more into.

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This being the case, Alfred would pick up and leave the family and his late teens when he would move to Minnesota and gain work as a shoemaker.

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Minnesota.

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At this point in time, epilepsy was thought to be linked to insanity.

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So this obviously gave Alfred a negative outlook on his mental health from a very young age.

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Yeah.

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They were like, oh, he has male hysteria.

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He has the faeva.

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He's got the faeva.

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No, actually, though, it's like, oh, you're seizing.

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That's fucking, you're insane.

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Yeah.

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Essentially is what they thought, you know, because like, what else are you going to fucking think?

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It's the 1850s.

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Yeah, you don't know it's medical.

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You think it's mental.

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Exactly.

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So on his own for a while now, Alfred would enlist with two different Union regiments during the Civil War.

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The Civil War happened from 1861 to 1865, if you're not familiar.

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So Alfred would have been in his late teens slash early twenties around this point.

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He would enlist on April 22, 1862 to be exact, and would be assigned first to company F of the 16th Infantry Regiment.

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Good job.

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Thank you.

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Infantry is funny to me because it's like the younger guys apparently is what that means.

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I mean, I don't know.

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Unfortunately, Alfred would be honorably discharged after only eight months in the service due to seizures that would occur once every other day, if not more frequently.

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They're like, this guy's insane.

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Get him out of here.

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Get him out of here because we can't deal with insane lunatics.

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Well, he's also like probably not helping.

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He's like, he's essentially like, it's a curse.

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It's just a fucking problem to them.

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Yeah, it's just occurring too regularly for him to fully be able to function.

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Yeah, which sucks because I can't even imagine, first of all, dealing with that in general, even in today's world, but dealing with that and having people call you crazy.

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And you're like, no, I'm literally like saying like I know I am.

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I just sometimes pass out and seize.

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I don't know why and I can't fix it because everyone thinks I'm crazy.

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Yeah, and especially for someone who wants to enlist and actually serve their country and be a part of that.

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And your body is fighting against you.

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How frustrating that must be.

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For sure.

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And it might have been even caused by the rapid gunfire, like flashing lights and all the, you know, whatever, you know, in the military.

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So I said he enlisted twice on June 25th, 1863.

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Alfred would then enlist in the 8th Iowa Calvary Regiment in Ottawa, Iowa.

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Excuse me.

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I'm glad he didn't give it up then.

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What?

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Give up the military, like, altogether.

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Oh, yeah.

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Enlisted.

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Unfortunately, like I said, his condition would not be treated at all and he would be discharged yet again from here on April 22nd, 1864.

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Again, that's got to be so fucking frustrating because you're like, yeah.

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He's like, I'm trying.

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I'm really trying here and then to feel like outcasted because of something you can't help.

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For sure.

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Following his discharge from the military, Alfred would decide to head west and would pick up numerous different jobs around this time.

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Alfred would pick up work as a hunter, a hard rock miner, a trapper, a teamster guide, et cetera.

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I don't know what any of those are except for a hunter.

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Well, I know hard rock miners.

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A trapper's like, like bear traps and stuff, like a trapper.

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Oh, there you go.

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Like a game trapper.

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These are just old-timey, like, careers.

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He was a cabler.

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He was a candle maker.

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He was a watch engineer.

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Watch engineer.

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Why does he have watches back then?

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I guess they had watches back then.

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It's so funny.

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Unfortunately, all of these jobs would eventually come to an end and it goes back to the epilepsy.

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Although Alfred's medical problems were the main reason behind him losing employment, he was also known to have quite a terrible attitude.

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On top of this, when he found work as a guide, he was widely criticized for not being particularly suited for the role, and he was known for being prone to lose his way a lot.

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So he's like, I'm a guy and I'll guide you here and then he gets the whole group lost.

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He can't read a map.

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Yes.

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He just was seemingly, like, not good at, like, any job.

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Yeah, some people just aren't born with an innate sense of direction.

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I love that movie.

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An innate sense of direction.

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So funny.

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Okay, yes.

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But by the year 1872, Alfred found himself working as a miner in Georgetown, Colorado.

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While here, he would become injured when a sledgehammer came down on his hand, causing him to lose part of his left pinky and index finger.

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This guy can't catch a break.

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He really can't.

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And the sledgehammer might have, like, fallen because he was having, like, an epileptic attack or something.

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Epileptic.

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Epileptic attack.

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You know.

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That's hard to say.

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It is.

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Words.

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Alfred would continue as a miner, but he would land in Utah in 1873, being a miner, a rock miner.

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He wasn't a coal miner.

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He was, like, a, like, a jewel miner.

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Like a jewel, yeah.

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A gem miner.

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Yes.

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Around this time, word would get around of a huge gold strike in Colorado, causing many men to quit their jobs to travel to the area in search of this gold.

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According to a local newspaper at the time, there were, quote, marvelous tales of enormous fortunes to be had for the mere asking.

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Oh.

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Marvelous tales.

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That sounds to me.

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Marvelous.

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In November of 1873, 19 men would leave the Bingham Canyon mines near Salt Lake City, with the intention of heading towards the fields of Breckenridge, Colorado.

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These men were mostly strangers to one another, and they would essentially all band together and head to Colorado as a group, a man called Bob McGrew leading the pack.

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Another member of the original group of men named George Tracy would claim that he and the men would encounter a man by the name of Alfred Packer about 25 miles into their trek.

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Hmm.

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Upon seeing the men, Alfred inquired about where they were headed, and when he heard that the group had set out for the San Juan Mountains, he asked if he could join them.

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He's a guide.

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He's the guide.

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I'm the guide after all.

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Like, I'm a professional guide.

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Yes.

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I don't get paid or anything, but I'm a professional guide.

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A professional of getting lost.

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Yeah, for sure.

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Noticing almost immediately that Alfred was without adequate supplies or money, the men were initially reluctant to bring him along.

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Yeah, of course, he's like, I can be your guide, I'm just going to need food, shelter, water, and protection.

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So yeah, that's funny you say that because Alfred actually claimed that he was both a prospector and a guide, and that he in fact knew the San Juan territory very well.

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I know I like the back of my hand.

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Yes.

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Hearing this, the men decided that he may be an asset to their travels and allowed him to come along.

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With this knowledge, Alfred was able to gain a sort of notoriety amongst the group, who had little to no knowledge about Colorado's geography.

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Unfortunately, neither did Alfred.

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He's like, oh look, over there, there's a bear that's mounted, mountain lion, they're native, I think, I'm not sure.

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Alfred would quickly gain the attention of the men and other than positive ways as they shortly began to realize that he may not be as equipped to handle the circumstances as they thought.

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He's like, oh my god, I'm dying, I'm so cold, I'm hungry, I'm starving.

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I'm seizing.

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I thought you were an adventurer.

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He's like, yeah, I'm an adventurer, but also I'm hungry.

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We have to stop once every two days for me to have a...

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It's terrible, I'm not trying to make fun of it, I'm really not, it's terrible.

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But they're like, oh my god, this guy kind of doesn't know where he's going and he has this medical problem.

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00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,000
Well, in their minds, he's insane.

227
00:13:54,000 --> 00:14:06,000
The men began to realize that Alfred had vastly overstated his qualifications in order to join the crew and potentially even lied altogether about his knowledge of the area.

228
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,000
They were like, mmm.

229
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,000
It's like when Joey on Friends lies about being able to speak French on his resume and they challenge him to speak French or something.

230
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,000
I don't watch Friends.

231
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,000
It's like that though.

232
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,000
Yeah, that's true.

233
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,000
You lie on something on your resume and then they ask for the receipts and you're like shit.

234
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,000
Alfred ate all the fucking Pop Tarts, you know.

235
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:31,000
So unfortunately, there was really no way to kick Alfred out of the group of men because they were all traveling together.

236
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000
It's not like they're not going to be like, hey, you stay here and we're all going to walk this way.

237
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,000
They're all lost anyway.

238
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,000
Yeah.

239
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,000
Just keep him around and if he dies, just eat his body first.

240
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:52,000
As the days went on, Alfred was reported as being greedy with food and supply rations, lazy and unwilling to cooperate with the quote leaders of the expedition expeditions.

241
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,000
Excuse me.

242
00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:00,000
A man called Frank Miller was also reported to have been in multiple quarrels with Alfred during the time of their travels.

243
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,000
Another man by the name of Preston Nutter would later comment on Alfred's behavior.

244
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,000
Quote.

245
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,000
He was sulky, obstinate and quarrelsome.

246
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:15,000
He was a petty thief willing to take things that did not belong to him, whether of any value or not.

247
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000
That's like a great early 1900s insult if I've ever heard of it.

248
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,000
Yeah.

249
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,000
He was lazy.

250
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,000
He was obstinate.

251
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,000
Petty thief.

252
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,000
He was a petty scandal.

253
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,000
Now they're like British all of a sudden.

254
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,000
I mean they kind of were.

255
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,000
Well, yeah.

256
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:49,000
I guess. So not only did Alfred's behavior turn a lot of men in this group against him, but he would again continue having seizures during this time, causing the group a lot of stress and unfortunately resentment towards him.

257
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:56,000
In one specific mentioned episode, the men were all sitting around a campfire that they had made for the night while they stopped.

258
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000
He just came by and hogged all the heat.

259
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,000
Yeah.

260
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,000
Oh, this guy has soaking up all the heat from this fire.

261
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,000
He actually would suffer a seizure and unfortunately he was very close to the fire.

262
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,000
Oh shit.

263
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:17,000
He would ultimately fall into the flames and at the same time he would knock a hot coffee pot over as well.

264
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:25,000
Not only would Alfred get burned by the fire, but the coffee would splash into his face causing extensive burns.

265
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,000
It's not funny.

266
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,000
It's not funny.

267
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,000
I feel bad.

268
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,000
I feel bad that I said what I said.

269
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,000
I know.

270
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,000
I was thinking that was like, oh, you're gonna feel bad.

271
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,000
I just imagined that.

272
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,000
I'm sitting around me like, he's using the heat.

273
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,000
I'm the one that made the fire.

274
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,000
I made the fire.

275
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,000
He's just using it.

276
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000
Like it's from fiber.

277
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:54,000
So although there were many obstacles that the group had tackled, they managed to remain together for a few months into the trip, even gaining another member, bringing the group total up to 21 men.

278
00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:04,000
Due to the fact that it was the middle of winter, the group was obviously bombarded with treacherous environments, with snow beating down on them most days and nights.

279
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:16,000
Going into the new year, the food was beginning to become scarce and the group of men would eventually be forced to eat some of their livestock's food in order to survive, like the food that they had brought for their horses and stuff.

280
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:23,000
When this food ran out, they would begin butchering their own animals that were previously carrying the supplies that they had.

281
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,000
All the men had at this point for traveling.

282
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:31,000
The Spanish Trail was a compass and no extra information from the man that claimed to know the route they were traveling.

283
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:32,000
I'd be so pissed.

284
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,000
Me too.

285
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,000
I'd be halfway there and be like, God damn it, we have another fucking three months with this motherfucker.

286
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:37,000
Yeah.

287
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,000
My question is, why are they picking up people?

288
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:47,000
I mean, I guess they might have picked up the 21st person before they started having hardships, but it's kind of like...

289
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,000
That's true.

290
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:54,000
But also, it's like there is a group of men and you're there by yourself, like what are they going to run away from you?

291
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,000
You know what I mean?

292
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,000
You can see this giant group of men, it's kind of just like easy to go with them.

293
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,000
That's true.

294
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,000
I don't know.

295
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:05,000
I mean, I guess they are thinking that they're going to hit, like make it big with the gold rush.

296
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,000
Yeah.

297
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000
But at the same time, it's like, I mean, I guess in the winter, it's got to be hard to hunt even if they could.

298
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,000
That's true.

299
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,000
Unfortunately, with the blistering snow covering their route, the group would ultimately become very lost.

300
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:26,000
On January 21st, 1874, the group of men would stumble upon the encampment of a man by the name of Chief O'Rea,

301
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,000
known as, quote, the white man's friend, end quote.

302
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,000
That's either Alfred's birthday or not, by the way.

303
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,000
Oh yeah.

304
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:42,000
This camp was located near Montrose, Colorado, within the Uncunggah Gray Valley, and was home to many.

305
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:49,000
While the men were unsure that it was safe to approach the camp, they were at the point where it was desperate to them to receive help,

306
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,000
and they reluctantly approached the tribe.

307
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:59,000
Upon approaching the tribe, it was noted that the presence of the men alerted some of the members and caused them to flee in fear.

308
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:07,000
Not only were they of a different appearance, but they reportedly looked very disheveled, and it was not certain that they weren't there for a sinister reason,

309
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,000
like to rob people or something.

310
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,000
To rob them, or maybe they were sick.

311
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,000
You know what I mean?

312
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:18,000
And at this point, natives had already learned that they were susceptible to diseases as well.

313
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000
Yeah, definitely.

314
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:29,000
As Chief Alrae greeted them with welcome arms, immediately supplying them with food, and would even offer them lodging for the night, or as long as they needed.

315
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:39,000
Chief Alrae would go even further to offer them a place to stay until the spring, as he knew they were likely to encounter more dangerous weather and experiences throughout the cold winter.

316
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,000
Wow.

317
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:50,000
He would explain to them that even the people in his tribe would not attempt the same journey during the winter months, and that if they decided to take the chance, it would most certainly end up in death for most, if not all of them.

318
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,000
What a guy though.

319
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,000
Right? So nice.

320
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,000
You didn't have to do that.

321
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,000
No, he could have just been like, in order to protect my people, get the fuck out.

322
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,000
Yeah, exactly.

323
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:09,000
Chief Alrae would offer the men to stay with the tribe until it warmed up, and even promised to share all that he and his tribe members had with them.

324
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:19,000
Although it was very kind for Chief Alrae to offer the men a place to stay and wait out the cold, it quickly became apparent that not all of the men were interested in doing that.

325
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:28,000
The town of Breckenridge was being essentially invaded by miners from all over that were looking to get their hands on the gold that was circling the news.

326
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,000
After only a few weeks with the tribe, the group of men would seriously discuss leaving.

327
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:40,000
However, at this point, it was the beginning of February, and the snow had been continually falling since their arrival at the camp.

328
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:49,000
This being the case, it would be pretty difficult for not only the group of men to leave, but also to haul the remainder of their supplies with them.

329
00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:00,000
The men who were with the remainder of their horses would not be able to continue on, but 11 men from the group that did not have extra cargo with them decided to go ahead with their journey.

330
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:10,000
Understanding there was no changing their minds, Chief Alrae would give the men food for their journey and gave them the best directions he knew in order for the men to reach Breckenridge safely.

331
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Which is still so nice, you don't have to do that.

332
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:18,000
It is, but it's like, I like that he's like, well I'm not going to convince you to stay, but...

333
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:25,000
Yeah, here's some food, hopefully you make it. What is he going to do? Hold him hostage? You can't really do that.

334
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:30,000
I feel like this is only going to end poorly for these poor sales. 11 men.

335
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:38,000
The men planned to make a stop at the Los Pinos Indian Agency, the closest outpost to the camp, before going to Breckenridge.

336
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:48,000
However, their original plan on how to get there was quickly shot down by Alfred, who would explain that just going through the mountains would be more direct and faster.

337
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,000
Yeah, because he's done so well up until this point.

338
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,000
That's far.

339
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,000
But they're totally going to instill a lot of trust into him.

340
00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:03,000
So five out of these 11 men were adamant that they go by the route that Chief Alrae gave them as he clearly knew the land better than Alfred.

341
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,000
Alfred insisted that he knew this part of the land well and that his way was much quicker.

342
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:16,000
The five men on his side would be convinced to follow him while the other five men would follow the original route given by Chief Alrae.

343
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,000
I was going to, like, okay, like, I, it's like a horror movie. Why do you all keep splitting up? This is ridiculous.

344
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,000
Yeah, don't, everyone split up.

345
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,000
Everybody stay together.

346
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:32,000
So the original route, the one that Chief Alrae gave the men, would have had them mostly following along the Gunnison River.

347
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,000
And again, the other was going through the mountains.

348
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:42,000
So the river group would leave first with Alfred and his men staying behind a few more days.

349
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:48,000
Of these men that left, a man called Oliver D. Lautzenheiser was part of the group.

350
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:57,000
He and the other four men would follow along the river, but with the freezing temperatures and dwindling supplies, they figured they were not long for their journey.

351
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:08,000
They would run out of food well before reaching their destination and found themselves frighteningly close to starvation when they came across some cowhands from the government cattle camp near Gunnison, Colorado.

352
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,000
Cowhands? Okay, like a ranch hand.

353
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000
It's like some cowhands.

354
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,000
They have cowhands, aren't those hooves?

355
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,000
These cowhands would offer the men food and shelter to which they would accept.

356
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,000
So the original five men would ultimately end up staying at this camp until April.

357
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,000
So they were like, okay, they were right. We should have waited out the winter and now we're going to wait here instead.

358
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,000
Okay, well good. And that's the five?

359
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,000
The original five that took Chief Alrae's route.

360
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:46,000
Meanwhile, on February 9th, Alfred and the other five men, so six of them total, would leave for the same agency, but on a different route.

361
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:57,000
In this group of men, Alfred, Shannon Wilson Bell, James Humphrey, Frank Butcher Miller, George California Noon, and Israel Swan.

362
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000
That's not their middle name, that's their nickname.

363
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,000
It's a Butcher in California.

364
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:07,000
So we all know at this point that most of the men did not trust that Alfred knew the land like he had claimed.

365
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:18,000
However, it's thought that this being the case, the men had simply just grown tired of him acting like he knew everything, and they were possibly just planning on abandoning him after they took off.

366
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,000
Yeah.

367
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,000
Like, okay, we'll let him get us as far as he knows, and then if he becomes a problem, we'll just abandon him.

368
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:29,000
Yeah. Or I mean, I'm sure he was pretty convincing, like, oh, this is a shorter way if we go through the mountains.

369
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,000
They probably were thinking, well, that is a shorter way.

370
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,000
So we'll just go this way, not because Alfred's saying to.

371
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000
Yeah.

372
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000
Because we're gonna.

373
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,000
Because we want to.

374
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:45,000
The man responsible for both groups of men, Bob McGrew, would initially lead the second group along the route given by Chief Aure.

375
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:53,000
He would take them as far as he could along the river, but when it became difficult for his horse, he would drop the men, his supplies, and return to the camp.

376
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,000
So he like led them originally as far as he could go, and then once he left them, the men started up the mountain.

377
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,000
Okay.

378
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:10,000
The journey was along 75 miles, and after McGrew left the men, again, they would continue along the river before Alfred would lead them along a path higher up in the mountains.

379
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Again, he urged the men that it would be faster, and the amount of food they had would only last them for about two weeks, which would be less than needed with the other route.

380
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,000
So he's also saying, like, even if we go that original route, we don't have enough food.

381
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,000
Yeah.

382
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,000
So we have to go this way, essentially.

383
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,000
Either way, yeah.

384
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:37,000
The men would reluctantly go into the mountains with two rifles, one pistol, a couple of knives, a hatchet, and minimal ammunition between the six of them.

385
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:45,000
A few months later, on April 16, 1874, Alfred Packer would emerge from the woods alone.

386
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,000
Oh my God!

387
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:57,000
He would stumble across a frozen lake to the Los Pinos Indian Agency, the one they originally set out to reach.

388
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,000
He had rags attached to his feet, seemingly to protect them from the snow.

389
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:09,000
The men of the agency were sitting around the mess hall area eating breakfast when the door flung open.

390
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,000
Alfred would immediately begin begging for food and shelter, to which the men supplied him with.

391
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:21,000
On his person, Alfred had a rifle, a knife, a steel coffee pot, and a satchel.

392
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,000
And a string of teeth around his neck.

393
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,000
Like, that's so bad.

394
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,000
The men would quickly get Alfred inside, sit him down at the table, and provide him with food.

395
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,000
He would eat so fast that it would cause him to throw up.

396
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:41,000
He told the men that his digestion had been altered due to going so many days without eating anything.

397
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:47,000
The men would continue to supply him with things, including whiskey, which Alfred gladly took a few shots of.

398
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,000
Oh no, no food. The whiskey's fine.

399
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,000
I'll take the whiskey.

400
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,000
Just leave that bottle there.

401
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,000
Blep!

402
00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:02,000
Feeling pretty good from the alcohol, Alfred would relay to the men the events leading up to them arriving at Chief Alrae's camp.

403
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,000
He told these men that he had been hired by five men to guide them to Breckenridge from there,

404
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:15,000
and stated that during their journey, he had become snow-blind and was lagging behind the remainder of his party.

405
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:21,000
He said that he felt he was becoming a burden to them, and then claimed that a member of the party, Israel Swan,

406
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:26,000
had supplied him with the rifle before the rest of the men abandoned him.

407
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:35,000
He would go further to claim that he was forced to survive on his own and make his way out of the mountains with little ammunition and essentially no supplies.

408
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:42,000
He stated that in order to survive, he ate tree roots and rose buds, as there was really no animals around because of the snow, right?

409
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,000
Yeah.

410
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,000
As the men listened, Alfred's story seemed to be a little bit off.

411
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:57,000
For one, he did look disheveled, but he didn't look as malnourished as someone would being lost in the wilderness for the better part of two months.

412
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,000
On top of this, the men noticed that his face was bloated, but his overall physique was really thin.

413
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,000
They called it like almost skeletal.

414
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,000
Hmm.

415
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Alfred would also claim that he had no money, and because of this, he would offer to sell his rifle to Major Downer, the agency's justice of the peace, for ten dollars, which would be about 260 today.

416
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,000
Oh, that's quite a pretty penny.

417
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:29,000
Alfred would take advantage of the kindness of the men at the agency for a little while, but after ten days, he would express interest in returning home to Pennsylvania.

418
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:36,000
He would leave the agency and head to the nearby town of Sewatch to buy supplies for his journey.

419
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,000
Once here, Alfred would meet a man by the name of Larry Dolan, who owned a saloon.

420
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,000
A saloon?

421
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:53,000
The two would engage in conversation, and Alfred would quickly change his intentions for his travels when Larry offered him to stay in a room at the saloon.

422
00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:04,000
Larry would later state that Alfred spent around $100, which would be about 2500 today, during his stay, and even offered to lend him $300 for something else on top of this.

423
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,000
What?

424
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,000
So he only has ten dollars, because he sold the rifle, he has no money.

425
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,000
He only has ten dollars, but now how did he get this extra four hundred dollars now that he's spending?

426
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,000
He said that he was broke.

427
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,000
Yes.

428
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:23,000
Alfred allegedly also spent another $78 in a general store owned by one Otto Mears.

429
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:30,000
It was also later claimed that Alfred had several different wallets in his possession.

430
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,000
It's kind of funky.

431
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,000
He...

432
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,000
He might have been a collector.

433
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,000
He was known to drink heavily around this time, and he would frequently talk about his journey with the men once drunk.

434
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,000
Hmm.

435
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,000
His stories would often change on how he came to be separated from the other men.

436
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:53,000
Having many different conversations with people around town, word quickly spread about his inconsistent story.

437
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,000
Oh, interesting.

438
00:29:54,000 --> 00:30:04,000
People around town would begin talking, and questions began to raise about the truth of Alfred's journey, specifically how he came to be separated from his traveling group.

439
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,000
Mm-hmm.

440
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:13,000
On top of this, he seemed to have an almost endless cash flow, and he was partying a lot, although his group was seemingly missing.

441
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,000
Yeah.

442
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,000
So it's like, why aren't you broken up about it?

443
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:25,000
Meanwhile, Preston Nutter from the original party and whom stayed at Chief Al Ray's camp while the others continued on, arrived in Sawatch.

444
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:35,000
He would find himself, along with two other members of the original group, at Larry Dolan's Saloon, aptly named Dolan's Saloon.

445
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:42,000
Once there, they were surprised to find that Alfred was there, alone, and seemingly having a grand old time.

446
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:48,000
Preston asked Alfred where the rest of his party was, to which Alfred claimed that he had, quote,

447
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,000
got his feet wet and frozen, and the group had set up a camp when a big winter storm came in.

448
00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:00,000
He said he started a fire to warm up while the other men went out to look for food.

449
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:08,000
Before leaving, Alfred said that Israel Swan left him with a rifle, and the men just didn't come back after they said they were going to, like, get food.

450
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,000
I mean, clearly he's lying, because we all know Alfred, he can't start a fire.

451
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,000
Yeah, for sure.

452
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,000
He probably had to rely on someone else to do it.

453
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,000
That's all that warmth.

454
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Second of all, this whole time, people have been told that there's five missing men in the woods somewhere, and nobody's doing anything.

455
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Well, like, that's strange.

456
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,000
I understand, like, that people traveled that way.

457
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:35,000
But still, at the same time, they left him because they were all in agreement that they were going to meet up there.

458
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000
So, at this point, the men are missing, what do you think?

459
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,000
Or maybe he's telling them, well, hey, I don't know, they probably are already in fucking Breckenridge.

460
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,000
They got the jump on you.

461
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,000
That was their intended destination.

462
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,000
The stopping point, of course.

463
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,000
That's true.

464
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Yeah, and this is actually the town over from the agency.

465
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,000
Okay.

466
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,000
So, yeah, it's not really on their route, so I don't know.

467
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,000
Yeah.

468
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,000
They probably just didn't care.

469
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:05,000
So, Alfred continued, stating that after the men left him by the fire, he figured that they had abandoned him, so he would just go on on his own.

470
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:14,000
He said he had no idea where the group ended up following this, and again, he was forced to survive on Rosebuds and the occasional squirrel.

471
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:24,000
Preston thought that this story seemed odd, as Alfred looked rather well-fed and not particularly upset about potentially losing five men that were his responsibility, because he's the guide.

472
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,000
I'm the guide.

473
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,000
He's just the best guide ever.

474
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,000
You just never see him again.

475
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,000
I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map.

476
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Oh my gosh.

477
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,000
Actually, though.

478
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:43,000
On top of this, Preston thought that it would have been kind of silly of these men to leave the one person who claimed to know the route they were taking, because no one else knew the way, because remember, he was like, it's faster this way.

479
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,000
Just put Alfred in a backpack and then carry him around.

480
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,000
He's your guide.

481
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,000
Backpack, backpack, backpack.

482
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,000
It's just gonna keep going around to Dora.

483
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,000
That's like, we're not swiping.

484
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:03,000
Furthermore, Preston thought it was odd that Israel Swan would give Alfred his rifle, leaving the remaining four men with only one gun between them.

485
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,000
Yeah.

486
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,000
Or one rifle.

487
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:11,000
Finally, he noted that Alfred had a skinning knife on him that he knew belonged to Frank Miller.

488
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,000
Ooh.

489
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:21,000
When Preston questioned Alfred about how he came to have this knife, Alfred claimed that Frank had stuck it in a tree while they were at the camp and had left it behind.

490
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,000
Like, he stuck it in a tree, like, fucking around, or to keep it, they left.

491
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,000
Again, never came back, so he's like, I'm not fucking leaving this here.

492
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,000
He takes it.

493
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,000
Yeah.

494
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,000
He walks like 20 paces and then he's like, oh, it's too far.

495
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,000
I'm not going back for my knife.

496
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,000
Right.

497
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000
Something I need to survive.

498
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,000
Exactly.

499
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:41,000
From the beginning of talking with Alfred, Preston had suspicions about the truth behind his claims.

500
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,000
He quickly became convinced that something sinister had actually taken place.

501
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:54,000
Preston would almost immediately become confrontational against Alfred, and the two engaged in arguments of sorts regarding the rest of the men.

502
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,000
Nothing serious would come of this conversation, and the two men would separate.

503
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Alfred quickly making plans to move on the next day.

504
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,000
He's like, okay, I'm just going to get the fuck out of here, right?

505
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,000
Yeah.

506
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,000
Oh, by the way, I have plans.

507
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,000
Right.

508
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,000
I'm going back to Pennsylvania.

509
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Meanwhile, back at the Los Pinos Indian Agency, two men of the original five men party who took the route told by Chief Al Ray would arrive at their destination, and they would be joined by the remaining three men shortly after.

510
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:34,000
The men would be introduced to the head of the agency, General Charles Adams, who would greet them and relate to them that he had already met a man whom they most likely knew, Alfred Packer.

511
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:42,000
He told the group that during his conversation with Alfred, it had become clear that the men he was traveling with had not arrived with him.

512
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:53,000
All of these men would quickly explain to Charles that they knew the five men that Alfred was traveling with, and they were adamant about the fact that they would have not abandoned one of their own, no matter who it was.

513
00:34:53,000 --> 00:35:02,000
All of our D. Lautzenheiser would tell the general that Alfred was not to be trusted, and that he was sure that something bad had happened in the mountains.

514
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:13,000
He also noted that the rifle held by Alfred belonged to an elderly man that he was traveling with, and that a pipe that he had left behind at the agency had also belonged to another man from the group.

515
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,000
He has like one thing for me to these men.

516
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,000
Yeah, they're all trophies.

517
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:25,000
The men would convince General Adams to send authorities to swatch immediately and detain Alfred for questioning.

518
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:35,000
However, they were clear that the authorities should not disclose the reason behind them talking to Alfred, and suggested that they pretend that they were recruiting him for a search party of the missing men.

519
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,000
Okay.

520
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,000
So now they're going to look for him.

521
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,000
Yeah.

522
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:46,000
The agency officer happened to arrive at the perfect time around the time that the argument between Preston and Alfred was coming to an end.

523
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:54,000
The officer told Alfred that he had been sent by the agency to enlist him as a guide for the search party since he knew the area so well.

524
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,000
He feeds right into his ego.

525
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,000
That's amazing.

526
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:05,000
Alfred was initially reluctant to go, but he decided to agree when he realized he didn't have a good argument to not go.

527
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,000
No, no, I got plans, you know, or whatever.

528
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,000
Like he has to pretend like he wants to find them.

529
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000
That he gives a shit.

530
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:19,000
Alfred mounted his newly purchased horse and followed the officer, but not before Preston had a chance to talk with the officer.

531
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:28,000
Upon arriving back at the agency, Alfred would come face to face with General Adams and the five other men whom he saw leave for the route suggested by Chief Alrae.

532
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Interesting.

533
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:36,000
The officer would join the group of men and relate to Alfred, what transpired through his conversation with Preston Nutter.

534
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:45,000
Preston had told the officer about Alfred's lavish lifestyle, how he had recently purchased a lot of new things and was constantly drunk and partying.

535
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:55,000
He had also gained access to items that he knew belonged to the men he journeyed with and how Preston was certain that Alfred was penniless before they set out to the mountains.

536
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,000
He's got like a blinged out horse.

537
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,000
Right.

538
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,000
Yeah, he has like a bridle that's all nice.

539
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,000
Yeah, pit my ride.

540
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,000
He's got a fish tank.

541
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,000
Pit my ride.

542
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:16,000
Oliver Loutzenheiser would demand an explanation from Alfred, who would repeat the same story as he first told the men at the agency.

543
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,000
Alfred seemed to be shocked at the fact that the men had not been located or turned up on their own.

544
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,000
What?

545
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,000
They're not here?

546
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:24,000
Without a guide.

547
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,000
Don't say.

548
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:37,000
Oliver would laugh in Alfred's face, stating that he should tell the group where his newfound wealth had come from, to which Alfred stated that he had received a loan from a man in Soich.

549
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:45,000
General Adams said that if that was the truth, then Alfred shouldn't mind staying at the agency while the other officer went back to verify.

550
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,000
They just walked back and forth to these towns.

551
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,000
Yeah, they're like literally 10 steps away or something.

552
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:56,000
Alfred reluctantly agreed and the officer was immediately sent back to confirm.

553
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,000
After a little while, the officer returned with the opposite of corroborating news.

554
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:08,000
He said that he was told that Alfred arrived in Soich with plenty of cash and no one in town had seemed to lend him any money at all.

555
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,000
This is also back when you could talk to like everyone in town over a matter of like hours.

556
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,000
Yeah, every person is there.

557
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:20,000
There's like one innkeeper, one bartender, one sheriff, one...

558
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:33,000
After receiving this news, General Adams would create a task force of sorts consisting of himself, five miners, Alfred and the agency officers to get down to the bottom of things.

559
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:40,000
Almost as soon as they began, two tribesmen would rush into the agency holding dried strips of human flesh.

560
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,000
They would describe as quote, white man's meat and quote.

561
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,000
Oh my God.

562
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:53,000
Like at this same moment, they're about to go like, oh, let's go find these guys and these people come running, they're like, look what we just fucking found.

563
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,000
This sounds like a play.

564
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,000
I know.

565
00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:01,000
They stated that they had found this on a hill near the agency while they were hunting.

566
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:06,000
Alfred, hearing this, fell to the floor and broke down.

567
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:15,000
Once he was able to be picked up and calmed down, he would profusely begin begging for forgiveness and swore to make a full confession.

568
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,000
Ew.

569
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,000
I thought he was gonna, like he's like, no, my friends, I barely knew you.

570
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,000
Yeah, you would think.

571
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:34,000
After a long silence, Alfred turned to General Adams and stated quote, it would not be the first time that people had been obliged to eat each other when they were hungry and quote.

572
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,000
Ew.

573
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,000
Shut this laptop. I'm out of here. I'm flipping this table.

574
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,000
Fucking gone.

575
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,000
Yeah.

576
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,000
It's just funny that not funny, but you said earlier, you were like, well, the first person that died, you know, remember?

577
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,000
Yeah.

578
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,000
That's not funny.

579
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,000
It's like a dumber party.

580
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:59,000
Also, I was gonna leave this out of the beginning, not to spoil things for you, but his nickname is the Colorado cannibal.

581
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,000
If I say that in the beginning, it's gonna ruin it.

582
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,000
Oh my God.

583
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,000
Okay, I'm gonna shut my mouth right now.

584
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:15,000
Cause like, I, okay, no, I don't want it. I think I, I think I know something, but I don't know if I know it, so I don't want to spoil it for anyone.

585
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,000
I love like the first three words of all these different thoughts that are coming in.

586
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,000
I just think of the words.

587
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,000
Ugh.

588
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:42,000
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589
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591
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:13,000
So yes, it is now known that Alfred is essentially suggesting that cannibalism might have occurred here.

592
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,000
He's strongly suggesting.

593
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,000
Strips of human flesh.

594
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:26,000
Immediately, Herman Lautner, the agency clerk, came into the conversation and began transcribing everything that was being said.

595
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,000
Small cookie.

596
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:34,000
Alfred claimed that the men had left the camp with what they thought was sufficient food for the journey through the mountains.

597
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:42,000
The journey they thought was to take a full 14 days, but before they knew it, the provisions they brought with them had dwindled to little.

598
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,000
I'm sure Alfred ate all of it.

599
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,000
Yeah, he probably did.

600
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,000
He did. He ate all the granola bars and he didn't share all the crumbs because he was just hungry.

601
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,000
Exactly.

602
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:58,000
He's like, oh, I'll have this food. What is it? It's a family guy where they have all this food for the apocalypse and Peter eats all of it in one night.

603
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,000
That was essentially it.

604
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,000
It's not that he was starving. It's just that he just wasn't full.

605
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,000
So he decided to just sneak a granola bar here and there.

606
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,000
It's awful.

607
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:16,000
Alfred said that the men survived for days on roots dug from the ground, pine gum, rose buds, and the occasional small game animal.

608
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:27,000
However, Alfred claimed after a few days of no wildlife activity due to the extreme weather, the men started to eye each other in a way which he had stated was unsettling.

609
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,000
It's like the cartoons when you imagine someone's a hamburger or a ham.

610
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,000
Exactly.

611
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:43,000
Alfred claimed that a few days after this, he left the camp in order to gather dry firewood and returned to find the four men surrounding the murdered body of Israel Swan.

612
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,000
He claimed they murdered him?

613
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,000
Yeah, he's like, I was gone.

614
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,000
And I came back and Israel's dead.

615
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,000
And he was just, yeah.

616
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:56,000
He stated that Israel had been struck in the head with a hatchet and killed instantly.

617
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:08,000
Alfred claimed that the other four men had begun to butcher Israel's body to which he was hesitant about at first, but reluctantly joined in due to fear that he would also be killed if he didn't.

618
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,000
Yeah, I don't want to be the odd man out, right?

619
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,000
Even though I've been the odd man out this whole time.

620
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:20,000
He also claimed that several thousand dollars were found on Israel's body, which the men then split between them.

621
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:27,000
Alfred stated that the men then consumed the parts of Israel's body that they all agreed upon and then moved on.

622
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,000
Alfred packing up Israel's rifle in the process.

623
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:36,000
Yeah, they just were like, oh, like, you were reluctant to participate in this, but we're going to go ahead and gift you his rifle.

624
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,000
Yeah, exactly.

625
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:45,000
Within two days, however, the men were out of consumable meat and they were still unable to find animals to hunt.

626
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:55,000
At this point, Alfred claims he, Shannon Bell, James Humphrey, and George Noon decided in secret that Frank Miller would be the next to go.

627
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,000
He's the butcher?

628
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,000
Yes.

629
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:06,000
Alfred confessed that Frank was quite a stocky man and the reason he was chosen was for his amount of flesh, which is really horrible.

630
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,000
Sounds like a butcher.

631
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,000
Yeah, a stocky butcher, that makes sense.

632
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:16,000
Frank would quickly after this be killed with a hatchet blow to the head while he was kneeling to pick up wood for a fire.

633
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:22,000
He would then be butchered and consumed similarly to Israel.

634
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:29,000
Following this, Alfred would take Frank's knife and Frank's share of money would be distributed amongst the remaining men.

635
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:36,000
Again, this is all from Alfred's story. This is the transcription, essentially, of the first time he's relayed this story.

636
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,000
Yeah.

637
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:43,000
Alfred would continue, stating that as the men went on, they were barely able to see in front of them.

638
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:51,000
Reaching the same situation as before, they found themselves out of, quote, food and without animals in their presence.

639
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:58,000
Eventually, James and George would also be killed and consumed, leaving just Shannon and Alfred by themselves.

640
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:05,000
You would think that some of these people would be like, well, I'm seeing a pattern forming here.

641
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:12,000
I'm gonna go this way and just look for food, quote, and just...

642
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:19,000
Or it's like, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be ugly, but it's like, why didn't they all turn against Alfred?

643
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,000
They clearly didn't care for him. He was killed on ball.

644
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,000
If this was really the case, why didn't they all turn against him and kill him?

645
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,000
Because I'm the guide. I was like, oh, dude, I forgot.

646
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,000
It's the real world, I'm the guide.

647
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:36,000
Alfred stated that he and Shannon swore on Almighty God not to eat each other.

648
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,000
However, they had each had a rifle and a couple of thousands of dollars on them.

649
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:46,000
This being the case, they figured this would be enough to get them through the remainder of their trip together.

650
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,000
The two men came up with a plan that when they arrived at their destination,

651
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:55,000
they would say that the other three men had perished from the elements and were buried with dignity.

652
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:02,000
They vowed never to speak of the cannibalism, as they felt that no one would ever believe that it was, quote, necessary.

653
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,000
After traveling for another few days and only having so much as a small rabbit between them,

654
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,000
the men were exhausted and chose to set up camp for the night next to a large lake.

655
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,000
Alfred said that they were there for another few days,

656
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,000
and around this time, Shannon would do something out of the ordinary.

657
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:26,000
The men were laid down for the night when Alfred stated that Shannon shut up out of his blanket

658
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,000
and screamed that he could not take it anymore.

659
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:34,000
He told Alfred that one of them was going to have to die so that the other one could eat.

660
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,000
Alfred claimed that Shannon grabbed the rifle and sprinted towards Alfred,

661
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:44,000
seemingly wanting to hit him over the head with it, suggesting they might have run out of ammo at this point.

662
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:51,000
Alfred stated that he was able to dodge the blow and would simultaneously strike Shannon in the head with the hatchet.

663
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:57,000
He then butchered Shannon similarly to the other men and consumed him similarly as well.

664
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Alfred claimed to have portioned out the remainder of the food for himself

665
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:08,000
and packed his things for the journey ahead, also taking the money off of Shannon's person for himself.

666
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,000
Might as well. He's not using it.

667
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,000
However, Alfred, not really knowing the area, was unsure about how long he had to go

668
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,000
or if he even had enough supplies to maintain himself.

669
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:27,000
After a while, he said he came across a hill and saw the Los Pinos Indian Agency that he entered a few weeks earlier.

670
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,000
He said he then threw the remaining strips of flesh away,

671
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:35,000
knowing that they would most likely be found if he walked into the agency with them.

672
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:41,000
He also figured an animal would eat it, so he didn't think anything of throwing it right there.

673
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:47,000
Which is not funny, haha, but it's dumb because that's exactly where those hunters found it.

674
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,000
You know what I mean?

675
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:52,000
You were also looking for animals, which is interesting.

676
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:57,000
As much as Alfred tried to claim he ingested human flesh for survival,

677
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,000
he did also claim around this time that he had grown quite fond of it

678
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:06,000
and found the portion around the breast area to be especially delicious.

679
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,000
Eww.

680
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,000
And now I can't think of the word delicious anymore.

681
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,000
That's so disgusting.

682
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,000
Again, okay, I'm interested. Are we gonna know the truth?

683
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,000
So there's a lot of differing stories, but I'm gonna give you all of them.

684
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:27,000
We essentially know most of the truth, I will say, based on evidence and stuff.

685
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,000
We'll just have to keep going and then we'll discuss it later, I guess.

686
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,000
Okay.

687
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:36,000
So hearing all of this, Oliver, Loutz and Heizer became enraged,

688
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:42,000
but General Adams would calm him down, stating that they needed this detail in a confession to put Alfred away.

689
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,000
Yeah.

690
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:48,000
General Adams would immediately call for a conference among the five men and the agency officers

691
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,000
to determine what they should do moving forward.

692
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:57,000
It was decided after this conversation that a search party be assembled at once to find the men's remains.

693
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,000
After all, this is all circumstantial up until this point,

694
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,000
and they needed hard evidence to make sure that what Alfred was saying was the truth.

695
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,000
That's true. He could just be lying because he's, you know, he's crazy.

696
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,000
Because he's Christ.

697
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:15,000
The men from the original group of miners claimed that they did not believe one part of Alfred's story,

698
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,000
the part about Shannon attempting to attack Alfred when it was just the two of them left.

699
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:26,000
They all stated that Shannon was the kind of man who would lay down his life for another if he thought it was necessary.

700
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,000
And not the other way around.

701
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,000
Yeah.

702
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:36,000
General Adams asked the two men who found the human flesh if they knew of an area next to the lake that Alfred described.

703
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:42,000
They said that such a place did exist, but it was approximately 50 miles away across the hills.

704
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,000
What?

705
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:48,000
Well, it does make sense because Alfred's not claiming that he was like the next day at the agency.

706
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,000
You know, it was like, it could have been that far away because he was like,

707
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,000
I did the rest of my journey to get here.

708
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,000
Yeah.

709
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,000
He didn't say like, and then I just turned up here, you know.

710
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,000
But what I'm saying is like, that's not even the halfway point.

711
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:01,000
You know what I'm saying?

712
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,000
That's true because it was 75 miles.

713
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,000
It's 75 miles and they were supposed to have at least two weeks worth of food.

714
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,000
That's true.

715
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,000
Apparently.

716
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,000
Interesting little sleuth over here.

717
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:20,000
The search party was led by agency clerk Herman Lautner and also consisted of the five miners from Utah,

718
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,000
a few agency officers, and Alfred acting as a guide.

719
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:25,000
Oh my God.

720
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,000
Why?

721
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,000
Tell me he doesn't have a hatchet right now.

722
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,000
Well, he just, he just came from there, I guess.

723
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,000
So realistically, he probably does know the way back.

724
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,000
It's like, oh yeah, I'm the guide.

725
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,000
Just go ahead and pick up that firewood over there.

726
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,000
Oh, mm-hmm.

727
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,000
Yeah.

728
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,000
Those men better watch their backs.

729
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:46,000
After two weeks of travel, the party was reaching the area of the Lake Fork of the Gunnison River.

730
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,000
Of Lake Fork, excuse me, I said of the Lake Fork.

731
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:55,000
However, at this point, Alfred claimed that he was lost and that the area didn't look like what he remembered.

732
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,000
Well, that checks.

733
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,000
So, yeah.

734
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:04,000
Oliver called Alfred a liar and a murderer and insisted that he be hanged right then and there for his crimes.

735
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:12,000
Again, this is like old timey, like, you liar, thief, scoundrel.

736
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:19,000
A rogue scoundrel came into the village and got hands on my horse and buggy.

737
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,000
My horse and buggy.

738
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,000
You'd be hard to get at the end.

739
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,000
Oh my god.

740
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,000
Such a good TikTok.

741
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,000
Sorry.

742
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:38,000
This, of course, would not happen because of legal proceedings, but nothing would be found as well and the group would just head back to the Los Pinos Indian Agency.

743
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:51,000
However, along the trip back, Alfred was most likely considering his options and at one point, he would attempt to murder Herman Lautner with a large knife that he had concealed in his clothing.

744
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:57,000
Alfred would be caught in the act, restrained, and immediately arrested.

745
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,000
He just starts gnawing on his leg.

746
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,000
I need it.

747
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:11,000
The funny thing is that General Adams had been willing to believe Alfred, but the unprovoked attempt at Herman's life was enough to show Adams that Alfred was dangerous.

748
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:12,000
Yeah.

749
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:19,000
He would subsequently be transported back to Shawash, so watch, excuse me, and put in a jail outside the town for his own protection.

750
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,000
Bitch, let him get murdered.

751
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,000
Stoned.

752
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,000
Stoned him.

753
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,000
Let's just throw potatoes, put him in a stockade.

754
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,000
I'm sorry, not potatoes, just tomato.

755
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,000
Ow, just raw potatoes.

756
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,000
That would have hurt.

757
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,000
It would fucking hurt.

758
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:46,000
While Alfred was detained, he would retract what he told the men at the agency occurred, leading up to the men he traveled with losing their lives.

759
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:52,000
He was now claiming that all the men had encountered a strong blizzard along their way through the mountains.

760
00:52:52,000 --> 00:53:01,000
He said that the snow fell so heavily and persistently that they all became lost and were now unable to retrace their steps back to where they came from.

761
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,000
It's like this whole new story.

762
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,000
Yeah.

763
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,000
On top of this, he now claimed, supplies were dwindling and quickly ran out.

764
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:15,000
The group had also run out of matches and were forced to carry hot embers in a coffee pot as means to have light and fire.

765
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:21,000
He stated that days went by with no signs of animals and attempts at ice fishing ultimately failed.

766
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:31,000
Alfred now claimed that the group cooked and ate their shoes in an attempt to survive, and once their options ran out, they all agreed on a pact.

767
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:38,000
In this pact, the men agreed that if one of them were to die, they were okay with the others consuming their flesh in order to survive.

768
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,000
That makes a little more sense, honestly.

769
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,000
Yeah.

770
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:50,000
Alfred claimed that after days of hiking with no animals around, Israel swan ultimately became so fatigued that he could go no further.

771
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:56,000
The group would find an area next to a lake at this point and set up camp to rest for a while.

772
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:02,000
Alfred stated that a short while after this, Israel died of a combination of hunger and exposure.

773
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:08,000
Alfred wanted at this point to give a written confession to this claim.

774
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:21,000
Old man Swan died first and was eaten by the other five persons about 10 days out of camp. Four or five days afterwards, Humphreys died and was also eaten. He had about $133.

775
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,000
I found the pocketbook and took the money.

776
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:32,000
Sometime afterwards, while I was carrying wood, the butcher was killed, as the other two told me accidentally, and he was also eaten.

777
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:41,000
Belle shot California with Swan's gun and I killed Belle, shot him. I covered up the remains and took a large piece along.

778
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,000
Then traveled 14 days into the agency.

779
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:50,000
Belle wanted to kill me with his rifle, struck a tree, and broke his gun.

780
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:58,000
So like what? So it's like now he has this whole story leading up that all of the men, no it's okay that they were eaten because they were cool with it.

781
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,000
Yeah.

782
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:07,000
They killed Shannon, you know, and then I just took a large, and then now he's saying it took him 14 days after this point to get there.

783
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,000
How far under the journey were you?

784
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,000
Right.

785
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:11,000
Because you said the whole journey was supposed to take 14 days.

786
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,000
Yeah.

787
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:13,000
Weird.

788
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,000
No, I think that he probably methodically killed each and every one of them all at the same time.

789
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,000
Okay.

790
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:28,000
So later on, Alfred would give yet another amended version of his story in which he stated that the men endured almost 20 days into their journey in which the last 10 days they did not eat at all.

791
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:38,000
He then stated that James Humphrey had also died of exposure due to the cold and that George Noon was killed days later by Shannon Belle for the sole purpose of food.

792
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,000
Which is an Abe, but I get your story straight.

793
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,000
Right.

794
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:43,000
Like jeez.

795
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,000
Then it was down to just himself and Shannon.

796
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:53,000
He claimed now that he and Shannon agreed that they would stand together until the end, swearing not to kill or eat each other.

797
00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:03,000
In this part of the confession, Alfred said that days went by and Shannon could no longer take the hunger and attempted to kill Alfred, causing Alfred to shoot him in self-defense.

798
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:15,000
He would then confess to taking valuables of the deceased members of the group, claiming they no longer needed them, but made no specific statements about the items taken or the amount they added up to monetarily.

799
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,000
Well, he probably didn't keep track.

800
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,000
He just was spending it all.

801
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:25,000
With Alfred in custody and the search bringing nothing thus far, authorities would continue to search for a while.

802
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:30,000
Alfred in jail, awaiting, I guess, them finding something.

803
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:40,000
The following August of 1874, the initial crime scene was discovered by one John A. Randolph, an illustrator who worked for Harper's Weekly magazine.

804
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:49,000
He would come across the corpses of all five men, Shannon Bell, James Humphrey, Frank Miller, George Noon, and Israel Swan.

805
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,000
So clearly Shannon didn't leave that area.

806
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,000
He was like, oh, we were able to walk a little bit and then no.

807
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:01,000
He was saying that they were killed days apart too, so why were they in the same area and with the dead body of someone else the whole time?

808
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,000
Exactly.

809
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:09,000
The bodies of the men would be found at the foot of Slumgill in Pass, two miles southeast of Lake City, Colorado.

810
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:14,000
This spot of discovery was in a shady area by a lake.

811
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,000
Ooh, so he didn't lie about that.

812
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,000
He didn't lie about the lake.

813
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:24,000
The bodies lay above the lake fork of the Gunnison River, which is now known as Dead Man's Gulch.

814
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:31,000
This place matched the exact description of where Alfred originally claimed that only Shannon had met his fateful end.

815
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:39,000
Upon this discovery, it was noted that the place the men died was within walking distance of the nearby city of Lake Fork.

816
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:44,000
So just relatively close to civilization.

817
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,000
Yeah, like where they'd be fine.

818
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:51,000
Instead of leading the men there, Alfred claimed that he did not know that anything was around at the time.

819
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,000
Like he told the men, like, oh, I think we're lost.

820
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,000
But he's such a good guide.

821
00:57:55,000 --> 00:58:01,000
The bodies had been covered in snow, giving way for them to not be discovered for four months.

822
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:06,000
John Randolph would actually sketch the scene as found, and this image can be found online.

823
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,000
What?

824
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,000
It's black and white.

825
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,000
It's like, obviously it's a drawing, but yeah.

826
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,000
I want to look at it.

827
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,000
Well, don't, hold on.

828
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,000
Don't look it up yet, because you're going to give things away.

829
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:15,000
Oh.

830
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:22,000
The story of the discovery of the bodies would be covered two months later in October of 1874 via the newspaper.

831
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:29,000
The local coroner and authorities would create a task force, including 20 volunteers to examine the crime scene.

832
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:39,000
First responders at the time noted it had appeared that, quote, extreme violence and, quote, had been bestowed upon the men, excuse me.

833
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:49,000
Frank Miller's head was actually missing entirely from the campsite, and he and Israel Swan's corpses had been a little more than just scattered bones.

834
00:58:49,000 --> 00:59:00,000
The bodies of George Noon and James Humphrey were largely flayed, but it was known that they both received massive blows to the head, and their bodies had noticeably other broken bones.

835
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:04,000
So it's not like just like, oh, without a survival, I had to.

836
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:08,000
This is like, he murdered these people, like brutally.

837
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,000
Yes.

838
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:18,000
I was just going to say, yeah, essentially the way the corpses were discovered, it was clear that they were brutally murdered, torn apart, and not treated with grace at all in life or in death.

839
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,000
Which is awful.

840
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:27,000
Of course, the area and condition in which the bodies were found completely contradicted all of Alfred's statements.

841
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:35,000
The theory quickly became that Alfred killed all of the men before the supplies ran out in order to rob them of their weapons, money, etc.

842
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:43,000
Then, Alfred got snowed in, having to live on his own in a makeshift shelter for months and surviving off the flesh of his companions.

843
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:51,000
Preston Nutter would accompany authorities to the site of the bodies, and would identify the corpses as being those of the men he once knew in life.

844
00:59:51,000 --> 01:00:01,000
The remains of the men would subsequently be buried near the site of their deaths, and the search party would return to Alfred's jail cell to confront him, only to find him missing.

845
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:02,000
What?

846
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:13,000
If I wasn't clear earlier, Alfred was detained in a makeshift jail of sorts in order to protect him from other inmates, but also because authorities wanted to keep a close eye on him.

847
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:14,000
So he was essentially isolated.

848
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,000
Well, clearly they did their job very well.

849
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:17,000
Right.

850
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,000
Unfortunately, this didn't work, and he would be gone upon the discovery of the remains.

851
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,000
I mean, he had time, right?

852
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,000
They didn't find them for months.

853
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,000
Yeah, there was nobody there watching him?

854
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,000
Nope.

855
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:32,000
And there wasn't sufficient security because of how long it took to keep Alfred under wraps.

856
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:44,000
On top of this, it was noted that So watch County authorities were not thrilled about taxpayer dollars that were going to keeping him in jail, considering there was no real evidence to keep him behind bars.

857
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:50,000
And Alfred would allegedly be given tools that actually helped him escape by like someone within.

858
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:51,000
Great.

859
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,000
Yeah.

860
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:59,000
And even more, a lot of the people of So watch were not entirely convinced that Alfred was guilty of anything, especially not of murder.

861
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,000
They were like, he's just weird on these rich.

862
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:02,000
Yes.

863
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:10,000
Although there were people that did think that he was a murderer and a cannibal, and his life would constantly be threatened by townspeople due to this.

864
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:15,000
All of these things would later play into the reason why he was essentially assisted in his escape.

865
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:22,000
I don't know if they're like, let him loose and the townspeople will take care of him or they're like, oh, he really didn't do anything, but you know, either way.

866
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:29,000
However, if someone did help him, Alfred would never confess who helped him or if anybody did.

867
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:39,000
Theories among the townspeople would run rampant at this point with some people believing that he had simply overstated his qualifications of being a guide that knew the mountains in Colorado.

868
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:48,000
Others would think that it was premeditated and he knew all along that he was going to lead the men in his group to peril and rob them of their possessions and murder them all along.

869
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:52,000
Yeah, I wonder if he had any hand of picking who was actually going to go with him.

870
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:53,000
Right.

871
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,000
I think it was just the people that were willing to like believe that he knew the route.

872
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:57,000
Yeah.

873
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:03,000
The cannibalism part of his charges, although shocking, were not really the issue of people in the area.

874
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:12,000
People around the time were familiar with other groups of people in the past that were forced to do this and, you know, resort to this fate.

875
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:20,000
Furthermore, there would be many groups in the coming years that would have to resort to this as well, considering, again, the times and conditions.

876
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:32,000
Unfortunately, during this time in human existence, it was not super uncommon for groups of people that were traveling by foot or horse to end up having to cannibalize some members in order to arrive safely.

877
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:34,000
Which is wild.

878
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:43,000
Additionally, cannibalism at this time was not illegal per se in the United States, unless one committed murder with a sole intent to commit cannibalism.

879
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:52,000
Unfortunately, not only this area of the states, but many others would see acts of necessary cannibalism in the next few years following this.

880
01:02:52,000 --> 01:03:03,000
On March 11, 1883, an outlarge Alfred would be discovered by one Jean-Frenchie Cabazon and Cheyenne Wyoming.

881
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:12,000
He was living under the alias of Jean Schwartz, which would also be the name of one of the original miners that was in the group.

882
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,000
So he just like stole someone else's name, like just pretended to be him.

883
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:17,000
I'm just that guy, yeah.

884
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:26,000
Jean Cabazon was actually a member of the original party himself and decided to stay put in the camp while the other members took off during the winter.

885
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:28,000
So he stayed till April.

886
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:34,000
And he would later safely make his way to their destination with Bog McGrew and Preston Nutter's party.

887
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:39,000
Jean would encounter Alfred by happenstance when Alfred approached him looking to buy some supplies.

888
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,000
He didn't even fucking remember him.

889
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,000
Or maybe he did remember him, but he was just like, what's up dude?

890
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,000
He's like, I'm Schwartz now.

891
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,000
Yeah, exactly.

892
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,000
He stole his identity.

893
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:55,000
Jean would immediately report Alfred to local authorities who would apprehend him and immediately call General Adams.

894
01:03:55,000 --> 01:04:04,000
Adams would subsequently be summoned to Cheyenne where he correctly identified Alfred's identity and accompanied him by train to Denver, Colorado.

895
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,000
It's also got to suck though back then because it was just eyewitness testimony.

896
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Right.

897
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,000
It's not like there's no form of documentation or identification whatsoever.

898
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,000
No fingerprint, no DNA testing, no nothing.

899
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:15,000
No photos.

900
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:19,000
Literally just a guy going on like, yeah, I've met you before, but you went by this name.

901
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,000
Yes.

902
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:21,000
And that's it.

903
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,000
And then you're like, is he telling the truth or not?

904
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:24,000
Yeah.

905
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:26,000
Am I being framed for murder right now?

906
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:27,000
That's so scary.

907
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:34,000
So once in Denver, Alfred would give his second confession signed on March 16th, 1883.

908
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:40,000
Alfred stated that his main reason for fleeing was out of fear of the town of Sewatch coming for him.

909
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:41,000
With potatoes.

910
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,000
Yeah, with potatoes in the sack.

911
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:54,000
Following this, Alfred was now claiming that the men did not die gradually and Shannon had actually been the one that killed everybody else before he had to kill Shannon to stop him.

912
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:56,000
You're already going to go to jail for the rest of your life.

913
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:57,000
Right, it's so annoying.

914
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,000
Well, probably not jail, let's be honest.

915
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,000
This is the late 1800s, but you know, you're already going to go down for it.

916
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:06,000
What does it matter if you confess?

917
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,000
Right, he's already fucked.

918
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:15,000
Alfred now claimed that Shannon told him to go scouting for any way out of the mountains and to find some food for the two of them.

919
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,000
Alfred told General Adams, quote,

920
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:27,000
I found the redheaded man, which is Shannon, who acted crazy in the morning sitting near the fire roasting a piece of meat, which he had cut off the leg of the German butcher.

921
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:32,000
The latter's body was lying the furthest off from the fire down the stream.

922
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,000
His skull was crushed in with the hatchet.

923
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,000
The other three were lying near the fire.

924
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,000
They were cut in the forehead with the hatchet.

925
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,000
Some had two or three cuts.

926
01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:45,000
I came within a rod of the fire when the man saw me.

927
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,000
He got up with his hatchet towards me when I shot him sideways through the belly.

928
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,000
He fell on his face.

929
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:53,000
The hatchet fell forwards.

930
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,000
I grabbed it and hit him on the top of the head and quote.

931
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:58,000
It's just funny the way they phrase things.

932
01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:59,000
That's what I'm saying.

933
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,000
If you said it in a British accent, they would be like,

934
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,000
I came within a rod's length of a fire.

935
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,000
I shot him in the belly.

936
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,000
Belly is hilarious for a grown-ass man to say.

937
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,000
The belly.

938
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:12,000
Oh, jeez.

939
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:13,000
Oh, no.

940
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:18,000
Alfred went on to further explain that in the moment of him shooting Shannon and going for the hatchet,

941
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:23,000
Alfred dropped his revolver in the deep, powdered snow and ultimately lost it.

942
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:28,000
He claimed he then made himself a makeshift shelter out of logs to fight the snow.

943
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:33,000
Then he said a huge storm set in and he was there for hours waiting it out.

944
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:41,000
Alfred now claimed that he found himself starving and he knew that he needed to eat something or risk dying himself.

945
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,000
He stated about this quote.

946
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:50,000
I went back to the fire, covered the men up and fetched to the camp the piece of meat that was near the fire.

947
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:54,000
I made a new fire near my camp and cooked the piece of meat and ate it.

948
01:06:54,000 --> 01:07:01,000
I tried to get away every day but could not, so I lived off the flesh of these men, the bigger part of 60 days, end quote.

949
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:08,000
So it was fucking 14 days, then it was 20 and now it's a whole fucking two months, which I guess it was two months, in reality.

950
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:16,000
But also it's like, in this confession, he's like, well, Shannon had cut that piece of meat and he was getting ready to eat it

951
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:20,000
and then he tried to kill me and I killed him and then I'm like, ooh, withering away to nothing.

952
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,000
So that meat was already cut, so I might as well just eat it.

953
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,000
I might as well just eat it because he already prepared it.

954
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:29,000
And then yeah, and then he's like, oh, after I ate it, then I had no choice but to continue to do that.

955
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,000
It's just, doesn't make sense.

956
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,000
And like, why wouldn't you, I mean, I understand that you feel like you're trapped.

957
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:39,000
Clearly, he was near another town and you're telling me he didn't go try to seek help?

958
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,000
Yeah, I don't think he wanted to.

959
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,000
I think that he, well, I don't know.

960
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:47,000
I don't know what his plan was, but he knew that, I feel like he knew that town was there.

961
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,000
I feel like he knew that the town was there and that's what I mean.

962
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:55,000
Like, I feel like if it was this, oh, it was in self-defense, like, I need to tell someone that.

963
01:07:55,000 --> 01:08:00,000
It was, instead of that, it was, well, I'm just gonna live here for a while

964
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,000
and then come up with a really great story.

965
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:03,000
Yeah.

966
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,000
And maybe the bodies will be decomposed by then or whatever it is.

967
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,000
Or he's like, oh, it's been long enough.

968
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,000
You know, no one's gonna care if they got, they went missing.

969
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,000
Like, clearly it's been long enough and I'm the sole survivor.

970
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:15,000
Oh my God, it's a miracle.

971
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,000
I made it out alive.

972
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:17,000
Exactly.

973
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:18,000
Yeah.

974
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:26,000
General Adams asked Alfred why he had not told this version of the story nine years earlier when he originally had the chance to confess.

975
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,000
Alfred responded to this quote, I was excited.

976
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:34,000
I wanted to say something and the story, as I told it, came first to my mind.

977
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,000
And I don't think he means excited, like, excited.

978
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,000
I think he means like, nervous.

979
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:39,000
Yeah.

980
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:43,000
I think that maybe he was a little excited when he talked about breast meat.

981
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,000
And so, that's a good point.

982
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,000
I mean, why would you say that if you didn't like it?

983
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,000
Especially delicious.

984
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,000
That doesn't make you edgy.

985
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,000
Yeah.

986
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:57,000
Like, oh, you're the cool guy that likes human breast meat.

987
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,000
Delicious.

988
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:13,000
Due to this statement, it was the agreement of the prosecution and a later trial that the only logical reason for Alfred to have attempted such a journey through the mountains was for the sole intention of leading the men into the wilderness to both rob and kill them.

989
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:14,000
Yes.

990
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:27,000
At the time of the trial, it was reported by the family of Israel Swan that he had left to go on this expedition with around $6,000, about $160,000 today in cash and gold.

991
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:28,000
Wow.

992
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:35,000
The family stated that he also had a very valuable Winchester rifle with him, which would give somebody else a strong motivation for murder.

993
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:41,000
And again, we have to remember that this was a different time and it was probably pretty rare for people to have really nice things like that.

994
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,000
It's true, yeah.

995
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:54,000
Israel was also the same-year-old age of 65 at this time, giving way for a 30-ish-year-old Alfred to think that it was an easy task to dispose of him.

996
01:09:54,000 --> 01:10:04,000
Considering the harsh terrain and the blistering cold, it's easy to assume that Alfred thought that it would make sense to everybody if Israel simply perished during the journey.

997
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:15,000
According to the Swan family, the other four members of the group may have been complicit in his murder and later be traded by Alfred or were murdered as well simply for being witnesses to this crime.

998
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:16,000
Yeah.

999
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:23,000
Something that seemed strange to them, however, was that Alfred was not found with any gold on him, just money.

1000
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:28,000
And I think that might have been because it was like, well, his family definitely knows that he had gold.

1001
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,000
This money could have come from anywhere.

1002
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:31,000
That's true.

1003
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,000
It could have been a really corroborating piece of evidence.

1004
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:35,000
Yeah, that's true.

1005
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:43,000
Or if he had gold on him, he might have to come up with another story as to how he obtained the gold if it wasn't proven that it was Israel's.

1006
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,000
It could have been like, oh, where'd you get that gold?

1007
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:50,000
It's like, oh, well, I made it to the mount and all here and I mined it.

1008
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,000
Then it would have to be like a whole other story.

1009
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:54,000
Right, right.

1010
01:10:54,000 --> 01:11:01,000
On April 6th, 1883, Alfred's trial would begin in Lake City, which is funny because it's the city that was right there.

1011
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:11,000
It was presumed that Israel Swan's death had occurred on or around March 1st, 1874, and it was also determined that the others appeared to be killed in their sleep.

1012
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:20,000
Among those who testified on the behalf of the prosecution, Otto Mears, Larry Dolan, Oliver D. Lautzenheiser, and Preston Nutter.

1013
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:28,000
After seven long days of testimonies and examinations, Alfred Packer would be found guilty of the premeditated murder of Israel Swan.

1014
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:29,000
Well, good.

1015
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:30,000
Should be premeditated.

1016
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:31,000
Right.

1017
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:41,000
According to a local newspaper, the presiding judge, M. B. Jerry, stated, quote, and please bear with me because this is a lot of like shorthand like slaying from this time.

1018
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,000
Okay.

1019
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:43,000
Quote.

1020
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:44,000
Are you gonna do the accent?

1021
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:45,000
I'm gonna try.

1022
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:46,000
Okay.

1023
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:50,000
Stand up, you voracious man, eatin' son of a bitch and receive your sentence.

1024
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,000
Sounds Irish.

1025
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,000
Man eatin' son of a bitch.

1026
01:11:53,000 --> 01:11:54,000
The judge said that?

1027
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:55,000
Yes.

1028
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:56,000
That's cool.

1029
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,000
I'm just gonna say it normally.

1030
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,000
It's like an old country croc accent.

1031
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,000
It's like you work at the fucking...

1032
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,000
Accidentally Irish.

1033
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,000
Like you work at the...what is that?

1034
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,000
County...what is that?

1035
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:08,000
Cracker Barrel.

1036
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:09,000
Oh.

1037
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:10,000
Like you work at a cracker barrel.

1038
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,000
Barrel.

1039
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:12,000
Okay.

1040
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,000
So, stand up, you voracious man, eatin' son of a bitch and receive your sentence.

1041
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:21,000
When you came to Hinsdow County, there were seven Democrats, but you, you ate five of them.

1042
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:22,000
God damn ya.

1043
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:30,000
I sentenced you to be hanged by the neck until you're dead, dead, dead, as a warning, agent, reduction, and democratic population of this county.

1044
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,000
Dude, I can't help but do a country accent.

1045
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,000
Quote.

1046
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,000
Packer.

1047
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,000
So, Packer.

1048
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,000
Fuck, okay.

1049
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:45,000
Packer, your Republican cannibal...Republican cannibal, I would sentence you to hell, but the statutes forbid it.

1050
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:46,000
End quote.

1051
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:47,000
That was hard to get through.

1052
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:48,000
That is hard.

1053
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,000
Do you want to know the translated version?

1054
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:52,000
Like the modern day version of that sentence?

1055
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:53,000
Cause I have that too.

1056
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:54,000
Oh yeah.

1057
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:55,000
I probably could have read that.

1058
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:56,000
Do you have it?

1059
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:57,000
Yes.

1060
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:58,000
Quote.

1061
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:06,000
Alfred Packer, the judgment of this court is that you be removed from Hinsdow County and they're confined until the 19th day of May, AD, 1883.

1062
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:23,000
And that on said 19th day of May, 1883, you be taken from thence by the sheriff of Hinsdow County to a place of execution prepared for this purpose at some point within the corporate limits of the town of Lake City in the said county of Hinsdale and between the hours of 10 a.m.

1063
01:13:23,000 --> 01:13:32,000
and 3 p.m. of said day, you then and there by said sheriff be hung by the neck until you are dead, dead, dead, and may God have mercy upon your soul.

1064
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:33,000
End quote.

1065
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:35,000
That was also more, of course, included in that.

1066
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:41,000
Yeah, but that definitely sounds like something you might hear or similar to something that you might hear in a regular court today.

1067
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:42,000
Yes.

1068
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:43,000
But I like the other version.

1069
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:44,000
Oh yeah, I know.

1070
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:45,000
I love that.

1071
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,000
Man, eatin' man.

1072
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:47,000
Son of a bitch.

1073
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:48,000
Son of a bitch.

1074
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:49,000
Son of a bitch is like one word.

1075
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:50,000
Like there's no space.

1076
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:51,000
Son of a bitch.

1077
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:52,000
Very interesting.

1078
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,000
Thanks for bearing with me.

1079
01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:04,000
So just to reiterate, Alfred was sentenced to death by hanging on May 19th, 1883, which just to put into perspective was almost 141 years ago.

1080
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:05,000
That's incredible.

1081
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,000
Well, it will be this May, but yeah, 141 years ago.

1082
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:20,000
Alfred would actually be spared the death penalty for this crime when his lawyers discovered that the books on the death penalty had been repealed and replaced with what was known as a savings clause.

1083
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:21,000
I don't really know much about this.

1084
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:25,000
I didn't really look into it, but essentially it was like a technicality.

1085
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:28,000
So it saved him from being on the death penalty.

1086
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:29,000
Wow.

1087
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:37,000
In October of 1885, Alfred's sentence would be reversed by the Colorado Supreme Court being based on an ex-post facto law.

1088
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:45,000
Essentially what this meant was that the crime was committed, the crime that was committed was done during a time when it was not actually illegal.

1089
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,000
Oh, like the cannibalism and all that?

1090
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:48,000
Yes.

1091
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:58,000
So this ex-facto law stated that the government could not sentence a man to death for committing a crime if it had occurred before Colorado officially became a state as opposed to a territory.

1092
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:02,000
So it wasn't about cannibalism, it was about state laws.

1093
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,000
Exactly.

1094
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:04,000
Interesting.

1095
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:12,000
However, being that Alfred's murder charge and scheduled execution had been overturned, it did not spare him from culpability for the men's deaths.

1096
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:20,000
A second trial would be held in Gunnison following a change of venue for Alfred's hearing that was also granted per the Colorado Supreme Court.

1097
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:29,000
On top of this, a new judge of a Republican party was now presiding, making it essentially impossible for Alfred and his counsel to receive a fair and unbiased trial.

1098
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:32,000
There's a lot of, like, back and forth with this.

1099
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:43,000
Regardless, after a quick trial on June 8th, 1886, Alfred Packer would be convicted of five counts of voluntary manslaughter and subsequently sentenced to 40 years in prison.

1100
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:48,000
This means he was sentenced to eight years per count, which was the maximum sentence allowed at the time.

1101
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:49,000
Eight?

1102
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:50,000
Eight years.

1103
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:51,000
Permitted.

1104
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:52,000
Permitted?

1105
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,000
Multiple homicide.

1106
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:54,000
Whoa.

1107
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,000
At the time, this was the longest sentence in US history.

1108
01:15:57,000 --> 01:15:58,000
40 years.

1109
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:01,000
Like, he was like a baddie.

1110
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,000
Yeah.

1111
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:03,000
Like, he was the baddest of the bad.

1112
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,000
He was the one, yeah.

1113
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:18,000
At the time of his sentencing, it came out that local hunters and officials had made statements that, although the winter of 1874 was harsh, in fact, the worst they'd encountered for some time, the level of active game was plenty active for the area.

1114
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,000
So he was trying to say, like, couldn't find animals for days on end.

1115
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,000
They couldn't find anything, like, at all.

1116
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:26,000
And hunters were like, this is the most money I've made in a year.

1117
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:32,000
They went further to mention that there was even a report of a carcass of a deer that was found near where the bodies were found.

1118
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:34,000
Just untouched.

1119
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,000
Just untouched.

1120
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:43,000
This being the case, it clearly significantly counteracted Alfred's claims that the area was missing animals that could have been crucial to the survival of the group.

1121
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:44,000
Yeah.

1122
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:51,000
I guess it wouldn't be over-hunted because it was kind of a rural territory.

1123
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:52,000
Yeah, right.

1124
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,000
And there's probably not a lot of people that are willing to go out in that weather.

1125
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:55,000
Yeah.

1126
01:16:55,000 --> 01:17:09,000
Furthermore, it came out from the locals that the snow in the area that Alfred insisted on trekking during this time was known to have exceeded more than six feet of snow in a single downfall, paired with extreme winds and freezing temperatures.

1127
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,000
Of course, this couldn't really have been known to Alfred because he didn't know the area, but it's still significant.

1128
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:19,000
It was almost like he was like, okay, I can survive this, but I don't think these men can.

1129
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:23,000
And it's going to give me an upper hand if I put them through this treacherous hike or whatever.

1130
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:27,000
So I'm thinking he lured those guys out there.

1131
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:28,000
He murdered them.

1132
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:35,000
He stayed at the city he knew about, or the town he knew about, and then would just go out there periodically and eat them.

1133
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,000
That's a good actually opinion.

1134
01:17:38,000 --> 01:17:40,000
Yeah, I didn't even think it like that, but that might be...

1135
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:41,000
Oh, shit.

1136
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:47,000
Well, I mean, I'm sure that they... I'm sure at the time some locals might have said, oh, I've seen this man or I haven't seen this man.

1137
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:48,000
That's true.

1138
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:49,000
Yeah.

1139
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:50,000
But I mean...

1140
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:51,000
But again, I witness.

1141
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:52,000
It's all here to say.

1142
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:53,000
I witness.

1143
01:17:53,000 --> 01:18:02,000
Also, the fact that there was a clear route given to the men by someone that definitely knew the area, being Chief O'Rei, was a big flag for the locals and officials that were part of the case.

1144
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:07,000
On top of this, the route that he had told the men that would take a shorter time was in fact not correct.

1145
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:09,000
That is not correct.

1146
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,000
That is not correct.

1147
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:16,000
Traveling through the mountains would have actually taken the exact same amount of time that the other group would have taken.

1148
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:18,000
It was just probably not as traveled.

1149
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:19,000
Yeah.

1150
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,000
The road less traveled.

1151
01:18:20,000 --> 01:18:21,000
The road less traveled.

1152
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:23,000
Yeah, he was all Robert Frost about it.

1153
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:28,000
And yeah, I mean, less prying eyes so he could...

1154
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:29,000
No murder.

1155
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,000
For sure. He wanted them isolated, for sure.

1156
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:40,000
Alfred stupidly would take the stand in his own defense and he would continually state what happened and the first version of events actually took place.

1157
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:50,000
He would additionally make a request that he be charged the 40 years he was given, but solely for the death of Shannon Bell, who is the only man that I killed.

1158
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:51,000
Oh, you get eight years instead.

1159
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,000
No, he's like, you can still give me 40 years.

1160
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:54,000
Yeah.

1161
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:56,000
But it better be fucking on paper that I'm only committed one murder.

1162
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,000
Like, who the fuck cares?

1163
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:01,000
You'll be dead before you get out. Be quiet.

1164
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:02,000
Right.

1165
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:09,000
This request would be denied and Alfred would be sent to serve out his sentence at the Canyon City Penitentiary.

1166
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:14,000
Alfred would remain here until April 23rd of 1907.

1167
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:21,000
On this day, Alfred Packer would die at the age of 65 in Deer Creek, Jefferson County, Colorado.

1168
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:27,000
The cause of his death would be written down as, quote, dementia, trouble and worry, end quote.

1169
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:31,000
However, the clinical cause of death has been described as a stroke.

1170
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,000
It was like whatever.

1171
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,000
It was the black bile once again.

1172
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:36,000
The lung.

1173
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:37,000
The lungs, yes.

1174
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:43,000
So Alfred would originally be buried in Littleton, Colorado with a grave marker that would be stolen.

1175
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,000
Littleton, Colorado?

1176
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:46,000
Yeah.

1177
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:47,000
That's where Columbine is.

1178
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:48,000
Is it?

1179
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:49,000
Littleton, Colorado?

1180
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:50,000
Oh, you're right.

1181
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:58,000
This stands today. The gravestone is a veteran's tombstone listing his original serving date, because again, the first one was stolen.

1182
01:19:58,000 --> 01:19:59,000
Interesting.

1183
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:08,000
In 1973, the Littleton Cemetery Association would cement over Alfred's grave due to the fact that it would be continually dug up and disturbed.

1184
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:16,000
Despite the cemetery's belief that Alfred's body is intact, claims have been made by one Edward Meyer,

1185
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:21,000
the vice president of exhibits and archives for the Ripley's Believe or Not Museum,

1186
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:25,000
that they have Alfred's dissected skull in their possession.

1187
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:26,000
What?

1188
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:31,000
They stated they got a hold of it after purchasing it from an anonymous seller for $20,000.

1189
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:32,000
$20,000?

1190
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:35,000
I'm sorry. This man is a legend, a myth, and you're going to sell it.

1191
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:36,000
In the 70s or whatever.

1192
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,000
I know, but still, $20,000 is not a lot of money.

1193
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:43,000
The skull has not been confirmed to be that of Alfred's.

1194
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:51,000
However, as of 2008, the skull is reported to be at the Ripley's Believe or Not Museum in San Antonio, Texas.

1195
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:52,000
No.

1196
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:58,000
Yeah, and I went there not that long ago with Casey, and I probably saw the skull and didn't even know the story.

1197
01:20:58,000 --> 01:20:59,000
Yeah.

1198
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,000
Let's go take pictures of the skull.

1199
01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,000
Oh, it's expensive, though, the museum.

1200
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:04,000
It is?

1201
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:05,000
It's $60 a person.

1202
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:06,000
Is it really?

1203
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:07,000
Yeah.

1204
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:08,000
That's lame.

1205
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:09,000
But we went and it was a lot of fun.

1206
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:10,000
We spent hours in there.

1207
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:11,000
Oh, well, that's cool.

1208
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:12,000
It might be worth it.

1209
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:15,000
I haven't been there since a very, very, very long time ago.

1210
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:16,000
Yeah, no, it's a lot of fun.

1211
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:17,000
We should go.

1212
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:18,000
Interesting.

1213
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:19,000
We should go.

1214
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:20,000
Yeah.

1215
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:21,000
Isn't that crazy?

1216
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:22,000
I didn't know that.

1217
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:23,000
Okay, there's something even crazier, and I'm going to get to it.

1218
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,000
Okay.

1219
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:28,000
Well, the second thing I was going to say was Alfred was widely rumored to have become a vegetarian before his death.

1220
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:29,000
Just saying.

1221
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:30,000
Just saying.

1222
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,000
Yeah, right.

1223
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:32,000
It was a dietary restriction.

1224
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:33,000
For sure.

1225
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,000
Couldn't eat people anymore.

1226
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:35,000
God, that's awful.

1227
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:47,000
On July 17th, 1989, 115 years after Alfred consumed his friends, an exhumation of all five bodies would begin by a professor of law called James E. Starrs.

1228
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:53,000
This professor specialized in forensic science at George Washington University.

1229
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:58,000
Starrs and his colleagues would state following this and about the cannibalism, quote,

1230
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:03,000
I don't think there will ever be any way to scientifically demonstrate cannibalism.

1231
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:07,000
Cannibalism per se is the ingestion of human flesh.

1232
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:11,000
So you'd have to have a picture of the guy actually eating, end quote.

1233
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:12,000
Oh.

1234
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:14,000
Which is really kind of gross.

1235
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:15,000
But it's true.

1236
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:16,000
I mean, yeah.

1237
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:18,000
I mean, you digest that out.

1238
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:22,000
By the time he was tried, there wouldn't have been any DNA even in his stomach.

1239
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:23,000
You know what I mean?

1240
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:24,000
So like, how do you do it?

1241
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,000
Yeah.

1242
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:27,000
I mean, I know.

1243
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:36,000
The intent behind the exhumations were not to determine if Alfred had cannibalized his friends, but to try and prove that he had murdered them.

1244
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:41,000
The evidence uncovered did confirm the belief that Alfred killed his group members.

1245
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:46,000
The men would be reburied properly following these exhumations.

1246
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,000
And I think they had like funeral proceedings and everything too.

1247
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,000
So this was like, like 100 years later?

1248
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:52,000
Yeah.

1249
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:53,000
Like 115 years or something.

1250
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:54,000
Oh gosh.

1251
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:55,000
Yeah.

1252
01:22:55,000 --> 01:23:00,000
Many people have gone back through the evidence of the crimes and determined that Alfred did in fact murder the men.

1253
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:03,000
But the story in which it played out has widely been differing.

1254
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:07,000
That's why earlier when you asked, I was like, I don't know what really happened.

1255
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:08,000
Yeah.

1256
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,000
But it essentially has been confirmed with evidence that he did it.

1257
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:12,000
Yeah.

1258
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:13,000
But we don't know.

1259
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:16,000
We can't confirm cannibalism, but we can confirm that he murdered them.

1260
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:17,000
Yeah.

1261
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:20,000
In lighter news, because that was a really heavy.

1262
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:31,000
In 1968, students at the University of Colorado Boulder would create a new cafeteria type grill and name it Alfred G. Packer Memorial Grill.

1263
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:32,000
Oh my God.

1264
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,000
With the catchy slogan, quote, have a friend for lunch and...

1265
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:36,000
No.

1266
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:37,000
No.

1267
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:38,000
No.

1268
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:45,000
Among items on this menu were the El Cannibal Beef Burger.

1269
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,000
The restaurant still exists today.

1270
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:49,000
No, it doesn't.

1271
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:55,000
Under the new name Alfred Packer Restaurant and Grill, and we're going when we go to Denver.

1272
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,000
Oh my God.

1273
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:57,000
I swear we have to go to...

1274
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:58,000
Where is it at?

1275
01:23:58,000 --> 01:23:59,000
In Boulder.

1276
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:01,000
And we're going to Boulder anyway.

1277
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:02,000
Oh my God.

1278
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:04,000
I was so excited when I saw that.

1279
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:05,000
I was like, oh my God.

1280
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:07,000
We know what we're doing for lunch.

1281
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:08,000
No, but here's the thing.

1282
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:12,000
It's only open like three days a week, because I think it's definitely like a touristy thing or it's like whatever.

1283
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:16,000
And it's only open like Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday from like 10 to 7 or something.

1284
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,000
But isn't that wild that that still exists?

1285
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:19,000
They got a lot of shit for it.

1286
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:20,000
That is bizarre.

1287
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:21,000
I'm sure.

1288
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:22,000
Yeah.

1289
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:24,000
Have a friend for lunch.

1290
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:25,000
Did you look at their menu?

1291
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,000
Do they have ribs?

1292
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:33,000
I actually didn't look at their menu because, to be honest, I was typing this really fast before we sat down because I was trying to finish it and I didn't get a chance.

1293
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:34,000
Ribs?

1294
01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:35,000
Thy.

1295
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:36,000
Yeah.

1296
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:37,000
Hamburger steak?

1297
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:38,000
Hamburger steak.

1298
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:39,000
It looks like brain.

1299
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:40,000
Ew.

1300
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:44,000
Well, anyway, so cannibalism, right?

1301
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:46,000
We don't really talk about it very often on the podcast.

1302
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:47,000
That's the whole story.

1303
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:53,000
But just really quickly, I just want to pepper in the psychological effects of cannibalism.

1304
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:58,000
The most common consequence of consuming the flesh of the same species is what's known as Kuru.

1305
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:01,000
It's also been dubbed Mad Cow Disease in the past.

1306
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:14,000
It's an incurable and fatal neurological disease that causes the person suffering to experience many symptoms such as tremors, uncontrollable laughter, the inability to walk, and several other very terrible symptoms.

1307
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:15,000
There's like stages.

1308
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:20,000
It's almost like rabies where it starts off like kind of middle school and then it gets really bad really fast.

1309
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:22,000
Like if left untreated?

1310
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:23,000
Yes.

1311
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:27,000
That's all I really have about that just because it's kind of a grotesque topic.

1312
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:28,000
But I did want to throw that in there.

1313
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:38,000
And then just something interesting as well that I read is that many scientists believe that because humans had cannibalized in the past, the gene may have been passed along.

1314
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:44,000
And due to this, people today may have an immunity to developing the disease if they engage in cannibalism.

1315
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:50,000
But that also explains, I mean, if he did engage in cannibalism, he was acting a little erratically.

1316
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:51,000
That might be the case.

1317
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:55,000
He had a stroke, which is a brain thing, but that wasn't until many years later.

1318
01:25:55,000 --> 01:26:03,000
But that also, the second thing about the scientists thinking there might be like an immunity that also may explain people like Jeffrey Dahmer that did consume people.

1319
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:09,000
And I mean, yeah, he was not sane, but he didn't get this Kuru as far as we know.

1320
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:10,000
Right.

1321
01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:11,000
So, yeah.

1322
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:22,000
Well, that reminds me of like Andre Cicatillo too, but that came from like, like you said, like generationally, because he had also claimed that in his family cannibalism was the thing because they were so poor.

1323
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:23,000
Okay.

1324
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:24,000
Yeah.

1325
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:25,000
So yeah, that's interesting though.

1326
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:26,000
But yeah, that's that's the whole case.

1327
01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:27,000
It's a freaking doozy.

1328
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:32,000
I thought you were going to say that it was the story of cannibal the musical.

1329
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:37,000
No, but I was going to mention that at the end that there is actually a musical called cannibal the musical.

1330
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:38,000
I didn't write it in here.

1331
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:40,000
But yes, you were right earlier when you said that.

1332
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:41,000
That's what you thought.

1333
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:47,000
Matt Stone and Trey Parker, South Park is based off of Littleton, Colorado is based off of that.

1334
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:50,000
So it's kind of interesting that they would make cannibal the musical.

1335
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,000
They're the two people that did South Park.

1336
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:55,000
Yeah, I've actually never even heard of it until I did this case.

1337
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:56,000
Yeah.

1338
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:57,000
I'd like to watch it.

1339
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:58,000
That'd be interesting.

1340
01:26:58,000 --> 01:26:59,000
Right.

1341
01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:00,000
But yeah, that's all I have for today.

1342
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:02,000
It was a freaking doozy of a case.

1343
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:03,000
I hope you guys enjoyed it.

1344
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:05,000
Especially for it not being a Patreon.

1345
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:06,000
That's a doozy.

1346
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:07,000
Right.

1347
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:11,000
And yeah, I really think that like honestly, I think I would like to go to that cafe or

1348
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:13,000
that grill or whatever if we can when we're up there.

1349
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:14,000
I'm going to get some ribs.

1350
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:15,000
At some point.

1351
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:16,000
Do you have anything else?

1352
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:17,000
No, that's it.

1353
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:18,000
Okay.

1354
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:19,000
Well, thanks for joining us yet again.

1355
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:22,000
And we will see you guys soon with another Patreon.

1356
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:26,000
If you are not on our Patreon and you want to join our lovely Patreon members again, tier

1357
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:30,000
two and three, get that extra bonus episode that'll be coming out within a week of this

1358
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:31,000
episode.

1359
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:32,000
Yeah.

1360
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:33,000
So I have two two episodes essentially in the same week.

1361
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:34,000
Hell yeah.

1362
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:35,000
Big old cases.

1363
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:36,000
I'm starving.

1364
01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:37,000
Let's go eat.

1365
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:38,000
Love you.

1366
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:39,000
Love you.

1367
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:40,000
Bye.

1368
01:27:40,000 --> 01:27:48,680
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