Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Kenna.
I'm Qua.
Why'd you pause?
I was thinking, was it back in the day that it was like, hello, hello?
Now I feel like we overlap.
We always, I mean, I don't know, we talk over each other all the time.
Hello!
We hope that everyone is having a fabulous week and thank you guys for your continuous support on social media.
This episode is a finna be a doozy, so do you want to give everyone our social media handles before we get into it?
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Yes.
I think that's all we have. I don't know if I can wait much longer to give you this case, so I think we should just get into it.
Well, let's talk about something new that we're going to try.
Yeah, definitely. So we have decided in order for the reactions to truly be super authentic, if you're new here, we don't tell each other who we're doing before we sit down.
It's very, like, right here and now is when you're going to find out who it is.
However, we've noticed that when we do the content warnings in the beginning, it might give some things away for the person sitting in front of us.
Obviously, with the listeners, it's kind of hard not to give a content warning in the beginning,
but we are now going to be presenting the entire case and then simply recording the content warning at the end as to not give anything away in the story.
To each other.
It won't sound different to you guys, but we now are going to be truly reacting because we don't even know what's in the content warning.
So true.
Yeah, the Joel Michael Guide Junior episode I had given my content warning,
and there was a little bit of anxiety when it came to the family pet, Jake,
and kind of like, but you didn't say in the content warning there was anything with animals.
So I'm going to assume the dog's okay.
So we were kind of talking about that and we're like, well, for added suspense for each other and a little bit, I guess, like more of an authentic reaction.
We don't give it away. So we don't give it away to each other.
And then yeah, so again, it won't sound differently to you guys, but just keep that in mind that now we truly do not know what's coming.
Yeah, except for the person's name.
Yeah, so we're going to say that, of course.
All right. Well, forgive me.
My allergies are really, really bad.
Oh, and mom's cooking some sort of peppers and my eyes are watering.
Yeah, I feel like I want to choke.
My nose is going to run a lot because with all the spiciness in the air, my sinuses.
Oh my gosh, I have all the tissues standing by.
There we go.
Okay, let's get into it.
You might know who this person is.
Surprisingly, Casey knew who he was and Casey's not a big true crime guy, but it's also a no.
It's not John Wilkes.
Not J.W. Me. No.
Like he's homies.
Yeah, like we're friends.
This is also like kind of like a historical case as well.
So that might explain why Casey knows the story.
This is a history guy.
No, I just said guy.
Oh, okay. Cleopatra.
So, no.
Today, we are going to be talking about one Alfred Packer.
Do you know who he is?
No.
Oh, you're convincing.
Okay, content warning.
This episode contains depictions of cannibalism, grotesque detail of consumption of human flesh, and poor treatment of deceased people.
If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.
Remember, your mental health is very important and we love you.
Love you. Bye.
Alfred Griner Packer was born on January 21st, 1842, in an unincorporated area of Alginie County, Pennsylvania.
His middle name is Griner.
Griner. I think it's a, I think it's maybe a...
Last name. That's a middle name now.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like his mom's last name and then his dad's last name.
I see.
He would be one of three children born to parents James Packer and Esther Griner.
So, since Alfred was born a long time ago, there are differing accounts of most details of his life up to and even including his name and date of birth.
What?
So, other sources I saw stated that instead of January 21st, his birthday was actually November 21st of the same year, and that his real name is actually Alfred rather than Alfred.
That's okay.
So, it's almost like he might have changed his name later in life to Alfred instead of Alfred, but we're gonna call him Alfred because that's the majority here that I was looking at.
Yeah. Well, a lot of things back then were written. Like it was all written documentation because nothing, I mean, typing was expensive, you know, if you could afford it.
Yeah.
Or if you knew how.
Or if you knew how exactly to spell. And so a lot of it's like reading. And so it's like, is it Alfred, Alfred, Al...
But it's Alfred with an, not Alford, Alfred.
Alfred.
Yeah.
So this sounds like somebody didn't write it down correctly.
Exactly.
This is in the history books, folks.
Right.
So obviously there is not going to be a lot known about his childhood, but by the early 1850s, Alfred's father had moved the family to LaGrange County, Indiana, where he would pick up work as a cabinet maker.
Alfred was also known to have suffered from epilepsy from a young age, and he had less than a great relationship with his parents.
Those two things aren't like combined, but it was like his parents kind of essentially this is bad, but felt like he was kind of a lot because of the epilepsy.
Epilepsy.
And he did have fits as well, which we'll get more into.
This being the case, Alfred would pick up and leave the family and his late teens when he would move to Minnesota and gain work as a shoemaker.
Minnesota.
At this point in time, epilepsy was thought to be linked to insanity.
So this obviously gave Alfred a negative outlook on his mental health from a very young age.
Yeah.
They were like, oh, he has male hysteria.
He has the faeva.
He's got the faeva.
No, actually, though, it's like, oh, you're seizing.
That's fucking, you're insane.
Yeah.
Essentially is what they thought, you know, because like, what else are you going to fucking think?
It's the 1850s.
Yeah, you don't know it's medical.
You think it's mental.
Exactly.
So on his own for a while now, Alfred would enlist with two different Union regiments during the Civil War.
The Civil War happened from 1861 to 1865, if you're not familiar.
So Alfred would have been in his late teens slash early twenties around this point.
He would enlist on April 22, 1862 to be exact, and would be assigned first to company F of the 16th Infantry Regiment.
Good job.
Thank you.
Infantry is funny to me because it's like the younger guys apparently is what that means.
I mean, I don't know.
Unfortunately, Alfred would be honorably discharged after only eight months in the service due to seizures that would occur once every other day, if not more frequently.
They're like, this guy's insane.
Get him out of here.
Get him out of here because we can't deal with insane lunatics.
Well, he's also like probably not helping.
He's like, he's essentially like, it's a curse.
It's just a fucking problem to them.
Yeah, it's just occurring too regularly for him to fully be able to function.
Yeah, which sucks because I can't even imagine, first of all, dealing with that in general, even in today's world, but dealing with that and having people call you crazy.
And you're like, no, I'm literally like saying like I know I am.
I just sometimes pass out and seize.
I don't know why and I can't fix it because everyone thinks I'm crazy.
Yeah, and especially for someone who wants to enlist and actually serve their country and be a part of that.
And your body is fighting against you.
How frustrating that must be.
For sure.
And it might have been even caused by the rapid gunfire, like flashing lights and all the, you know, whatever, you know, in the military.
So I said he enlisted twice on June 25th, 1863.
Alfred would then enlist in the 8th Iowa Calvary Regiment in Ottawa, Iowa.
Excuse me.
I'm glad he didn't give it up then.
What?
Give up the military, like, altogether.
Oh, yeah.
Enlisted.
Unfortunately, like I said, his condition would not be treated at all and he would be discharged yet again from here on April 22nd, 1864.
Again, that's got to be so fucking frustrating because you're like, yeah.
He's like, I'm trying.
I'm really trying here and then to feel like outcasted because of something you can't help.
For sure.
Following his discharge from the military, Alfred would decide to head west and would pick up numerous different jobs around this time.
Alfred would pick up work as a hunter, a hard rock miner, a trapper, a teamster guide, et cetera.
I don't know what any of those are except for a hunter.
Well, I know hard rock miners.
A trapper's like, like bear traps and stuff, like a trapper.
Oh, there you go.
Like a game trapper.
These are just old-timey, like, careers.
He was a cabler.
He was a candle maker.
He was a watch engineer.
Watch engineer.
Why does he have watches back then?
I guess they had watches back then.
It's so funny.
Unfortunately, all of these jobs would eventually come to an end and it goes back to the epilepsy.
Although Alfred's medical problems were the main reason behind him losing employment, he was also known to have quite a terrible attitude.
On top of this, when he found work as a guide, he was widely criticized for not being particularly suited for the role, and he was known for being prone to lose his way a lot.
So he's like, I'm a guy and I'll guide you here and then he gets the whole group lost.
He can't read a map.
Yes.
He just was seemingly, like, not good at, like, any job.
Yeah, some people just aren't born with an innate sense of direction.
I love that movie.
An innate sense of direction.
So funny.
Okay, yes.
But by the year 1872, Alfred found himself working as a miner in Georgetown, Colorado.
While here, he would become injured when a sledgehammer came down on his hand, causing him to lose part of his left pinky and index finger.
This guy can't catch a break.
He really can't.
And the sledgehammer might have, like, fallen because he was having, like, an epileptic attack or something.
Epileptic.
Epileptic attack.
You know.
That's hard to say.
It is.
Words.
Alfred would continue as a miner, but he would land in Utah in 1873, being a miner, a rock miner.
He wasn't a coal miner.
He was, like, a, like, a jewel miner.
Like a jewel, yeah.
A gem miner.
Yes.
Around this time, word would get around of a huge gold strike in Colorado, causing many men to quit their jobs to travel to the area in search of this gold.
According to a local newspaper at the time, there were, quote, marvelous tales of enormous fortunes to be had for the mere asking.
Oh.
Marvelous tales.
That sounds to me.
Marvelous.
In November of 1873, 19 men would leave the Bingham Canyon mines near Salt Lake City, with the intention of heading towards the fields of Breckenridge, Colorado.
These men were mostly strangers to one another, and they would essentially all band together and head to Colorado as a group, a man called Bob McGrew leading the pack.
Another member of the original group of men named George Tracy would claim that he and the men would encounter a man by the name of Alfred Packer about 25 miles into their trek.
Hmm.
Upon seeing the men, Alfred inquired about where they were headed, and when he heard that the group had set out for the San Juan Mountains, he asked if he could join them.
He's a guide.
He's the guide.
I'm the guide after all.
Like, I'm a professional guide.
Yes.
I don't get paid or anything, but I'm a professional guide.
A professional of getting lost.
Yeah, for sure.
Noticing almost immediately that Alfred was without adequate supplies or money, the men were initially reluctant to bring him along.
Yeah, of course, he's like, I can be your guide, I'm just going to need food, shelter, water, and protection.
So yeah, that's funny you say that because Alfred actually claimed that he was both a prospector and a guide, and that he in fact knew the San Juan territory very well.
I know I like the back of my hand.
Yes.
Hearing this, the men decided that he may be an asset to their travels and allowed him to come along.
With this knowledge, Alfred was able to gain a sort of notoriety amongst the group, who had little to no knowledge about Colorado's geography.
Unfortunately, neither did Alfred.
He's like, oh look, over there, there's a bear that's mounted, mountain lion, they're native, I think, I'm not sure.
Alfred would quickly gain the attention of the men and other than positive ways as they shortly began to realize that he may not be as equipped to handle the circumstances as they thought.
He's like, oh my god, I'm dying, I'm so cold, I'm hungry, I'm starving.
I'm seizing.
I thought you were an adventurer.
He's like, yeah, I'm an adventurer, but also I'm hungry.
We have to stop once every two days for me to have a...
It's terrible, I'm not trying to make fun of it, I'm really not, it's terrible.
But they're like, oh my god, this guy kind of doesn't know where he's going and he has this medical problem.
Well, in their minds, he's insane.
The men began to realize that Alfred had vastly overstated his qualifications in order to join the crew and potentially even lied altogether about his knowledge of the area.
They were like, mmm.
It's like when Joey on Friends lies about being able to speak French on his resume and they challenge him to speak French or something.
I don't watch Friends.
It's like that though.
Yeah, that's true.
You lie on something on your resume and then they ask for the receipts and you're like shit.
Alfred ate all the fucking Pop Tarts, you know.
So unfortunately, there was really no way to kick Alfred out of the group of men because they were all traveling together.
It's not like they're not going to be like, hey, you stay here and we're all going to walk this way.
They're all lost anyway.
Yeah.
Just keep him around and if he dies, just eat his body first.
As the days went on, Alfred was reported as being greedy with food and supply rations, lazy and unwilling to cooperate with the quote leaders of the expedition expeditions.
Excuse me.
A man called Frank Miller was also reported to have been in multiple quarrels with Alfred during the time of their travels.
Another man by the name of Preston Nutter would later comment on Alfred's behavior.
Quote.
He was sulky, obstinate and quarrelsome.
He was a petty thief willing to take things that did not belong to him, whether of any value or not.
That's like a great early 1900s insult if I've ever heard of it.
Yeah.
He was lazy.
He was obstinate.
Petty thief.
He was a petty scandal.
Now they're like British all of a sudden.
I mean they kind of were.
Well, yeah.
I guess. So not only did Alfred's behavior turn a lot of men in this group against him, but he would again continue having seizures during this time, causing the group a lot of stress and unfortunately resentment towards him.
In one specific mentioned episode, the men were all sitting around a campfire that they had made for the night while they stopped.
He just came by and hogged all the heat.
Yeah.
Oh, this guy has soaking up all the heat from this fire.
He actually would suffer a seizure and unfortunately he was very close to the fire.
Oh shit.
He would ultimately fall into the flames and at the same time he would knock a hot coffee pot over as well.
Not only would Alfred get burned by the fire, but the coffee would splash into his face causing extensive burns.
It's not funny.
I feel bad.
I feel bad that I said what I said.
I know.
I was thinking that was like, oh, you're gonna feel bad.
I just imagined that.
I'm sitting around me like, he's using the heat.
I'm the one that made the fire.
I made the fire.
He's just using it.
Like it's from fiber.
So although there were many obstacles that the group had tackled, they managed to remain together for a few months into the trip, even gaining another member, bringing the group total up to 21 men.
Due to the fact that it was the middle of winter, the group was obviously bombarded with treacherous environments, with snow beating down on them most days and nights.
Going into the new year, the food was beginning to become scarce and the group of men would eventually be forced to eat some of their livestock's food in order to survive, like the food that they had brought for their horses and stuff.
When this food ran out, they would begin butchering their own animals that were previously carrying the supplies that they had.
All the men had at this point for traveling.
The Spanish Trail was a compass and no extra information from the man that claimed to know the route they were traveling.
I'd be so pissed.
Me too.
I'd be halfway there and be like, God damn it, we have another fucking three months with this motherfucker.
Yeah.
My question is, why are they picking up people?
I mean, I guess they might have picked up the 21st person before they started having hardships, but it's kind of like...
That's true.
But also, it's like there is a group of men and you're there by yourself, like what are they going to run away from you?
You know what I mean?
You can see this giant group of men, it's kind of just like easy to go with them.
That's true.
I don't know.
I mean, I guess they are thinking that they're going to hit, like make it big with the gold rush.
Yeah.
But at the same time, it's like, I mean, I guess in the winter, it's got to be hard to hunt even if they could.
That's true.
Unfortunately, with the blistering snow covering their route, the group would ultimately become very lost.
On January 21st, 1874, the group of men would stumble upon the encampment of a man by the name of Chief O'Rea,
known as, quote, the white man's friend, end quote.
That's either Alfred's birthday or not, by the way.
Oh yeah.
This camp was located near Montrose, Colorado, within the Uncunggah Gray Valley, and was home to many.
While the men were unsure that it was safe to approach the camp, they were at the point where it was desperate to them to receive help,
and they reluctantly approached the tribe.
Upon approaching the tribe, it was noted that the presence of the men alerted some of the members and caused them to flee in fear.
Not only were they of a different appearance, but they reportedly looked very disheveled, and it was not certain that they weren't there for a sinister reason,
like to rob people or something.
To rob them, or maybe they were sick.
You know what I mean?
And at this point, natives had already learned that they were susceptible to diseases as well.
Yeah, definitely.
As Chief Alrae greeted them with welcome arms, immediately supplying them with food, and would even offer them lodging for the night, or as long as they needed.
Chief Alrae would go even further to offer them a place to stay until the spring, as he knew they were likely to encounter more dangerous weather and experiences throughout the cold winter.
Wow.
He would explain to them that even the people in his tribe would not attempt the same journey during the winter months, and that if they decided to take the chance, it would most certainly end up in death for most, if not all of them.
What a guy though.
Right? So nice.
You didn't have to do that.
No, he could have just been like, in order to protect my people, get the fuck out.
Yeah, exactly.
Chief Alrae would offer the men to stay with the tribe until it warmed up, and even promised to share all that he and his tribe members had with them.
Although it was very kind for Chief Alrae to offer the men a place to stay and wait out the cold, it quickly became apparent that not all of the men were interested in doing that.
The town of Breckenridge was being essentially invaded by miners from all over that were looking to get their hands on the gold that was circling the news.
After only a few weeks with the tribe, the group of men would seriously discuss leaving.
However, at this point, it was the beginning of February, and the snow had been continually falling since their arrival at the camp.
This being the case, it would be pretty difficult for not only the group of men to leave, but also to haul the remainder of their supplies with them.
The men who were with the remainder of their horses would not be able to continue on, but 11 men from the group that did not have extra cargo with them decided to go ahead with their journey.
Understanding there was no changing their minds, Chief Alrae would give the men food for their journey and gave them the best directions he knew in order for the men to reach Breckenridge safely.
Which is still so nice, you don't have to do that.
It is, but it's like, I like that he's like, well I'm not going to convince you to stay, but...
Yeah, here's some food, hopefully you make it. What is he going to do? Hold him hostage? You can't really do that.
I feel like this is only going to end poorly for these poor sales. 11 men.
The men planned to make a stop at the Los Pinos Indian Agency, the closest outpost to the camp, before going to Breckenridge.
However, their original plan on how to get there was quickly shot down by Alfred, who would explain that just going through the mountains would be more direct and faster.
Yeah, because he's done so well up until this point.
That's far.
But they're totally going to instill a lot of trust into him.
So five out of these 11 men were adamant that they go by the route that Chief Alrae gave them as he clearly knew the land better than Alfred.
Alfred insisted that he knew this part of the land well and that his way was much quicker.
The five men on his side would be convinced to follow him while the other five men would follow the original route given by Chief Alrae.
I was going to, like, okay, like, I, it's like a horror movie. Why do you all keep splitting up? This is ridiculous.
Yeah, don't, everyone split up.
Everybody stay together.
So the original route, the one that Chief Alrae gave the men, would have had them mostly following along the Gunnison River.
And again, the other was going through the mountains.
So the river group would leave first with Alfred and his men staying behind a few more days.
Of these men that left, a man called Oliver D. Lautzenheiser was part of the group.
He and the other four men would follow along the river, but with the freezing temperatures and dwindling supplies, they figured they were not long for their journey.
They would run out of food well before reaching their destination and found themselves frighteningly close to starvation when they came across some cowhands from the government cattle camp near Gunnison, Colorado.
Cowhands? Okay, like a ranch hand.
It's like some cowhands.
They have cowhands, aren't those hooves?
These cowhands would offer the men food and shelter to which they would accept.
So the original five men would ultimately end up staying at this camp until April.
So they were like, okay, they were right. We should have waited out the winter and now we're going to wait here instead.
Okay, well good. And that's the five?
The original five that took Chief Alrae's route.
Meanwhile, on February 9th, Alfred and the other five men, so six of them total, would leave for the same agency, but on a different route.
In this group of men, Alfred, Shannon Wilson Bell, James Humphrey, Frank Butcher Miller, George California Noon, and Israel Swan.
That's not their middle name, that's their nickname.
It's a Butcher in California.
So we all know at this point that most of the men did not trust that Alfred knew the land like he had claimed.
However, it's thought that this being the case, the men had simply just grown tired of him acting like he knew everything, and they were possibly just planning on abandoning him after they took off.
Yeah.
Like, okay, we'll let him get us as far as he knows, and then if he becomes a problem, we'll just abandon him.
Yeah. Or I mean, I'm sure he was pretty convincing, like, oh, this is a shorter way if we go through the mountains.
They probably were thinking, well, that is a shorter way.
So we'll just go this way, not because Alfred's saying to.
Yeah.
Because we're gonna.
Because we want to.
The man responsible for both groups of men, Bob McGrew, would initially lead the second group along the route given by Chief Aure.
He would take them as far as he could along the river, but when it became difficult for his horse, he would drop the men, his supplies, and return to the camp.
So he like led them originally as far as he could go, and then once he left them, the men started up the mountain.
Okay.
The journey was along 75 miles, and after McGrew left the men, again, they would continue along the river before Alfred would lead them along a path higher up in the mountains.
Again, he urged the men that it would be faster, and the amount of food they had would only last them for about two weeks, which would be less than needed with the other route.
So he's also saying, like, even if we go that original route, we don't have enough food.
Yeah.
So we have to go this way, essentially.
Either way, yeah.
The men would reluctantly go into the mountains with two rifles, one pistol, a couple of knives, a hatchet, and minimal ammunition between the six of them.
A few months later, on April 16, 1874, Alfred Packer would emerge from the woods alone.
Oh my God!
He would stumble across a frozen lake to the Los Pinos Indian Agency, the one they originally set out to reach.
He had rags attached to his feet, seemingly to protect them from the snow.
The men of the agency were sitting around the mess hall area eating breakfast when the door flung open.
Alfred would immediately begin begging for food and shelter, to which the men supplied him with.
On his person, Alfred had a rifle, a knife, a steel coffee pot, and a satchel.
And a string of teeth around his neck.
Like, that's so bad.
The men would quickly get Alfred inside, sit him down at the table, and provide him with food.
He would eat so fast that it would cause him to throw up.
He told the men that his digestion had been altered due to going so many days without eating anything.
The men would continue to supply him with things, including whiskey, which Alfred gladly took a few shots of.
Oh no, no food. The whiskey's fine.
I'll take the whiskey.
Just leave that bottle there.
Blep!
Feeling pretty good from the alcohol, Alfred would relay to the men the events leading up to them arriving at Chief Alrae's camp.
He told these men that he had been hired by five men to guide them to Breckenridge from there,
and stated that during their journey, he had become snow-blind and was lagging behind the remainder of his party.
He said that he felt he was becoming a burden to them, and then claimed that a member of the party, Israel Swan,
had supplied him with the rifle before the rest of the men abandoned him.
He would go further to claim that he was forced to survive on his own and make his way out of the mountains with little ammunition and essentially no supplies.
He stated that in order to survive, he ate tree roots and rose buds, as there was really no animals around because of the snow, right?
Yeah.
As the men listened, Alfred's story seemed to be a little bit off.
For one, he did look disheveled, but he didn't look as malnourished as someone would being lost in the wilderness for the better part of two months.
On top of this, the men noticed that his face was bloated, but his overall physique was really thin.
They called it like almost skeletal.
Hmm.
Alfred would also claim that he had no money, and because of this, he would offer to sell his rifle to Major Downer, the agency's justice of the peace, for ten dollars, which would be about 260 today.
Oh, that's quite a pretty penny.
Alfred would take advantage of the kindness of the men at the agency for a little while, but after ten days, he would express interest in returning home to Pennsylvania.
He would leave the agency and head to the nearby town of Sewatch to buy supplies for his journey.
Once here, Alfred would meet a man by the name of Larry Dolan, who owned a saloon.
A saloon?
The two would engage in conversation, and Alfred would quickly change his intentions for his travels when Larry offered him to stay in a room at the saloon.
Larry would later state that Alfred spent around $100, which would be about 2500 today, during his stay, and even offered to lend him $300 for something else on top of this.
What?
So he only has ten dollars, because he sold the rifle, he has no money.
He only has ten dollars, but now how did he get this extra four hundred dollars now that he's spending?
He said that he was broke.
Yes.
Alfred allegedly also spent another $78 in a general store owned by one Otto Mears.
It was also later claimed that Alfred had several different wallets in his possession.
It's kind of funky.
He...
He might have been a collector.
He was known to drink heavily around this time, and he would frequently talk about his journey with the men once drunk.
Hmm.
His stories would often change on how he came to be separated from the other men.
Having many different conversations with people around town, word quickly spread about his inconsistent story.
Oh, interesting.
People around town would begin talking, and questions began to raise about the truth of Alfred's journey, specifically how he came to be separated from his traveling group.
Mm-hmm.
On top of this, he seemed to have an almost endless cash flow, and he was partying a lot, although his group was seemingly missing.
Yeah.
So it's like, why aren't you broken up about it?
Meanwhile, Preston Nutter from the original party and whom stayed at Chief Al Ray's camp while the others continued on, arrived in Sawatch.
He would find himself, along with two other members of the original group, at Larry Dolan's Saloon, aptly named Dolan's Saloon.
Once there, they were surprised to find that Alfred was there, alone, and seemingly having a grand old time.
Preston asked Alfred where the rest of his party was, to which Alfred claimed that he had, quote,
got his feet wet and frozen, and the group had set up a camp when a big winter storm came in.
He said he started a fire to warm up while the other men went out to look for food.
Before leaving, Alfred said that Israel Swan left him with a rifle, and the men just didn't come back after they said they were going to, like, get food.
I mean, clearly he's lying, because we all know Alfred, he can't start a fire.
Yeah, for sure.
He probably had to rely on someone else to do it.
That's all that warmth.
Second of all, this whole time, people have been told that there's five missing men in the woods somewhere, and nobody's doing anything.
Well, like, that's strange.
I understand, like, that people traveled that way.
But still, at the same time, they left him because they were all in agreement that they were going to meet up there.
So, at this point, the men are missing, what do you think?
Or maybe he's telling them, well, hey, I don't know, they probably are already in fucking Breckenridge.
They got the jump on you.
That was their intended destination.
The stopping point, of course.
That's true.
Yeah, and this is actually the town over from the agency.
Okay.
So, yeah, it's not really on their route, so I don't know.
Yeah.
They probably just didn't care.
So, Alfred continued, stating that after the men left him by the fire, he figured that they had abandoned him, so he would just go on on his own.
He said he had no idea where the group ended up following this, and again, he was forced to survive on Rosebuds and the occasional squirrel.
Preston thought that this story seemed odd, as Alfred looked rather well-fed and not particularly upset about potentially losing five men that were his responsibility, because he's the guide.
I'm the guide.
He's just the best guide ever.
You just never see him again.
I'm the map, I'm the map, I'm the map.
Oh my gosh.
Actually, though.
On top of this, Preston thought that it would have been kind of silly of these men to leave the one person who claimed to know the route they were taking, because no one else knew the way, because remember, he was like, it's faster this way.
Just put Alfred in a backpack and then carry him around.
He's your guide.
Backpack, backpack, backpack.
It's just gonna keep going around to Dora.
That's like, we're not swiping.
Furthermore, Preston thought it was odd that Israel Swan would give Alfred his rifle, leaving the remaining four men with only one gun between them.
Yeah.
Or one rifle.
Finally, he noted that Alfred had a skinning knife on him that he knew belonged to Frank Miller.
Ooh.
When Preston questioned Alfred about how he came to have this knife, Alfred claimed that Frank had stuck it in a tree while they were at the camp and had left it behind.
Like, he stuck it in a tree, like, fucking around, or to keep it, they left.
Again, never came back, so he's like, I'm not fucking leaving this here.
He takes it.
Yeah.
He walks like 20 paces and then he's like, oh, it's too far.
I'm not going back for my knife.
Right.
Something I need to survive.
Exactly.
From the beginning of talking with Alfred, Preston had suspicions about the truth behind his claims.
He quickly became convinced that something sinister had actually taken place.
Preston would almost immediately become confrontational against Alfred, and the two engaged in arguments of sorts regarding the rest of the men.
Nothing serious would come of this conversation, and the two men would separate.
Alfred quickly making plans to move on the next day.
He's like, okay, I'm just going to get the fuck out of here, right?
Yeah.
Oh, by the way, I have plans.
Right.
I'm going back to Pennsylvania.
Meanwhile, back at the Los Pinos Indian Agency, two men of the original five men party who took the route told by Chief Al Ray would arrive at their destination, and they would be joined by the remaining three men shortly after.
The men would be introduced to the head of the agency, General Charles Adams, who would greet them and relate to them that he had already met a man whom they most likely knew, Alfred Packer.
He told the group that during his conversation with Alfred, it had become clear that the men he was traveling with had not arrived with him.
All of these men would quickly explain to Charles that they knew the five men that Alfred was traveling with, and they were adamant about the fact that they would have not abandoned one of their own, no matter who it was.
All of our D. Lautzenheiser would tell the general that Alfred was not to be trusted, and that he was sure that something bad had happened in the mountains.
He also noted that the rifle held by Alfred belonged to an elderly man that he was traveling with, and that a pipe that he had left behind at the agency had also belonged to another man from the group.
He has like one thing for me to these men.
Yeah, they're all trophies.
The men would convince General Adams to send authorities to swatch immediately and detain Alfred for questioning.
However, they were clear that the authorities should not disclose the reason behind them talking to Alfred, and suggested that they pretend that they were recruiting him for a search party of the missing men.
Okay.
So now they're going to look for him.
Yeah.
The agency officer happened to arrive at the perfect time around the time that the argument between Preston and Alfred was coming to an end.
The officer told Alfred that he had been sent by the agency to enlist him as a guide for the search party since he knew the area so well.
He feeds right into his ego.
That's amazing.
Alfred was initially reluctant to go, but he decided to agree when he realized he didn't have a good argument to not go.
No, no, I got plans, you know, or whatever.
Like he has to pretend like he wants to find them.
That he gives a shit.
Alfred mounted his newly purchased horse and followed the officer, but not before Preston had a chance to talk with the officer.
Upon arriving back at the agency, Alfred would come face to face with General Adams and the five other men whom he saw leave for the route suggested by Chief Alrae.
Interesting.
The officer would join the group of men and relate to Alfred, what transpired through his conversation with Preston Nutter.
Preston had told the officer about Alfred's lavish lifestyle, how he had recently purchased a lot of new things and was constantly drunk and partying.
He had also gained access to items that he knew belonged to the men he journeyed with and how Preston was certain that Alfred was penniless before they set out to the mountains.
He's got like a blinged out horse.
Right.
Yeah, he has like a bridle that's all nice.
Yeah, pit my ride.
He's got a fish tank.
Pit my ride.
Oliver Loutzenheiser would demand an explanation from Alfred, who would repeat the same story as he first told the men at the agency.
Alfred seemed to be shocked at the fact that the men had not been located or turned up on their own.
What?
They're not here?
Without a guide.
Don't say.
Oliver would laugh in Alfred's face, stating that he should tell the group where his newfound wealth had come from, to which Alfred stated that he had received a loan from a man in Soich.
General Adams said that if that was the truth, then Alfred shouldn't mind staying at the agency while the other officer went back to verify.
They just walked back and forth to these towns.
Yeah, they're like literally 10 steps away or something.
Alfred reluctantly agreed and the officer was immediately sent back to confirm.
After a little while, the officer returned with the opposite of corroborating news.
He said that he was told that Alfred arrived in Soich with plenty of cash and no one in town had seemed to lend him any money at all.
This is also back when you could talk to like everyone in town over a matter of like hours.
Yeah, every person is there.
There's like one innkeeper, one bartender, one sheriff, one...
After receiving this news, General Adams would create a task force of sorts consisting of himself, five miners, Alfred and the agency officers to get down to the bottom of things.
Almost as soon as they began, two tribesmen would rush into the agency holding dried strips of human flesh.
They would describe as quote, white man's meat and quote.
Oh my God.
Like at this same moment, they're about to go like, oh, let's go find these guys and these people come running, they're like, look what we just fucking found.
This sounds like a play.
I know.
They stated that they had found this on a hill near the agency while they were hunting.
Alfred, hearing this, fell to the floor and broke down.
Once he was able to be picked up and calmed down, he would profusely begin begging for forgiveness and swore to make a full confession.
Ew.
I thought he was gonna, like he's like, no, my friends, I barely knew you.
Yeah, you would think.
After a long silence, Alfred turned to General Adams and stated quote, it would not be the first time that people had been obliged to eat each other when they were hungry and quote.
Ew.
Shut this laptop. I'm out of here. I'm flipping this table.
Fucking gone.
Yeah.
It's just funny that not funny, but you said earlier, you were like, well, the first person that died, you know, remember?
Yeah.
That's not funny.
It's like a dumber party.
Also, I was gonna leave this out of the beginning, not to spoil things for you, but his nickname is the Colorado cannibal.
If I say that in the beginning, it's gonna ruin it.
Oh my God.
Okay, I'm gonna shut my mouth right now.
Cause like, I, okay, no, I don't want it. I think I, I think I know something, but I don't know if I know it, so I don't want to spoil it for anyone.
I love like the first three words of all these different thoughts that are coming in.
I just think of the words.
Ugh.
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So yes, it is now known that Alfred is essentially suggesting that cannibalism might have occurred here.
He's strongly suggesting.
Strips of human flesh.
Immediately, Herman Lautner, the agency clerk, came into the conversation and began transcribing everything that was being said.
Small cookie.
Alfred claimed that the men had left the camp with what they thought was sufficient food for the journey through the mountains.
The journey they thought was to take a full 14 days, but before they knew it, the provisions they brought with them had dwindled to little.
I'm sure Alfred ate all of it.
Yeah, he probably did.
He did. He ate all the granola bars and he didn't share all the crumbs because he was just hungry.
Exactly.
He's like, oh, I'll have this food. What is it? It's a family guy where they have all this food for the apocalypse and Peter eats all of it in one night.
That was essentially it.
It's not that he was starving. It's just that he just wasn't full.
So he decided to just sneak a granola bar here and there.
It's awful.
Alfred said that the men survived for days on roots dug from the ground, pine gum, rose buds, and the occasional small game animal.
However, Alfred claimed after a few days of no wildlife activity due to the extreme weather, the men started to eye each other in a way which he had stated was unsettling.
It's like the cartoons when you imagine someone's a hamburger or a ham.
Exactly.
Alfred claimed that a few days after this, he left the camp in order to gather dry firewood and returned to find the four men surrounding the murdered body of Israel Swan.
He claimed they murdered him?
Yeah, he's like, I was gone.
And I came back and Israel's dead.
And he was just, yeah.
He stated that Israel had been struck in the head with a hatchet and killed instantly.
Alfred claimed that the other four men had begun to butcher Israel's body to which he was hesitant about at first, but reluctantly joined in due to fear that he would also be killed if he didn't.
Yeah, I don't want to be the odd man out, right?
Even though I've been the odd man out this whole time.
He also claimed that several thousand dollars were found on Israel's body, which the men then split between them.
Alfred stated that the men then consumed the parts of Israel's body that they all agreed upon and then moved on.
Alfred packing up Israel's rifle in the process.
Yeah, they just were like, oh, like, you were reluctant to participate in this, but we're going to go ahead and gift you his rifle.
Yeah, exactly.
Within two days, however, the men were out of consumable meat and they were still unable to find animals to hunt.
At this point, Alfred claims he, Shannon Bell, James Humphrey, and George Noon decided in secret that Frank Miller would be the next to go.
He's the butcher?
Yes.
Alfred confessed that Frank was quite a stocky man and the reason he was chosen was for his amount of flesh, which is really horrible.
Sounds like a butcher.
Yeah, a stocky butcher, that makes sense.
Frank would quickly after this be killed with a hatchet blow to the head while he was kneeling to pick up wood for a fire.
He would then be butchered and consumed similarly to Israel.
Following this, Alfred would take Frank's knife and Frank's share of money would be distributed amongst the remaining men.
Again, this is all from Alfred's story. This is the transcription, essentially, of the first time he's relayed this story.
Yeah.
Alfred would continue, stating that as the men went on, they were barely able to see in front of them.
Reaching the same situation as before, they found themselves out of, quote, food and without animals in their presence.
Eventually, James and George would also be killed and consumed, leaving just Shannon and Alfred by themselves.
You would think that some of these people would be like, well, I'm seeing a pattern forming here.
I'm gonna go this way and just look for food, quote, and just...
Or it's like, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be ugly, but it's like, why didn't they all turn against Alfred?
They clearly didn't care for him. He was killed on ball.
If this was really the case, why didn't they all turn against him and kill him?
Because I'm the guide. I was like, oh, dude, I forgot.
It's the real world, I'm the guide.
Alfred stated that he and Shannon swore on Almighty God not to eat each other.
However, they had each had a rifle and a couple of thousands of dollars on them.
This being the case, they figured this would be enough to get them through the remainder of their trip together.
The two men came up with a plan that when they arrived at their destination,
they would say that the other three men had perished from the elements and were buried with dignity.
They vowed never to speak of the cannibalism, as they felt that no one would ever believe that it was, quote, necessary.
After traveling for another few days and only having so much as a small rabbit between them,
the men were exhausted and chose to set up camp for the night next to a large lake.
Alfred said that they were there for another few days,
and around this time, Shannon would do something out of the ordinary.
The men were laid down for the night when Alfred stated that Shannon shut up out of his blanket
and screamed that he could not take it anymore.
He told Alfred that one of them was going to have to die so that the other one could eat.
Alfred claimed that Shannon grabbed the rifle and sprinted towards Alfred,
seemingly wanting to hit him over the head with it, suggesting they might have run out of ammo at this point.
Alfred stated that he was able to dodge the blow and would simultaneously strike Shannon in the head with the hatchet.
He then butchered Shannon similarly to the other men and consumed him similarly as well.
Alfred claimed to have portioned out the remainder of the food for himself
and packed his things for the journey ahead, also taking the money off of Shannon's person for himself.
Might as well. He's not using it.
However, Alfred, not really knowing the area, was unsure about how long he had to go
or if he even had enough supplies to maintain himself.
After a while, he said he came across a hill and saw the Los Pinos Indian Agency that he entered a few weeks earlier.
He said he then threw the remaining strips of flesh away,
knowing that they would most likely be found if he walked into the agency with them.
He also figured an animal would eat it, so he didn't think anything of throwing it right there.
Which is not funny, haha, but it's dumb because that's exactly where those hunters found it.
You know what I mean?
You were also looking for animals, which is interesting.
As much as Alfred tried to claim he ingested human flesh for survival,
he did also claim around this time that he had grown quite fond of it
and found the portion around the breast area to be especially delicious.
Eww.
And now I can't think of the word delicious anymore.
That's so disgusting.
Again, okay, I'm interested. Are we gonna know the truth?
So there's a lot of differing stories, but I'm gonna give you all of them.
We essentially know most of the truth, I will say, based on evidence and stuff.
We'll just have to keep going and then we'll discuss it later, I guess.
Okay.
So hearing all of this, Oliver, Loutz and Heizer became enraged,
but General Adams would calm him down, stating that they needed this detail in a confession to put Alfred away.
Yeah.
General Adams would immediately call for a conference among the five men and the agency officers
to determine what they should do moving forward.
It was decided after this conversation that a search party be assembled at once to find the men's remains.
After all, this is all circumstantial up until this point,
and they needed hard evidence to make sure that what Alfred was saying was the truth.
That's true. He could just be lying because he's, you know, he's crazy.
Because he's Christ.
The men from the original group of miners claimed that they did not believe one part of Alfred's story,
the part about Shannon attempting to attack Alfred when it was just the two of them left.
They all stated that Shannon was the kind of man who would lay down his life for another if he thought it was necessary.
And not the other way around.
Yeah.
General Adams asked the two men who found the human flesh if they knew of an area next to the lake that Alfred described.
They said that such a place did exist, but it was approximately 50 miles away across the hills.
What?
Well, it does make sense because Alfred's not claiming that he was like the next day at the agency.
You know, it was like, it could have been that far away because he was like,
I did the rest of my journey to get here.
Yeah.
He didn't say like, and then I just turned up here, you know.
But what I'm saying is like, that's not even the halfway point.
You know what I'm saying?
That's true because it was 75 miles.
It's 75 miles and they were supposed to have at least two weeks worth of food.
That's true.
Apparently.
Interesting little sleuth over here.
The search party was led by agency clerk Herman Lautner and also consisted of the five miners from Utah,
a few agency officers, and Alfred acting as a guide.
Oh my God.
Why?
Tell me he doesn't have a hatchet right now.
Well, he just, he just came from there, I guess.
So realistically, he probably does know the way back.
It's like, oh yeah, I'm the guide.
Just go ahead and pick up that firewood over there.
Oh, mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Those men better watch their backs.
After two weeks of travel, the party was reaching the area of the Lake Fork of the Gunnison River.
Of Lake Fork, excuse me, I said of the Lake Fork.
However, at this point, Alfred claimed that he was lost and that the area didn't look like what he remembered.
Well, that checks.
So, yeah.
Oliver called Alfred a liar and a murderer and insisted that he be hanged right then and there for his crimes.
Again, this is like old timey, like, you liar, thief, scoundrel.
A rogue scoundrel came into the village and got hands on my horse and buggy.
My horse and buggy.
You'd be hard to get at the end.
Oh my god.
Such a good TikTok.
Sorry.
This, of course, would not happen because of legal proceedings, but nothing would be found as well and the group would just head back to the Los Pinos Indian Agency.
However, along the trip back, Alfred was most likely considering his options and at one point, he would attempt to murder Herman Lautner with a large knife that he had concealed in his clothing.
Alfred would be caught in the act, restrained, and immediately arrested.
He just starts gnawing on his leg.
I need it.
The funny thing is that General Adams had been willing to believe Alfred, but the unprovoked attempt at Herman's life was enough to show Adams that Alfred was dangerous.
Yeah.
He would subsequently be transported back to Shawash, so watch, excuse me, and put in a jail outside the town for his own protection.
Bitch, let him get murdered.
Stoned.
Stoned him.
Let's just throw potatoes, put him in a stockade.
I'm sorry, not potatoes, just tomato.
Ow, just raw potatoes.
That would have hurt.
It would fucking hurt.
While Alfred was detained, he would retract what he told the men at the agency occurred, leading up to the men he traveled with losing their lives.
He was now claiming that all the men had encountered a strong blizzard along their way through the mountains.
He said that the snow fell so heavily and persistently that they all became lost and were now unable to retrace their steps back to where they came from.
It's like this whole new story.
Yeah.
On top of this, he now claimed, supplies were dwindling and quickly ran out.
The group had also run out of matches and were forced to carry hot embers in a coffee pot as means to have light and fire.
He stated that days went by with no signs of animals and attempts at ice fishing ultimately failed.
Alfred now claimed that the group cooked and ate their shoes in an attempt to survive, and once their options ran out, they all agreed on a pact.
In this pact, the men agreed that if one of them were to die, they were okay with the others consuming their flesh in order to survive.
That makes a little more sense, honestly.
Yeah.
Alfred claimed that after days of hiking with no animals around, Israel swan ultimately became so fatigued that he could go no further.
The group would find an area next to a lake at this point and set up camp to rest for a while.
Alfred stated that a short while after this, Israel died of a combination of hunger and exposure.
Alfred wanted at this point to give a written confession to this claim.
Old man Swan died first and was eaten by the other five persons about 10 days out of camp. Four or five days afterwards, Humphreys died and was also eaten. He had about $133.
I found the pocketbook and took the money.
Sometime afterwards, while I was carrying wood, the butcher was killed, as the other two told me accidentally, and he was also eaten.
Belle shot California with Swan's gun and I killed Belle, shot him. I covered up the remains and took a large piece along.
Then traveled 14 days into the agency.
Belle wanted to kill me with his rifle, struck a tree, and broke his gun.
So like what? So it's like now he has this whole story leading up that all of the men, no it's okay that they were eaten because they were cool with it.
Yeah.
They killed Shannon, you know, and then I just took a large, and then now he's saying it took him 14 days after this point to get there.
How far under the journey were you?
Right.
Because you said the whole journey was supposed to take 14 days.
Yeah.
Weird.
No, I think that he probably methodically killed each and every one of them all at the same time.
Okay.
So later on, Alfred would give yet another amended version of his story in which he stated that the men endured almost 20 days into their journey in which the last 10 days they did not eat at all.
He then stated that James Humphrey had also died of exposure due to the cold and that George Noon was killed days later by Shannon Belle for the sole purpose of food.
Which is an Abe, but I get your story straight.
Right.
Like jeez.
Then it was down to just himself and Shannon.
He claimed now that he and Shannon agreed that they would stand together until the end, swearing not to kill or eat each other.
In this part of the confession, Alfred said that days went by and Shannon could no longer take the hunger and attempted to kill Alfred, causing Alfred to shoot him in self-defense.
He would then confess to taking valuables of the deceased members of the group, claiming they no longer needed them, but made no specific statements about the items taken or the amount they added up to monetarily.
Well, he probably didn't keep track.
He just was spending it all.
With Alfred in custody and the search bringing nothing thus far, authorities would continue to search for a while.
Alfred in jail, awaiting, I guess, them finding something.
The following August of 1874, the initial crime scene was discovered by one John A. Randolph, an illustrator who worked for Harper's Weekly magazine.
He would come across the corpses of all five men, Shannon Bell, James Humphrey, Frank Miller, George Noon, and Israel Swan.
So clearly Shannon didn't leave that area.
He was like, oh, we were able to walk a little bit and then no.
He was saying that they were killed days apart too, so why were they in the same area and with the dead body of someone else the whole time?
Exactly.
The bodies of the men would be found at the foot of Slumgill in Pass, two miles southeast of Lake City, Colorado.
This spot of discovery was in a shady area by a lake.
Ooh, so he didn't lie about that.
He didn't lie about the lake.
The bodies lay above the lake fork of the Gunnison River, which is now known as Dead Man's Gulch.
This place matched the exact description of where Alfred originally claimed that only Shannon had met his fateful end.
Upon this discovery, it was noted that the place the men died was within walking distance of the nearby city of Lake Fork.
So just relatively close to civilization.
Yeah, like where they'd be fine.
Instead of leading the men there, Alfred claimed that he did not know that anything was around at the time.
Like he told the men, like, oh, I think we're lost.
But he's such a good guide.
The bodies had been covered in snow, giving way for them to not be discovered for four months.
John Randolph would actually sketch the scene as found, and this image can be found online.
What?
It's black and white.
It's like, obviously it's a drawing, but yeah.
I want to look at it.
Well, don't, hold on.
Don't look it up yet, because you're going to give things away.
Oh.
The story of the discovery of the bodies would be covered two months later in October of 1874 via the newspaper.
The local coroner and authorities would create a task force, including 20 volunteers to examine the crime scene.
First responders at the time noted it had appeared that, quote, extreme violence and, quote, had been bestowed upon the men, excuse me.
Frank Miller's head was actually missing entirely from the campsite, and he and Israel Swan's corpses had been a little more than just scattered bones.
The bodies of George Noon and James Humphrey were largely flayed, but it was known that they both received massive blows to the head, and their bodies had noticeably other broken bones.
So it's not like just like, oh, without a survival, I had to.
This is like, he murdered these people, like brutally.
Yes.
I was just going to say, yeah, essentially the way the corpses were discovered, it was clear that they were brutally murdered, torn apart, and not treated with grace at all in life or in death.
Which is awful.
Of course, the area and condition in which the bodies were found completely contradicted all of Alfred's statements.
The theory quickly became that Alfred killed all of the men before the supplies ran out in order to rob them of their weapons, money, etc.
Then, Alfred got snowed in, having to live on his own in a makeshift shelter for months and surviving off the flesh of his companions.
Preston Nutter would accompany authorities to the site of the bodies, and would identify the corpses as being those of the men he once knew in life.
The remains of the men would subsequently be buried near the site of their deaths, and the search party would return to Alfred's jail cell to confront him, only to find him missing.
What?
If I wasn't clear earlier, Alfred was detained in a makeshift jail of sorts in order to protect him from other inmates, but also because authorities wanted to keep a close eye on him.
So he was essentially isolated.
Well, clearly they did their job very well.
Right.
Unfortunately, this didn't work, and he would be gone upon the discovery of the remains.
I mean, he had time, right?
They didn't find them for months.
Yeah, there was nobody there watching him?
Nope.
And there wasn't sufficient security because of how long it took to keep Alfred under wraps.
On top of this, it was noted that So watch County authorities were not thrilled about taxpayer dollars that were going to keeping him in jail, considering there was no real evidence to keep him behind bars.
And Alfred would allegedly be given tools that actually helped him escape by like someone within.
Great.
Yeah.
And even more, a lot of the people of So watch were not entirely convinced that Alfred was guilty of anything, especially not of murder.
They were like, he's just weird on these rich.
Yes.
Although there were people that did think that he was a murderer and a cannibal, and his life would constantly be threatened by townspeople due to this.
All of these things would later play into the reason why he was essentially assisted in his escape.
I don't know if they're like, let him loose and the townspeople will take care of him or they're like, oh, he really didn't do anything, but you know, either way.
However, if someone did help him, Alfred would never confess who helped him or if anybody did.
Theories among the townspeople would run rampant at this point with some people believing that he had simply overstated his qualifications of being a guide that knew the mountains in Colorado.
Others would think that it was premeditated and he knew all along that he was going to lead the men in his group to peril and rob them of their possessions and murder them all along.
Yeah, I wonder if he had any hand of picking who was actually going to go with him.
Right.
I think it was just the people that were willing to like believe that he knew the route.
Yeah.
The cannibalism part of his charges, although shocking, were not really the issue of people in the area.
People around the time were familiar with other groups of people in the past that were forced to do this and, you know, resort to this fate.
Furthermore, there would be many groups in the coming years that would have to resort to this as well, considering, again, the times and conditions.
Unfortunately, during this time in human existence, it was not super uncommon for groups of people that were traveling by foot or horse to end up having to cannibalize some members in order to arrive safely.
Which is wild.
Additionally, cannibalism at this time was not illegal per se in the United States, unless one committed murder with a sole intent to commit cannibalism.
Unfortunately, not only this area of the states, but many others would see acts of necessary cannibalism in the next few years following this.
On March 11, 1883, an outlarge Alfred would be discovered by one Jean-Frenchie Cabazon and Cheyenne Wyoming.
He was living under the alias of Jean Schwartz, which would also be the name of one of the original miners that was in the group.
So he just like stole someone else's name, like just pretended to be him.
I'm just that guy, yeah.
Jean Cabazon was actually a member of the original party himself and decided to stay put in the camp while the other members took off during the winter.
So he stayed till April.
And he would later safely make his way to their destination with Bog McGrew and Preston Nutter's party.
Jean would encounter Alfred by happenstance when Alfred approached him looking to buy some supplies.
He didn't even fucking remember him.
Or maybe he did remember him, but he was just like, what's up dude?
He's like, I'm Schwartz now.
Yeah, exactly.
He stole his identity.
Jean would immediately report Alfred to local authorities who would apprehend him and immediately call General Adams.
Adams would subsequently be summoned to Cheyenne where he correctly identified Alfred's identity and accompanied him by train to Denver, Colorado.
It's also got to suck though back then because it was just eyewitness testimony.
Right.
It's not like there's no form of documentation or identification whatsoever.
No fingerprint, no DNA testing, no nothing.
No photos.
Literally just a guy going on like, yeah, I've met you before, but you went by this name.
Yes.
And that's it.
And then you're like, is he telling the truth or not?
Yeah.
Am I being framed for murder right now?
That's so scary.
So once in Denver, Alfred would give his second confession signed on March 16th, 1883.
Alfred stated that his main reason for fleeing was out of fear of the town of Sewatch coming for him.
With potatoes.
Yeah, with potatoes in the sack.
Following this, Alfred was now claiming that the men did not die gradually and Shannon had actually been the one that killed everybody else before he had to kill Shannon to stop him.
You're already going to go to jail for the rest of your life.
Right, it's so annoying.
Well, probably not jail, let's be honest.
This is the late 1800s, but you know, you're already going to go down for it.
What does it matter if you confess?
Right, he's already fucked.
Alfred now claimed that Shannon told him to go scouting for any way out of the mountains and to find some food for the two of them.
Alfred told General Adams, quote,
I found the redheaded man, which is Shannon, who acted crazy in the morning sitting near the fire roasting a piece of meat, which he had cut off the leg of the German butcher.
The latter's body was lying the furthest off from the fire down the stream.
His skull was crushed in with the hatchet.
The other three were lying near the fire.
They were cut in the forehead with the hatchet.
Some had two or three cuts.
I came within a rod of the fire when the man saw me.
He got up with his hatchet towards me when I shot him sideways through the belly.
He fell on his face.
The hatchet fell forwards.
I grabbed it and hit him on the top of the head and quote.
It's just funny the way they phrase things.
That's what I'm saying.
If you said it in a British accent, they would be like,
I came within a rod's length of a fire.
I shot him in the belly.
Belly is hilarious for a grown-ass man to say.
The belly.
Oh, jeez.
Oh, no.
Alfred went on to further explain that in the moment of him shooting Shannon and going for the hatchet,
Alfred dropped his revolver in the deep, powdered snow and ultimately lost it.
He claimed he then made himself a makeshift shelter out of logs to fight the snow.
Then he said a huge storm set in and he was there for hours waiting it out.
Alfred now claimed that he found himself starving and he knew that he needed to eat something or risk dying himself.
He stated about this quote.
I went back to the fire, covered the men up and fetched to the camp the piece of meat that was near the fire.
I made a new fire near my camp and cooked the piece of meat and ate it.
I tried to get away every day but could not, so I lived off the flesh of these men, the bigger part of 60 days, end quote.
So it was fucking 14 days, then it was 20 and now it's a whole fucking two months, which I guess it was two months, in reality.
But also it's like, in this confession, he's like, well, Shannon had cut that piece of meat and he was getting ready to eat it
and then he tried to kill me and I killed him and then I'm like, ooh, withering away to nothing.
So that meat was already cut, so I might as well just eat it.
I might as well just eat it because he already prepared it.
And then yeah, and then he's like, oh, after I ate it, then I had no choice but to continue to do that.
It's just, doesn't make sense.
And like, why wouldn't you, I mean, I understand that you feel like you're trapped.
Clearly, he was near another town and you're telling me he didn't go try to seek help?
Yeah, I don't think he wanted to.
I think that he, well, I don't know.
I don't know what his plan was, but he knew that, I feel like he knew that town was there.
I feel like he knew that the town was there and that's what I mean.
Like, I feel like if it was this, oh, it was in self-defense, like, I need to tell someone that.
It was, instead of that, it was, well, I'm just gonna live here for a while
and then come up with a really great story.
Yeah.
And maybe the bodies will be decomposed by then or whatever it is.
Or he's like, oh, it's been long enough.
You know, no one's gonna care if they got, they went missing.
Like, clearly it's been long enough and I'm the sole survivor.
Oh my God, it's a miracle.
I made it out alive.
Exactly.
Yeah.
General Adams asked Alfred why he had not told this version of the story nine years earlier when he originally had the chance to confess.
Alfred responded to this quote, I was excited.
I wanted to say something and the story, as I told it, came first to my mind.
And I don't think he means excited, like, excited.
I think he means like, nervous.
Yeah.
I think that maybe he was a little excited when he talked about breast meat.
And so, that's a good point.
I mean, why would you say that if you didn't like it?
Especially delicious.
That doesn't make you edgy.
Yeah.
Like, oh, you're the cool guy that likes human breast meat.
Delicious.
Due to this statement, it was the agreement of the prosecution and a later trial that the only logical reason for Alfred to have attempted such a journey through the mountains was for the sole intention of leading the men into the wilderness to both rob and kill them.
Yes.
At the time of the trial, it was reported by the family of Israel Swan that he had left to go on this expedition with around $6,000, about $160,000 today in cash and gold.
Wow.
The family stated that he also had a very valuable Winchester rifle with him, which would give somebody else a strong motivation for murder.
And again, we have to remember that this was a different time and it was probably pretty rare for people to have really nice things like that.
It's true, yeah.
Israel was also the same-year-old age of 65 at this time, giving way for a 30-ish-year-old Alfred to think that it was an easy task to dispose of him.
Considering the harsh terrain and the blistering cold, it's easy to assume that Alfred thought that it would make sense to everybody if Israel simply perished during the journey.
According to the Swan family, the other four members of the group may have been complicit in his murder and later be traded by Alfred or were murdered as well simply for being witnesses to this crime.
Yeah.
Something that seemed strange to them, however, was that Alfred was not found with any gold on him, just money.
And I think that might have been because it was like, well, his family definitely knows that he had gold.
This money could have come from anywhere.
That's true.
It could have been a really corroborating piece of evidence.
Yeah, that's true.
Or if he had gold on him, he might have to come up with another story as to how he obtained the gold if it wasn't proven that it was Israel's.
It could have been like, oh, where'd you get that gold?
It's like, oh, well, I made it to the mount and all here and I mined it.
Then it would have to be like a whole other story.
Right, right.
On April 6th, 1883, Alfred's trial would begin in Lake City, which is funny because it's the city that was right there.
It was presumed that Israel Swan's death had occurred on or around March 1st, 1874, and it was also determined that the others appeared to be killed in their sleep.
Among those who testified on the behalf of the prosecution, Otto Mears, Larry Dolan, Oliver D. Lautzenheiser, and Preston Nutter.
After seven long days of testimonies and examinations, Alfred Packer would be found guilty of the premeditated murder of Israel Swan.
Well, good.
Should be premeditated.
Right.
According to a local newspaper, the presiding judge, M. B. Jerry, stated, quote, and please bear with me because this is a lot of like shorthand like slaying from this time.
Okay.
Quote.
Are you gonna do the accent?
I'm gonna try.
Okay.
Stand up, you voracious man, eatin' son of a bitch and receive your sentence.
Sounds Irish.
Man eatin' son of a bitch.
The judge said that?
Yes.
That's cool.
I'm just gonna say it normally.
It's like an old country croc accent.
It's like you work at the fucking...
Accidentally Irish.
Like you work at the...what is that?
County...what is that?
Cracker Barrel.
Oh.
Like you work at a cracker barrel.
Barrel.
Okay.
So, stand up, you voracious man, eatin' son of a bitch and receive your sentence.
When you came to Hinsdow County, there were seven Democrats, but you, you ate five of them.
God damn ya.
I sentenced you to be hanged by the neck until you're dead, dead, dead, as a warning, agent, reduction, and democratic population of this county.
Dude, I can't help but do a country accent.
Quote.
Packer.
So, Packer.
Fuck, okay.
Packer, your Republican cannibal...Republican cannibal, I would sentence you to hell, but the statutes forbid it.
End quote.
That was hard to get through.
That is hard.
Do you want to know the translated version?
Like the modern day version of that sentence?
Cause I have that too.
Oh yeah.
I probably could have read that.
Do you have it?
Yes.
Quote.
Alfred Packer, the judgment of this court is that you be removed from Hinsdow County and they're confined until the 19th day of May, AD, 1883.
And that on said 19th day of May, 1883, you be taken from thence by the sheriff of Hinsdow County to a place of execution prepared for this purpose at some point within the corporate limits of the town of Lake City in the said county of Hinsdale and between the hours of 10 a.m.
and 3 p.m. of said day, you then and there by said sheriff be hung by the neck until you are dead, dead, dead, and may God have mercy upon your soul.
End quote.
That was also more, of course, included in that.
Yeah, but that definitely sounds like something you might hear or similar to something that you might hear in a regular court today.
Yes.
But I like the other version.
Oh yeah, I know.
I love that.
Man, eatin' man.
Son of a bitch.
Son of a bitch is like one word.
Like there's no space.
Son of a bitch.
Very interesting.
Thanks for bearing with me.
So just to reiterate, Alfred was sentenced to death by hanging on May 19th, 1883, which just to put into perspective was almost 141 years ago.
That's incredible.
Well, it will be this May, but yeah, 141 years ago.
Alfred would actually be spared the death penalty for this crime when his lawyers discovered that the books on the death penalty had been repealed and replaced with what was known as a savings clause.
I don't really know much about this.
I didn't really look into it, but essentially it was like a technicality.
So it saved him from being on the death penalty.
Wow.
In October of 1885, Alfred's sentence would be reversed by the Colorado Supreme Court being based on an ex-post facto law.
Essentially what this meant was that the crime was committed, the crime that was committed was done during a time when it was not actually illegal.
Oh, like the cannibalism and all that?
Yes.
So this ex-facto law stated that the government could not sentence a man to death for committing a crime if it had occurred before Colorado officially became a state as opposed to a territory.
So it wasn't about cannibalism, it was about state laws.
Exactly.
Interesting.
However, being that Alfred's murder charge and scheduled execution had been overturned, it did not spare him from culpability for the men's deaths.
A second trial would be held in Gunnison following a change of venue for Alfred's hearing that was also granted per the Colorado Supreme Court.
On top of this, a new judge of a Republican party was now presiding, making it essentially impossible for Alfred and his counsel to receive a fair and unbiased trial.
There's a lot of, like, back and forth with this.
Regardless, after a quick trial on June 8th, 1886, Alfred Packer would be convicted of five counts of voluntary manslaughter and subsequently sentenced to 40 years in prison.
This means he was sentenced to eight years per count, which was the maximum sentence allowed at the time.
Eight?
Eight years.
Permitted.
Permitted?
Multiple homicide.
Whoa.
At the time, this was the longest sentence in US history.
40 years.
Like, he was like a baddie.
Yeah.
Like, he was the baddest of the bad.
He was the one, yeah.
At the time of his sentencing, it came out that local hunters and officials had made statements that, although the winter of 1874 was harsh, in fact, the worst they'd encountered for some time, the level of active game was plenty active for the area.
So he was trying to say, like, couldn't find animals for days on end.
They couldn't find anything, like, at all.
And hunters were like, this is the most money I've made in a year.
They went further to mention that there was even a report of a carcass of a deer that was found near where the bodies were found.
Just untouched.
This being the case, it clearly significantly counteracted Alfred's claims that the area was missing animals that could have been crucial to the survival of the group.
Yeah.
I guess it wouldn't be over-hunted because it was kind of a rural territory.
Yeah, right.
And there's probably not a lot of people that are willing to go out in that weather.
Yeah.
Furthermore, it came out from the locals that the snow in the area that Alfred insisted on trekking during this time was known to have exceeded more than six feet of snow in a single downfall, paired with extreme winds and freezing temperatures.
Of course, this couldn't really have been known to Alfred because he didn't know the area, but it's still significant.
It was almost like he was like, okay, I can survive this, but I don't think these men can.
And it's going to give me an upper hand if I put them through this treacherous hike or whatever.
So I'm thinking he lured those guys out there.
He murdered them.
He stayed at the city he knew about, or the town he knew about, and then would just go out there periodically and eat them.
That's a good actually opinion.
Yeah, I didn't even think it like that, but that might be...
Oh, shit.
Well, I mean, I'm sure that they... I'm sure at the time some locals might have said, oh, I've seen this man or I haven't seen this man.
That's true.
Yeah.
But I mean...
But again, I witness.
It's all here to say.
I witness.
Also, the fact that there was a clear route given to the men by someone that definitely knew the area, being Chief O'Rei, was a big flag for the locals and officials that were part of the case.
On top of this, the route that he had told the men that would take a shorter time was in fact not correct.
That is not correct.
Traveling through the mountains would have actually taken the exact same amount of time that the other group would have taken.
It was just probably not as traveled.
Yeah.
The road less traveled.
Yeah, he was all Robert Frost about it.
And yeah, I mean, less prying eyes so he could...
No murder.
For sure. He wanted them isolated, for sure.
Alfred stupidly would take the stand in his own defense and he would continually state what happened and the first version of events actually took place.
He would additionally make a request that he be charged the 40 years he was given, but solely for the death of Shannon Bell, who is the only man that I killed.
Oh, you get eight years instead.
No, he's like, you can still give me 40 years.
Yeah.
But it better be fucking on paper that I'm only committed one murder.
Like, who the fuck cares?
You'll be dead before you get out. Be quiet.
Right.
This request would be denied and Alfred would be sent to serve out his sentence at the Canyon City Penitentiary.
Alfred would remain here until April 23rd of 1907.
On this day, Alfred Packer would die at the age of 65 in Deer Creek, Jefferson County, Colorado.
The cause of his death would be written down as, quote, dementia, trouble and worry, end quote.
However, the clinical cause of death has been described as a stroke.
It was like whatever.
It was the black bile once again.
The lung.
The lungs, yes.
So Alfred would originally be buried in Littleton, Colorado with a grave marker that would be stolen.
Littleton, Colorado?
Yeah.
That's where Columbine is.
Is it?
Littleton, Colorado?
Oh, you're right.
This stands today. The gravestone is a veteran's tombstone listing his original serving date, because again, the first one was stolen.
Interesting.
In 1973, the Littleton Cemetery Association would cement over Alfred's grave due to the fact that it would be continually dug up and disturbed.
Despite the cemetery's belief that Alfred's body is intact, claims have been made by one Edward Meyer,
the vice president of exhibits and archives for the Ripley's Believe or Not Museum,
that they have Alfred's dissected skull in their possession.
What?
They stated they got a hold of it after purchasing it from an anonymous seller for $20,000.
$20,000?
I'm sorry. This man is a legend, a myth, and you're going to sell it.
In the 70s or whatever.
I know, but still, $20,000 is not a lot of money.
The skull has not been confirmed to be that of Alfred's.
However, as of 2008, the skull is reported to be at the Ripley's Believe or Not Museum in San Antonio, Texas.
No.
Yeah, and I went there not that long ago with Casey, and I probably saw the skull and didn't even know the story.
Yeah.
Let's go take pictures of the skull.
Oh, it's expensive, though, the museum.
It is?
It's $60 a person.
Is it really?
Yeah.
That's lame.
But we went and it was a lot of fun.
We spent hours in there.
Oh, well, that's cool.
It might be worth it.
I haven't been there since a very, very, very long time ago.
Yeah, no, it's a lot of fun.
We should go.
Interesting.
We should go.
Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?
I didn't know that.
Okay, there's something even crazier, and I'm going to get to it.
Okay.
Well, the second thing I was going to say was Alfred was widely rumored to have become a vegetarian before his death.
Just saying.
Yeah, right.
It was a dietary restriction.
For sure.
Couldn't eat people anymore.
God, that's awful.
On July 17th, 1989, 115 years after Alfred consumed his friends, an exhumation of all five bodies would begin by a professor of law called James E. Starrs.
This professor specialized in forensic science at George Washington University.
Starrs and his colleagues would state following this and about the cannibalism, quote,
I don't think there will ever be any way to scientifically demonstrate cannibalism.
Cannibalism per se is the ingestion of human flesh.
So you'd have to have a picture of the guy actually eating, end quote.
Oh.
Which is really kind of gross.
But it's true.
I mean, yeah.
I mean, you digest that out.
By the time he was tried, there wouldn't have been any DNA even in his stomach.
You know what I mean?
So like, how do you do it?
Yeah.
I mean, I know.
The intent behind the exhumations were not to determine if Alfred had cannibalized his friends, but to try and prove that he had murdered them.
The evidence uncovered did confirm the belief that Alfred killed his group members.
The men would be reburied properly following these exhumations.
And I think they had like funeral proceedings and everything too.
So this was like, like 100 years later?
Yeah.
Like 115 years or something.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
Many people have gone back through the evidence of the crimes and determined that Alfred did in fact murder the men.
But the story in which it played out has widely been differing.
That's why earlier when you asked, I was like, I don't know what really happened.
Yeah.
But it essentially has been confirmed with evidence that he did it.
Yeah.
But we don't know.
We can't confirm cannibalism, but we can confirm that he murdered them.
Yeah.
In lighter news, because that was a really heavy.
In 1968, students at the University of Colorado Boulder would create a new cafeteria type grill and name it Alfred G. Packer Memorial Grill.
Oh my God.
With the catchy slogan, quote, have a friend for lunch and...
No.
Among items on this menu were the El Cannibal Beef Burger.
The restaurant still exists today.
No, it doesn't.
Under the new name Alfred Packer Restaurant and Grill, and we're going when we go to Denver.
Oh my God.
I swear we have to go to...
Where is it at?
In Boulder.
And we're going to Boulder anyway.
Oh my God.
I was so excited when I saw that.
I was like, oh my God.
We know what we're doing for lunch.
No, but here's the thing.
It's only open like three days a week, because I think it's definitely like a touristy thing or it's like whatever.
And it's only open like Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday from like 10 to 7 or something.
But isn't that wild that that still exists?
They got a lot of shit for it.
That is bizarre.
I'm sure.
Yeah.
Have a friend for lunch.
Did you look at their menu?
Do they have ribs?
I actually didn't look at their menu because, to be honest, I was typing this really fast before we sat down because I was trying to finish it and I didn't get a chance.
Ribs?
Thy.
Yeah.
Hamburger steak?
Hamburger steak.
It looks like brain.
Ew.
Well, anyway, so cannibalism, right?
We don't really talk about it very often on the podcast.
That's the whole story.
But just really quickly, I just want to pepper in the psychological effects of cannibalism.
The most common consequence of consuming the flesh of the same species is what's known as Kuru.
It's also been dubbed Mad Cow Disease in the past.
It's an incurable and fatal neurological disease that causes the person suffering to experience many symptoms such as tremors, uncontrollable laughter, the inability to walk, and several other very terrible symptoms.
There's like stages.
It's almost like rabies where it starts off like kind of middle school and then it gets really bad really fast.
Like if left untreated?
Yes.
That's all I really have about that just because it's kind of a grotesque topic.
But I did want to throw that in there.
And then just something interesting as well that I read is that many scientists believe that because humans had cannibalized in the past, the gene may have been passed along.
And due to this, people today may have an immunity to developing the disease if they engage in cannibalism.
But that also explains, I mean, if he did engage in cannibalism, he was acting a little erratically.
That might be the case.
He had a stroke, which is a brain thing, but that wasn't until many years later.
But that also, the second thing about the scientists thinking there might be like an immunity that also may explain people like Jeffrey Dahmer that did consume people.
And I mean, yeah, he was not sane, but he didn't get this Kuru as far as we know.
Right.
So, yeah.
Well, that reminds me of like Andre Cicatillo too, but that came from like, like you said, like generationally, because he had also claimed that in his family cannibalism was the thing because they were so poor.
Okay.
Yeah.
So yeah, that's interesting though.
But yeah, that's that's the whole case.
It's a freaking doozy.
I thought you were going to say that it was the story of cannibal the musical.
No, but I was going to mention that at the end that there is actually a musical called cannibal the musical.
I didn't write it in here.
But yes, you were right earlier when you said that.
That's what you thought.
Matt Stone and Trey Parker, South Park is based off of Littleton, Colorado is based off of that.
So it's kind of interesting that they would make cannibal the musical.
They're the two people that did South Park.
Yeah, I've actually never even heard of it until I did this case.
Yeah.
I'd like to watch it.
That'd be interesting.
Right.
But yeah, that's all I have for today.
It was a freaking doozy of a case.
I hope you guys enjoyed it.
Especially for it not being a Patreon.
That's a doozy.
Right.
And yeah, I really think that like honestly, I think I would like to go to that cafe or
that grill or whatever if we can when we're up there.
I'm going to get some ribs.
At some point.
Do you have anything else?
No, that's it.
Okay.
Well, thanks for joining us yet again.
And we will see you guys soon with another Patreon.
If you are not on our Patreon and you want to join our lovely Patreon members again, tier
two and three, get that extra bonus episode that'll be coming out within a week of this
episode.
Yeah.
So I have two two episodes essentially in the same week.
Hell yeah.
Big old cases.
I'm starving.
Let's go eat.
Love you.
Bye.
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