Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer, the mental breakdown. Break down.
Having a breakdown.
At this moment right now. Actively having a breakdown.
How's it going? Hi! Hi! How are you doing?
I just came back from a week being out of town and I've been home for like a couple of hours
and you and I really haven't talked a lot. So this is like our first time talking in like a week.
It's so funny too because I was I was riding around the car and I was like,
I miss my sister. And then you come home and like barely even spoken to each other.
Well just having the presence. It was a lot of fun but I was really ready to be home. I was just
in a four person RV which is great but that couch is very uncomfortable to sleep on.
It is. For more than like two days and I was there for like five nights.
But happy to be home. Happy to be here recording for you guys. Thanks again for 50,000 plus downloads.
Super excited about that. I do have just a couple of messages to read but if there's anyone here
for the first time would you like to give them our social media handles?
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Twice a week. Awesome. Yeah. So we do have a good mental breakdown for you guys today but
before we get into that I do just have a couple of messages to read. I haven't you haven't read
these either yet so it's going to be new to you. We do have a new listener of ours that chose to
remain anonymous but they messaged and said hey you two I'm a new listener and I immediately did a
deep dive after like two weeks of casual listening. I listened to you all on my 14 hour drive to
pick up a family member from mental health treatment yesterday. Wow. You're so funny and open-minded
and I really appreciate all of the research and work you do. I've always been a true crime fan
and obviously mental illness slash health topics are close to my heart. So this podcast is such a
perfect fit for me. Also when I realized the two of you are sisters I immediately recommended you
to my sister. Anyway rambly but I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate you all and
all you do. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye. Thanks, Anna. Yeah such a nice message. We just love hearing
from everyone, all of our listeners so it's great to hear how especially the mental health aspect
of the podcast is really affecting people in a positive way. Yes and happy and healthy vibes to
your family member as well. Absolutely. And then we just have another message as well from a listener
Tara. Tara said just found this podcast and I'm obsessed. You two are freaking hilarious. Reminds
me of myself and my sister who I lost in 2016 but still brings a smile to my face. We always said
that's a big old bitch. Which cracks me up. She goes on much love and support from Seattle,
Washington home of the Green River Killer aka Gary Woodridge. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So yeah awesome too.
I responded and said you know Ken is going to Seattle and you know a couple months and
she's really excited about it. It's just cool and especially when people tell us where they're from
I love that because we just we have listeners in places that we don't think we do you know.
Oh my gosh. Yeah we still have imposter syndrome. Thank you all so much for writing
and we really appreciate it. It super brightens our day. Absolutely. Okay are we gonna get into
this mental breakdown? First I think that we should mention the True Crime Paranormal podcast
festival happening in July the 12th through the 14th that's kind of birthday weekend in Denver
Colorado. Get your tickets and use our code DAK pod. Just DAK. Oh just DAK for that 15% off of your
tickets. Yes super super excited about that. It's coming up way faster than we know it. I feel like
we just found out we were invited to 2023's TCPA and now we're almost about to go to our second one
yeah with all of our friends. With our friends. This year we have people we know when we have friends
they're walking into it. So yeah definitely get those tickets and they actually just announced
that there's going to be a almost like a stand-up comedy act there this year which is really cool.
It's a stand-up comedy True Crime. Yeah True Crime's comedy stand-up. Yes. I think it
sounds really interesting. It's gonna be fun. We're definitely gonna have to make time for that.
All right so for this week's mental breakdown we are going to be talking about Phantom Limpain.
Your face is lit up. Shocked. Yes. Okay all right. Phantom Limpain if you don't know what it is
you are in for a good episode informational episode content warning this episode includes talk of
amputation and other disabilities relating to physical pain. If this episode is not for you
we encourage you to find another one of our episodes remember your mental health is very
important and we love you. We love you. Bye. So yes Phantom Limpain I'm gonna say interchangeably
Phantom Limpain and just Phantom Pain just for sake of remedy. Okay. It is defined as a painful
perception that an individual experiences related to a limb or an organ that is not physically part
of the body because it was removed or was never there in the first place. Okay so I've mostly
heard of it described like by amputees. Yes. But organs too that's interesting. Very interesting
and it can be also used interchangeably with terms such as Phantom Eye Pain if your eye were to be
removed. Yes. Phantom Pain is typically reported following the amputation of a limb but may also
occur during the removal of a breast, tongue, or even internal organs such as a kidney.
That's so true yeah now that I think about it yeah that's that makes sense. Yeah. You would feel
like even a breast reduction I've heard that you're like so used to holding your arms a certain
way or something and it's like you're just your body is so used to that feeling yeah you just can
still it's like a residual feeling. Yes definitely. The pain duration sensation and frequency varies
from person to person. The pain can last for seconds hours days or even longer depending on the
situation. While Phantom Lim Pain has been reported to affect an estimated eight out of ten people
who lose a limb it is not to be confused with residual limb pain. Oh okay so that's what I
was saying yeah residual instead of pain yeah. Residual limb pain affects the remaining part
of the limb where the amputation occurred and is usually the result of a medical complication
such as nerve damage or pressure on remaining nerves. I see. So just quickly differentiating the two
residual limb pain is at the site of amputation and Phantom Lim Pain can essentially feel like it's
farther away from that site. I see okay okay. Where the limb used to be. Instead of the nerves at the
base of the amputation. Yes okay. Residual limb pain is estimated to affect seven and ten people
with limb loss so just one less than uh estimated for. You said seven and ten? Yes as opposed to
eight and ten for Phantom Lim Pain. Although the two types of pain are different from each other
it is important for professionals to be able to distinguish which one is which
because treatment plans and or medication will vary depending on the type of pain.
Additionally these two types of pain can also occur at the same time. Oh really? Just keep that in
mind yes. Okay. In the United States 1.7 million people live with limb loss each year and there are
approximately 185,000 new lower extremity amputations that occur each year. Wow. That's just lower
extremity. Yeah. Although amputations have occurred for centuries the first Phantom Pain
sensation was recorded in the 16th century on French military soldier patients. Whoa. This was
first recorded in 1551 by French military surgeon and is it ambrosia? Is that how you say that?
Ambrosia salad. I looked it up and they both spelled the same so yes ambrosia. Sorry I don't
know what with French. He would report that quote for the patients long after the amputation is made
say that they still feel pain in the amputated part end quote. So again that was 1550 Huan.
And it's not to say like things like that didn't exist then but it's just interesting
knowing when the first recorded was. In the 19th century similar symptoms would first become
identified as Phantom Lim Pain. This term was first coined by American neurologist Silas Weir-Mitchell
in 1871. He would describe that quote thousands of spirit limbs were haunting as many good soldiers
ever now and then tormenting them end quote. Fucking heat. Yeah. That what a way to say that.
What a way to describe that because now it's like okay now we know it's like a neurological thing
you know it could be the nervous system but he was like no like haunted limbs. Haunted spirit
lens. Yes. Oh my god. Following an amputation the onset of Phantom Lim Pain most often occurs
soon after surgery. This pain can feel like a variety of things such as twisting itching pressure
or burning. Ow. Which sounds very painful. Following recovery there are many things that
can cause Phantom Lim Pain to reoccur or occur for the first time. These triggers include things
such as simple touch, sexual activity, exposure to cold temperatures, cigarette smoking, changes
in barometric pressure and even simply using the restroom. Well that's all like nerves right?
It's all your nervous system. Exactly. That's interesting. People can be often reluctant to
express that they are experiencing this pain to anybody most likely due to the fear that they
will be seen as crazy. You know that lens not there you know there's no way you could feel it.
Yeah and like but again it's one of those things like how do you convince someone that it's not
in their head. Exactly. Like. However it is much more common than people think and telling one's
primary care provider as soon as it happens is key to getting effective treatment. Hmm. Phantom
Lim Pain is most commonly felt in the parts of the body that are farthest away such as toes and
fingers and less common on amputations of say a leg or an arm although this can occur as well.
Not sure exactly why that is but it's like maybe because it's like you can see it more often because
it's farther away from you. Yeah you have. As opposed to having it maybe on your shoulder.
Right where you don't always it's like you can never not see your nose in the front of your
face. Thanks for that. So is there it just makes you look at it. No I'm gonna look at it by research.
Cross the head. Yeah I think you're right I think because we have such an association of looking
down at our hands when we're doing something that that's probably more prominent in your brain.
It's almost like an out of sight out of mind kind of thing. So what causes Phantom Lim Pain?
And I'm gonna ask everyone to bear with me because there is a lot of medical terminology
coming up and I'm gonna try my hardest to pronounce it correctly. I love when we have
episodes like this because you you're the one that always challenges yourself I'll find another way
to say it. I'm like I can read I can do this. So originally Phantom Pain was thought to occur
due to neuromas located at the amputation site. A neuroma is typically a tumor or a tissue that
develops as a result of amputation. However it seems to be more neurological and having to do
with the nervous system. While experts believe that Phantom Pain results from a mix-up in the
nervous system signals specifically between the spinal cord and brain there are many different
theories of why this occurs. So the first theory we're going to talk about is called peripheral
mechanisms. Okay. Kind of sounds like you know out of sight out of mind if you can see it. Yeah.
It's likely to happen. This theory states that the neuromas formed at the amputation site show
increased sodium expression and because of this an increased activity of fibers is caused. Just
various fibers. These fibers are involved in pain and temperature sensation and can contribute to
Phantom Pain. However it has been noted that the pain decreased once the fibers were able to be
calmed down with blocking agents so this theory is not widely believed to be the full reason behind
Phantom Pain. The next theory is spinal mechanisms. Peripheral and nerve injury can lead to the
degeneration of fibers in the spinal cord and when this happens a different type of fiber can
branch into the same area. If this happens the secondary fibers can be turned into noxious
stimuli. What? So not good. Okay not good. This is kind of hard to explain but essentially if these
types of fibers become noxious it can cause the original ones to do the same and this can lead
to what is known as central sensitization. Central sensitization can affect the nervous system
especially at areas that have had trauma to them. However patients with complete spinal cord injury
have also experienced Phantom Pain so experts theorize that there must be an underlying central
mechanism within the brain. That's very interesting. I know these things are so cool to me. I'm
nerding out over here. So this is like essentially all the reasons why it couldn't be physical but
why it's neurological. Yes or it's like these are like some people believe these theories but then
there's like limitations to the theory like some people are like well no that couldn't be the whole
case because of this. Right. The next theory is called central mechanisms. In much of the 20th
century it was believed that no new central circuits could be formed in the adult brain.
However experiments from the 1980s onward would cast doubt into this thought. In one example of
this functional MRI studies in amputees have shown that almost all patients have experienced
cortical remapping or a new cortical map growing after damage. Something in the brain. I'm not
going to go into explain with that. Oh yeah it makes sense like remapping it's like you're
having to retrain your brain on how to reconfigure like everyday tasks you know like just what you
now know are your capabilities right. Exactly. I hope yeah I hope everyone's following I know
some of these words. I was even when I was reading I was like oh my gosh how am I going to explain
this in like layman's terms. It's like having to learn how to write again or how to speak again.
Exactly. This theory goes further to state that after amputation cortical remapping leads to areas
of the brain formally receiving input from the lost limb now able to be stimulated from the nearby
cortical regions thus phantom pain. So it's like it's trying to connect with that part that's no
longer there and it's like getting essentially like frustrated and hurting. Yeah. A limitation to
this theory however would be that it has been shown mostly in upper extremity amputations and less
in lower ones. It can also be found that the more severe the amputation the higher the amount of
cortical reorganization will occur suggesting that if the amputation was from birth this theory may
not stand. Yeah. Finally the neuro matrix theory is widely accepted as a reason behind phantom pain.
In this theory initially coined by psychologist Ronald Melzak in the 1990s there is an extensive
network connecting the thalamus which is the large mass of gray matter in the central brain
and the cortex which provides direction for the rest of the body as well as the cortex and the
limbic system being linked together. The limbic system is a set of brain structures that surround
either side of the thalamus so they're all kind of in the same area. But underneath essentially
like the top hemispheres so it's within like kind of behind your ocular cavity but more
deeper in. Pretty like yeah pretty centralized in the brain. The main suggestion behind this theory
is that since all of these things are linked and can tell each other how to react to stimuli
there is a genetically predetermined network that will tell the body things that were once there
are still there. This theory goes on to suggest that certain activities associated with pain will
lead to the conscious perception of phantom pain such as maybe boiling water coming towards where
your hand would be and your brain recognizes oh my gosh like that's painful. I burned myself.
Yes. After limb amputation changes to the neuro matrix and neuro signature may be the
cause of the phantom pain localized in the lost limb. Support for this theory is largely due to
studies that show chordonomy failed to treat phantom pains. Chordonomy is a surgical procedure
that essentially blocks certain nerves from receiving signals and therefore should stop
pain from being localized to certain areas like a spinal block or something. So it's essentially
just it's kind of interesting because they're experiencing this pain but the medication they're
taking is kind of for the pain but it's specifically to numb it. Yeah it like tricks the nervous
system into thinking that sorry that nervous like dead so now you can't feel the pain. Yeah and it's
interesting that these are you know like you said blockers but they're pain medication. Yeah it's
kind of interesting. I hope everyone's following me like I said this is this is definitely something
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So limitations to this theory come from its failure to explain why relief from phantom pain
after treatment rarely eliminates it all together and how some people's sensations can
spontaneously end while others will not have phantom pain at all. Yeah. So again those are
the most widely believed theories for why phantom pain exists. That's incredible. We're gonna keep
going. While phantom pain is a clinical diagnosis it is based on the signs and symptoms an individual
describes. This being the case there are no specific laboratory studies or imaging findings
that support its diagnosis. It's essentially like self-reported pain that the doctor just kind of has
to be like okay that sounds like phantom pain. This yeah. However of course the doctor will
perform a thorough exam to make sure this is the case before providing treatment because sometimes
things like residual limb pain or phantom pain can be caused by a misfitted prosthetic or something
like that. When it comes to treatment for phantom pain it is important that the doctor understands
the severity of the pain and the history behind the amputation. One type of treatment that may
seem logical is medication. Doses of pain meds needed usually drop substantially when combined
with other types of treatment but are rarely discontinued completely. So essentially if you
get on medication for it you're probably gonna be on it forever. Really? Yes. So this isn't like
something you can like I don't want to say like seek therapy for but you know like physical therapy
or anything like that. It just depends. It's really a case-to-case basis from what I've read
and you know sometimes it'll spontaneously go away on its own like with no treatment. That's so
interesting. And that's why there's all these different types of treatment because it gives you
a bunch of options to try you know before you have to do you know I'll get to it but essentially
the last resort treatment for it. And I'm sure that in every case is different because the individual
is different. Their life experiences are different. The way that they process things are different
and not only that but probably no two surgeries are exactly the same either. Exactly. So you're
gonna have nerve pain and such as well. For sure. I mean you could even go as far to say as that
having to do with the experience of the doctor you know the doctor could potentially make a
mistake if they're still new to these types of procedures and leave that nerve damage behind.
Yeah. Certain cauterizations all that other stuff as well. So going back to medication,
anti-eleptics such as gabapentin, progabalin and topiramate have shown mixed results in clinical
studies for treating phantom pain. Good job. Thank you. I'm really trying. Trisiclic antidepressants
such as amitriptyline are often used to relieve chronic pain and recently have been used more
often in an attempt to reduce phantom limb pain. I put PLP. Other medications such as ketamine
are thought to work by reversing the process of central synthesization within the spinal cord
and have been proposed as possible preventative for the development of phantom limb pain.
They also give that to cats. Well ketamine is also a drug that people abuse. Yeah. It's like a
horse tranquilizer. Ketamine. Terrible. It's called special K. Special K. Not that I know.
Isn't that like Kellogg's cereal too, right? Isn't that called special K? Yeah. Thanks so.
That's cute. Although the use of ketamine has been shown to reduce phantom limb pain,
memmantine, a similar medication did not provide any benefit to patients. So again,
not really proven to work. Lastly, pain relief may also be achieved through use of opioids
Calcitonin and lidocaine. Woo. Bam. You got it. I did it. Another treatment that may be beneficial
in treating phantom limb pain is what is known as mirror therapy. I'm sure you've heard of this.
I watched Grey's Anatomy too. I was just thinking that Arizona Robins. Yes. This type of therapy
was first invented in the 1990s by neuroscientist Valenia S. Ramachandran. That didn't sound
French. I'm not sure exactly the origin of the name, but it was hard to pronounce. In this type
of therapy, individuals place their opposite intact limb in front of a mirror and voluntarily move
the limb, giving them the visual sight that their absent limb is also moving. This allows for illusions
of movement and touch in a phantom limb by essentially tricking the brain into thinking the limb is
still there. This type of therapy is beneficial for patients who experience phantom limb pain due
to a clenching feeling and not being able to unclench or relax the phantom limb, almost like
Charlie Horst. Yeah. The theory behind this type of phantom limb pain is that the phantom limb feels
paralyzed because there's no feedback from the phantom limb back to the brain to inform it otherwise.
Ramachandran believed that if the brain could receive visual feedback that the phantom limb
had moved, it would become unparalleled, so to speak. Use of mirror theory has been shown to
be effective in some cases, but there's still no widely accepted theory of how it works.
This all got to be psychological. It has to be, right? And that's why I wanted to do this,
because it's not only physical. It is really, I think, psychological. Yeah. In a 2017 study on
mirror therapy, it was reported that patients were able to get relief from phantom limb pain on average
for four weeks following the therapy. However, only about 15 true studies have been done on
mirror therapy since it became known in the 90s. Yeah. So it's really not a lot of information.
That was like yesterday. Yes. What was it? I know. I just like to say it because it makes me feel
better. Yes. Same. Current theories on how mirror therapy works have come from studies
investigating changes in the brain via MRI. However, the mystery still stands as to how it works.
Another type that I'll just pepper in here is called graded motor imagery. It's essentially
the same thing as mirror therapy. I don't really even know the difference. It's just, it's a different
like healing time essentially is what they try to suggest, but this is so new. It's just like
there's not a lot of information on it. Interesting. But I just wanted to pepper that in there.
Pepper that in. The next type of treatment is motor execution with biofeedback. And that doesn't
sound good. It doesn't sound good, but it's actually kind of cool. This is a newer therapeutic
intervention that takes advantage of VR virtual reality. Patients wear VR goggles that allow
them to visualize their phantom limb as intact. They are also able to participate in certain
games or activities such as grasping an object or kicking a ball with their phantom limb. Wow.
During this type of treatment, it is thought that essentially a match between the visual and
somatic sensory systems occurs, which may lead to decreased pain. Numerous case studies have shown
positive outcomes, but the treatment type is still needing much more supporting evidence to back up
its strength. Lastly, deep brain simulation is a surgical technique and used to treat phantom
limb pain. This is typically reserved for when the patient has tried most other options, as this
is clearly an invasive treatment plan. Patients will first undergo PET and MRI scans prior to surgery
to determine approximate trajectory of where the pain is localized. This surgery is carried out
only under a local anesthetic, as the patient needs to be able to provide feedback during surgery.
Oh, hell no. So a wake brain surgery, apparently. Hell no. The doctor would essentially place
stimulatory electrodes in different parts of the brain until the patient says that their pain is at
an all-time low. This is the spot where a permanent electrode would then be placed. Wow. That's
fucking incredible. It's so cool, right? Following this, the patient would be put under general
anesthesia, where the doctor would implant a pulse generator in their chest. Oh my gosh. So from what
I can tell, and if anyone knows, correct me if I'm wrong, from what I can tell, it seems like the
patient is then forward instructed to push on or manipulate that device when they feel pain to
signal the electrode to start working in the brain. Because it's not just all the time. Right.
So pretty crazy. But that's really fucking cool. Yeah. That's, oh my gosh, I said what I said where
I was like, oh hell no. But you know, at the same time, if that's your everyday fucking life, bring
it on. Hell yeah. To get rid of this pain that just doesn't go away. Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.
I think I would do it. I probably would too, as much as I said. Oh, I don't know. I would like,
can you put the video camera out so I can watch you do it? Yeah. Oh no, I wouldn't want to see that.
That's me. So we're different than that. When I get like a tattoo or like my blood drawn or
something, I have to look away and you're like staring at it. I'm like, how do you do that?
I have to. It's more of like a, like a, it is kind of like a mind over matter for me. I think that
as long as I know how something works, I'm less afraid of it. So I definitely, like,
I remember getting some of my teeth drilled when I was like 15 or 16 years old and they tried to
put the mask on me, the laughing gas and stuff. And I felt too weird and I was like, I don't want to
do that. And our doctor at the time was like, well, let me at least numb you with some Novocaine.
I was like, no, just raw dog it. Thank you. I was like, at least let me know like how painful it is.
Then I'll let you know if I can handle it. I don't like that. Yeah, you're weird.
So go in there and just dig around into my brain. In a study on the effectiveness of deep brain
simulation, all patients had pain relief following the surgery. However, while the intensity of pain
decreased by over 50%, it was not eliminated altogether. So those are the available treatment
options thus far. So when it comes to prevalence, phantom limb pain is estimated to be as high as
80% among amputees. It is more commonly observed than adults, with less commonly being seen in
young amputees or people who were born missing limbs. Do you think that's because, well, of course,
like a birth defect would be different. That's how you grow up. And in children, do you think it's
that children are malleable, if that makes sense? They're able to reprogram that part of their brain.
I also think that it has to do with physical development. And a lot of kids experience growth
pains in general. So they might not even recognize it to be that. They might just think it's a normal,
I don't know, like I got growing pains all the time when I was getting older. Not to say that
they're the same thing. But no, but that does make sense, though, that like you're you're just
babies and children are just so resilient. You know, I mean, that's I unfortunately have an
acquaintance of mine that said that her sister got into a really bad car accident, or says she's
only 20. And it's like, she's gonna be okay, you know, she's gonna be able to mend those bones and
still be able to, you know, get a not get over it, but you know, be able to go through the physical
therapy. And I think, yeah, especially when you're in your late 20s or 30s or 40s, it's got to be
way more difficult. For sure. I mean, even at like mid 20s, you know, I had surgery when I was 26,
and it took me shit, almost a year to be able to run. I had hip surgery. It was very minimally
invasive. Yeah. But I was like scared to run for almost a year because I didn't want to hurt myself
because it was like, I feel like it just took that long. Yeah. Also, since like if you're like four
or five, you know, yeah, for sure. And also, I'm sure that kids just don't report symptoms as often
as adults do. And that's why this probably is the case. Kids are always going to want to run around
with the other kids, right? So exactly. Exactly. I've said like 12 times this episode. Sorry, y'all.
Exactly. So studies have shown that there are potential things people can do to prevent
phantom limb pain from occurring in the first place. The first one is pre amputation pain reduction.
This suggests that high pain levels before an amputation are associated with phantom limb pain,
and that focusing on pain management before one's amputation may help reduce the risk. Of course,
this is for planned amputations. You can't plan some of them. Right. Secondly is pre amputation
counseling. This can be helpful in lowering phantom limb pain levels if the patient receives
therapy prior to the amputation. Different types of anesthesia are also linked with lower phantom
limb pain chances. Phantom pain is linked to general anesthesia, and the risk is actually lower
with different types of anesthesia, such as a nerve block. And lastly, depression management after
an amputation or removal of a body part is a way to lower the risk of phantom pain. Unfortunately,
like I said, there are circumstances in which you cannot prepare for an amputation. So these
pre planned things are not necessarily helpful. However, speaking with the professional following
an amputation planned or not is beneficial to one's mental health.
Yeah, I would agree. It's got to be really difficult to go through something like that and then
just kind of deal with these pains or phantom pains on your own. And just, I don't know,
there's got to be a lot of guilt or feelings of inadequacy or feeling like,
you know, I can't speak for somebody's experience. But yeah, just overall, melancholia, honestly,
and just feeling the maze. It's going to be hard to like, again, retrain your brain to do new things.
Mm hmm. Definitely. And I think that this is, I mean, it's very true for everybody, but especially
when an amputation kind of affects one's ability to do what they've done in the past, like let's say
an athlete, you know, our grandfather was a race car driver in his early 20s, and he had a really
bad accident that cost him his arm at the elbow. And as far as I know, he didn't race after that
because of it or? I don't think he really did. I think he maybe he did a few. But he had a very
successful career in HVAC. He did. And he was, you know, crawling around in the attics and stuff with
the prosthetic. He loved the hook. The hook was his favorite. The hook was awesome. He, many,
many years later, they were like, we can give you one with like fingers and shit. And he's like,
hell no. Like, I don't want that. I like the way that this is. I don't want to have to relearn.
Yeah. But what's interesting about that is I was thinking about that, of course, throughout this
episode. And I wish that maybe we had had asked him questions about his experience with any phantom
run pain if he had any. Yeah. You know, it's something that I really knew about until I was,
I mean, honestly, until a couple years ago, I didn't really have experience with that. And it was
just so normal to see our grandpa with a prosthetic that was our everyday life. And I didn't occur to
me to ask questions because there was, in my mind, there wasn't anything missing. Right. And I never
remember ever feeling like that, being like, oh, like, it's strange. You know, it was never strange.
And it would be, yeah, it would be like only when a friend would bring it up. Oh, your grandpa only
has one arm. And I'm like, he does. Oh, shit, I forgot. Yeah, I should have mentioned that
right before he walked in, not knowing how an insensitive prick you are, you know, she's
a piece of shit. Well, yeah, that's mostly phantom pain. The episode is not over yet because I do
have some famous cases of imputes and experiences. I have a question. Absolutely. Before we get into
that, I might have an answer. Or I guess it's more of a thought. How affirming having a prosthetic
could be to somebody experiencing like dysmorphia, like body dysmorphia after losing a limb. And I
wonder if that also helps with with some of that phantom pain as well. Yeah, it's when you get fitted
for a prosthetic. And like you said, it lower half maybe not so much. Like if you were already kind
of a runner, you would already and you had a prosthetic leg that you would be able to start
running eventually. I mean, you have to have PT and stuff and getting known just because that's
something that your body was already used to. Yeah, I think so. I'm not too versed on that topic,
but I will say that maybe the prosthetic might be might be equated to something that someone with
you know, body dysmorphia would do in order to cope. I'm not exactly sure. Yeah. But that's a
good thought though. Saying that the two well, I mean, maybe core morbidly, but yeah, but how
you could probably experience some type of just like you just don't feel like yourself, you know,
if like you said, you were an athlete and you were a runner, how you know, losing a leg may be
hugely challenging to accept and how a prosthetic might help with that dysmorphia a little bit.
Yeah, for sure. And I think that the biggest thing is, I mean, in both instances is just
to seek treatment, seek help, but from a professional because they can help you like walk
you through like what the next steps could be. So again, these are not necessarily cases of phantom
limb pain. But since it's so common amongst amputees, it's not far fetched to think that
these people might have been struggling with it. So this is not necessarily celebrities, but kind of
that have been open with their struggles of amputation or congenital amputation, which is
being born without a limb. So number one is Rick Allen, the drummer of Def Leppard. In 1984,
he was racing his Corvette when he lost control and crashed into a brick wall. The accident
resulted in his entire left arm being amputated, but he would relearn how to drum with one arm and
continue to tour with Def Leppard, which is sick. Still touring. Well, that's what we were saying
just a second ago, you know, someone that I mean, you would drum with both arms, you know,
originally, and then he lost an arm and he's like, fuck it, I'm gonna still drum, you know,
I'm gonna figure this out. This is an absolutely no way shape or form. But did you know that his
Funko Pop has one arm? What? Yeah. That's actually really cool. It's cool. I like that. I was
not saying. Yeah. What a badass. Number two is number two. Number two, the Hatwood Henry. Jerry
Garcia. He would grow up to become a founding member of the Grateful Dead. When he was five
years old, he was helping his older brother, Chop Wood, when he accidentally got his finger in the
way of his brother's axe. He would lose two thirds of his middle finger, but ultimately go on to
become one of the most famous guitar players of his generation. So true. He was also known to
give his fans that middle finger during his shows. LOL. Just a slight fuck you. Yeah. That's funny.
Number three. Number three. Waylon Jennings. This country music legend had his foot amputated
in 2001 following a battle with diabetes. He would continue on tour stating quote,
Music definitely has healing powers. I was sick for a long time and I went back to playing music
and I started getting better as soon as I did. End quote. He would unfortunately pass away the
following year. Number four is Frida Kahlo. Really? What is Frida have amputated? Shortly before her
death at age 47, Frida had experienced complications following a surgery that resulted in her right
leg being amputated below the knee. That one. That's all I have about that one.
Number five is Jim Abbott. Abbott would be born without a right hand, but remarkably would become
an MLB player for the California Angels, New York Yankees, Chicago White Sox, and the Milwaukee
Brewers between 1989 and 1999. We got a bad ass over here. Hell yeah. Number six, Ted Kennedy
Jr. The nephew of John Kennedy was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in his right leg when he was 12.
For those of you who don't know, that's bone cancer and he had his leg amputated as a result.
Number seven and final one is very famous, Bethany Hamilton. She's featured on the movie
Soul Surfer, which is one of my favorite movies. Well, it's about her. She's not actually in it,
but it's a true story about her life. She does it all, ladies and gentlemen.
Bethany was a very big surfer and would unfortunately lose her left arm in a shark attack
when she was just 13 years old. By the time she arrived at the hospital, she had lost over 60%
of her blood volume and was in a hypovolemic shock. Oh my gosh. She would survive and would
go on to continue surfing and win multiple awards. That's incredible. Which is really incredible.
But yeah, that's all I have for today. Very interesting. Thank you. It's a little different
than what we've done in the past, but I think you're on to something. I think that's psychological.
I think there's an aspect to that that has yet to be discovered or studied.
I think so too. Like I said, it's called phantom limb pain. Obviously, it's physical,
but totally psychological in my opinion. And even though it is neurological and nerves,
it doesn't, we don't say just a diagnosis in the middle breakdown. We say, or just something
we think is cool. Or just something we think is cool. Yeah. And of course, we're not medical
professionals. We can't say that necessarily, but... Which is the classic.
Got my finger waving in the air. Yeah.
Whatever. Did you know?
Did you know? Yeah. But I think you're right. I think in some cases therapy works. In some
cases, medication works. In some cases, everyone is different. And that's, it's really incredible.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you guys so much for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this episode.
Yeah. Join us on Thursday for another case and then be looking forward within the next couple
weeks to that extra bonus episode for our tier two and three Patreon members at the end of the month.
Yes. Anything else? That's it. Okay. We will see you next time. All right. Love you. Love you. Bye.
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