Hello! Hello! Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer. I'm Kenna. And I'm Koel.
We're still not 100% but we have the content. We have the content. That's all that matters.
I don't really have anything. I know usually we start out with baby shoutouts or emails or
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Definitely. I am really excited to get into this. I actually wrote this one a number of weeks ago,
so I'm really excited to talk about it because I've been stirring. When you were like dying in
bed. Yes, so I'm sure you have already heard, but my voice is not 100% and I'm doing this episode
today, so y'all are just going to bear with me. I know. Give my voice a rest. Yes, exactly.
Okay, are you ready? I'm excited. I don't think you know this case. I'm gonna... Oh my god, okay.
If you do, I will be surprised. Really? Yes. Okay. So today, we are going to be talking about one
Joseph Edward Duncan. Joseph Duncan. Joe Duncan. Joe Duncan. Joe Duncan. Yeah, I know that guy.
Joey Duncan. Joey Duncan. We go way back. Content warning, this episode contains depictions of
child abuse, sexual assault of minors, abduction and torture of minors, drug addiction, abuse,
and neglect. If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find out one of our episodes.
Remember, your mental health is very important to us and we love you. Love you. Bye. So yes,
Joseph Duncan. Here we go. Joseph Edward Duncan III was born on Fort Bragg Military Base in Fort
Liberty, North Carolina on February 25th, 1963. He would be the fourth of five children born to
Joseph Edward Duncan Jr. and Lillian May Duncan with three older sisters and one younger brother.
Okay. And like a Lillian. Lilith. Lilith. Joseph's father was in the U.S. Army causing the family
to move from city to city frequently within the U.S. but also abroad at some point. The family would
change locations about once every two years until Joseph Jr., the father, would retire the family to
Tacoma, Washington when Joseph III was around 12 years old. Okay. So a lot of really early childhood,
not really available. Not a lot. Yeah, just moving around. Exactly. His mother was actually known as
being very domineering while the children were growing up. Tatl's old this time. Yeah, right.
Domineering mother, you don't say. Yeah. Joseph would claim to have been abused as a child during
this time but his younger brother would later dispute that this happened at all. His brother was
like, you weren't abused. He was, I think he was saying like, we weren't abused. I see. Like as
children. Yeah. But you know, never know. Never know. Seemingly from the beginning of his early
teen years, Joseph started engaging in sex crimes, something that he would continue well onto his
adulthood. At 12? Just early teens. Early teens. Okay. Joseph's first recorded sex crime would come
in 1978 when he was just 15 years old. In this attack, Joseph would subdue and rape a nine-year-old
boy at gunpoint. What? At gunpoint? Yes. That has to be a little quickie. Quickly. Quickly.
Ah, no! I did not. I'm sorry, everyone. Oh, god. Oh, fuck. Damn. I'm so sorry. We had to stop.
We could not stop laughing. I'm crying. We're just hurting my voice more. I know. Okay. Anyways.
So yes, horrible, horrible crime. Not funny. Not funny at all. So the following year, Joseph would
be arrested after stealing a car and sent to the Jesse Dyslin Boys Ranch in Tacoma as a result.
According to a report by the Associated Press, while in the care of the ranch, Joseph told a
therapist assigned to his case that he had bound and sexually assaulted at least six young boys.
During this time? Just in his lifetime. Oh, I see. He opened up to a therapist. I see. He also
stated that he estimated that he had raped 13 younger boys by the time he was 16 years old.
What? Yeah, just horrible immediate sex crimes. That's just... Yeah. I wouldn't say indiscriminate,
but that's a lot. I don't even know what to say. No, it's just like... And here's the thing. I don't
believe that people just sexually assault people out of nowhere. That makes me think he might have
been sexually abused as a kid. That's true. And then we're just very disturbed. Especially after
the first time, he probably found some... Well, clearly found power, gratification out of it,
and he knew he could easily control people and get away with it. Yeah. Around this same time,
Joseph's parents would separate, but would ultimately file for divorce years later in 1983.
Following the divorce, Joseph's older sisters would all leave the home around the same time,
leaving Joseph alone with his mother while his younger brother went to live with the father.
So it's just Joseph and his mom now. Yeah, the domineering mother. Yes.
Joseph would attend Lake's High School, but would ultimately drop out, not graduating.
In 1980, Joseph would steal a number of guns from a neighbor and subsequently abduct a 14-year-old
boy at gunpoint. He's around 17, 18 at this point. He's just a kid. Yeah, absolutely.
That's just... And of course, he probably is one of those people that, because of his age, people
don't consider him a threat. For sure. And also, he abducted a 14-year-old. He's only three or four
years older than this kid. So it's not uncommon for kids around that age to be hanging out or
with that age gap. So it might have just looked innocent if anyone saw one of the gun, obviously,
but then hanging out together. Oh, they're just playing around with those guns, those kids.
Joseph would sexually assault the boy and be arrested shortly after this.
Joseph would be sentenced to 20 years in prison for this crime, but would ultimately be released
on parole after serving just 14 years in 1994. But he was 17 and he still served 14 years.
Yeah. Wow. And that's crazy because it seems like they didn't know about his record. Well,
maybe it was on record with his therapist, but that's all. It could just be hearsay.
It could be fan's proof. Exactly. While out on parole, Joseph was known to have lived several
different places in the Seattle area. He would be arrested yet again in 1996, this time for marijuana
use, and was released on parole several weeks later with new restrictions for his parole,
because he broke parole. Yeah. On July 6, 1996, 11-year-old Sammy Jo White and her
nine-year-old sister Carmen Cubius would disappear after leaving the Crest Motel on Aurora Avenue
North in Seattle shortly before 11 p.m. So it's Sammy Jo and Carmen. The two had left to get
cigarettes from a restaurant for their older brother. I guess they had the hookup because of
the age restriction to going like 18 to get cigarettes actually went into place in 1989.
So I guess they just knew maybe the store owner or something. Yeah. When the girls went missing,
police were unsure whether they were victims of foul play or they had simply run away.
No evidence in this case came up and the girl's case went undeveloped for two years.
On April 4, 1997, 10-year-old Anthony Martinez was playing with his brother and some friends
in a neighbor's yard in Beaumont when he was abducted. Anthony's brother was initially the
target of the abduction, but the brother was able to free himself from the perpetrator with the help
of Anthony, who was taken instead at knife point. Oh no. Cut. Talk about survivor skill. Straight on.
Anthony would be forced into a car and driven away, never to be seen alive again.
Two weeks later, a park ranger would find Anthony's body among rocks and Burdew Canyon on the outskirts
of Joshua Tree National Park. The boy had been bound with duct tape and clearly sexually assaulted.
Although a composite sketch of the subject was made available and a partial fingerprint had
been taken from the duct tape, nothing came of it. Unfortunately, this case would also go cold
following the discovery of Anthony's body. Even with the partial, they didn't have like,
no, they didn't have any records. Results, I don't think, yeah. Joseph would be arrested once again
in Missouri and returned to prison in 1997 after violating the terms of his new parole. Like, this
is now the third time he's been in jail, twice for parole violation. Do you think he's gonna like,
be cool if you just let him out again? No, he seriously, he can't, there's no part of his
brain that tells him to like, regulate himself. Yeah. And after serving 14 years, you'd think he
would have been reformed if he was gonna be, you know. Right. On February 10th, 1998, the remains
of Sammy Jo and Carmen would be found by a transient person living in an abandoned barn
in the North Creek area of Bothel. That's awful. The King County Medical Examiner's office stated
that the girls were most likely killed very soon after they disappeared. Joseph would be released
from his next stint in prison on July 14th of the year 2000 for good behavior, and he would
subsequently move to Fargo, North Dakota. Yeah, he's just such a great guy. On July 3rd, 2004,
so four years later, two young boys would be molested at a playground in Detroit Lakes,
Minnesota, and Joseph would be arrested and charged with these crimes in March of 2005.
Seriously, castrate this guy? No, actually. On April 5th, 2005, Joseph would appear before a
Becker County judge who set bail at $15,000. A Fargo businessman whom Joseph had developed a
relationship with would help him post bail. Following being released, Joseph would stop at
Walmart to buy Night Vision goggles and a video camcorder. Ew. I know. Then he would rent a 2005
Jeep Grand Cherokee on April 15th. On April 27th, Joseph stole a set of license plates from another
vehicle, and a week later on May 4th, the Jeep was reported as a stolen vehicle.
Joseph would skip out on his bail hearing and disappear. Of course. Stealing that guy's money,
by the way. Why doesn't this guy have a fucking ankle monitor all the time? No, he really should.
And a shot collar. Shot collar because away from the zone. On June 1st, 2005, a federal warrant
was issued for Joseph's arrest on the charge of, quote, unlawful flight to avoid prosecution,
end quote. So he left. Joseph was known to have talked about the fact that he was in and out
of prison but would keep committing crimes, stating, quote, I got out and I got even,
but I did not get caught. So I got even again, and again, I did not get caught. I got even twice,
actually more, end quote. So I was literally admitting it. Like, I kept getting out and I
kept committing crimes and getting away with it. I just keep doing it because I can. Because there's,
yeah, because I can and there's no sense of permanency here. Yeah. There's no real punishment.
On May 16th, 2005, authorities would discover the bodies of 40-year-old Brenda Groney,
37-year-old Mark McKenzie, and 13-year-old Slade Groney in their home along Lake Cordelaine in Idaho.
Her name was Slade. Who's the guy? Yes. His name was Slade. Yeah, it's a cool name, right?
That's a cool name, but look what happened to him. He's Slane. Okay. Sorry, I had to pause because
I was shooketh. It's just an unfortunate name for this scenario. I know. So this is,
just to make it a little bit more clear, this is mom and her son and then mom's boyfriend.
Okay. That's all they found. Upon finding these bodies in the home, authorities also shortly
realized that the two younger children of the family, nine-year-old Dylan and eight-year-old Shasta,
were missing. Amber alerts were immediately issued for the two kids and searchers would begin combing
the area for the missing children. So he killed these kids, their family, the rest of the family?
Yes. And kidnapped them, but didn't take the 13-year-old, I guess, because he was too old for
him? Maybe. That's gross. Due to the kids being missing in the look of the scene, law enforcement
would begin investigating the deaths as homicides. Autopsies determined that the cause of death for
all three victims was blunt trauma to the head and all three people had been found bound. Seven
weeks after the abductions of Shasta and Dylan, a break in the case, Shasta had been found. Shasta
has done multiple interviews about the abduction of her and her brother and the murder of her other
family members. The following is from what she has stated about what happened during this time.
The day of the kidnapping, Shasta stated that her mother Brenda came into her and Dylan's room and
woke them up. Brenda stated to the children, quote, someone's in the house, end quote, and the three
of them went into the living room together to meet Shasta's older brother Slade and her mother's
fiance Mark. I said boyfriend earlier, but they were engaged. Shasta saw a man who we now know to
be Joseph Duncan wearing black gloves and holding a gun. Joseph would tie Brenda up with zip ties
and did the same thing to Mark and Slade. Joseph would then take Dylan outside and put him under
a tree before returning to grab Shasta, putting her beside her brother. Once the two were outside,
Shasta stated that she heard multiple thumping noises coming from inside the house, and then
not long afterwards Slade would come stumbling out of the house. As soon as she saw her older
brother Shasta and Dylan were both taken by Joseph and put into the back of the Jeep Cherokee he had
previously stolen. So Slade was still alive essentially when they left? Unfortunately the
three people left in the home would not survive, but Slade was noted as having the strength to get
himself back into the home and was found right beside his mom. Oh, both of the young children
were taken to a secluded location with Joseph where he would repeatedly rape and torture the two
for six weeks. Although the children were still missing, on May 18th a person of interest surfaced
in the case. A 33 year old man by the name of Robert Roy Concrete Bob Lunter or Lunder, his
nickname was Concrete Bob. Concrete Bob, what a name. He was a worker in the concrete and construction
industry. Duh. He was a typist. Yeah. He was known to have a lengthy criminal record and visited the
family on the day of the murders. It was also noted that Robert owed Brenda and Mark nearly
$2,000, giving him a motive to get rid of them. Interesting. Upon hearing that he was a person
of interest, Robert would go to the police and deny having anything to do with the murders and
abductions. He agreed to a polygraph and would pass. As the search continued, the FBI and other
local agencies would join in and a reward of $10,000 would be offered for any information
leading to the safe recoveries of Shasta and Dylan. The case would quickly become the largest
criminal investigation in the history of Kudinai County. Meanwhile, Joseph drove the children to
a campsite where he told them that their mother, future stepfather, and older brother were dead
and they were never going to see them again. That's fucked up because not only have you just
like ripped these children's lives apart, but like you're rubbing it in their face.
So like get a reaction. Yeah, or maybe to give them a sense of hopelessness so that they just
obey. Yeah, that's true. There's nothing to go back for. Go back to his roots. I mean,
you know, the younger kids, you know, that he can control. Yeah. Joseph would unfortunately
waste no time in abusing the children, seemingly taking out his anger. Shasta would later state
about this quote, he got really mad, started throwing things. He took more of his anger out on
Dylan and was really mean to him. He would abuse him and then make me watch. And then if I cried,
he would abuse him worse and quote, that's so fucked up. Oh my God. I know. Joseph was not
only physically assaulting the children, but he would begin playing horrible mind games with them
as well. He would tell them that they would be able to go home if they just complied with his orders.
At one point, Joseph would even have the children write letters to their biological father,
suggesting that they might return home. What for what? Shasta's note was written, quote,
Dear dad, I miss you very much and me and Dylan know what happened to mom, Mark and Slade, and we
both feel very sorry for them. And we both miss you and Jesse in vans and we might see you guys
again. End quote. Of course. Sorry, did he not send those? Yeah, I was just gonna say he would never
send these letters, but tell the kids he did giving them hope instead of releasing them or
giving them hope of being released. Yeah. Shasta would state, quote, he just wanted us to believe
that there was a chance that we would that we would live or that we'd get out safe. I think
after a certain amount of time, Dylan has started to lose hope that it was going to turn out good
for him. End quote. Dylan was very clearly becoming aware of the dark reality of the situation.
Although Dylan was her older brother, Shasta knew that she needed to take on the older sibling role
and help Dylan through. She would later state about this quote, I said, I promise that we're
gonna make it out alive. That was my way of comforting my brother, just letting him know that
we would never stop fighting. End quote. Unfortunately, the torture was far from over for the children.
Joseph would begin forcing drugs and alcohol on them. And when he believed that they were
under the influence, he would tell them horrifying stories about what he had done to other children
in the past. What the fuck? Shasta stated about this quote, he very vividly and in detail described
the murders of two sisters from Seattle, Sammy, Joe and Carmen. Oh my God. He would tell us the
way he had done it, where he had placed their bodies. When he started telling us about the
murders, I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna pretend like I'm drinking this end quote. So she even
had the wherewithal to like pretend that she was drinking the alcohol, but to make sure she was
cognitive. Yeah. Hearing about what this man was capable of, Shasta begins coming up with a plan to
save her and her brother's life. She would begin talking to him in a friendly voice, asking him
questions about himself and generally just trying to gain his trust. She's like, so what do you do
for fun? Exactly. It's like so impressive that at eight years old, she has the wherewithal to be like,
okay, I need to gain his trust. Yeah, she need to be casual. She read him. Yeah, definitely. Shasta
stated about this quote, I would ask questions about his life, ask it about his family, and could
I meet them one day. It was a conscious thing, like I need to make him think that I love him or
that I want to be here with him and quote. At first, it seems to be working and according to Shasta,
Joseph was even beginning to act nicer to the both of them. However, a month after the abductions,
Joseph would begin to be malicious towards the children once again. Joseph had taken notice
of a squirrel that kept her turning to their campsite, and he told the children that if they
could capture the squirrel, he would let them go home. After many tries, Dylan was finally able to
catch the squirrel. So this whole time they've been staying on those campgrounds? Yes. And how
long has it been? It's been a month. Oh my gosh. And they've been essentially tent camping for a
month. Like in the middle of nowhere? Like, yes, it's a very remote area. Okay. Like it's not like
a campsite. I was gonna say, yeah, like a park or something. Yeah, I'm saying campsite, but yeah,
it's definitely like on the outskirts, not a lot of foot traffic or anything. Having new hope that
they were going to be packing up to go home soon, it quickly became apparent that this was not the
plan Joseph had in mind. Shasta states about what happened following this quote, I had just given him
as in Dylan a hug. And so I was holding his hand, and I heard a loud bang. And then I felt my brother's
hand slip from mine. I couldn't even say anything. Like I couldn't scream. I couldn't, I couldn't,
I just didn't even know what to do end quote. Joseph would then shoot Dylan once again. Shasta
states about Joseph following this quote, he came up to me and he was crying and he said it was an
accident. He didn't mean to. I didn't know what the first shot was, but I knew that the second one
was on purpose. He said that he did it so that Dylan wouldn't have to feel pain and quote.
What does that mean? So essentially what Joseph was trying to say was like, I didn't mean to shoot
him the first time, but then after I shot him, like I needed to put him out of his misery. Yeah,
but it's like, why were you pointing the gun towards them? Why did you pull the trigger?
You know, were they like hunting or something? What? Were they like hunting or something? No,
he's just a murderer. Yeah. I mean, there's no world in which he wasn't going to kill these kids.
You know what I mean? So like, I don't fucking buy it. He's just a dumbass. I think he was just
trying to appeal to Shasta's emotions maybe and say like, it was an accident. Oh my gosh, poor me.
Oh no. I had to put him out of his misery. Yeah. Don't be mad at me. Yeah. Oh. Joseph would then
force Shasta to help him move Dylan's body onto a tarp where he ultimately burned it in front of her.
Jesus Christ. Shasta stated about this quote, I was just confused and I remember like, I think
about for a week, I just didn't talk. I couldn't say anything. I was just frozen and quote.
At this point, it's been six weeks since the since the abduction and Joseph decides to move
Shasta to another campsite. Again, like I said, they were in a remote area at first, but this spot
was near other people who would frequently walk by their camp. What? She would be chained up inside
the tent though. So she wouldn't be able to go get out, talk to people. She would be desperate to
call for help from the passerbys, but Joseph would continually threaten her and she said that she
never said anything out loud because she was just so scared. After multiple nights at this new campsite,
even though Shasta had been following all of his orders, Joseph decides that he needs to kill her
now too. Shasta stated about this quote, he was just like, you have the choice to be strangled or
you have the choice to be shot like your brother and that one's gonna be quicker. I felt like if
I had chosen the strangulation that I might have a chance to talk him out of what he was doing.
And quote. What? That's so intense. Keep in mind, yes, this is an eight-year-old little girl
that is just extremely smart and brave like during this whole thing. Joseph proceeded to
put a rope around Shasta's neck and began pulling. Shasta admitted that during this time, she felt so
defeated due to losing her entire family that she almost gave up. She stated about this quote,
I kind of remember seeing my mom's face. I heard her voice and then like I started to see white
and then everything kind of came back end quote. At that moment, Shasta decided that she was going
to live and she needed to come up with an idea quick to save her life. She states quote, I had
worked up enough breath to say please don't jet end quote. Jet was actually a nickname of Joseph
that he had told the kids about. Oh wow. Shasta stated about this quote, I noticed that when I would
use that name with him, it would like soften him a little bit. Like it would soften him and he's like
what did you say? He just he started crying and he's like I can't do this end quote. Wow. Shasta
was able to convince Joseph to let her go and allow her to live just a little bit longer to which he
complied. Shasta knew that if she had to continue to build a relationship with Joseph in order to
stay alive. She would state about this quote, anytime me going home was brought up I would tell
him no I don't want to go I want to stay here with you. He'd be like really? You could tell that it
was starting to catch him off guard a little bit. It's like reverse Stockholm. It really is. It's
incredible. On July 2nd 2005, seven weeks after the kidnapping, Joseph would bring up a thought to
Shasta. She would say about this quote, he basically sat me down and asked if I would be his kid and I
would stay with him. You know that I would call him dad. He's like I want to take you to meet my mom.
Would you meet her? And I had said yes end quote. Like he's losing his not that it's a bad thing but
he's losing his like priority in his mind and now he's like I want to introduce you to my family.
Like this could be a real thing. This could be forever. Yeah. Oh my gosh. As the two left the
campsite and were heading towards Joseph's mother's home, Shasta knew that she may have an opportunity
to be seen around her town. She would ask Joseph to take her to specific places with the hopes
that she would be recognized. She states quote, I said can you take me to where I grew up? Like I
want to show you where I went to school and I want to show you where my best friend lives.
Like I want to show you all these places that are important to me because you're important to me.
And he was like yeah of course I'd love to end quote. Oh my god. She's so like she needs to be a
psych like a psychiatrist. Yeah. Psychologist. Nearly two months after being kidnapped Shasta has Joseph
drive her right back to the town that she was abducted from. Smart girl. The two would stop at
a gas station and be caught on film. Later reports from witnesses were stating that she was calling
him dad but she was clearly keeping her distance from him and looked uncomfortable and dirty.
Police would get a tip that Shasta was potentially spotted at the store but it was not until after
the manager reviewed security footage that the two had already left the store. Shasta states about
this quote, I remember just holding on to hope but still feeling like there wasn't going to be any
end quote. As their drive continued Joseph asked Shasta if she's hungry to which she immediately
says yes knowing that if they stop somewhere else she has a better chance of being recognized.
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The two would go to the Denny's restaurant in Coeur d'Alene. Shasta stating about this quote,
as I was walking in I noticed that my missing persons poster was right there. Oh shit. There was
this guy standing outside and he was with his friends and he nodded his head and I nodded my head
and he went up to the counter and made it kind of seem like he was conversating with one of the
waitresses and then I seen her look over at me and quote. Wow that's oh my god imagine the heaps.
The amount of heaps right like you're looking at a missing poster for a child and you're looking at
down and there's that child. Oh my god with a complete stranger. The waitress Amber Dean was
noted as stating about this quote, they were my only table at the time and I immediately recognized
her. His entire world revolved around her. She didn't speak without his permission or something's
just not okay. And quote, Amber thought she had a pretty good idea of the situation before her
but she did not want to alert Joseph that anything was amiss. Yeah. Amber stated quote,
I had spoken to my manager and you know I think we should probably call Coeur d'Alene PD. I'm
pretty positive that Shasta Groney over there. I'll pay for their meal if I'm wrong. We need
to get somebody up here and quote. Oh shit. Right? Oh my god yeah and then you're like it's not.
Yeah right. Oh shit. I'm so sorry. Sorry my child's just dirty. I feel like the parents would still
understand because they're like oh like better safe than sorry. Exactly. I know my child will be
protected. Exactly. Some rounds. Amber yeah. Other patrons at the restaurant had also noticed Shasta
and they were able to secretly form a common effort to make sure that they held Joseph off from
leaving until police arrived. Like if he had gotten up to leave they were like no seriously. I'm
thinking of like a guy walking by with like his coffee cup and he's like oh sorry. So what's
he? Don't can't see where I'm going. My bad. No right. Oh sorry I spilled it on you.
You spilled it on you. Good change. Yeah. Police finally get the call they had been waiting for
for nearly two months. I've got a little girl here with a tall gentleman and she looks so much
like this. Shasta and we're not sure you know I just I don't know. So that was a call that I got on
an episode of TikTok actually from the Fugitive Crime. Oh okay. But yeah so I just wanted to
pet through that in there but that was the call that was the waitress. At this point Shasta can
tell that people in the restaurant recognize her but she was so concerned that Joseph was also going
to notice. She states quote I remember thinking that he's so smart and then I was like even if
they know that I'm with him maybe he'll have an excuse and they'll just leave and they won't think
that anything was wrong end quote. Oh my gosh. So scary like this is your this is your chance.
Right. And you think it's about to happen but then he's so unpredictable. Exactly. What if he
takes her hostage. Exactly. Oh my gosh. It seems at this point that everyone is waiting for police
to get there but Joseph is ready to leave. In an effort to stall Amber pretends to have trouble
printing their check while other patrons in the restaurant position themselves strategically so
they can stop him if he tries to leave. They're like scooting their chair back slowly just getting
closer to the door. Sticking their foot out to trip him. Yeah putting a banana peel on the floor.
Yeah put some wire strings down by the by the doorway. After what seems like forever the police
arrive and immediately approach the table they ask Shasta for her name to which she tells them
and police immediately arrest Joseph. Hell yeah. Shasta stated about this quote the whole entire
restaurant started clapping like they all knew who I was and they all knew that I was a missing
person and like it was kind of like they all played a factor into my rescue. I'm gonna cry.
I know I have the I've had the heaps this whole time. That is amazing can you imagine like oh my
gosh oh I'm gonna cry. Before they even leave the restaurant Shasta tells police that the man
with her is the same man who killed her family at home. Oh shit. When Shasta was found without
Dylan police immediately knew something was wrong. She also wasn't like immediately gonna tell them
my brother is dead you know she's like my family's been killed it's him. I guess she didn't specify
that Dylan had also been killed. Right. Police would interrogate Joseph for hours with no information
coming from him. Police felt that they had no choice but to turn to Shasta for answers. In an
extremely brave effort Shasta explained to police what happened to her brother. Not only did she
tell police about what happened to her family members Shasta would even relate to police the
additional crimes that Joseph had told her about. She stated quote I remembered everything when I was
found I told the investigators what he had told me end quote about about the girls. Carmen. Two days
after this on July 4th 2005 investigators discovered human remains at a remote makeshift camp site.
The remains were sent to the FBI lab for DNA testing and were positively ID'd as being those of Dylan.
Joseph Duncan's arrest led the FBI to launch a nationwide review of unsolved missing child cases.
He was implicated as a possible suspect in several crimes that occurred between 1994
and 1997 when he was on parole and between 2000 and 2005 when he was free from prison.
Although he was cleared as a suspect in some cases authorities in California and Washington had
enough evidence to suspect Joseph had committed unsolved murders in their areas as well. Oh my
gosh Shasta being the badass of a child that she was also told police about the crimes that Joseph
had confessed to while she was being held against her will. She told authorities about Joseph's
confession of the murder of Anthony Martinez in 1996 and the murders of 11 year old Sammy Joe and
nine year old Carmen who are both reported missing in 1996. Following his arrest Joseph Duncan would
be tried in three separate courts. He would first appear in a Kootenai County courtroom on July 13th
2005 where he was facing charges of three counts of first degree murder and three counts of first
degree kidnapping. This was in relation to the deaths of Brenda and Slade Groney and Mark Mackenzie.
County prosecutors originally wanted to charge Joseph with the kidnappings of Shasta and Dylan
however they deferred those two cases as federal charges and had him tried separately for those.
Oh okay. The reason behind this was that transporting children across state lines
for the purpose of sexual exploitation is federal offense. The trial for the first
charges was set to begin on January 17th 2006 but would be delayed until April 4th after the
district judge granted a request to the defense for more time to prepare. No fuck you. Yeah right
like why do you need more time? Yeah. The trial was delayed once again this time with a new date
of October 26th after the judge was noted as stating quote no one wants to try this case twice
including me and hell yeah no nobody wants to beat me or twice no. Joseph's attorneys were noted as
blaming the multiple postponements on the prosecution's insistence on pursuing the death penalty.
Yeah probably they probably want him dead. Yeah. On October 16th 2006 shortly after jury selection
began Kootenai County prosecutors and Joseph's attorney had come up with a plea bargain in which
Joseph would plead guilty to all state charges against him. Following this Joseph would immediately
be sentenced to three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole for the three
kidnapping charges of the murder victims. Too light. Yeah still too light. The three first
degree murder charges sentenced or stayed pending the outcome of his federal trial on the kidnapping
of Shostan Dylan and the murder of Dylan. In the scenario that Joseph did not receive the death
penalty on the federal charges he would be required to return to Kootenai County for a death
penalty phase on the state murder charges. Oh shit. So basically the judge wanted to make damn sure
that he would get the death penalty. Yeah. On January 18th 2007 Joseph was indicted by a federal
grand jury in Coeur d'Alene on 10 counts of quote kidnapping, kidnapping, resulting in death,
aggravated sexual abuse of a minor, and sexual exploitation of a child resulting in death.
So awful. I mean he's already proven that he can't exist in society. No clearly he can't be around
children. No not at all. He's gonna get some shit when he goes to jail. Other crimes relating to
illegal firearm possession and vehicle theft were also placed against him. Joseph would be
arraigned the following day at a federal court in Boise where a judge ordered him to stand trial
the following March. Joseph's defense attorneys immediately requested a postponement which was
granted the week the trial was originally scheduled to begin and a new trial date was set for January
22nd of 2008. On this same day so January 19th 2007 Riverside County officials announced that
Joseph Duncan was being charged with the murder of Anthony Martinez. Despite attempts by Riverside
County officials to extradite Joseph to California including an appeal by Arnold Schwarzenegger,
Joseph's federal trial would proceed excuse me. Gubernatorial. I want to be your gubernatorial
candidate. You do it so much better than me. Get's us a chopper. Oh my god it's terrible. Have you
seen that new state farm commercial that he's doing? Oh my gosh. Like a good neighbor. State farm is here.
Is this neighbor? Yeah they're like it's neighbor. He's like neighbor neighbor neighbor. And then they
get Dana DeVito in there. In the commercial. Dana DeVito isn't it? I didn't even see him. Yeah he's
like like a good neighbor. I did not even see him. No? There might be an extended one. There probably is.
Yeah. Oh that's supposed to be like twins like the movie twins that they were in. Oh yes I remember
that. I'm sorry. On December 3rd 2007 Joseph Duncan pleaded guilty to all 10 charges against him.
As a condition of the plea deal Shasta Groney would not have to testify in the penalty phase of the
trial and due to a gag order other details of the plea agreement were not released to the public.
Jury selection for the penalty phase for Joseph's trial began on April 14th 2008
and during this selection Joseph would dismiss his attorneys and opt to represent himself. Oh god
okay Bundy. They're always so smart. I mean you might as well do it. You know fuck going to law school
and taking the bar and all that other stuff. I'm smarter than you. I'm smarter. Gosh have you seen
that Daniel Brooks guy? Daniel Brooks he's the guy that drove his car through the parade of people
and like after having an argument with his girlfriend. No. When was this? This was oh gosh 2010. I mean
sorry 2019 maybe. Oh yeah it was in France right? No. Oh I'm thinking of a different yeah that was
2015. That was the day after that was the day before my son was born. True. Yeah but no this guy Daniel
Brooks and so he's like I'm gonna represent myself. Well his entire case of representing himself
was that he could not be identified quote unquote. He's like who's gonna and who is this entity
that you're speaking about Daniel Brooks? Who is this entity and the judge had so much patience
but she was annoyed every day. Of course. I would be too. That's not how it works Mr Brooks. Yeah
that was me that was Patricia. It's me Patricia. So Joseph's attorneys would of course object him
representing himself insisting that he was not competent enough to stand to do that. Yeah. They
would request to have a formal hearing regarding this issue. The district court ordered an evaluation
of Joseph to determine his competence and the conclusion of this was that he was competent
enough to proceed without counsel. Go ahead. Yeah go for it. Make an ass to yourself. On August 27th
2008 after just three hours of deliberation the jury would recommend the death penalty for Joseph
Duncan and the judge would impose three death sentences for kidnapping resulting in death,
sexual exploitation of a child resulting in death, and the use of a firearm and a violent crime
resulting in death. That's a quote. All related to the death of Dylan Groney. On November 3rd 2008
Joseph would be sentenced to an additional three consecutive terms of life without the possibility
of parole for the kidnapping of Shasta Groney and the sexual abuse of both children. He has like
seven life sentences now. Yeah good. In the death penalty. Good. The attorneys that were supposed
to defend Joseph in this trial would immediately file a notice of appeal on his behalf but Joseph
would also write the court stating that any appeal received was quote against his wishes and quote.
So he's like gonna pout. He's like no, just put it. I don't want anybody representing. Just get it.
Don't appeal for me. Don't appeal on my behalf.
On March 15th 2011 Joseph Duncan would plead guilty to the murder of Anthony Martinez
and would subsequently be sentenced to two life terms on April 5th 2011. So we're up to like nine.
I think it's eight actually. Okay. As part of a plea deal the sentence came out without the possibility
of parole or the right to appeal. Although Joseph could have faced a separate death penalty sentence
for this murder, Riverside County DA Paul Zellerbach justified the life sentence by stating that he
had consulted with the Martinez family. The family wanted closure in the case and stated quote,
the federal system will kill him long before the state of California would have seriously
considered it. I mean yeah like we all know what happens to child abusers in prison. Yeah it's like
just yeah have him go deal with that stuff. Exactly. See how he likes it. On December 6th 2013
a federal judge ruled that he was mentally competent when he gave up his right to appeal
his death sentence. Well not that the judge was competent but Joseph was. Yeah he was like. The
judge ruled that himself was mentally competent. Psychiatrists working with the prosecution
would ultimately diagnose Joseph Duncan with pedophilia, sadistic personality disorder,
and antisocial personality disorder with narcissistic traits, but would maintain that he was legally
sane. So I want to do a whole mental breakdown on this topic but essentially sadistic personality
disorder is characterized as a pervasive pattern of sadistic and cruel behavior. People with this
disorder are thought to have desire to control others which makes a lot of sense. Yeah which
is different than masochistic right? Yes. Okay. A three judge panel of the Ninth Circuit US Court
of Appeals ruled on March 27th 2015 that a district judge correctly determined that Joseph was mentally
competent when he waived his right to appeal his death sentence. On February 28th 2016 the US Supreme
Court denied Joseph's petition to hear his appeal for a federal judge's ruling in December 2013.
It's just all this shit like no wonder the judge didn't want to do this shit more you know. Yeah
because I keep having to hear about your ass. Yeah lock them up and throw away the key. Exactly.
Prior to his arrest Joseph maintained a personal website titled The Fifth Nail.
According to Lore in addition to the four nails used to pierce the body of Jesus and
his crucifixion there was a fifth nail taken away and hidden by the Romans. Joseph adopted
the name of this own website and blog and he would post about his day-to-day life as a convicted
sex offender. However he would deny being of pedophile and claim to have been sexually abused
himself as a child. His sister Sherry Cox would testify on Joseph's behalf stating that Joseph
and herself alike were subjected to horrible abuse as children. So we said it earlier. Yeah. She
stated about their mother quote, when she was beating on you if you fought back it was worse.
In his case he just took what she gave and kind of whimpered off into his bedroom and quote.
I thought his brother said there was no abuse. He did. So I'm just that's what I'm saying there's
there's conflicting accounts. Yeah. After he got to prison Joseph would maintain a blog
spot website titled quote, Joseph E. Duncan III returns to the web from federal death
for to expose the meaning of the fifth nail. In quote. Oh my god. Shut the fuck up loser.
You're such a loser. Nerd. You're such a loser nerd. All of this content was posted by someone
using the pseudonym Silenced. Oh no. And it's believed that this person was receiving letters
from Joseph and posting on his behalf out in the world. Silenced. Silenced. John Adams,
Joseph's public defender and prosecutor Bill Douglas declined to comment on the possibility
that Joseph was blogging from prison. It's like he shouldn't be able to do that. Yeah.
He's a terrible person. I could do that. Access to the internet is like not this guy's thing.
Right. Yeah. Because if you have access to the internet, guess what you also have access to
children, right? However, in John Adams again, his public defender was noted as stating about
Joseph before representing him quote, he was a broken man. He was frightened and desperate
and confused. It was often hard to follow what he was talking about because he was talking about
things that weren't relevant. That tells me that he's mentally ill. Yeah. Yeah. He's got some
disconnect going on. According to the blog, Joseph rarely interacted with other death row
prisoners and actively chose not to speak with them or engage in conversation. Yeah,
I'll say because he knows what's going to happen. Exactly. In fact, Joseph claimed that he didn't
really socialize with anyone at all and he would only speak to other prisoners when he was required
to. I'm just too good for them. I'm not wired to speak to you. I'm afraid of what you're going
to do to me because I'm a fucking pedophile. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. I just really crave
my solitude. That's just one of the many things about me that are interesting. You know, I also
enjoy being alive and I feel like you're going to kill me. Despite this, Joseph also claimed to
never having problems with any other inmates and stated that he had only received harassment on a
few occasions from a handful of COs. I don't buy it. In July of 2019, the US federal government
announced that they would be resuming executions after a nearly two decade hiatus. Joseph claimed
that he was, quote, relieved to hear this as in his opinion, being executed via lethal injection
would be a much, quote, better and cleaner way to die than of natural causes in prison. Yeah. He's
concerned about being clean. Yeah. Yeah. You're like the dirtiest fucking person in the world.
You're disgusting. He stated that dying of natural causes in prison was the one thing he feared the
most and that he was worried that the government would never get around to executing him. I'm
just never going to get around to it. They're not even concerned with me. Yeah. They just don't
even want to kill me. They don't even care to kill me. Yeah. I'm just too important. Out of the five
federal prisoners selected for execution, Joseph stated that he was acquainted with four of them
but would not call any of them his friends. He did also claim that everyone on federal death row
would be, quote, better off if they were executed. I'm just a lone wolf. Yeah. You'd be better off
without me. There's two wolves inside of me. Again, that wasn't me. That was Patricia. That was
Patricia. In October of 2020, Joseph underwent brain surgery after he was diagnosed with
geoblastoma, a very dangerous brain cancer. Why not let the brain cancer kill him? Let it kill him.
Because the state has to, that's why. He would decline any treatment and rejected
chemotherapy and radiation therapy. I'm just, I just need to suffer.
Medical staff at the Federal Bureau of Prisons estimated that he had between six and 12 months
of life to live after being diagnosed. Oh, shit. Joseph Duncan would die on March 28, 2021,
at the age of 58. Anthony Martinez's father, oh, he died of natural causes, by the way. Not
natural, but sick. He didn't get executed. I mean, that's essentially what he feared, anyways.
Anthony Martinez's father, Ernesto, was noted as stating about Joseph's death, quote,
while I would have liked to witness his execution, knowing he is now standing before God, being held
accountable for what he had done, what he did to my son and the horrible crimes he committed to others.
That's the real justice, end quote. Anthony's younger brother, Marcus, stated, quote,
God has brought pure justice for all those Joseph Duncan has hurt. There is less evil in this world.
Nothing can bring my brother back, but now Duncan can never hurt anyone ever again. Because of him,
I will spend the rest of my life doing everything I can to fight against any evil left in the world,
end quote. Anthony's mother was noted as stating about Joseph's death, quote,
the sun is brighter today and my soul is lighter. Oh, shit. The world is a more beautiful place
without the evil that is Joseph Duncan. God chose to make his end a long suffering and I
believe that is fitting. The horror of his thoughts consumed him, end quote. I can't imagine, but I
can't imagine that feeling being like, I don't have to worry about that anymore. On the off chance
that he gets fucking released again. I lost a friend in an accident, a car accident. Well,
I wouldn't say an accident because this douche was deliberately driving drunk on the wrong way
of the highway. But you know, when he had his sentence finally, I can't imagine the amount of
relief that his family must have felt. And then one day, hopefully that guy, well, he will die in
prison. And when that day fucking comes, what a relief then too? Because he can never hurt anybody,
he can never terrorize anyone, he can never manipulate anyone, you know, just a place on this
earth. Imagine if they had released him on like compassionate release because of his illness.
Oh my God, right? Could you imagine? I don't know if they'll do that with a
death row though. He would do a thrill killer some shit. Absolutely. The jurors who opposed
the death penalty for Joseph were offered counseling in order to help them cope with
the horrific evidence they had to see in the trial. Among the evidence viewed was a 33 minute video
depicting a nude Joseph torturing physically and verbally assaulting and sexually abusing
a nude restrained boy identified as Dylan Groney. Oh shit. On top of the video, human remains a
wire noose and other videos of Joseph's continued torture of Dylan were in evidence.
During one of the videos, a child can be heard screaming in pain while a nude Joseph shouts,
quote, the devil is here boy, the devil himself, the devil likes to watch children suffer and cry,
end quote. Jesus Christ. Fucking good riddance. That is disgusting. How can you terrorize children?
No, literally. It's sickening. In 2016, Shasta Groney, then 19 years old,
was started a petition called Slade and Dylan's Law in honor of the two brothers she lost.
The petition suggested that convicted sex offenders should not be let out of jail,
essentially changing the three strike rule to one strike. Hell yeah. Why the fuck is there a
three strike rule? You can hurt three people. And then the last time you're now three children,
and the last time you're gonna stay in jail. And you're gonna stay in jail. Don't do it more than
three times. Don't get caught more than three times. Don't get caught. That's horrific. No, it's
absolutely gross. By the time the petition had closed, it had nearly 52,000 supporters.
The petition reads, quote, my name is Shasta Groney. I am 19 years old and I am seeking out a way for
not only my voice to be heard, but other victims. When I was eight, my mother, stepfather, and 13-year-old
brother Slade were murdered, and my brother Dylan and I were kidnapped from our homes by a level
three sex offender named Joseph Edward Duncan III. He was charged many times before my situation and
was let out again and again. I would like for this petition to change that. One strike for a violent
sex offender should be enough. Never let them back on the streets to re-offend. I understand that
there are some cases where people have to register as a sex offender, but it wasn't exactly fair.
Those people aren't included. This is for the offenders who take their people's decision to
choose. This isn't a disease. It's a sick twisted person who cannot be helped or fixed.
The system failed me and my family, and I'm going to do whatever it takes to put an end to
the psychos running the streets, end quote. Hell yeah. Like, what a fucking boss bitch.
Following Joseph's arrest, Shasta was known as having an extremely hard time readjusting to not
only a free life, but a life without most of her family. She would state about this quote,
I was happy to be in a safe place, but there was still a part of me that's like, well,
what if this happens again, end quote. Could you imagine that way? No, I cannot.
Not only was Shasta suffering from severe PTSD and attending therapy often following her attack,
but she was constantly being recognized as well. She stated quote, I just wanted to be a normal
teenage girl. There was still court stuff going on with Joseph Duncan. There was still counseling
that I had to do, and I didn't feel good about myself or the person that I was. So I think that
all that kind of pushed me over the edge, end quote. Shasta would quickly turn to drugs and
alcohol to try to escape her reality, and she would spend her early teenage years in a juvenile
correctional facility. She would meet other girls here that shared a similar experience with the
drug abuse. She would state around this time quote, the judge was very honest with me, and she's like,
Shasta, I feel like you do have a lot of help you can give people, and I feel like you're way better
than what you're doing, end quote. I mean, but like, I would probably do the same thing, if I'm
being completely honest. Like I would be so lost. That's, you know, with the Columbine Patreon episode
that we did, it was when we went through the survivors and what everybody went through, it's
not all success stories. This is very traumatic stuff, and yeah, plenty of people turn to drugs
and alcohol after that. It's horrible. Shasta would begin to change her life, meeting the man who
would be her future husband. This man just so happens to be related to Sammy Jo and Carmen.
Whoa. Shasta would state about this quote, for a long, long time, like I always had this feeling
that I could not have kids, but he's not going to steal the fact that I can bring children into
this world, end quote. Shasta would go on to have her children, and in April of 2018, Shasta would
plead guilty to two misdemeanor courts of injury to a child and was ordered to serve unsupervised
probation through October 2019. Uh-oh. Courts stated that Shasta endangered a one-year-old child in
her custody by leaving methamphetamine out where the child could have ingested it, and that she
also left the drug in close proximity to a month-old baby. That's awful. A Canyon County judge
declined to sentence her to jail time and instead instituted 18 months of probation. Okay. As far
as I know, she has not reoffended or anything. Wow. Steve Groney, Shasta's father, died in 2019
of cancer. After hearing the news of Joseph Duncan's passing in 2021, Shasta stated, quote,
I woke up feeling like my soul was finally free, end quote. Shasta is now 26 and she has five
children. Oh my goodness. Ooh, I got choked up. Knowing that the community played a huge part in
her rescue, Shasta continues to engage with people who have shown her support over the years. She
states, quote, I still keep in contact with the guy that I made eye contact with outside of the
restaurant. His name is Nick Chapman. A couple of the other investigators and officers that worked
on my case, they brought me to their house and I met their kids. They completely made my life so
much easier. They allowed me to be a kid when I felt like I couldn't, end quote. Shasta was also
noted about saying about Joseph before he died, quote, I don't hate him for the things that he's
done. I forgive him actually. If I don't forgive him, then he's going to control my life. I want
him to know that I'm doing good things with my life too so that he knows he doesn't have control
over my life and that he doesn't affect me anymore, end quote. Hell yeah. What a bad bitch. I mean,
honestly, could you imagine having to like grow up in that moment? Like she had to become an adult
right then in two months. Yeah. In order to survive this. Shasta has expressed interest in
becoming a counselor to help others that go through similar experiences. But as far as I can tell,
this has not happened quite yet. Shasta would also state in the same interview as a teen, quote,
I know that I lived for a reason and there's a reason that I'm on this planet still and I know
that I'm here to help other people. If there's anybody in the world right now that's being abused
and they hear that I'm giving up, what would that do for them? End quote. Which is so true.
And lastly, that's the whole story essentially. One last quote from Joseph is all I have left and
not really sure where it's from, but I wanted to pepper it in here because it was pretty freaky.
Quote, the world will know who I really was and what I really did. I am scared, alone, and confused
and my reaction is to strike out toward the perceived source of my misery, society. My intent
is to harm society as much as I can, then die, end quote. Okay, edge lord. No, like you're not
fucking cool. You're so edgy. I just wanted to also pepper these in here as well. That is the
end of our episode, but I wanted to give you guys the number for the National Center for Missing
and Exploited Children. That is 1-800-THE-LOST-T-H-E-L-O-S-T. They're available 24-7 as well as the
National Human Trafficking Hotline. That is 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And that is 888-373-7888.
Or you can text the word INFO to 233733. But yeah, that's all I got. Really interesting case. It's
really interesting that, I mean, again, it was later that we kind of heard that Joseph and his
sister were possibly abused, but like you said, there wasn't a lot of like early life. Yeah,
there really wasn't because they moved around so much. It would make sense, though. I think it was
sexually abused as a kid. But yeah, I think that it's kind of interesting. I know that we usually
talk about the perpetrator and their disorders, but it's kind of interesting talking about the
like psychology of Shasta and how she used those things that you do essentially, right,
in psychology and being able to recognize that in a person and know how to talk her way through this.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I mean, if she's capable of that at that age, a lot of kids are capable
of that at that age. I don't think that that's too early of an age to talk about, you know,
hard things with kids and not necessarily maybe things exactly like this. But psychology is
very helpful for any age. I really think it would be maybe if there's like a children's psychology
thing that you can look up, I think that would be really cool, you know. But yeah, she I mean,
that's just an incredible survival story of her. She just thought on her feet and I mean,
very, very unfortunate to have to lose your whole family. Right. But it seems like she's
doing really well for herself. And we're really thankful that she's still around. Yeah. Joseph
got what he deserved. Thanks for letting us share your story, Shasta. Yes. Thank you for being open
about it. Yeah, absolutely. For other survivors. For sure. But yeah, that's all I have.
Well, that was a great episode. Thanks. You guys continue to check out our merch items. Go ahead
and get your tickets for the True Crime and Paranova podcast festival that is happening in July in
Denver from the 12th to the 14th. It's kind of birthday weekend. It's my birthday weekend. We're
going to be there. We're going to have a lot of fun and we cannot wait to meet the new podcasters
that are going and see our old friends. Yeah. Continue to check out those upcycled merch items.
They help us and the environment. There's going to be $15 for shirts, $25 for hoodie that includes
shipping. Absolutely includes shipping. Yes. Free shipping. And if you can't make it right now to
get the merch, we will bring all of the remaining upcycled merch that we have to Denver as well.
Yes. Okay. Anything else? I'm hungry. Me too. Okay. Talk to you guys later. Love you. Bye.
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