1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000
Hello!

2
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,000
Hello!

3
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,000
Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.

4
00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,000
I'm Kenna.

5
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000
I'm Koelle.

6
00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,000
And it's another one of them funky recording sessions.

7
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,000
Yes.

8
00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:36,000
So Koelle does not have a headset on and I do.

9
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,000
I'm hearing my voice lag as we speak, but I just can't not do it.

10
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:41,000
Yeah.

11
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,000
It's interesting wearing the headset because you can hear every little thing.

12
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:56,000
So when I wasn't wearing my headset in the last episode, there was some like shuffling on my part and stuff because I can't hear that when it picks it up because it sounds so quiet in here without a headset on.

13
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,000
Yeah, it's really loud with the headset on.

14
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:05,000
But thank you guys for bearing with us while we're learning our technical difficulties about our software and hopefully we still sound just as good.

15
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,000
You guys have no complaints.

16
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:13,000
We are going to get right into this episode, but before we do, do you want to go ahead and give everyone our handles?

17
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,000
Sure.

18
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:21,000
You can catch us on any social media platform at Diagnosing a Killer other than X, formerly known as Twitter, which is at Killer Diagnosis.

19
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,000
We have a Cash App event, a PayPal.

20
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,000
We have a Patreon where you get that bonus episode every month on the 29th.

21
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,000
I'm excited for this Patreon this month.

22
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,000
Yes.

23
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:40,000
And I'm excited. So that's going to be our tier two and tier three Patreon members. You get that exclusive episode like I said every month on the 29th.

24
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,000
Be sure to check out our new Merchie merch.

25
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,000
We just released earlier in the month a Slim Can Cousy design.

26
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,000
Yes.

27
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,000
And if you guys have any merch ideas, feel free to message us.

28
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,000
Yeah, definitely.

29
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:58,000
And one last thing, we have our active code for the True Crime and Paranormal Podcast Festival.

30
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:04,000
That is active as of last week, I think, so it's 15% off of your tickets to come see us in Denver.

31
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,000
And that code is D-A-K.

32
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,000
Plain and simple. Use code D-A-K and you'll get 15% off your tickets.

33
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,000
We're really excited to see you guys.

34
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,000
So excited.

35
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,000
Denver.

36
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,000
Are you ready?

37
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,000
I don't know. You look really excited.

38
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:24,000
I've been wanting to do this case for the better part of a year, maybe if not longer.

39
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:25,000
Okay.

40
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,000
So, today, we are going to be talking about one Karl Panzram.

41
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000
Oh my God.

42
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,000
We need a big old bitch.

43
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,000
Yeah, he's a big old bitch.

44
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,000
Oh my God.

45
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,000
Karl Panzram.

46
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,000
Yes.

47
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,000
Okay, Kenna and I, oh my gosh, I don't know, it's got to be like at least two or three years ago now.

48
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000
Yeah.

49
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,000
Well, it would have been before we even had diagnosing a killer.

50
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,000
That we talked about it.

51
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,000
We talked about it and Kenna and I were on our way down to Rockport and we were listening

52
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:58,000
to another podcast that had covered him and I just remember laughing the whole time because

53
00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,000
they were so funny.

54
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000
It was a really good episode.

55
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,000
That's actually the first time I heard about it and I actually forced you to listen to

56
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,000
it because I was driving.

57
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,000
I was like, my car, we're going to listen to my podcast.

58
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,000
My podcast, my favorite podcast.

59
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,000
Yeah, but.

60
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,000
Oh, I'm so excited.

61
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,000
I know.

62
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:13,000
Karl's Panzram.

63
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,000
Oh my God.

64
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,000
Okay.

65
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,000
Content warning.

66
00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:22,000
This episode contains depictions of child abuse and neglect, extremely graphic sexual assaults

67
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000
of children and adults, torture, arson, trafficking of young people, brutal murder of children,

68
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000
and derogatory language.

69
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:33,000
If this episode is not for you, we encourage you to find another one of our episodes.

70
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,000
Remember, your mental health is very important to us and we love you.

71
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,000
Love you.

72
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,000
Bye.

73
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,000
So yeah.

74
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,000
That's a doozy of a content warning.

75
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,000
That's what we're working with.

76
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:44,000
Okay.

77
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:51,000
Karl's Panzram was born on June 28th, 1891, close to East Grand Forks, Minnesota.

78
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,840
Sources differ on how many siblings Karl had.

79
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,200
One stated that he was the sixth of seven children while others stated that he was one

80
00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,800
of five born to East Prussian immigrants, Joanne or John.

81
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,000
I think it's Galtzleb, Panzram, and Matilda, Elizabeth or Lizzie, Panzram.

82
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,000
They have like eight names.

83
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,000
His name's Johan.

84
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,000
It's Johan, yeah.

85
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,000
Oh, that's so cool.

86
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,000
But it's like, I don't know how to pronounce it.

87
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,000
Galtzleb?

88
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000
Oh gosh, I don't know.

89
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,000
I think we've all learned by now that I can't, I cannot pronounce it.

90
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,000
We're just gonna say, we're just gonna butcher it like five minutes in.

91
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,000
Galtzleb could start.

92
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:24,000
We would say that.

93
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000
From a very young age, Karl and his siblings were made to stay home and help on the family

94
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,000
farm instead of attending school.

95
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,000
However, when truancy laws came into place in their area, the kids were required to attend

96
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,000
school.

97
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,000
It's not clear exactly when that happened, but from what I could tell, it was around

98
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:44,000
the end of the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s, every school, every area was kind of different.

99
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,000
Yeah, I think that's awesome when they started doing things like birth certificates and death

100
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,000
certificates.

101
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,000
Yeah, those are like caring about people.

102
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,000
Yeah, H.H. Holmes really got screwed on that one.

103
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000
Following the truancy laws being put into place, Karl's parents were extremely mad about the

104
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000
fact that they were losing their health on the farm so their kids could get an education.

105
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,000
Oh god, yeah, like, oh god, real stand up people.

106
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,000
So, due to their kids being in school all day, Karl's parents would force them to work on

107
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,000
the farm all night.

108
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,000
Karl would state about this that he used to only get two hours of sleep a night before

109
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000
having to get up for school.

110
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,000
What?

111
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,000
Like, it's detrimental to your immune system and mental health.

112
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,000
I guess his parents, though, probably didn't know or really care.

113
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,000
Oh, I'm sure.

114
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,000
And they were just like, oh, it's like mandatory day care is probably what they're thinking

115
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,000
instead of because they probably didn't have any experience in education.

116
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,000
For sure, and they definitely were like just having kids so that they could have more help

117
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,000
on the farm.

118
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,000
Yeah, it seemed like, you know, totally.

119
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,000
Karl's parents seemed to only have children to put them to work and they would punish

120
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:44,000
the children if they ever argued or did something the parents did not like.

121
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,000
Punishments in the household ranged from being starved to being chained up.

122
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,000
With the family being completely broken and it being the late 1800s, Karl was left to

123
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,000
his own devices and pretty much did whatever he wanted to when he was not being watched

124
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,000
by his parents.

125
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,000
So, they just treated him like ranch hands.

126
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,000
Exactly.

127
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,000
By the age of five, Karl claims that he was a liar and a thief and stated that he was

128
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,000
not liked by other children his age.

129
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,000
He was like, I was a liar and a thief and I was like five.

130
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,000
Yeah, he's so cool.

131
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,000
I was like the coolest five ever.

132
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:16,000
I'm so full of me really mature for my age.

133
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,000
When Karl was seven years old, his father abandoned the family, leaving Lizzie to take care of

134
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,000
all the children by herself.

135
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,000
Well, not really take care of, but just, you know, keep an eye out for him.

136
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,000
Yeah, to continue making them work a nine to five.

137
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,000
Eventually, Karl's older brothers would leave the home as well, but one of them would ultimately

138
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,000
actually drown in a well.

139
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,000
What?

140
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,000
That's how he left.

141
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:36,000
He didn't like actually leave.

142
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,000
He didn't actually.

143
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,000
He didn't actually.

144
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,000
He's still here today.

145
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,000
It's not funny.

146
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,000
So, he just like fell into the well, I guess.

147
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,000
I guess so, yeah.

148
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,000
Maybe it was so shallow that, yeah.

149
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,000
Damn, that sucks.

150
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,000
The fact that his brothers all left Karl didn't really matter to him because he was regularly

151
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,000
targeted by his siblings and was constantly being beaten on by them.

152
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,000
Oh yeah, especially if he's a little younger, right?

153
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,000
Yeah.

154
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,000
On top of this, Lizzie was continuing to be mentally and physically abusive to all the

155
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,000
children.

156
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,300
With their father being gone, the children's hours on the farm only increased, and Karl

157
00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:10,000
began acting out even more.

158
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,400
Karl would have his first run in with the law at the age of eight when he was charged

159
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,640
with being drunk and disorderly in public.

160
00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:16,720
I'm sorry, what?

161
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,000
You heard me correctly.

162
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,000
What?

163
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,000
Eight.

164
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,000
Eight?

165
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,000
Yes.

166
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,000
He drunk and disorderly?

167
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,000
Yes.

168
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,000
Oh God.

169
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000
So, he wasn't lying about being a liar at the age of eight.

170
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,000
Yeah, exactly.

171
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,000
Why?

172
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,500
He was legit.

173
00:07:30,500 --> 00:07:34,880
Karl would be let go for this because he was eight, but he would constantly commit petty

174
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,100
crimes for years following this.

175
00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:43,000
At the age of 11, Karl was arrested yet again for being drunk and incorrigible.

176
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,000
That's a quote.

177
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,000
Encourageable.

178
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,000
You'd be incorrigible.

179
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,000
What is that?

180
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000
Like a sly fox?

181
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000
What is that?

182
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,000
I think it's like unruly is what it means to be.

183
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,000
Yeah.

184
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,000
It just sounds like such an old-timey thing to say.

185
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,000
You're incorrigible.

186
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:02,000
Shortly following this, Karl would break into a neighbor's home where he there stole apples,

187
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,000
cakes, and a revolver.

188
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:09,000
Two things to eat, one thing to... shoot, to make someone else eat.

189
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:14,000
After a few years of his petty crimes, Karl's mother had just about had enough, and Karl

190
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,000
would be sent to the Minnesota State Training Reform School on October 11th of 1903.

191
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,000
Karl would later report that during his time at this school, he was repeatedly beaten,

192
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,000
tortured, and raped by staff members.

193
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,000
Holy shit.

194
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:33,000
Upon his arrival, Karl was taken into an office by a male staff member who stripped him naked,

195
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,000
examined him, and asked about his sexual practices.

196
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,000
And he's how old?

197
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000
12.

198
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,000
Jesus.

199
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000
Karl stated about this, quote, he examined my penis and my rectum, asking me if I had

200
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,000
ever committed fornication or sodomy or had ever had zonoby committed on me or if I had

201
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,000
ever masturbated, end quote.

202
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,000
Isn't that fucking disgusting?

203
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,000
That's fucking disgusting.

204
00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,000
While there, the children were subjected to receive, quote, Christian training, end quote,

205
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,000
and if they misbehaved or failed to learn their curriculum properly, they would be brutally

206
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,000
attacked by the staff.

207
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,000
Yeah, super Christian of them.

208
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,000
Yeah, great.

209
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,000
You can't learn something?

210
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,000
Wow.

211
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,000
Might beat you up and beat your ass and then you'll learn something.

212
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000
Better learn.

213
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:19,000
Karl had difficulty reading, so he would frequently be a target of the staff.

214
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:24,000
The staff had dubbed the room where they assaulted children, quote, the paint shop, end quote,

215
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,000
due to the fact that blood painted the room.

216
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000
Oh my God.

217
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,000
It's terrible, terrible.

218
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,000
Karl got a particularly large amount of visits to the paint shop with his resentment growing

219
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000
each time he went.

220
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:41,000
Karl stated that he would be assaulted by the staff with a wooden board, a thick leather

221
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,000
strap, a heavy paddle or whip.

222
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,000
Karl hated his time at the school so much and, understandably, had an extreme loathing

223
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,000
of the paint shop that he decided to burn the place down.

224
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,000
Oh shit.

225
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,000
Hell yeah.

226
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000
It's a fucking anarchy.

227
00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:00,000
On July 7th, 1905, Karl successfully lit a fire at the school without being detected.

228
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000
What?

229
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,000
By late 1905, Karl had learned how to tell the staff what they wanted to hear, and during

230
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,000
his parole hearing, he was able to convince them that he was fully reformed as a result

231
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000
of the lessons the school taught him.

232
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,000
So he lit a fire, but he didn't burn the whole place down.

233
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000
Yeah.

234
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,000
Well, yeah, he just lit the paint shop area.

235
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000
Yeah, and he's like, well now I know what they want me to say, so I'm just going to

236
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,000
pretend like I got everything, and then they'll let me go.

237
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,000
I'm sure he was, I mean, clearly he was used to being physically abused when he was a kid,

238
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:34,500
so he could probably take that aspect of it, but I think probably the sexual abuse was

239
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:36,000
probably way worse.

240
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,000
Yeah.

241
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:43,800
So, you know, yeah, he was just like, oh, like if all of my resistance is only going to cause

242
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:49,800
more problems, then yeah, him being able to suppress that and kind of just, I guess,

243
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:55,680
what am I trying to say, like mask all of that just to get out of there is totally something

244
00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:56,680
in his capabilities.

245
00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:58,400
But for him to learn that at such a young age.

246
00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:59,400
It's awful.

247
00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,280
And he's like, yeah, I'm reformed.

248
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,200
Karl stated about this quote, I was reformed all right.

249
00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,440
I had been taught by Christians how to be a hypocrite, and I learned more about stealing,

250
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,080
lying, hating, burning, and killing.

251
00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,880
Damn, it's like wicked intense, like really quick.

252
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:16,880
Super quick.

253
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:17,880
And he's so young.

254
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,080
It's awful.

255
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,400
By the winter of 1905, Karl's mother would remove him from the school.

256
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,360
Karl stated that after leaving the school, quote, all the good that may have been left

257
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,920
inside had been kicked and beaten out, end quote.

258
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:32,920
I'm sure she hated that too.

259
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:33,920
I'm sure she's like, oh, damn it.

260
00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,320
Like I thought I was rid of him.

261
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,320
Bring his ass home.

262
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:37,760
Bring his ass home and make him work on the farm.

263
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,600
Get to the farm.

264
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,680
After getting back home, Lizzie would notice that Karl had changed, but not for the better,

265
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:48,200
as he was much more melancholy and detached than he was before.

266
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,200
She's like, whatever.

267
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,680
Yeah, I wonder fucking why.

268
00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:51,680
Yeah.

269
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,040
Lizzie's health was falling, failing, excuse me, around this point.

270
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,520
So she pretty much brushed off the way that Karl was acting and hoped that he would just

271
00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,000
grow out of it eventually.

272
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,000
Just grow up.

273
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,000
Just grow up.

274
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,000
You know, just shake it off.

275
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,000
Just be mature.

276
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,000
Just fine.

277
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,720
After leaving the school, Karl would continue his crimes.

278
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,320
And on one particular instance, he stole money from his mother's pocketbook.

279
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,720
Lizzie was not too pleased with this, obviously, and she would report Karl to authorities.

280
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:16,720
Right.

281
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:22,280
Karl would be sent to Red Wing Training School, a state juvenile detention center.

282
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,240
In January of 1906, Karl would be paroled from Red Wing.

283
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,040
So what, he's like 14?

284
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,960
Around this time, Karl was showing signs of extreme alcoholism and was increasing his

285
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,320
criminal record with burglary and robberies.

286
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,920
Have you ever seen a million ways to die in the West?

287
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:37,920
No.

288
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:38,920
Oh, yes, I have, but I don't remember any of it.

289
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,840
Like that reference that they keep making is like, oh my gosh, she's like 13.

290
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:42,840
She's like middle-aged.

291
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:43,840
Yeah.

292
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,240
I mean, seriously, that's him.

293
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,240
He's got, he's a lifelong alcoholic.

294
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:48,240
Yeah.

295
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,240
He's 14.

296
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,240
Right.

297
00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,680
A few weeks after his parole release and after attempting to kill a Lutheran clerk with

298
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:58,400
a revolver, Karl would leave home in an attempt to escape reality.

299
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,520
At the age of 14, Karl hopped on a freight train and left the Minnesota farm never to

300
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,560
return.

301
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:08,520
Karl would become a regular on freight trains and even recalled at one point being gang-raped

302
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,320
by a group of homeless men on one occasion while traveling.

303
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,160
Oh my God.

304
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:18,080
Leading up to this attack, Karl found himself on a train heading west from Montana.

305
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,920
Upon boarding, he came across a group of homeless men hanging out together.

306
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,440
They struck up conversation with Karl, stating that they would get him some decent clothes

307
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,160
and a warm place to sleep.

308
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,520
However, they requested something in return.

309
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,000
All four of the men took turns sexually assaulting Karl.

310
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,240
Following this attack, Karl claimed that that was the moment that he decided he would get

311
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:39,760
his revenge.

312
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:44,800
He stated, quote, I left that box a sadder, sicker, but wiser boy.

313
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,880
I made up my mind that I would rob, burn, destroy, and kill everywhere I went and everybody

314
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,000
I could as long as I lived, end quote.

315
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,000
Jesus Christ.

316
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,480
14 heaps.

317
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,240
Yeah, at 14.

318
00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:59,960
Imagine feeling like that.

319
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,800
It's just, I mean, it's awful.

320
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:03,800
It's helpless.

321
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,520
It is hopeless.

322
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:11,520
Before that moment, it's this, like, just, you feel it, like you said it before, like

323
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,400
you feel bad for the kid, right?

324
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,000
Feel bad for him when he was a kid.

325
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,440
It's just, no kid deserves to go through that.

326
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,400
No wonder he just was like, fuck it, scorched earth now.

327
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,600
No, yeah, he was completely broken.

328
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,200
It was not long after this incident in the summer of 1906 that Karl would be arrested

329
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,880
for burglary in Butte, Montana.

330
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,760
He would be sentenced to a year of imprisonment at Montana State Reform School in Miles City.

331
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,840
And we'll see that he continually gets out and continually gets out.

332
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,360
Well, he's a child and everybody thinks that he's capable of that.

333
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,480
Even as an adult, though.

334
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:43,480
Yeah.

335
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,560
So, like I said, he only got a year, I'm assuming, because he was still only 14 at this

336
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:48,560
point.

337
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:49,560
Still a juvenile.

338
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:50,560
Yeah.

339
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,200
While here, Karl would claim that after a guard had punished him, he assaulted and seriously

340
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,240
injured the guard with a wooden board.

341
00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:03,120
As punishment for this, Karl had to spend some time in solitary confinement.

342
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:08,040
The next year, in 1907, Karl and a fellow inmate by the name of James Benson would escape

343
00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,400
from their reform school and would steal guns in Terry, Montana.

344
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:12,640
Oh shit.

345
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,520
In the next following weeks, while on the run, Karl and James would repeatedly break

346
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,800
into stores, raid buildings, especially churches, and burn them to the ground.

347
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:22,800
The churches?

348
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:23,800
In the stores, yeah.

349
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:24,800
Damn.

350
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,680
After the war, Karl and James would travel, and the men would go their separate ways in

351
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,400
Fargo, North Dakota.

352
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:34,000
In the later months of 1907, after getting drunk in a Helena, Montana saloon and engaging

353
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,440
in conversation with an army recruiter, Karl enlisted himself in the United States Army

354
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,320
and was assigned to the 6th Infantry at Fort William, Henry Harrison, at 16.

355
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,760
I was gonna say, he could only be like 16 if this was 07.

356
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,400
I actually tried to look it up and I couldn't find when the age requirement to join the

357
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,760
military was changed to 18, but apparently it wasn't a thing at this point.

358
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,800
Or he lied about his age because he's a big ol' bitch and they believed him.

359
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,280
That's so true, he's a big ol' bitch.

360
00:15:58,280 --> 00:15:59,920
He's a very big guy.

361
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:00,920
He's like 6'6", right?

362
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,720
Yeah, I'll talk about it.

363
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,640
Of course, Karl refused to take orders while in the army, quickly gaining the attention

364
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,080
of his superiors on his first day.

365
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,760
Karl would commit numerous crimes and constantly be drunk during this time.

366
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:14,760
Oh Jesus.

367
00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:15,760
How are you just drunk in the military?

368
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:16,760
I don't understand that.

369
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:17,760
They don't give a shit.

370
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,960
This is before the prohibition too, you know?

371
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:20,960
Yeah, that's true.

372
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:27,280
In April of 1908, Karl would steal about $88 worth of clothing and attempted to go AWOL.

373
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,720
Karl would be arrested for this crime.

374
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:34,000
He would face trial on April 20th and subsequently be convicted after pleading guilty to three

375
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,360
counts of larceny.

376
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,200
A prison sentence in the United States disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth between 1908

377
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,160
and 1910 from the ages of 17 to 19, he would serve.

378
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,640
So he is just kind of going in and out.

379
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,640
Yes.

380
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,360
And he would not play any long-term sentence here.

381
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,080
Yes, exactly.

382
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,320
Secretary of War William Howard Taft officially approved Karl's sentence.

383
00:16:58,320 --> 00:16:59,320
I love Taft.

384
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:00,320
You love Taft?

385
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:01,320
Just the name.

386
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:02,320
I love Taft.

387
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,440
The story behind that is that every time we watch Jeopardy and there's a question about

388
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:06,960
a president who always says Taft.

389
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,200
It doesn't matter what year it is, I'm always like, it's Taft.

390
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,000
He had a special bathtub made for him because he was so big.

391
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,560
Well, you're gonna love this story because he comes back up.

392
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,560
Taft?

393
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,520
He officially approved Karl's sentence.

394
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,360
Karl would later claim that while he had been a, quote, rotten egg before imprisonment

395
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:28,360
at the military penitentiary, quote, any shred of goodness left in him was smashed out, end

396
00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:29,360
quote.

397
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:30,840
Didn't you say that about the first place though?

398
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,120
Like didn't you say there was no good left and now he's saying it again?

399
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:35,440
Now there's really no good left.

400
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:36,440
Well, yeah.

401
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,080
And it's also like, I'm not trying to say that he is not on a hard life.

402
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:39,160
He absolutely has.

403
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,320
But it sounds like he's immediately just trying to blame it.

404
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:42,320
Like, oh, well, I'm just gonna do this.

405
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,520
And it's because of this, you know?

406
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:44,520
Yeah.

407
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,520
It's a great excuse.

408
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,880
In 1910, Karl was finished serving his time and found himself with nowhere to go.

409
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,960
Over the next several years, Karl would go by numerous different aliases and drifted

410
00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:01,160
across Kansas and Texas, eventually ending up in California.

411
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:06,160
Karl would be in and out of jail during this time, being released each time for some reason,

412
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:11,360
and would ride the train often, spending time in Washington, Idaho, Utah, and Oregon.

413
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,360
It's gotta be really like convenient for him to just be hopping on trains and committing

414
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:16,360
more crime.

415
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:17,360
Yeah, for sure.

416
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:18,360
It's like the railroad killer.

417
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:19,360
Yeah.

418
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:20,360
Or Richard Ramirez.

419
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:25,240
During these years, Karl would state that he was, quote, rage personified, and quote,

420
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,560
and talk of himself raping men often whom he had robbed prior.

421
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,760
So he did, like I said, he kind of went scorched earth, right, where he's like, fuck it to

422
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:33,760
everyone and everything.

423
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:34,760
Yeah.

424
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:35,760
I don't care about anybody.

425
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,920
But at the same time, like, kind of like what you said, you know, I used the word excuse

426
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,600
earlier, which is not an excuse, but it's like, it allows him to lean more into that

427
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:43,600
rage.

428
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,600
Yeah, definitely.

429
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,200
Karl was a big person, even at the young age of 19, and he would tower over his victims,

430
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,600
unfortunately giving him the upper hand.

431
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,400
While Karl gained a lot of attention from females due to his stature, he recalls not

432
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,080
being interested sexually in the opposite sex.

433
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:06,520
Karl was often committing other crimes during this time as well, such as arson and vandalism.

434
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,400
By his own accord, Karl claimed that one of the few times that he did not engage in criminal

435
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,720
activity was when he was employed as a strike breaker.

436
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,160
This is, I didn't know, it's a person who works despite a strike going on.

437
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,400
Oh, okay.

438
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,520
On one occasion, Karl tried to gain employment as a steward on a ship, but was discharged

439
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,360
when he showed up to work intoxicated.

440
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,160
Mm-hmm, of course.

441
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,960
Karl would be detained once again in 1910, where he was sent to prison and forced to

442
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,360
enter a chain gang.

443
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:36,040
This is a group of inmates that are chained together to perform physical work.

444
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,720
He was imprisoned in Rusk, Texas, and forced to do manual labor with fellow inmates.

445
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,200
But according to him, he escaped and went to Huidah Duarez, Mexico, in the winter of

446
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:50,320
1910 to try to enlist in the Federalist or the Mexican Federal Army.

447
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,440
Having no luck, Karl would hop a train to Del Rio, Texas, and got off in a small town

448
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,080
about 50 to 100 miles east of El Paso.

449
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,040
Karl would later claim to have abducted, assaulted, and strangled a man about a mile

450
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,920
from town before stealing $35 from the victim, which would be about the equivalent of $1,200

451
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:07,920
today.

452
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,000
Dang, why is that guy carrying around that much money?

453
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:15,320
In the summer of 1911, at the age of 20, Karl was arrested in Fresno, California, under

454
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,120
the alias of Jefferson Davis for stealing a bicycle.

455
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,520
It is I, Jefferson Davis.

456
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,120
I know it's a funny name.

457
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:27,880
He would be sentenced to six months in county jail, but would escape after just 60 days.

458
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,920
Karl later claimed that after he escaped, while riding on a boxcar in California, he

459
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,160
disarmed an armed man, whom he then forced to rape a homeless man at gunpoint before

460
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,840
throwing them both off of the train.

461
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:38,840
What the fuck?

462
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,440
Like, why?

463
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:41,440
Why are you doing this?

464
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,640
Do you think that it's real, or do you think that it is?

465
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,200
As I say, Karl claims, because I don't know.

466
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,200
A lot of this stuff is like, because he has an autobiography like Spoiler Alert.

467
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,480
So a lot of this stuff is from him.

468
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:53,480
We don't really know.

469
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,140
Gosh, it just reminds me kind of like, Elliott Roger when Elliott Roger was like, oh yeah,

470
00:20:57,140 --> 00:20:58,640
I totally did this and that.

471
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,160
Maybe even this Starbucks.

472
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,360
It's through my cafe all over the year.

473
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:02,360
teh Cafe all over the year.

474
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:03,360
Heavy couple.

475
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,640
It's just like, did you know.

476
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:12,120
Karl would travel to Oregon where he found work as a logger cutting and moving trees.

477
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:16,080
Karl would admit in his autobiography years later that once while hiding in a bordello

478
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:21,160
excuse me which is like a brothel, his wallet was stolen and he contracted gonorrhea.

479
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,160
Just magically?

480
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,160
Yeah.

481
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,160
Just happened to happen to get it.

482
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,160
I got gonorrhea because my wallet got stolen.

483
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:28,160
Like duh.

484
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,360
Unleashed the gonorrhea.

485
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:36,080
He would also admit that during this time he started having extreme paranoia.

486
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:41,680
In 1913 at the age of 22 Karl would change his alias once again to Jack Allen and was

487
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:47,080
arrested under this name in the dailies Oregon for highway robbery, assault, and sodomy.

488
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,480
I was gonna say is that the gonorrhea that makes you go crazy but it's not as syphilis.

489
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:52,480
Yeah.

490
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:53,720
Yeah, that's right.

491
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,000
He would ultimately break out of jail after only serving 60 days.

492
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,800
None of these prisons are able to keep him in.

493
00:21:58,800 --> 00:21:59,800
He just escapes.

494
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,800
Yeah.

495
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,000
Now he's adding escape artist to his resume.

496
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,600
Do you think that while he's in prison he's like a model prisoner because of what he was

497
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,920
taught when he was at that training school or whatever?

498
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,800
No, because I feel like if that was the case he would have been a model military man and

499
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:15,800
he wasn't.

500
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:16,800
That's true.

501
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,800
He was just a shithead.

502
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,520
I just was wondering if maybe he can talk his way out of anything.

503
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,520
Probably.

504
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:21,520
Kind of a guy.

505
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,240
But I feel like, I mean we'll see this later on, like he's pretty like apparently, like

506
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,000
he's pretty apparent and when he goes into jail he's like I fucking hate every single

507
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,000
one of you, don't talk to me.

508
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:32,000
Yeah.

509
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,360
He immediately causes a scene.

510
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:40,600
Carl would be arrested once again in Harrison, Idaho, but again he would escape from jail.

511
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,560
Carl eventually ended up in Chinook, Montana where he would be arrested once again under

512
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,720
his old alias of Jefferson Davis for a burglary charge on April 27th, 1913.

513
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,040
Whose first name is Jefferson?

514
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,560
He's two last names.

515
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:54,560
Jeffrey.

516
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,880
He would be sentenced to one year at Dear Lodge, 30 miles north of Butte.

517
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,240
While there, Carl would run into his old pal Jimmy Benson.

518
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,120
Together they would plan another escape.

519
00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:09,200
However, due to a last minute transfer, Jimmy would leave the facility and the escape would

520
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,200
never happen.

521
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,280
Well, I guess it would happen, but not with Jimmy.

522
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,440
Would have happened, yeah.

523
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,280
On November 13th, 1913, at the age of 22, Carl would escape Dear Lodge on his own.

524
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,680
Okay, he was like thanks for the plan, boy, and then just like leave.

525
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,920
He would however be arrested once again only a week later on another burglary charge under

526
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,400
the alias of Jeff Rhodes.

527
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,360
Authorities would find out his real identity, and Carl would be given another year on top

528
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,800
of their remaining sentence he already had as Jefferson Davis.

529
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:38,800
Oh my gosh.

530
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:39,800
Even though it's not his real identity.

531
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,800
They're like, oh we know you, you're actually Jefferson Davis.

532
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,800
He's like, sure.

533
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:43,800
Yeah, that's me.

534
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:44,800
That's me.

535
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,800
That's Jefferson Davis.

536
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,800
The prison was severely understaffed and super slow running, causing inmates to pretty

537
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,240
much lay around all day without anything to do.

538
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,320
Carl would find a way to occupy his time, however, and he would use his size to unfortunately

539
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,760
assault other inmates for his own gain.

540
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,320
Carl would serve out his whole sentence this time, being released on March 30th, 1915,

541
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,960
at the age of 24, with a new suit of clothing, $5, and a ticket to the next town over.

542
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,480
They're like get the fuck out of here.

543
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:14,480
Leave.

544
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,480
Never come back.

545
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,480
This is about $150 today.

546
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,480
God damn.

547
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,480
$5.

548
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:20,480
$5.

549
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:27,160
I thought it was interesting so I kept putting the conversion rates.

550
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,080
Whether it's your favorite browser or by app, listening to audiobooks with audiobooks

551
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,800
now makes it easier and more affordable to enjoy your favorite books.

552
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,960
Audiobooks Now subscribers receive their club price plan and includes other amazing

553
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:40,960
deals.

554
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,960
Click the link in the show notes for an exclusive offer today.

555
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Get audiobooks you love for less with Audiobooks Now.

556
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,520
Carl would quickly hop back on a train and go through Washington, Idaho, Nebraska, and

557
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,280
South Dakota.

558
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,680
On June 1st, Carl would burglarize a home in Astoria, Oregon, stealing less than $20

559
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,560
worth of items, and was soon arrested while attempting to sell some of the stolen items.

560
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,600
He would be charged with larceny in a dwelling after the DA promised to go easy on him.

561
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:12,600
Why?

562
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,600
And he pled guilty.

563
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,480
Because he can talk his way out of anything.

564
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,720
That's the way I feel.

565
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,160
He would be subsequently sentenced to seven years in the Oregon State Penitentiary, what

566
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,240
will be referred to as OSP from here on out because it's a long, long name.

567
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,400
The next day he was released.

568
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:28,400
No.

569
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,440
He would be sentenced in Salem under the alias Jefferson Baldwin.

570
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:32,440
Oh no.

571
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,160
He changed his last name.

572
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Carl would arrive on June 24th, 1915 as inmate number 7390.

573
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,400
Although his uncooperative attitude was quickly observed by guards, they seemed to be nonreactive

574
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,400
to it.

575
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:50,160
OSP was notorious in the Pacific Northwest for punishing its prisoners with torture and

576
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,160
abuse.

577
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,160
Oh shit.

578
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,440
Carl's name was known for keeping inmates in line by using forceful techniques such

579
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,320
as whipping, hosing, beating, starving, and isolation.

580
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,640
That sounds like the warden from Shawshank.

581
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,140
Yeah.

582
00:26:04,140 --> 00:26:07,440
Prisoners who stepped out of line were usually shackled to walls and hung from rafters for

583
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,840
hours or even days on end.

584
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,160
Carl was known as stating about this, quote, I swore I would never do that seven years

585
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,720
and I defied the warden and all of his officers to make me.

586
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,320
The warden swore I would do every damn day or he would kill me.

587
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:23,320
Oh fuck.

588
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,320
He's like, you do your seven days or you're gonna be here for seven years?

589
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,320
Seven whole days.

590
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:30,320
Seven whole days.

591
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,280
Or you're gonna stay here for the rest of your life.

592
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,280
Actually.

593
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,040
Later that year, Carl helped a fellow inmate by the name of Otto Hooker escape from the

594
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,040
prison.

595
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,360
Now that's a name.

596
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:46,920
While attempting to evade recapture, Otto would kill the warden, Harry Mento.

597
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:47,920
What?

598
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:52,680
This event would mark Carl's first known involvement with a murder as an accessory before the fact.

599
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,920
Holy fuck.

600
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,640
In Carl's prison record, which noted his two aliases, Jefferson Davis and Jeff Rose,

601
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,960
he falsely gave his age as 30 and his birthplace as Alabama.

602
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,800
The only truthful thing on his prison record was when he stated his occupation as a thief.

603
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,880
So what do you do for a living?

604
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,880
I'm a thief.

605
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:11,880
Thief.

606
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:13,480
So how old was he actually?

607
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:14,480
25, 26.

608
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,280
Okay, but he said he was 30.

609
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:17,280
Mm-hmm.

610
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,800
Carl would be disciplined dozens of times while at OSP, including 61 days in solitary

611
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,800
confinement.

612
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,400
Can you imagine that?

613
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:26,400
Two fucking months.

614
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,320
So you'll lose your fucking mind.

615
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,760
Carl decided that he was going to escape once and for all on September 18, 1917, at the

616
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,320
age of 26.

617
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,200
After going through a few days of freedom, two shootouts, one in which Carl attempted

618
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:45,240
to shoot Chief Deputy Joseph Frum, Carl was recaptured and returned to the prison.

619
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,120
While on the way to jail, Carl wrestled with the officer, resulting in him being beaten

620
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,440
to the point of unconsciousness.

621
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,440
He would immediately be placed into solitary confinement upon re-entering the prison.

622
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,320
He's just like ruthless.

623
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:58,640
Just a loose cannon.

624
00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:59,640
Yeah.

625
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,720
Like the definition of a loose cannon.

626
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,440
On May 12, 1918, Carl would escape the prison once again by sawing through the window bars

627
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,280
with a hacksaw blade and jumping off the prison walls.

628
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,400
Okay, Bundy.

629
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,880
Upon him exiting the building, guards would begin shooting at Carl, but he would quickly

630
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,520
escape into the woods without suffering any wounds.

631
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:20,520
And he's a big dude too.

632
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,800
Yeah, like there's a lot of room.

633
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,400
I just imagine a big foot.

634
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,480
Yeah, exactly.

635
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,960
Just running into the woods.

636
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,040
Carl is all hairy.

637
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,960
Carl would revert back to his old ways and hop a freight train heading east.

638
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,920
He would shave off his mustache and begin going by the alias John O'Leary.

639
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:41,920
So he was hairy.

640
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,920
Yeah.

641
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,880
From this point on, Carl would not return to the northwest, and he would head east.

642
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,000
Carl would find himself in New York City, and while there, he would get a seaman ID card

643
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,440
and board the steamship James S. Whitney en route to Panama.

644
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,640
Just get out of your system, seaman.

645
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,640
Ha ha ha ha.

646
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,640
Seaman.

647
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:03,640
Seaman.

648
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,640
While there, he attempted to steal a small boat with the help of another sailor while

649
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,040
drunk.

650
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,800
His other sailor had actually killed everybody on board and was arrested, but Carl would

651
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:15,800
remain free.

652
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:16,800
What?

653
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,240
I don't know how he didn't get killed.

654
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,200
Everyone else got killed on board.

655
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,040
Was he just like, I guess, just sneak killing people?

656
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,400
I don't know, I guess so.

657
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,160
That's creepy.

658
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,120
Carl would travel to Peru and begin working in a copper mine.

659
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:36,360
Following this, he would further travel to Chile, Port Arthur, Texas, London, Edinburgh,

660
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,840
Paris and Hamburg.

661
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:38,840
Wow.

662
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:39,840
Hamburg.

663
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:45,640
In 1920, at age 29, Carl found himself back in the US, this time in Newport, Rhode Island.

664
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:51,800
On September 16th, 1920, Carl would burglarize the Taft mansion in New Haven, Connecticut.

665
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,040
Taft?

666
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,120
This was a prior residence of President Taft that had been turned into a historical monument.

667
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,640
Carl would comment that he specifically sought out this place to burglarize because he had

668
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,920
been holding a grudge against President Taft since his incarceration following his dishonorable

669
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:06,920
discharge from the army.

670
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,920
It's like fucking Taft.

671
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,760
I'm just gonna go lay in his bathtub.

672
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,760
He's a big guy too, he'd probably fit it.

673
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:15,760
That's true.

674
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,720
Carl would steal a large amount of jewelry and bonds as well as a.45 caliber handgun

675
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,560
that belonged to Taft.

676
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,640
Carl would use the stolen money to buy a small sailing yacht that was named the Akista.

677
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:29,640
That's crazy.

678
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,440
I had no idea that Carl Pansram had anything to do with President Taft.

679
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,440
He hated him.

680
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:34,440
Damn.

681
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,560
From here, Carl would embark on an eight year long murder spree that spanned several

682
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,400
countries and involved multiple victims.

683
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,200
Carl would sail along the coast towards New York and for three months he would lure sailors

684
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,920
away from port bars onto his yacht, get them intoxicated, sexually assault them and then

685
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,480
kill them with Taft's gun.

686
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,280
Carl would dump the bodies in the water.

687
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,120
In this time and manner, Carl claimed to have killed 10 men.

688
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,360
The murders only came to an end when Akista ran aground and ultimately sank near Atlantic

689
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,360
City, New Jersey.

690
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,360
Whoa.

691
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,360
I know.

692
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,680
He's using Taft's gun to kill people because he hates him that much.

693
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,880
During this event, Carl's last two potential victims were able to escape.

694
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,880
So he had two potential victims on board when the ship ran aground and then they were able

695
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:19,880
to jump off the ship.

696
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760
Yeah, I was going to say they just jumped overboard.

697
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,800
On October 26th, 1920, Carl was arrested in Stamford, Connecticut for burglary and possession

698
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,720
of a loaded handgun.

699
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,920
He would subsequently serve six months in jail the following year.

700
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,240
How many crimes do you think he committed while he was bouncing around?

701
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,680
Oh, a bunch.

702
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:37,680
Like hundreds.

703
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:38,680
Country to country.

704
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:39,680
And here's the thing.

705
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,080
I keep saying he's getting these small stents in prison, but he's using all these aliases.

706
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,160
So it's not like they see this Jeff Baldwin guy and they're like, oh, this guy's been

707
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,800
in prison since he was eight.

708
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,160
It's like this guy's only been arrested one other time or whatever.

709
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,160
Right.

710
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,160
Yeah, that makes sense.

711
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,440
So it makes sense, yeah.

712
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,360
After Carl was released once again, he would hop on a ship to Southern Africa and landed

713
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,280
in Luanda, the capital of Portuguese Angola.

714
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,840
The year is 1921, Carl is about to be 30.

715
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,400
He's only about to be 30.

716
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,720
That sounds like an entire lifetime sort of crime.

717
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,720
Yeah, exactly.

718
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,720
I mean, it is technically, but yeah.

719
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,080
It sounds like he's 60 or something.

720
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,080
Exactly.

721
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,320
Carl became a foreman of an oil rig in Angola, but he would later burn it down out of what

722
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,560
he referred to as quote, spitefulness, end quote.

723
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,920
Carl was later noted as saying about his life, quote, I was so full of hate that there was

724
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,880
no room in me for such feelings as love, pity, kindness, or honor or decency.

725
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,920
My only regret is that I wasn't born dead or not at all, end quote.

726
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:41,920
It's just awful.

727
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:49,160
It sounds like it's just one of those things where he's just so beyond, you know, like

728
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,760
when we talk about in other cases where people instead of becoming suicidal, they become

729
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:53,760
homicidal.

730
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:54,760
Yes, exactly.

731
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,800
It kind of sounds like that a little bit.

732
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:57,800
Definitely.

733
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,880
Shortly after burning the oil rig down, Carl got a new idea in his mind.

734
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,800
He wanted to obtain a young virgin female.

735
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:11,200
Carl paid a family who lived in Angola 80 eschutas, which is about $8 US and about $123

736
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,200
today.

737
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,720
But I thought he wasn't attracted to women.

738
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,800
Yeah, he wasn't.

739
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,040
In exchange, he was given a 12 year old girl whom he raped in his shack later that night.

740
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,320
Oh my God.

741
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,560
He returned the girl to her family following this and demanded his money back due to the

742
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,680
fact that he did not believe she was a virgin.

743
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,160
He raped her.

744
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,400
In response, the family instead gave Carl an eight year old girl whom he also raped

745
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,160
in his shack.

746
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,960
He would return this girl as well and claim the same thing that she was not a virgin

747
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,680
and demanded his money back.

748
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,080
Pretty sure most eight year olds are gonna be virgins.

749
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,520
That's fucking gross.

750
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,840
Carl would claim at this time that he also raped a young local boy, either 11 or 12 and

751
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,520
killed him.

752
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,360
Carl would later confess, quote, his brains were coming out of his ears when I left him

753
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,520
and he will never be any deader, end quote.

754
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:02,520
Oh my God.

755
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:08,080
It's just so removed from reality.

756
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,040
Carl would also claim that around this time he hired a boat with six rowers, shot all

757
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,840
of them and threw their bodies to the crocodiles.

758
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,840
After returning to the US, Carl claimed that he raped and killed two small boys, beating

759
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:25,320
one of them to death with a rock on July 18, 1922 in Salem, Massachusetts.

760
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,960
The other one he stated he strangled near New Haven.

761
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,800
After killing the boys in Salem, Carl began working as a night watchman in Yonkers, New

762
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,760
York at a Beco mill factory.

763
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,280
He would steal a boat around this time and sailed to New Haven on the lookout for new

764
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,200
victims to assault and rob.

765
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:48,520
In June of 1923, Carl stole a yacht belonging to the police chief of New Rochelle, New York.

766
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,280
He would pick up a 15 year old boy by the name of George Wallisini with the promise of

767
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,040
giving him a job on the boat.

768
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,440
Instead, he would sodomize the young boy.

769
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,400
George had no choice but to stay on the boat with Carl following this.

770
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,200
I mean, they're in the middle of the bay or whatever.

771
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:10,320
On June 27, 1922, Carl claimed to have picked up a man on the river near Kingston, New York.

772
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,000
Carl stated that upon approaching the man, he thought the man might try to rob him, so

773
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,400
he shot the man, killing him, and threw his body into a river.

774
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:18,640
Why would he claim that?

775
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:19,640
Like it matters?

776
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,640
Self-defense.

777
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:21,640
I don't know.

778
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:22,640
That one time it was self-defense.

779
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:23,640
Yeah, just one time.

780
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,640
I don't know.

781
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:25,640
So that was one of the self-defense.

782
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,120
Yeah, that guy was an asshole.

783
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,200
The following day, on June 28, Carl and the young boy George docked at Pukipsi, New York,

784
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,640
where Carl stole around $1,000 worth of fishing nets, which would be around $18,000 worth

785
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,680
today.

786
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,760
George not only saw Carl stealing the fishing nets and was assaulted by him, but he had

787
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,000
also witnessed the murder of the man on the river the previous day.

788
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,000
Oh my God.

789
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,640
So once the pair reached Newburgh, New York, George decided that he needed to escape.

790
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,360
He jumped off the boat and swam to shore.

791
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:54,360
Good.

792
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,760
Once safe, George told police that he had been assaulted by a man by the name of Captain

793
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,560
John O'Leary, and an alert went out for the man.

794
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:08,280
Carl would be arrested under this alias on June 29, 1922, in Neac, New York.

795
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,640
Following this, on July 9, Carl would try to escape from jail.

796
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,440
Shocker.

797
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,400
He would later scam his lawyer by selling him a stolen boat and pocketing the cash to bail

798
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,480
himself out.

799
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:19,480
His own lawyer?

800
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:20,480
Yes.

801
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:21,480
He sold his lawyer a stolen boat.

802
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,000
That should be like illegal, right?

803
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,000
Yeah, I would think so.

804
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,400
Like a bribe.

805
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,040
Carl would skip bail and his boat would be confiscated by the government.

806
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,440
So the lawyer was like, fuck man, like that sucks.

807
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,440
He sold me that.

808
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,680
I don't have a client and I don't have a boat.

809
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:41,160
On August 9 of either 1922 or 1923, Carl was in New London searching for a victim to mug

810
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,000
when he spotted a young boy begging for money.

811
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:49,080
He would pull a knife on the child, take him to the woods nearby, and sodomize him.

812
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,080
After spending some time with his victim, Carl would ultimately strangle the boy to

813
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,720
death and sodomize him yet again.

814
00:36:55,720 --> 00:37:00,560
On August 26, John O'Leary would be arrested yet again in large meant New York after breaking

815
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,760
into a train depot.

816
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,720
He would be charged with four counts of burglary and the judge would set his bail at $5,000.

817
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,720
I didn't do a conversion rate for that one.

818
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:10,360
Oh my gosh, that's a lot though.

819
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,560
Probably over a hundred, couple hundred.

820
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,360
A hundred thousand, probably.

821
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Carl would cut a deal with the DA's office in exchange for a lighter sentence if he

822
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,240
pled guilty.

823
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:21,160
Which is like, come on, don't give him a fucking lighter sentence if he's pleading guilty.

824
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,160
Come on.

825
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,160
But his name is O'Leary now.

826
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,600
He's a different person.

827
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,600
Carl would keep up his end of the deal, but the DA would not, and Carl would subsequently

828
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:30,800
be sentenced to five years.

829
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,280
He's like, are you fucking kidding me?

830
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,920
I pled guilty and they're like, psych!

831
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,760
While incarcerated, Carl confessed to another alias of his, Jeff Baldwin, and stated that

832
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,720
he was wanted in Oregon for the murder of a policeman.

833
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:48,200
After first being in prison and sing-sing prison, Carl would be transferred to Clinton

834
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,040
prison in Danimora, New York.

835
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,080
Does that sound familiar?

836
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,080
Danimora?

837
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,960
It's because it's the same prison that Richard Matt and David just escaped from.

838
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,800
So go listen to that episode if you have it, because it's a really good episode.

839
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,120
You mentioned Neera Shal earlier too, and I'm pretty sure that's where Berkowitz was

840
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,120
living.

841
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,200
Yeah, I think so.

842
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,000
Or was born, I think.

843
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,160
Even at this point, inmates referred to the prison as, quote, Danimora the hellhole.

844
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,720
The hellhole?

845
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:19,480
Many of the staff members were related around this time, as they would pass down many generations

846
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,480
of trauma and methods of work attitudes.

847
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,520
It was like a family business almost.

848
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,920
They would treat the inmates like animals that needed to be beaten.

849
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,120
It was a frequent occurrence around this time that inmates would end up leaving the prison

850
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,360
and going to the state hospital for the criminally insane, because the psychological torture

851
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,200
was just too much.

852
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,640
Carl would make his first attempt to escape within the first few months, in which he climbed

853
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,680
one of the high outer walls and fell 30 feet onto the concrete below.

854
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:46,680
Oh my god.

855
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:47,680
Yeah, okay.

856
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,240
It was as if this guy hasn't had enough head trauma.

857
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:51,720
Okay, let's continue.

858
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:52,720
What?

859
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:53,720
That's not funny.

860
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:54,720
I'm so sorry.

861
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:55,720
What?

862
00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,720
He would break both of his legs and ankles.

863
00:38:58,720 --> 00:38:59,720
It's not funny.

864
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:00,720
I'm so sorry.

865
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:07,200
He would break both of his legs and ankles from this fall and badly injure his spine.

866
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,200
That's not a funny sentence at all.

867
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:10,200
It's not funny.

868
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,200
Just imagine.

869
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,200
It's terrible.

870
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,200
Oh my god.

871
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,200
Yeah, where your shins go through your kneecaps.

872
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:18,920
If he fell, oh my god, ow.

873
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,400
If he fell on his head though, he would have died.

874
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,400
He would have died.

875
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,400
Yeah.

876
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:23,560
Where was I?

877
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,560
He would break both of his...

878
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:26,560
Say it again.

879
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:27,560
It's funny.

880
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:28,560
Say it again.

881
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:29,560
Oh my god.

882
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:30,560
This is so crazy.

883
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:31,560
Okay.

884
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,320
Instead of getting Carl medical attention, guards would pick him up and drop him on the

885
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,560
floor in his cell, which is so awful.

886
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,480
So he was left to suffer through those injuries.

887
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:41,480
Yeah.

888
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,360
He was noted as stating about this, quote, I was dumped into a cell without any medical

889
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,080
attention or surgical attention whatsoever.

890
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,000
My broken bones were not set.

891
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,640
My ankles and legs were not put into a cast.

892
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:57,080
The doctor never came near me and no one else was allowed to do anything for me.

893
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,800
At the end of 14 months of constant agony, I was taken to the hospital where I was operated

894
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,880
on for my rupture and one of my testicles was cut off.

895
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:11,720
I suffered more agony, always in pain, crawling around like a snake with a broken back, seething

896
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:14,320
with hatred and a lust for revenge.

897
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:19,160
Five years of this end of life, the last two years and four months confined in isolation

898
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,240
with nothing to do except brood.

899
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,880
I hated everybody I saw end quote.

900
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,880
I mean, that's understandable.

901
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:26,960
I don't, yeah.

902
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,920
Not to like kill someone because of it, but just to have so much loathing for everything.

903
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:31,920
Yeah.

904
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,200
I would probably fucking feel that way too.

905
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,760
I mean, these people probably know what he's done though.

906
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,120
Like, you know, they probably know his, some of his crimes, the crimes that he's probably

907
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,280
confessed to, they can't have him around other inmates anyways.

908
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:46,280
That's true.

909
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:52,200
I mean, I'm not saying he deserved any of that, but I mean, I don't know.

910
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,360
Yeah, it's just a shitty story all around.

911
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,040
If he hurt somebody that I loved, I'd be like, good, you know?

912
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,400
Fucking rot.

913
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,960
Shortly after this surgery, a prison employee witnessed Carl sodomizing a fellow inmate

914
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,920
and he was thrown into solitary confinement.

915
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,120
He would be essentially ignored for the last two years and four months of his sentence.

916
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:13,840
I mean, they wouldn't even talk to him.

917
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:14,840
They would just give him his food.

918
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:22,000
He can't be integrated into any type of a regular normal situation, even in prison,

919
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,840
because he's just gonna hurt people.

920
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,360
Exactly.

921
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,000
Carl would be released from Clinton in July of 1928.

922
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,040
By now he was permanently crippled and had just about lost his mind.

923
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,040
Oh shit.

924
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,640
Within two weeks, Carl would commit several robberies and killed another man in Baltimore.

925
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,080
Even though he's like, I mean, not trying to be rude, but he's probably limping around

926
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,080
and stuff.

927
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,400
I mean, I can be rude against him, I guess.

928
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,400
Yeah, I know.

929
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,400
He's probably just like, I don't know.

930
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,920
He's not in a wheelchair or anything, but yeah, he's definitely has some struggles walking.

931
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,240
But even then, it's like, that doesn't even stop him.

932
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:55,240
Yeah, of course.

933
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:56,240
The pain in his experience.

934
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:57,240
Exactly.

935
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:58,440
He's just so pissed off at the world.

936
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,400
This is like blind rage.

937
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,640
He wants everyone to pay.

938
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,640
On August 30th, 1928, Carl was arrested after burglarizing the home of a dentist 10 days

939
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:08,920
prior.

940
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,040
Three men were also arrested as being his accomplices.

941
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,520
Now he needs help, right?

942
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,040
Carl would give his real name after being arrested, but he lied about his age and birthplace,

943
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,280
claiming that he was 41 and that he was from Nevada.

944
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,480
He was only 37 at this point.

945
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,680
During Carl's interrogation, he confessed to killing three young boys earlier that month,

946
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,360
one in Salem, one in Connecticut, and a 14-year-old boy in Philadelphia.

947
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,920
He also confessed to killing a boy at Pier 28 on League Island, and this was also confirmed.

948
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,920
He's all like, fuck it.

949
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,320
Here's my real name and this is what I've done.

950
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,120
He's like, I might as well just go to prison for the rest of my life, honestly, I think.

951
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,000
At this point, he's probably like, I can't get around like I used to.

952
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,800
I might as well just go to prison.

953
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,360
Boston police were unable to corroborate his other confession, which was the murder of

954
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,120
a boy in Charleston, Massachusetts.

955
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,920
Carl would later write that he had contemplated mass murders and other heinous acts, such

956
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,120
as poisoning a whole city's water supply with arsenic, or creating a fuss between ships

957
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:05,120
to start a war.

958
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,120
What?

959
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,320
He's like, oh, this is boring now.

960
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:09,320
Yeah.

961
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,520
Due to his extensive criminal record, Carl would be sentenced to 25 years to life, arriving

962
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,800
at Leavenworth federal penitentiary as inmate number 31614.

963
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:23,000
Upon his arrival, Carl was noted as telling the warden, quote, I'll kill the first man

964
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,640
that bothers me, end quote.

965
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,320
I'd be like, yes, sir?

966
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:27,320
Yes, sir.

967
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,320
You go ahead.

968
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:29,320
Soltry.

969
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:30,320
Lights out.

970
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,440
The prison would dub Carl, quote, too psychotic, end quote, to be around any other inmates,

971
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,080
so they would have him work alone in the laundry room.

972
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:42,200
However, the four men, Robert Warnke, was known to bully and harass prisoners under him, and

973
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,360
it was not long before he began messing with Carl.

974
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,080
I don't want to do that.

975
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,200
Carl allegedly warned Robert to back off, but he would be relentless.

976
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,520
On June 20th, 1929, Carl would beat Robert to death with an iron bar.

977
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,320
The trial for this murder would begin on April 14th, 1930, where Carl limped into the courtroom

978
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,240
defiantly and refused counsel.

979
00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:07,560
When the judge asked for how he pled, Carl was noted as snaring and stating, quote, not

980
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,920
guilty, end quote.

981
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:15,880
The prosecutor would call the warden, five guards, and 10 fellow prisoners as witnesses.

982
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,040
During the witness testimonies, Carl was known as smiling at them.

983
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,720
Like, just a little prisoner over here.

984
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:24,080
So he was like, these are all the people that witness this?

985
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,040
Yeah, or like, maybe like character witnesses.

986
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,880
The jury would deliberate for only 45 minutes before delivering a guilty verdict.

987
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,200
Following this, Carl was tried for this crime and was sentenced to death.

988
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,480
The judge remanded, I'm sorry, not tried, but sentenced.

989
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,400
The judge remanded Carl back to Leavenworth until September 5th, 1930, where he would

990
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,440
be taken to the gallows to be hung.

991
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,400
Upon hearing his sentence, Carl seemed to be relieved, almost happy.

992
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,160
Carl refused to allow any appeals of his sentence and would become upset if anyone that was

993
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,280
anti-death penalty tried to argue for him.

994
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,280
Oh shit.

995
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,040
He's like, just let them fucking kill me.

996
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,280
I just want to die.

997
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,160
He would state about this, quote, the only thing so you and your kind will ever get

998
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,400
from me for your efforts on my behalf is that I wish you all had one neck and that I could

999
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,680
have my hands around it, end quote.

1000
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:22,080
Oh, that's crazy, not crazy, but you know, I mean, that's just how he's like, don't

1001
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,080
argue for me.

1002
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:31,920
Don't argue for me and yeah, he just, the amount of rage and the amount of like, resentment,

1003
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,680
I guess.

1004
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,200
Carl was known as making comments to guards about killing children almost as soon as he

1005
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,280
entered the prison.

1006
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,200
It was also around this time that Carl met a 26 year old rookie guard by the name of

1007
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,440
Henry Lesser.

1008
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,680
Henry had just started working at the jail that same year and he remembered having an

1009
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:54,400
urge to approach Carl and ask him about the nature of his crimes.

1010
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,360
Carl responded that he, quote, reformed people, end quote.

1011
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:03,040
He's taking it from that first place that he went to, the reform school, yeah.

1012
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,840
Over the next few weeks, Henry would notice that Carl was always angry and never around

1013
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,680
any other people.

1014
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,860
For an unknown reason, Henry took pity on Carl and would begin to befriend him by giving

1015
00:46:12,860 --> 00:46:14,960
him a dollar to buy cigarettes and food.

1016
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,480
Please don't tell me this guy dies.

1017
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,720
Carl and Henry would strengthen their friendship over time and Henry would eventually provide

1018
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:25,120
Carl with writing materials, encouraging him to write an autobiography.

1019
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:29,040
This is also what, like I said, where I'm getting the direct quotes from.

1020
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,920
Carl would use the contraband items to write his story in detail, starting from the beginning

1021
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,400
on the Minnesota farm.

1022
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,680
He began the autobiography with the quote,

1023
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,080
In my lifetime, I have murdered 21 human beings.

1024
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:46,160
I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons, and last but

1025
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,640
not least, I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings.

1026
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,320
For all these things, I am not in the least bit sorry.

1027
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,200
I have no conscience, so that does not worry me, end quote.

1028
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,080
That is so heavy.

1029
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,200
First little opening paragraph there.

1030
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,200
Yeah.

1031
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,680
I'd be like, okay, we're not reading this.

1032
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,720
And bedtime stories over kids.

1033
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:10,040
Through his writings, Carl had to relive the horror of his childhood.

1034
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,720
But in his nearly 20,000 word confession, he would give precise details of his murders,

1035
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,800
which were later confirmed by authorities.

1036
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,600
During the years of 1900 to 1930, while Carl was at the peak of his criminal career, it

1037
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,720
was pretty easy to evade arrest.

1038
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:28,760
All you pretty much had to do was keep your mouth shut and change your name.

1039
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,520
Carl was also noted as stating in his writings, quote,

1040
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,680
All of my associates, all of my surroundings, the atmosphere of deceit, treachery, brutality,

1041
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:41,760
degeneracy, hypocrisy, and everything that is bad and nothing that is good.

1042
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,160
Why am I what I am?

1043
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,360
I'll tell you why.

1044
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,400
I did not make myself what I am.

1045
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,840
Others had the making of me, end quote.

1046
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:49,840
He's kind of like philosophical.

1047
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:50,840
All right.

1048
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:51,840
It's kind of deep.

1049
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:52,840
It's so, yeah, right?

1050
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:58,160
I mean, especially for a guy who didn't have a lot of education, although he did travel

1051
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:59,160
a lot.

1052
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,160
True.

1053
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,120
Carl would try to escape this jail early on as well and assaulted three guards when

1054
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,720
they removed him from his cell.

1055
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:10,600
On October 29th, an arrest warrant arrived for Carl on a murder indictment in Philly

1056
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:16,080
for the homicide of Alexander Yusuke on July 26th, 1928.

1057
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,520
Two witnesses to the crime were able to positively identify Carl as the perpetrator.

1058
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,920
Oh, what's that big guy over there?

1059
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,360
Carl would later write about this crime, quote,

1060
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:30,140
I made a full confession of this murder of McMahon and, sorry, McMahon.

1061
00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:33,720
You send a number of witnesses from Salem to identify me, which they'd done.

1062
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:36,280
I do not change my former confession in any way.

1063
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,760
I committed that murder.

1064
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,480
I alone am guilty.

1065
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,840
I not only committed that murder, but 21 besides, and I assure you here and now that if I ever

1066
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,280
get free and have the opportunity, I shall sure knock off another 22, end quote.

1067
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:49,280
He's like, yeah, no.

1068
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:50,280
So you do not let me out.

1069
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:51,280
Yeah.

1070
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:52,280
But don't.

1071
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,280
Keep me away, please.

1072
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:58,160
With his execution date already set, Carl remained in Leavenworth until September 5th.

1073
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,120
This day was noted as being a cold and dusty morning, and corrections officers would take

1074
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:07,200
Carl from his cell at 5.55 AM, escorting him to the gallows.

1075
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:13,400
The only witnesses to Carl's execution were a few newspaper journalists and about 12 COs.

1076
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,400
That's it.

1077
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,040
No victim families or anything.

1078
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,040
Nope.

1079
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,280
Carl was noted as cursing his mother for bringing him into the world.

1080
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,080
Escorted by two U.S. marshals, Carl would climb the steps to the platform, and as the

1081
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,880
marshals attempted to place the black hood over his head, he spit in the executioner's

1082
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,600
face and stated his last words, quote, hurry up, you hooser bastard.

1083
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,360
I could kill 10 men while you're fooling around, end quote.

1084
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:38,360
That's the quote.

1085
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,560
That's why I said derogatory language in the content warning.

1086
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,080
That is obviously derogatory term, but that's what he said.

1087
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,440
That's like just defiant to the last second.

1088
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:49,440
The last second.

1089
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:50,440
He's like, fuck you.

1090
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:51,440
You won't.

1091
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:52,440
Flicking him off.

1092
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:53,440
I'm fucking out.

1093
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:59,120
Dr. Justin K. Fuller pronounced Carl Panzerham dead at 6.18 a.m.

1094
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,040
Nobody would come to claim Carl's body, leaving the prison staff to cart him to the cemetery

1095
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,320
in a wheelbarrow and put in a solitary plot.

1096
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,040
It was a big-ass wheelbarrow.

1097
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:12,240
The only ID on the gravestone was the number 31614.

1098
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,920
Former prison guard Henry Lesser would preserve Carl's letters and autobiographer manuscript,

1099
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,160
which he spent four years trying to have published.

1100
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,720
In 1980, Lesser donated Carl's materials to the San Diego State University, where they

1101
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:27,800
are kept as the quote, Carl Panzerham papers in the library.

1102
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,400
Is this Henry the guard?

1103
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:30,400
Wow.

1104
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,080
He really like super bonded with him.

1105
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:34,080
Yeah.

1106
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,400
There's no true diagnosis for Carl, but professionals have been known to refer to him as a full-blown

1107
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:38,400
psychopath.

1108
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:39,800
But that's the story.

1109
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:40,800
That's all of it.

1110
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,600
I was like, it sounded like it was going to keep going.

1111
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:44,600
The last line.

1112
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:45,600
He's a psychopath.

1113
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:46,600
Yeah.

1114
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:47,600
Anyway.

1115
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:48,600
Yeah.

1116
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,560
I feel like there's not much else I can really say.

1117
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:53,560
I know.

1118
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,600
And the thing is, when you think about these crimes, you would think this would be a two-hour

1119
00:50:58,600 --> 00:50:59,600
episode.

1120
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:00,600
Yeah.

1121
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:01,600
But it's just so fact-based.

1122
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:02,600
It's like, here's what I did.

1123
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:03,600
Here's what I did.

1124
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:04,600
Here's what I did.

1125
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:05,600
Here's what I did.

1126
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:06,600
Here's what I did.

1127
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:07,600
Here's what I did.

1128
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:08,600
Here's what I did.

1129
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:09,600
Here's what I did.

1130
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:10,600
Here's what I did.

1131
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:11,600
Here's what I did.

1132
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:12,600
Here's what I did.

1133
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:13,600
Here's what I did.

1134
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:14,600
And then I'm dead.

1135
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:15,600
They definitely felt kind of Bundy-ish, where there's no real, although Bundy would be operating

1136
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:16,600
40, 50 years later.

1137
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:21,080
But there really isn't, I guess it's just like, it would be a more modern-day telling

1138
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,080
of that.

1139
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,080
Yeah.

1140
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:24,600
You know, Bundy very much just could not stop.

1141
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:25,600
It was a compulsion.

1142
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:26,600
Yeah.

1143
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,480
And he had no compassion and no empathy.

1144
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,320
And I don't know how angry Ted Bundy was.

1145
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:35,320
Probably pretty angry.

1146
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:36,320
Yeah.

1147
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,600
But yeah, Carl just got the raw end of the stick immediately.

1148
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:41,600
Yeah, definitely.

1149
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,840
However, I mean, yes, he did have excruciating circumstances growing up.

1150
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,080
He was also one of like, what, like six or seven kids, the sources kind of varied.

1151
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:55,560
And as far as we know, no one else in this situation became even remotely similar to

1152
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:56,560
him.

1153
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,640
However, he also experienced the reform school and all that stuff as well.

1154
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:01,640
Yeah.

1155
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:06,800
Again, not saying it's an excuse, but the rage makes sense in my opinion.

1156
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:07,800
The rage.

1157
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,840
The youngest too, and he got picked on by not only his parents, but his siblings as well.

1158
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:11,840
That's true.

1159
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,840
Yeah.

1160
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,640
It's a horrible, horrible story, a series of unfortunate events.

1161
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:19,520
That's just, ugh.

1162
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,720
It's like, again, it's one of those like, you want to feel bad for the kid, but the

1163
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:24,600
adult made all the decisions.

1164
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,480
I just wish, I mean, this sounds kind of bad, but I just wish he had only realized what

1165
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,920
he did at the end earlier so that he would have not killed so many people.

1166
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,320
But yeah, I know it's just horrible.

1167
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,640
And I mean, his MO like doesn't even really make sense to me.

1168
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,440
Like it's just like anyone and everyone, like anybody that can be seen as potentially

1169
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,040
vulnerable, like cool, that's my victim.

1170
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,040
Right.

1171
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,200
But yeah, that's Carl Panzram.

1172
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,000
I'm really interested to look into that book.

1173
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,000
Yeah.

1174
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,800
Because it sounds, especially if he wrote it.

1175
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:53,800
Yeah.

1176
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,560
I don't know if it's, I honestly don't even know if it's a book.

1177
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:56,560
I didn't really look it up.

1178
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,160
I know it's obviously an autobiography.

1179
00:52:58,160 --> 00:52:59,800
I don't know what kind of form it is though.

1180
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,840
I don't know if it's just online or if it's like a hard copy or whatever.

1181
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,360
Is it like more of a journal than it is?

1182
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:05,720
Yeah, I just, I don't know.

1183
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:09,840
Like I said, I pulled from sources that like quoted the autobiography.

1184
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,560
I didn't pull from the actual autobiography.

1185
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:12,560
Right.

1186
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:13,560
Yeah.

1187
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:14,560
But yeah, that's our episode.

1188
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,480
And I actually told Hillary from Lady of Scare in us.

1189
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:17,680
I gave her a spoiler alert.

1190
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,200
I told her that I was doing this like a week ago because she just gave me a spoiler alert

1191
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,040
on their episode about Gypsy.

1192
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:28,320
So yeah, Hillary, I actually requested this for, I recommended her do this episode a long

1193
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:29,640
time ago and she just didn't.

1194
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,440
And so she's, I'm glad that she's here listening.

1195
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:32,440
I know she is.

1196
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:33,440
She's just your challenge.

1197
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:34,440
Yeah.

1198
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:35,440
Hopefully you like this episode.

1199
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,440
And if you want to cover it, cover it because I want to hear your side.

1200
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:38,440
Yeah.

1201
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:39,440
That's it.

1202
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:40,440
All right.

1203
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,960
Well, until next time, we will see you guys back for another mental breakdown on Monday.

1204
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:44,960
Yeah.

1205
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:45,960
Oh my gosh, this month.

1206
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:46,960
I know.

1207
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:47,960
It's just gone by.

1208
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:48,960
I know.

1209
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:49,960
It's just nuts.

1210
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:50,960
So yeah, we'll see you next week.

1211
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:51,960
Okay.

1212
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:53,960
And be looking forward to that tier two, three Patreon episode on the 29th.

1213
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:54,960
Yes.

1214
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:55,960
Okay.

1215
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:56,960
Love you.

1216
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:57,960
Love you.

1217
00:53:57,960 --> 00:53:58,960
Bye.

1218
00:53:58,960 --> 00:53:59,960
Bye.

1219
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:04,440
Looking for a new perfume or cologne to match your style?

1220
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,160
Centbird has got you covered.

1221
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:10,560
With over 600 cents to fall in love with, Centbird is a fragrance subscription box that

1222
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,840
will give you plenty of choices.

1223
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,680
Just choose what you would like from their best sellers, activate your subscription,

1224
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,880
and receive your first 120 spray bottle.

1225
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:38,280
Click the link in the show notes now to receive an exclusive offer with Centbird.