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Hello!

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Hello!

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Welcome back to another episode of Diagnosing a Killer.

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I'm Koelle.

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And I'm Kenna.

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How does it sound?

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It sounds okay.

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Yeah, are you struggling?

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I'm not struggling.

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I'm okay.

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How do I sound?

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Great.

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Okay, good.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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We've had some...

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Well, I'm sure if you've been here from the beginning, you know that we always have

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software problems.

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Yeah.

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Do I sound like software?

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Software.

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Damn, I can't hear myself.

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You're right.

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We have software problems all the time and dated for a class that I'm taking this semester

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and somehow it fucked up our recording software.

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And every time we talked, it was like static and then we listened back and we sounded like

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robots.

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Monsters.

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It's like roofer, roofer, roofer, roofer, roofer.

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And so for the life of us, we couldn't figure it out.

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And so now we're using Koelle's laptop to record.

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But there's this lag.

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And so I can hear myself like an echo almost as I'm talking.

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Yeah.

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So if I fuck up, it's because of that.

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And you're not even wearing a headset because you were like, I can't do this.

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I can't.

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Yeah.

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It was like hearing myself talk to myself while I'm trying to talk.

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That's...

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And it was...

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Yeah.

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It was messing up my words.

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That's exactly how it sounds.

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such a control freak, I cannot not listen to it as it's happening because I'm

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gonna be like oh my god I sound weird. Yeah. So anyway, that's what's going on

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with us. Yeah. Do you want to give everyone our handles? Sure, you can check us out

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on any social media platform at Diagnostea Killer other than X which is

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formally Twitter, diagnosis. You can check us out on Patreon. We have a Patreon

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exclusive coming out on the 29th. You get that bonus episode every month on the

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29th. Very excited about that one. January 29th. Special day, special day.

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It's a good day. Email us, send us your case recommendations. I have a whole list going

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about case recommendations so let us know what you want to hear especially

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mental breakdown wise because we need some more info about that or a little

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more advice I guess. Yeah. I don't know we don't need advice, we want advice. We want

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your input. Yeah, we like listening to y'all as well. Definitely. If you guys

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want to support us monetarily you can do so through a cash app. Patreon you can

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also do a one-time custom donation if you'd like. We also have Venmo, what did I

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say, cash app, PayPal. All the good stuff. All the platforms mostly. Yeah,

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definitely. And I know it's your case and I'm excited to hear who you're doing but

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I do want to talk about a couple of DMs that we got on Instagram lately. So one

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of them is from a listener named Amanda. She says so obsessed. Thanks for the ad.

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I do need to sleep though seriously. Love you ladies. I love the psychology aspect

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of all the episodes. Can I be your best friend? Hell yeah. Yes, absolutely. And then

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we got another one from a Suzanne. She commented on our story posts that asked

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how often or what time of day people listen to and she said I'd listen all

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day every day if I could. Love you. Aww. We love you both and thanks for reaching

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out. We always love to hear from people that listen to us because we still have

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embossed your syndrome and we think that people don't listen to us. That's true. Thank you.

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If you guys didn't check out our Merchie merch forums yet, check those out. We

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just updated those to have Slim Can or for Slim Can Coosie. Yes. So I'm excited.

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I'm using one right now. Same. You ready? Yes. Today we are going to talk about

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Ezra McCandless. Okay. Do you know who Ezra McCandless is? I feel like I've heard

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the name before but I'm definitely gonna need a refresher. Well I'm gonna tell

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you. Okay. Content warning. This episode describes details of emotional and

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mental abuse, termination of pregnancy, depression, sexual assault, rape

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allegations, self-harm, and struggles with identity. If this episode is not for you,

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we encourage you to check out another one of our episodes. Remember that you are

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mentally healthy and important to us and we love you. Love you. Bye. Dizzy. Yeah,

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it's a lot. And what's crazy is that this story is not even that long. Okay.

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Let's hear it. Ezra McCandless was born Monica J on October 6, 2007 to her

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mother Rosalena Gunelson who was just 14 years old at the time of Monica's

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birth. Oh wow. Monica would never come to know who her biological father was. She

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was born in Stanley, Wisconsin which is only a population of about 3,600. Mm-hmm.

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And it's about an hour and a half away from any major city. The nearest city is

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actually Minneapolis, Minnesota and that's how small it is. It's like, what did I

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say? It was like an hour and a half. Yeah. Dang, we're gonna be there in a couple

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years by the way. Minnesota? Yeah, yeah. Minnesota. Minneapolis. Isn't that, is

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there the Dahmer Museum there? No. Yes. Or is that Milwaukee? No, it's Milwaukee. We

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always get them confused. Every time. Because we were like Milwaukee and Memphis.

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Milwaukee and Memphis. Makes no sense. I love that song. So Monica and her mother

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would be alone together until Monica was about four when a man that her mother

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was dating named Jo Shane Carlin married Rosalina and adopted Monica.

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Jo Shane. Jo Shane. It's like two names. It's not even hyphenated. It's J-O-S-H-A-N-E.

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It's not even got, not even hyphenated, not even apostrophe, nothing. Jo Shane.

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Interesting, right? They called them. They called them Jo. Yeah, I'm sure. Hey, Jo Shane.

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Monica J was then Monica Carlin after he adopted Monica. Monica grew up calling

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Jo Shane her father and it was the only father that she had would ever know her

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whole life. Jo Shane tried to be a supportive father, however Monica

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recalls him being very nitpicky and unpredictable in his behavior. She

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described her parents as almost like having two tornadoes in one household.

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Oh my gosh, that's awful. Well, I mean Monica's mom is so young too, you know.

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Yeah. Mother worked a lot of hours and would often be left to be disciplined by

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Jo Shane, although her mother was very adamant that Jo Shane not discipline

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Monica like at all. Oftentimes it led to quite a few arguments between the two.

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Monica recalled her father calling her stupid and slow at one point in her life.

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She was mostly emotionally abused, although the threat of Jo Shane throwing

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something was enough to make Monica shut down when the family would argue. Oh my

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god. And it's just the three of them. Yeah, that's awful. Monica fell at a young age

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that she was able to dissociate from reality, given her exposure to

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this hostile environment growing up. By the age of 12, her parents would divorce

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and the three would separate. Monica rarely seen Jo Shane throughout her

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childhood, although they would keep in touch every once in a while. So I know I

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said just 12, but back when Monica was five and all throughout her young life,

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she loved art. She was very interested in art. Monica considered herself to be

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otherworldly even though she had never traveled and she was also very young. She

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acted older than she was and considered herself to be like a booksmart reader and

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very cultured. She claimed that her favorite book was written by Christopher

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McCandless into the wild. When in fact, Christopher McCandless did not write this

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book, he was simply the subject of it and it was written by John Krocauer.

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Our apologies. As we said, we're using new recording software and we just

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realized that it was cutting our voices so bluntly at the beginning of each new

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like time we started recording. So that's why you're hearing all these weird

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sound cuts. We figured it out hopefully and we're gonna try not to let it happen

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again for the rest of the episode. Back to the episode. A full-length feature

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film was released in 2007 which was directed by Sean Penn and it starred

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Emile Hirsch whose portrayal of McCandless brought countless award

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nominations. Monica was inspired by Chris McCandless's nomadic lifestyle and

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his minimalist idealizations. Through high school, Monica began to explore

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her gender identity. Her time throughout high school, she would describe herself as

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more masculine representing and therefore began to use he, him, pronouns. On

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vacation, she found the name Ezra which was more neutral somewhere along the trip

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and the trip was one to remember and she kind of wanted to hang on to that name

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as a representation of that trip. Some time after this vacation, Monica came

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to her parents to ask for a name change which they agreed in order to provide

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Ezra with more gender affirming care. This included changing her last name and

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she was now Ezra McCandless. And I would like to say that throughout her entire,

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the duration of her entire trial, she is referred to as she. She did not have her

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gender changed or anything like that so for the sake of this podcast, I just

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want to make sure that I'm not dead naming her completely because later on

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she also refers to herself as Monica and she her pronouns as well. Ezra

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continued to practice her art all throughout high school and this is

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essentially all she focused on. So when she graduated in college, she worked for

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a professor of the arts and was able to hang some of her own art in a gallery as

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well. But soon Ezra longed to leave her home in pursuit of a living more

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independent lifestyle perhaps in parallel to Chris McCandless's life. Ezra

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made the decision to drop out of college and travel to Eau Claire, Wisconsin which

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has a population of nearly 70,000 which was way more than Ezra was used to. Yeah,

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giant change. Yeah. Although Eau Claire is still considered small by most city

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goers, Ezra found that the college age community was enough to support her in

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her need of being accepted and fulfilled socially and she would regularly

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make trips to Eau Claire just to get away. She was this cool kind of gender-fluid

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individual who dressed differently and was seemingly of high mind. Most people

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thought Ezra was older than just 19 years old as she seemed to be an

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intellectual and a well-rounded person. Okay. After attending a music festival in

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early July, this would be 2017, Ezra was perched on a bench outside of a local

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coffee shop down Water Street in Eau Claire called Racy Delaines, affectionately

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called Racies by their diverse group of regulars. We have a Water Street but it's

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a restaurant in Corpus. Oh yeah. It's really good. The oysters are so good. This is

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just Water Street. The shop was closed at the time that Ezra arrived however she

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decided to sit outside in order to use the Wi-Fi and she didn't have a cell phone

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at this point. She used an old iPod. Oh, wow. Yeah, I know right? She's so different.

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So she used this iPod to communicate with friends or family. That was me though.

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I remember if my phone was broken or something when I was in high school I

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would have to use an iPod because you can text on them as long as you have Wi-Fi.

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Right. I think she was even able to maintain an Instagram and she did

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have a phone but for whatever reason she didn't have an account or

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something or maybe it was a pay-as-you-go or something. Yeah, I didn't pay for it.

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A man by the name of Jason Mangle passed by letting out a big sigh. 34-year-old

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Jason Mangle was serving in the Army National Guard for the last seven years.

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He worked a little out of town and would regularly ride his bike to work. On his

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way back into town that night he passed by Races and hopes that he can make it

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in time for a cup of coffee before closed. However on his way into town he

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unfortunately got a flat tire. Jason would just barely make it in time for

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Alex Woodworth, the night shift employee at Races to see him pull up and instead

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of tossing out the coffee for the night Alex decided to hand Jason a cup of

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coffee for his troubles. Oh, that was sweet. Then he locked the door behind him.

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Ezra was still sitting on the bench and she acknowledged Jason asking why the

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long face and the two began to talk. Time flew as the two got to know each other

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and eventually they would exchange information that night. Excuse me.

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Tell us the world is done.

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Jason believed that at the time Ezra was much older than 19. The two would share a

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13-year age gap. Oh, yikes. And given that Ezra was only in town for one night due

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to the festival, Jason just felt the situation lended the idea that

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Ezra was just older because she just drove in for this festival and she's

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hanging out on a bench by herself instead of a coffee shop. Super, unfortunately,

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like some of our listeners can't relate but as a young girl growing up and a

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young woman growing up, independence is mistaken as maturity like when you're

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in your 18s. That's so true. It's like, yeah, I can go to a restaurant and sit

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down by myself and now all of a sudden I'm 30 when I was really like 20.

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Yeah, so we absolutely thought that Ezra was older and everybody else had

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noticed it too because she talked about, you know, Chris McCandless and you know,

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she's got this interesting name and she's gender fluid and yeah. So remember

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that Ezra is relatively new to the area and the Races crowd was kind of a

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tight-knit group. So if anyone had known Ezra, this is another reason why Jason

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was like, oh, she must be older because she like drives through here.

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Essentially if anyone knew Ezra, they probably would have said, this is Ezra,

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she's part of the group now, you know? Yeah. So over the course of a week, however,

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the two would talk nonstop and they quickly became boyfriend and girlfriend

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in just a week or so. Ezra would integrate herself into the Races crowd

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and then Races was kind of connected to this place called the Nucleus which

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served food, the joint was down the street and other establishments that were

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along Water Street were kind of the hub of this core group of regulars. So it's

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like 6th Street without all the nuts. Yeah, I just found myself literally being

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like, oh this Jason guy must be bad news. I was like, wait a second, I forgot because

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I've been listening to so many different podcasts lately. I just forget that like

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Aris gives it away at the time of the talk. Who's the purpose? This Jason guy.

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It's probably the killer. He's such a jerk. Within a month of dating, Ezra began to tell

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Jason of her housing issues with her family and she was still kind of like

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going back and forth between her mothers and her fathers and Stanley. She wished to

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go back to school but wasn't stable enough at the time to do so. She definitely

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didn't want to go back to school in Stanley. This struck at the heart of

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Jason who spoke with his roommate and the two came up with an agreement that

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Ezra would stay with them provided that she begins to work and split rent three

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ways. Makes sense. I mean that's fair. His roommate's name is also Alex, so this is

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Alex Zink. It's a different Alex than the guy that works at RACES. So Ezra

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packed up her 2003 Chevy and Paula and headed to Eau Claire with all of her

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things. She's so independent. I know. Isn't she? She just packs up and leaves. It's Ezra.

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She's nomadic. She must be older. She must be older. Jason would see that Ezra was an

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amazing artist and it became very important to Jason that Ezra pursue her

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art and further her education in school with art. So Jason and his roommate Alex

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made further... Sorry your computer just made a noise and it scared the shit out of me

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because I'm wearing headphones and you're not. Please continue. I haven't heard that noise before.

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It's so different. Yeah. That's funny. Go ahead. Jason and his roommate Alex made

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further adjustments when Ezra wasn't able to make rent with her part-time job at a

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fabric store. The two, especially Jason, still believed that eventually Ezra

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would pick herself up and be successful in art. Yeah. So the roommate also

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agreed with Jason that Ezra would just help out with whatever she could,

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whether it be rent or utilities, groceries, something. Yeah, he's like,

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don't worry. She's not a freeloading asshole or anything. She's mature. She's older.

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She's older. That's awful. Although Ezra couldn't help necessarily with rent or

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utilities, it seemed that around Christmas time Ezra spared no expense when it

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came to gifts. Here's this diamond ring I brought you. I bought you. I bought you

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this diamond ring. I don't have these gifts for you even though I don't pay

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rent even though I am, bro. There you go. Jason and his roommate Alex began to

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eventually feel the financial strain of having an extra person in the house. Yeah.

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But through all of this, the relationship continued and Jason would

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eventually meet Ezra's family. So this became serious. It's not just like, you

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can just stay with me. I think he had a really big heart when it came to Ezra.

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On August 8th, 2007, Ezra formally met Racy's night shift barista Alex Woodworth,

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the man that had given Jason coffee that one night. This was down at a place

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called The Joint, which was down the street from Racy's. There is where she

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saw Alex Woodworth journaling, sitting alone. Alex Woodworth was born at January

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1st, 1994. He is the New Year's baby. The 24-year-old had recently graduated with a

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bachelor's in philosophy and biology and was excited to continue his education

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and philosophy by pursuing his master's at the University of Oregon. Oh wow. Really

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smart dude. Yeah. Ezra recalls asking Alex how he could possibly concentrate in

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such a busy establishment as The Joint. It was a bar that was filled with young

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people, pinball machines, and a vintage jukebox. Alex shared his writings with

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Ezra and she was immediately impressed. Alex at the time had been writing down

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his thoughts on cannibalism, not the act specifically, but he used this as a

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metaphor, like philosophically. It's like to-do list. Step one, cannibalize

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someone. Ezra found this topic exciting as it was a gritty random type of subject

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and it's kind of the stuff that hip young kids would be into. I mean I'm kind

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of into like learning about the philosophy behind it. I'd be like hell yeah I'll

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read this. Yeah he was mostly talking about the consumption of someone and

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what it means to like be consumed by someone, but metaphorically not like-

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He's not Domer. He puts it really in my mind. Okay Domer. Okay Domer. Got some popsicles in my basement.

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Oh no that's family guy. Got some rat meat in my freezer.

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Got some popsicles in my basement. Herbert the pervert. So the two talked for

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about an hour, Ezra and Alex, discussing various topics, but at some point Jason

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arrived at the joint in an effort to locate Ezra. He was looking at Ezra,

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looking for Ezra at Races or yeah just around the area. He noticed that his

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partner and Alex were talking and the two looked a little too comfortable, which

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made Jason feel uncomfortable. In fact oftentimes he felt suspicious of

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Ezra and Alex's relationship. Jason approached Ezra and Alex, I mean

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eventually he would feel that way. Jason approached Ezra and Alex and

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interrupted the two and Ezra would later say that she felt that the

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conversation was going well and it did feel somewhat disrespectful that Jason

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interrupted the conversation seemingly out of jealousy. She was like I wasn't done

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with my conversation and he interrupted on purpose so that he could disrupt

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whatever we were talking about. I've been on both sides of that I think where I'm

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like I'm having like a really good conversation about a very innocent

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topic but I'm just really excited about it. Like I wanted to learn more and I

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want to share more you know and then someone's to come up to me and then like

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hey what the fuck but I've also been the person that's like hey what the fuck.

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You know what I mean? Like you're having too much fun. Yeah we mature, we grow.

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But Ezra's so mature, she's still grown up. Right. So Ezra would brush this off

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with Jason and would continue spending the evening talking to Alex. The two would

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exchange information and at the time the two would remain friends. Late September

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2017 Ezra would come to realize that she was pregnant. Oh no. She bought a

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pregnancy test that confirmed her suspicions and on October 6th Ezra's

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20th birthday. She and Jason would travel to Minneapolis and have an abortion.

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Oh man. But it wasn't his kid though so. It was. Oh sorry that was ugly. I thought I

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was like plonked towards his eyes. After terminating the pregnancy

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Ezra would say quote I felt very empty after. It hurt emotionally and physically

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and it made me feel alone and very empty and quote. Oh god I can't even imagine.

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Ezra did not allow Jason to be in the room while she had her procedure. Although

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Jason paid for the procedure he insisted that he did not coerce Ezra into

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having an abortion and that he believed that a woman should have the right to

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make that own decision, her own decision. So he was going to just be in a supportive

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role wherever he could. Yeah. Ezra said that the reason that she felt that she

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needed to terminate the pregnancy was that Jason had expressed on multiple

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occasions that he did not wish or care for children. Oh wow. Either way after

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the termination Ezra and Jason became very distant. Jason began sleeping on

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the couch and they very rarely shared any physical intimacy. Jason said this was

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due to the depression that he and Ezra were both experiencing over the

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termination of their pregnancy albeit separately. Yeah. Ezra claimed that Jason

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started to become controlling and he would snap at her about things around

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the house. He became very micromanager-y with her gaslighting her and would

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overall be just unapproachable. She likened it to living with her

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father, Joe Shane. Wow. Jason in an effort to keep their relationship afloat

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often tried to include Ezra and his friends game nights but this was short

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lived. Ezra would lose interest in going out to game nights and at least on one

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occasion she actually threatened self-harm if Jason were to go without her. Oh my

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gosh. And Jason said that she had become to seem or had seemed to become very

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manic and have a lot of anxiety and that she would acquire this anxiety very

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easily. How old is she? 20. Sounds like the beginning of borderline potentially.

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Ezra would accuse Jason of talking shit about her to his friends and like

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whenever he would go to game night alone. Keep in mind that these are some of

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Jason's closest friends, one being Jason's best friend of five years, John

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Hampson and his wife at the time. Jason and John were exceptionally close first

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bonding over their military service. John and Ezra did seem to get along however

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despite her accusations of Jason's friends not liking her. On one occasion

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Jason came home to hear commotion inside of his apartment and peering through the

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window he saw John and Ezra horse playing in the living room kind of like

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played wrestling or fighting or something. Jason said at the time he did not feel

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that A. Ezra wasn't any real danger after all this was his best friend not a

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stranger and B. Nothing untoward was happening between John and Ezra. Again

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this is his best friend who's married and not some stranger. Yeah and she talks

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shit about him so she obviously doesn't like him. John? Yeah. Yeah. She's like oh

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you talked shit about me and your friends and they probably talked shit about

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they talked shit about me you talked shit about me to them. Yeah and she's like

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clearly has her guard up about this guy. Right but then yeah but they're just wrestling. I wouldn't

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wrestle someone that I didn't really care for. Yeah. Like get the fuck away from me.

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Nonetheless Jason saw this through the window but he felt so comfortable in

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both of those facts that he felt like neither of them would do anything. He

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actually finished his cigarette outside before he even entered the home. I'm sure

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it's fine. I'm sure it's fine. So he said it wasn't an awkward feeling at all

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when he entered the residence. Oh no stop. Feeling alone and distant from her

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partner Ezra would frequent racies on a regular basis. Often when Jason would

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either work late or be out of town for work. Ezra would hang out all night at

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the coffee shop and eventually her and Alex Woodworth the night shift barista

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would begin talking longer and longer well into closing time. That was a long

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sentence. That's alright I got it. Over the course of a few weeks Alex and Ezra

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would begin to take long walks after Alex would close the coffee shop. The two

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would talk for hours while walking the streets of downtown Eau Claire seemingly

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losing track of time more oftentimes than not. Ezra couldn't believe how much

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they connected. She confided in Alex about her recent abortion and how it

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affected her and Jason's relationship. Alex felt depressed and like an

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outsider in his family so they bonded. I just want to say sorry in my opinion

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like talking to another single male about the struggles with your

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relationship with the guy is a red flag. It is a red flag. It's a no go. That's

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very inappropriate in my opinion. I would not do that. I agree. Eventually Alex

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and Ezra started holding hands on the walks that they would be sharing.

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Eventually they would hug and eventually begin kissing on these locks. I feel like

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it probably escalated quicker than that. Probably. The relationship. They held hands

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hugged and kissed all of them like a couple minutes. It's so true. They

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grew up in the 1940s. Yeah. I saw her angle one night. You want a little bit

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of angle? You want some of this? The relationship grew into a sexual one

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while Ezra was still living with Jason. This was somewhere between October 6th

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and October 29th. We're talking very quickly like you said. Of course

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it's like you know Ezra during her testimony was probably like we held

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hands and then one time we kissed and then one time we hugged. It was like a fairy

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tale. But it's literally probably all in the same night. So Ezra claimed that she

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was falling in love with Alex at this point. Ezra had even started staying the

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night at Alex's come early November while Jason would be out of town on

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assignment. I'm not saying this is Jason's fault at all. Like Ezra is totally to

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blame here and so is Alex honestly. But he's giving her the affection that

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Jason's not. Even when he is home he's like he said very depressed and very

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just like unapproachable and then he's gone for long periods of time. So she's

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probably just seeking you know that comfort elsewhere. Yeah I would totally

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agree with that. I think that Jason provides something that Ezra didn't have

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on her own which is a roof over her head and probably food and very much is

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Ezra even said it very reminiscent of her father. Someone that would probably

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always be in her corner if she needed it and Jason had a big enough heart to do

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that but the affection, the love, she probably didn't get that from him. Yeah

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well she probably didn't want that from him. It seemed transactional. That's my

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opinion. So even began Ezra even began becoming friendly with Alex's close

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friends and roommates and this relationship went on for some time all

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the way through the holidays. Ezra described their relationship like Yen

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and Yang. Ezra was the light in the sun while Alex was the night in the rain.

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They're just so poetic right? I'm so much sure. I'm bright and cheery too.

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I'm bright and cheery. The more time Ezra and Alex spent intimately together

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their sexual experiences broadened. The once quote-unquote vanilla sex had

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grown into certain kinks and fetishes. It was so vanilla that we only held hands.

377
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It was so vanilla. We only held hands when we kissed and it was like missionary.

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And showed him some egg. All of a sudden we're both wearing pleather ginsuits.

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Escalates quickly. It escalates very quickly. So the two seemed to enjoy their

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direction, the direction that the sexual relationship was going. All along

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Jason's in the dark or he's just... Traveling a lot for work and he works out of town so

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not all the time is he in town but she spends most of her time at Racy's.

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And so people are noticing that, oh isn't she with Jason? Is she not with Jason?

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And of course I'm sure she felt very comfortable explaining away anything

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that anybody had a problem with. Because they see her probably 80% more than they

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see Jason. Yeah, it's a good point. If they see her a lot they're probably

387
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gonna be more likely to believe her when Jason says, oh Jason knows, he's cool with it.

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Or, oh we broke up. Oh Jason doesn't want to deal with me. Yeah, exactly. And they were roommates.

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By early January, Ezra had become increasingly anxious about the months-long

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affair. She expressed her concerns to Alex who could not understand why Ezra

391
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just wouldn't leave Jason. After all, Ezra was telling everyone that Jason was

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manipulative and abusive since the abortion and that they were essentially

393
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just roommates like we just deciphered. We just made official. By mid to late

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January, the pressure seemed to be too much for Alex and he would cut his own

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wrists. Immediately he contacted Ezra to help him and Ezra relayed to Jason

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that Alex was in need of help and Jason being military insisted that he would go

397
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along to help Alex as well. And has no clue in the world. No, he doesn't. Well,

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other than he didn't really appreciate the fact, quote unquote, appreciate the

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fact that Ezra and Alex were spending a lot of time together, but he didn't really

400
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have any confirmation that anything had happened. Although I do think that, I mean,

401
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I feel like I know Jason pretty well, I know. I think that even if he did know,

402
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he's still the kind of guy that would have lent out a hand to help. Oh, for sure.

403
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,040
Yeah, exactly. He would probably put everything aside to go home. If it's to save a

404
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life, you know, all the bullshit aside, like I'm gonna save a life. For sure. The

405
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two went to Alex's apartment, but I think he lived in a house where Jason

406
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was able to successfully dress Alex's wounds. And although Alex discussed that

407
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he was having some issues with family and depression, he did not use this time to

408
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tell Jason about his and Ezra's relationship. Yeah. Between February 4th

409
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and February 15th of 2018, Jason went on assignment for approximately a week or so.

410
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Ezra, instead of staying at the apartment that she and Jason shared, she opted to

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head home to her mother's house in Stanley. However, Jason would not be made

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aware that Ezra not only moved out, but even broke the relationship

413
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off until after he left. Oh my god. So she called him like a few days after he left

414
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and was like, oh, I'm breaking up with you by the way, I moved out. By the way, I'm

415
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gone. I'm gone. Well, I mean, not for nothing, but like probably easier than

416
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dealing with him there because he's probably the kind of guy that would try

417
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to fix it and say, want to have the long conversation and want to, you know,

418
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change or say that he'll change, you know, and I'm sure she didn't want that.

419
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Like an adult though. Exactly. Oh wait, let me just sneak off while you're gone.

420
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:23,160
Exactly. It was very immature on her part. Very. So at this time, Ezra would also

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crash with her father, Jo Shane, during this time, which I already said time.

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00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,160
Time, time. But ultimately decided to find another apartment in Eau Claire area,

423
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,800
possibly with her very close friend, Alex Woodworth.

424
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,440
Hmm. Her and Jason kept in contact while Jason was gone, even though the two were

425
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:46,400
not together. But shortly after even this, Ezra broke up with Alex too, or broke up

426
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:53,240
with. Okay. She like stopped hanging out with Alex. After Jason's return, Ezra

427
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,520
expressed that she wanted to come visit him in Eau Claire, but she didn't have

428
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,120
any money. And given that Jason's friend had friends had at this time expressed

429
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,960
their honest opinions about Ezra, staying at Jason's apartment was not an option.

430
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,480
Yeah, they're like, fuck that. Like no. Oh, she's coming into town. She's gonna stay with you.

431
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,200
She's not gonna stay with you, is she? Yeah. You've learned that lesson the first time,

432
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,880
the hard way. Jason decided to rent a hotel room for the two to stay in for one

433
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,920
weekend. During their stay at this hotel, however, Ezra left her iPod out after

434
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:28,280
falling asleep. Jason then found text messages exchanged between Ezra and

435
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:35,520
another man, but maybe not the one you'd expect. Not Alex. This man was none other

436
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:41,080
than Jason's best friend and married John Hansen. The one that they were wrestling.

437
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:47,200
They were wrestling. Who saw that one coming. Not me. Yes, John Hansen was married

438
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:54,800
and had a child. So the text between the two were on February 11th, just a few days

439
00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:02,160
after Jason left for assignment and they read, so at this point I will be Ezra

440
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:09,040
and you will be John. Okay. It's gonna be gross and creepy. I haven't read it. I saw that you emailed me

441
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,280
the transcript, but I haven't read through it yet. Okay. I'm not even gonna just, I'm not gonna go.

442
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:19,600
Just go. It's stressful looking for places, so that might be a nice to relive. So again,

443
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,080
she's deleted previous text messages and these are the ones that she forgot to delete. Okay.

444
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,640
So this is a continuation of a conversation they were already having. It's stressful looking for

445
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,680
places, so that might be nice to relive. Working out again really does make you want to fuck

446
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:44,480
everything that moves. Might also be a predator. A body in motion wants to stay in motion. Are

447
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:53,520
you gonna pound this anytime soon? Sorry, I'm being rude. Not this week. I have my son. It's

448
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:58,960
alright to be blunt. Just gotta be alright with it coming back your way. It's so crunchy. Okay.

449
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:07,120
Keep in mind Jason is reading this about his partner and best friend. Yeah. Just let me know

450
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,960
when I can get my next in and out winky face. In and out. Also hanging out and doing art again

451
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,800
would be nice because you're more than just a good dick. Oh, that should be nice. He's such a good

452
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:26,000
kid. I immediately went back to the fact that he's putting time with his son. After just saying

453
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:34,480
the word in and out, in and out, and you're more than a good dick. She seems so much older though,

454
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,480
doesn't she? She seems so mature. Totally is a little bit of whoopee. She might as well.

455
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,200
And also isn't like calling someone sex with them in and out like an insult? Yeah, I just

456
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,880
want to know when I can get my next in and out winky. Okay, but she's not like other girls though,

457
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,800
that's the thing. She's not like other girls. She talks nasty. Here's John. Why thank you. He's a

458
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:03,040
good kid. I'm looking forward to spending some dad time with him. Oh, that melts my heart. I'd love

459
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:10,000
to paint with him sometime. The following day. Feeling like a snake today. What's wriggling

460
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:18,000
through your mind? I've been with my son all day. My mind is pretty preoccupied. That's

461
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,840
understandable. Dad time. Two days later, Valentine's Day and before Jason comes home.

462
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,280
See something, say nothing, and drink to forget. Happy Valentine's.

463
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:40,640
That's beautiful, Ezra. Happy Valentine's. I have a way with words, John.

464
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:47,280
No, you don't. Sorry, that wasn't me. That wasn't John. It's just it shows. So that's it.

465
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:54,240
It's not like funny. It's just like cringy. It's so cringy. Like I said, she thinks that she's this

466
00:35:54,240 --> 00:36:03,120
otherworldly. She thinks, oh, you know, it's so edgy of me is to say in and out and you're more than

467
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,480
a good dick. That makes sense for her to say that. But grave in some in and out. She's like,

468
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:14,080
you should get a burger then. Then you should go. But I like that. I mean, I don't like that because,

469
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,360
okay, two things are happening here. It clearly shows that they have had a sexual past before

470
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:28,560
except February 11th. And Jason comes back on the 15th, I think. And he left on the fourth.

471
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:34,960
So this clearly shows that they had a sexual relationship before these messages. But it also

472
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:40,640
shows that John is not into her at all. The fact that he's like, I'm with my son. I'm preoccupied.

473
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,280
You clearly don't understand that I'm not into sexting you right now because

474
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,000
yeah, but that's the thing is it is a maturity level. You can see it there. You can see that

475
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,240
she's too immature to be like, oh, you're with your son. Have a great day. Yeah. She's like,

476
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:59,120
hope he's not reading the messages trying to get that good D like, yeah. And then she's like,

477
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:04,400
oh, let me paint with your son. It's like, girl, we hooked up a few times. And you want to spend

478
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:11,040
time with my kid very casual to him and very serious to her for sure. So given the context of

479
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,080
the message, it was clear to Jason that Ezra and John had been having a relationship for some time.

480
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,480
Jason immediately screenshot these messages and send them to himself.

481
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:27,200
It's like in pro. Good boy. Jason then confronted Ezra and Ezra insisted that Jason was looking

482
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,440
into these messages as if she was guilty of cheating, but she clearly wasn't.

483
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:37,120
I need more of that in and out. You can't really misinterpret that unless she just really likes

484
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:44,160
in and out more than a good dick. Oh, in style or animal style. You tell me. And then when she

485
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,240
realized that he wasn't into it, she's like, or we can talk about art and wine again. Like,

486
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,600
so yes, she insisted that this was not the case that he was just being paranoid. He tried to gas

487
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,720
light him. She tried to gaslight him. Yeah. And then she's like, what if you're cheating? That's

488
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:04,800
why you're asking me because you're probably cheating. You're being salacious. Jason then called

489
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:10,560
John to confront him about the messages. And John eventually admitted that the two did engage in

490
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:16,720
sexual acts after denying it at first. Furious. Jason needed to get out of the hotel room and

491
00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:22,400
suggested that he and Ezra go to a friend's house in order to calm down and talk as Jason, huh?

492
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,600
He brought her with him. He's like, let's both go. I'd be like, fuck you. Leave in your ass here.

493
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,800
I don't give a shit if you don't live here. Jason said he put it that he wanted to have

494
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:38,080
a neutral friend that was level headed in the room with him. I love this guy. I know. Very smart

495
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:44,400
guy. And very mature, emotionally mature. I think so. At first, Ezra maintained that nothing had

496
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:50,560
happened, but then began to talk about the night of February 4th, which is the day that Jason left.

497
00:38:50,560 --> 00:39:00,800
Yeah. Stating that John had forced himself on her. Oh. Ezra said that? Yes. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.

498
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,880
Oh. Ezra said that her and John had made plans to create art and house them wine that night to

499
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,640
discuss the state of her and Jason's relationship. Is she even 21 at this point? No, she's 20.

500
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,600
Oh, Jesus. But I'm telling you, everybody thought that she was much older because of who she hung

501
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,840
out with, the way she carried herself, or at least who she portrayed herself to be. So I don't think

502
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:28,080
that anybody was like, hey, how old are you? Yeah. And even if they did, she probably lied. 25. Yeah.

503
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:33,120
Ezra claimed that John and his roommate were poking fun at her for not being able to drink as much

504
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:38,720
as them. This is all what she's telling Jason. She claimed that John and his roommate were poking

505
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:44,560
fun at her for not being able to drink as much as them and that she had also not eaten much that day,

506
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:50,720
resulting in Ezra becoming so drunk that she became ill. Eventually, John's roommate went to bed,

507
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,680
and after being in the bathroom for some time, Ezra said that all she remembered was being carried

508
00:39:55,680 --> 00:40:02,400
upstairs and placed in John's bed. Ezra said at some point she felt her tights being removed

509
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,800
and that she couldn't remember much, but that quote, a woman knows when things have happened

510
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:13,680
to her the next morning, end quote. I don't buy it. That's what she claimed. No, the quote, yes,

511
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:21,280
but I don't buy her whole story, is what I mean. Well, yeah. And I, yeah, we'll see. Although her

512
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,920
memory was hazy, Ezra said that she did feel like there were sexual acts that happened to her,

513
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,920
but that she didn't resist. And in fact, she remembered that the sex was unprotected. So she

514
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,920
remembers that the sex is unprotected. She remembers not saying no, but she doesn't remember anything

515
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:42,320
else in that, yeah. That, I mean, that's not unreasonable. Like if someone is being truthful

516
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,320
about that, that's not out of the realm of possibilities that you only remember certain

517
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:51,920
things, but like certain things that are important, like it wasn't protected. When these acts were

518
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,200
done, she was then told by John to go to another guest room in order to sleep, what she did, and

519
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:03,760
she stayed there until the next morning. And that was because he was concerned that the roommate would

520
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,960
see Ezra come out of his bedroom in the morning. So she was to sleep in the other room because

521
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:14,880
he was married. Maybe he shouldn't have fucked up. Well, and she's with Jason. Yeah. When the two

522
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,600
woke up the next morning, John and Ezra got into John's car for him to take her back to the apartment

523
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:25,920
that Jason and Ezra shared. Ezra told Jason that she was very uncomfortable because John acted like

524
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,000
nothing had happened the night before. She was like, he just like seemed like everything was fine,

525
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:38,800
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526
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529
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in the show notes now to receive an exclusive offer with Centbird. Once the two arrived at Jason

530
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:12,160
and Ezra's apartment, John walked Ezra inside and there in Jason's bed, which Ezra shared with him,

531
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:18,000
she claimed that John pressured her into sexual acts once again. What? The two engaged in unprotected

532
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:23,760
sex once again. So she was coherent at this point. She was sober. Yeah. I'll be it probably hung over.

533
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:30,000
Well, yeah, but you know. A few days later is when Ezra would break up with Jason while he was

534
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,640
out of town on an assignment. So this happened. Jason left on the February 4th. This happened

535
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,040
February 4th, February the morning of February 5th. And then like I think it was like the seventh

536
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:44,800
or eighth is when she broke up with Jason and moved out. Okay. So someone being like in that

537
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:52,720
situation might have thought, oh, I'm very, I feel a lot of guilt about this. Even if it wasn't her

538
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:58,160
fault, even if she was taken advantage of, I'm just going to break it off with Jason in order to

539
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,280
avoid having to tell him what happened. Yeah. And absolutely. That is, I feel like we've definitely

540
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,360
heard stories where that's happened before. I don't want to say like that's reasonable, but

541
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:13,600
it's understandable. An immense amount of guilt, right? Yeah. So Ezra would move back in with her

542
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:21,040
mom and Alex Woodworth would help her move. Of course he was all like, bet, right? Yeah,

543
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,680
I'll help you move. Let me back up your ship for you. Even after she broke up with him. She's still

544
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,800
kind of going back and forth with Alex and Jason all the time. That's just a theme. Okay.

545
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:37,840
So again, oh, so I had mentioned previously that she had stopped talking to Alex during this whole

546
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,400
time. So she essentially had Alex move her stuff to her moms and then that's when she broke up with

547
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:49,600
Alex or broke it off with Alex. Yeah. So the doozy of all this, John Hansen is actually really

548
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,760
good friends with Alex Woodworth too. So all three of them are friends. They're all just

549
00:43:53,760 --> 00:44:00,400
dipping from the same pot. I'm trying to think of, yeah, they got the, that's gross. Yeah, all the

550
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:07,120
same fountain pen. So yeah, gross. So yes, they all knew each other pretty well. So this was the

551
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:11,840
timeline of events that had happened then, but we're going to get back to the conversation that

552
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:18,000
Ezra and Jason are having inside their level headed friends home. Okay, after they left the hotel.

553
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:24,000
So yes. So now the conversation has shifted. Jason is saying now out loud that he is going

554
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,840
to kill John Hansen for assaulting Ezra. Jeez. He's like, right. He's like, let's go find a friend

555
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:35,200
that's level headed. Oh, we'll kill that motherfucker. I need this guy to talk me down from murdering

556
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:41,440
this guy. Yes, everything begins to escalate. So their level headed friend decides to call police

557
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:48,320
because the situation's becoming right. I'm saying like, these are a good group of guys. Well,

558
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:57,040
so far there's at least one asshole that we've been told of. Oh God. Keep going. Right. So again,

559
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:03,680
the friend called police and the police arrive. They separate all parties and Ezra herself asked

560
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,680
to go to the police station to get out of the tense situation to speak with police privately,

561
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:14,800
which again is kind of her MO right now. Like she just dips like whenever she feels stress

562
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:22,320
or anxiety. I mean, which I feel like is a normal flight or fight response. But it has,

563
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:28,400
it's been like, oh, can't live with Jo Shane, can't live with Rosalina, gonna go to Eau Claire as

564
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,560
often as possible. Escape that situation by moving in with Jason. Now I'm gonna escape that situation

565
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,480
by moving in with my mom. I'm gonna escape the situation by going with police. It's definitely

566
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,880
a coping mechanism. Did you see her parents, her parents had separated when she was younger, right?

567
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,880
Right. But they lived with her dad for a little while. No, she lived with her mom mostly. They

568
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,840
both live in Stanley though, not very far from each other. So she kept in contact with Jo Shane.

569
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,760
It's the only father she calls him dad. Yeah. It's the only father that she's ever known. But

570
00:45:54,720 --> 00:46:01,280
in her later years after bouncing around from Jason's in Eau Claire to her mom's, she was staying

571
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,480
with Jo Shane every once in a while. Yeah. I'm just thinking it might be like a, almost like a

572
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:11,280
pattern of behavior in her family. Like her mom left when it got hard with Jo Shane, right? And

573
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:16,800
so now she's like, oh, well, that's what you do when things get hard as a female identifying person

574
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,920
or whatever. You know, oh, you just leave. It's just easier. We'll just start fresh over here and

575
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,200
we'll just move here and we'll just do that. You know, I definitely think it started when she was

576
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:31,600
younger though, because she never knew her bio father. So I think that she is used to men using

577
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:41,040
her or leaving. And so I think that a lot of it is garnering attention from men and the appreciation

578
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:47,680
that she can get. And I think, I'll talk about it towards the end too, that I have another theory.

579
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:56,000
So yes, at the police station, Ezra through tears described the incident she experienced with John.

580
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:02,480
She never used the word rape or assault, but did state that John had been physically aggressive

581
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,040
with her in the past, including the night that Jason saw the two horse playing through the window.

582
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:13,200
That's not unusual either. Sorry, I keep interrupting. Oh, you're fine. It's very,

583
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:18,960
I would say rare for a woman that's been sexually assaulted to immediately use the word rape.

584
00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:28,160
I have heard multiple instances when someone can't accept that that's what happened to them until

585
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,600
many years later, because it's such a harsh word and you don't want to believe that you

586
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:39,520
fell victim to that or that maybe that's not what happened. Maybe I'm overplaying it. I've

587
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:44,480
heard instances where people gaslight themselves and they say, oh no, I'm just overreacting or

588
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,200
like, well, I didn't say no or whatever, kind of like using it as like, oh, it's not a big

589
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:54,640
deal, kind of brush it off. Unfortunately, that's what people are led to think that they need to do

590
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,960
when they do get sexually assaulted. So it's not unusual that she wouldn't immediately use that

591
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:04,320
term. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was in a physically abusive relationship starting at the age of 17,

592
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,200
and I didn't realize that I was in a domestic violent situation. It became, that just sounded

593
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,880
so harsh to me, you know, to describe someone who I thought I loved at the time. I'm like, no, no,

594
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,960
no, it's a, he just gets really angry or he just gets really, you know, like sometimes he can't

595
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,880
control himself. Making excuses. Yeah. But, you know, it was probably years after I removed myself

596
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,040
from that situation to be like, damn, that was a domestic violent situation. Like, shit, look,

597
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,960
that's heavy. No, it is definitely hard for sure. And I mean, credit to all the people that have been

598
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,920
through anything like that and are able to be strong and say that and say, fuck that, I'm not

599
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,880
letting that happen again. Right. Right. So Ezra maintained that although she did not exactly want

600
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,600
to be in a sexual encounter with John, she also didn't use the word no or consider the encounter

601
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:55,600
to be an assault. So with that, the police gave Ezra some pamphlets containing programs and counseling

602
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,320
for counseling information, but then was free to leave the station. Well, and that sucks too. Sorry,

603
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:06,080
I'm really sorry. Last thing I want to say, that sucks too, because if she's not willing to use

604
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,440
that terminology and she's just brushing it off like it's no big deal, the police aren't going to

605
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:15,440
pursue it like asexual. They legally can't because they, she didn't, she committed, she essentially

606
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:22,000
reported no crime. Exactly. I mean, that's not her fault. It's not at the end of the day. However,

607
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,200
they just can't, they can't use it or anything. Right. And that's the thing is like, I just feel

608
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,520
like in this case specifically, I think that the police were correct in being like, here's,

609
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,800
when, when or if you feel the need to reach out to somebody, here's the information.

610
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:39,120
Absolutely. So after her interview, Ezra further confessed that she had also been intimate with

611
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:46,640
Alex. She confessed this to Jason. Oh, okay. But this was also unwanted contact is what she

612
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:52,880
claimed. She stated that the day after John forced Ezra into sexual acts, she confided in Alex

613
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:58,400
Woodworth, who then took advantage of Ezra's delicate state. Okay. So now she's been assaulted

614
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:04,640
by two people within 48 hours. So we're seeing a pattern here. Yes. Then again, this is not to

615
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:12,000
say that it didn't happen. Yeah. This is Ezra's account. I will say that there was no evidence

616
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:16,640
whatsoever that either of these assaults occurred. And it's hard though, because you can't,

617
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,600
you cannot write that off and say, no, that didn't happen. You need to believe people when they say

618
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,520
that. Right. And that's the hard part about this. Of course. And as I'm saying, I'm not necessarily

619
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:32,480
not believing her. Yeah. It's just that that one sentence, there was no evidence that this occurred.

620
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,600
And you also know the whole story, you know, as it goes into it.

621
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:42,320
Even with all this information, Jason continued to support Ezra and tried to make the relationship

622
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:47,600
work. After all, he cared very deeply for Ezra still, plus the poor girl had in his mind been

623
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:53,760
assaulted twice by two people he thought he could trust. What a fucking guy. I really hope this

624
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,640
this guy turns out to be like the guy like, I hope he's okay.

625
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,680
The listeners are going to hear it first. I have a little bit of a crush on Jason Mengel.

626
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:10,480
So come March, things were starting to settle down for Ezra. She had begun staying with her

627
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,360
mom and began working at a local school with special needs elementary school kiddos. Okay.

628
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,520
And she was in line to accept a new position elsewhere.

629
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:24,080
Her and Jason maintained contact for this duration of time. And Ezra began to feel loving feelings

630
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:29,280
towards Jason again. And she's about 20, 21? She's 20. And this is all like within the six of us.

631
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:35,680
Oh yeah, you're right. Okay. So this is in March. So Jason and her met in July, August of 2017.

632
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:43,360
This is just she's 20 in October. Yeah. Yeah. So again, her and Jason maintained contact and

633
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,680
Ezra felt like she was beginning to fall in love with Jason. And maybe the distance is just what

634
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,960
they needed. Ezra went to Eau Claire to visit Jason in mid March. And they became intimate very

635
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:58,000
quickly. This is like kind of the first time that they saw each other again. This attempt at

636
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,160
another chance with Jason was all at the behest of her mother who did not agree on the two dating

637
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:07,840
again. She felt like the relationship wasn't a good one. That maybe Ezra extended herself too much,

638
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,160
vice versa, Jason extending himself too much. Not only that, but the age gap. Yeah.

639
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:17,520
Yeah. Ezra would continue to come into town and spend time with Jason and the Racy's crowd.

640
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,720
But now people were beginning to talk about her negatively kind of turn on Ezra because now it's

641
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:28,560
like, there's all this other commotion, right? Because she accused John of sexual assault.

642
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,640
She, well, she didn't accuse him of sexual assault. The two had engaged in sexual acts

643
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:41,760
with or without her verbal consent. That's because she was very adamant in the trial. She

644
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,520
said, I never used the word assault. I never did. I never used the word rape. I never used the word

645
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:51,360
assault as a pertain to John or Alex. But the words getting around, right? Yeah. And of course,

646
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:57,200
Alex is homies with everyone that we works there. What is it? Racy's? Racy's. Racy Delaynes. Well,

647
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,520
it's called Racy Delaynes, but they call it Racy's. Yeah. That's a cute little coffee shop. If you

648
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,560
ever get to look at pictures, so cute. I keep thinking this is a bar. No, yeah, it's a little

649
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:12,880
coffee shop. So at this point, the situation seems to become even more tense when Ezra's phone

650
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:17,920
number was written on the inside of one of the bathroom stalls, including the words,

651
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:23,440
fuck me with her phone number. Cute. Right? Oh my God, that's going to do wonders for her mental

652
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:32,000
health. Oh my gosh. So, okay, and I'm not trying to... Do you think it was her? I think it was her.

653
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:36,720
I think it was her. I think that she did it on purpose because I think that she wanted to...

654
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:43,440
Her next angle in my mind was like, okay, now people don't like me. Now it's like,

655
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,560
I'm going to lean into being a victim here. Paint the picture. Paint the picture of being a victim

656
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:54,320
so that Jason doesn't leave. And so, yes, she had taken a picture and sent it to Jason.

657
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,840
And so Jason continued to have Ezra's back by then going to Racy's. They're unisex bathrooms

658
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,000
by the way. So it's not like it was just in a boy's bathroom or a girl's bathroom. They're gender

659
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:11,040
neutral bathrooms. Jason continued to have Ezra's back by covering the message with the words,

660
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,360
quote, life starts now, which is something that Ezra said that her dad used to say.

661
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:22,320
Okay, no, sweet. It's really sweet. I love Jason. No, Jason's literally the best. He took a picture

662
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,720
of it and then he had crossed it out and he wrote life starts now and he's like, I wrote it there

663
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:31,440
as a reminder to her that this isn't the end of everything. You can change this. Like, you can

664
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:36,400
turn this around. I feel like if Casey, like, if someone wrote my name in the bathroom with my

665
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:41,760
number instead of Casey, she would just cross out, fuck me and just leave the number. I'm just kidding.

666
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:47,520
But he would be like, LOL, babe, that's hilarious. That's hilarious. No fucking deleting. Get me rid of it.

667
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:55,760
Oh, that's sweet though. A few nights before March 22nd, Jason went out with a few friends,

668
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:01,600
namely his roommate, Alex, Alex Zink, and his girlfriend, Jenna. Not Jason's, but Alex's.

669
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:08,720
Jason proceeded to get drunk and the conversation soon swayed into Jason's friend's dislike of

670
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:15,200
Ezra. But most notably, Jenna confirmed that Alex Woodworth and Ezra's relationship was deeper

671
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:20,320
than what Ezra expressed to Jason. Yeah, she's like, yeah, well, we had, like, sexually assaulted me

672
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:25,120
or he took advantage of me or whatever she said. That's all she said. But he doesn't know that they

673
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:30,640
were, like, dating together for a while. Jason was uninterested in hearing what Jenna had to say

674
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:36,080
that night, so he headed home into bed. The next morning, Jason woke to a letter that Jenna had

675
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:42,320
written to Jason in regards to her feelings of Ezra and her overall concern for Jason. Jason hung

676
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,040
over but levelheaded, considered what Jenna had said the night before, and in the letter, and that

677
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,840
the relationship between Alex and Ezra had clearly been over some months and not just one incident,

678
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:56,480
as Ezra had explained. Honestly, good for Jenna, though. Yeah, she was like, well, this is what

679
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,720
I heard. What a nice girl. And like, yeah. And then she was like, okay, well, Jason's just drunk,

680
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:06,000
I'll just tell him in the morning. And so she wrote him a letter. On the back of this letter,

681
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:11,120
Jason then compiled a timeline of events and much like a scene from A Beautiful Mind,

682
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,320
the dots began to connect for Jason and he could see a pattern. This poor guy, he's like,

683
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:22,640
I've done nothing but try to help her. Be nice to her and believe her and forgive her and try to

684
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:29,120
make it work. Done nothing but sleep with my friends. Yeah. So Jason called and confronted

685
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,160
Ezra about the discrepancy in her story. Again, Ezra's kind of back and forth with Joe Shane and

686
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:41,920
her mom. Ezra had no answers for this. And Ezra would request to actually hang on to the letter.

687
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:47,200
She was like, oh, can I have that letter? I want to read that letter. Can I have it? And Jason agreed.

688
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,040
If I was Jenna, I'd be like, hey, no, no, no, no, no, this is for you. Well, I mean, it's Jason's.

689
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,600
Yeah, but I think it was more like, what the fuck is this kind of a thing? Like, you know,

690
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:05,360
I see. Like, let me see this letter then, you know, whatever. So Jason would then begin to pull back

691
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:10,960
and Ezra would be able to feel this, of course. So, you know, maybe not as many phone calls or

692
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:17,040
talking as much. Ezra would soon tell Jason that she felt that she could no longer hang on to certain

693
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:21,120
things that Alex had given her over the time, their time together. And she swore to Jason that

694
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:26,800
she would fix everything. And she would tell Alex off once and for all and exchange their stuff and

695
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,200
finally be done with it, right? So including their friendship, she just wouldn't even be friends with

696
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:39,280
Alex either. She promised to dedicate herself to Jason 100%. A few days passed and by March 22nd,

697
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:44,480
Jason began his morning with a phone call to Ezra. The two chatted about what their days held and

698
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,800
Ezra said that she would be staying with her dad and that her dad wasn't letting her use her car.

699
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,040
I think it was like, no insurance or no registration or something and he was like,

700
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:59,280
you're not going to drive the car, you know. Yeah. Jason hung up with Ezra and headed down to Water

701
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,760
Street to do some laundry and periodically in between loads, he was going up to Racy's to grab

702
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:09,680
coffee and chill. On one trip back to Racy's, Jason was sitting outside on the benches smoking a

703
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:16,000
cigarette when he saw Ezra walking towards the shop. Usually Ezra would let him know if she was

704
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,560
going to be in town so that they could hang out together. So he found this to be kind of odd that

705
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:25,680
she would just come to town. Yeah. Especially because she had told him, I can't go to town because

706
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:32,960
I don't have my car. Yeah, that's true. Ezra seemed upset, said very little as she passed by Jason

707
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:39,280
and another regular and went inside Racy's. Soon, Jason realized that Ezra was missing from Racy's,

708
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:45,280
like he had been inside and then she either probably left and he didn't notice or she maybe

709
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,120
left through the nucleus and didn't notice or whatever it was for the nucleus. The nucleus.

710
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:53,120
That's the little food shop and they're connected to- Oh, that's what it's called.

711
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,800
It's called the nucleus. I thought that was like a term. No, racy delanes and then the nucleus.

712
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:04,320
Yeah. He grew concerned as mentioned earlier, Ezra looked upset when she showed up and he also

713
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:08,400
knew that at some point, like because earlier in the week she had said that she was going to

714
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:13,600
meet up with Alex and so he got concerned. Yeah. He worried for her safety and the escalation

715
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:21,440
of the conversation. Sure enough, Jason hopped on his bike and saw Ezra's car outside of Alex's

716
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:28,320
place and it was idling. Jason also noticed that the note that Jenna had given Jason was

717
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:34,640
sitting on her passenger seat. I fucking knew it. I knew it. Jason waited for a few minutes outside

718
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:40,400
of Alex's home but soon became uncomfortable with the amount of time Ezra was inside because

719
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,000
you left your car idling. Yeah. So if your car is idling, that just kind of suggests you're

720
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:49,360
going to run inside and come out. And he also got there, I mean, we're talking maybe maybe 10

721
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:54,400
minutes after her 15 minutes and that's a long time to already be inside. Exactly.

722
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:02,960
So Jason decided to approach the door. He opened the door, it was unlocked and Jason's phone actually

723
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:09,040
started to ring like somebody was calling him and he explained it in the trial that it was a very

724
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:16,960
noticeable ring tone, like something that would be recognized by Ezra. He then heard Ezra say,

725
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:23,920
quote, let him help you or let him let him help you or let me help you. And Jason, it was in a

726
01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:31,040
very loud tone. So Jason ran up to Alex's bedroom and he thought that maybe Alex was trying to harm

727
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:38,880
himself again. So he walks into Alex's bedroom, the door was cracked and Alex and Ezra are sitting

728
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:44,560
on his bed. However, both parties seem to be fine, although they look like they were deep in

729
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:50,000
discussion. Jason then recommended that the two talk in a more public setting. He was like,

730
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:53,200
I don't know why you guys would choose to talk in private about something that's very

731
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,840
sensitive and that if you guys are going to talk about this, I'd rather you do it in public,

732
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:03,680
it would make me feel better, especially given Alex's seemingly already one suicide attempt.

733
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:10,480
So Jason decided to walk outside. He said, I'm going to be outside for the time being,

734
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:16,400
I would like y'all to both come downstairs when you have a moment. And he just continues to be a

735
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:28,320
good guy, level headed and emotionally mature. So Jason walks outside by his bike by Ezra's car,

736
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,600
he starts smoking a cigarette and he's like, you know what, just to be sure, I'm going to call

737
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:37,360
the police. So he calls the police and by the time the police arrive for the welfare check,

738
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:42,560
the two started coming outside of the home anyways. So there didn't really seem to be that much of an

739
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,880
escalation anymore. The police kind of just left the scene. They said, you know, as long as you

740
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:52,160
guys go somewhere else, talk, you can talk privately, but in public, you know, let's just,

741
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:56,720
you know, Jason, you move on and then you all go do whatever you're going to do, right? So the

742
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:01,680
conversation seemed to be resolved or at least calm for the time being. And Alex and Ezra were,

743
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:07,040
they told Jason we're going to go to a local park and that's where we're going to talk. So that's

744
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:14,640
what they did. Alex, I think Alex drove Ezra's car or vice versa, I can't remember. Jason went

745
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:23,040
back to Racy's after that. And at 415, a 90 year old dairy farmer by the name of Don Sipple was

746
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:29,440
sitting inside his home about to have dinner for the evening. All of a sudden he noticed a shadow

747
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:35,680
run past his den window. And then he started receiving a frantic ringing of his doorbell.

748
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:42,240
Mr. Sipple opened his door and was met by a bruised and bloodied young girl. Her clothes were

749
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:48,160
torn and she was barefoot. She immediately begged for Mr. Sipple to call for help, as he brought

750
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:53,440
her into the warmth of his home. She could not recall her name or what had happened to her,

751
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:59,120
but then she recollected that she was assaulted and she was remote Claire. The police arrived

752
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:03,840
and took the girl to the hospital, where the girl referred to herself as Monica Carlin.

753
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:09,760
In her one request was for someone to contact Jason Mangle. What?

754
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:18,560
Hospital staff and police noted that Monica was covered in blood and mud. She also had a few

755
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:24,800
cuts on her, but most notably was a carving on her left arm. Cut into Monica's arm was the word

756
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:29,920
boy. Police were on the lookout for any potential suspicious people in the area,

757
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:34,160
as Monica had not been able to describe anyone who could be her perpetrator. She had no recollection

758
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:40,000
of her perpetrator. I'm sure she's right-handed. Eventually it was found that there was no registered

759
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:47,280
name for a Monica Carlin in the area and Ezra gave them her full name. Although Ezra was hysterical

760
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:52,320
at Mr. Sipple's house, she was notably calm for someone who went through what she looked like she

761
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:58,640
had gone through. Jason, you know, he was going to and from Races and Laundrie and all that sort of,

762
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:03,920
became concerned that Ezra and Alex, after hours of not hearing from them, something had happened.

763
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,080
And at some point, Jason went to the police station to ask for help in locating the two,

764
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:14,080
as he was concerned about Alex's prior behavior or self-harm. He was told by police that Ezra

765
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:20,320
had been assaulted and that Alex and Ezra's car was still missing. At this point, a manhunt was on

766
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:26,480
was on to locate Alex as he was now wanted for attacking Ezra. Oh my god. Police came into

767
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:31,600
Ezra's hospital room in order to get further information from Ezra. She said that she remembered

768
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:36,640
being in a park, but not much more after that. The search for Alex would eventually end when

769
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:43,440
Alex's body was located on Mr. Sipple's property. On the property? Yes, it was a pretty big property,

770
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:50,480
but yes. Oh my god. Ezra's car was stuck in the mud and there in the back seat, Alex was found

771
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:56,960
halfway hanging out of the back passenger seat door and he had been stabbed 16 times in the head,

772
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:03,600
neck, chest, and groin. Oh my god, that's so personal. Very personal. I mean, obviously it was

773
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:09,360
her, but that's so personal. It was only after Alex's body was found did Ezra confess that she

774
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:14,720
was the one who hurt Alex, but it was out of self-defense. She claimed that he tried to sexually

775
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:20,400
assault her yet again, and after carving the word boy into Ezra's arm, she found a knife in her

776
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:25,920
middle console and stabbed Alex several times, but only to get away and that she had no idea how

777
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:31,120
many times she stabbed him or that his wounds were fatal. Yeah, you stabbed him on multiple

778
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,440
like parts of his body. That's not self-defense. Well, the fact that she tried to claim that he

779
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:41,760
carved boy into her arm, like how she still was using the knife. Yeah, how still were you sitting

780
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:46,240
and that she just happened to have a knife. Yeah, of course. You couldn't just grab the knife that

781
01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:51,120
he was using to carve into your arm? Right. Maybe they shared it. I don't know. Yeah.

782
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,720
Two weeks after Alex Woodworth was killed, Ezra McCannless would be arrested for first degree

783
01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:02,080
murder. During the trial, Ezra claimed that she was no longer masculine identifying and she had

784
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:07,600
grown her hair out to middle length. She wore lots of pink and floral patterns, and it was noted that

785
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:12,240
she constantly doodled in court, claiming that it was an anxiety soother... whatever.

786
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,880
She has such a nonchalantness about her. Yeah. That's just like...

787
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:27,120
Association. Oh, yes. I can, you know, can you tell us what happened on March 22nd? Yes, I, this, and

788
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:38,480
you know, I loved Alex and it's not... it's not as vacant as maybe Jody Arias, but it's very removed.

789
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:44,400
It is very removed. It's very dissociative, for sure. It's really interesting to watch and, you

790
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:51,200
know, she portrays herself to be this mousy. In fact, her defense attorney, as soon as she gets up

791
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:57,840
and she said, oh, you know, okay, we're gonna bring Ezra McCannless to the stand, you know, and

792
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:04,160
then Ezra sits down and she's like, okay, state your name and she's like, Ezra McCannless. Okay,

793
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:08,480
Ezra, I understand that you're very soft-spoken, so you're gonna have to speak up for the court.

794
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:14,560
And it's like, no, what happened to you more than a good dick girl, you know, like...

795
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,960
That's not soft-spoken. That's not soft-spoken. Come on. Come on.

796
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,600
I could have gained it and had it in that courtroom. Come on.

797
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:27,120
Exactly. So it's very interesting to see the way that they portrayed her. So my point in saying

798
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:34,400
that is that Ezra not always had very short hair, but she did consider herself to be more masculine

799
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:42,080
presenting. And in the trial, she portrays herself to be this very demure woman, you know, woman,

800
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:48,800
all of a sudden. And I think it's because people would be confused about her identity and how

801
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:54,800
she could express that in a way that jurors would understand. Well, it's also probably a, oh, look

802
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:59,680
at this sweet, soft-spoken, nice girl. She could never have done something like this unless she

803
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:05,920
was sexually assaulted. That's true. You know. And she's so nice that, I mean, she's probably been

804
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:12,000
sexually assaulted. And she's so small. She can't stand up for herself. The defense claim that Alex

805
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:17,520
was a mentally sick individual who had been coming increasingly unhinged and homicidal

806
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:23,120
after his suicide attempt or seeming suicide attempt. Alex was physically and sexually

807
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:28,160
abusive towards Ezra, often holding her down and blindfolding her during their sexual encounters.

808
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:33,280
So again, she's, you know, saying, oh, it was vanilla, but then it got really kinky. And these

809
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:37,280
are all the things that he liked, like he liked to hold me down. He liked to blindfold me. Yeah,

810
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:42,400
just talk shit about the guy that you murdered. He often called her boy during sexual encounters

811
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:47,360
and had a sexual desire to control Ezra and wanted her to act as a young boy in his own

812
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:53,200
sick fantasies. This is a fucking story. So she's essentially saying, oh, yeah, I kind of identified

813
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:59,360
as masculine, but he's the one that really wanted me to be a boy. Mm-hmm. Furthermore, her size alone

814
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:04,080
made her a victim as she was only five to and 110 pounds at the time of the crime. And therefore,

815
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:09,920
she could not have felt in control when these sexual acts occurred, let alone in this car.

816
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:14,800
This is all her defense. This is her defense. The prosecution maintained that it was a thought

817
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:19,440
out premeditated plan to kill Alex, bringing the knife with her and not telling Jason ever plans

818
01:09:19,440 --> 01:09:24,960
to be in town as an alibi. Yeah, for sure. Furthermore, experts testified that Ezra's wounds

819
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:32,560
and torn clothing were all self inflicted. Yep. Ezra would have eventually admit to cutting

820
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:37,040
herself because she was so distraught after stabbing Alex that she needed to cut herself to

821
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:43,440
feel relief. In the, you're carving letters into your arm. Boy. No, that was absolutely

822
01:09:43,440 --> 01:09:48,000
premeditated. Yeah. If you wanted to plane out. Sorry. So distraught that you wanted to harm

823
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:53,520
yourself, you wouldn't carve a word into your body. Right. And it wouldn't be a word like, boy,

824
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,080
it might be something different if it was a word. And it was very superficial. And I'm not saying

825
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:02,960
that people that don't self-harm in that manner don't create superficial wounds. Yeah, for sure.

826
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:10,080
I'm just saying that it was, the letters were so precise that you would have to stay still for it.

827
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,080
You couldn't, it's not something that would happen during a struggle. Yeah. The wounds were

828
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:18,080
not deep is what I'm saying. If you were trying to get at someone with a knife to carve something

829
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:24,720
into their arms, you probably cut them kind of deep. Yeah. So the jury did not buy that she was,

830
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:33,040
that she wasn't trying to frame Alex for his own murder. Yeah. On November 19th, 2019, Ezra

831
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,840
McCandless was found guilty of first degree murder and sentenced to life without, with the possibility

832
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:46,320
of parole, after 50 years. Ezra almost immediately cut her hair off after her conviction. She is

833
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:54,160
currently housed in the Techeida, Techeida? Techeida? Techeida. Techeida Correctional, Correctional

834
01:10:54,160 --> 01:11:03,040
Institutions. Jesus. And I think it's Fond de Lac, Fond de Lac, Wisconsin. Hmm. Sounds like friendship

835
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:11,680
there. Probably mispronounced all of that. Sorry y'all. Techeida? Techeida Correctional

836
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,880
Institutions in Fond de Lac, Wisconsin. There you go. Let us know. Email us. Yeah. And let me know

837
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:22,480
if you like that accent or that voice. Whatever that is. We love that old man voice. That's what

838
01:11:22,480 --> 01:11:27,680
reminds me when Don Siple, the man, the 90 year old man that was on that, oh my gosh, a dairy farmer,

839
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:32,400
he lived his whole life on that farm. Good friend. When he was a little baby. That was his parents

840
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:39,040
place. And then his daughter had a house next to him and they shared a driveway and he was,

841
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:44,560
yes, oh my gosh. And wait, he was like, oh, Don Siple, you know, like the way he talked with

842
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:51,680
a little dairy farmer. And then at one point, I think it's the, is it the defense attorney? I

843
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:57,760
think it's the defense, oh no, it's the prosecuting attorney. He asks something to Don Siple and he

844
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:03,440
is, Don just, he smiles and he knobs his head and he's like, did you hear me, sir? And he's like,

845
01:12:03,440 --> 01:12:11,360
oh no, I'm sorry, what'd you say? It's just a green. It was so cute. He's adorable. Oh, to be a 90 year

846
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:17,680
old dairy farmer. But then, oh my gosh, like to go through that at 90. Like this girl who's, I mean,

847
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:22,960
and there's, if anybody wants to hear it, I did not include the 911 call because there's a lot of

848
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:28,480
just, I would have to edit it down. There's just a lot of extra, like he's like, oh, is someone

849
01:12:28,480 --> 01:12:32,240
still working today to the dispatcher? Oh my gosh, I love that. And the dispatcher was like, oh no,

850
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,720
they're not working today. He's like, oh, okay, like, that's a bummer. Anyway, this girl's bleeding

851
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:42,720
on my front porch. But you can tell, like he's trying to find the normalcy in something at the

852
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:48,640
moment because he was very distraught. She couldn't articulate what her name was. Ornia says she's

853
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:57,440
covered in mud and blood. Her toes are completely torn. So it's just he's trying to help but also,

854
01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:03,680
you know, yeah, it was really sweet. It's funny. Ezra's conflicts within herself considering her

855
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:08,960
gender may have affected Ezra's overall mental health. According to the Mayo Clinic, gender

856
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:13,840
dysphoria might cause adolescents and adults to experience a marked difference between inner

857
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:19,200
gender identity and assigned gender that lasts for at least six months, which this whole time,

858
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:25,360
you know, had she identified as male using he, him pronouns in high school or right out of high

859
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:31,280
school, that would be this entire six, seven months that this occurred. The difference is shown by

860
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:37,680
at least two of the following. A difference between gender identity and genitals or secondary sex

861
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:43,200
characteristics such as breast size, voice and facial hair. In young adolescents, a difference

862
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:48,880
between gender identity and anticipated secondary sex characteristics, a strong desire to be rid

863
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:53,840
of these genitals or secondary sex characteristics or a desire to prevent the development of secondary

864
01:13:53,840 --> 01:14:00,160
sex characteristics, a strong desire to have genitals and secondary sex characteristics of

865
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:06,160
another gender, a strong desire to be or to be treated as another gender, and a strong belief

866
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:11,520
of having the typical feelings and reactions of another gender. Gender dysphoria may also cause

867
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:16,800
significant distress that affects how you function in social situations at work or at school or other

868
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:22,480
areas of your life. Gender dysphoria might start in childhood and continue into adulthood and

869
01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:27,360
adolescence, I'm sorry, adolescence and adulthood, or you might have periods in which you no longer

870
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:31,840
experience gender dysphoria. You might also experience gender dysphoria around the time

871
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:37,120
of puberty or much later in life. Comorbidities to gender dysphoria can include but are not limited

872
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:43,440
to depression and anxiety, suicide related events, eating disorders, and substance abuse or various

873
01:14:43,440 --> 01:14:49,120
addictions. In my opinion, I feel like maybe Ezra's need for attention related to her wanting to feel

874
01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:59,040
attracted by her identifying gender. I feel like she maybe found a lot of gratification or satisfaction

875
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:08,560
in being liked or attracted to while she was more masculine presenting. I think because of a lot of

876
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:15,120
the men in her life being that domineering figure, she might have felt like, oh, well, I can identify

877
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:20,480
as male and maybe I'll get that same gratification that they seem to have. Right, yeah, and I do

878
01:15:20,480 --> 01:15:25,040
agree with that too. Especially with Jason, she could not let go of Jason. It was a 13 year

879
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:32,560
age gap. I feel like maybe, you know, and I hate using this term like daddy issues, right? I mean,

880
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:37,840
the thing is, is that there is a missing parental link there. And I think that with Jason, he

881
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:43,840
fulfilled some of those things being a provider to her. And like I said, I do also feel like it is

882
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:52,560
linked to maybe a gender dysphoria of some kind where she felt like being representative of something

883
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:57,200
more masculine or somebody more masculine and being accepted by someone that she feels like

884
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:04,480
is a father figure. I feel like that was a win-win for her. Asra McCannless has since petitioned

885
01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:09,920
for a new trial, claiming that there is one very big point that she never brought up during her trial.

886
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:16,640
It was a lifelong secret for her that she was a victim of sexual abuse her whole life. And the

887
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:23,440
abuse had only discontinued a few months before her relationships with Alex and Jason. She claimed

888
01:16:23,440 --> 01:16:29,840
that Alex's death is the result of unwanted advances and Asra blacked out from a PTSD episode.

889
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:35,760
She has not yet named her sexual assailant. I think it's just so hard in a situation like this

890
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:40,640
because once again, like you always want to believe somebody when they claim that they've been a

891
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:44,960
victim of sexual assault. Right. You don't want to say, no, you weren't a victim of that. I mean,

892
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:50,400
that never happened because then you're just like adding fuel to the fire. However, it's hard in this

893
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:57,520
situation because there's been seemingly all these instances where it's been suggested that she's

894
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:02,160
been sexually assaulted and the perpetrator or evidence just doesn't line up with that being the

895
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:09,040
case. Right. As far as her being sexually assaulted as a child and being raised, who knows? She's the

896
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:13,600
only one that knows that if she was, the perpetrator is the only other person that knows that, you

897
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:19,440
know, but until she names somebody and there's someone that potentially comes forward, which

898
01:17:19,440 --> 01:17:24,400
who's going to admit that they did that? Honestly. Yeah. Then we really just don't know. Yeah. I

899
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,320
think that I think you're right in that. I think that she can say that, but they would absolutely

900
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:35,280
have to be some evidence that this is something that is a pattern for her that she was sexually

901
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:40,480
abused as a young person. And again, this is not my opinion. This is something that would

902
01:17:40,480 --> 01:17:46,960
only hold up in court is that there's evidence that that had occurred and that there was continued

903
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:54,480
evidence that she was assaulted by, and John might not even pertain to the story, right,

904
01:17:54,480 --> 01:18:01,440
if there's no evidence there. But as far as the trial that Alex had intentions of harming Ezra

905
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:08,720
and taking advantage of her sexually, and there were things throughout the trial,

906
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:18,320
Alex Woodruff's own words when, because he was a philosopher, he wrote a lot. And there were a lot

907
01:18:18,320 --> 01:18:27,040
of writings that they chose to dissect, seemingly trying to implicate Alex as being a perverse person.

908
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:34,480
Me personally, I had no biases when I began watching it because that was my understanding

909
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:38,560
of the case before I even started researching it, that she had been abused or sexually assaulted

910
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:47,280
by someone throughout this case. And I didn't really know the history of her and Alex. But

911
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:52,400
reading back, I'm like, I really don't see that in those writings. I really don't. It's very

912
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:57,840
objective, subjective. And it just, it didn't, he didn't strike me as that kind of person. He had

913
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:02,640
a lot of future goals for himself. And again, not to say that people that don't have future goals

914
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:07,280
for themselves can't be perpetrators of these crimes. But it definitely seemed like Alex

915
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:14,080
fell in love with Ezra. Ezra did not love Alex. I think that she got something out of that relationship

916
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:18,240
that she didn't get from Jason. And she was terrified to lose Jason more than anything.

917
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:22,800
And she said, like, I'm happy to just break things off with Alex. And her mind, it might have meant,

918
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:31,520
like, get rid of Alex. Yeah. Yeah, I think that she just really, I don't know if she necessarily,

919
01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:38,320
okay, so that again, the guy that I watched the whole trial, that the prosecution said that knife,

920
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,960
the defense said that knife has been in her car for forever because it's a utility knife. Yeah.

921
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:48,640
The prosecution said she just put that knife in her car the day before. So, you know, which is it,

922
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:55,360
we don't really know. We don't really know. But do I think that as we're started out the day,

923
01:19:55,360 --> 01:20:02,960
wanting to kill Alex, I don't really know. But the fact of the matter is, does it happen? It

924
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:08,480
happened in a very gruesome way. And that she withheld that information. If it was self defense,

925
01:20:08,480 --> 01:20:13,200
why wouldn't she tell Don Cipoll, please, I stabbed someone because, you know, I'm trying to escape

926
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:18,160
someone and they're coming after me. And she claimed that she didn't know where she was or

927
01:20:18,160 --> 01:20:21,520
what had happened and all this other stuff. And they didn't find Alex until the next day.

928
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:28,320
Who knows, it might have been, you know, she, I mean, the coming to town unexpectedly and having

929
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:34,480
the note on her passenger seat are both red flags for me. It might have been that she was gonna go

930
01:20:34,480 --> 01:20:40,240
and engage in sexual activity with Alex and then try to say that he assaulted her. And maybe she

931
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:45,760
started like a physical altercation so that he would leave marks on her. And when he wasn't reciprocating,

932
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:51,040
she was like, well, shit, what do I do? Yeah, I've tried to now frame him and he knows, you know,

933
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:55,200
now she puts herself in this situation where she's like, well, there's already a knife here,

934
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:58,800
you know, what else am I gonna, whatever? I don't know. I don't know what she was thinking. None of

935
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:05,120
a stupe is that's her. I think that me personally, okay, like if I was gonna build this, this whole

936
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:09,680
day, right? I think that she lied to Jason about going to Eau Claire. I think that she knew she

937
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,760
was gonna do that. It was not an impulse thing. Yeah, I think that she went with the intention

938
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:19,680
to meet up with Alex at some point. I think that with Jason showing up at Alex's,

939
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:27,280
and then Ezra hearing that ringtone, she was like, oh, I have to make up a reason why I'm at Alex's

940
01:21:27,280 --> 01:21:31,200
or whatever. Again, I don't know why the car was idling. I'm not entirely sure on that. Maybe she

941
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:38,000
didn't intend to just run inside. But I think the fact that like, Jason was there and I'm not saying

942
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:43,920
this is Jason's fault. Nothing. The only person who's faulted is Ezra, that Alex is dead. But I

943
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,680
think Jason's presence there, I think she realized shit, like, I'm not gonna be able to get out of

944
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:51,360
this. Every time I come to Alex's, Jason's gonna swing by. Like, there's no way out of this.

945
01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:57,280
I think the reason that Alex is in the backseat is because Ezra coarsed him into getting into

946
01:21:57,280 --> 01:22:02,880
the backseat. To have sex. To probably have sex. And then get his guard down and then attack him.

947
01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:08,240
And what happened in between that, I don't know. Yeah, it's just a wild story. When I said earlier

948
01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:13,280
that I had thought that the name sounded familiar, I was thinking for some reason, which this wouldn't

949
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:18,720
make sense. But the girl at the Cesar Hotel that was found in the water tower, was it her name,

950
01:22:18,720 --> 01:22:23,760
Ezra? No, her name was Elisa. Okay, Elisa Lam. I was thinking and I was like, that wouldn't make

951
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:28,880
sense because she obviously is not a murderer. But yeah, that was a good one though. I've never

952
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:34,400
heard that story and I didn't realize how recent it was either. I know sometimes we say, not to say

953
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:39,040
this or not not to say this, but that sometimes we're like, oh, I hate saying, I can't like,

954
01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:44,480
so why that's over? Never want to think about it again. But I mean, just a heavy case. It is.

955
01:22:44,480 --> 01:22:50,080
She was so young or is so young. I mean, she she fucked up her whole life. Yeah. I mean,

956
01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:55,040
she's not gonna be out until she 70. You know, she makes it that long. I mean, who knows anything

957
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:59,360
can happen. I think that the moral of the story is that Jason Mangel is a hero. Yeah, I know.

958
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:03,520
Actually, I'm really glad that he's okay. Not that I'm happy that anyone got hurt. No, no, of

959
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:09,440
course. I mean, definitely feel really, really poorly for Alex, you know, like that shitty

960
01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:14,000
situation. And it's really unfortunate that anybody got hurt, you know, in the situation.

961
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:18,320
And especially with someone like mental illness wise, I mean, I know you kind of talked about

962
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:23,040
gender dysphoria and like maybe depression. Gender dysphoria, I think you maybe, you know,

963
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:28,160
have said in the past, certain onsets for personality disorders. Yeah, that's true.

964
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:35,440
I think that Ezra's need and craving for attention is a huge motivator and that can be a borderline

965
01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:42,160
personality or or even a dependent personality disorder. It's true. Yeah. And and her need to

966
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:47,600
want to be right all of the time and escape in situations where she's not right. Yeah.

967
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:53,760
Instead of talking it out. And like I said, one of those common abilities for gender dysphoria

968
01:23:53,760 --> 01:24:01,200
is addiction. And that can be a sexual addiction or attention attention to addiction. And so I

969
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:05,680
also think that maybe there's some some of that going on there for sure. Yeah, that's just my

970
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:10,640
opinion, though. I'm not licensed to diagnose. Well, good case. Thank you guys for joining us.

971
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:18,240
We profusely apologize about the the beginning of the beginning. We're very, very critical of how

972
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:23,440
we sound. At that point, we had already gotten like 10 minutes in and we were like, we have just

973
01:24:23,440 --> 01:24:30,000
got to keep going. Like we need to get this done. And we hope you guys don't mind hearing that poor

974
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:35,680
editing. I feel so gross about it. It's gonna feel really gross when it posts. I know. But you guys

975
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:41,040
know that we want to bring you the content on time and the best content. And we want to make sure

976
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:45,280
that we're being true to the dates that we set. So that's why we was like, you know what, I don't

977
01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:49,360
think the mind will just go. It's only the first 10 minutes. Yeah, y'all love us. We love you.

978
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:55,440
Yes. Sometimes little snafus happen. Well, thank you guys for joining us. And we will see you on

979
01:24:55,440 --> 01:24:59,600
Monday with another mental breakdown. Yes. All right. Love you. Bye.

980
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:09,840
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981
01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:12,880
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01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:18,480
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01:25:18,480 --> 01:25:24,080
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