Hello!
Welcome back to another episode of Dying, Noticing a Killer, the mental breakdown.
I'm Koal.
And I'm Kenneth.
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I'm going to put that ad in this episode just because of that.
Oh my god.
I was crying.
I was literally crying.
It was so funny.
We have the most fun doing our ads.
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You'll hear it in the middle of this episode somewhere.
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Cool.
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Today we're going to be talking about murder in movies and the obsession of true crime.
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Content warning, we may discuss things that relate to violence and trauma from abuse.
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So we have always been interested in horror and true crime as humans, seemingly since
the introduction of entertainment.
As early as documentation in the 18th century, we have people have found the macabre interesting.
The macabre.
Like when you said macabre.
I still don't know what that means.
The macabre.
It's like dark themed stuff.
Oh, there you go.
Macabre.
The perceived inventor of early horror writings was a man by the name of Horace Walpole.
Although in the 18th century, this genre was called the Gothic genre, not horror.
Horace?
His name is Horace.
It sounds like you're saying Horace very strangely.
Horace.
Are you into Horace?
Horace.
That's a terrible name.
It just sounds like Horace.
I think of Horace and I think of Jasper.
Jasper.
A hundred and one donations.
Horace and Jasper.
You haven't seen it when I was a tyke.
A young tot.
No, not a long time.
I mean, of course I like the Disney one, but I like the live action Disney one with Glenn
Close.
Oh no.
She's also the guy in the Boo Box in Hook.
Yeah, you're speaking a different language.
Yeah, you lost me there.
So his novel, Horace Walpole, his Wobble.
His novel was called Castle of the Entronto, and it was published in 1764 and was one of
the earliest works of what would become the horror genre.
He said about his novel, quote, the castle of Entronto, was an attempt to blend two kinds
of romance, the ancient and the modern.
In the former was all imagination and improbability, and in the latter, nature was always intended
to be and sometimes has been copied with success, end quote.
So this brings about that thought that the crossroads in where reality and imagination
meet can make things feel real, and when they feel real, they feel relatable.
So within the next 60 years, Mary Wallstonecraft Shelly would publish her novel in 1818, which
blended science and goth and would be one of the most famous gothic stories of all time.
Frankenstein.
Oh, yeah.
That's 1818.
Crazy.
So this novel further defined the gothic genre and introduced the world to the more specific
genre of horror.
Edgar Allen Poe's work furthered this idea of gothic horror with his poems, often writing
about paranormal experiences with ghosts, being buried alive, and even describing scenes
of decomposition.
He was a very disturbed person.
I think he was cool.
Nevermore.
Bram Stoker gave the world Dracula in 1887, and with it introduced sexuality and tandem
with horror, even straddling the line of heteronormativity.
By the 1930s, we had supernatural horror novels by H.P. Lovecraft, and by 1970, we had Stephen
King's Carrie.
And of course, Stephen King is an author who still writes horror and supernatural genres
today.
But why do we love horror?
Most psychologists believe that the reason we enjoy watching and reading horror so much
is that we as humans have a natural response to threats evolutionarily.
We have a fight-or-flight response programmed into our brains for survival.
According to psychologytools.com, the fight-or-flight response is defined as a, quote, response
that is an automatic physiological reaction to an event that is perceived as stressful
or frightening.
The perception of threat activates the sympathetic nerve system and triggers an acute stress
response that prepares the body to fight or flee.
These responses are evolutionary adaptations to increased chances of survival in threatening
situations, end quote, thanks, Coda.
The article goes on to state, quote, the fight-or-flight response was originally described by American
physiologist Walter Bradford Cannon in the book Bottley Changes in Pain, Hunger, Fear,
and Rage, which he published in 1915.
He noted that when animals are threatened by exposure to a predator, for example, their
bodies release the hormone adrenaline or epinephrine, which would lead to the series of bodily changes,
including increased heart rate and respiration.
The consequences of these changes are increased in the flow of oxygen and energy to the muscles.
Cannon's interpretation of this data was that there were emergency functions of these
changes.
He noted that they happen automatically and they serve the function of helping the animal
to survive threatening situations by running the body for fighting or running, end quote.
I feel like that's the same, like, okay, so what I thought you were gonna say is a little
bit different.
When people watch horror or especially true crime, it's kind of similar to when you drive
by a really gnarly car accident, like you can't look away almost, because I feel like
the natural instinct is like, oh, thank God that's not me.
You know what I mean?
And you have to be aware of it so that you don't get into it.
Of course, yeah.
And I think it is a little bit of that too.
It is being more mindful, like you're being mindful and being aware of the situation and
taking it into a certain point where you're thinking, I need to avoid that.
That is danger, you know?
That can't happen to me or won't happen to me, because I'm aware now.
Research suggests that as many as 55% of the population enjoy emulating this response
through horror films, the majority of being male and those who do enjoy horror films tend
to have a slightly lower level of empathy.
Okay, that makes sense, because I hate horror films and my empathy is through the roof.
That's so funny.
That's interesting to me because you enjoy true crime horror films, which we'll talk
about.
They fucking...
Well, I don't like horror films.
The ones that really scare me are the ones that could actually happen.
In my mind.
Like, paranormal activity, shut the fuck up.
I don't like that at all.
It was boring.
It was boring?
It was boring.
It was evil, dead, terrifying, but also kind of unlikely.
But the chainsaw massacre, that could fucking happen.
That's the one you pulled out of me.
And we're just screamed just about as much as that girl at the end.
The last 20 minutes of the movie is just her screaming.
Just remember everybody that Kenna said that because we'll talk about some points here
in a second.
Oh, God.
So epinephrine, which is also adrenaline, is produced in the adrenal gland and can have
addictive properties, and that's where we get the term adrenaline junkies, right?
So it can actually be addictive.
Watching or reading horror content is a way to experience the response, but know that
there's no real perceived threat.
In fact, the Harvard Business Review reported that there are three main pillars that must
exist within oneself in order to enjoy horror media.
No.
Yes.
This is so cool.
Okay.
So, one, you must know that you are physically safe at the moment.
Like you're watching a horror movie at home or at a friend's house in a safe space.
In a bed on a couch, yeah.
Number two, you must be able to detach yourself from the content that you're consuming.
So knowing that the living dead aren't real or that Freddy Krueger isn't real.
So you just have to be able to detach yourself.
And number three, you have to believe that you're in control of your content.
Covering your eyes when things are too much or you're anticipating a scary part or just
turning off the TV entirely.
Okay, so that's the thing, like I have all those things and I just don't like horror
films.
I don't know.
Maybe it is the control.
Maybe you feel out of control.
Well, I think it also stems from my childhood.
I'll tell you why.
It seems to a lot of horrors.
The thing that scares me the most about horror films are the pop-ups.
Like when something pops out, that scares me the most.
The jump scares?
The jump scares, yeah.
So I'm like, like, oh my god, it's true.
I used to terrify you all the time when you were little and you would jump out of places.
Yeah, you bitches.
Have you seen Insidious?
Yeah.
Okay, when they're at the kitchen table and it goes between like her face and then his
face and then her face and then it's his face with the guys right behind him.
Oh my god.
Is that the tiny Tim tiptoe to do the tulips or is that?
Yes, that's it.
That's it.
That one's awful.
I can't.
I always confuse Insidious and what's the one with the, not the dibbick.
Oh god, I still have.
The, not the baguille.
Is it the baguille?
The one that seals the children?
Oh, I don't know.
I think it is with Ethan Hawke.
No, yeah, I look at him and watch Insidious.
I wouldn't have watched that.
It was like a small content warning because we didn't talk about this at the beginning
of the episode, but it's got a bunch of children that kill themselves and they videotape or
they kill their family and then themselves or something.
But the baguille, every time, like it'll pan over and it's like an old 35 millimeter
like film, like the video is.
And it's every time, I was going to get nightmares.
I can't, like you can see behind me.
I can't.
You have a wall behind you.
I have an open door.
Yeah.
I'm scared.
Every once in a while I'll just look past, kind of, it kind of goes, stop, stop, stop,
stop.
Stop, stop, stop.
But yeah, it'll pan over and it's the baguille and he just, nobody can see me do this, but
he has his back turned and then he'll just slowly turn his head.
Fuck.
Into the, oh my God, you have to see it.
It's terrifying.
No, thanks.
I'll pass on that.
Thank you.
But it says, you can see that sense of, I don't know, just out of control.
It's just like you can't, but maybe that's what it is because sometimes I don't like watching
horror movies if I'm not in the mood.
It's out of control for sure.
Yeah.
I can't control what's going to happen.
Yeah, exactly.
Especially if I haven't seen it before.
That was like the OG full body heaps though back then.
I was getting scared of movies.
Like, OG full body heaps.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Full body heaps.
I don't know.
So if one of these things are not in play, you risk the, you essentially run the risk
of being overly stimulated by the content and therefore creating a lasting impression.
Yeah.
Which happened.
So my, okay.
I understand that people really like the moth man and especially when he's drawn tiny
and cute, okay?
Everybody loves the moth man.
He scares me to the point to where I'm uncomfortable talking about him right now because I feel
like he's going to hear me and then he's going to show up in my sink in the middle
of the night and it's not going to be nice.
It's not going to be nice.
So for me, it's more of the threat of the unknown because again, it's out of control,
right?
Seriously, that's one that gave me a lasting impression.
And according to some studies, you may even experience or develop a similar response to
the effects of PTSD.
Yeah, I don't, I mean, yeah.
You just placed the blame on you because now all I can think about is you and Cameron
scaring me every chance you got when I was little.
Hiding in my closet like psychos.
God.
Now that makes sense.
We gave you the jump scare PTSD.
And now I don't watch horror films.
No, I can't watch horror movies.
Of course, it is not just a fight or flight response that makes us addicted to things
like horror films.
It can be the complexity of the puzzles that are being presented like in Saw or characters
that are charismatic that we would, so charismatic that we would love to hate them like Chucky.
Sometimes it's wanting to be a part of a legacy like the Friday the 13th franchise or maybe
even interesting twists like in Night Shyamalan movies.
We love to chat about the latest scariest film of the year and it creates a community
type feeling around them.
And in fact, horror films are popular date ideas as we adrenaline rush and perceived
threat can be a subconscious bonding experience between two people.
Yeah, I mean, in case you both hate horror films.
That's not pretty.
Gotta watch World War Two in color.
That's me.
Casey's, yeah, he's like a Western movie person and I'm like romcom or like just a
comedy or like a drama.
We're just Grey's Anatomy.
We're just Grey's Anatomy, which I'm bingeing.
I want the shooting episode right now.
Oh no, at the hospital with the, oh my gosh.
That is a great episode.
I pause that episode to come talk to you guys.
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So in parallel to the enjoyment of horror content, True Crime has long fascinated the
greater public for very similar reasons.
So who isn't talking about Gypsy Rose right now?
We've created an entire community around her in the last few weeks.
Joni Arias was a woman who everyone wanted to know more about and the character she portrayed
and she was a puzzling woman.
True Crime stories can sometimes have more twists and turns than the latest M. Night
Shyamalan movie.
And with the wildest part about all of this is, is that it is real.
It is real and you can't make that shit up.
You can't make that shit up?
Like no one's that creative.
You can't make that shit up.
So then I'll ask you, why are you scared of horror films but not True Crime necessarily?
I actually don't know.
I think because, well if you want my honest answer, which I'm not gonna lie obviously,
but I think it's because I know that I researched True Crime for a purpose.
Watching horror films does nothing for me educationally in my opinion, educationally
or in the future.
Researching True Crime puts me one step closer to preventing it from happening.
I love that answer.
That's why I think I'm so interested in it because I want to know what's going on and
how can we fix it.
Absolutely, on the nose.
So True Crime can become a cautionary tale or contain introspective properties that allow
us to look at ourselves and others around us more closely.
The fight or flight response still resonates within us when we're watching and listening
to True Crime stories.
However, something even deeper happens instinctually.
We are learning in real time how to spot signs of mistrust and deception or personality
traits in someone that we don't want to associate, all with the intention to protect ourselves
and those around us.
And you're learning twice as much if you listen to our podcast because we talk about
the psychology.
We're doing it right now, just to see.
We're already here, okay, we're sold.
Also in this scenario, there is an array of characters.
We have the protagonist, typically a victim of the crime who is seemingly forgiven for
all indiscretions prior to the crime for the sake of the story.
We don't typically talk about any, especially on Dateline or 48 hours.
They always talk about the victim in such a lovely light, right?
This is our protagonist.
We don't want to harm this person.
This person's a good person.
Yeah, sorry, that just makes me think of John Mulaney when he's like, you ever go to the
newsstand and you see this photo and it's like beauty slain and you look at the picture
and you're like, beauty?
It's like, how about body found?
That's right.
So bad.
So mean.
So bad.
And of course, I am not talking about any specific case here.
This is just the way that things are written for us to be able to consume.
Yeah, for sure.
But it's very true.
I think the best things about people when they have passed or they are a victim of something,
which of course, I would want people to do about me, of course.
But it just, it's easy to gloss over maybe something that that person did to might be
in that situation, of course.
And I absolutely do not want to discredit or not discredit, but this isn't every case,
of course.
We have seen and read stories of predominantly like the sex work community.
These people or these women or people were villainized because of what they did and therefore
they deserved to be killed.
And we've definitely seen stories like that.
For sure.
We're not victim blaming at all.
No.
But it makes sense that you would want to, like you said, protect that person's image
and only talk about the good things that they did when they were here.
Correct.
It just, it makes for a stronger story, even in true crime.
The antagonist or the perpetrator who is looked at under a microscope and judged without
merit, regardless of the impending crime, is wrong from the conception of the story.
So from the very beginning, this person is troubled, this person had a bad life, you
know, this is the antagonist and one day they will meet and then something terrible happens.
It's written the same way every time almost.
Which I think is the unfortunate part about some podcasts and I'm not saying that everybody
has to do the same angle that we have.
I get that's what sets us apart from other people.
But like I've said before, like they gloss over problems like that because they only
want to see this person as a piece of shit, someone that did this heinous crime, but you're
not looking at the childhood and the trauma and abuse they went through.
Again, not excusing what they did.
Of course, they don't deserve to be a free person if they've done something like that.
But when you just look at the crime and you don't look at what caused it, yeah, it's
easy to really hate that person.
Exactly.
And it becomes very...
It becomes very black and white.
Exactly.
And I think that you and I do a really good job of shedding light on the people that are
the perpetrator's children.
Again, without excusing what they did.
Making it people aware of what they went through.
And almost like, I mean, there's been cases where I'm like, yeah, I kind of feel bad for
that person, you know, even though they were the perpetrator, kind of in bad form, you
know, in certain instances.
And that's exactly what we're talking about right now when we're talking about what keeps
true crime interesting and it is about the knowledge.
It is about learning more.
And if you can learn more about someone's mental state or your own mental state, you
know, that in itself is part of that caution, right?
Yep.
So eventually the side characters influence the two main characters, which can be family,
friends, and the legal system.
We've become invested in these characters as there is a climax to the story.
And after all, we do need to see the final outcome, guilty or not.
All is written in a format that is digestible for the consumer.
Furthermore, when it comes to true crime, we can walk away from the content and feel better
about the knowledge that we've gained, applying it into our own lives and knowing one less
criminal is not walking amongst us.
Yeah, definitely.
One major difference between consuming horror content versus true crime content is that
women tend to enjoy true crime more than men.
Why do you think that is?
Well, I'm sure you're going to tell me and I already know.
Some psychologists theorize that the reason for this is that women are statistically more
likely to experience a violent crime.
So they need to prepare themselves or they feel the need to prepare themselves.
Absolutely.
That by consuming the true crime media, we are better preparing ourselves to recognize
perceived threats.
Furthermore, women who have experienced violence in their lives previously will seek out other
victim stories in order to identify, understand, and even heal their trauma through being exposed
to other victim stories.
Overall, true crime can help us compartmentalize our fears and organize them in a way that
makes sense to us.
Isn't that interesting?
Yeah, I've gotten to the point now where I mean, I don't think I ever, you and I have
talked about this before where like you research a case and then it sticks with you, like you
have dreams about it, you think about it for like the next couple of weeks.
I think, again, not that I don't enjoy educating people on certain cases and not that I don't
enjoy researching and learning more for myself, but I've always treated the research of my
cases like just like a job.
You know, and it's so funny because I'm such an empathetic person and I do get emotionally
attached very often, but there's not really a lot of times where I'm reading a case and
I'm like emotionally distraught.
I'm just like, okay, this is just researching.
You know, just kind of like blink it out.
I don't know how I do that.
I can't even watch fucking Insidious.
You can't watch Insidious.
But that's you, like we said, you dissociate from that.
Yeah, exactly.
You dissociate from it.
And that's your, even though it's real, it's real crimes that happen to real people.
It's not a horror film that was brought on by like a million dollar budget or a few million
dollar budgets, but it's like that's just interesting to me that you're like, you're
kind of the opposite.
Because I definitely feel like it is hard for me to detach myself when I do my research
because, and you know me, and I've said it on the podcast before, but if we have new
listeners, I listen to audio tapes, like actual interviews.
I listen to the interrogations and I listen to the perpetrator's voice.
I listen to the victim's voices and that to me, hearing that, and because I'm just
a visual person, I guess, that it puts me in the mindset of this person's life and it's
easier for me to write that way.
Yeah.
And so-
I don't listen, I don't watch documentaries.
If a documentary is the only thing available and there's not a lot online, of course I'll
watch it.
I just do strictly like internet research.
I don't watch, I don't watch.
I listen to that person's like right now I'm on, I've said it before, CourtTV.com, listening
to old cases.
I was listening to the Menendez case just last week and listening to them on the stand.
I mean this is like six to seven hours over the course of a few days.
Everybody was obsessed with Johnny and Amber.
It was like that.
Every day you came home and you watched the trial and that's the way that it is with me,
but I'm writing about it as I'm listening to them because it just puts me in a certain
headspace that I need to be in.
See, I feel like I get too distracted.
I would just watch the documentary and not write anything down.
Yeah.
I would just wait, hold on, whatever happened this whole like last week.
No, I'll do that and I'll be like oh my gosh, that's like an interesting little fact.
Let me back that up and do it.
Although I will say I was doing research yesterday for my next case and I had to close my laptop
at one point because I got so nauseous.
Oh really?
Yeah, it was bad.
Oh my gosh.
I was like okay, I'm gonna turn it in for the night.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna do that.
Yeah.
So consuming true crime media is not always the healthiest choice.
One of the more concerning effects over the consuming of true crime is that we can create
prejudice around certain groups of people, especially when the story contains minority
characters.
Although this prejudice can be related to any race, gender, or identity of course.
Prejudice gained over exposure to true crime media can creep into the legal system and
create unfair biases and juries.
Some may even consider themselves as experts in the science of crime scenes, almost like
backseat forensics, which is hilarious.
Most often forensics and criminal trials can be confusing and conflicting, so it's
very important that a juror listen to all of the evidence presented in order to make
a sound verdict and not use your memory from that one trial that you saw in that one case
from 48 hours.
Yeah.
Oh this is so similar.
Each case can be completely different.
Absolutely.
We also need to consider that while true crime is entertaining, it also has a tendency to
sensationalize, glorify, and even sexualize perpetrators of crimes.
Ted Bundy became notorious, not just for the 36 or more suspected murder and rape victims
of his, but for being an above average hottie, especially when Zac Efron played him in the
Netflix series Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil, and Vile.
The internet blew up with pictures of Ted Bundy with hearts around his portrait, with
one user even posting quote, I know he's a murderer, but can we say Ted Bundy is hot?
Right?
I mean, Efron is gonna play him.
I feel like that's okay, end quote.
Yeah, that's totally fine.
You do you.
Go stand outside the prison with your wig.
With your wig.
What is that, Karen from Mean Girls?
Like then you have your cousins, and then you have your first cousins, and then you have
your second cousins.
Right?
No, honey, that's so not right.
But we somewhere along the way forget that this murderer violated a woman so brutally
with a metal rod, it caused her internal organs to burst.
Yeah, that's disgusting.
It's awful.
But he's hot.
Zac Efron played him.
First of all, he's not even hot because he's a fucking murderer.
Yeah, he's just a murderer.
They had even people writing Jeffrey Dahmer, even though Jeffrey Dahmer was an openly gay
man, there was women writing to him.
But speaking of that, I looked up, not looked up, but I saw recently, like Evan Peters went
through like some shit after he played him in that series.
Like he started to like mentally decline.
He was me.
Yeah, well no, I mean he researched too hard.
He had to like almost like a Heath Ledger and like the Joker or not Joker, what I'm thinking
of.
Yeah, yeah, the Joker.
Yeah, like a lot of character or actors I get so far into their character.
Exactly.
And he was like, I kind of lost it there for a little bit.
Jim Carrey and Andy Kaufman, did you ever see that documentary?
You would like that.
I've seen it before.
Jim and Andy.
Oh my gosh.
And he was, he was Andy Kaufman.
I forget what article I read recently, but there was a celebrity that felt really robbed
because they were going to go see Jim Carrey on set and they didn't meet Jim Carrey, they
met Andy Kaufman and it was their only time ever being exposed to Jim Carrey and they
said that they were pretty pissed off about it.
Yeah, I would be too.
It's really scary, like, I mean that happens, you know.
You just lose yourself.
You do.
You better lose yourself in the music the moment you own it.
Hybristophilia, which is a paraphilic disorder.
We talked about this on the lady episode that I did.
Yes.
So what they have is going to piggyback off that, that it's a paraphilic disorder where
one is interested or sexually aroused by someone who commits crime and it is often seen
as the culprit in cases like this with people being obsessed with bunny.
And yes, Lady of the Scaring Us did a whole episode on that, so check that out.
Yeah, I was actually, yeah, I was a guest host on Lady of the Scaring Us for that episode.
I talked about it already, but when Hillary asked me, do you know what Hybristophilia
is?
I said no, I knew what it was, I knew that word but I couldn't put them together and
I was like, oh, I feel silly.
I was like, okay, well I knew what that was, but yes, it's just, it's wild.
This attraction is somewhat understood when this is the very nature of true crime and
horror in general, dating back to even Dracula, which was previously mentioned, that it bordered
this kind of sexual thing, the perpetrator in sex.
We have the pillars that indicate we remove ourselves from the brutality of crimes, perpetrators
like Bundy commit because let's face it.
We likely and hopefully will not experience the horrific circumstances that these women
went through and therefore we can detach.
We are likely physically safe watching these horrors from the comfort of our bed or a couch
at home.
And if you're in control of the content, you can easily turn off the television or turn
your head or fast forward.
Again, overexposure to true crime isn't always the healthiest choice.
Oversaturation may result in becoming increasingly paranoid, checking to see if your doors are
locked multiple times in the night.
Who does that?
Kenner.
Not being able to sleep and being overly weary of others, much to the point to where
people start isolating themselves.
So be vigilant if you're like us and true crime becomes your life, take a break every
once in a while, watch something else, also known as palette cleansers like puppy videos
or kitten videos.
Take a walk and spend some time with close friends and integrate back into society a
bridge troll.
That's it.
That was good.
I like that.
I was just going to say, just adding on to what you were just saying about, you know,
people becoming hyper-aware and, you know, yes, it's likely that it will not happen to
us, but you never know.
Every day is going to be different.
You never know what's going to happen.
That's why we try to be as extra sincere and very sensitive as we can when we do bring
topics like true crime cases and especially when it comes to the victims.
We always want to make sure that we are advocating for the victims, obviously advocating for
mental health awareness.
Not victim blaming everything like that because you don't know who is somebody that has experienced
something like that or maybe they have a close friend of theirs or something.
So true.
So just a reminder to always be aware of your surroundings, aware of what you're saying
and how it can affect other people.
Of course.
I think that I wouldn't say that a lot of the stuff that we carried or covered today
is self-explanatory.
I definitely don't want people to feel that way that it's like, you know, we can get back
to the basics and talk about why people are interested in true crime and not just talk
about true crime and not know why we're doing this or have any purpose or any of that other
stuff.
So again, what might seem like self-explanatory probably kind of isn't to a lot of people
and they don't understand why they enjoy that stuff and maybe feel even a little guilty
that they enjoy that stuff.
All of it is a very real thing that was integrated into our brains a long time ago and it is
part of our evolutionary process as a society as well.
These things are talked about so that people are aware.
Exactly.
And that's, I mean, one of our main goals we say it all the time is to educate, you
know.
And if you learn one thing on our podcast and we're doing our job, we definitely want to
be that outlet of people that can not only enjoy the true crime aspect of everything
and enjoy just hanging out with us, you know, because we're funny and we're hilarious and
we're friends, but also educating yourself as well.
You know.
Exactly.
I do just want to say one more thing before we go unless you have anything else.
Yeah, after you.
Oh, okay, sure.
Yeah, we had another review and writing on Apple Podcast.
I saw it today, which is really nice.
So someone by the name of Sam said, really good as the subject, not only are these ladies
smart and the podcast is well researched with honest empathy, they are hilarious.
I find myself laughing a lot.
Thanks Sam.
Thanks Sam, we really appreciate it.
We try really hard to not take ourselves so seriously, but also, of course, the content
is serious.
So we need to kind of get like a little leveled out with the seriousness and the humor, but
I'm glad that it's a good little mix for you.
Yeah.
And thanks for the review.
It helps us.
Yes, absolutely.
The only thing I have left to say is heat, eat and bon appetit.
If I don't see you.
And if I don't see you.
Good evening, good night.
All right.
I think that's it.
See you guys next time.
Love you.
Bye.
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